Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> writes:
>On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 15:45:54 -0700
>pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>>>Do you have a copy of Audels Engineers and Mechanics Guide? Lots of
>>>useful mechanical ideas therein. A good introduction to steam engines
>>>in volume 1.
>>
>> Nope. Lot of other interesting books.
>
>There are some decent 1921 copies at Archive. Try this search:
>
>https://archive.org/search.php?query=title%3A%28Audels%20Engineers%29%20AND%20collection%3A%28cdl%29%20AND%20mediatype%3A%28texts%29

The American Libraries scans are missing most of the diagrams.

The California Digital Library versions are much better.

On 8/25/2022 10:08 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 21:40:57 -0400
> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> I really need to sort my old book collection better. Audel's Machinist and
>> Tool Makers Handy Book doesn't belong between The Victor Book of the Opera
>> and Flavius Josephus.
>
> They'll be even harder to find after you sort them. You'll find
> yourself staring at where they used to be and not recalling where
> they moved to...
>

Like icons on your smart phone! LOL

Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> on Thu, 25 Aug 2022 11:08:15 -0400
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 21:40:57 -0400
>"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>>I really need to sort my old book collection better. Audel's Machinist and
>>Tool Makers Handy Book doesn't belong between The Victor Book of the Opera
>>and Flavius Josephus.
>
>They'll be even harder to find after you sort them. You'll find
>yourself staring at where they used to be and not recalling where
>they moved to...

When putting things away, I have a tendency to put them where I
was last looking / expecting them to be.

And then there is the issue of "Why is this here? Because it made
sense at the time."
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news:33efghlggegmahdcna9u0id8hljpn65q58@4ax.com...

When putting things away, I have a tendency to put them where I
was last looking / expecting them to be.

And then there is the issue of "Why is this here? Because it made
sense at the time."

----------------------------

That works fairly well unless you put it away hastily to get it out of the
way of something else that occupied your attention.

On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 11:17:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> on Thu, 25 Aug 2022 11:08:15 -0400
>typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 21:40:57 -0400
>>"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>>I really need to sort my old book collection better. Audel's Machinist and
>>>Tool Makers Handy Book doesn't belong between The Victor Book of the Opera
>>>and Flavius Josephus.
>>
>>They'll be even harder to find after you sort them. You'll find
>>yourself staring at where they used to be and not recalling where
>>they moved to...
>
> When putting things away, I have a tendency to put them where I
>was last looking / expecting them to be.
>
> And then there is the issue of "Why is this here? Because it made
>sense at the time."

Everything is in its place. I just can't remember where that place
is.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> on Thu, 25 Aug 2022 18:32:48
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
>news:33efghlggegmahdcna9u0id8hljpn65q58@4ax.com...
>
>When putting things away, I have a tendency to put them where I
>was last looking / expecting them to be.
>
>And then there is the issue of "Why is this here? Because it made
>sense at the time."
>
>----------------------------
>
>That works fairly well unless you put it away hastily to get it out of the
>way of something else that occupied your attention.

That falls under the heading "It made sense at the time".

Like why my phone is "over there" - because I put it down to do
something else ...

I keep opening containers and finding the "I know I have one ...
somewhere" which is why I now have three of them.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

krw@notreal.com on Thu, 25 Aug 2022 18:38:00 -0400 typed in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 11:17:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
><phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> on Thu, 25 Aug 2022 11:08:15 -0400
>>typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>>On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 21:40:57 -0400
>>>"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>>I really need to sort my old book collection better. Audel's Machinist and
>>>>Tool Makers Handy Book doesn't belong between The Victor Book of the Opera
>>>>and Flavius Josephus.
>>>
>>>They'll be even harder to find after you sort them. You'll find
>>>yourself staring at where they used to be and not recalling where
>>>they moved to...
>>
>> When putting things away, I have a tendency to put them where I
>>was last looking / expecting them to be.
>>
>> And then there is the issue of "Why is this here? Because it made
>>sense at the time."
>
>Everything is in its place. I just can't remember where that place
>is.

"I remember seeing it, now where was I when I saw it?"

--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> How do you temper spring stock for rough handling?

Depends on the spring. The garage door spring gaffs were neither
hardened nor tempered, just air cooled after forging. OTOH, front
torsion springs from a 60s VW (ca. 1/8"x3/4", 30" long) can be bent
180 deg in the vise as found. Heat to a red heat, air cool, can be
snapped in two with an easy tweak.

Making power hammer dies from big-truck helper springs: Weld m/s to
it, the welds fail under light blows, taking a thin crust of the
embrittled spring stock with them. Heated to a black heat before
welding, reheating after welding and then packing in ceramic blanket
for 24 hrs. and you can wail on the welded part with a 2.5 # hammer.

One of my disheartening failures: make a replacement spring for a
pedal of an antique reed organ. Two pieces of thin spring stock bent
to curves and joined at one end with rivets. I made three units from
old hand say blades, using low-tech methods of judging heat and
tempering temperature. They all worked great for an hour, then
broke. Finally found an organ collector go gave me whaat I needed
that's still working.

> My one blacksmithing class was something of an apprenticeship. One task was
> to straighten the coil spring from a truck with hammer and anvil. I did it,
> but it was at the limit of what I could do by myself without other
> mechanical aid.

Say, 3/4" diameter stock? Harder to work with than garage door
spring.

> I just read in a locomotive history that 1-1/4" bar stock was the maximum
> that a blacksmith could forge weld in the 1840's. From other sources it
> appears that large steamboat crankshafts were a real struggle to forge weld
> without flaws. Steam engine development was limited by the ability to make
> increasingly larger and stronger parts.

How about anchors? Some of them around here appear to have a stock
about 4" square. The arms are welded to the stock and the flukes
welded to the arms, all forge welding. There's a mid-18th c. picture
in Diderot of welding an anchor that appears eneven bigger -- 6" of 7"
stock? -- with a power hammer but AIUI the ones that decorate people's
dooryards around here would have been welded by four strikers with 16#
hammers.

>
> By the 1850's American locomotive boilers operated around 90PSI. Watt's
> objection to the dangers of high pressure had little influence in the USA,
> and the greater grades and distances here caused designs to diverge from
> British practice. This is an example from the 1860's
> https://www.kennesaw-ga.gov/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/IMG_0034-300x199.jpg
>
> During the US Civil War cavalry destroyed railroads by heating the rails red
> hot in the middle on a stack of burning ties (sleepers) and then twisting
> them spirally or bending them around trees, which was easier for mounted
> troops without heavy tools. The South started it, calling them Mrs Lincoln's
> hair ties. That was a nuisance for the North but new rails were available.
> When Northern cavalry became able to raid the South their very limited
> industry couldn't as easily supply replacements and their military
> transportation was crippled.
> https://www.nchgs.org/html/griersons_raid.html
> https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3a4a5033296410f68daf20b763f4e96d-lq

One of my favorite movies is Buster Keaton's "The General".

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

"Mike Spencer" wrote in message
news:87o7w6kugu.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere...
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> How do you temper spring stock for rough handling?

Depends on the spring. The garage door spring gaffs were neither
hardened nor tempered, just air cooled after forging. OTOH, front
torsion springs from a 60s VW (ca. 1/8"x3/4", 30" long) can be bent
180 deg in the vise as found. Heat to a red heat, air cool, can be
snapped in two with an easy tweak.

[[ My only VW front axle experience was replacing the king pins. I try to
avoid destroying parts a restorer might use. I have a farm wagon front axle
that's 1-3/4" square, apparently forged from 3" round stock which remains
intact at the wheel flanges. The two halves were upset and forge welded at
the center pivot, the diagonal scarf is still visible. The rust pit pattern
isn't directional like wrought iron. Maybe the blacksmith will trade it for
some modern bar stock. ]]

Making power hammer dies from big-truck helper springs: Weld m/s to
it, the welds fail under light blows, taking a thin crust of the
embrittled spring stock with them. Heated to a black heat before
welding, reheating after welding and then packing in ceramic blanket
for 24 hrs. and you can wail on the welded part with a 2.5 # hammer.

[[ Thanks. I made bucket loader pivot pins from drill rod and TIG welded the
retainer plates, one of which cracked off in the heat affected zone.
Annealing the rest degraded their ground finish. ]]

One of my disheartening failures: make a replacement spring for a
pedal of an antique reed organ. Two pieces of thin spring stock bent
to curves and joined at one end with rivets. I made three units from
old hand say blades, using low-tech methods of judging heat and
tempering temperature. They all worked great for an hour, then
broke. Finally found an organ collector go gave me whaat I needed
that's still working.

> My one blacksmithing class was something of an apprenticeship. One task
> was
> to straighten the coil spring from a truck with hammer and anvil. I did
> it,
> but it was at the limit of what I could do by myself without other
> mechanical aid.

Say, 3/4" diameter stock? Harder to work with than garage door
spring.

[[ Yes. The blacksmith shop had the right equipment but I was trying to
determine what I could do alone at home. Heating the spring and bending it
revealed many internal cracks so I brought in a scrapped leaf spring a
neighbor had given me. ]]

> I just read in a locomotive history that 1-1/4" bar stock was the maximum
> that a blacksmith could forge weld in the 1840's. From other sources it
> appears that large steamboat crankshafts were a real struggle to forge
> weld
> without flaws. Steam engine development was limited by the ability to make
> increasingly larger and stronger parts.

How about anchors? Some of them around here appear to have a stock
about 4" square. The arms are welded to the stock and the flukes
welded to the arms, all forge welding. There's a mid-18th c. picture
in Diderot of welding an anchor that appears eneven bigger -- 6" of 7"
stock? -- with a power hammer but AIUI the ones that decorate people's
dooryards around here would have been welded by four strikers with 16#
hammers.

[[ The weight and scope of the chain helps isolate anchors from the constant
pounding that steam engines and loco frames must endure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammer_blow
When I read that I remembered a story about repairing a 30" diameter paddle
wheel steamer crankshaft that had broken, evidently because it was too big
for the smith to build it up with sound forge welds. The lathes to turn
them had beds that resembled granite bridge abutments. These links are
impressively large and I'm glad I didn't have to help forge them. I've
watched 3/8" chain for oxen pulling contests being forge welded at about a
minute per link but I wouldn't trust myself to do it properly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_River_Chains
]]

pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> writes:

> When putting things away, I have a tendency to put them where I
> was last looking / expecting them to be.
>
> And then there is the issue of "Why is this here? Because it made
> sense at the time."

Realized I might need a hub adaptor to put larger spools on my MIG
welder. Knew I had had one but couldn't find it anywhere. Ordered
one with some bother as the welder is 20 years old. When I got it, I
thought to myself, where shall I put it so that next time, I can find
it? Thought of a good place, went to put it there and found the
missing one.

Duh.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> writes:

> krw@notreal.com on Mon, 22 Aug 2022 21:43:50 -0400 typed in
>
>> Hoarding much? ;-)
>
> Nah. Hoarding is what _they_ do.
>
> _I_ maintain a stock pile of necessities.

Did I post this before? A year or two ago I was able to fix my car
because I had exactly the right huge sheet metal screws left over from
fixing up my old Metro bread truck in 1966. Was able to fix my 1913
toaster with a bit of nichrome wire I bought in 1977, no longer
available at the hardware store. Never throw anything away.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

"Mike Spencer" wrote in message
news:87zgfmjipx.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere...

pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> writes:

> krw@notreal.com on Mon, 22 Aug 2022 21:43:50 -0400 typed in
>
>> Hoarding much? ;-)
>
> Nah. Hoarding is what _they_ do.
>
> _I_ maintain a stock pile of necessities.

Did I post this before? A year or two ago I was able to fix my car
because I had exactly the right huge sheet metal screws left over from
fixing up my old Metro bread truck in 1966. Was able to fix my 1913
toaster with a bit of nichrome wire I bought in 1977, no longer
available at the hardware store. Never throw anything away.
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

----------------------

My problem is efficiently storing it all. I've found it practical to group
related items into one bin as long as I can tell them apart, for instance
all lengths of each diameter/pitch of bolts or screws are in the same bin,
or if I have more than one bin's worth they are sorted by head style and
indoor/outdoor use. Brass, aluminum and stainless are in the same bin
because they look different.
This tray makes it easy to spread them out to find what I want and then
funnel them back into the bin.
https://www.harborfreight.com/easy-sorter-funnel-tray-37081.html

It's a tradeoff of the storage space, the chance I'll need it and the time
to sort through the bin. Most bins are more than half full.

Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> on 30 Aug 2022 04:17:37
-0300 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>
>pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>> When putting things away, I have a tendency to put them where I
>> was last looking / expecting them to be.
>>
>> And then there is the issue of "Why is this here? Because it made
>> sense at the time."
>
>Realized I might need a hub adaptor to put larger spools on my MIG
>welder. Knew I had had one but couldn't find it anywhere. Ordered
>one with some bother as the welder is 20 years old. When I got it, I
>thought to myself, where shall I put it so that next time, I can find
>it? Thought of a good place, went to put it there and found the
>missing one.
>
>Duh.

LOL.

Which is why I have three unused soldering irons. And just found
a forth.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> on 30 Aug 2022 04:25:46
-0300 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> writes:
>> krw@notreal.com on Mon, 22 Aug 2022 21:43:50 -0400 typed in
>>> Hoarding much? ;-)
>>
>> Nah. Hoarding is what _they_ do.
>>
>> _I_ maintain a stock pile of necessities.
>
>Did I post this before? A year or two ago I was able to fix my car
>because I had exactly the right huge sheet metal screws left over from
>fixing up my old Metro bread truck in 1966. Was able to fix my 1913
>toaster with a bit of nichrome wire I bought in 1977, no longer
>available at the hardware store. Never throw anything away.

The main issues is not that I have this large stockpile. It is
knowing that I have one of "those", but can't recall where I was
standing when I last saw it.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

On 30 Aug 2022 04:25:46 -0300, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
>pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>> krw@notreal.com on Mon, 22 Aug 2022 21:43:50 -0400 typed in
>>
>>> Hoarding much? ;-)
>>
>> Nah. Hoarding is what _they_ do.
>>
>> _I_ maintain a stock pile of necessities.
>
>Did I post this before? A year or two ago I was able to fix my car
>because I had exactly the right huge sheet metal screws left over from
>fixing up my old Metro bread truck in 1966. Was able to fix my 1913
>toaster with a bit of nichrome wire I bought in 1977, no longer
>available at the hardware store. Never throw anything away.
Not really relevant, but you do live on the right side of the country!

On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 07:23:37 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Mike Spencer" wrote in message
>news:87zgfmjipx.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere...
>
>
>pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>> krw@notreal.com on Mon, 22 Aug 2022 21:43:50 -0400 typed in
>>
>>> Hoarding much? ;-)
>>
>> Nah. Hoarding is what _they_ do.
>>
>> _I_ maintain a stock pile of necessities.
>
>Did I post this before? A year or two ago I was able to fix my car
>because I had exactly the right huge sheet metal screws left over from
>fixing up my old Metro bread truck in 1966. Was able to fix my 1913
>toaster with a bit of nichrome wire I bought in 1977, no longer
>available at the hardware store. Never throw anything away.
>Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
>
>----------------------
>
>My problem is efficiently storing it all. I've found it practical to group
>related items into one bin as long as I can tell them apart, for instance
>all lengths of each diameter/pitch of bolts or screws are in the same bin,
>or if I have more than one bin's worth they are sorted by head style and
>indoor/outdoor use. Brass, aluminum and stainless are in the same bin
>because they look different.
>This tray makes it easy to spread them out to find what I want and then
>funnel them back into the bin.
>https://www.harborfreight.com/easy-sorter-funnel-tray-37081.html
>
>It's a tradeoff of the storage space, the chance I'll need it and the time
>to sort through the bin. Most bins are more than half full.
Our local plastic, blow molded, vinnegar jugs taper from the
recangular body to the cap; so by sliceing along the mold line I get
two sorting trays to dump my tobacco can storage containers - find
what I need and return to stock.
I used to smoke a pipe and our former military wife secretary rolled
cigarettes for herself and husband, so it didn't take long to
accumulate around a hundred half pound cans with twist off lids that
fit three to a stud space, supported on 1 x 2" horizontal strapping.
I also have smaller containers - nut cans (paperboard wall with metal
bottom and top ring and plastic snap on cover, mostly 4"dia. by 3"
high) that I have been accumulating.
Second Son has a good number of Folgers coffee cans about one gallon
size.
I jut need to invent a system like the file room with moveable, track
mounted file shelves.

On 30 Aug 2022 04:17:37 -0300, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
>pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>> When putting things away, I have a tendency to put them where I
>> was last looking / expecting them to be.
>>
>> And then there is the issue of "Why is this here? Because it made
>> sense at the time."
>
>Realized I might need a hub adaptor to put larger spools on my MIG
>welder. Knew I had had one but couldn't find it anywhere. Ordered
>one with some bother as the welder is 20 years old. When I got it, I
>thought to myself, where shall I put it so that next time, I can find
>it? Thought of a good place, went to put it there and found the
>missing one.
>
>Duh.
Bin there, Done that!