On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 4:45:26 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> Snipped
> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> > > pile? Why?
> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> Snipped
>
> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>
> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.

Di2 has much better shifting but better than what? Your Mirage group shifts well enough and I have been using Centaur for a long time without any problems. OK Di2 is better for a pro racer. but why should anyone else use it? Someone that can't develop 20% of the power of a pro is simply wasteing money to buy Di2 for anything other than pure curiosity, When you have a group capable of multiple shifts you do miss it. So I am now installing a Chorus group on my best bike just for the pleasure of being able to multiple shift. But it isn't as if this is necessary. After all, Di2 only shifts one gear at a time.

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:26:24 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/26/2022 1:32 AM, John B. wrote:
> > On Wed, 25 May 2022 23:09:19 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 12:06:20 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 20:48:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 16:31:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 1:01:28 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SRAM chains:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought we made it up.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
> >>>>>>>>>>> chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
> >>>>>>>>>>> rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
> >>>>>>>>>>> Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
> >>>>>>>>>> and now with one exception.
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
> >>>>>>>>>> span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
> >>>>>>>>>> the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
> >>>>>>>>>> carefully and follow those directions.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
> >>>>>>>>>> Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
> >>>>>>>>>> longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
> >>>>>>>>> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech.. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
> >>>>>>> shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
> >>>>>>> (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
> >>>>>>> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A comparison. Maybe valid. John, I am sure you are familiar with telephones and all the different dialing methods we have used over the decades. Mechanical STI is similar to rotary telephones dialing. Electronic STI is similar to push button phones. Maybe my comparison is stretching it a little bit. But you have to push, swing, the STI lever a half inch or so. With Di2 you just push the button and make it click. Not a huge difference. But you do notice it every time you click the Di2 button. Think back to the 1970s or 1980s, when the switch from rotary dials on phones changed to push button phones. Dialing the number was never difficult with rotary. It took a few extra seconds or so. Not as quick and easy. But nothing drastic. You talked on the phone for 5-10-15-20-30 minutes and you are worrying about the extra 15 seconds it took to dial the number???????? But everyone who made the switch from rotary to push button appreciated it and noticed the extra ease. Every
> >>>>>> time they dialed the phone.
> >>>>> But, but, but... My grandparents had a no dial, no button, phone. It
> >>>>> had a little crank on the side and you gave it a turn or two and a
> >>>>> voice said, "number please" and you said something like "5522 please"
> >>>>> and you were connected.
> >>>>
> >>>> I've heard about telephones back when the dinosaurs roamed around eating people. Now days we have space age telekinetic laser telephone devices with flashlights that you can just push a few buttons (or places on the glass screens) and you make a call. Much easier than turning the little crank on the side of the phone. And no having to say "please" either. Because I am rude. And I would not be surprised if there are phones now days where you just say the name you want to call, and boom the call is made. You can't tell me that ain't better.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Are all your buttons and bows simpler?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I've ridden bikes with no shifters (single speed), 3 speed thumb shifters on the handlebars, stem mounted shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters, Campagnolo Ergo mechanical, Shimano STI mechanical, and Shimano Di2 STI. They all work fine. But some are better and easier to use than others. For me, Di2 STI is at the top of the mountain.
> >>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> >>>>> pile? Why?
> >>>>
> >>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's whys better. You'll probably get the stock answer, "if you have to
> >>>
> >>> You logic is irrefutable.
> >>>
> >>> But, if pressing a little button is what determines good or bad
> >>> wouldn't it be even more "good" to just sit there on the couch and
> >>> press the little button on the TV Remote?
> >>> --
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> John B.
> >>
> >> But you don't get the exercise benefit of bicycling if you just sit on the couch watching TV. Of course I do push the remote button more than I push the Di2 button, so I guess my finger gets a little more exercise watching TV than bicycling. But enough with this nonsense. Shifting is not why you bicycle. Its just one of the extra tasks required to bicycle. Unless you ride a single speed. Kind of like oiling the chain. You are forced to do it.. And thus all the magical chain waxing, oiling devices and/or solutions entrepreneurs have invented. Or braking. No one wants to use the brakes. But usually you are forced to apply the brakes. You have to take the good of exercising and seeing the sights by bicycling with the less pleasant tasks like shifting and braking and oiling. So its good to minimize even more so the non beneficial items.
> >
> > "Shifting is not why you bicycle."
> >
> > Exactly, thus my original question
> > "I move the handle and the bike shifts
> > gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?"
> >
> > In fact I can't even remember shifting. I live on a hill so I must
> > have but it wasn't something that was especially memorable.
> > And in Bangkok I shift twice in a 20 km ride (:-)
> >
> >
> I move my hands (typically folding my newspaper, hands off
> bars) all the while and my fixie never shifts. Mr Seaton has
> different needs and viewpoints and standards and for him the
> Di2 system is preferable. Where shift response is important,
> modern gear systems are excellent.
>
> If I might venture further, cycling becomes more fulfilling
> the less one thinks about the machine itself. That's how it
> works for me anyway.

On 5/26/2022 8:56 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:26:24 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/26/2022 1:32 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 23:09:19 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 12:06:20 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 20:48:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 16:31:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 1:01:28 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SRAM chains:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought we made it up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
>>>>>>>>>>>> and now with one exception.
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
>>>>>>>>>>>> span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
>>>>>>>>>>>> the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
>>>>>>>>>>>> carefully and follow those directions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
>>>>>>>>>>>> longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
>>>>>>>>>>> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
>>>>>>>>> shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
>>>>>>>>> (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
>>>>>>>>> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A comparison. Maybe valid. John, I am sure you are familiar with telephones and all the different dialing methods we have used over the decades. Mechanical STI is similar to rotary telephones dialing. Electronic STI is similar to push button phones. Maybe my comparison is stretching it a little bit. But you have to push, swing, the STI lever a half inch or so. With Di2 you just push the button and make it click. Not a huge difference. But you do notice it every time you click the Di2 button. Think back to the 1970s or 1980s, when the switch from rotary dials on phones changed to push button phones. Dialing the number was never difficult with rotary. It took a few extra seconds or so. Not as quick and easy. But nothing drastic. You talked on the phone for 5-10-15-20-30 minutes and you are worrying about the extra 15 seconds it took to dial the number???????? But everyone who made the switch from rotary to push button appreciated it and noticed the extra ease. Every
>>>>>>>> time they dialed the phone.
>>>>>>> But, but, but... My grandparents had a no dial, no button, phone. It
>>>>>>> had a little crank on the side and you gave it a turn or two and a
>>>>>>> voice said, "number please" and you said something like "5522 please"
>>>>>>> and you were connected.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've heard about telephones back when the dinosaurs roamed around eating people. Now days we have space age telekinetic laser telephone devices with flashlights that you can just push a few buttons (or places on the glass screens) and you make a call. Much easier than turning the little crank on the side of the phone. And no having to say "please" either. Because I am rude. And I would not be surprised if there are phones now days where you just say the name you want to call, and boom the call is made. You can't tell me that ain't better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are all your buttons and bows simpler?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've ridden bikes with no shifters (single speed), 3 speed thumb shifters on the handlebars, stem mounted shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters, Campagnolo Ergo mechanical, Shimano STI mechanical, and Shimano Di2 STI. They all work fine. But some are better and easier to use than others. For me, Di2 STI is at the top of the mountain.
>>>>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>>>>>>> pile? Why?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's whys better. You'll probably get the stock answer, "if you have to
>>>>>
>>>>> You logic is irrefutable.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, if pressing a little button is what determines good or bad
>>>>> wouldn't it be even more "good" to just sit there on the couch and
>>>>> press the little button on the TV Remote?
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> But you don't get the exercise benefit of bicycling if you just sit on the couch watching TV. Of course I do push the remote button more than I push the Di2 button, so I guess my finger gets a little more exercise watching TV than bicycling. But enough with this nonsense. Shifting is not why you bicycle. Its just one of the extra tasks required to bicycle. Unless you ride a single speed. Kind of like oiling the chain. You are forced to do it. And thus all the magical chain waxing, oiling devices and/or solutions entrepreneurs have invented. Or braking. No one wants to use the brakes. But usually you are forced to apply the brakes. You have to take the good of exercising and seeing the sights by bicycling with the less pleasant tasks like shifting and braking and oiling. So its good to minimize even more so the non beneficial items.
>>>
>>> "Shifting is not why you bicycle."
>>>
>>> Exactly, thus my original question
>>> "I move the handle and the bike shifts
>>> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?"
>>>
>>> In fact I can't even remember shifting. I live on a hill so I must
>>> have but it wasn't something that was especially memorable.
>>> And in Bangkok I shift twice in a 20 km ride (:-)
>>>
>>>
>> I move my hands (typically folding my newspaper, hands off
>> bars) all the while and my fixie never shifts. Mr Seaton has
>> different needs and viewpoints and standards and for him the
>> Di2 system is preferable. Where shift response is important,
>> modern gear systems are excellent.
>>
>> If I might venture further, cycling becomes more fulfilling
>> the less one thinks about the machine itself. That's how it
>> works for me anyway.
>
> Andrew, are you telling us that you still have a paper route?
>

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 8:59:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/26/2022 8:56 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:26:24 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 5/26/2022 1:32 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 23:09:19 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 12:06:20 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 20:48:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 16:31:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 1:01:28 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo..com"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail..com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B.. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SRAM chains:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought we made it up.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and now with one exception.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
> >>>>>>>>>>>> carefully and follow those directions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
> >>>>>>>>>>>> longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
> >>>>>>>>>>> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
> >>>>>>>>> shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
> >>>>>>>>> (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
> >>>>>>>>> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> A comparison. Maybe valid. John, I am sure you are familiar with telephones and all the different dialing methods we have used over the decades. Mechanical STI is similar to rotary telephones dialing. Electronic STI is similar to push button phones. Maybe my comparison is stretching it a little bit. But you have to push, swing, the STI lever a half inch or so. With Di2 you just push the button and make it click. Not a huge difference. But you do notice it every time you click the Di2 button. Think back to the 1970s or 1980s, when the switch from rotary dials on phones changed to push button phones. Dialing the number was never difficult with rotary. It took a few extra seconds or so. Not as quick and easy. But nothing drastic. You talked on the phone for 5-10-15-20-30 minutes and you are worrying about the extra 15 seconds it took to dial the number???????? But everyone who made the switch from rotary to push button appreciated it and noticed the extra ease. Every
> >>>>>>>> time they dialed the phone.
> >>>>>>> But, but, but... My grandparents had a no dial, no button, phone. It
> >>>>>>> had a little crank on the side and you gave it a turn or two and a
> >>>>>>> voice said, "number please" and you said something like "5522 please"
> >>>>>>> and you were connected.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I've heard about telephones back when the dinosaurs roamed around eating people. Now days we have space age telekinetic laser telephone devices with flashlights that you can just push a few buttons (or places on the glass screens) and you make a call. Much easier than turning the little crank on the side of the phone. And no having to say "please" either. Because I am rude. And I would not be surprised if there are phones now days where you just say the name you want to call, and boom the call is made. You can't tell me that ain't better.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Are all your buttons and bows simpler?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I've ridden bikes with no shifters (single speed), 3 speed thumb shifters on the handlebars, stem mounted shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters, Campagnolo Ergo mechanical, Shimano STI mechanical, and Shimano Di2 STI. They all work fine. But some are better and easier to use than others. For me, Di2 STI is at the top of the mountain.
> >>>>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> >>>>>>> pile? Why?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's whys better. You'll probably get the stock answer, "if you have to
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You logic is irrefutable.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But, if pressing a little button is what determines good or bad
> >>>>> wouldn't it be even more "good" to just sit there on the couch and
> >>>>> press the little button on the TV Remote?
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John B.
> >>>>
> >>>> But you don't get the exercise benefit of bicycling if you just sit on the couch watching TV. Of course I do push the remote button more than I push the Di2 button, so I guess my finger gets a little more exercise watching TV than bicycling. But enough with this nonsense. Shifting is not why you bicycle. Its just one of the extra tasks required to bicycle. Unless you ride a single speed. Kind of like oiling the chain. You are forced to do it. And thus all the magical chain waxing, oiling devices and/or solutions entrepreneurs have invented. Or braking. No one wants to use the brakes. But usually you are forced to apply the brakes. You have to take the good of exercising and seeing the sights by bicycling with the less pleasant tasks like shifting and braking and oiling. So its good to minimize even more so the non beneficial items.
> >>>
> >>> "Shifting is not why you bicycle."
> >>>
> >>> Exactly, thus my original question
> >>> "I move the handle and the bike shifts
> >>> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?"
> >>>
> >>> In fact I can't even remember shifting. I live on a hill so I must
> >>> have but it wasn't something that was especially memorable.
> >>> And in Bangkok I shift twice in a 20 km ride (:-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >> I move my hands (typically folding my newspaper, hands off
> >> bars) all the while and my fixie never shifts. Mr Seaton has
> >> different needs and viewpoints and standards and for him the
> >> Di2 system is preferable. Where shift response is important,
> >> modern gear systems are excellent.
> >>
> >> If I might venture further, cycling becomes more fulfilling
> >> the less one thinks about the machine itself. That's how it
> >> works for me anyway.
> >
> > Andrew, are you telling us that you still have a paper route?
> >
> Nope, I read a lot, including while riding from time to time.

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 11:03:32 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 8:59:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 5/26/2022 8:56 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:26:24 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 5/26/2022 1:32 AM, John B. wrote:
> > >>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 23:09:19 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > >>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 12:06:20 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 20:48:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > >>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 16:31:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > >>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 1:01:28 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > >>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl....@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John B.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SRAM chains:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought we made it up.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> and now with one exception.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> carefully and follow those directions.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
> > >>>>>>>>> shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
> > >>>>>>>>> (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
> > >>>>>>>>> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> A comparison. Maybe valid. John, I am sure you are familiar with telephones and all the different dialing methods we have used over the decades. Mechanical STI is similar to rotary telephones dialing. Electronic STI is similar to push button phones. Maybe my comparison is stretching it a little bit. But you have to push, swing, the STI lever a half inch or so. With Di2 you just push the button and make it click. Not a huge difference.. But you do notice it every time you click the Di2 button. Think back to the 1970s or 1980s, when the switch from rotary dials on phones changed to push button phones. Dialing the number was never difficult with rotary. It took a few extra seconds or so. Not as quick and easy. But nothing drastic. You talked on the phone for 5-10-15-20-30 minutes and you are worrying about the extra 15 seconds it took to dial the number???????? But everyone who made the switch from rotary to push button appreciated it and noticed the extra ease. Every
> > >>>>>>>> time they dialed the phone.
> > >>>>>>> But, but, but... My grandparents had a no dial, no button, phone. It
> > >>>>>>> had a little crank on the side and you gave it a turn or two and a
> > >>>>>>> voice said, "number please" and you said something like "5522 please"
> > >>>>>>> and you were connected.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I've heard about telephones back when the dinosaurs roamed around eating people. Now days we have space age telekinetic laser telephone devices with flashlights that you can just push a few buttons (or places on the glass screens) and you make a call. Much easier than turning the little crank on the side of the phone. And no having to say "please" either. Because I am rude. And I would not be surprised if there are phones now days where you just say the name you want to call, and boom the call is made. You can't tell me that ain't better.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Are all your buttons and bows simpler?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I've ridden bikes with no shifters (single speed), 3 speed thumb shifters on the handlebars, stem mounted shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters, Campagnolo Ergo mechanical, Shimano STI mechanical, and Shimano Di2 STI. They all work fine. But some are better and easier to use than others. For me, Di2 STI is at the top of the mountain.
> > >>>>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> > >>>>>>> pile? Why?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's whys better. You'll probably get the stock answer, "if you have to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You logic is irrefutable.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> But, if pressing a little button is what determines good or bad
> > >>>>> wouldn't it be even more "good" to just sit there on the couch and
> > >>>>> press the little button on the TV Remote?
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> John B.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> But you don't get the exercise benefit of bicycling if you just sit on the couch watching TV. Of course I do push the remote button more than I push the Di2 button, so I guess my finger gets a little more exercise watching TV than bicycling. But enough with this nonsense. Shifting is not why you bicycle. Its just one of the extra tasks required to bicycle. Unless you ride a single speed. Kind of like oiling the chain. You are forced to do it. And thus all the magical chain waxing, oiling devices and/or solutions entrepreneurs have invented. Or braking. No one wants to use the brakes. But usually you are forced to apply the brakes. You have to take the good of exercising and seeing the sights by bicycling with the less pleasant tasks like shifting and braking and oiling. So its good to minimize even more so the non beneficial items.
> > >>>
> > >>> "Shifting is not why you bicycle."
> > >>>
> > >>> Exactly, thus my original question
> > >>> "I move the handle and the bike shifts
> > >>> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?"
> > >>>
> > >>> In fact I can't even remember shifting. I live on a hill so I must
> > >>> have but it wasn't something that was especially memorable.
> > >>> And in Bangkok I shift twice in a 20 km ride (:-)
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> I move my hands (typically folding my newspaper, hands off
> > >> bars) all the while and my fixie never shifts. Mr Seaton has
> > >> different needs and viewpoints and standards and for him the
> > >> Di2 system is preferable. Where shift response is important,
> > >> modern gear systems are excellent.
> > >>
> > >> If I might venture further, cycling becomes more fulfilling
> > >> the less one thinks about the machine itself. That's how it
> > >> works for me an-retiredyway.
> > >
> > > Andrew, are you telling us that you still have a paper route?
> > >
> > Nope, I read a lot, including while riding from time to time.
> Now THAT I'd like to see.
Andrew how much do you ride these days? My take is you were a road rider in youth but possibly it is just business now and riding is not so fun? Also are you semi-retired or still putting in many hours.
Deacon Mark

On 5/26/2022 3:30 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 11:03:32 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 8:59:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 5/26/2022 8:56 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:26:24 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 5/26/2022 1:32 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 23:09:19 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 12:06:20 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 20:48:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 16:31:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 1:01:28 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 24 May 2022 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 6:07:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/2022 12:22 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:41:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:43:11 PM UTC-7, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 7:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:05:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 10:50 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:03:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2022 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 5:25:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming my current chain is proper length I am running 11-28 rear with 11 spd Shimano. If I change the cassette to 11-32 how many links would I normally need to add. Right now I believe my chain length is fine but when I pull the rear derailleur all the way up after it is on the 28 tooth I have what seems to be quite a bit of room. I am almost certain going to 30 tooth would not require a longer chain but 32? Is there a formula as such. Do you prefer the old big-big without the going through derailleur to measure or some other way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://ilovebicycling.com/determine-bike-chain-length/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bike.bikegremlin.com/614/chain-length-sizing-for-bicycles-with-derailleurs/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I bought the new cassette today Shimano Ultegra 11-28 and put in on the Wilier. The chain needed nothing it spins in the big-big fine with no stress. I probably should get a new 10 spd chain too I suppose they are sky high in prices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain wears first which causes cassette tooth wear. Measure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your chain and replace as needed; it's the cheapest part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your drivetrain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mr Brandt is excellent on the subject see section #8d here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Excerpted on my page with some photos:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew you would know this. I can get a Sram PC-1031 10-Speed Chain for $22. at the local bike shop but I could also just get a Shimano Ultegra. Will the Sram shift equally as good as the Shimano. I have not mixed these components just due to the fact that it has work with all shimano in the past good. But if this sram which seems like a good price is equal then I will go sram. My guess is shifting will be same but would not surprise me if all Ultegra chain would be even smoother.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SRAM chains:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/products/chains?filters=&sort=Relevancy&page=1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain makes offer less expensive as well as longer wearing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and sometimes lighter weight, which is usually neither).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd consider a basic 1031 SRAM or a Shimano Ultegra fine for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your bike. Or KMC or Campagnolo or Wippermann.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the Ebay cost of chains and was in for a shock. The cost of the "cheap" chains used to be 10 or 12 dollars and now they are 25! This almost makes the top end Wipperman a deal since it has a MUCH better speed link and wear very long. At $12 it was better to use the cheap chain and replace it rather than the $70 Wipperman.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An acquaintance and I were unable to convince today's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> waitress that our $2.79 coffees were once a dime. She
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought we made it up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember when breakfast - ham and eggs and hashbrowns was 1.25? Now I'm paying ten times that much.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another note about Deacon Mark's question, The Campy installation video seemed to be saying that if you had a 52 or 53 took large ring that you should use 112 links and if you had a compact you should be using a 110 links. I'm not sure that makes sense to me since the cogs can vary so widely, but that was their conclusion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Campagnolo is smart enough to know that a 52 or 53 tooth outer ring is bigger than a 50 tooth compact ring. The larger diameter will require two extra links. Or two half links since you can only break a chain every other pin. 112 to 110.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been a while but I seem to remember that to correctly size a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chain you wrapped it around the largest chain wheel and the largest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rear "cog" and added, was it one link or two links?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it more complex with them Italian bicycles (:-?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's right for double spring pivot changers between 1984
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and now with one exception.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The latest Campagnolo changers are marvelously redesigned to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> span a wide range with a relatively short cage. To set up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the current 12 system, read Campagnolo's directions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carefully and follow those directions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Older single-spring changers (such as Campagnolo GranSport,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Record, Super Record pre-index) commonly shift best with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> longer chain than 'wrap plus 3 rivets'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is John's belief that he can Google much better information than Campagnolo. He has never owned any top end bicycles or equipment but he can tell you all about it. In the past Russell said that he had Di2 and it worked great. Then he said that it was 7970! That was the 10 speed crap the never worked well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> News to me. My Shimano Di2 7970 has worked perfectly fine from the day I installed it. I will admit once or twice I thought the shifting was not right. So I turned the rear derailleur adjuster screw one click in one direction or the other. And then rode the bike. And it was worse. So I turned the screw back to its original position. Perfect shifting. For one or two years, 7970 was the best of the best of the best. But its main problem was it came out at the very tail end of the 10 speed cassette lifespan. So it was a has been very quickly once 11 speed cassettes got introduced. But for a year, I was the cool kid with the latest and greatest in bicycle tech. Everyone was envious of me for a brief period. And the old men I rode bikes with, none of them had electronic shifters. I don't think any of them even had Garmin GPS wonders. So my old time original electronic Di2 was still considered high tech and fancy dandy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm probably going to start an argument but I've used down tube
>>>>>>>>>>>> shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters and Shimano brake-shifters
>>>>>>>>>>>> (Brifters) and they all worked. I move the handle and the bike shifts
>>>>>>>>>>>> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A comparison. Maybe valid. John, I am sure you are familiar with telephones and all the different dialing methods we have used over the decades. Mechanical STI is similar to rotary telephones dialing. Electronic STI is similar to push button phones. Maybe my comparison is stretching it a little bit. But you have to push, swing, the STI lever a half inch or so. With Di2 you just push the button and make it click. Not a huge difference. But you do notice it every time you click the Di2 button. Think back to the 1970s or 1980s, when the switch from rotary dials on phones changed to push button phones. Dialing the number was never difficult with rotary. It took a few extra seconds or so. Not as quick and easy. But nothing drastic. You talked on the phone for 5-10-15-20-30 minutes and you are worrying about the extra 15 seconds it took to dial the number???????? But everyone who made the switch from rotary to push button appreciated it and noticed the extra ease. Every
>>>>>>>>>>> time they dialed the phone.
>>>>>>>>>> But, but, but... My grandparents had a no dial, no button, phone. It
>>>>>>>>>> had a little crank on the side and you gave it a turn or two and a
>>>>>>>>>> voice said, "number please" and you said something like "5522 please"
>>>>>>>>>> and you were connected.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've heard about telephones back when the dinosaurs roamed around eating people. Now days we have space age telekinetic laser telephone devices with flashlights that you can just push a few buttons (or places on the glass screens) and you make a call. Much easier than turning the little crank on the side of the phone. And no having to say "please" either. Because I am rude. And I would not be surprised if there are phones now days where you just say the name you want to call, and boom the call is made. You can't tell me that ain't better.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are all your buttons and bows simpler?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've ridden bikes with no shifters (single speed), 3 speed thumb shifters on the handlebars, stem mounted shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters, Campagnolo Ergo mechanical, Shimano STI mechanical, and Shimano Di2 STI. They all work fine. But some are better and easier to use than others. For me, Di2 STI is at the top of the mountain.
>>>>>>>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>>>>>>>>>> pile? Why?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's whys better. You'll probably get the stock answer, "if you have to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You logic is irrefutable.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But, if pressing a little button is what determines good or bad
>>>>>>>> wouldn't it be even more "good" to just sit there on the couch and
>>>>>>>> press the little button on the TV Remote?
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But you don't get the exercise benefit of bicycling if you just sit on the couch watching TV. Of course I do push the remote button more than I push the Di2 button, so I guess my finger gets a little more exercise watching TV than bicycling. But enough with this nonsense. Shifting is not why you bicycle. Its just one of the extra tasks required to bicycle. Unless you ride a single speed. Kind of like oiling the chain. You are forced to do it. And thus all the magical chain waxing, oiling devices and/or solutions entrepreneurs have invented. Or braking. No one wants to use the brakes. But usually you are forced to apply the brakes. You have to take the good of exercising and seeing the sights by bicycling with the less pleasant tasks like shifting and braking and oiling. So its good to minimize even more so the non beneficial items.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Shifting is not why you bicycle."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly, thus my original question
>>>>>> "I move the handle and the bike shifts
>>>>>> gears. So, what's good, better or best shifting?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In fact I can't even remember shifting. I live on a hill so I must
>>>>>> have but it wasn't something that was especially memorable.
>>>>>> And in Bangkok I shift twice in a 20 km ride (:-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I move my hands (typically folding my newspaper, hands off
>>>>> bars) all the while and my fixie never shifts. Mr Seaton has
>>>>> different needs and viewpoints and standards and for him the
>>>>> Di2 system is preferable. Where shift response is important,
>>>>> modern gear systems are excellent.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I might venture further, cycling becomes more fulfilling
>>>>> the less one thinks about the machine itself. That's how it
>>>>> works for me an-retiredyway.
>>>>
>>>> Andrew, are you telling us that you still have a paper route?
>>>>
>>> Nope, I read a lot, including while riding from time to time.
>> Now THAT I'd like to see.
> Andrew how much do you ride these days? My take is you were a road rider in youth but possibly it is just business now and riding is not so fun? Also are you semi-retired or still putting in many hours.
> Deacon Mark
>

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 11:59:36 a.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
Huge snip.
> Nope, I read a lot, including while riding from time to time.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I have an image in a folder in my computer, of a fellow riding a fixed gear on a velodrome track, whilst he's reading a paper, sipping from a cup, and holding the saucer. He's steering with a foot.

Cheers

On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> Snipped
>> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>> > > pile? Why?
>> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
>> Snipped
>>
>> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>>
>> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
>>
>> Cheers
>
>That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
>
>Lou
Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
faster?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> Snipped
> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> >> > > pile? Why?
> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> >> Snipped
> >>
> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> >>
> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >
> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> >
> >Lou
> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> faster?
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?

Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.

Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.

On 5/26/2022 5:30 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 11:59:36 a.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> Huge snip.
>> Nope, I read a lot, including while riding from time to time.

> I have an image in a folder in my computer, of a fellow riding a fixed gear on a velodrome track, whilst he's reading a paper, sipping from a cup, and holding the saucer. He's steering with a foot.
>
> Cheers
>

The foot is superfluous.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 7:40:37 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/26/2022 5:30 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 11:59:36 a.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> > Huge snip.
> >> Nope, I read a lot, including while riding from time to time.
> > I have an image in a folder in my computer, of a fellow riding a fixed gear on a velodrome track, whilst he's reading a paper, sipping from a cup, and holding the saucer. He's steering with a foot.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> The foot is superfluous.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Yeah. On a track you can ride no hands without any problem at all. And the turns you just lean into them and go around the half circle on the banking.

On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> Snipped
>> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>> >> > > pile? Why?
>> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
>> >> Snipped
>> >>
>> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>> >>
>> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >
>> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
>> >
>> >Lou
>> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
>> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
>> faster?
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
>
>Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.

Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)

>Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.

You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It as all automatic.

Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
today you do it without thinking.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/26/2022 8:43 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 7:40:37 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/26/2022 5:30 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 11:59:36 a.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>> Huge snip.
>>>> Nope, I read a lot, including while riding from time to time.
>>> I have an image in a folder in my computer, of a fellow riding a fixed gear on a velodrome track, whilst he's reading a paper, sipping from a cup, and holding the saucer. He's steering with a foot.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>> The foot is superfluous.

> Yeah. On a track you can ride no hands without any problem at all. And the turns you just lean into them and go around the half circle on the banking.
>

Same in the street.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/26/2022 8:39 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.

By your analogy, we should be barely riding bikes at all. After all,
most people do it only a few times per year. By "voting" with their
pocket books for cars instead of bikes, they're saying biking is not
worth doing.

And yet those of us here find ways to disagree.

Popularity isn't proof of benefit.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo..com wrote:
> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> >> Snipped
> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> >> >> > > pile? Why?
> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> >> >> Snipped
> >> >>
> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> >> >>
> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers
> >> >
> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> >> >
> >> >Lou
> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> >> faster?
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
> >
> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.

No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.

>
> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
> today you do it without thinking.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:39:47 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/26/2022 8:43 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 7:40:37 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 5/26/2022 5:30 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 11:59:36 a.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> Huge snip.
> >>>> Nope, I read a lot, including while riding from time to time.
> >>> I have an image in a folder in my computer, of a fellow riding a fixed gear on a velodrome track, whilst he's reading a paper, sipping from a cup, and holding the saucer. He's steering with a foot.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>>
> >> The foot is superfluous.
> > Yeah. On a track you can ride no hands without any problem at all. And the turns you just lean into them and go around the half circle on the banking.
> >
> Same in the street.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I have never tired to make a 90 degree turn at a corner no hands. I only ride no hands when its flat and straight. But I will have to try cornering no hands. Likely a big wide corner where I can use both lanes.

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 10:12:54 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/26/2022 8:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> By your analogy, we should be barely riding bikes at all. After all,
> most people do it only a few times per year. By "voting" with their
> pocket books for cars instead of bikes, they're saying biking is not
> worth doing.

You missed my prior responses to John about the benefits of bicycling being exercise. And seeing the scenery in more detail when cycling by at 15 mph.. Instead of zooming by at 70 mph in a car. My analogy is to explain the benefit of Di2 electronic shifters to eliminate the arduous task of manually shifting. Easier to shift. I have had bikes with stem shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters. All manual. And shifting was not too arduous. But sometimes even the tiniest improvement is worth doing. Kind of like if I see a penny on the ground I stop and reach down and pick it up. Even though one penny is almost infinitesimally irrelevant to me.

>
> And yet those of us here find ways to disagree.
>
> Popularity isn't proof of benefit.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 26 May 2022 21:04:23 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 10:12:54 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/26/2022 8:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >
>> > Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
>> By your analogy, we should be barely riding bikes at all. After all,
>> most people do it only a few times per year. By "voting" with their
>> pocket books for cars instead of bikes, they're saying biking is not
>> worth doing.
>
>You missed my prior responses to John about the benefits of bicycling being exercise.

Yes, I read that and neglected to reply. But yes cycling is a form of
exercise... albeit not a very good form. Well, other then good being
better then just sitting there on the couch.

Bicycleing, not being a weight bearing exercise is of little benefit
to the bones and as you grow older your bones become weaker and thus
weight bearing exercises - try walking, jogging or running - become
more and more important to your health.
Or weight lifting (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> Snipped
>> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>> >> >> > > pile? Why?
>> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
>> >> >> Snipped
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cheers
>> >> >
>> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
>> >> >
>> >> >Lou
>> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
>> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
>> >> faster?
>> >> --
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> John B.
>> >
>> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
>> >
>> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
>> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
>> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
>> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
>> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
>> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
>> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
>
>No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
>
>
>>
>> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
>> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
>> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
>> today you do it without thinking.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.

Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
(:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
> On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> >> >> Snipped
> >> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> >> >> >> > > pile? Why?
> >> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> >> >> >> Snipped
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Cheers
> >> >> >
> >> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Lou
> >> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> >> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> >> >> faster?
> >> >> --
> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >>
> >> >> John B.
> >> >
> >> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
> >> >
> >> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> >> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
> >> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
> >> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
> >> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
> >> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
> >> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
> >
> >No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
> >> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
> >> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
> >> today you do it without thinking.
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> >Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
> (:-)
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)

Lou

On Fri, 27 May 2022 00:56:42 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> >> Snipped
>> >> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>> >> >> >> > > pile? Why?
>> >> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
>> >> >> >> Snipped
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Cheers
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Lou
>> >> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
>> >> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
>> >> >> faster?
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Cheers,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> John B.
>> >> >
>> >> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
>> >> >
>> >> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
>> >> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
>> >> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
>> >> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
>> >> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
>> >> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
>> >> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
>> >
>> >No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
>> >> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
>> >> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
>> >> today you do it without thinking.
>> >> --
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> John B.
>> >
>> >Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
>> Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
>> (:-)
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
>
>Lou

It is... for those that don't know how to use them (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/27/2022 2:56 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> Snipped
>>>>>>>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>>>>>>>>>> pile? Why?
>>>>>>>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
>>>>>>>> Snipped
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
>>>>>> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
>>>>>> faster?
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>
>>>>> The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
>>>>>
>>>>> Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
>>>> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
>>>> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
>>>>> Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
>>>> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
>>>> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
>>>> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
>>>
>>> No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
>>>> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
>>>> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
>>>> today you do it without thinking.
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>>
>>> Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
>> Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
>> (:-)
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
> Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
>
> Lou
>

They're not. It's a simple easily mastered skill. Children
do it gracefully!

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 3:27:17 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/26/2022 3:30 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>
> > Andrew how much do you ride these days? My take is you were a road rider in youth but possibly it is just business now and riding is not so fun? Also are you semi-retired or still putting in many hours.
> > Deacon Mark
> >
> As our former RBT contributor Nate Nagel often wrote, 'I
> only work half time, just 12 hours per day.' I ride often
> but not far and I don't think riding no hands with a
> newspaper should be considered acrobatic. It's not.

Every time you write that it gives me chills. All it requires is a crack you don't notice or a stick in the wrong place and you end up like me - with no sense of balance and requiring a life time of taking medicine with nasty side effects. I would like to see you as good to the last drop.

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:56:44 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
> > On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> > >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >> >> >> Snipped
> > >> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> > >> >> >> > > pile? Why?
> > >> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> > >> >> >> Snipped
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike.. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Cheers
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Lou
> > >> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> > >> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> > >> >> faster?
> > >> >> --
> > >> >> Cheers,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> John B.
> > >> >
> > >> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
> > >> >
> > >> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> > >> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
> > >> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
> > >> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
> > >> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
> > >> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
> > >> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
> > >
> > >No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
> > >> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
> > >> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
> > >> today you do it without thinking.
> > >> --
> > >> Cheers,
> > >>
> > >> John B.
> > >
> > >Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> > Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
> > (:-)
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John B.
> Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
>
> Lou

For eating Chinese food, the way it is supposed to be prepared, chopsticks are in fact easier to use than tableware and easier to clean up after.

On 5/27/2022 12:04 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> My analogy is to explain the benefit of Di2 electronic shifters to eliminate the arduous task of manually shifting. Easier to shift. I have had bikes with stem shifters, downtube shifters, bar end shifters. All manual. And shifting was not too arduous. But sometimes even the tiniest improvement is worth doing.

Yes, I can give examples of the tiniest improvement _sometimes_ being
worth doing. A musical example might be a violin E string that tends to
whistle instead of sounding clearly. Changing to a different brand of
string might cure that, even though the differences are literally
invisible. A bicycling example might be a gearing system that allows a
racer to react almost instantaneously to a competitor's sudden
acceleration, and perhaps allow a race victory.

_Sometimes_ those things happen. IOW, sometimes the benefits exceed the
detriments.

But on the other hand, what are the benefits a rider like Tom will get
from Di2? He apparently goes out and flogs himself up hills and looks at
his Strava data later. Would touching a button rather than slightly
moving a lever take even a few seconds off his time? And what would be
the real benefit even if it did?

I understand the claims about ease of installation and no requirement of
periodic adjustment or tuning. But normal people do installation just
once, and only rarely need to turn a barrel adjuster half a turn.

ISTM that switching to Di2 would be like trading in one's big screen TV.
Not because the new one was bigger or had a better picture or could get
more content. Instead, because the buttons on the new remote had a nicer
click.

> Kind of like if I see a penny on the ground I stop and reach down and pick it up. Even though one penny is almost infinitesimally irrelevant to me.

Good example. I let the pennies lie there for kids to find.

--
- Frank Krygowski