On 5/27/2022 9:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/27/2022 2:56 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>
>> Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>> russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Snipped
>>>>>>>>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top
>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>> pile? Why?
>>>>>>>>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM
>>>>>>>>>> BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
>>>>>>>>> Snipped
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles
>>>>>>>>> with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I
>>>>>>>>> shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with
>>>>>>>>> downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so
>>>>>>>>> when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces
>>>>>>>>> fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that
>>>>>>>>> means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow
>>>>>>>>> for easier and faster shifting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this
>>>>>>>> to the next level.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
>>>>>>> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
>>>>>>> faster?
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The
>>>>>> exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to
>>>>>> your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment
>>>>>> is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty
>>>>>> at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the
>>>>>> benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the
>>>>>> detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to
>>>>>> work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is
>>>>>> one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric
>>>>>> shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big
>>>>>> negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would.
>>>>>> Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate
>>>>>> or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic
>>>>>> shifting, why wouldn't you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic
>>>>>> transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and
>>>>>> people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one
>>>>>> wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single
>>>>>> car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore.
>>>>>> Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books
>>>>>> to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the
>>>>>> same.
>>>>> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
>>>>> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
>>>>>> Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions.
>>>>>> Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands.
>>>>>> Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into
>>>>>> its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually
>>>>>> shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving
>>>>>> and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people
>>>>>> want and buy with their money.
>>>>> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
>>>>> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
>>>>> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
>>>>
>>>> No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all
>>>> just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once
>>>> you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier,
>>>> more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual
>>>> and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and
>>>> realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even
>>>> though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it
>>>> burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
>>>>> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
>>>>> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
>>>>> today you do it without thinking.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other
>>>> utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After
>>>> spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very
>>>> wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people
>>>> eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to
>>>> that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to
>>>> cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my
>>>> ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat
>>>> with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no
>>>> comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
>>> Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
>>> (:-)
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat
>> food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
>>
>> Lou
>>
>
> They're not. It's a simple easily mastered skill. Children do it
> gracefully!

Those children are geniuses. They even learn to speak Chinese!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/26/2022 11:54 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.

I went a step beyond you. I read about the European style of utensil use
before our first trip to continental Europe and made an effort to learn
their way. Yes, there's some logic to it - two hands, two utensils, no
juggling.

But it still seemed weird. Bringing sharp fork tines toward my face with
my non-dominant hand? That's dangerous! And holding the fork concave
downward? That's a violation of elementary geometry! Do they do the same
with a soup spoon?

Ultimately I decided it was most sensible to rotate the entire system
180 degrees about the forward axis. My fork now stays in my right hand,
and is used concave upward so it works for, say, scooping mashed
potatoes. My knife stays in my left hand, and I slice meat using my left
hand. There's no juggling of utensils, so it's efficient.

I now score a new KOM for eating most of my meals, and we all know how
important that it! But I still have to wait for my wife to finish.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 4:23:21 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:56:44 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
> > > On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> > > >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > > >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell....@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > >> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > >> >> >> Snipped
> > > >> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> > > >> >> >> > > pile? Why?
> > > >> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> > > >> >> >> Snipped
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> Cheers
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >Lou
> > > >> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> > > >> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> > > >> >> faster?
> > > >> >> --
> > > >> >> Cheers,
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> John B.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> > > >> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
> > > >> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
> > > >> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
> > > >> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
> > > >> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
> > > >> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
> > > >
> > > >No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
> > > >> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
> > > >> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
> > > >> today you do it without thinking.
> > > >> --
> > > >> Cheers,
> > > >>
> > > >> John B.
> > > >
> > > >Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> > > Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
> > > (:-)
> > > --
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > John B.
> > Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
> >
> > Lou
> For eating Chinese food, the way it is supposed to be prepared, chopsticks are in fact easier to use than tableware and easier to clean up after.

You mean sticky rice? Ok. You forgot to mention that you also have to adapt the way you eat: bring the bowl to your mouth and shove or slurp the stuff in. Disgusting. Pasta is no better. They can make that stuff in any form, it is all the same, but they choose the most inconvenient shape to eat: spaghetti. All my Chinese colleagues don't use chopsticks anymore BTW. How is that? It is just folklore now and/or to show off by the non Chinese people..

Lou

On 5/27/2022 1:02 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 4:23:21 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:56:44 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>>>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Snipped
>>>>>>>>>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> pile? Why?
>>>>>>>>>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
>>>>>>>>>> Snipped
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
>>>>>>>> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
>>>>>>>> faster?
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
>>>>>> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
>>>>>> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
>>>>>>> Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
>>>>>> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
>>>>>> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
>>>>>> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
>>>>>
>>>>> No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
>>>>>> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
>>>>>> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
>>>>>> today you do it without thinking.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>
>>>>> Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
>>>> Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
>>>> (:-)
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>> Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
>>>
>>> Lou
>> For eating Chinese food, the way it is supposed to be prepared, chopsticks are in fact easier to use than tableware and easier to clean up after.
>
> You mean sticky rice? Ok. You forgot to mention that you also have to adapt the way you eat: bring the bowl to your mouth and shove or slurp the stuff in. Disgusting. Pasta is no better. They can make that stuff in any form, it is all the same, but they choose the most inconvenient shape to eat: spaghetti. All my Chinese colleagues don't use chopsticks anymore BTW. How is that? It is just folklore now and/or to show off by the non Chinese people.
>
> Lou
>

in re spaghetti, people do mange somehow:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/cinecitt.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

,,On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 8:31:34 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/27/2022 1:02 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 4:23:21 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:56:44 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
> >>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> >>>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Snipped
> >>>>>>>>>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> pile? Why?
> >>>>>>>>>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> >>>>>>>>>> Snipped
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike.. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>>>> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> >>>>>>>> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> >>>>>>>> faster?
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> >>>>>> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
> >>>>>> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
> >>>>>>> Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
> >>>>>> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
> >>>>>> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
> >>>>>> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
> >>>>>> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
> >>>>>> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
> >>>>>> today you do it without thinking.
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> >>>> Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
> >>>> (:-)
> >>>> --
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> John B.
> >>> Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >> For eating Chinese food, the way it is supposed to be prepared, chopsticks are in fact easier to use than tableware and easier to clean up after.
> >
> > You mean sticky rice? Ok. You forgot to mention that you also have to adapt the way you eat: bring the bowl to your mouth and shove or slurp the stuff in. Disgusting. Pasta is no better. They can make that stuff in any form, it is all the same, but they choose the most inconvenient shape to eat: spaghetti. All my Chinese colleagues don't use chopsticks anymore BTW. How is that? It is just folklore now and/or to show off by the non Chinese people.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> in re spaghetti, people do mange somehow:
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/cinecitt.jpg
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

See, she is struggling. I rest my case ;-)

Lou

On 5/27/2022 2:02 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> Pasta is no better. They can make that stuff in any form, it is all the same, but they choose the most inconvenient shape to eat: spaghetti.

Eating it is a skill. You can learn. Practice!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/27/2022 1:39 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> ,,On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 8:31:34 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/27/2022 1:02 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 4:23:21 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:56:44 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>>>>>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Snipped
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pile? Why?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Snipped
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>>> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
>>>>>>>>>> faster?
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
>>>>>>>> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
>>>>>>>> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
>>>>>>>> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
>>>>>>>> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
>>>>>>>> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
>>>>>>>> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
>>>>>>>> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
>>>>>>>> today you do it without thinking.
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
>>>>>> Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
>>>>>> (:-)
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>> Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>> For eating Chinese food, the way it is supposed to be prepared, chopsticks are in fact easier to use than tableware and easier to clean up after.
>>>
>>> You mean sticky rice? Ok. You forgot to mention that you also have to adapt the way you eat: bring the bowl to your mouth and shove or slurp the stuff in. Disgusting. Pasta is no better. They can make that stuff in any form, it is all the same, but they choose the most inconvenient shape to eat: spaghetti. All my Chinese colleagues don't use chopsticks anymore BTW. How is that? It is just folklore now and/or to show off by the non Chinese people.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>> in re spaghetti, people do mange somehow:
>>
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/cinecitt.jpg

> See, she is struggling. I rest my case ;-)
>
> Lou
>

She looks good trying. I rest mine!

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 11:02:50 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 4:23:21 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:56:44 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
> > > > On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > > >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > > >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > > >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> > > > >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell....@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> Snipped
> > > > >> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> > > > >> >> >> > > pile? Why?
> > > > >> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> > > > >> >> >> Snipped
> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >> Cheers
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >Lou
> > > > >> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> > > > >> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> > > > >> >> faster?
> > > > >> >> --
> > > > >> >> Cheers,
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> John B.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> > > > >> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
> > > > >> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
> > > > >> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
> > > > >> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
> > > > >> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
> > > > >> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
> > > > >
> > > > >No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
> > > > >> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
> > > > >> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
> > > > >> today you do it without thinking.
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> John B.
> > > > >
> > > > >Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> > > > Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
> > > > (:-)
> > > > --
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > John B.
> > > Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
> > >
> > > Lou
> > For eating Chinese food, the way it is supposed to be prepared, chopsticks are in fact easier to use than tableware and easier to clean up after.
> You mean sticky rice? Ok. You forgot to mention that you also have to adapt the way you eat: bring the bowl to your mouth and shove or slurp the stuff in. Disgusting. Pasta is no better. They can make that stuff in any form, it is all the same, but they choose the most inconvenient shape to eat: spaghetti. All my Chinese colleagues don't use chopsticks anymore BTW. How is that? It is just folklore now and/or to show off by the non Chinese people.

Let me guess - you don't have any idea if they were born in the EU. And if not, what they eat at home and how? Your comments about spagetti gives me the Idea that you have an extremely conservative outlook on food. What do you think of Sushi - raw fish - often eaten by hand or chop sticks? I have an extremely wide appreciation for foods and their native methods of eating. What do you think of eating a taco in a hard corn flour tortilla? They break apart and drop part of the contents into your lap. What about the Indian method of eating most of their food by hand with Naan (a flat bread)?

You are entitled to your opinion and from my point of view it is probably the cleanest method of eating but I can wash my hands before and after I eat..

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 11:31:34 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/27/2022 1:02 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 4:23:21 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:56:44 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
> >>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> >>>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Snipped
> >>>>>>>>>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> pile? Why?
> >>>>>>>>>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> >>>>>>>>>> Snipped
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike.. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>>>> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> >>>>>>>> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> >>>>>>>> faster?
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> >>>>>> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
> >>>>>> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
> >>>>>>> Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
> >>>>>> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
> >>>>>> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
> >>>>>> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
> >>>>>> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
> >>>>>> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
> >>>>>> today you do it without thinking.
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> >>>> Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
> >>>> (:-)
> >>>> --
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> John B.
> >>> Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >> For eating Chinese food, the way it is supposed to be prepared, chopsticks are in fact easier to use than tableware and easier to clean up after.
> >
> > You mean sticky rice? Ok. You forgot to mention that you also have to adapt the way you eat: bring the bowl to your mouth and shove or slurp the stuff in. Disgusting. Pasta is no better. They can make that stuff in any form, it is all the same, but they choose the most inconvenient shape to eat: spaghetti. All my Chinese colleagues don't use chopsticks anymore BTW. How is that? It is just folklore now and/or to show off by the non Chinese people.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> in re spaghetti, people do mange somehow:
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/cinecitt.jpg
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

+1

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 11:39:45 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> ,,On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 8:31:34 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 5/27/2022 1:02 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 4:23:21 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:56:44 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >>> Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
> > >>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > >>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > >>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> > >>>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell....@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> Snipped
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> pile? Why?
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> > >>>>>>>>>> Snipped
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Cheers
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Lou
> > >>>>>>>> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> > >>>>>>>> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> > >>>>>>>> faster?
> > >>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> John B.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> > >>>>>> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
> > >>>>>> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
> > >>>>>>> Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
> > >>>>>> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
> > >>>>>> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
> > >>>>>> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
> > >>>>>> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
> > >>>>>> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
> > >>>>>> today you do it without thinking.
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> John B.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> > >>>> Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
> > >>>> (:-)
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> John B.
> > >>> Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
> > >>>
> > >>> Lou
> > >> For eating Chinese food, the way it is supposed to be prepared, chopsticks are in fact easier to use than tableware and easier to clean up after.
> > >
> > > You mean sticky rice? Ok. You forgot to mention that you also have to adapt the way you eat: bring the bowl to your mouth and shove or slurp the stuff in. Disgusting. Pasta is no better. They can make that stuff in any form, it is all the same, but they choose the most inconvenient shape to eat: spaghetti. All my Chinese colleagues don't use chopsticks anymore BTW. How is that? It is just folklore now and/or to show off by the non Chinese people.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > >
> > in re spaghetti, people do mange somehow:
> >
> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/cinecitt.jpg
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> See, she is struggling. I rest my case ;-)

On Fri, 27 May 2022 11:02:48 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 4:23:21 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:56:44 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
>> > > On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> > > >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> > > >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >>
>> > > >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> > > >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> > > >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> > > >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > > >> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> > > >> >> >> Snipped
>> > > >> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>> > > >> >> >> > > pile? Why?
>> > > >> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
>> > > >> >> >> Snipped
>> > > >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>> > > >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
>> > > >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> Cheers
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >Lou
>> > > >> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
>> > > >> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
>> > > >> >> faster?
>> > > >> >> --
>> > > >> >> Cheers,
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> John B.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
>> > > >> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
>> > > >> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
>> > > >> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
>> > > >> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
>> > > >> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
>> > > >> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
>> > > >
>> > > >No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
>> > > >> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
>> > > >> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
>> > > >> today you do it without thinking.
>> > > >> --
>> > > >> Cheers,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> John B.
>> > > >
>> > > >Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
>> > > Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
>> > > (:-)
>> > > --
>> > > Cheers,
>> > >
>> > > John B.
>> > Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
>> >
>> > Lou
>> For eating Chinese food, the way it is supposed to be prepared, chopsticks are in fact easier to use than tableware and easier to clean up after.
>
>You mean sticky rice? Ok. You forgot to mention that you also have to adapt the way you eat: bring the bowl to your mouth and shove or slurp the stuff in. Disgusting. Pasta is no better. They can make that stuff in any form, it is all the same, but they choose the most inconvenient shape to eat: spaghetti. All my Chinese colleagues don't use chopsticks anymore BTW. How is that? It is just folklore now and/or to show off by the non Chinese people.
>
>Lou

Well, rice is sticky... normally. And yes I do know that the "white
folks" have developed a rice that isn't sticky but I can assure you
that no one who "eats" rice would touch it with a barge pole. To say
nothing about "chop sticks".

Good Lord! You people eat meat, practically raw, with the blood
dripping out. What sort of savages are you (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:44:44 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2022 21:04:23 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 10:12:54 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 5/26/2022 8:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> >> By your analogy, we should be barely riding bikes at all. After all,
> >> most people do it only a few times per year. By "voting" with their
> >> pocket books for cars instead of bikes, they're saying biking is not
> >> worth doing.
> >
> >You missed my prior responses to John about the benefits of bicycling being exercise.
> Yes, I read that and neglected to reply. But yes cycling is a form of
> exercise... albeit not a very good form.

I'd argue with that one. Bicycling is very aerobic. And helps improve leg muscles. Although as you state, not weight bearing, so no bone improvement.

> Well, other then good being
> better then just sitting there on the couch.
>
> Bicycleing, not being a weight bearing exercise is of little benefit
> to the bones and as you grow older your bones become weaker and thus
> weight bearing exercises - try walking, jogging or running - become
> more and more important to your health.
> Or weight lifting (:-)
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 2:56:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
> > On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> > >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >> >> >> Snipped
> > >> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> > >> >> >> > > pile? Why?
> > >> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> > >> >> >> Snipped
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike.. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Cheers
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Lou
> > >> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> > >> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> > >> >> faster?
> > >> >> --
> > >> >> Cheers,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> John B.
> > >> >
> > >> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
> > >> >
> > >> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> > >> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
> > >> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
> > >> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
> > >> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
> > >> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
> > >> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
> > >
> > >No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
> > >> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
> > >> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
> > >> today you do it without thinking.
> > >> --
> > >> Cheers,
> > >>
> > >> John B.
> > >
> > >Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> > Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
> > (:-)
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John B.
> Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
>
> Lou

I'm guessing, just guessing, that chopsticks were developed due to economics. No one in Asia had any money to buy, make, metal eating utensils. And everyone has to eat. So cheapest way to eat was to use some easy to find/make sticks. Or eat with your hands and fingers. Which is likely the way everyone else in the world did. Before metalworking and metal utensils became the mainstay.

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 10:34:29 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/27/2022 12:04 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > My analogy is to explain the benefit of Di2 electronic shifters to eliminate the arduous task of manually shifting. Easier to shift. I have had bikes with stem shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters. All manual. And shifting was not too arduous. But sometimes even the tiniest improvement is worth doing.
> Yes, I can give examples of the tiniest improvement _sometimes_ being
> worth doing. A musical example might be a violin E string that tends to
> whistle instead of sounding clearly. Changing to a different brand of
> string might cure that, even though the differences are literally
> invisible. A bicycling example might be a gearing system that allows a
> racer to react almost instantaneously to a competitor's sudden
> acceleration, and perhaps allow a race victory.
>
> _Sometimes_ those things happen. IOW, sometimes the benefits exceed the
> detriments.
>
> But on the other hand, what are the benefits a rider like Tom will get
> from Di2? He apparently goes out and flogs himself up hills and looks at
> his Strava data later. Would touching a button rather than slightly
> moving a lever take even a few seconds off his time? And what would be
> the real benefit even if it did?
>
> I understand the claims about ease of installation and no requirement of
> periodic adjustment or tuning. But normal people do installation just
> once, and only rarely need to turn a barrel adjuster half a turn.
>
> ISTM that switching to Di2 would be like trading in one's big screen TV.
> Not because the new one was bigger or had a better picture or could get
> more content. Instead, because the buttons on the new remote had a nicer
> click.
> > Kind of like if I see a penny on the ground I stop and reach down and pick it up. Even though one penny is almost infinitesimally irrelevant to me..
> Good example. I let the pennies lie there for kids to find.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Huh. Maybe because I am a greedy self centered person, I had never ever thought of leaving a penny or any other coin on the ground for a kid to find. Now you are going to make me fret and ponder over this the next time I see a coin on the ground. Dang nab it!!!!!

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 10:54:24 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/26/2022 11:54 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> I went a step beyond you. I read about the European style of utensil use
> before our first trip to continental Europe and made an effort to learn
> their way. Yes, there's some logic to it - two hands, two utensils, no
> juggling.
>
> But it still seemed weird. Bringing sharp fork tines toward my face with
> my non-dominant hand? That's dangerous! And holding the fork concave
> downward? That's a violation of elementary geometry! Do they do the same
> with a soup spoon?
>
> Ultimately I decided it was most sensible to rotate the entire system
> 180 degrees about the forward axis. My fork now stays in my right hand,
> and is used concave upward so it works for, say, scooping mashed
> potatoes. My knife stays in my left hand, and I slice meat using my left
> hand. There's no juggling of utensils, so it's efficient.
>
> I now score a new KOM for eating most of my meals, and we all know how
> important that it! But I still have to wait for my wife to finish.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

I ended up like you. Fork in the dominant hand and knife for cutting in the off hand. And fork tines pointed up. I saw as you the way it was done in Europe. Fork in the non dominant hand? Tines down? Maybe sticking a piece of meat on the plate and maneuvering it to the mouth is easier with tines down. But for shoveling in mashed potatoes and peas and sticking green beans, tines up seems better.

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 1:42:04 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 11:02:50 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 4:23:21 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:56:44 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
> > > > > On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > > > >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > > > >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > > > >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> > > > > >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > > > > >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > >> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B.. wrote:
> > > > > >> >> >> Snipped
> > > > > >> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> > > > > >> >> >> > > pile? Why?
> > > > > >> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> > > > > >> >> >> Snipped
> > > > > >> >> >>
> > > > > >> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> > > > > >> >> >>
> > > > > >> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> > > > > >> >> >>
> > > > > >> >> >> Cheers
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> >Lou
> > > > > >> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> > > > > >> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> > > > > >> >> faster?
> > > > > >> >> --
> > > > > >> >> Cheers,
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> John B.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> > > > > >> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
> > > > > >> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
> > > > > >> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
> > > > > >> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
> > > > > >> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
> > > > > >> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
> > > > > >> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
> > > > > >> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
> > > > > >> today you do it without thinking.
> > > > > >> --
> > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> John B.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric.. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> > > > > Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
> > > > > (:-)
> > > > > --
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > >
> > > > > John B.
> > > > Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > For eating Chinese food, the way it is supposed to be prepared, chopsticks are in fact easier to use than tableware and easier to clean up after..
> > You mean sticky rice? Ok. You forgot to mention that you also have to adapt the way you eat: bring the bowl to your mouth and shove or slurp the stuff in. Disgusting. Pasta is no better. They can make that stuff in any form, it is all the same, but they choose the most inconvenient shape to eat: spaghetti. All my Chinese colleagues don't use chopsticks anymore BTW. How is that? It is just folklore now and/or to show off by the non Chinese people.
> Let me guess - you don't have any idea if they were born in the EU. And if not, what they eat at home and how? Your comments about spagetti gives me the Idea that you have an extremely conservative outlook on food. What do you think of Sushi - raw fish - often eaten by hand or chop sticks? I have an extremely wide appreciation for foods and their native methods of eating.. What do you think of eating a taco in a hard corn flour tortilla? They break apart and drop part of the contents into your lap. What about the Indian method of eating most of their food by hand with Naan (a flat bread)?
>
> You are entitled to your opinion and from my point of view it is probably the cleanest method of eating but I can wash my hands before and after I eat.

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 7:52:38 AM UTC+2, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 2:56:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
> > > On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> > > >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > > >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell....@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > >> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > >> >> >> Snipped
> > > >> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> > > >> >> >> > > pile? Why?
> > > >> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> > > >> >> >> Snipped
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> Cheers
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >Lou
> > > >> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> > > >> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> > > >> >> faster?
> > > >> >> --
> > > >> >> Cheers,
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> John B.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> > > >> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
> > > >> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
> > > >> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
> > > >> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
> > > >> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
> > > >> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
> > > >
> > > >No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
> > > >> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
> > > >> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
> > > >> today you do it without thinking.
> > > >> --
> > > >> Cheers,
> > > >>
> > > >> John B.
> > > >
> > > >Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> > > Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
> > > (:-)
> > > --
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > John B.
> > Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
> >
> > Lou
> I'm guessing, just guessing, that chopsticks were developed due to economics. No one in Asia had any money to buy, make, metal eating utensils. And everyone has to eat. So cheapest way to eat was to use some easy to find/make sticks. Or eat with your hands and fingers. Which is likely the way everyone else in the world did. Before metalworking and metal utensils became the mainstay.

I always thought it had something to do with hygiene. Throw them away after you were done. I could be wrong.

Lou

On Fri, 27 May 2022 22:49:11 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:44:44 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 21:04:23 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 10:12:54 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> On 5/26/2022 8:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
>> >> By your analogy, we should be barely riding bikes at all. After all,
>> >> most people do it only a few times per year. By "voting" with their
>> >> pocket books for cars instead of bikes, they're saying biking is not
>> >> worth doing.
>> >
>> >You missed my prior responses to John about the benefits of bicycling being exercise.
>> Yes, I read that and neglected to reply. But yes cycling is a form of
>> exercise... albeit not a very good form.
>
>I'd argue with that one. Bicycling is very aerobic. And helps improve leg muscles. Although as you state, not weight bearing, so no bone improvement.
>

But not as good as running or jogging, or even walking if you do it at
a military marching rate. Try it, 3 MPH for, well say 5 miles, every
morning before breakfast (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 27 May 2022 22:57:47 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 10:34:29 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/27/2022 12:04 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > My analogy is to explain the benefit of Di2 electronic shifters to eliminate the arduous task of manually shifting. Easier to shift. I have had bikes with stem shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters. All manual. And shifting was not too arduous. But sometimes even the tiniest improvement is worth doing.
>> Yes, I can give examples of the tiniest improvement _sometimes_ being
>> worth doing. A musical example might be a violin E string that tends to
>> whistle instead of sounding clearly. Changing to a different brand of
>> string might cure that, even though the differences are literally
>> invisible. A bicycling example might be a gearing system that allows a
>> racer to react almost instantaneously to a competitor's sudden
>> acceleration, and perhaps allow a race victory.
>>
>> _Sometimes_ those things happen. IOW, sometimes the benefits exceed the
>> detriments.
>>
>> But on the other hand, what are the benefits a rider like Tom will get
>> from Di2? He apparently goes out and flogs himself up hills and looks at
>> his Strava data later. Would touching a button rather than slightly
>> moving a lever take even a few seconds off his time? And what would be
>> the real benefit even if it did?
>>
>> I understand the claims about ease of installation and no requirement of
>> periodic adjustment or tuning. But normal people do installation just
>> once, and only rarely need to turn a barrel adjuster half a turn.
>>
>> ISTM that switching to Di2 would be like trading in one's big screen TV.
>> Not because the new one was bigger or had a better picture or could get
>> more content. Instead, because the buttons on the new remote had a nicer
>> click.
>> > Kind of like if I see a penny on the ground I stop and reach down and pick it up. Even though one penny is almost infinitesimally irrelevant to me.
>> Good example. I let the pennies lie there for kids to find.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
>Huh. Maybe because I am a greedy self centered person, I had never ever thought of leaving a penny or any other coin on the ground for a kid to find. Now you are going to make me fret and ponder over this the next time I see a coin on the ground. Dang nab it!!!!!

Way back when I was a lad my mother had a saying, "see a penny, pick
it up and all the day you'll have good luck. See a penny and let it
lay and all your luck will go away". :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 27 May 2022 22:52:36 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 2:56:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
>> > On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> > >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> > >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> > >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> > >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> > >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > >> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> > >> >> >> Snipped
>> > >> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>> > >> >> >> > > pile? Why?
>> > >> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
>> > >> >> >> Snipped
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> Cheers
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >Lou
>> > >> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
>> > >> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
>> > >> >> faster?
>> > >> >> --
>> > >> >> Cheers,
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> John B.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
>> > >> >
>> > >> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
>> > >> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
>> > >> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
>> > >> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
>> > >> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
>> > >> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
>> > >> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
>> > >
>> > >No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
>> > >> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
>> > >> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
>> > >> today you do it without thinking.
>> > >> --
>> > >> Cheers,
>> > >>
>> > >> John B.
>> > >
>> > >Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
>> > Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
>> > (:-)
>> > --
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > John B.
>> Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
>>
>> Lou
>
>I'm guessing, just guessing, that chopsticks were developed due to economics. No one in Asia had any money to buy, make, metal eating utensils. And everyone has to eat. So cheapest way to eat was to use some easy to find/make sticks. Or eat with your hands and fingers. Which is likely the way everyone else in the world did. Before metalworking and metal utensils became the mainstay.

Out of curiosity I googled it and it seems that the Chinese were using
"chop sticks" since, at least, 1200 BC and by 500 AD they were common
from Japan to Vietnam.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 28 May 2022 00:13:05 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 7:52:38 AM UTC+2, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 2:56:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
>> > > On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> > > >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> > > >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >>
>> > > >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> > > >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> > > >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> > > >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > > >> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> > > >> >> >> Snipped
>> > > >> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>> > > >> >> >> > > pile? Why?
>> > > >> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
>> > > >> >> >> Snipped
>> > > >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>> > > >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
>> > > >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> Cheers
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >Lou
>> > > >> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
>> > > >> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
>> > > >> >> faster?
>> > > >> >> --
>> > > >> >> Cheers,
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> John B.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
>> > > >> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
>> > > >> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
>> > > >> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
>> > > >> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
>> > > >> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
>> > > >> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
>> > > >
>> > > >No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
>> > > >> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
>> > > >> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
>> > > >> today you do it without thinking.
>> > > >> --
>> > > >> Cheers,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> John B.
>> > > >
>> > > >Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
>> > > Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
>> > > (:-)
>> > > --
>> > > Cheers,
>> > >
>> > > John B.
>> > Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
>> >
>> > Lou
>> I'm guessing, just guessing, that chopsticks were developed due to economics. No one in Asia had any money to buy, make, metal eating utensils. And everyone has to eat. So cheapest way to eat was to use some easy to find/make sticks. Or eat with your hands and fingers. Which is likely the way everyone else in the world did. Before metalworking and metal utensils became the mainstay.
>
>I always thought it had something to do with hygiene. Throw them away after you were done. I could be wrong.
>
>Lou

No, in Asian homes where "chop sticks" are used ivory, plastic, or
other non wooden, ones are commonly used. The wooden ones are most
common in restaurants and thrown away after use.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 1:57:48 a.m. UTC-4, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 10:34:29 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 5/27/2022 12:04 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > My analogy is to explain the benefit of Di2 electronic shifters to eliminate the arduous task of manually shifting. Easier to shift. I have had bikes with stem shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters. All manual. And shifting was not too arduous. But sometimes even the tiniest improvement is worth doing.
> > Yes, I can give examples of the tiniest improvement _sometimes_ being
> > worth doing. A musical example might be a violin E string that tends to
> > whistle instead of sounding clearly. Changing to a different brand of
> > string might cure that, even though the differences are literally
> > invisible. A bicycling example might be a gearing system that allows a
> > racer to react almost instantaneously to a competitor's sudden
> > acceleration, and perhaps allow a race victory.
> >
> > _Sometimes_ those things happen. IOW, sometimes the benefits exceed the
> > detriments.
> >
> > But on the other hand, what are the benefits a rider like Tom will get
> > from Di2? He apparently goes out and flogs himself up hills and looks at
> > his Strava data later. Would touching a button rather than slightly
> > moving a lever take even a few seconds off his time? And what would be
> > the real benefit even if it did?
> >
> > I understand the claims about ease of installation and no requirement of
> > periodic adjustment or tuning. But normal people do installation just
> > once, and only rarely need to turn a barrel adjuster half a turn.
> >
> > ISTM that switching to Di2 would be like trading in one's big screen TV..
> > Not because the new one was bigger or had a better picture or could get
> > more content. Instead, because the buttons on the new remote had a nicer
> > click.
> > > Kind of like if I see a penny on the ground I stop and reach down and pick it up. Even though one penny is almost infinitesimally irrelevant to me.
> > Good example. I let the pennies lie there for kids to find.
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Huh. Maybe because I am a greedy self centered person, I had never ever thought of leaving a penny or any other coin on the ground for a kid to find.. Now you are going to make me fret and ponder over this the next time I see a coin on the ground. Dang nab it!!!!!

Canada doesn't have pennies anymore; the lowest denomination coin is now the 5 cents nickel.

Cheers

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 5:04:17 a.m. UTC-4, John B. wrote:
Snipped
> Way back when I was a lad my mother had a saying, "see a penny, pick
> it up and all the day you'll have good luck. See a penny and let it
> lay and all your luck will go away". :-)
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

See a penny and go to pick it up
You might get hit by a truck.

Cheers

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 12:10:16 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 1:42:04 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 11:02:50 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 4:23:21 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:56:44 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
> > > > > > On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > > > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > > > > >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > > > > >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> > > > > > >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> >> Snipped
> > > > > > >> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> > > > > > >> >> >> > > pile? Why?
> > > > > > >> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> > > > > > >> >> >> Snipped
> > > > > > >> >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> > > > > > >> >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> > > > > > >> >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >> Cheers
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> >Lou
> > > > > > >> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> > > > > > >> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> > > > > > >> >> faster?
> > > > > > >> >> --
> > > > > > >> >> Cheers,
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> John B.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling.. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it.. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> > > > > > >> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
> > > > > > >> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
> > > > > > >> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
> > > > > > >> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
> > > > > > >> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
> > > > > > >> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
> > > > > > >> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
> > > > > > >> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
> > > > > > >> today you do it without thinking.
> > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> John B.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> > > > > > Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
> > > > > > (:-)
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John B.
> > > > > Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > For eating Chinese food, the way it is supposed to be prepared, chopsticks are in fact easier to use than tableware and easier to clean up after.
> > > You mean sticky rice? Ok. You forgot to mention that you also have to adapt the way you eat: bring the bowl to your mouth and shove or slurp the stuff in. Disgusting. Pasta is no better. They can make that stuff in any form, it is all the same, but they choose the most inconvenient shape to eat: spaghetti. All my Chinese colleagues don't use chopsticks anymore BTW. How is that? It is just folklore now and/or to show off by the non Chinese people.
> > Let me guess - you don't have any idea if they were born in the EU. And if not, what they eat at home and how? Your comments about spagetti gives me the Idea that you have an extremely conservative outlook on food. What do you think of Sushi - raw fish - often eaten by hand or chop sticks? I have an extremely wide appreciation for foods and their native methods of eating. What do you think of eating a taco in a hard corn flour tortilla? They break apart and drop part of the contents into your lap. What about the Indian method of eating most of their food by hand with Naan (a flat bread)?
> >
> > You are entitled to your opinion and from my point of view it is probably the cleanest method of eating but I can wash my hands before and after I eat.
> Don't take me too serious about this.

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 3:34:52 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 12:10:16 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 1:42:04 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 11:02:50 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 4:23:21 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:56:44 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
> > > > > > > On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > > > > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > > > > > >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > > > > > >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> > > > > > > >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >> >> Snipped
> > > > > > > >> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> > > > > > > >> >> >> > > pile? Why?
> > > > > > > >> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> > > > > > > >> >> >> Snipped
> > > > > > > >> >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >> Cheers
> > > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > >> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> > > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > >> >> >Lou
> > > > > > > >> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> > > > > > > >> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> > > > > > > >> >> faster?
> > > > > > > >> >> --
> > > > > > > >> >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> John B.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> > > > > > > >> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
> > > > > > > >> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
> > > > > > > >> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
> > > > > > > >> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
> > > > > > > >> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
> > > > > > > >> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
> > > > > > > >> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
> > > > > > > >> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
> > > > > > > >> today you do it without thinking.
> > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> John B.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> > > > > > > Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
> > > > > > > (:-)
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > John B.
> > > > > > Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lou
> > > > > For eating Chinese food, the way it is supposed to be prepared, chopsticks are in fact easier to use than tableware and easier to clean up after.
> > > > You mean sticky rice? Ok. You forgot to mention that you also have to adapt the way you eat: bring the bowl to your mouth and shove or slurp the stuff in. Disgusting. Pasta is no better. They can make that stuff in any form, it is all the same, but they choose the most inconvenient shape to eat: spaghetti. All my Chinese colleagues don't use chopsticks anymore BTW. How is that? It is just folklore now and/or to show off by the non Chinese people.
> > > Let me guess - you don't have any idea if they were born in the EU. And if not, what they eat at home and how? Your comments about spagetti gives me the Idea that you have an extremely conservative outlook on food. What do you think of Sushi - raw fish - often eaten by hand or chop sticks? I have an extremely wide appreciation for foods and their native methods of eating. What do you think of eating a taco in a hard corn flour tortilla? They break apart and drop part of the contents into your lap. What about the Indian method of eating most of their food by hand with Naan (a flat bread)?
> > >
> > > You are entitled to your opinion and from my point of view it is probably the cleanest method of eating but I can wash my hands before and after I eat.
> > Don't take me too serious about this.
> I'm not but it does offer and oppertune moment to pull your leg. After all, what would the world do without Stroopwafel?