On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.
>
>Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
>deposed, they will surely follow.
>
>Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
>just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
>don't think they can do much with what's left:
><https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
><https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
>Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
>activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
><https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>

Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the USians who were
scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft back in the
1960's (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:24:10 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.
>>
>>Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
>>deposed, they will surely follow.
>>
>>Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
>>just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
>>don't think they can do much with what's left:
>><https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
>><https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
>>Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
>>activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
>><https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>

>Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the USians who were
>scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft back in the
>1960's (:-)

<https://www.quora.com/How-many-draft-dodgers-went-to-Canada-during-the-Vietnam-War>
About 30,000 Americans went to Canada to avoid
the Vietnam War.

About 30,000 Canadians traveled South to the
US to volunteer and participate in the Vietnam War.
They were welcomed with open arms. 12,000 were in
combat outfits in the Army and Marines. 134 died.
They are on The Wall in Washington DC.

So, Canadians took the place of the Americans that
decided to go to Canada. Pretty well evened out.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War>
<https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Canadians-Vietnam-Fred-Gaffen/dp/1550020730>

Draft evasion is a problem in any country with a draft. Covid fatigue
has become a big part of the problem. For example:

"IDF alarmed over growing draft-dodging trend" (July 25, 2022)
<https://www.israelhayom.com/2022/07/25/idf-alarmed-over-increasing-draft-dodging-trend/>
"The IDF Manpower Directorate estimates that youngsters evaded
conscription as a way to "rebel" against the establishment after being
severely affected by the pandemic when they were forced to stay at
home and study online for months at a time."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:18:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:24:10 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.
>>>
>>>Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
>>>deposed, they will surely follow.
>>>
>>>Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
>>>just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
>>>don't think they can do much with what's left:
>>><https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
>>><https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
>>>Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
>>>activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
>>><https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>
>
>>Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the USians who were
>>scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft back in the
>>1960's (:-)
>
><https://www.quora.com/How-many-draft-dodgers-went-to-Canada-during-the-Vietnam-War>
> About 30,000 Americans went to Canada to avoid
> the Vietnam War.
>
> About 30,000 Canadians traveled South to the
> US to volunteer and participate in the Vietnam War.
> They were welcomed with open arms. 12,000 were in
> combat outfits in the Army and Marines. 134 died.
> They are on The Wall in Washington DC.
>
> So, Canadians took the place of the Americans that
> decided to go to Canada. Pretty well evened out.
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War>
><https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Canadians-Vietnam-Fred-Gaffen/dp/1550020730>
>
>Draft evasion is a problem in any country with a draft. Covid fatigue
>has become a big part of the problem. For example:
>
>"IDF alarmed over growing draft-dodging trend" (July 25, 2022)
><https://www.israelhayom.com/2022/07/25/idf-alarmed-over-increasing-draft-dodging-trend/>
>"The IDF Manpower Directorate estimates that youngsters evaded
>conscription as a way to "rebel" against the establishment after being
>severely affected by the pandemic when they were forced to stay at
>home and study online for months at a time."

Possible correct, but I can remember way back to the WW II days when
people actually volunteered to go off to war and their relatives were
so proud that they displayed a posters in the front window to let
everyone know that their Kid, Hubby, whoever, was serving their
country.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 09:57:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>> https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-what-happened-nord-stream-pipeline?yptr=yahoo
>
> Yech. Shopping for a conspiracy or a culprit? Start here:

No, we remember Trump's veiled ultimatum very well. Of course, the
young German socialist triathlete imbecile at the Amt laughed him off
because he could not believe the US was ready to wreck Europe, to
prolong the dollar debt cycle. We have heard Nuland, Condoleeza,
Bidenbot, and the CIA, sketch, imply, "predict," and "warn" in no
uncertain terms for those who can hear.

Anyhow, after reasonable consideration, the search stops here:
https://nitter.net/radeksikorski/status/1574800653724966915#m
Radek Applebaum is so arrogant he isn't making the slightest effort to
hide the Western Elite's congratulations to the US Navy business visit.
> "Baltic Pipe gas pipeline officially opens to reduce dependency on
> Russia" (Sept 28, 2022)
> <https://www.aa.com.tr/en/economy/baltic-pipe-gas-pipeline-officially-opens-to-reduce-dependency-on-russia/2696408>
> "The project was initiated by Poland in 2016 following the Crimean
> War, long before Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in February this year,
> which triggered an energy crisis."

Anadolu London, that's slightly better than the crap Frank presents
after fishing at Yahoo. Note the fine difference between trigger and
cause? Correctly buried under the article's topical quotations from the
Baltic Pipe people.

> Poland just might end up saving Europe.

I'll be generous and put this under Jeff's Middleeuropean Joke of the
Week. Nordstream pipeline was good enough to feed Poland cheap nat-gas
while they shut down their Belarus-routed flow, being too picky to
directly pay Russia. Let's see what prices the timely pipeline builders
will demand for whatever leftover volume they might offer to their
southwesterly neighbors.

--
"To be an enemy of the US is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal."
- Henry Kissinger

On 9/28/2022 11:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.
>
> Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
> deposed, they will surely follow.
>
> Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
> just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
> don't think they can do much with what's left:
> <https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
> <https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
> Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
> activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
> <https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>
>

And in another trend, 'Friends of Vladmir' have developed a
disturbing pattern of defenestration:

https://www.newsweek.com/russians-keep-mysteriously-falling-windows-deaths-1738954

Add that to the various unexplained recent phenomena.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/29/2022 2:57 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:18:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:24:10 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.
>>>>
>>>> Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
>>>> deposed, they will surely follow.
>>>>
>>>> Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
>>>> just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
>>>> don't think they can do much with what's left:
>>>> <https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
>>>> <https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
>>>> Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
>>>> activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
>>>> <https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>
>>
>>> Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the USians who were
>>> scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft back in the
>>> 1960's (:-)
>>
>> <https://www.quora.com/How-many-draft-dodgers-went-to-Canada-during-the-Vietnam-War>
>> About 30,000 Americans went to Canada to avoid
>> the Vietnam War.
>>
>> About 30,000 Canadians traveled South to the
>> US to volunteer and participate in the Vietnam War.
>> They were welcomed with open arms. 12,000 were in
>> combat outfits in the Army and Marines. 134 died.
>> They are on The Wall in Washington DC.
>>
>> So, Canadians took the place of the Americans that
>> decided to go to Canada. Pretty well evened out.
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War>
>> <https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Canadians-Vietnam-Fred-Gaffen/dp/1550020730>
>>
>> Draft evasion is a problem in any country with a draft. Covid fatigue
>> has become a big part of the problem. For example:
>>
>> "IDF alarmed over growing draft-dodging trend" (July 25, 2022)
>> <https://www.israelhayom.com/2022/07/25/idf-alarmed-over-increasing-draft-dodging-trend/>
>> "The IDF Manpower Directorate estimates that youngsters evaded
>> conscription as a way to "rebel" against the establishment after being
>> severely affected by the pandemic when they were forced to stay at
>> home and study online for months at a time."
>
> Possible correct, but I can remember way back to the WW II days when
> people actually volunteered to go off to war and their relatives were
> so proud that they displayed a posters in the front window to let
> everyone know that their Kid, Hubby, whoever, was serving their
> country.
>

Times change but humans do not:

https://blogs.shu.edu/ww2-0/1943/05/16/fbi-cracks-down-on-draft-dodgers-638-arrested/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 6:06:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/29/2022 2:57 AM, John B. wrote:
> > On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:18:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:24:10 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.
> >>>>
> >>>> Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
> >>>> deposed, they will surely follow.
> >>>>
> >>>> Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
> >>>> just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
> >>>> don't think they can do much with what's left:
> >>>> <https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
> >>>> <https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
> >>>> Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
> >>>> activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
> >>>> <https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>
> >>
> >>> Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the USians who were
> >>> scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft back in the
> >>> 1960's (:-)
> >>
> >> <https://www.quora.com/How-many-draft-dodgers-went-to-Canada-during-the-Vietnam-War>
> >> About 30,000 Americans went to Canada to avoid
> >> the Vietnam War.
> >>
> >> About 30,000 Canadians traveled South to the
> >> US to volunteer and participate in the Vietnam War.
> >> They were welcomed with open arms. 12,000 were in
> >> combat outfits in the Army and Marines. 134 died.
> >> They are on The Wall in Washington DC.
> >>
> >> So, Canadians took the place of the Americans that
> >> decided to go to Canada. Pretty well evened out.
> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War>
> >> <https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Canadians-Vietnam-Fred-Gaffen/dp/1550020730>
> >>
> >> Draft evasion is a problem in any country with a draft. Covid fatigue
> >> has become a big part of the problem. For example:
> >>
> >> "IDF alarmed over growing draft-dodging trend" (July 25, 2022)
> >> <https://www.israelhayom.com/2022/07/25/idf-alarmed-over-increasing-draft-dodging-trend/>
> >> "The IDF Manpower Directorate estimates that youngsters evaded
> >> conscription as a way to "rebel" against the establishment after being
> >> severely affected by the pandemic when they were forced to stay at
> >> home and study online for months at a time."
> >
> > Possible correct, but I can remember way back to the WW II days when
> > people actually volunteered to go off to war and their relatives were
> > so proud that they displayed a posters in the front window to let
> > everyone know that their Kid, Hubby, whoever, was serving their
> > country.
> >
> Times change but humans do not:
>
> https://blogs.shu.edu/ww2-0/1943/05/16/fbi-cracks-down-on-draft-dodgers-638-arrested/
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
More Google information from a man who probably has been supported his entire life from an inheritance. WW II brought on another draft after huge numbers of volunteers joined. What did the draft produce? thousands of conscientious objectors who were assigned as medics, cooks and truck drivers. Thousands of these if not killed in a war of attrition returned to a country that despised them. They could only get the lowest of jobs and it wasn't until Korea and the country turned its attention to other things that they were able to recover from those choices.

But apparently the man who has never been outside of his neighborhood knows better.

On 9/29/2022 3:57 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:18:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:24:10 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.
>>>>
>>>> Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
>>>> deposed, they will surely follow.
>>>>
>>>> Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
>>>> just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
>>>> don't think they can do much with what's left:
>>>> <https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
>>>> <https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
>>>> Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
>>>> activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
>>>> <https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>
>>
>>> Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the USians who were
>>> scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft back in the
>>> 1960's (:-)
>>
>> <https://www.quora.com/How-many-draft-dodgers-went-to-Canada-during-the-Vietnam-War>
>> About 30,000 Americans went to Canada to avoid
>> the Vietnam War.
>>
>> About 30,000 Canadians traveled South to the
>> US to volunteer and participate in the Vietnam War.
>> They were welcomed with open arms. 12,000 were in
>> combat outfits in the Army and Marines. 134 died.
>> They are on The Wall in Washington DC.
>>
>> So, Canadians took the place of the Americans that
>> decided to go to Canada. Pretty well evened out.
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War>
>> <https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Canadians-Vietnam-Fred-Gaffen/dp/1550020730>
>>
>> Draft evasion is a problem in any country with a draft. Covid fatigue
>> has become a big part of the problem. For example:
>>
>> "IDF alarmed over growing draft-dodging trend" (July 25, 2022)
>> <https://www.israelhayom.com/2022/07/25/idf-alarmed-over-increasing-draft-dodging-trend/>
>> "The IDF Manpower Directorate estimates that youngsters evaded
>> conscription as a way to "rebel" against the establishment after being
>> severely affected by the pandemic when they were forced to stay at
>> home and study online for months at a time."
>
> Possible correct, but I can remember way back to the WW II days when
> people actually volunteered to go off to war and their relatives were
> so proud that they displayed a posters in the front window to let
> everyone know that their Kid, Hubby, whoever, was serving their
> country.

I'm sure there have been both volunteers and "dodgers" in every war. (In
the days of the U.S. Civil War, a Yankee could legally buy his way out
of service.) But I'm also sure that the balance varied from war to war,
based on public perceptions of the war's justification.

After Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, doubts about the wisdom of U.S.
involvement shrank radically. That was the last straw after reports of
European horrors.

Viet Nam, like certain other "special military operations" by the U.S.,
had no similar justification. "The domino effect" just didn't cut it in
most people's minds. It's not surprising that a significant number of
guys decided to evade draft.

Ultimately, in those situations everyone has to consider the personal
benefits vs. detriments. For some, giving one's life in support of crown
or country seems like a wonderful choice. For others, not so much. and
that balance changes based on what "crown or country" are trying to
achieve.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 5:36:43 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/29/2022 3:57 AM, John B. wrote:
> > On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:18:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:24:10 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.
> >>>>
> >>>> Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
> >>>> deposed, they will surely follow.
> >>>>
> >>>> Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
> >>>> just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
> >>>> don't think they can do much with what's left:
> >>>> <https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
> >>>> <https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
> >>>> Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
> >>>> activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
> >>>> <https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>
> >>
> >>> Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the USians who were
> >>> scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft back in the
> >>> 1960's (:-)
> >>
> >> <https://www.quora.com/How-many-draft-dodgers-went-to-Canada-during-the-Vietnam-War>
> >> About 30,000 Americans went to Canada to avoid
> >> the Vietnam War.
> >>
> >> About 30,000 Canadians traveled South to the
> >> US to volunteer and participate in the Vietnam War.
> >> They were welcomed with open arms. 12,000 were in
> >> combat outfits in the Army and Marines. 134 died.
> >> They are on The Wall in Washington DC.
> >>
> >> So, Canadians took the place of the Americans that
> >> decided to go to Canada. Pretty well evened out.
> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War>
> >> <https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Canadians-Vietnam-Fred-Gaffen/dp/1550020730>
> >>
> >> Draft evasion is a problem in any country with a draft. Covid fatigue
> >> has become a big part of the problem. For example:
> >>
> >> "IDF alarmed over growing draft-dodging trend" (July 25, 2022)
> >> <https://www.israelhayom.com/2022/07/25/idf-alarmed-over-increasing-draft-dodging-trend/>
> >> "The IDF Manpower Directorate estimates that youngsters evaded
> >> conscription as a way to "rebel" against the establishment after being
> >> severely affected by the pandemic when they were forced to stay at
> >> home and study online for months at a time."
> >
> > Possible correct, but I can remember way back to the WW II days when
> > people actually volunteered to go off to war and their relatives were
> > so proud that they displayed a posters in the front window to let
> > everyone know that their Kid, Hubby, whoever, was serving their
> > country.
> I'm sure there have been both volunteers and "dodgers" in every war. (In
> the days of the U.S. Civil War, a Yankee could legally buy his way out
> of service.) But I'm also sure that the balance varied from war to war,
> based on public perceptions of the war's justification.
>
> After Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, doubts about the wisdom of U.S.
> involvement shrank radically. That was the last straw after reports of
> European horrors.
>
> Viet Nam, like certain other "special military operations" by the U.S.,
> had no similar justification. "The domino effect" just didn't cut it in
> most people's minds. It's not surprising that a significant number of
> guys decided to evade draft.
>
> Ultimately, in those situations everyone has to consider the personal
> benefits vs. detriments. For some, giving one's life in support of crown
> or country seems like a wonderful choice. For others, not so much. and
> that balance changes based on what "crown or country" are trying to
> achieve.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>
Classic. As in classic draft-dodger bullshit. Once a shirker and a coward, always a shirker and a coward. Not a thought for the poor kid from the ghetto who died in his place. -- Unsigned out of contempt.

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:

> On 9/28/2022 10:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 8:42:23 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 9/28/2022 9:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 2:05:57 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
>>>>> https://townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2022/09/27/the-world-wants-no-part-of-woke-but-its-glad-we-do-n2613688
>>>>>
>>>>> It wasn't "Americans" who screwed the United States with "woke"
>>>>> ideology, Mr Hanson. It was the Democrat Party pandering to its
>>>>> insane left wing, and its intimidated so-called "centre" or, even
>>>>> more risibly, "moderates" doing absolutely nothing about it for
>>>>> fear of being cancelled.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are too many Americans to be lumped together. The good
>>>>> people need to identify the America-haters and put them down with
>>>>> utmost brutality as an existential threat, for reasons Victor
>>>>> Davis Hanson has pithily summarised in a very short article.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andre Jute
>>>>> Credit where it is due, and specific blame where compromise is no
>>>>> longer possible.
>>>>
>>>> The Slime Stream Media is crying Climate Change but blaming Putin
>>>> for the destruction of the Russian-European natural gas
>>>> pipeline. Methane is one of the most powerful greenhouse gases and
>>>> Biden stated that IF Russia invaded the Ukraine he would blow the
>>>> pipeline up. And you certainly can't blame Russia - a country
>>>> teetering on Bankruptcy for destroying a major source of hard
>>>> income.
>>>>
>>>> So again the left is exposed for their utter hypocrisy. They
>>>> couldn't care less about climate change - that is for the little
>>>> man that they convinced it was real. Well, Methane (natural gas)
>>>> is real and the destruction of that pipeline was a greater blow to
>>>> the environment than the 1960's to 980's car culture.
>>>>
>>> The pipeline attack is like an Agatha Christie piece- way
>>> too many actors with both means and motivation.
>> There were THREE very large underwater explosions. There are not a
>> lot of people that can accomplish that without leaving traces all
>> over the place. Andre points out to what occurs to losers in the
>> Russian political atmosphere. Putin used to be the head of the KGB
>> so he is well aware of what can and might be done. Especially now
>> that his attack on the Ukraine has turned into losing the cream of
>> his military might. Does anyone with a shred of intelligence believe
>> that supplying nothing more than cannon fodder is going to change
>> things?
>>
>> No, the only one with a motive and the capability was Biden and he
>> told the entire world in a press conference that he intended to do
>> just that.
>>
>
> It's not a technically daunting problem. No need for submarines or UDT
> or SBS commandos. As noted in a British paper yesterday the routes are
> well publicized. One need only pass a 'fishing' trawler across the
> path, drop a timed explosive and keep moving. 'Timed explosive' can be
> an hour or a day or a week.

Very near, or inside, the Danish or Swedish economic zones? I'll bet
fishing trawlers are pretty well surveiled. On the other hand I'm not
sure I would bet on dropping an explosive (estimated 500 Kg TNT
equivalent) accurately enough through 90 meters of seawater, that sounds
like a bit of a challenge.

On 9/29/2022 11:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/29/2022 3:57 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:18:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
>> <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:24:10 +0700, John B.
>>> <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
>>>> <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there.
>>>>>> Were he in the least interested in his own people he
>>>>>> would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in
>>>>>> fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But
>>>>>> I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the
>>>>>> rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at
>>>>>> attention and allow their youth - the flower of a
>>>>>> generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to
>>>>>> their doom.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to
>>>>> Putin. If Putin is
>>>>> deposed, they will surely follow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired
>>>>> soldiers. 194,000
>>>>> just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more
>>>>> to follow. I
>>>>> don't think they can do much with what's left:
>>>>> <https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
>>>>>
>>>>> Read about what happened with the Russian reservists
>>>>> when they were
>>>>> activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
>>>>> <https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>
>>>
>>>> Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the
>>>> USians who were
>>>> scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft
>>>> back in the
>>>> 1960's (:-)
>>>
>>> <https://www.quora.com/How-many-draft-dodgers-went-to-Canada-during-the-Vietnam-War>
>>>
>>> About 30,000 Americans went to Canada to avoid
>>> the Vietnam War.
>>>
>>> About 30,000 Canadians traveled South to the
>>> US to volunteer and participate in the Vietnam War.
>>> They were welcomed with open arms. 12,000 were in
>>> combat outfits in the Army and Marines. 134 died.
>>> They are on The Wall in Washington DC.
>>>
>>> So, Canadians took the place of the Americans that
>>> decided to go to Canada. Pretty well evened out.
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War>
>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Canadians-Vietnam-Fred-Gaffen/dp/1550020730>
>>>
>>>
>>> Draft evasion is a problem in any country with a draft.
>>> Covid fatigue
>>> has become a big part of the problem. For example:
>>>
>>> "IDF alarmed over growing draft-dodging trend" (July 25,
>>> 2022)
>>> <https://www.israelhayom.com/2022/07/25/idf-alarmed-over-increasing-draft-dodging-trend/>
>>>
>>> "The IDF Manpower Directorate estimates that youngsters
>>> evaded
>>> conscription as a way to "rebel" against the
>>> establishment after being
>>> severely affected by the pandemic when they were forced
>>> to stay at
>>> home and study online for months at a time."
>>
>> Possible correct, but I can remember way back to the WW II
>> days when
>> people actually volunteered to go off to war and their
>> relatives were
>> so proud that they displayed a posters in the front window
>> to let
>> everyone know that their Kid, Hubby, whoever, was serving
>> their
>> country.
>
> I'm sure there have been both volunteers and "dodgers" in
> every war. (In the days of the U.S. Civil War, a Yankee
> could legally buy his way out of service.) But I'm also sure
> that the balance varied from war to war, based on public
> perceptions of the war's justification.
>
> After Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, doubts about the wisdom
> of U.S. involvement shrank radically. That was the last
> straw after reports of European horrors.
>
> Viet Nam, like certain other "special military operations"
> by the U.S., had no similar justification. "The domino
> effect" just didn't cut it in most people's minds. It's not
> surprising that a significant number of guys decided to
> evade draft.
>
> Ultimately, in those situations everyone has to consider the
> personal benefits vs. detriments. For some, giving one's
> life in support of crown or country seems like a wonderful
> choice. For others, not so much. and that balance changes
> based on what "crown or country" are trying to achieve.
>

Britain entered WWII in defense of Poland. We entered the
Korean peninsula in defense of ROK, Indochina in defense of
RVN. Is there some fundamental difference I missed?

(our entry to WWII was after Pearl Harbor and the next day
Germany declared against us so hardly a 'war of choice' for USA)

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/29/2022 1:01 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>
>> On 9/28/2022 10:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 8:42:23 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 9/28/2022 9:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 2:05:57 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
>>>>>> https://townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2022/09/27/the-world-wants-no-part-of-woke-but-its-glad-we-do-n2613688
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It wasn't "Americans" who screwed the United States with "woke"
>>>>>> ideology, Mr Hanson. It was the Democrat Party pandering to its
>>>>>> insane left wing, and its intimidated so-called "centre" or, even
>>>>>> more risibly, "moderates" doing absolutely nothing about it for
>>>>>> fear of being cancelled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are too many Americans to be lumped together. The good
>>>>>> people need to identify the America-haters and put them down with
>>>>>> utmost brutality as an existential threat, for reasons Victor
>>>>>> Davis Hanson has pithily summarised in a very short article.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andre Jute
>>>>>> Credit where it is due, and specific blame where compromise is no
>>>>>> longer possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Slime Stream Media is crying Climate Change but blaming Putin
>>>>> for the destruction of the Russian-European natural gas
>>>>> pipeline. Methane is one of the most powerful greenhouse gases and
>>>>> Biden stated that IF Russia invaded the Ukraine he would blow the
>>>>> pipeline up. And you certainly can't blame Russia - a country
>>>>> teetering on Bankruptcy for destroying a major source of hard
>>>>> income.
>>>>>
>>>>> So again the left is exposed for their utter hypocrisy. They
>>>>> couldn't care less about climate change - that is for the little
>>>>> man that they convinced it was real. Well, Methane (natural gas)
>>>>> is real and the destruction of that pipeline was a greater blow to
>>>>> the environment than the 1960's to 980's car culture.
>>>>>
>>>> The pipeline attack is like an Agatha Christie piece- way
>>>> too many actors with both means and motivation.
>>> There were THREE very large underwater explosions. There are not a
>>> lot of people that can accomplish that without leaving traces all
>>> over the place. Andre points out to what occurs to losers in the
>>> Russian political atmosphere. Putin used to be the head of the KGB
>>> so he is well aware of what can and might be done. Especially now
>>> that his attack on the Ukraine has turned into losing the cream of
>>> his military might. Does anyone with a shred of intelligence believe
>>> that supplying nothing more than cannon fodder is going to change
>>> things?
>>>
>>> No, the only one with a motive and the capability was Biden and he
>>> told the entire world in a press conference that he intended to do
>>> just that.
>>>
>>
>> It's not a technically daunting problem. No need for submarines or UDT
>> or SBS commandos. As noted in a British paper yesterday the routes are
>> well publicized. One need only pass a 'fishing' trawler across the
>> path, drop a timed explosive and keep moving. 'Timed explosive' can be
>> an hour or a day or a week.
>
> Very near, or inside, the Danish or Swedish economic zones? I'll bet
> fishing trawlers are pretty well surveiled. On the other hand I'm not
> sure I would bet on dropping an explosive (estimated 500 Kg TNT
> equivalent) accurately enough through 90 meters of seawater, that sounds
> like a bit of a challenge.
>

I don't know. My search yesterday was fruitless and I don't
know anyone with relevant military experience so you may be
right. Or not.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:03:42 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>And in another trend, 'Friends of Vladmir' have developed a
>disturbing pattern of defenestration:
>
>https://www.newsweek.com/russians-keep-mysteriously-falling-windows-deaths-1738954
>
>Add that to the various unexplained recent phenomena.

"The Forbes Ultimate Guide To Russian Oligarchs"
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/giacomotognini/2022/04/07/the-forbes-ultimate-guide-to-russian-oligarchs/?sh=4b40bc31276d>
"After Vladimir Putin rose to power in 2000, he helped make a number
of them richer and rewarded his closest cronies by turning them into
billionaires. There are 83 Russians on this year’s Billionaires list;
we consider 68 of them to be oligarchs. Another 18 oligarchs were
billionaires before the war but have lost too much money since the
invasion of Ukraine to qualify for our ranking."

There are 68 oligarchs in the Russian Federation. At the present rate
of "suicides", they will soon run out of oligarchs. Like Stalin's
purges, this observation is a powerful incentive to watch one's back,
but apparently not sufficient to dissuade others from trying their
luck at surviving a purge. The benefits seem to outweigh the risks. I
believe the object of the game is to grab as much wealth as possible
and then emigrate to a safer country before the inevitable "suicide".

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 9/29/2022 2:24 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/29/2022 11:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/29/2022 3:57 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:18:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
>>> <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:24:10 +0700, John B.
>>>> <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
>>>>> <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there.
>>>>>>> Were he in the least interested in his own people he
>>>>>>> would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in
>>>>>>> fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But
>>>>>>> I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the
>>>>>>> rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at
>>>>>>> attention and allow their youth - the flower of a
>>>>>>> generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to
>>>>>>> their doom.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wrong.  The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to
>>>>>> Putin.  If Putin is
>>>>>> deposed, they will surely follow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired
>>>>>> soldiers. 194,000
>>>>>> just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan.  Probably more
>>>>>> to follow.  I
>>>>>> don't think they can do much with what's left:
>>>>>> <https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Read about what happened with the Russian reservists
>>>>>> when they were
>>>>>> activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
>>>>>> <https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>
>>>>
>>>>> Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the
>>>>> USians who were
>>>>> scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft
>>>>> back in the
>>>>> 1960's (:-)
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.quora.com/How-many-draft-dodgers-went-to-Canada-during-the-Vietnam-War>
>>>>
>>>>     About 30,000 Americans went to Canada to avoid
>>>>     the Vietnam War.
>>>>
>>>>     About 30,000 Canadians traveled South to the
>>>>     US to volunteer and participate in the Vietnam War.
>>>>     They were welcomed with open arms. 12,000 were in
>>>>     combat outfits in the Army and Marines. 134 died.
>>>>     They are on The Wall in Washington DC.
>>>>
>>>>     So, Canadians took the place of the Americans that
>>>>     decided to go to Canada. Pretty well evened out.
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War>
>>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Canadians-Vietnam-Fred-Gaffen/dp/1550020730>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Draft evasion is a problem in any country with a draft.
>>>> Covid fatigue
>>>> has become a big part of the problem.  For example:
>>>>
>>>> "IDF alarmed over growing draft-dodging trend"  (July 25,
>>>> 2022)
>>>> <https://www.israelhayom.com/2022/07/25/idf-alarmed-over-increasing-draft-dodging-trend/>
>>>>
>>>> "The IDF Manpower Directorate estimates that youngsters
>>>> evaded
>>>> conscription as a way to "rebel" against the
>>>> establishment after being
>>>> severely affected by the pandemic when they were forced
>>>> to stay at
>>>> home and study online for months at a time."
>>>
>>> Possible correct, but I can remember way back to the WW II
>>> days when
>>> people actually volunteered to go off to war and their
>>> relatives were
>>> so proud that they displayed a posters in the front window
>>> to let
>>> everyone know that their Kid, Hubby, whoever, was serving
>>> their
>>> country.
>>
>> I'm sure there have been both volunteers and "dodgers" in
>> every war. (In the days of the U.S. Civil War, a Yankee
>> could legally buy his way out of service.) But I'm also sure
>> that the balance varied from war to war, based on public
>> perceptions of the war's justification.
>>
>> After Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, doubts about the wisdom
>> of U.S. involvement shrank radically. That was the last
>> straw after reports of European horrors.
>>
>> Viet Nam, like certain other "special military operations"
>> by the U.S., had no similar justification. "The domino
>> effect" just didn't cut it in most people's minds. It's not
>> surprising that a significant number of guys decided to
>> evade draft.
>>
>> Ultimately, in those situations everyone has to consider the
>> personal benefits vs. detriments. For some, giving one's
>> life in support of crown or country seems like a wonderful
>> choice. For others, not so much. and that balance changes
>> based on what "crown or country" are trying to achieve.
>>
>
> Britain entered WWII in defense of Poland.  We entered the Korean
> peninsula in defense of ROK, Indochina in defense of RVN. Is there some
> fundamental difference I missed?
>
> (our entry to WWII was after Pearl Harbor and the next day Germany
> declared against us so hardly a 'war of choice' for USA)
>

As I understand it (and I'm no expert) the European nations were a
tangle of treaties and alliances. But having experienced The Great War
AKA WWI, it's no surprise if Britain thought early action was prudent
against Germany.

But you're certainly correct that WW2 was not a war of choice for the
U.S. Consequently the great bulk of American society and its young men
(including my father) reacted very differently to it than to Viet Nam.

This makes my point quite precisely. A person's attitude and choice
toward military service depends greatly on what the country is
attempting to achieve.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 9:51:05 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 5:36:43 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/29/2022 3:57 AM, John B. wrote:
> > > On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:18:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:24:10 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> > >>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
> > >>>> deposed, they will surely follow.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
> > >>>> just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
> > >>>> don't think they can do much with what's left:
> > >>>> <https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
> > >>>> <https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
> > >>>> Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
> > >>>> activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
> > >>>> <https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>
> > >>
> > >>> Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the USians who were
> > >>> scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft back in the
> > >>> 1960's (:-)
> > >>
> > >> <https://www.quora.com/How-many-draft-dodgers-went-to-Canada-during-the-Vietnam-War>
> > >> About 30,000 Americans went to Canada to avoid
> > >> the Vietnam War.
> > >>
> > >> About 30,000 Canadians traveled South to the
> > >> US to volunteer and participate in the Vietnam War.
> > >> They were welcomed with open arms. 12,000 were in
> > >> combat outfits in the Army and Marines. 134 died.
> > >> They are on The Wall in Washington DC.
> > >>
> > >> So, Canadians took the place of the Americans that
> > >> decided to go to Canada. Pretty well evened out.
> > >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War>
> > >> <https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Canadians-Vietnam-Fred-Gaffen/dp/1550020730>
> > >>
> > >> Draft evasion is a problem in any country with a draft. Covid fatigue
> > >> has become a big part of the problem. For example:
> > >>
> > >> "IDF alarmed over growing draft-dodging trend" (July 25, 2022)
> > >> <https://www.israelhayom.com/2022/07/25/idf-alarmed-over-increasing-draft-dodging-trend/>
> > >> "The IDF Manpower Directorate estimates that youngsters evaded
> > >> conscription as a way to "rebel" against the establishment after being
> > >> severely affected by the pandemic when they were forced to stay at
> > >> home and study online for months at a time."
> > >
> > > Possible correct, but I can remember way back to the WW II days when
> > > people actually volunteered to go off to war and their relatives were
> > > so proud that they displayed a posters in the front window to let
> > > everyone know that their Kid, Hubby, whoever, was serving their
> > > country.
> > I'm sure there have been both volunteers and "dodgers" in every war. (In
> > the days of the U.S. Civil War, a Yankee could legally buy his way out
> > of service.) But I'm also sure that the balance varied from war to war,
> > based on public perceptions of the war's justification.
> >
> > After Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, doubts about the wisdom of U.S.
> > involvement shrank radically. That was the last straw after reports of
> > European horrors.
> >
> > Viet Nam, like certain other "special military operations" by the U.S.,
> > had no similar justification. "The domino effect" just didn't cut it in
> > most people's minds. It's not surprising that a significant number of
> > guys decided to evade draft.
> >
> > Ultimately, in those situations everyone has to consider the personal
> > benefits vs. detriments. For some, giving one's life in support of crown
> > or country seems like a wonderful choice. For others, not so much. and
> > that balance changes based on what "crown or country" are trying to
> > achieve.
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> >
> Classic. As in classic draft-dodger bullshit. Once a shirker and a coward, always a shirker and a coward. Not a thought for the poor kid from the ghetto who died in his place. -- Unsigned out of contempt.
When he was born, his parents looked at him and said, "Yeah, he's really a Francis". So the cowardice oozed out of every pore in his body.

On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 11:01:03 AM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>
> > On 9/28/2022 10:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 8:42:23 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 9/28/2022 9:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 2:05:57 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> >>>>> https://townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2022/09/27/the-world-wants-no-part-of-woke-but-its-glad-we-do-n2613688
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It wasn't "Americans" who screwed the United States with "woke"
> >>>>> ideology, Mr Hanson. It was the Democrat Party pandering to its
> >>>>> insane left wing, and its intimidated so-called "centre" or, even
> >>>>> more risibly, "moderates" doing absolutely nothing about it for
> >>>>> fear of being cancelled.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There are too many Americans to be lumped together. The good
> >>>>> people need to identify the America-haters and put them down with
> >>>>> utmost brutality as an existential threat, for reasons Victor
> >>>>> Davis Hanson has pithily summarised in a very short article.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andre Jute
> >>>>> Credit where it is due, and specific blame where compromise is no
> >>>>> longer possible.
> >>>>
> >>>> The Slime Stream Media is crying Climate Change but blaming Putin
> >>>> for the destruction of the Russian-European natural gas
> >>>> pipeline. Methane is one of the most powerful greenhouse gases and
> >>>> Biden stated that IF Russia invaded the Ukraine he would blow the
> >>>> pipeline up. And you certainly can't blame Russia - a country
> >>>> teetering on Bankruptcy for destroying a major source of hard
> >>>> income.
> >>>>
> >>>> So again the left is exposed for their utter hypocrisy. They
> >>>> couldn't care less about climate change - that is for the little
> >>>> man that they convinced it was real. Well, Methane (natural gas)
> >>>> is real and the destruction of that pipeline was a greater blow to
> >>>> the environment than the 1960's to 980's car culture.
> >>>>
> >>> The pipeline attack is like an Agatha Christie piece- way
> >>> too many actors with both means and motivation.
> >> There were THREE very large underwater explosions. There are not a
> >> lot of people that can accomplish that without leaving traces all
> >> over the place. Andre points out to what occurs to losers in the
> >> Russian political atmosphere. Putin used to be the head of the KGB
> >> so he is well aware of what can and might be done. Especially now
> >> that his attack on the Ukraine has turned into losing the cream of
> >> his military might. Does anyone with a shred of intelligence believe
> >> that supplying nothing more than cannon fodder is going to change
> >> things?
> >>
> >> No, the only one with a motive and the capability was Biden and he
> >> told the entire world in a press conference that he intended to do
> >> just that.
> >>
> >
> > It's not a technically daunting problem. No need for submarines or UDT
> > or SBS commandos. As noted in a British paper yesterday the routes are
> > well publicized. One need only pass a 'fishing' trawler across the
> > path, drop a timed explosive and keep moving. 'Timed explosive' can be
> > an hour or a day or a week.
> Very near, or inside, the Danish or Swedish economic zones? I'll bet
> fishing trawlers are pretty well surveiled. On the other hand I'm not
> sure I would bet on dropping an explosive (estimated 500 Kg TNT
> equivalent) accurately enough through 90 meters of seawater, that sounds
> like a bit of a challenge.

a hundred tons of TNT is not very much C4. This doesn't work if you're near. You have to be in direct contact.

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:06:24 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/29/2022 2:57 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:18:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:24:10 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
>>>>> deposed, they will surely follow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
>>>>> just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
>>>>> don't think they can do much with what's left:
>>>>> <https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
>>>>> <https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
>>>>> Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
>>>>> activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
>>>>> <https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>
>>>
>>>> Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the USians who were
>>>> scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft back in the
>>>> 1960's (:-)
>>>
>>> <https://www.quora.com/How-many-draft-dodgers-went-to-Canada-during-the-Vietnam-War>
>>> About 30,000 Americans went to Canada to avoid
>>> the Vietnam War.
>>>
>>> About 30,000 Canadians traveled South to the
>>> US to volunteer and participate in the Vietnam War.
>>> They were welcomed with open arms. 12,000 were in
>>> combat outfits in the Army and Marines. 134 died.
>>> They are on The Wall in Washington DC.
>>>
>>> So, Canadians took the place of the Americans that
>>> decided to go to Canada. Pretty well evened out.
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War>
>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Canadians-Vietnam-Fred-Gaffen/dp/1550020730>
>>>
>>> Draft evasion is a problem in any country with a draft. Covid fatigue
>>> has become a big part of the problem. For example:
>>>
>>> "IDF alarmed over growing draft-dodging trend" (July 25, 2022)
>>> <https://www.israelhayom.com/2022/07/25/idf-alarmed-over-increasing-draft-dodging-trend/>
>>> "The IDF Manpower Directorate estimates that youngsters evaded
>>> conscription as a way to "rebel" against the establishment after being
>>> severely affected by the pandemic when they were forced to stay at
>>> home and study online for months at a time."
>>
>> Possible correct, but I can remember way back to the WW II days when
>> people actually volunteered to go off to war and their relatives were
>> so proud that they displayed a posters in the front window to let
>> everyone know that their Kid, Hubby, whoever, was serving their
>> country.
>>
>
>Times change but humans do not:
>
>https://blogs.shu.edu/ww2-0/1943/05/16/fbi-cracks-down-on-draft-dodgers-638-arrested/

Yup, Terrible! Terrible!

But reality shows that during WW II some 50 million men between
eighteen and forty-five had registered for the draft and 10 million
had been inducted in the military.

So lets see 638/50 million is? 0.0012%

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 9/29/2022 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:06:24 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 9/29/2022 2:57 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:18:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:24:10 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
>>>>>> deposed, they will surely follow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
>>>>>> just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
>>>>>> don't think they can do much with what's left:
>>>>>> <https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
>>>>>> <https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
>>>>>> Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
>>>>>> activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
>>>>>> <https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>
>>>>
>>>>> Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the USians who were
>>>>> scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft back in the
>>>>> 1960's (:-)
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.quora.com/How-many-draft-dodgers-went-to-Canada-during-the-Vietnam-War>
>>>> About 30,000 Americans went to Canada to avoid
>>>> the Vietnam War.
>>>>
>>>> About 30,000 Canadians traveled South to the
>>>> US to volunteer and participate in the Vietnam War.
>>>> They were welcomed with open arms. 12,000 were in
>>>> combat outfits in the Army and Marines. 134 died.
>>>> They are on The Wall in Washington DC.
>>>>
>>>> So, Canadians took the place of the Americans that
>>>> decided to go to Canada. Pretty well evened out.
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War>
>>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Canadians-Vietnam-Fred-Gaffen/dp/1550020730>
>>>>
>>>> Draft evasion is a problem in any country with a draft. Covid fatigue
>>>> has become a big part of the problem. For example:
>>>>
>>>> "IDF alarmed over growing draft-dodging trend" (July 25, 2022)
>>>> <https://www.israelhayom.com/2022/07/25/idf-alarmed-over-increasing-draft-dodging-trend/>
>>>> "The IDF Manpower Directorate estimates that youngsters evaded
>>>> conscription as a way to "rebel" against the establishment after being
>>>> severely affected by the pandemic when they were forced to stay at
>>>> home and study online for months at a time."
>>>
>>> Possible correct, but I can remember way back to the WW II days when
>>> people actually volunteered to go off to war and their relatives were
>>> so proud that they displayed a posters in the front window to let
>>> everyone know that their Kid, Hubby, whoever, was serving their
>>> country.
>>>
>>
>> Times change but humans do not:
>>
>> https://blogs.shu.edu/ww2-0/1943/05/16/fbi-cracks-down-on-draft-dodgers-638-arrested/
>
> Yup, Terrible! Terrible!
>
> But reality shows that during WW II some 50 million men between
> eighteen and forty-five had registered for the draft and 10 million
> had been inducted in the military.
>
> So lets see 638/50 million is? 0.0012%
>

I didn't find a total easily. That report was for one large
raid.
I have read several contemporary accounts of people who
moved, changed name, worked for cash etc as draft dodgers so
I knew there were at least some. How many? No idea but more
than 635.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 13:27:10 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/29/2022 1:01 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>
>>> On 9/28/2022 10:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 8:42:23 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 9/28/2022 9:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 2:05:57 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
>>>>>>> https://townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2022/09/27/the-world-wants-no-part-of-woke-but-its-glad-we-do-n2613688
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It wasn't "Americans" who screwed the United States with "woke"
>>>>>>> ideology, Mr Hanson. It was the Democrat Party pandering to its
>>>>>>> insane left wing, and its intimidated so-called "centre" or, even
>>>>>>> more risibly, "moderates" doing absolutely nothing about it for
>>>>>>> fear of being cancelled.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are too many Americans to be lumped together. The good
>>>>>>> people need to identify the America-haters and put them down with
>>>>>>> utmost brutality as an existential threat, for reasons Victor
>>>>>>> Davis Hanson has pithily summarised in a very short article.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andre Jute
>>>>>>> Credit where it is due, and specific blame where compromise is no
>>>>>>> longer possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Slime Stream Media is crying Climate Change but blaming Putin
>>>>>> for the destruction of the Russian-European natural gas
>>>>>> pipeline. Methane is one of the most powerful greenhouse gases and
>>>>>> Biden stated that IF Russia invaded the Ukraine he would blow the
>>>>>> pipeline up. And you certainly can't blame Russia - a country
>>>>>> teetering on Bankruptcy for destroying a major source of hard
>>>>>> income.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So again the left is exposed for their utter hypocrisy. They
>>>>>> couldn't care less about climate change - that is for the little
>>>>>> man that they convinced it was real. Well, Methane (natural gas)
>>>>>> is real and the destruction of that pipeline was a greater blow to
>>>>>> the environment than the 1960's to 980's car culture.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The pipeline attack is like an Agatha Christie piece- way
>>>>> too many actors with both means and motivation.
>>>> There were THREE very large underwater explosions. There are not a
>>>> lot of people that can accomplish that without leaving traces all
>>>> over the place. Andre points out to what occurs to losers in the
>>>> Russian political atmosphere. Putin used to be the head of the KGB
>>>> so he is well aware of what can and might be done. Especially now
>>>> that his attack on the Ukraine has turned into losing the cream of
>>>> his military might. Does anyone with a shred of intelligence believe
>>>> that supplying nothing more than cannon fodder is going to change
>>>> things?
>>>>
>>>> No, the only one with a motive and the capability was Biden and he
>>>> told the entire world in a press conference that he intended to do
>>>> just that.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not a technically daunting problem. No need for submarines or UDT
>>> or SBS commandos. As noted in a British paper yesterday the routes are
>>> well publicized. One need only pass a 'fishing' trawler across the
>>> path, drop a timed explosive and keep moving. 'Timed explosive' can be
>>> an hour or a day or a week.
>>
>> Very near, or inside, the Danish or Swedish economic zones? I'll bet
>> fishing trawlers are pretty well surveiled. On the other hand I'm not
>> sure I would bet on dropping an explosive (estimated 500 Kg TNT
>> equivalent) accurately enough through 90 meters of seawater, that sounds
>> like a bit of a challenge.
>>
>
>I don't know. My search yesterday was fruitless and I don't
>know anyone with relevant military experience so you may be
>right. Or not.

During WW II the Royal Navy's 450 lb (200 kg) Mark VII depth charge.
Note, this was the total weight of the device which contained 290 lb
(130 kg) TNT

As for effectiveness, the following from the Wikki
The killing radius of a depth charge depends on the depth of
detonation, the payload of the depth charge and the size and strength
of the submarine hull. A depth charge of approximately 220 lb (100 kg)
of TNT (400 MJ) would normally have a killing radius (resulting in a
hull breach) of only 9.8–13.1 ft (3–4 m) against a conventional
1000-ton submarine, while the disablement radius (where the submarine
is not sunk but is put out of commission) would be approximately 26–33
ft (8–10 m). A larger payload increases the radius only slightly
because the effect of an underwater explosion decreases as the cube of
the distance to the target.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_charge#Effectiveness
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 07:34:30 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 6:06:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/29/2022 2:57 AM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:18:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:24:10 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> >>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
>> >>>> deposed, they will surely follow.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
>> >>>> just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
>> >>>> don't think they can do much with what's left:
>> >>>> <https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
>> >>>> <https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
>> >>>> Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
>> >>>> activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
>> >>>> <https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>
>> >>
>> >>> Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the USians who were
>> >>> scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft back in the
>> >>> 1960's (:-)
>> >>
>> >> <https://www.quora.com/How-many-draft-dodgers-went-to-Canada-during-the-Vietnam-War>
>> >> About 30,000 Americans went to Canada to avoid
>> >> the Vietnam War.
>> >>
>> >> About 30,000 Canadians traveled South to the
>> >> US to volunteer and participate in the Vietnam War.
>> >> They were welcomed with open arms. 12,000 were in
>> >> combat outfits in the Army and Marines. 134 died.
>> >> They are on The Wall in Washington DC.
>> >>
>> >> So, Canadians took the place of the Americans that
>> >> decided to go to Canada. Pretty well evened out.
>> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War>
>> >> <https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Canadians-Vietnam-Fred-Gaffen/dp/1550020730>
>> >>
>> >> Draft evasion is a problem in any country with a draft. Covid fatigue
>> >> has become a big part of the problem. For example:
>> >>
>> >> "IDF alarmed over growing draft-dodging trend" (July 25, 2022)
>> >> <https://www.israelhayom.com/2022/07/25/idf-alarmed-over-increasing-draft-dodging-trend/>
>> >> "The IDF Manpower Directorate estimates that youngsters evaded
>> >> conscription as a way to "rebel" against the establishment after being
>> >> severely affected by the pandemic when they were forced to stay at
>> >> home and study online for months at a time."
>> >
>> > Possible correct, but I can remember way back to the WW II days when
>> > people actually volunteered to go off to war and their relatives were
>> > so proud that they displayed a posters in the front window to let
>> > everyone know that their Kid, Hubby, whoever, was serving their
>> > country.
>> >
>> Times change but humans do not:
>>
>> https://blogs.shu.edu/ww2-0/1943/05/16/fbi-cracks-down-on-draft-dodgers-638-arrested/
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>More Google information from a man who probably has been supported his entire life from an inheritance. WW II brought on another draft after huge numbers of volunteers joined. What did the draft produce? thousands of conscientious objectors who were assigned as medics, cooks and truck drivers. Thousands of these if not killed in a war of attrition returned to a country that despised them. They could only get the lowest of jobs and it wasn't until Korea and the country turned its attention to other things that they were able to recover from those choices.
>
Where do you get your fantasies? Given that you were what? One year
old and peeing in your nappies when WW II ended and 6 years old and
still peeing in your pants when the Korean War began. So how do you
know about conscientious objectors.

Vivid imagination? Drunken dreams? Insanity? Lies?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 13:24:58 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/29/2022 11:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/29/2022 3:57 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:18:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
>>> <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:24:10 +0700, John B.
>>>> <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
>>>>> <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there.
>>>>>>> Were he in the least interested in his own people he
>>>>>>> would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in
>>>>>>> fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But
>>>>>>> I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the
>>>>>>> rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at
>>>>>>> attention and allow their youth - the flower of a
>>>>>>> generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to
>>>>>>> their doom.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to
>>>>>> Putin. If Putin is
>>>>>> deposed, they will surely follow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired
>>>>>> soldiers. 194,000
>>>>>> just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more
>>>>>> to follow. I
>>>>>> don't think they can do much with what's left:
>>>>>> <https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Read about what happened with the Russian reservists
>>>>>> when they were
>>>>>> activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
>>>>>> <https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>
>>>>
>>>>> Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the
>>>>> USians who were
>>>>> scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft
>>>>> back in the
>>>>> 1960's (:-)
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.quora.com/How-many-draft-dodgers-went-to-Canada-during-the-Vietnam-War>
>>>>
>>>> About 30,000 Americans went to Canada to avoid
>>>> the Vietnam War.
>>>>
>>>> About 30,000 Canadians traveled South to the
>>>> US to volunteer and participate in the Vietnam War.
>>>> They were welcomed with open arms. 12,000 were in
>>>> combat outfits in the Army and Marines. 134 died.
>>>> They are on The Wall in Washington DC.
>>>>
>>>> So, Canadians took the place of the Americans that
>>>> decided to go to Canada. Pretty well evened out.
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War>
>>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Canadians-Vietnam-Fred-Gaffen/dp/1550020730>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Draft evasion is a problem in any country with a draft.
>>>> Covid fatigue
>>>> has become a big part of the problem. For example:
>>>>
>>>> "IDF alarmed over growing draft-dodging trend" (July 25,
>>>> 2022)
>>>> <https://www.israelhayom.com/2022/07/25/idf-alarmed-over-increasing-draft-dodging-trend/>
>>>>
>>>> "The IDF Manpower Directorate estimates that youngsters
>>>> evaded
>>>> conscription as a way to "rebel" against the
>>>> establishment after being
>>>> severely affected by the pandemic when they were forced
>>>> to stay at
>>>> home and study online for months at a time."
>>>
>>> Possible correct, but I can remember way back to the WW II
>>> days when
>>> people actually volunteered to go off to war and their
>>> relatives were
>>> so proud that they displayed a posters in the front window
>>> to let
>>> everyone know that their Kid, Hubby, whoever, was serving
>>> their
>>> country.
>>
>> I'm sure there have been both volunteers and "dodgers" in
>> every war. (In the days of the U.S. Civil War, a Yankee
>> could legally buy his way out of service.) But I'm also sure
>> that the balance varied from war to war, based on public
>> perceptions of the war's justification.
>>
>> After Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, doubts about the wisdom
>> of U.S. involvement shrank radically. That was the last
>> straw after reports of European horrors.
>>
>> Viet Nam, like certain other "special military operations"
>> by the U.S., had no similar justification. "The domino
>> effect" just didn't cut it in most people's minds. It's not
>> surprising that a significant number of guys decided to
>> evade draft.
>>
>> Ultimately, in those situations everyone has to consider the
>> personal benefits vs. detriments. For some, giving one's
>> life in support of crown or country seems like a wonderful
>> choice. For others, not so much. and that balance changes
>> based on what "crown or country" are trying to achieve.
>>
>
>Britain entered WWII in defense of Poland. We entered the
>Korean peninsula in defense of ROK, Indochina in defense of
>RVN. Is there some fundamental difference I missed?
>
Don't get carried away here.

G.B. and France declared war on Germany in an attempt to limit
Germany's further expansion. Germany had already taken over Austria,
Sudetenland, and part of Czechoslovakia. The "trigger" was, as you
say, the German invasion of Poland.

As for Vietnam, the 1954 Geneva Conference had agreed that
Vietnam would be divided at the 17th parallel until 1956, when
democratic elections would be held under international supervision.
All parties involved agreed to this except for the U.S.

>(our entry to WWII was after Pearl Harbor and the next day
>Germany declared against us so hardly a 'war of choice' for USA)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 9/29/2022 6:12 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 13:27:10 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 9/29/2022 1:01 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 9/28/2022 10:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 8:42:23 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/28/2022 9:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 2:05:57 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
>>>>>>>> https://townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2022/09/27/the-world-wants-no-part-of-woke-but-its-glad-we-do-n2613688
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It wasn't "Americans" who screwed the United States with "woke"
>>>>>>>> ideology, Mr Hanson. It was the Democrat Party pandering to its
>>>>>>>> insane left wing, and its intimidated so-called "centre" or, even
>>>>>>>> more risibly, "moderates" doing absolutely nothing about it for
>>>>>>>> fear of being cancelled.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are too many Americans to be lumped together. The good
>>>>>>>> people need to identify the America-haters and put them down with
>>>>>>>> utmost brutality as an existential threat, for reasons Victor
>>>>>>>> Davis Hanson has pithily summarised in a very short article.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andre Jute
>>>>>>>> Credit where it is due, and specific blame where compromise is no
>>>>>>>> longer possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Slime Stream Media is crying Climate Change but blaming Putin
>>>>>>> for the destruction of the Russian-European natural gas
>>>>>>> pipeline. Methane is one of the most powerful greenhouse gases and
>>>>>>> Biden stated that IF Russia invaded the Ukraine he would blow the
>>>>>>> pipeline up. And you certainly can't blame Russia - a country
>>>>>>> teetering on Bankruptcy for destroying a major source of hard
>>>>>>> income.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So again the left is exposed for their utter hypocrisy. They
>>>>>>> couldn't care less about climate change - that is for the little
>>>>>>> man that they convinced it was real. Well, Methane (natural gas)
>>>>>>> is real and the destruction of that pipeline was a greater blow to
>>>>>>> the environment than the 1960's to 980's car culture.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The pipeline attack is like an Agatha Christie piece- way
>>>>>> too many actors with both means and motivation.
>>>>> There were THREE very large underwater explosions. There are not a
>>>>> lot of people that can accomplish that without leaving traces all
>>>>> over the place. Andre points out to what occurs to losers in the
>>>>> Russian political atmosphere. Putin used to be the head of the KGB
>>>>> so he is well aware of what can and might be done. Especially now
>>>>> that his attack on the Ukraine has turned into losing the cream of
>>>>> his military might. Does anyone with a shred of intelligence believe
>>>>> that supplying nothing more than cannon fodder is going to change
>>>>> things?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, the only one with a motive and the capability was Biden and he
>>>>> told the entire world in a press conference that he intended to do
>>>>> just that.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not a technically daunting problem. No need for submarines or UDT
>>>> or SBS commandos. As noted in a British paper yesterday the routes are
>>>> well publicized. One need only pass a 'fishing' trawler across the
>>>> path, drop a timed explosive and keep moving. 'Timed explosive' can be
>>>> an hour or a day or a week.
>>>
>>> Very near, or inside, the Danish or Swedish economic zones? I'll bet
>>> fishing trawlers are pretty well surveiled. On the other hand I'm not
>>> sure I would bet on dropping an explosive (estimated 500 Kg TNT
>>> equivalent) accurately enough through 90 meters of seawater, that sounds
>>> like a bit of a challenge.
>>>
>>
>> I don't know. My search yesterday was fruitless and I don't
>> know anyone with relevant military experience so you may be
>> right. Or not.
>
> During WW II the Royal Navy's 450 lb (200 kg) Mark VII depth charge.
> Note, this was the total weight of the device which contained 290 lb
> (130 kg) TNT
>
> As for effectiveness, the following from the Wikki
> The killing radius of a depth charge depends on the depth of
> detonation, the payload of the depth charge and the size and strength
> of the submarine hull. A depth charge of approximately 220 lb (100 kg)
> of TNT (400 MJ) would normally have a killing radius (resulting in a
> hull breach) of only 9.8–13.1 ft (3–4 m) against a conventional
> 1000-ton submarine, while the disablement radius (where the submarine
> is not sunk but is put out of commission) would be approximately 26–33
> ft (8–10 m). A larger payload increases the radius only slightly
> because the effect of an underwater explosion decreases as the cube of
> the distance to the target.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_charge#Effectiveness
>

Thanks but there's still a lot we do not know. Submarines
are double-hull steel (or now titanium) but pipelines have a
concrete outer casing and some resilient liner between.
Also, these pipelines are in only 80~100 meters of water,
much more shallow than usual submarine operations.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 18:07:32 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/29/2022 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:06:24 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/29/2022 2:57 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:18:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:24:10 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
>>>>>>> deposed, they will surely follow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
>>>>>>> just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
>>>>>>> don't think they can do much with what's left:
>>>>>>> <https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
>>>>>>> <https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
>>>>>>> Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
>>>>>>> activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
>>>>>>> <https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the USians who were
>>>>>> scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft back in the
>>>>>> 1960's (:-)
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.quora.com/How-many-draft-dodgers-went-to-Canada-during-the-Vietnam-War>
>>>>> About 30,000 Americans went to Canada to avoid
>>>>> the Vietnam War.
>>>>>
>>>>> About 30,000 Canadians traveled South to the
>>>>> US to volunteer and participate in the Vietnam War.
>>>>> They were welcomed with open arms. 12,000 were in
>>>>> combat outfits in the Army and Marines. 134 died.
>>>>> They are on The Wall in Washington DC.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, Canadians took the place of the Americans that
>>>>> decided to go to Canada. Pretty well evened out.
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War>
>>>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Canadians-Vietnam-Fred-Gaffen/dp/1550020730>
>>>>>
>>>>> Draft evasion is a problem in any country with a draft. Covid fatigue
>>>>> has become a big part of the problem. For example:
>>>>>
>>>>> "IDF alarmed over growing draft-dodging trend" (July 25, 2022)
>>>>> <https://www.israelhayom.com/2022/07/25/idf-alarmed-over-increasing-draft-dodging-trend/>
>>>>> "The IDF Manpower Directorate estimates that youngsters evaded
>>>>> conscription as a way to "rebel" against the establishment after being
>>>>> severely affected by the pandemic when they were forced to stay at
>>>>> home and study online for months at a time."
>>>>
>>>> Possible correct, but I can remember way back to the WW II days when
>>>> people actually volunteered to go off to war and their relatives were
>>>> so proud that they displayed a posters in the front window to let
>>>> everyone know that their Kid, Hubby, whoever, was serving their
>>>> country.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Times change but humans do not:
>>>
>>> https://blogs.shu.edu/ww2-0/1943/05/16/fbi-cracks-down-on-draft-dodgers-638-arrested/
>>
>> Yup, Terrible! Terrible!
>>
>> But reality shows that during WW II some 50 million men between
>> eighteen and forty-five had registered for the draft and 10 million
>> had been inducted in the military.
>>
>> So lets see 638/50 million is? 0.0012%
>>
>
>I didn't find a total easily. That report was for one large
>raid.
>I have read several contemporary accounts of people who
>moved, changed name, worked for cash etc as draft dodgers so
>I knew there were at least some. How many? No idea but more
>than 635.

Well, you posted and I replied to your post (:-)

But a further look shows that
Draft evasion accounted for about 4% of the total inducted. About
373,000 alleged evaders were investigated with just over 16,000 being
imprisoned.

More than 72,000 men registering as conscientious objectors (CO),
nearly 52,000 received CO status. Of these, over 25,000 entered the
military in noncombatant roles, another 12,000 went to the Civilian
Public Service program, and nearly 6,000 went to prison.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States#World_War_II
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 20:03:21 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/29/2022 6:12 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 13:27:10 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/29/2022 1:01 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/28/2022 10:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 8:42:23 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/28/2022 9:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 2:05:57 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
>>>>>>>>> https://townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2022/09/27/the-world-wants-no-part-of-woke-but-its-glad-we-do-n2613688
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It wasn't "Americans" who screwed the United States with "woke"
>>>>>>>>> ideology, Mr Hanson. It was the Democrat Party pandering to its
>>>>>>>>> insane left wing, and its intimidated so-called "centre" or, even
>>>>>>>>> more risibly, "moderates" doing absolutely nothing about it for
>>>>>>>>> fear of being cancelled.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are too many Americans to be lumped together. The good
>>>>>>>>> people need to identify the America-haters and put them down with
>>>>>>>>> utmost brutality as an existential threat, for reasons Victor
>>>>>>>>> Davis Hanson has pithily summarised in a very short article.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Andre Jute
>>>>>>>>> Credit where it is due, and specific blame where compromise is no
>>>>>>>>> longer possible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Slime Stream Media is crying Climate Change but blaming Putin
>>>>>>>> for the destruction of the Russian-European natural gas
>>>>>>>> pipeline. Methane is one of the most powerful greenhouse gases and
>>>>>>>> Biden stated that IF Russia invaded the Ukraine he would blow the
>>>>>>>> pipeline up. And you certainly can't blame Russia - a country
>>>>>>>> teetering on Bankruptcy for destroying a major source of hard
>>>>>>>> income.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So again the left is exposed for their utter hypocrisy. They
>>>>>>>> couldn't care less about climate change - that is for the little
>>>>>>>> man that they convinced it was real. Well, Methane (natural gas)
>>>>>>>> is real and the destruction of that pipeline was a greater blow to
>>>>>>>> the environment than the 1960's to 980's car culture.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The pipeline attack is like an Agatha Christie piece- way
>>>>>>> too many actors with both means and motivation.
>>>>>> There were THREE very large underwater explosions. There are not a
>>>>>> lot of people that can accomplish that without leaving traces all
>>>>>> over the place. Andre points out to what occurs to losers in the
>>>>>> Russian political atmosphere. Putin used to be the head of the KGB
>>>>>> so he is well aware of what can and might be done. Especially now
>>>>>> that his attack on the Ukraine has turned into losing the cream of
>>>>>> his military might. Does anyone with a shred of intelligence believe
>>>>>> that supplying nothing more than cannon fodder is going to change
>>>>>> things?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, the only one with a motive and the capability was Biden and he
>>>>>> told the entire world in a press conference that he intended to do
>>>>>> just that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not a technically daunting problem. No need for submarines or UDT
>>>>> or SBS commandos. As noted in a British paper yesterday the routes are
>>>>> well publicized. One need only pass a 'fishing' trawler across the
>>>>> path, drop a timed explosive and keep moving. 'Timed explosive' can be
>>>>> an hour or a day or a week.
>>>>
>>>> Very near, or inside, the Danish or Swedish economic zones? I'll bet
>>>> fishing trawlers are pretty well surveiled. On the other hand I'm not
>>>> sure I would bet on dropping an explosive (estimated 500 Kg TNT
>>>> equivalent) accurately enough through 90 meters of seawater, that sounds
>>>> like a bit of a challenge.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know. My search yesterday was fruitless and I don't
>>> know anyone with relevant military experience so you may be
>>> right. Or not.
>>
>> During WW II the Royal Navy's 450 lb (200 kg) Mark VII depth charge.
>> Note, this was the total weight of the device which contained 290 lb
>> (130 kg) TNT
>>
>> As for effectiveness, the following from the Wikki
>> The killing radius of a depth charge depends on the depth of
>> detonation, the payload of the depth charge and the size and strength
>> of the submarine hull. A depth charge of approximately 220 lb (100 kg)
>> of TNT (400 MJ) would normally have a killing radius (resulting in a
>> hull breach) of only 9.8–13.1 ft (3–4 m) against a conventional
>> 1000-ton submarine, while the disablement radius (where the submarine
>> is not sunk but is put out of commission) would be approximately 26–33
>> ft (8–10 m). A larger payload increases the radius only slightly
>> because the effect of an underwater explosion decreases as the cube of
>> the distance to the target.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_charge#Effectiveness
>>
>
>Thanks but there's still a lot we do not know. Submarines
>are double-hull steel (or now titanium) but pipelines have a
>concrete outer casing and some resilient liner between.
>Also, these pipelines are in only 80~100 meters of water,
>much more shallow than usual submarine operations.

Pipe lines vary in construction but here is more detail about the Nord
Stream pipeline
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzibtVSamrY

Re Submarines. I think that WW II subs were single plate hulls with
external buoyancy chambers, while more modern vessels are the "two
hull" design.

Another point is that the pipeline has probably sunk below the normal
sea bed which might have an effect on explosions.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 13:27:10 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>On 9/29/2022 1:01 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 9/28/2022 10:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 8:42:23 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/28/2022 9:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 2:05:57 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
>>>>>>>> https://townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2022/09/27/the-world-wants-no-part-of-woke-but-its-glad-we-do-n2613688
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It wasn't "Americans" who screwed the United States with "woke"
>>>>>>>> ideology, Mr Hanson. It was the Democrat Party pandering to its
>>>>>>>> insane left wing, and its intimidated so-called "centre" or, even
>>>>>>>> more risibly, "moderates" doing absolutely nothing about it for
>>>>>>>> fear of being cancelled.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are too many Americans to be lumped together. The good
>>>>>>>> people need to identify the America-haters and put them down with
>>>>>>>> utmost brutality as an existential threat, for reasons Victor
>>>>>>>> Davis Hanson has pithily summarised in a very short article.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andre Jute
>>>>>>>> Credit where it is due, and specific blame where compromise is no
>>>>>>>> longer possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Slime Stream Media is crying Climate Change but blaming Putin
>>>>>>> for the destruction of the Russian-European natural gas
>>>>>>> pipeline. Methane is one of the most powerful greenhouse gases and
>>>>>>> Biden stated that IF Russia invaded the Ukraine he would blow the
>>>>>>> pipeline up. And you certainly can't blame Russia - a country
>>>>>>> teetering on Bankruptcy for destroying a major source of hard
>>>>>>> income.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So again the left is exposed for their utter hypocrisy. They
>>>>>>> couldn't care less about climate change - that is for the little
>>>>>>> man that they convinced it was real. Well, Methane (natural gas)
>>>>>>> is real and the destruction of that pipeline was a greater blow to
>>>>>>> the environment than the 1960's to 980's car culture.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The pipeline attack is like an Agatha Christie piece- way
>>>>>> too many actors with both means and motivation.
>>>>> There were THREE very large underwater explosions. There are not a
>>>>> lot of people that can accomplish that without leaving traces all
>>>>> over the place. Andre points out to what occurs to losers in the
>>>>> Russian political atmosphere. Putin used to be the head of the KGB
>>>>> so he is well aware of what can and might be done. Especially now
>>>>> that his attack on the Ukraine has turned into losing the cream of
>>>>> his military might. Does anyone with a shred of intelligence believe
>>>>> that supplying nothing more than cannon fodder is going to change
>>>>> things?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, the only one with a motive and the capability was Biden and he
>>>>> told the entire world in a press conference that he intended to do
>>>>> just that.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not a technically daunting problem. No need for submarines or UDT
>>>> or SBS commandos. As noted in a British paper yesterday the routes are
>>>> well publicized. One need only pass a 'fishing' trawler across the
>>>> path, drop a timed explosive and keep moving. 'Timed explosive' can be
>>>> an hour or a day or a week.
>>>
>>> Very near, or inside, the Danish or Swedish economic zones? I'll bet
>>> fishing trawlers are pretty well surveiled. On the other hand I'm not
>>> sure I would bet on dropping an explosive (estimated 500 Kg TNT
>>> equivalent) accurately enough through 90 meters of seawater, that sounds
>>> like a bit of a challenge.
>>>
>>
>>I don't know. My search yesterday was fruitless and I don't
>>know anyone with relevant military experience so you may be
>>right. Or not.
>
> During WW II the Royal Navy's 450 lb (200 kg) Mark VII depth charge.
> Note, this was the total weight of the device which contained 290 lb
> (130 kg) TNT
>
> As for effectiveness, the following from the Wikki
> The killing radius of a depth charge depends on the depth of
> detonation, the payload of the depth charge and the size and strength
> of the submarine hull. A depth charge of approximately 220 lb (100 kg)
> of TNT (400 MJ) would normally have a killing radius (resulting in a
> hull breach) of only 9.8–13.1 ft (3–4 m) against a conventional
> 1000-ton submarine, while the disablement radius (where the submarine
> is not sunk but is put out of commission) would be approximately 26–33
> ft (8–10 m). A larger payload increases the radius only slightly
> because the effect of an underwater explosion decreases as the cube of
> the distance to the target.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_charge#Effectiveness

Those radii seem pretty small to me. I can easily imagine a depth
charge drifting horizontally more than 10 feet, due to current and so
forth. I'll bet the pipeline was quite a bit tougher than a WW II sub,