On 5/24/2022 11:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/24/2022 9:07 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT),
>>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5,
>>>> cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7,
>>>>> cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7,
>>>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John
>>>>>>>>>>>> B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cleary
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would I normally need to add. Right now I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe my chain length is fine but when I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pull the rear derailleur all the way up after
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prefer the old big-big without the going
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through derailleur to measure or some other way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The
>>>>>>>>>>>> chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big
>>>>>>>>>>>> fine with no stress. I probably should get a new
>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in
>>>>>>>>>>>> prices.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth
>>>>>>>>>>> wear. Measure
>>>>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the
>>>>>>>>>>> cheapest part of
>>>>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section
>>>>>>>>>>> #8d here:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
>>>>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram
>>>>>>>>>> PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike
>>>>>>>>>> shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra.
>>>>>>>>>> Will the Sram shift equally as good as the
>>>>>>>>>> Shimano. I have not mixed these components just
>>>>>>>>>> due to the fact that it has work with all shimano
>>>>>>>>>> in the past good. But if this sram which seems
>>>>>>>>>> like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My
>>>>>>>>>> guess is shifting will be same but would not
>>>>>>>>>> surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even
>>>>>>>>>> smoother.
>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> SRAM chains:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer
>>>>>>>>> wearing
>>>>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually
>>>>>>>>> neither).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra
>>>>>>>>> fine for
>>>>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
>>>>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a
>>>>>>>> shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10
>>>>>>>> or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes
>>>>>>>> the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH
>>>>>>>> better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was
>>>>>>>> better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather
>>>>>>>> than the $70 Wipperman.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
>>>>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
>>>>>>> thought we made it up.
>>>>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns
>>>>>> was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
>>>>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy
>>>>> installation video seemed to be saying that if you had
>>>>> a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112
>>>>> links and if you had a compact you should be using a
>>>>> 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since
>>>>> the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their
>>>>> conclusion.
>>>>
>>>> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth
>>>> outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The
>>>> larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two
>>>> half links since you can only break a chain every other
>>>> pin. 112 to 110.
>>>
>>> It's been a while but I seem to remember that to
>>> correctly size a
>>> chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and
>>> the largest
>>> rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
>>> Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
>>>
>>
>> That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
>> and now with one exception.
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
>>
>> The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned
>> to span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set
>> up the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
>> carefully and follow those directions.
>>
>> Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo
>> GranSport, Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift
>> best with longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
>
> I would have phrased that differently. I'd say they just
> shift less badly with longer chain.
>
>

On Tue, 24 May 2022 07:11:23 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
>> >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
>> >>>>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>> >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
>> >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
>> >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
>> >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
>> >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
>> >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
>> >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
>> >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
>> >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
>> >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
>> >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
>> >>>>> thought we made it up.
>> >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
>> >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
>> >>
>> >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
>> >
>> > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
>> > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
>> > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
>> > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
>> >
>> That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
>> and now with one exception.
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
>>
>> The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
>> span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
>> the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
>> carefully and follow those directions.
>>
>> Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
>> Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
>> longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
>
>It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well and used wiring for which there are no spares since I believe that it contains 3 conductors and the shifting computer never worked properly. This is why the very next year Shimano totally redesigned the system from the ground up. This certainly gets tiresome. Why do you suppose that people that don't have any top end stuff always know all about it?

Top end Bicycles? You mean some sort of plastic thing? And you the
chap who has bemoaned, over the years, how your supper-dupper plastic
(POS) bike broke and dumped you head first onto the highway and as a
result you suffered brain damaged, and been a "loony" ever since.

Nope My bikes are/were all proper steel tube and not a one of them has
ever broken.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 5:58:19 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 24 May 2022 07:11:23 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
> >> > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
> >> >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
> >> >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
> >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
> >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
> >> >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
> >> >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
> >> >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
> >> >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
> >> >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
> >> >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
> >> >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
> >> >>>>> thought we made it up.
> >> >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
> >> >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
> >> >>
> >> >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
> >> >
> >> > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
> >> > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
> >> > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
> >> > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
> >> >
> >> That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
> >> and now with one exception.
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
> >>
> >> The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
> >> span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
> >> the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
> >> carefully and follow those directions.
> >>
> >> Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
> >> Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
> >> longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
> >
> >It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well and used wiring for which there are no spares since I believe that it contains 3 conductors and the shifting computer never worked properly. This is why the very next year Shimano totally redesigned the system from the ground up. This certainly gets tiresome. Why do you suppose that people that don't have any top end stuff always know all about it?
> Top end Bicycles? You mean some sort of plastic thing? And you the
> chap who has bemoaned, over the years, how your supper-dupper plastic
> (POS) bike broke and dumped you head first onto the highway and as a
> result you suffered brain damaged, and been a "loony" ever since.
>
> Nope My bikes are/were all proper steel tube and not a one of them has
> ever broken.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.
Just so you all know I put the new cassette on it and then ran the old chain and it was fine. I then put a new chain on the bike because it has over 12000 miles and was near the end of the limit. Not really stretch beyond but getting to the point. So with the new cassette same length chain as the prior all is good. I went out Saturday to find any hill or climb that I could, and Illinois that is hard. It made a difference I like the 32 on the rear that I don't need here but do in some parts of the country. Actually it is nice to use to spin up even a short climb here.
Deacon Mark

On Tue, 24 May 2022 16:10:53 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
<deaconmjc08@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 5:58:19 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 May 2022 07:11:23 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
>> >> > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> --
>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
>> >> >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
>> >> >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
>> >> >>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
>> >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>> >> >>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
>> >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
>> >> >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
>> >> >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
>> >> >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
>> >> >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
>> >> >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
>> >> >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
>> >> >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
>> >> >>>>> thought we made it up.
>> >> >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
>> >> >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
>> >> >
>> >> > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
>> >> > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
>> >> > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
>> >> > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
>> >> >
>> >> That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
>> >> and now with one exception.
>> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
>> >>
>> >> The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
>> >> span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
>> >> the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
>> >> carefully and follow those directions.
>> >>
>> >> Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
>> >> Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
>> >> longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
>> >
>> >It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well and used wiring for which there are no spares since I believe that it contains 3 conductors and the shifting computer never worked properly. This is why the very next year Shimano totally redesigned the system from the ground up. This certainly gets tiresome. Why do you suppose that people that don't have any top end stuff always know all about it?
>> Top end Bicycles? You mean some sort of plastic thing? And you the
>> chap who has bemoaned, over the years, how your supper-dupper plastic
>> (POS) bike broke and dumped you head first onto the highway and as a
>> result you suffered brain damaged, and been a "loony" ever since.
>>
>> Nope My bikes are/were all proper steel tube and not a one of them has
>> ever broken.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>Just so you all know I put the new cassette on it and then ran the old chain and it was fine. I then put a new chain on the bike because it has over 12000 miles and was near the end of the limit. Not really stretch beyond but getting to the point. So with the new cassette same length chain as the prior all is good. I went out Saturday to find any hill or climb that I could, and Illinois that is hard. It made a difference I like the 32 on the rear that I don't need here but do in some parts of the country. Actually it is nice to use to spin up even a short climb here.
>Deacon Mark

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
> > > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> > >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
> > >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
> > >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
> > >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
> > >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
> > >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
> > >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
> > >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
> > >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
> > >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
> > >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
> > >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
> > >>>>> thought we made it up.
> > >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
> > >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
> > >>
> > >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
> > >
> > > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
> > > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
> > > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
> > > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
> > >
> > That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
> > and now with one exception.
> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
> >
> > The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
> > span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
> > the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
> > carefully and follow those directions.
> >
> > Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
> > Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
> > longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well

News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech.. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.

> and used wiring for which there are no spares since I believe that it contains 3 conductors and the shifting computer never worked properly. This is why the very next year Shimano totally redesigned the system from the ground up. This certainly gets tiresome. Why do you suppose that people that don't have any top end stuff always know all about it?

On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> > On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
>> > > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
>> > >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
>> > >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
>> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
>> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
>> > >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
>> > >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
>> > >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
>> > >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
>> > >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
>> > >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
>> > >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
>> > >>>>> thought we made it up.
>> > >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
>> > >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
>> > >>
>> > >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
>> > >
>> > > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
>> > > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
>> > > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
>> > > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
>> > >
>> > That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
>> > and now with one exception.
>> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
>> >
>> > The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
>> > span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
>> > the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
>> > carefully and follow those directions.
>> >
>> > Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
>> > Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
>> > longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
>> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
>
>News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
>
>
>
>
>> and used wiring for which there are no spares since I believe that it contains 3 conductors and the shifting computer never worked properly. This is why the very next year Shimano totally redesigned the system from the ground up. This certainly gets tiresome. Why do you suppose that people that don't have any top end stuff always know all about it?

I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
(Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
There you are thundering down the road at, well say 15 mph, and you
push the button or wiggle the thingy, and the bike shifts. What more
is there?
--
Cheers,

On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 8:01:28 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> > On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
> >> > > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> > >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> > >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
> >> > >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
> >> > >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
> >> > >>>>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
> >> > >>>>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
> >> > >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
> >> > >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >> > >>>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
> >> > >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
> >> > >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
> >> > >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
> >> > >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
> >> > >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
> >> > >>>>> thought we made it up.
> >> > >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
> >> > >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
> >> > >
> >> > > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
> >> > > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
> >> > > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
> >> > > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
> >> > >
> >> > That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
> >> > and now with one exception.
> >> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
> >> >
> >> > The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
> >> > span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
> >> > the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
> >> > carefully and follow those directions.
> >> >
> >> > Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
> >> > Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
> >> > longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
> >> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
> >
> >News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> and used wiring for which there are no spares since I believe that it contains 3 conductors and the shifting computer never worked properly. This is why the very next year Shimano totally redesigned the system from the ground up. This certainly gets tiresome. Why do you suppose that people that don't have any top end stuff always know all about it?
> I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
> shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
> (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
> There you are thundering down the road at, well say 15 mph, and you
> push the button or wiggle the thingy, and the bike shifts. What more
> is there?
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 6:11:02 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 8:01:28 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
> > On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> > On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
> > >> > > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > >> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> > >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo..com wrote:
> > >> > >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> > >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
> > >> > >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
> > >> > >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> > >> > >>>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
> > >> > >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
> > >> > >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
> > >> > >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
> > >> > >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
> > >> > >>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
> > >> > >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
> > >> > >>>>> thought we made it up.
> > >> > >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
> > >> > >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
> > >> > > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
> > >> > > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
> > >> > > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
> > >> > >
> > >> > That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
> > >> > and now with one exception.
> > >> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
> > >> >
> > >> > The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
> > >> > span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
> > >> > the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
> > >> > carefully and follow those directions.
> > >> >
> > >> > Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
> > >> > Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
> > >> > longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
> > >> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
> > >
> > >News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> and used wiring for which there are no spares since I believe that it contains 3 conductors and the shifting computer never worked properly. This is why the very next year Shimano totally redesigned the system from the ground up. This certainly gets tiresome. Why do you suppose that people that don't have any top end stuff always know all about it?
> > I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
> > shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
> > (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
> > gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
> > There you are thundering down the road at, well say 15 mph, and you
> > push the button or wiggle the thingy, and the bike shifts. What more
> > is there?
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John B.
> For me it gets rid of all the cable/housing issues. Set up once and leave it. No (re)adjusting, sticky cables worn housings etc. YMMV.

On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 6:32:40 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 6:11:02 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

> > For me it gets rid of all the cable/housing issues. Set up once and leave it. No (re)adjusting, sticky cables worn housings etc. YMMV.
> You appear to be speaking of electrinic shifting. You are trading off battery life both daily and lifespan for having that terrible task of setting up cables.

I take charging the Di2 battery once in a season over installing new housings every 3-4 years (removing handlebar tape, cutting housings to length, guide them along handlebar, putting new handlebar tape on) any time. YMMV.

>
> I'm presently waiting for those Campy front derailleur alignment tools. Are you going to argue that you don't need them with Di2 or Ergo?

I don't need an alignment tool for the FD for any system. Give me a break. New FD com with a sticker:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xTKPr1Bi18JGdHNs5

but even without a sticker I can eyeball 2 mm.
BTW a Di2 FD is much easier to setup than a mechanical one.

>
> Installing the Chorus rear derailleur this morning I discovered that it too uses a T-25 Torx. The Neiko Torx sockets don't fit into the hole so I of necessity had to use the Torx with round extensions. I don't ave any sockets small enough to fit that connection since itis designed to go into a screwdriver socket so the exact torque cannot be set. Here I am with four or five tool boxes filled with general and special tools and I have to guess at the torque settings.

Get yourself a proper bike specific Torx set.

>
> I have an entire shelf of special tools JUST for putting on or removing freehubs or cassettes. Even pretending that this is sensible is loony.

Throw that old stuff away. You only need two: Shimano and Campagnolo.

Lou

On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 10:50:18 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 6:32:40 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 6:11:02 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> > > For me it gets rid of all the cable/housing issues. Set up once and leave it. No (re)adjusting, sticky cables worn housings etc. YMMV.
> > You appear to be speaking of electrinic shifting. You are trading off battery life both daily and lifespan for having that terrible task of setting up cables.
> I take charging the Di2 battery once in a season over installing new housings every 3-4 years (removing handlebar tape, cutting housings to length, guide them along handlebar, putting new handlebar tape on) any time. YMMV.
> >
> > I'm presently waiting for those Campy front derailleur alignment tools. Are you going to argue that you don't need them with Di2 or Ergo?
> I don't need an alignment tool for the FD for any system. Give me a break.. New FD com with a sticker:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/xTKPr1Bi18JGdHNs5
>
> but even without a sticker I can eyeball 2 mm.
> BTW a Di2 FD is much easier to setup than a mechanical one.
> >
> > Installing the Chorus rear derailleur this morning I discovered that it too uses a T-25 Torx. The Neiko Torx sockets don't fit into the hole so I of necessity had to use the Torx with round extensions. I don't ave any sockets small enough to fit that connection since itis designed to go into a screwdriver socket so the exact torque cannot be set. Here I am with four or five tool boxes filled with general and special tools and I have to guess at the torque settings.
> Get yourself a proper bike specific Torx set.
> >
> > I have an entire shelf of special tools JUST for putting on or removing freehubs or cassettes. Even pretending that this is sensible is loony.
> Throw that old stuff away. You only need two: Shimano and Campagnolo.

I'm just pulling your leg. Remember that one of my bikes I have left has Dura Ace Di2 and without a doubt it is the best shifting ever But I have NEVER had to replace cables. I suppose that is because the weather here is so much better than in Holland. Usually rain is so rare that you can always wait a day or two to ride.

On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 10:50:18 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 6:32:40 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 6:11:02 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> > > For me it gets rid of all the cable/housing issues. Set up once and leave it. No (re)adjusting, sticky cables worn housings etc. YMMV.
> > You appear to be speaking of electrinic shifting. You are trading off battery life both daily and lifespan for having that terrible task of setting up cables.
> I take charging the Di2 battery once in a season over installing new housings every 3-4 years (removing handlebar tape, cutting housings to length, guide them along handlebar, putting new handlebar tape on) any time. YMMV.
> >
> > I'm presently waiting for those Campy front derailleur alignment tools. Are you going to argue that you don't need them with Di2 or Ergo?
> I don't need an alignment tool for the FD for any system. Give me a break.. New FD com with a sticker:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/xTKPr1Bi18JGdHNs5
>
> but even without a sticker I can eyeball 2 mm.
> BTW a Di2 FD is much easier to setup than a mechanical one.
> >
> > Installing the Chorus rear derailleur this morning I discovered that it too uses a T-25 Torx. The Neiko Torx sockets don't fit into the hole so I of necessity had to use the Torx with round extensions. I don't ave any sockets small enough to fit that connection since itis designed to go into a screwdriver socket so the exact torque cannot be set. Here I am with four or five tool boxes filled with general and special tools and I have to guess at the torque settings.
> Get yourself a proper bike specific Torx set.
> >
> > I have an entire shelf of special tools JUST for putting on or removing freehubs or cassettes. Even pretending that this is sensible is loony.
> Throw that old stuff away. You only need two: Shimano and Campagnolo.

I was had the understanding that this WAS a bike specific Torx set. What else are they used on? The Torx socket was long enough, it just was too large behind the head.

I do occassionally work on the bike of someone else. So having things like the tool for removing center lock disks or some types of bottom brackets is something to have.Having the old two prong notch tool for removing 6 speed freehubs likewise. Once I sell off all of my excess bikes I will have to buy a roll around.

On 5/25/2022 2:36 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I was had the understanding that this WAS a bike specific Torx set. What else are they used on?

:-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 1:01:28 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> > On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
> >> > > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> > >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> > >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >> > >>>>>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
> >> > >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
> >> > >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
> >> > >>>>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
> >> > >>>>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
> >> > >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
> >> > >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >> > >>>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
> >> > >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
> >> > >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
> >> > >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
> >> > >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
> >> > >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
> >> > >>>>> thought we made it up.
> >> > >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
> >> > >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
> >> > >
> >> > > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
> >> > > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
> >> > > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
> >> > > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
> >> > >
> >> > That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
> >> > and now with one exception.
> >> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
> >> >
> >> > The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
> >> > span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
> >> > the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
> >> > carefully and follow those directions.
> >> >
> >> > Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
> >> > Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
> >> > longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
> >> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
> >
> >News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
> >
> >
> I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
> shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
> (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?

On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:31:41 PM UTC-4, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 1:01:28 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> > On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
> > >> > > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > >> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> > >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo..com wrote:
> > >> > >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> > >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
> > >> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
> > >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
> > >> > >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
> > >> > >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> > >> > >>>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
> > >> > >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
> > >> > >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
> > >> > >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
> > >> > >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
> > >> > >>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
> > >> > >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
> > >> > >>>>> thought we made it up.
> > >> > >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
> > >> > >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
> > >> > > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
> > >> > > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
> > >> > > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
> > >> > >
> > >> > That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
> > >> > and now with one exception.
> > >> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
> > >> >
> > >> > The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
> > >> > span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
> > >> > the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
> > >> > carefully and follow those directions.
> > >> >
> > >> > Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
> > >> > Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
> > >> > longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
> > >> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
> > >
> > >News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
> > >
> > >
> > I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
> > shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
> > (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
> > gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
> A comparison. Maybe valid. John, I am sure you are familiar with telephones and all the different dialing methods we have used over the decades. Mechanical STI is similar to rotary telephones dialing. Electronic STI is similar to push button phones. Maybe my comparison is stretching it a little bit. But you have to push, swing, the STI lever a half inch or so. With Di2 you just push the button and make it click. Not a huge difference. But you do notice it every time you click the Di2 button. Think back to the 1970s or 1980s, when the switch from rotary dials on phones changed to push button phones. Dialing the number was never difficult with rotary. It took a few extra seconds or so. Not as quick and easy. But nothing drastic. You talked on the phone for 5-10-15-20-30 minutes and you are worrying about the extra 15 seconds it took to dial the number???????? But everyone who made the switch from rotary to push button appreciated it and noticed the extra ease. Every time they dialed the phone.
>
> I've ridden bikes with no shifters (single speed), 3 speed thumb shifters on the handlebars, stem mounted shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters, Campagnolo Ergo mechanical, Shimano STI mechanical, and Shimano Di2 STI. They all work fine. But some are better and easier to use than others. For me, Di2 STI is at the top of the mountain

On Wed, 25 May 2022 06:10:59 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 8:01:28 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> > On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
>> >> > > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> > >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> > >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
>> >> > >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
>> >> > >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >> > >>>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
>> >> > >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
>> >> > >>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
>> >> > >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
>> >> > >>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
>> >> > >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
>> >> > >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
>> >> > >>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
>> >> > >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
>> >> > >>>>> thought we made it up.
>> >> > >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
>> >> > >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
>> >> > > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
>> >> > > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
>> >> > > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
>> >> > >
>> >> > That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
>> >> > and now with one exception.
>> >> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
>> >> >
>> >> > The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
>> >> > span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
>> >> > the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
>> >> > carefully and follow those directions.
>> >> >
>> >> > Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
>> >> > Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
>> >> > longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
>> >> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
>> >
>> >News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> and used wiring for which there are no spares since I believe that it contains 3 conductors and the shifting computer never worked properly. This is why the very next year Shimano totally redesigned the system from the ground up. This certainly gets tiresome. Why do you suppose that people that don't have any top end stuff always know all about it?
>> I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
>> shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
>> (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
>> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
>> There you are thundering down the road at, well say 15 mph, and you
>> push the button or wiggle the thingy, and the bike shifts. What more
>> is there?
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>For me it gets rid of all the cable/housing issues. Set up once and leave it. No (re)adjusting, sticky cables worn housings etc. YMMV.
>
>Lou

On Wed, 25 May 2022 16:31:39 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 1:01:28 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> > On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
>> >> > > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> > >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> > >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>> >> > >>>>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
>> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
>> >> > >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
>> >> > >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >> > >>>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
>> >> > >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
>> >> > >>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
>> >> > >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
>> >> > >>>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
>> >> > >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
>> >> > >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
>> >> > >>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
>> >> > >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
>> >> > >>>>> thought we made it up.
>> >> > >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
>> >> > >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
>> >> > > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
>> >> > > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
>> >> > > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
>> >> > >
>> >> > That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
>> >> > and now with one exception.
>> >> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
>> >> >
>> >> > The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
>> >> > span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
>> >> > the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
>> >> > carefully and follow those directions.
>> >> >
>> >> > Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
>> >> > Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
>> >> > longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
>> >> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
>> >
>> >News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
>> >
>> >
>> I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
>> shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
>> (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
>> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
>
>A comparison. Maybe valid. John, I am sure you are familiar with telephones and all the different dialing methods we have used over the decades. Mechanical STI is similar to rotary telephones dialing. Electronic STI is similar to push button phones. Maybe my comparison is stretching it a little bit. But you have to push, swing, the STI lever a half inch or so. With Di2 you just push the button and make it click. Not a huge difference. But you do notice it every time you click the Di2 button. Think back to the 1970s or 1980s, when the switch from rotary dials on phones changed to push button phones. Dialing the number was never difficult with rotary. It took a few extra seconds or so. Not as quick and easy. But nothing drastic. You talked on the phone for 5-10-15-20-30 minutes and you are worrying about the extra 15 seconds it took to dial the number???????? But everyone who made the switch from rotary to push button appreciated it and noticed the extra ease. Every
>time they dialed the phone.

On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:46:13 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:31:41 PM UTC-4, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 1:01:28 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> > On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >> > On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
>> > >> > > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> > >> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >> > >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > >> > >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >> > >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > >> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >> > >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> > >> > >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
>> > >> > >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
>> > >> > >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> > >> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
>> > >> > >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
>> > >> > >>>>>>>
>> > >> > >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
>> > >> > >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
>> > >> > >>>>>>>
>> > >> > >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
>> > >> > >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
>> > >> > >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
>> > >> > >>>>>>
>> > >> > >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
>> > >> > >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
>> > >> > >>>>> thought we made it up.
>> > >> > >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
>> > >> > >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
>> > >> > > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
>> > >> > > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
>> > >> > > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
>> > >> > and now with one exception.
>> > >> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
>> > >> >
>> > >> > The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
>> > >> > span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
>> > >> > the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
>> > >> > carefully and follow those directions.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
>> > >> > Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
>> > >> > longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
>> > >> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
>> > >
>> > >News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
>> > shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
>> > (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
>> > gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
>> A comparison. Maybe valid. John, I am sure you are familiar with telephones and all the different dialing methods we have used over the decades. Mechanical STI is similar to rotary telephones dialing. Electronic STI is similar to push button phones. Maybe my comparison is stretching it a little bit. But you have to push, swing, the STI lever a half inch or so. With Di2 you just push the button and make it click. Not a huge difference. But you do notice it every time you click the Di2 button. Think back to the 1970s or 1980s, when the switch from rotary dials on phones changed to push button phones. Dialing the number was never difficult with rotary. It took a few extra seconds or so. Not as quick and easy. But nothing drastic. You talked on the phone for 5-10-15-20-30 minutes and you are worrying about the extra 15 seconds it took to dial the number???????? But everyone who made the switch from rotary to push button appreciated it and noticed the extra ease. Every time they dialed
>the phone.
>>
>> I've ridden bikes with no shifters (single speed), 3 speed thumb shifters on the handlebars, stem mounted shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters, Campagnolo Ergo mechanical, Shimano STI mechanical, and Shimano Di2 STI. They all work fine. But some are better and easier to use than others. For me, Di2 STI is at the top of the mountain
>
>I would never say all shifters are equally easy to use. Even among friction shifting derailleurs, there used to be
>great differences. I think my first derailleur was a Huret of some kind. Changing to a SunTour was a revelation. And
>I remember watching friends grinding away with Campy Records while my bike just shifted quickly.
>
>But IMO there are other considerations besides "is it quicker". One consideration is, does the difference matter? Is it
>practical? Taking a full second to shift seems terrible. But the difference between 0.3 seconds and 0.2 seconds seems
>unimportant to me.

On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 25 May 2022 16:31:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 1:01:28 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> > On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
> >> >> > > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> >> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> > >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> >> > >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> > >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> > >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >> >> > >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
> >> >> > >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
> >> >> > >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >> >> > >>>>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
> >> >> > >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
> >> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
> >> >> > >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
> >> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
> >> >> > >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
> >> >> > >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock.. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
> >> >> > >>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
> >> >> > >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
> >> >> > >>>>> thought we made it up.
> >> >> > >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
> >> >> > >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
> >> >> > > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
> >> >> > > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
> >> >> > > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
> >> >> > and now with one exception.
> >> >> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
> >> >> > span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
> >> >> > the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
> >> >> > carefully and follow those directions.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
> >> >> > Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
> >> >> > longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
> >> >> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
> >> >
> >> >News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
> >> shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
> >> (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
> >> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
> >
> >A comparison. Maybe valid. John, I am sure you are familiar with telephones and all the different dialing methods we have used over the decades. Mechanical STI is similar to rotary telephones dialing. Electronic STI is similar to push button phones. Maybe my comparison is stretching it a little bit. But you have to push, swing, the STI lever a half inch or so. With Di2 you just push the button and make it click. Not a huge difference. But you do notice it every time you click the Di2 button. Think back to the 1970s or 1980s, when the switch from rotary dials on phones changed to push button phones. Dialing the number was never difficult with rotary. It took a few extra seconds or so. Not as quick and easy. But nothing drastic. You talked on the phone for 5-10-15-20-30 minutes and you are worrying about the extra 15 seconds it took to dial the number???????? But everyone who made the switch from rotary to push button appreciated it and noticed the extra ease. Every
> >time they dialed the phone.
> But, but, but... My grandparents had a no dial, no button, phone. It
> had a little crank on the side and you gave it a turn or two and a
> voice said, "number please" and you said something like "5522 please"
> and you were connected.

On Wed, 25 May 2022 20:48:38 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 16:31:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 1:01:28 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> > On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> > > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> >> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >> > >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> >> > >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> > >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> >> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> > >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>>
>> >> >> > >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
>> >> >> > >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>
>> >> >> > >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
>> >> >> > >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
>> >> >> > >>>>>>>
>> >> >> > >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
>> >> >> > >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
>> >> >> > >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
>> >> >> > >>>>>>
>> >> >> > >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
>> >> >> > >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
>> >> >> > >>>>> thought we made it up.
>> >> >> > >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
>> >> >> > >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
>> >> >> > > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
>> >> >> > > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
>> >> >> > > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
>> >> >> > and now with one exception.
>> >> >> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
>> >> >> > span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
>> >> >> > the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
>> >> >> > carefully and follow those directions.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
>> >> >> > Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
>> >> >> > longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
>> >> >> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
>> >> >
>> >> >News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
>> >> shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
>> >> (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
>> >> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
>> >
>> >A comparison. Maybe valid. John, I am sure you are familiar with telephones and all the different dialing methods we have used over the decades. Mechanical STI is similar to rotary telephones dialing. Electronic STI is similar to push button phones. Maybe my comparison is stretching it a little bit. But you have to push, swing, the STI lever a half inch or so. With Di2 you just push the button and make it click. Not a huge difference. But you do notice it every time you click the Di2 button. Think back to the 1970s or 1980s, when the switch from rotary dials on phones changed to push button phones. Dialing the number was never difficult with rotary. It took a few extra seconds or so. Not as quick and easy. But nothing drastic. You talked on the phone for 5-10-15-20-30 minutes and you are worrying about the extra 15 seconds it took to dial the number???????? But everyone who made the switch from rotary to push button appreciated it and noticed the extra ease. Every
>> >time they dialed the phone.
>> But, but, but... My grandparents had a no dial, no button, phone. It
>> had a little crank on the side and you gave it a turn or two and a
>> voice said, "number please" and you said something like "5522 please"
>> and you were connected.
>
>I've heard about telephones back when the dinosaurs roamed around eating people. Now days we have space age telekinetic laser telephone devices with flashlights that you can just push a few buttons (or places on the glass screens) and you make a call. Much easier than turning the little crank on the side of the phone. And no having to say "please" either. Because I am rude. And I would not be surprised if there are phones now days where you just say the name you want to call, and boom the call is made. You can't tell me that ain't better.
>
>
>>
>> Are all your buttons and bows simpler?
>> >
>> >I've ridden bikes with no shifters (single speed), 3 speed thumb shifters on the handlebars, stem mounted shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters, Campagnolo Ergo mechanical, Shimano STI mechanical, and Shimano Di2 STI. They all work fine. But some are better and easier to use than others. For me, Di2 STI is at the top of the mountain.
>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>> pile? Why?
>
>Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's whys better. You'll probably get the stock answer, "if you have to

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 12:06:20 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 25 May 2022 20:48:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Wed, 25 May 2022 16:31:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 1:01:28 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> >> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> >> > On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
> >> >> >> > > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> >> >> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> >> > >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> >> >> > >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> >> > >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >> >> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
> >> >> >> > >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
> >> >> >> > >>>>>>
> >> >> >> > >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
> >> >> >> > >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
> >> >> >> > >>>>> thought we made it up.
> >> >> >> > >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
> >> >> >> > >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> > >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
> >> >> >> > > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
> >> >> >> > > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
> >> >> >> > > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
> >> >> >> > and now with one exception.
> >> >> >> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
> >> >> >> > span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
> >> >> >> > the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
> >> >> >> > carefully and follow those directions.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
> >> >> >> > Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
> >> >> >> > longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
> >> >> >> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
> >> >> >
> >> >> >News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
> >> >> shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
> >> >> (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
> >> >> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
> >> >
> >> >A comparison. Maybe valid. John, I am sure you are familiar with telephones and all the different dialing methods we have used over the decades. Mechanical STI is similar to rotary telephones dialing. Electronic STI is similar to push button phones. Maybe my comparison is stretching it a little bit. But you have to push, swing, the STI lever a half inch or so. With Di2 you just push the button and make it click. Not a huge difference. But you do notice it every time you click the Di2 button. Think back to the 1970s or 1980s, when the switch from rotary dials on phones changed to push button phones. Dialing the number was never difficult with rotary. It took a few extra seconds or so. Not as quick and easy. But nothing drastic. You talked on the phone for 5-10-15-20-30 minutes and you are worrying about the extra 15 seconds it took to dial the number???????? But everyone who made the switch from rotary to push button appreciated it and noticed the extra ease. Every
> >> >time they dialed the phone.
> >> But, but, but... My grandparents had a no dial, no button, phone. It
> >> had a little crank on the side and you gave it a turn or two and a
> >> voice said, "number please" and you said something like "5522 please"
> >> and you were connected.
> >
> >I've heard about telephones back when the dinosaurs roamed around eating people. Now days we have space age telekinetic laser telephone devices with flashlights that you can just push a few buttons (or places on the glass screens) and you make a call. Much easier than turning the little crank on the side of the phone. And no having to say "please" either. Because I am rude. And I would not be surprised if there are phones now days where you just say the name you want to call, and boom the call is made. You can't tell me that ain't better.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Are all your buttons and bows simpler?
> >> >
> >> >I've ridden bikes with no shifters (single speed), 3 speed thumb shifters on the handlebars, stem mounted shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters, Campagnolo Ergo mechanical, Shimano STI mechanical, and Shimano Di2 STI. They all work fine. But some are better and easier to use than others. For me, Di2 STI is at the top of the mountain.
> >> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> >> pile? Why?
> >
> >Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's whys better. You'll probably get the stock answer, "if you have to
>
> You logic is irrefutable.
>
> But, if pressing a little button is what determines good or bad
> wouldn't it be even more "good" to just sit there on the couch and
> press the little button on the TV Remote?
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Wed, 25 May 2022 23:09:19 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 12:06:20 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 20:48:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 25 May 2022 16:31:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 1:01:28 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> >> > On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> >> > > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> >> >> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>>
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>>
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>> SRAM chains:
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>>
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
>> >> >> >> > >>>>>>
>> >> >> >> > >>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
>> >> >> >> > >>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
>> >> >> >> > >>>>> thought we made it up.
>> >> >> >> > >>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
>> >> >> >> > >>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
>> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> > >> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > > It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
>> >> >> >> > > chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
>> >> >> >> > > rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
>> >> >> >> > > Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
>> >> >> >> > and now with one exception.
>> >> >> >> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
>> >> >> >> > span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
>> >> >> >> > the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
>> >> >> >> > carefully and follow those directions.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
>> >> >> >> > Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
>> >> >> >> > longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
>> >> >> >> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
>> >> >> shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
>> >> >> (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
>> >> >> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
>> >> >
>> >> >A comparison. Maybe valid. John, I am sure you are familiar with telephones and all the different dialing methods we have used over the decades. Mechanical STI is similar to rotary telephones dialing. Electronic STI is similar to push button phones. Maybe my comparison is stretching it a little bit. But you have to push, swing, the STI lever a half inch or so. With Di2 you just push the button and make it click. Not a huge difference. But you do notice it every time you click the Di2 button. Think back to the 1970s or 1980s, when the switch from rotary dials on phones changed to push button phones. Dialing the number was never difficult with rotary. It took a few extra seconds or so. Not as quick and easy. But nothing drastic. You talked on the phone for 5-10-15-20-30 minutes and you are worrying about the extra 15 seconds it took to dial the number???????? But everyone who made the switch from rotary to push button appreciated it and noticed the extra ease. Every
>> >> >time they dialed the phone.
>> >> But, but, but... My grandparents had a no dial, no button, phone. It
>> >> had a little crank on the side and you gave it a turn or two and a
>> >> voice said, "number please" and you said something like "5522 please"
>> >> and you were connected.
>> >
>> >I've heard about telephones back when the dinosaurs roamed around eating people. Now days we have space age telekinetic laser telephone devices with flashlights that you can just push a few buttons (or places on the glass screens) and you make a call. Much easier than turning the little crank on the side of the phone. And no having to say "please" either. Because I am rude. And I would not be surprised if there are phones now days where you just say the name you want to call, and boom the call is made. You can't tell me that ain't better.
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Are all your buttons and bows simpler?
>> >> >
>> >> >I've ridden bikes with no shifters (single speed), 3 speed thumb shifters on the handlebars, stem mounted shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters, Campagnolo Ergo mechanical, Shimano STI mechanical, and Shimano Di2 STI. They all work fine. But some are better and easier to use than others. For me, Di2 STI is at the top of the mountain.
>> >> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>> >> pile? Why?
>> >
>> >Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's whys better. You'll probably get the stock answer, "if you have to
>>
>> You logic is irrefutable.
>>
>> But, if pressing a little button is what determines good or bad
>> wouldn't it be even more "good" to just sit there on the couch and
>> press the little button on the TV Remote?
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>But you don't get the exercise benefit of bicycling if you just sit on the couch watching TV. Of course I do push the remote button more than I push the Di2 button, so I guess my finger gets a little more exercise watching TV than bicycling. But enough with this nonsense. Shifting is not why you bicycle. Its just one of the extra tasks required to bicycle. Unless you ride a single speed. Kind of like oiling the chain. You are forced to do it. And thus all the magical chain waxing, oiling devices and/or solutions entrepreneurs have invented. Or braking. No one wants to use the brakes. But usually you are forced to apply the brakes. You have to take the good of exercising and seeing the sights by bicycling with the less pleasant tasks like shifting and braking and oiling. So its good to minimize even more so the non beneficial items.

On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
Snipped
> > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> > pile? Why?
> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
Snipped

I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.

I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.

Cheers

On 5/26/2022 1:32 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 25 May 2022 23:09:19 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 12:06:20 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 20:48:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 16:31:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 1:01:28 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SRAM chains:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought we made it up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
>>>>>>>>>>> chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
>>>>>>>>>>> rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
>>>>>>>>>>> Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
>>>>>>>>>> and now with one exception.
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
>>>>>>>>>> span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
>>>>>>>>>> the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
>>>>>>>>>> carefully and follow those directions.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
>>>>>>>>>> Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
>>>>>>>>>> longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
>>>>>>>>> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
>>>>>>> shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
>>>>>>> (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
>>>>>>> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A comparison. Maybe valid. John, I am sure you are familiar with telephones and all the different dialing methods we have used over the decades. Mechanical STI is similar to rotary telephones dialing. Electronic STI is similar to push button phones. Maybe my comparison is stretching it a little bit. But you have to push, swing, the STI lever a half inch or so. With Di2 you just push the button and make it click. Not a huge difference. But you do notice it every time you click the Di2 button. Think back to the 1970s or 1980s, when the switch from rotary dials on phones changed to push button phones. Dialing the number was never difficult with rotary. It took a few extra seconds or so. Not as quick and easy. But nothing drastic. You talked on the phone for 5-10-15-20-30 minutes and you are worrying about the extra 15 seconds it took to dial the number???????? But everyone who made the switch from rotary to push button appreciated it and noticed the extra ease. Every
>>>>>> time they dialed the phone.
>>>>> But, but, but... My grandparents had a no dial, no button, phone. It
>>>>> had a little crank on the side and you gave it a turn or two and a
>>>>> voice said, "number please" and you said something like "5522 please"
>>>>> and you were connected.
>>>>
>>>> I've heard about telephones back when the dinosaurs roamed around eating people. Now days we have space age telekinetic laser telephone devices with flashlights that you can just push a few buttons (or places on the glass screens) and you make a call. Much easier than turning the little crank on the side of the phone. And no having to say "please" either. Because I am rude. And I would not be surprised if there are phones now days where you just say the name you want to call, and boom the call is made. You can't tell me that ain't better.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Are all your buttons and bows simpler?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've ridden bikes with no shifters (single speed), 3 speed thumb shifters on the handlebars, stem mounted shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters, Campagnolo Ergo mechanical, Shimano STI mechanical, and Shimano Di2 STI. They all work fine. But some are better and easier to use than others. For me, Di2 STI is at the top of the mountain.
>>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>>>>> pile? Why?
>>>>
>>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's whys better. You'll probably get the stock answer, "if you have to
>>>
>>> You logic is irrefutable.
>>>
>>> But, if pressing a little button is what determines good or bad
>>> wouldn't it be even more "good" to just sit there on the couch and
>>> press the little button on the TV Remote?
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> But you don't get the exercise benefit of bicycling if you just sit on the couch watching TV. Of course I do push the remote button more than I push the Di2 button, so I guess my finger gets a little more exercise watching TV than bicycling. But enough with this nonsense. Shifting is not why you bicycle. Its just one of the extra tasks required to bicycle. Unless you ride a single speed. Kind of like oiling the chain. You are forced to do it. And thus all the magical chain waxing, oiling devices and/or solutions entrepreneurs have invented. Or braking. No one wants to use the brakes. But usually you are forced to apply the brakes. You have to take the good of exercising and seeing the sights by bicycling with the less pleasant tasks like shifting and braking and oiling. So its good to minimize even more so the non beneficial items.
>
> "Shifting is not why you bicycle."
>
> Exactly, thus my original question
> "I move the handle and the bike shifts
> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?"
>
> In fact I can't even remember shifting. I live on a hill so I must
> have but it wasn't something that was especially memorable.
> And in Bangkok I shift twice in a 20 km ride (:-)
>
>

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 2:26:24 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/26/2022 1:32 AM, John B. wrote:

..
> >
> > "Shifting is not why you bicycle."
> >
> > Exactly, thus my original question
> > "I move the handle and the bike shifts
> > gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?"
> >
> > In fact I can't even remember shifting. I live on a hill so I must
> > have but it wasn't something that was especially memorable.
> > And in Bangkok I shift twice in a 20 km ride (:-)
> >
> >
> I move my hands (typically folding my newspaper, hands off
> bars) all the while and my fixie never shifts. Mr Seaton has
> different needs and viewpoints and standards and for him the
> Di2 system is preferable. Where shift response is important,
> modern gear systems are excellent.
>
> If I might venture further, cycling becomes more fulfilling
> the less one thinks about the machine itself. That's how it
> works for me anyway.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

After a valid initial question John spend multiple posts explaining why he doesn't need Di2/Di2 has no added value for him. As if we were forcing him to use Di2. Story of his life. All noise.

Lou

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> Snipped
> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> > > pile? Why?
> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> Snipped
>
> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>
> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
>
> Cheers

That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.

Lou