On 5/18/2022 1:46 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:32:48 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Op woensdag 18 mei 2022 om 02:02:10 UTC+2 schreef russell...@yahoo.com:
>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 10:45:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:03:01 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 10:11 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'capitalism' is a pejorative term invented by Karl Marx.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Among his many errors, Marx' fixation on capital ignored the other
>>>>>> more significant input which is human ingenuity and incentive for
>>>>>> continued improvement in all ventures. The best examples are the poverty
>>>>>> where freedom and incentive are lacking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A more descriptive term is 'free market' where liberty, property rights,
>>>>>> especially intellectual property, and risk/reward are unfettered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That does _not_ describe my country at all. We're now some socialist
>>>>>> declining mess, a 'directed economy' as the Planners claim, with more
>>>>>> regulation and so less hope year over year.
>>>>> Are there countries whose economic system you like? What are they? What
>>>>> are the differences with ours?
>>>>>
>>>> It would be the 'leave me alone' economy I think. Everyone should take care of himself.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>> Lou, you live in the Netherlands? That country with billions of dollars of dikes and other water management systems. To prevent half or more of the country from being a swamp, lake, flooded, below sea level. Who did all of these projects? Individuals? Each landowner by himself? I doubt it. I believe the Government did everything. Yes the people paid for it eventually over time. But the government did the projects collectively for everyone to benefit. Socialism at its finest. Help your neighbor, everyone, to benefit all. No "alone", no "himself" to it.
>> I was answering Franks question what economy/government Mr. Muzi would prefer.
>> I was guessing based on Andrewks posts here that everything the government does is inefficient and corrupt and we have to leave most things to the privat sector exept the military. That is not my idea.
>>
>> Lou
>
> OK. I misread your post. You were answering Frank's question of Andy with what he might/would say. Not answering for yourself and the Netherlands. For Andy my response would be something like this. You are in Madison Wisconsin. Your bike shop. Madison is a metropolis because the government funded, provided, University of Wisconsin is there. Otherwise, Madison would be a nothing town. So your bike shop owes all of its existence to government provided services. Something like that. Although I may be off a bit with my analogy. Everyone is interconnected whether we want to be or not.
>

We are not. It's been nine years now.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/18/2022 8:21 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/18/2022 12:32 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> Op woensdag 18 mei 2022 om 02:02:10 UTC+2 schreef
>> russellseaton1@yahoo.com:
>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 10:45:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:03:01 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 10:11 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'capitalism' is a pejorative term invented by Karl Marx.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Among his many errors, Marx' fixation on capital ignored the other
>>>>>> more significant input which is human ingenuity and incentive for
>>>>>> continued improvement in all ventures. The best examples are the
>>>>>> poverty
>>>>>> where freedom and incentive are lacking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A more descriptive term is 'free market' where liberty, property
>>>>>> rights,
>>>>>> especially intellectual property, and risk/reward are unfettered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That does _not_ describe my country at all. We're now some socialist
>>>>>> declining mess, a 'directed economy' as the Planners claim, with more
>>>>>> regulation and so less hope year over year.
>>>>> Are there countries whose economic system you like? What are they?
>>>>> What
>>>>> are the differences with ours?
>>>>>
>>>> It would be the 'leave me alone' economy I think. Everyone should
>>>> take care of himself.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>> Lou, you live in the Netherlands? That country with billions of
>>> dollars of dikes and other water management systems. To prevent half
>>> or more of the country from being a swamp, lake, flooded, below sea
>>> level. Who did all of these projects? Individuals? Each landowner by
>>> himself? I doubt it. I believe the Government did everything. Yes the
>>> people paid for it eventually over time. But the government did the
>>> projects collectively for everyone to benefit. Socialism at its
>>> finest. Help your neighbor, everyone, to benefit all. No "alone", no
>>> "himself" to it.
>> I was answering Franks question what economy/government Mr. Muzi would
>> prefer.
>> I was guessing based on Andrewks posts here that everything the
>> government does is inefficient and corrupt and we have to leave most
>> things to the privat sector exept the military. That is not my idea.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>
> I'm not completely rigid but my usual question, 'name something the
> government does efficiently and well' gets that thousand-mile stare...

I suspect if given dozens of examples, you would dispute that any were
done efficiently, or done well.

But FWIW, we had new friends visiting in our backyard last night. A
significant amount of conversation was on the theme of how nice it is to
live here. Much of that praise was due to government functions done
either very well, or at least well enough.

In any case, I like having paved roads. I like having water at the tap
and not having to maintain the well (our house actually has a disused
well). I'm glad we have a police force. I'm glad I don't have to deal
with a septic system. I like national parks, state parks, township parks
and our village's forest preserve. I'm glad the local river has been
cleaned of pollution. I like that there are agencies ensuring safety of
food, water and medications. I'm happy with my medical coverage, which
as I understand it is a blend of medicare and insurance negotiated by my
state's teacher retirement system.

Oh, and speaking of the latter: My dealings with insurance companies
tells me that giving them, or any other private company, total power
over medical care would be a disaster for most individuals.

(But I admit, contractors who design and build massive new insurance
company headquarters would probably do even better than they are now.
And we shouldn't forget the yacht manufacturers whose customers are
insurance CEOs.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:28:02 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:57:13 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 09:15:10 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On 5/17/2022 5:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> >> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 10:16:20 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>> One might parse these things in various ways but you omitted
>>> >>> the classic case(s) of the Futurists. They became the
>>> >>> Fascists. By directing and regulating industry & commerce,
>>> >>> they avoided many of the crippling inefficiencies of the
>>> >>> more ardent communists who suffered State 'management'.
>>> >>> We're moving our economy and culture much more toward
>>> >>> Mussolini, Hitler and Peron than toward Stalin, Kim and Castro.
>>> >>
>>> >> yup, I see the big plans from the evil communist greenies to
>>> >> nationalize US private industries being announced daily
>>> >> <eyeroll>. Oh and I'm sure the conservatives _never_ made any
>>> >> attempts to take over a private business, right?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >The large political parties both have deep corruption and
>>> >that's not secret. Nor news.
>>> >
>>> >Trend to a diminished regulated economy with less freedom
>>> >and less prosperity is not getting better:
>>> >
>>> >https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/may/12/joe-biden-cancels-massive-oil-and-gas-lease-sale-d/
>>> Yup,
>>> In a statement shared first with CBS News, the Department of the
>>> Interior cited a "lack of industry interest in leasing in the area"
>>> for the decision to "not move forward" with the Cook Inlet lease sale.
>>> The department also halted two leases under consideration for the Gulf
>>> of Mexico region because of "conflicting court rulings that impacted
>>> work on these proposed lease sales."
>>> and
>>> The Interior Department's Bureau of Ocean Energy Management has
>>> previously canceled lease sales in Cook Inlet three times — in 2007,
>>> 2008, and 2011 — also citing "lack of industry interest" at the time
>>> as the reason for scrapping the sales.
>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-alaska-oil-gas-lease-sale-canceled/
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>>Yes. I have also seen many stories of leases for oil and gas land,
>> that are not being used. The government sold them, but the buyers
>> are not developing or trying to get the oil or gas. Very common.
>> But we live in a reasonably free society with somewhat free markets,
>> so the reasons for these unused oil and gas leases is reasonable.
>> No one is trying to rob, steal, cheat anyone else.
>>
>>https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/biden-9000-unused-oil-drill-permits/
>
> I don't remember the cost of drilling a production "shale oil" well
> but it is high, somewhere in the $50/bbl range, I'd guess, while a
> straight down and start pumping well in Saudi might be less then
> $10/bbl.

What does "$50/bbl" mean? Are the barrels the total oil that will be
produced? barrels/day? barrels/year? How do you know how many barrels
you'll get before drilling the well? I know the geologists and
reservoir simulators will give you an idea ...

> I remember in Indonesia, leases usually contained a requirement to
> drill, usually three, exploration wells and one company we worked for
> had drilled the required exploration wells and hit oil but were
> abandoning the project. When I asked them why? They said, "well, it's
> heavy oil and not worth producing now but when the price goes up it
> will still be there".

--

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 5/17/2022 10:35 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> writes:
>>
>>> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
>>>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
>>>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
>>>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
>>>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
>>>>
>>>> And why is this?
>>>
>>> A typical "delay feedback loop":
>>>
>>> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn
>>> significantly more money during their lifetime
>>> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
>>> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
>>> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
>>> college graduates and non-graduates
>>>
>>> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
>>>
>>> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the
>>> govermnent, students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their
>>> cost of living.
>> In the USA the federal government guarantees loans made by
>> commercial
>> banks to students for tuition and other expenses. These debts cannot be
>> discharged in bankruptcy. US universities expect to get a full
>> statement of family finances before making any offers of financial
>> assistance. In other words they know exactly how much money you have
>> when they decide how much to charge you -- it's a differential pricing
>> wet dream.
>
> And as I've mentioned before, things have changed markedly at
> universities. When I attended, there were not hundreds of exercise
> machines, multiple sports fields, a bunch of on-campus restaurants
> besides the dozen independent ones surrounding campus, the landscaping
> was far less elaborate with no fountains or sculptures, etc. But today
> colleges are competing heavily for students, and the administration's
> and trustees' thoughts are that these amenities increase
> enrollment. (State subsidy is based heavily on enrollment.)
>
> More important, back then the size of the administration was tiny
> compared to today's. I believe administration expenses have soared
> faster than any other aspect of the university budget. When I began
> teaching at the local university 40-odd years ago, the Provost's
> Office was one man plus one secretary. Now it's an entire complex with
> something like ten people plus part-time student assistants. Oh, and
> the university president's wife is now supplied with a personal
> shopper. :-/

This. When I was a student (at a state university), it was quite possible
to finance an education by part-time work. No longer.

Not to mention all the expensive but butt-ugly buildings. Universities
have become rapacious consumers of real estate.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 1:32:10 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
>> > Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
>> > No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
>> > for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
>> > collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
>> > --
>> > Cheers,
>> And why is this?
>
> Teachers continually demand increasing wages and the college owners
> continually want increasing profits. How can you argue with that
> except for students to no longer select that school to attend?
> Suddenly teachers are willing to accept less and owners will make less
> profit margin. This is the way that the Free Enterprise system is
> supposed to work. But it cannot work properly if everyone believes
> that the college bills are going to be paid off by me.

Unfortunately many of the teachers (the adjunct faculty) are hired on a
semester contract basis and paid poverty level wages. Sometimes they're
asked to teach just for the honor of having the experience. In
technical fields faculty are expected to bring in research grant money,
mostly from the federal government. Back when I was gradually deciding
not to be in gradual school some of my classmates searching for work
found that institutions expected them to pay for their own salaries out
of grant money immediately.

On 5/18/2022 1:51 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
>> On 5/17/2022 10:35 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> writes:
>>>
>>>> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
>>>>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
>>>>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
>>>>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
>>>>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
>>>>>
>>>>> And why is this?
>>>>
>>>> A typical "delay feedback loop":
>>>>
>>>> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn
>>>> significantly more money during their lifetime
>>>> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
>>>> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
>>>> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
>>>> college graduates and non-graduates
>>>>
>>>> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
>>>>
>>>> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the
>>>> govermnent, students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their
>>>> cost of living.
>>> In the USA the federal government guarantees loans made by
>>> commercial
>>> banks to students for tuition and other expenses. These debts cannot be
>>> discharged in bankruptcy. US universities expect to get a full
>>> statement of family finances before making any offers of financial
>>> assistance. In other words they know exactly how much money you have
>>> when they decide how much to charge you -- it's a differential pricing
>>> wet dream.
>>
>> And as I've mentioned before, things have changed markedly at
>> universities. When I attended, there were not hundreds of exercise
>> machines, multiple sports fields, a bunch of on-campus restaurants
>> besides the dozen independent ones surrounding campus, the landscaping
>> was far less elaborate with no fountains or sculptures, etc. But today
>> colleges are competing heavily for students, and the administration's
>> and trustees' thoughts are that these amenities increase
>> enrollment. (State subsidy is based heavily on enrollment.)
>>
>> More important, back then the size of the administration was tiny
>> compared to today's. I believe administration expenses have soared
>> faster than any other aspect of the university budget. When I began
>> teaching at the local university 40-odd years ago, the Provost's
>> Office was one man plus one secretary. Now it's an entire complex with
>> something like ten people plus part-time student assistants. Oh, and
>> the university president's wife is now supplied with a personal
>> shopper. :-/
>
> This. When I was a student (at a state university), it was quite possible
> to finance an education by part-time work. No longer.

Yep. I did that.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/18/2022 12:51 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
>> On 5/17/2022 10:35 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> writes:
>>>
>>>> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
>>>>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
>>>>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
>>>>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
>>>>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
>>>>>
>>>>> And why is this?
>>>>
>>>> A typical "delay feedback loop":
>>>>
>>>> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn
>>>> significantly more money during their lifetime
>>>> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
>>>> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
>>>> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
>>>> college graduates and non-graduates
>>>>
>>>> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
>>>>
>>>> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the
>>>> govermnent, students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their
>>>> cost of living.
>>> In the USA the federal government guarantees loans made by
>>> commercial
>>> banks to students for tuition and other expenses. These debts cannot be
>>> discharged in bankruptcy. US universities expect to get a full
>>> statement of family finances before making any offers of financial
>>> assistance. In other words they know exactly how much money you have
>>> when they decide how much to charge you -- it's a differential pricing
>>> wet dream.
>>
>> And as I've mentioned before, things have changed markedly at
>> universities. When I attended, there were not hundreds of exercise
>> machines, multiple sports fields, a bunch of on-campus restaurants
>> besides the dozen independent ones surrounding campus, the landscaping
>> was far less elaborate with no fountains or sculptures, etc. But today
>> colleges are competing heavily for students, and the administration's
>> and trustees' thoughts are that these amenities increase
>> enrollment. (State subsidy is based heavily on enrollment.)
>>
>> More important, back then the size of the administration was tiny
>> compared to today's. I believe administration expenses have soared
>> faster than any other aspect of the university budget. When I began
>> teaching at the local university 40-odd years ago, the Provost's
>> Office was one man plus one secretary. Now it's an entire complex with
>> something like ten people plus part-time student assistants. Oh, and
>> the university president's wife is now supplied with a personal
>> shopper. :-/
>
> This. When I was a student (at a state university), it was quite possible
> to finance an education by part-time work. No longer.
>
> Not to mention all the expensive but butt-ugly buildings. Universities
> have become rapacious consumers of real estate.
>

Real estate is cheap compared to
administrative/support/maintenance/construction payroll.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 3:49:05 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 6:43:47 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 5/17/2022 3:16 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:12:56 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> > >> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
> > >>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
> > >>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
> > >>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
> > >>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
> > >>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
> > >>>
> > >>> And why is this?
> > >>
> > >> A typical "delay feedback loop":
> > >>
> > >> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn significantly
> > >> more money during their lifetime
> > >> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
> > >> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
> > >> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
> > >> college graduates and non-graduates
> > >>
> > >> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
> > >>
> > >> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the govermnent,
> > >> students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their cost of living.
> > >
> > > These studies are outdated. I without a doubt would have made a great deal more money and better retirement benefits had I remained working as a technician for the Bay Area Rapid Transit district or as a Telephone Installation Technician as partner in a firm.
> > >
> > > Carpenters, Plumbers and concrete workers if they work for solid companies that can keep them working and making reasonable overtime will ALL earn higher wages than MOST college educations. Russell probably has first hand knowledge of this if he owns a home and has to have normal maintenance work completed. I had crown molding installed in ONE room by a carpenter who completed the world in under 4 hours for $2,200. He did a good job and I can't complain. I had to have my sewer pipe replaced out into the street and it took a good reliable company 4 hours and that was $8,500. These were well before the Biden inflation.
> > >
> > > I made up to a quarter million a year with a high school diploma and a two year city college. Neither of these helped my job. But I was also known as a problem solver and as managers moved around they knew they could call on me to fix their problems
> > How odd. Tom told us he had a GED instead of a high school diploma, and
> > bragged about walking away from that two year college because he knew
> > more than the teachers. How stories change!
> Right, I could have sworn that a while back he said he got a 4-year liberal arts degree at some bay area college (don't recall if it was a community college or a small private school) by going nights while working full time, paid for by the company he worked for at the time - though he resume show he was was only employed by them for 4 years.
>

Are you remembering the time Tommy said he was Captain or Commander of a ship and took sailing lessons or graduated from the sailing school. With a degree I guess.

> Of course that would mean he went to school full time while working full time. I guess that's doable, but tommy?
> >
> > There are some craftsmen like finish carpenters, welders, etc. who do
> > very well, most often by working all the overtime they can possibly fit
> > in their lives. But data, in contrast with anecdotes, indicate that on
> > average, college degrees do pay off monetarily (not to mention in other
> > ways).
> > https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2011/05/15/chapter-5-the-monetary-value-of-a-college-education/
> >
> > Of course, if you're interested in a good financial return, it pays to
> > carefully choose both the college and the major. Worst case is probably
> > something like an Art History or Peace Studies degree from a major Ivy
> > League school - expensive, and little market for whatever specialized
> > skills one learns. Best choice is probably an engineering degree from a
> > good state school.
> > https://bigeconomics.org/the-college-majors-that-pay-off-and-those-that-dont/
> >
> > I haven't been able to find any decent data on high school dropouts who
> > are smarter than everyone else in the world. Odd, that.
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 18 May 2022 07:21:46 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/18/2022 12:32 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> Op woensdag 18 mei 2022 om 02:02:10 UTC+2 schreef russellseaton1@yahoo.com:
>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 10:45:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:03:01 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 10:11 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'capitalism' is a pejorative term invented by Karl Marx.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Among his many errors, Marx' fixation on capital ignored the other
>>>>>> more significant input which is human ingenuity and incentive for
>>>>>> continued improvement in all ventures. The best examples are the poverty
>>>>>> where freedom and incentive are lacking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A more descriptive term is 'free market' where liberty, property rights,
>>>>>> especially intellectual property, and risk/reward are unfettered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That does _not_ describe my country at all. We're now some socialist
>>>>>> declining mess, a 'directed economy' as the Planners claim, with more
>>>>>> regulation and so less hope year over year.
>>>>> Are there countries whose economic system you like? What are they? What
>>>>> are the differences with ours?
>>>>>
>>>> It would be the 'leave me alone' economy I think. Everyone should take care of himself.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>> Lou, you live in the Netherlands? That country with billions of dollars of dikes and other water management systems. To prevent half or more of the country from being a swamp, lake, flooded, below sea level. Who did all of these projects? Individuals? Each landowner by himself? I doubt it. I believe the Government did everything. Yes the people paid for it eventually over time. But the government did the projects collectively for everyone to benefit. Socialism at its finest. Help your neighbor, everyone, to benefit all. No "alone", no "himself" to it.
>> I was answering Franks question what economy/government Mr. Muzi would prefer.
>> I was guessing based on Andrewks posts here that everything the government does is inefficient and corrupt and we have to leave most things to the privat sector exept the military. That is not my idea.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>
>I'm not completely rigid but my usual question, 'name
>something the government does efficiently and well' gets
>that thousand-mile stare...

But, do you want true efficiency?

The collection of exactly the amount of taxes owed, for example? Years
ago I remember H&R Block advising clients to claim the maximum for
charities, as "they never check". Technically that can be viewed as
defrauding the Government and, I believe Federal fraud charges can
lead to 10 years or more in federal prison.

The rigidly enforcing of highway speed laws? 2 MPH over the limit and
Bingo! $300 fine Sir! Or "run a stop sign" and it's $50 the first
time.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 18 May 2022 13:46:14 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:

>John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:28:02 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:57:13 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 09:15:10 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >On 5/17/2022 5:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> >> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 10:16:20 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>> One might parse these things in various ways but you omitted
>>>> >>> the classic case(s) of the Futurists. They became the
>>>> >>> Fascists. By directing and regulating industry & commerce,
>>>> >>> they avoided many of the crippling inefficiencies of the
>>>> >>> more ardent communists who suffered State 'management'.
>>>> >>> We're moving our economy and culture much more toward
>>>> >>> Mussolini, Hitler and Peron than toward Stalin, Kim and Castro.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> yup, I see the big plans from the evil communist greenies to
>>>> >> nationalize US private industries being announced daily
>>>> >> <eyeroll>. Oh and I'm sure the conservatives _never_ made any
>>>> >> attempts to take over a private business, right?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >The large political parties both have deep corruption and
>>>> >that's not secret. Nor news.
>>>> >
>>>> >Trend to a diminished regulated economy with less freedom
>>>> >and less prosperity is not getting better:
>>>> >
>>>> >https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/may/12/joe-biden-cancels-massive-oil-and-gas-lease-sale-d/
>>>> Yup,
>>>> In a statement shared first with CBS News, the Department of the
>>>> Interior cited a "lack of industry interest in leasing in the area"
>>>> for the decision to "not move forward" with the Cook Inlet lease sale.
>>>> The department also halted two leases under consideration for the Gulf
>>>> of Mexico region because of "conflicting court rulings that impacted
>>>> work on these proposed lease sales."
>>>> and
>>>> The Interior Department's Bureau of Ocean Energy Management has
>>>> previously canceled lease sales in Cook Inlet three times — in 2007,
>>>> 2008, and 2011 — also citing "lack of industry interest" at the time
>>>> as the reason for scrapping the sales.
>>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-alaska-oil-gas-lease-sale-canceled/
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>>
>>>Yes. I have also seen many stories of leases for oil and gas land,
>>> that are not being used. The government sold them, but the buyers
>>> are not developing or trying to get the oil or gas. Very common.
>>> But we live in a reasonably free society with somewhat free markets,
>>> so the reasons for these unused oil and gas leases is reasonable.
>>> No one is trying to rob, steal, cheat anyone else.
>>>
>>>https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/biden-9000-unused-oil-drill-permits/
>>
>> I don't remember the cost of drilling a production "shale oil" well
>> but it is high, somewhere in the $50/bbl range, I'd guess, while a
>> straight down and start pumping well in Saudi might be less then
>> $10/bbl.
>
>What does "$50/bbl" mean? Are the barrels the total oil that will be
>produced? barrels/day? barrels/year? How do you know how many barrels
>you'll get before drilling the well? I know the geologists and
>reservoir simulators will give you an idea ...

Sales price per barrel for the estimated production period necessary
to recover drilling and development costs.

Generally the exact numbers will not be known until at least one
exploration well is drilled and tested but your geology department
can, to some extent, guesstimate numbers although there are
innumerable cases of the Geologist getting it wrong.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:00:59 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 3:49:05 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 6:43:47 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On 5/17/2022 3:16 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:12:56 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> > >> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
>> > >>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
>> > >>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
>> > >>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
>> > >>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
>> > >>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> And why is this?
>> > >>
>> > >> A typical "delay feedback loop":
>> > >>
>> > >> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn significantly
>> > >> more money during their lifetime
>> > >> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
>> > >> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
>> > >> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
>> > >> college graduates and non-graduates
>> > >>
>> > >> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
>> > >>
>> > >> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the govermnent,
>> > >> students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their cost of living.
>> > >
>> > > These studies are outdated. I without a doubt would have made a great deal more money and better retirement benefits had I remained working as a technician for the Bay Area Rapid Transit district or as a Telephone Installation Technician as partner in a firm.
>> > >
>> > > Carpenters, Plumbers and concrete workers if they work for solid companies that can keep them working and making reasonable overtime will ALL earn higher wages than MOST college educations. Russell probably has first hand knowledge of this if he owns a home and has to have normal maintenance work completed. I had crown molding installed in ONE room by a carpenter who completed the world in under 4 hours for $2,200. He did a good job and I can't complain. I had to have my sewer pipe replaced out into the street and it took a good reliable company 4 hours and that was $8,500. These were well before the Biden inflation.
>> > >
>> > > I made up to a quarter million a year with a high school diploma and a two year city college. Neither of these helped my job. But I was also known as a problem solver and as managers moved around they knew they could call on me to fix their problems
>> > How odd. Tom told us he had a GED instead of a high school diploma, and
>> > bragged about walking away from that two year college because he knew
>> > more than the teachers. How stories change!
>> Right, I could have sworn that a while back he said he got a 4-year liberal arts degree at some bay area college (don't recall if it was a community college or a small private school) by going nights while working full time, paid for by the company he worked for at the time - though he resume show he was was only employed by them for 4 years.
>>
>
>Are you remembering the time Tommy said he was Captain or Commander of a ship and took sailing lessons or graduated from the sailing school. With a degree I guess.

Well... Tommy has done a great many weird and wonderful things. If you
don't believe it, why just ask him (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/17/2022 8:13 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> I don't remember the cost of drilling a production "shale oil" well
> but it is high, somewhere in the $50/bbl range, I'd guess, while a
> straight down and start pumping well in Saudi might be less then
> $10/bbl.

"In Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, production costs per barrel rarely exceeded
$10 per barrel throughout the study period, and median costs were $5.40
a barrel."

There's a misconception that when the oil futures price goes to $100/bbl
that the major oil companies are all paying $100/bbl for the oil that
they refine into gasoline, but of course that is not the case because
they are producing oil from the wells that they own, not buying oil on
the world market.

If the Saudi's crashed the price of oil it would be a big problem for
both Russian and U.S. oil companies. OTOH, by keeping the price high,
they are encouraging the move to electric vehicles which is bad for them
in the long term.

On Wed, 18 May 2022 19:44:05 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 5/17/2022 8:13 PM, John B. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> I don't remember the cost of drilling a production "shale oil" well
>> but it is high, somewhere in the $50/bbl range, I'd guess, while a
>> straight down and start pumping well in Saudi might be less then
>> $10/bbl.
>
>"In Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, production costs per barrel rarely exceeded
>$10 per barrel throughout the study period, and median costs were $5.40
>a barrel."
>
>There's a misconception that when the oil futures price goes to $100/bbl
>that the major oil companies are all paying $100/bbl for the oil that
>they refine into gasoline, but of course that is not the case because
>they are producing oil from the wells that they own, not buying oil on
>the world market.

Spot prices for oil futures is a rather over simplification of the oil
market. Oil companies, in most cases, do produce the crude that their
refineries process into gasoline, and various other substances, but in
some instances they will sell their oil and buy other oil because of
processing requirements. A plant that produced asphalt, for instance,
would not want West Texas Light, or Brent Crude oil.

>If the Saudi's crashed the price of oil it would be a big problem for
>both Russian and U.S. oil companies. OTOH, by keeping the price high,
>they are encouraging the move to electric vehicles which is bad for them
>in the long term.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 9:44:10 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> On 5/17/2022 8:13 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > I don't remember the cost of drilling a production "shale oil" well
> > but it is high, somewhere in the $50/bbl range, I'd guess, while a
> > straight down and start pumping well in Saudi might be less then
> > $10/bbl.
> "In Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, production costs per barrel rarely exceeded
> $10 per barrel throughout the study period, and median costs were $5.40
> a barrel."
>
> There's a misconception that when the oil futures price goes to $100/bbl
> that the major oil companies are all paying $100/bbl for the oil that
> they refine into gasoline, but of course that is not the case because
> they are producing oil from the wells that they own, not buying oil on
> the world market.

There has been a separation of the oil production companies and the refiners and the retail gasoline sellers for a long time now. Some do all three operations. Exxon Mobil, Chevron, British Petroleum, Conoco Phillips, Shell, Marathon are examples. But many oil producers have nothing at all to do with refining or selling retail gasoline. Occidental Petroleum, Apache, Devon, and many others. And there are many refining only companies. Nothing to do with the oil production or retail selling. Can't think of any off the top of my head though. And there are other companies that are only involved with the transportation of oil products. Energy Transfer and Enterprise Partners Distribution are two I know of. And of course there are many many companies that only sell the retail gasoline. Casey's, Quik Trip, 7-11 are examples. Just look at all the convenience stores and gas stations on your drives or rides. Many, not all, have nothing to do with oil production or refining or transporting. They just sell it.

Except for the vertically integrated companies, everyone is buying it from the next lower rung of the ladder. And even with integrated companies, they also mix in other's oil or refined products. Whatever results in the best profit. Crude oil is $110 barrel right now. Retail USA gasoline is $4.57 average. Oil barrel is 42 gallons. So raw price is $2.62 gallon for the oil. $1.92 profit. Except have to add transport fees and refining costs. Not sure what those costs are. But all that is left is profit. Except for the cost per barrel to produce the oil. John says $50/barrel for shale. That is $1.19/barrel. And the cost to pay the retailers for their labor and equipment. $1.92 minus $1.19 minus refining cost minus transporting/piping cost minus retail convenience store cost and labor = profit!!!!!!!!

>
> If the Saudi's crashed the price of oil it would be a big problem for
> both Russian and U.S. oil companies. OTOH, by keeping the price high,
> they are encouraging the move to electric vehicles which is bad for them
> in the long term.

On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:00:59 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>Are you remembering the time Tommy said he was Captain or Commander of a ship and took sailing lessons or graduated from the sailing school. With a degree I guess.

He claimed to have a degree in navigation from California Maritime
Academy, now called CSU Maritime Academy.
<https://www.csum.edu>
The first problems were:
- They didn't offer a degree in navigation.
- it's basically a military academy with uniforms.
- living on campus is required.
- Tom properly located the school in Valejo CA but then claimed that
Valejo is in Marin County when it really is in Solano County.

He also claimed to have audited a physics class at UC Berkeley:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/csB3WzGgrZQ/m/h-RoBpUuBQAJ>
>and that after almost the entire hour of the class the instructor
>hadn't uttered one single word of physics but had recited socialist
>propaganda. So I told him off and walked out.

and attended Cabot College to obtain a BA in something:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/csB3WzGgrZQ/m/oQdgjRuSBgAJ>
Cabot College appears in an early version of Tom's resume:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/_Y1MbXuzvNo/m/o6omSxsfAgAJ>
Education
general education - Degree in navigation
Tality requested I get a BA so that they could
promote me to department manager
Chabot College - Hayward, CA

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 5/18/2022 9:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> and attended Cabot College to obtain a BA in something:
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/csB3WzGgrZQ/m/oQdgjRuSBgAJ>
> Cabot College appears in an early version of Tom's resume:
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/_Y1MbXuzvNo/m/o6omSxsfAgAJ>
> Education
> general education - Degree in navigation
> Tality requested I get a BA so that they could
> promote me to department manager
> Chabot College - Hayward, CA

Chabot does not offer bachelor's degrees.

On 5/18/2022 8:06 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 13:46:14 -0400, Radey Shouman
> <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:28:02 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:57:13 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 09:15:10 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 5:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 10:16:20 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One might parse these things in various ways but you omitted
>>>>>>>> the classic case(s) of the Futurists. They became the
>>>>>>>> Fascists. By directing and regulating industry & commerce,
>>>>>>>> they avoided many of the crippling inefficiencies of the
>>>>>>>> more ardent communists who suffered State 'management'.
>>>>>>>> We're moving our economy and culture much more toward
>>>>>>>> Mussolini, Hitler and Peron than toward Stalin, Kim and Castro.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> yup, I see the big plans from the evil communist greenies to
>>>>>>> nationalize US private industries being announced daily
>>>>>>> <eyeroll>. Oh and I'm sure the conservatives _never_ made any
>>>>>>> attempts to take over a private business, right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The large political parties both have deep corruption and
>>>>>> that's not secret. Nor news.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Trend to a diminished regulated economy with less freedom
>>>>>> and less prosperity is not getting better:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/may/12/joe-biden-cancels-massive-oil-and-gas-lease-sale-d/
>>>>> Yup,
>>>>> In a statement shared first with CBS News, the Department of the
>>>>> Interior cited a "lack of industry interest in leasing in the area"
>>>>> for the decision to "not move forward" with the Cook Inlet lease sale.
>>>>> The department also halted two leases under consideration for the Gulf
>>>>> of Mexico region because of "conflicting court rulings that impacted
>>>>> work on these proposed lease sales."
>>>>> and
>>>>> The Interior Department's Bureau of Ocean Energy Management has
>>>>> previously canceled lease sales in Cook Inlet three times — in 2007,
>>>>> 2008, and 2011 — also citing "lack of industry interest" at the time
>>>>> as the reason for scrapping the sales.
>>>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-alaska-oil-gas-lease-sale-canceled/
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> Yes. I have also seen many stories of leases for oil and gas land,
>>>> that are not being used. The government sold them, but the buyers
>>>> are not developing or trying to get the oil or gas. Very common.
>>>> But we live in a reasonably free society with somewhat free markets,
>>>> so the reasons for these unused oil and gas leases is reasonable.
>>>> No one is trying to rob, steal, cheat anyone else.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/biden-9000-unused-oil-drill-permits/
>>>
>>> I don't remember the cost of drilling a production "shale oil" well
>>> but it is high, somewhere in the $50/bbl range, I'd guess, while a
>>> straight down and start pumping well in Saudi might be less then
>>> $10/bbl.
>>
>> What does "$50/bbl" mean? Are the barrels the total oil that will be
>> produced? barrels/day? barrels/year? How do you know how many barrels
>> you'll get before drilling the well? I know the geologists and
>> reservoir simulators will give you an idea ...
>
> Sales price per barrel for the estimated production period necessary
> to recover drilling and development costs.
>
> Generally the exact numbers will not be known until at least one
> exploration well is drilled and tested but your geology department
> can, to some extent, guesstimate numbers although there are
> innumerable cases of the Geologist getting it wrong.
>
>
>

That's right, errors happen. But I know oil geologists and
generally they're accurate enough overall to justify their
salaries with a profit to the company.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/18/2022 9:44 PM, sms wrote:
> On 5/17/2022 8:13 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I don't remember the cost of drilling a production "shale
>> oil" well
>> but it is high, somewhere in the $50/bbl range, I'd guess,
>> while a
>> straight down and start pumping well in Saudi might be
>> less then
>> $10/bbl.
>
> "In Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, production costs per barrel
> rarely exceeded $10 per barrel throughout the study period,
> and median costs were $5.40 a barrel."
>
> There's a misconception that when the oil futures price goes
> to $100/bbl that the major oil companies are all paying
> $100/bbl for the oil that they refine into gasoline, but of
> course that is not the case because they are producing oil
> from the wells that they own, not buying oil on the world
> market.
>
> If the Saudi's crashed the price of oil it would be a big
> problem for both Russian and U.S. oil companies. OTOH, by
> keeping the price high, they are encouraging the move to
> electric vehicles which is bad for them in the long term.

As discussed here previously, more than once, wellhead price
in The Kingdom is not the same as delivered price at a
refinery in Louisiana.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/18/2022 11:15 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 9:44:10 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
>> On 5/17/2022 8:13 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> I don't remember the cost of drilling a production "shale oil" well
>>> but it is high, somewhere in the $50/bbl range, I'd guess, while a
>>> straight down and start pumping well in Saudi might be less then
>>> $10/bbl.
>> "In Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, production costs per barrel rarely exceeded
>> $10 per barrel throughout the study period, and median costs were $5.40
>> a barrel."
>>
>> There's a misconception that when the oil futures price goes to $100/bbl
>> that the major oil companies are all paying $100/bbl for the oil that
>> they refine into gasoline, but of course that is not the case because
>> they are producing oil from the wells that they own, not buying oil on
>> the world market.
>
> There has been a separation of the oil production companies and the refiners and the retail gasoline sellers for a long time now. Some do all three operations. Exxon Mobil, Chevron, British Petroleum, Conoco Phillips, Shell, Marathon are examples. But many oil producers have nothing at all to do with refining or selling retail gasoline. Occidental Petroleum, Apache, Devon, and many others. And there are many refining only companies. Nothing to do with the oil production or retail selling. Can't think of any off the top of my head though. And there are other companies that are only involved with the transportation of oil products. Energy Transfer and Enterprise Partners Distribution are two I know of. And of course there are many many companies that only sell the retail gasoline. Casey's, Quik Trip, 7-11 are examples. Just look at all the convenience stores and gas stations on your drives or rides. Many, not all, have nothing to do with oil production or refining or tr
ansporting. They just sell it.
>
> Except for the vertically integrated companies, everyone is buying it from the next lower rung of the ladder. And even with integrated companies, they also mix in other's oil or refined products. Whatever results in the best profit. Crude oil is $110 barrel right now. Retail USA gasoline is $4.57 average. Oil barrel is 42 gallons. So raw price is $2.62 gallon for the oil. $1.92 profit. Except have to add transport fees and refining costs. Not sure what those costs are. But all that is left is profit. Except for the cost per barrel to produce the oil. John says $50/barrel for shale. That is $1.19/barrel. And the cost to pay the retailers for their labor and equipment. $1.92 minus $1.19 minus refining cost minus transporting/piping cost minus retail convenience store cost and labor = profit!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
>
>>
>> If the Saudi's crashed the price of oil it would be a big problem for
>> both Russian and U.S. oil companies. OTOH, by keeping the price high,
>> they are encouraging the move to electric vehicles which is bad for them
>> in the long term.

Right. Moreover, the amount of gasoline refined from one
barrel of crude is much less than 42 gallons and refinery
services are an added expense.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 11:50:00 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:00:59 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Are you remembering the time Tommy said he was Captain or Commander of a ship and took sailing lessons or graduated from the sailing school. With a degree I guess.
> He claimed to have a degree in navigation from California Maritime
> Academy, now called CSU Maritime Academy.
> <https://www.csum.edu>
> The first problems were:
> - They didn't offer a degree in navigation.
> - it's basically a military academy with uniforms.
> - living on campus is required.
> - Tom properly located the school in Valejo CA but then claimed that
> Valejo is in Marin County when it really is in Solano County.
>

That's it. I knew my memory was working fairly well. Tommy was talking about his yacht club and this came up. I can't remember why Tommy was talking about his yacht club though. I think it was due to where the Navy had bases in the bay area.

> He also claimed to have audited a physics class at UC Berkeley:
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/csB3WzGgrZQ/m/h-RoBpUuBQAJ>
> >and that after almost the entire hour of the class the instructor
> >hadn't uttered one single word of physics but had recited socialist
> >propaganda. So I told him off and walked out.
>
> and attended Cabot College to obtain a BA in something:
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/csB3WzGgrZQ/m/oQdgjRuSBgAJ>
> Cabot College appears in an early version of Tom's resume:
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/_Y1MbXuzvNo/m/o6omSxsfAgAJ>
> Education
> general education - Degree in navigation
> Tality requested I get a BA so that they could
> promote me to department manager
> Chabot College - Hayward, CA
>
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 19 May 2022 00:14:56 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/18/2022 11:15 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 9:44:10 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
>>> On 5/17/2022 8:13 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>> I don't remember the cost of drilling a production "shale oil" well
>>>> but it is high, somewhere in the $50/bbl range, I'd guess, while a
>>>> straight down and start pumping well in Saudi might be less then
>>>> $10/bbl.
>>> "In Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, production costs per barrel rarely exceeded
>>> $10 per barrel throughout the study period, and median costs were $5.40
>>> a barrel."
>>>
>>> There's a misconception that when the oil futures price goes to $100/bbl
>>> that the major oil companies are all paying $100/bbl for the oil that
>>> they refine into gasoline, but of course that is not the case because
>>> they are producing oil from the wells that they own, not buying oil on
>>> the world market.
>>
>> There has been a separation of the oil production companies and the refiners and the retail gasoline sellers for a long time now. Some do all three operations. Exxon Mobil, Chevron, British Petroleum, Conoco Phillips, Shell, Marathon are examples. But many oil producers have nothing at all to do with refining or selling retail gasoline. Occidental Petroleum, Apache, Devon, and many others. And there are many refining only companies. Nothing to do with the oil production or retail selling. Can't think of any off the top of my head though. And there are other companies that are only involved with the transportation of oil products. Energy Transfer and Enterprise Partners Distribution are two I know of. And of course there are many many companies that only sell the retail gasoline. Casey's, Quik Trip, 7-11 are examples. Just look at all the convenience stores and gas stations on your drives or rides. Many, not all, have nothing to do with oil production or refining or tr
>ansporting. They just sell it.
>>
>> Except for the vertically integrated companies, everyone is buying it from the next lower rung of the ladder. And even with integrated companies, they also mix in other's oil or refined products. Whatever results in the best profit. Crude oil is $110 barrel right now. Retail USA gasoline is $4.57 average. Oil barrel is 42 gallons. So raw price is $2.62 gallon for the oil. $1.92 profit. Except have to add transport fees and refining costs. Not sure what those costs are. But all that is left is profit. Except for the cost per barrel to produce the oil. John says $50/barrel for shale. That is $1.19/barrel. And the cost to pay the retailers for their labor and equipment. $1.92 minus $1.19 minus refining cost minus transporting/piping cost minus retail convenience store cost and labor = profit!!!!!!!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> If the Saudi's crashed the price of oil it would be a big problem for
>>> both Russian and U.S. oil companies. OTOH, by keeping the price high,
>>> they are encouraging the move to electric vehicles which is bad for them
>>> in the long term.
>
>Right. Moreover, the amount of gasoline refined from one
>barrel of crude is much less than 42 gallons and refinery
>services are an added expense.

Well, I read that Brent Crude is selling for $107.70/bbl as of
19/05/22-05:30, and you get something like 19 - 20 gallons of gasoline
from one barrel (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 18 May 2022 22:16:46 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>That's it. I knew my memory was working fairly well. Tommy was talking about his yacht club and this came up. I can't remember why Tommy was talking about his yacht club though. I think it was due to where the Navy had bases in the bay area.

You had it right. He claimed to be a life member of the Aeolian Yacht
Club:
<http://www.aeolianyc.org>
The problem is that the Aeolian YC doesn't offer life memberships.
<http://www.aeolianyc.org/schedule-of-fees-and-charges.html>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 19 May 2022 00:08:03 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/18/2022 8:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 13:46:14 -0400, Radey Shouman
>> <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:28:02 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:57:13 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 09:15:10 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 5:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 10:16:20 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One might parse these things in various ways but you omitted
>>>>>>>>> the classic case(s) of the Futurists. They became the
>>>>>>>>> Fascists. By directing and regulating industry & commerce,
>>>>>>>>> they avoided many of the crippling inefficiencies of the
>>>>>>>>> more ardent communists who suffered State 'management'.
>>>>>>>>> We're moving our economy and culture much more toward
>>>>>>>>> Mussolini, Hitler and Peron than toward Stalin, Kim and Castro.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> yup, I see the big plans from the evil communist greenies to
>>>>>>>> nationalize US private industries being announced daily
>>>>>>>> <eyeroll>. Oh and I'm sure the conservatives _never_ made any
>>>>>>>> attempts to take over a private business, right?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The large political parties both have deep corruption and
>>>>>>> that's not secret. Nor news.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Trend to a diminished regulated economy with less freedom
>>>>>>> and less prosperity is not getting better:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/may/12/joe-biden-cancels-massive-oil-and-gas-lease-sale-d/
>>>>>> Yup,
>>>>>> In a statement shared first with CBS News, the Department of the
>>>>>> Interior cited a "lack of industry interest in leasing in the area"
>>>>>> for the decision to "not move forward" with the Cook Inlet lease sale.
>>>>>> The department also halted two leases under consideration for the Gulf
>>>>>> of Mexico region because of "conflicting court rulings that impacted
>>>>>> work on these proposed lease sales."
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> The Interior Department's Bureau of Ocean Energy Management has
>>>>>> previously canceled lease sales in Cook Inlet three times — in 2007,
>>>>>> 2008, and 2011 — also citing "lack of industry interest" at the time
>>>>>> as the reason for scrapping the sales.
>>>>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-alaska-oil-gas-lease-sale-canceled/
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. I have also seen many stories of leases for oil and gas land,
>>>>> that are not being used. The government sold them, but the buyers
>>>>> are not developing or trying to get the oil or gas. Very common.
>>>>> But we live in a reasonably free society with somewhat free markets,
>>>>> so the reasons for these unused oil and gas leases is reasonable.
>>>>> No one is trying to rob, steal, cheat anyone else.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/biden-9000-unused-oil-drill-permits/
>>>>
>>>> I don't remember the cost of drilling a production "shale oil" well
>>>> but it is high, somewhere in the $50/bbl range, I'd guess, while a
>>>> straight down and start pumping well in Saudi might be less then
>>>> $10/bbl.
>>>
>>> What does "$50/bbl" mean? Are the barrels the total oil that will be
>>> produced? barrels/day? barrels/year? How do you know how many barrels
>>> you'll get before drilling the well? I know the geologists and
>>> reservoir simulators will give you an idea ...
>>
>> Sales price per barrel for the estimated production period necessary
>> to recover drilling and development costs.
>>
>> Generally the exact numbers will not be known until at least one
>> exploration well is drilled and tested but your geology department
>> can, to some extent, guesstimate numbers although there are
>> innumerable cases of the Geologist getting it wrong.
>>
>>
>>
>
>That's right, errors happen. But I know oil geologists and
>generally they're accurate enough overall to justify their
>salaries with a profit to the company.

I was around them for a lot of years and they do tend to use a lot of
"if's" and "assuming that" in their reports (:-) Especially when
evaluating a new location.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/19/2022 2:32 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 00:08:03 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 5/18/2022 8:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 13:46:14 -0400, Radey Shouman
>>> <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:28:02 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:57:13 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 09:15:10 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 5:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 10:16:20 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One might parse these things in various ways but you omitted
>>>>>>>>>> the classic case(s) of the Futurists. They became the
>>>>>>>>>> Fascists. By directing and regulating industry & commerce,
>>>>>>>>>> they avoided many of the crippling inefficiencies of the
>>>>>>>>>> more ardent communists who suffered State 'management'.
>>>>>>>>>> We're moving our economy and culture much more toward
>>>>>>>>>> Mussolini, Hitler and Peron than toward Stalin, Kim and Castro.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> yup, I see the big plans from the evil communist greenies to
>>>>>>>>> nationalize US private industries being announced daily
>>>>>>>>> <eyeroll>. Oh and I'm sure the conservatives _never_ made any
>>>>>>>>> attempts to take over a private business, right?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The large political parties both have deep corruption and
>>>>>>>> that's not secret. Nor news.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Trend to a diminished regulated economy with less freedom
>>>>>>>> and less prosperity is not getting better:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/may/12/joe-biden-cancels-massive-oil-and-gas-lease-sale-d/
>>>>>>> Yup,
>>>>>>> In a statement shared first with CBS News, the Department of the
>>>>>>> Interior cited a "lack of industry interest in leasing in the area"
>>>>>>> for the decision to "not move forward" with the Cook Inlet lease sale.
>>>>>>> The department also halted two leases under consideration for the Gulf
>>>>>>> of Mexico region because of "conflicting court rulings that impacted
>>>>>>> work on these proposed lease sales."
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> The Interior Department's Bureau of Ocean Energy Management has
>>>>>>> previously canceled lease sales in Cook Inlet three times — in 2007,
>>>>>>> 2008, and 2011 — also citing "lack of industry interest" at the time
>>>>>>> as the reason for scrapping the sales.
>>>>>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-alaska-oil-gas-lease-sale-canceled/
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes. I have also seen many stories of leases for oil and gas land,
>>>>>> that are not being used. The government sold them, but the buyers
>>>>>> are not developing or trying to get the oil or gas. Very common.
>>>>>> But we live in a reasonably free society with somewhat free markets,
>>>>>> so the reasons for these unused oil and gas leases is reasonable.
>>>>>> No one is trying to rob, steal, cheat anyone else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/biden-9000-unused-oil-drill-permits/
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't remember the cost of drilling a production "shale oil" well
>>>>> but it is high, somewhere in the $50/bbl range, I'd guess, while a
>>>>> straight down and start pumping well in Saudi might be less then
>>>>> $10/bbl.
>>>>
>>>> What does "$50/bbl" mean? Are the barrels the total oil that will be
>>>> produced? barrels/day? barrels/year? How do you know how many barrels
>>>> you'll get before drilling the well? I know the geologists and
>>>> reservoir simulators will give you an idea ...
>>>
>>> Sales price per barrel for the estimated production period necessary
>>> to recover drilling and development costs.
>>>
>>> Generally the exact numbers will not be known until at least one
>>> exploration well is drilled and tested but your geology department
>>> can, to some extent, guesstimate numbers although there are
>>> innumerable cases of the Geologist getting it wrong.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That's right, errors happen. But I know oil geologists and
>> generally they're accurate enough overall to justify their
>> salaries with a profit to the company.
>
> I was around them for a lot of years and they do tend to use a lot of
> "if's" and "assuming that" in their reports (:-) Especially when
> evaluating a new location.
>

So do doctors. And bicycle mechanics. And attorneys. An
adult with some expertise and imperfect information should
note uncertainty of outcome.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/18/2022 6:16 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/18/2022 12:51 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/17/2022 10:35 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
>>>>>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
>>>>>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every
>>>>>>> month
>>>>>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
>>>>>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying
>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And why is this?
>>>>>
>>>>> A typical "delay feedback loop":
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn
>>>>> significantly more money during their lifetime
>>>>> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
>>>>> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
>>>>> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
>>>>> college graduates and non-graduates
>>>>>
>>>>> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
>>>>>
>>>>> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the
>>>>> govermnent, students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their
>>>>> cost of living.
>>>> In the USA the federal government guarantees loans made by
>>>> commercial
>>>> banks to students for tuition and other expenses.  These debts
>>>> cannot be
>>>> discharged in bankruptcy.  US universities expect to get a full
>>>> statement of family finances before making any offers of financial
>>>> assistance.  In other words they know exactly how much money you have
>>>> when they decide how much to charge you -- it's a differential pricing
>>>> wet dream.
>>>
>>> And as I've mentioned before, things have changed markedly at
>>> universities. When I attended, there were not hundreds of exercise
>>> machines, multiple sports fields, a bunch of on-campus restaurants
>>> besides the dozen independent ones surrounding campus, the landscaping
>>> was far less elaborate with no fountains or sculptures, etc. But today
>>> colleges are competing heavily for students, and the administration's
>>> and trustees' thoughts are that these amenities increase
>>> enrollment. (State subsidy is based heavily on enrollment.)
>>>
>>> More important, back then the size of the administration was tiny
>>> compared to today's. I believe administration expenses have soared
>>> faster than any other aspect of the university budget. When I began
>>> teaching at the local university 40-odd years ago, the Provost's
>>> Office was one man plus one secretary. Now it's an entire complex with
>>> something like ten people plus part-time student assistants. Oh, and
>>> the university president's wife is now supplied with a personal
>>> shopper.  :-/
>>
>> This.  When I was a student (at a state university), it was quite
>> possible
>> to finance an education by part-time work.  No longer.
>>
>> Not to mention all the expensive but butt-ugly buildings.  Universities
>> have become rapacious consumers of real estate.

True. Our university's trustees once, long ago, had a plan to expand the
campus to the east, into what was an old, traditionally Italian inner
city neighborhood. The university began buying and razing house after
house. Out of hundreds, now only a dozen or so are still standing. (I
had a friend who was one of the holdouts, until he died.)

Then the trustees changed their mind. Campus expanded north instead. The
intimate, pleasant old neighborhood is gone and wasted. There's one ball
field, a couple parking lots and lots of empty lots punctuated by a few
lonely houses.

> Real estate is cheap compared to
> administrative/support/maintenance/construction payroll.
As I understand it, new buildings are funded almost entirely by the
state, if officials believe the trustees sales pitch. Those funds don't
pass through the university budget. It seems to be a case of "Well,
that's a different pot of money, so it doesn't count."

--
- Frank Krygowski