On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 08:57:41 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 8:18:46 AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 05:37:56 -0800 (PST), Tim R
>> <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 11:24:58 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 5:14:24 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > It says more about you than him. But it also sends a message that US Christians are impossible to shame no matter what their behavior.
>> >> Tim, do I not have a Christmas spirit being angry at what the Democrats have done and are doing to the middle class who will very soon be the poor? My anger is for THEM and not for me.
>> >
>> >It would appear you demonstrate Christian values only when it's easy to do so - as soon as you let someone make you angry they go out the window. You're certainly in good company - but Jesus didn't promise your faith would be easy. Time to work on that.
>> >
>> >Secondly, if you define yourself by what makes you indignant - and I'm speaking in general here, not just to Tom, but he may be the poster child in this group - then you are owning a lot of unnecessary misery. Define yourself by what you show gratitude for, and it goes a long way to make you happier.
>> Attempting to define one self to others is a wasted effort, most often
>> done by those with type B personalities. It's better to simply be what
>> you are. Let the cards fall where ever they fall and let others
>> believe whatever they want to believe.
>
>Even Christ in anger cast the money lenders from the Temple.
And Tim wants to define Christian values when he doesn't even know
what they are. Do you suppose he ever set foot in the door of a
church? I was educated by nuns.

So tell us, just what are "Christian Values"?
Do you mean like when the "Christian" conquered Jerusalem and killed
every person in the city. It was said that blood ran ankle deep in the
streets? Or maybe it was the Christian Papal legate and Cistercian
abbot Arnaud Amalric ordered "Kill them all; let God sort them out",
Or maybe the Inquisitions, which was officially established in 1229
and ended in started in 12 began in about 1184 and finally 1908 the
name of the Congregation became "The Sacred Congregation of the Holy
Office", which in 1965 further changed to "Congregation for the
Doctrine of the Faith", as retained to the present day.
How many did the Inquisition kill? Nobody knows but certainly the
number is in the thousands.

Yes, tell us more about your "Christian Values".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 07:42:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 08:57:41 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 8:18:46 AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 05:37:56 -0800 (PST), Tim R
>>> <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 11:24:58 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> >> On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 5:14:24 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> >> > It says more about you than him. But it also sends a message that US Christians are impossible to shame no matter what their behavior.
>>> >> Tim, do I not have a Christmas spirit being angry at what the Democrats have done and are doing to the middle class who will very soon be the poor? My anger is for THEM and not for me.
>>> >
>>> >It would appear you demonstrate Christian values only when it's easy to do so - as soon as you let someone make you angry they go out the window. You're certainly in good company - but Jesus didn't promise your faith would be easy. Time to work on that.
>>> >
>>> >Secondly, if you define yourself by what makes you indignant - and I'm speaking in general here, not just to Tom, but he may be the poster child in this group - then you are owning a lot of unnecessary misery. Define yourself by what you show gratitude for, and it goes a long way to make you happier.
>>> Attempting to define one self to others is a wasted effort, most often
>>> done by those with type B personalities. It's better to simply be what
>>> you are. Let the cards fall where ever they fall and let others
>>> believe whatever they want to believe.
>>
>>Even Christ in anger cast the money lenders from the Temple.
>And Tim wants to define Christian values when he doesn't even know
>what they are. Do you suppose he ever set foot in the door of a
>church? I was educated by nuns.
>
>So tell us, just what are "Christian Values"?
>Do you mean like when the "Christian" conquered Jerusalem and killed
>every person in the city. It was said that blood ran ankle deep in the
>streets? Or maybe it was the Christian Papal legate and Cistercian
>abbot Arnaud Amalric ordered "Kill them all; let God sort them out",
>Or maybe the Inquisitions, which was officially established in 1229
>and ended in started in 12 began in about 1184 and finally 1908 the
>name of the Congregation became "The Sacred Congregation of the Holy
>Office", which in 1965 further changed to "Congregation for the
>Doctrine of the Faith", as retained to the present day.
>How many did the Inquisition kill? Nobody knows but certainly the
>number is in the thousands.
>
>Yes, tell us more about your "Christian Values".

I regret the addition of the additional phrase " in started in 12
began" in the above post.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 7:43:03 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>
> So tell us, just what are "Christian Values"?
> Do you mean like when the "Christian" conquered Jerusalem and killed
> every person in the city. It was said that blood ran ankle deep in the
> streets? Or maybe it was the Christian Papal legate and Cistercian
> abbot Arnaud Amalric ordered "Kill them all; let God sort them out",
> Or maybe the Inquisitions, which was officially established in 1229
> and ended in started in 12 began in about 1184 and finally 1908 the
> name of the Congregation became "The Sacred Congregation of the Holy
> Office", which in 1965 further changed to "Congregation for the
> Doctrine of the Faith", as retained to the present day.
> How many did the Inquisition kill? Nobody knows but certainly the
> number is in the thousands.
>
> Yes, tell us more about your "Christian Values".

I think it's obvious that Christian values have evolved over the centuries. They've
not always been the same.

Not that I'm trying to defend Tom, mind you.

- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 21:02:21 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 7:43:03 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>
>> So tell us, just what are "Christian Values"?
>> Do you mean like when the "Christian" conquered Jerusalem and killed
>> every person in the city. It was said that blood ran ankle deep in the
>> streets? Or maybe it was the Christian Papal legate and Cistercian
>> abbot Arnaud Amalric ordered "Kill them all; let God sort them out",
>> Or maybe the Inquisitions, which was officially established in 1229
>> and ended in started in 12 began in about 1184 and finally 1908 the
>> name of the Congregation became "The Sacred Congregation of the Holy
>> Office", which in 1965 further changed to "Congregation for the
>> Doctrine of the Faith", as retained to the present day.
>> How many did the Inquisition kill? Nobody knows but certainly the
>> number is in the thousands.
>>
>> Yes, tell us more about your "Christian Values".
>
>I think it's obvious that Christian values have evolved over the centuries. They've
>not always been the same.
>
>Not that I'm trying to defend Tom, mind you.
>
>- Frank Krygowski

Of course they have. When I was a lad it was a sin to eat meat on
Friday and if confessed you were down on your knees with 10 Hail
Mary's and a half dozen Our Fathers.

Today? Never mind, eat at Mac D's on Friday if you want to.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 12:02:23 AM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 7:43:03 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >
> > So tell us, just what are "Christian Values"?
> > Do you mean like when the "Christian" conquered Jerusalem and killed
> > every person in the city. It was said that blood ran ankle deep in the
> > streets? Or maybe it was the Christian Papal legate and Cistercian
> > abbot Arnaud Amalric ordered "Kill them all; let God sort them out",
> > Or maybe the Inquisitions, which was officially established in 1229
> > and ended in started in 12 began in about 1184 and finally 1908 the
> > name of the Congregation became "The Sacred Congregation of the Holy
> > Office", which in 1965 further changed to "Congregation for the
> > Doctrine of the Faith", as retained to the present day.
> > How many did the Inquisition kill? Nobody knows but certainly the
> > number is in the thousands.
> >
> > Yes, tell us more about your "Christian Values".
> I think it's obvious that Christian values have evolved over the centuries. They've
> not always been the same.
>
> Not that I'm trying to defend Tom, mind you.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
"Christian" values are as mutable as holidays. When the presbyterian church of the USA was created in 1789, they adopted the Westminster Confession of Faith, but they made a few changes removing some "sins" from the original Church of England list. Interesting that a sin can become nullified by the whim of man. Notably, the last edition of the WCF removed the identification of the Pope as the antichrist. Not because the pope has suddenly became smiled upon by the version of god the american presbyterians worshiped, but for political reasons (similar to why the Mormons officially changed their position on polygamy). Interesting that the antichrist suddenly disappears by the whim of man. (I'm not defending catholicism mind you, just making a point about religious doctrine, The catholics are no saints in this regard).. This of course brings us to https://youtu.be/ANNX_XiuA78

But lets not digress. The point was where tommy gets his "christian" values.. He claims it was from nuns...um...ok.

I don't need to remind the regulars, but for anyone who hasn't been paying attention, these nuns apparently imparted such "christian" values as threatening violence against people for being told to shut up, and advocating the mass murder of homosexuals. IOW - tommy's authority on religious values are as suspect as his authority on any other issue - entirely dismissible.

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:10:13 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> "Christian" values are as mutable as holidays.

But, but, but..............................

Puzzled.

Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.

And yet.....................................

(Conservative Christians in the US seem to have become completely utilitarian, believing that ends always justify means, and willing to accept any level of immorality if it benefits them. For example, if a politican is anti-abortion any level of illegal or immoral behavior is fine.)

Mark 12:30-31
New International Version
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” Those are what I consider Christian values.

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 5:57:43 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 8:18:46 AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 05:37:56 -0800 (PST), Tim R
> > <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 11:24:58 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 5:14:24 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> > It says more about you than him. But it also sends a message that US Christians are impossible to shame no matter what their behavior.
> > >> Tim, do I not have a Christmas spirit being angry at what the Democrats have done and are doing to the middle class who will very soon be the poor? My anger is for THEM and not for me.
> > >
> > >It would appear you demonstrate Christian values only when it's easy to do so - as soon as you let someone make you angry they go out the window. You're certainly in good company - but Jesus didn't promise your faith would be easy. Time to work on that.
> > >
> > >Secondly, if you define yourself by what makes you indignant - and I'm speaking in general here, not just to Tom, but he may be the poster child in this group - then you are owning a lot of unnecessary misery. Define yourself by what you show gratitude for, and it goes a long way to make you happier.
> > Attempting to define one self to others is a wasted effort, most often
> > done by those with type B personalities. It's better to simply be what
> > you are. Let the cards fall where ever they fall and let others
> > believe whatever they want to believe.
> Even Christ in anger cast the money lenders from the Temple. And Tim wants to define Christian values when he doesn't even know what they are. Do you suppose he ever set foot in the door of a church? I was educated by nuns.

I was raised Catholic but man if I come across the priest that 'educated'/indoctrinated us in elementary school I will knock him down. What a bastard was that.

Lou

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 9:07:05 AM UTC-5, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:10:13 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > "Christian" values are as mutable as holidays.
> But, but, but..............................
>
> Puzzled.
>
> Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.

Most American christians don't feel that way, but there is an extremely loud and offensive minority that could give non-americans that impression. Besides that, it's not just _American_ christians, but aside from a few notable exceptions the aforementioned offensive minority are by and large the worst offenders.

Some of the kindest most humanitarian people I've ever met were atheists, then we have have the tommys of the world.

>
> And yet.....................................
>
> (Conservative Christians in the US seem to have become completely utilitarian, believing that ends always justify means, and willing to accept any level of immorality if it benefits them. For example, if a politican is anti-abortion any level of illegal or immoral behavior is fine.)

Why is that parenthetical? More to the point, it does brightly illuminate the evangelical communities embrace of donald trump. A womanizing charlatan considered by those creeps to be a 'godsend' as if he ever had any clue what the message of christ means.

>
> Mark 12:30-31
> New International Version
> 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” Those are what I consider Christian values.

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:07:05 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:10:13 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > "Christian" values are as mutable as holidays.
> But, but, but..............................
>
> Puzzled.
>
> Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.
>
> And yet.....................................
>
> (Conservative Christians in the US seem to have become completely utilitarian, believing that ends always justify means, and willing to accept any level of immorality if it benefits them. For example, if a politican is anti-abortion any level of illegal or immoral behavior is fine.)
>
> Mark 12:30-31
> New International Version
> 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” Those are what I consider Christian values.

Tim, where do you get the idea that anyone said non-believers couldn't be moral? The4y can but their morality comes from their own opinions which can change over time. Christian morals come from the Bible and that not only doesn't change but the translation of the Bible by Guttenberg dramatically changed society leading to education and the industrial revolution.

Just 15 years ago non-religious people did not even THINK that abortion was moral save in extremis. Now if you DON'T believe in abortion AFTER birth you are an evil religious bigot.

On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 10:40:00 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:07:05 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:10:13 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > "Christian" values are as mutable as holidays.
>> But, but, but..............................
>>
>> Puzzled.
>>
>> Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.
>>
>> And yet.....................................
>>
>> (Conservative Christians in the US seem to have become completely utilitarian, believing that ends always justify means, and willing to accept any level of immorality if it benefits them. For example, if a politican is anti-abortion any level of illegal or immoral behavior is fine.)
>>
>> Mark 12:30-31
>> New International Version
>> 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” Those are what I consider Christian values.
>

Well, taking your definition of the second commandment then you are
obviously not a Christian as you have insulted, lied about and
insulted everyone posting on this site except got your Bum Boy the
Afro-Irishman.

>Tim, where do you get the idea that anyone said non-believers couldn't be moral? The4y can but their morality comes from their own opinions which can change over time. Christian morals come from the Bible and that not only doesn't change but the translation of the Bible by Guttenberg dramatically changed society leading to education and the industrial revolution.
>

Now then Dummy, Guttenberg didn't translate the bible, he printed "the
Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible". the first English language of
the bible seems to be by William Tyndale in the 1500's.

>Just 15 years ago non-religious people did not even THINK that abortion was moral save in extremis. Now if you DON'T believe in abortion AFTER birth you are an evil religious bigot.

What is an "abortion after birth"? Is this some new fad that has
become popular in the U.S.?
--
Cheers,

John B.

"I have no need of that hypothesis" - French mathematician Pierre-Simon Laplace to Napoleon in 1814.

On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 20:43:32 -0800 (PST), William Crowell
<retroguybilly@gmail.com> wrote:

>"I have no need of that hypothesis" - French mathematician Pierre-Simon Laplace to Napoleon in 1814.
And Napoleon replied "Ah, it is a fine hypothesis; it explains many
things."
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 11:30:15 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.
> Most American christians don't feel that way, but there is an extremely loud and offensive minority that could give non-americans that impression. Besides that, it's not just _American_ christians, but aside from a few notable exceptions the aforementioned offensive minority are by and large the worst offenders.
>

Apologies. I am using an ideosyncratic definition of "American Christian," which is the reason for the quotes, but I didn't explain it.

American Christianity is a term that has been used to refer to a rather strange brand that mingles religion, conservative politics, and capitalism. It is distinguished from Traditional Christianity (mainstream denominations like Lutherans, Methodists, etc.) and Liberal Christianity (some Episcopals, UUs, liberal leaning portions of the other mainstreams). Catholics until recently would have been distinct from American Christianity since they retained traditional values while focusing on abortion, but in the last couple of elections they could not resist temptation and became utilitarian and political.

American Christians by and large now believe the 2cnd amendment, benefit to shareholders, and protection of religious rights are all Biblical.

For proof just check out Patheos.

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 2:11:12 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/26/2022 2:05 AM, John B. wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Dec 2022 21:49:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 3:07:31 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> I am told that POS Liebermann has been exercising his usual racist bullshit. He doesn't seem to know that the average working wage in Mexico is $10/hr or 200 Pesos/Hr.
> >>>
> >>> Gee, I only have to talk to my neighbors to know that. Why is it that he doesn't.
> >>>
> >>> He also believes that Mexicans can only work picking fruit and vegetables. I guess he knows this by going out into the central valley and actually talking to field workers to discover that it would be hard for an illegal to GET a job working in agriculture because these are practically owned by long term Mexican families, many of who commute between the US and Mexico depending on the picking seasons. Picking fruit and vegetables at the proper time isn't something that farmers know. The farmers know when these things are ABOUT ready and the field workers themselves know ripe from too ripe from not ripe enough. Also perennial crops need to be trimmed with a great deal of knowledge and authority. Old time farmers used to know all about this but modern farmers generally rely upon their field workers. If you had farmers in the family you'd know that;.
> >>>
> >>> So the illegals coming over the border these days are not Mexicans and they are not working in fields but loading trucks and unloading them. Now in California they are driving trucks inside of the state lines but not outside since most states do not issue licenses to illegals. Illegals are cooking all of the food not just in Mexican restaurants but everything else as well from Chinese to Greek restaurants. Women and children are being sold off as slaves; prostitutes and the working capital for pedophiles. Democrats like Biden who was happy to say he took showers with his daughter shows you what people like Liebermann think like.
> >>>
> >>> I said that people don't like Liebermann because of his ignorance and racism. But I guess he continues to bring people to the point of vomiting.
> >>
> >> I just got back from dinner with the family. One of the emails I rgot was from a man laughing at Liebermann who said that I wasn't giving any references and then gave a site that proved everything I said. Liebermann on a good day wets his pants and doesn't even know it. I'm not even going to turn that killfile off to see what that racist ass has to say because all you have to know is that GM moved production to Mexico because it halved their labor costs. Anyone with a clear head would know that means that labor costs are that close to US costs. What a contemptible fool.
> >
> > It is a bit more complex then just moving.
> > GM is investing 1 billion dollars in building new facilities in Mexico
> > which will probably result in the employment of some 1,500 additional
> > Mexicans to add to the current 3,500. In essence some 5 thousand jobs
> > fewer in the U.S.
> >
> > GM states that wages at the Mexican plants range from $8.97 to $33.05
> > per day while in the U.S. GM states that they pay workers as much as
> > $73,000 a year and as much as $21.91 per hour.
> > The hourly rate amounts to $175.28 per day which is some 5 times the
> > high end wages in Mexico.
> >
> > Is it any wonder that U.S. companies are moving overseas.
> >
> Of course. It's the fruition of longstanding national
> policy. Or as economists say capital goes where it is
> treated best.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
Before it was the result of "national policy", it was the result of *labour policy*, and always it was the result of *labour union policy and behaviour*. Take your pick about who is most guilty.
>
I was in England, doing research at Cambridge, when the leader of the National Union of Coalminers, Arthur Scargill, a full-frontal Communist, tried to bring down the government. Even the dead couldn't be buried, and I paid blackmarket prices for wood to keep our baby warm since the electricity kept cutting out, though fortunately our house had fireplaces. I thought seriously of jumping off a sinking ship and driving down to our house at Juan-le-pins in the South of France which was in the process of being rebuilt with some windows not yet installed but my Citroen SM wasn't reliable (eventually I owned three just to have one that was running...) and the Volvo Estate I had on order was weeks away from delivery, even after I said I'd pay a premium and take whatever colour and options they had for immediate delivery. Then Lord Kahn told me Mrs Thatcher was planning an "ill-considered defiant response" and I decided that if a woman I thought a harmless mouse when she was in Heath's Cabinet was stiffening her spine, I'd stay and watch the miracle, and after her definitely defiant speech, the ship was no longer sinking; poor Arthur Scargill had turned the lady mouse into a nutcutter. Before she finished speaking, I put a thousand pounds on her surviving at my bookmaker at around thirty to one. (For the scale of my winnings at the time, consider that I paid around Stg5000 for the best of the big Volvos with all the best trimmings, admittedly "on the diplomatic" -- I was travelling on a diplomatic passport -- so that I didn't have to pay about half that much again in punitive British special taxes on big cars.) Actually, I was one of the few who bet on her. If I'd waited until the end of her speech, I could have gotten substantially better odds, because the commentariat was whining that she had been "provocative" and "unnecessarily abrasive" and talking heads on the BBC were opining that she'd be gone by end of the week. Years later, when I saw the Dirty Harry movie in which Clint Eastwood delivers the immortal line, "Opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one." I though of those utterly wrong commentators on the BBC on the day Mrs Thatcher initiated the disintegration of union power in Great Britain.
>
Andre Jute
Gotta crawl around on the carpet hunting a crucial piece of a watch movement I dropped.
>

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 4:45:04 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 11:30:15 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.
> > Most American christians don't feel that way, but there is an extremely loud and offensive minority that could give non-americans that impression. Besides that, it's not just _American_ christians, but aside from a few notable exceptions the aforementioned offensive minority are by and large the worst offenders.
> >
> Apologies. I am using an ideosyncratic definition of "American Christian," which is the reason for the quotes, but I didn't explain it.
>
> American Christianity is a term that has been used to refer to a rather strange brand that mingles religion, conservative politics, and capitalism. It is distinguished from Traditional Christianity (mainstream denominations like Lutherans, Methodists, etc.) and Liberal Christianity (some Episcopals, UUs, liberal leaning portions of the other mainstreams). Catholics until recently would have been distinct from American Christianity since they retained traditional values while focusing on abortion, but in the last couple of elections they could not resist temptation and became utilitarian and political.
>
> American Christians by and large now believe the 2cnd amendment, benefit to shareholders, and protection of religious rights are all Biblical.
>
> For proof just check out Patheos.

For "proof" check out an internet site? Please tell me that you were joking.. If you don't have religion that is your business and you wlll have to pay the price. But don't argue that fruits and nuts can "prove" something.

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 7:42:50 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 2:11:12 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 12/26/2022 2:05 AM, John B. wrote:
> > > On Sun, 25 Dec 2022 21:49:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 3:07:31 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>> I am told that POS Liebermann has been exercising his usual racist bullshit. He doesn't seem to know that the average working wage in Mexico is $10/hr or 200 Pesos/Hr.
> > >>>
> > >>> Gee, I only have to talk to my neighbors to know that. Why is it that he doesn't.
> > >>>
> > >>> He also believes that Mexicans can only work picking fruit and vegetables. I guess he knows this by going out into the central valley and actually talking to field workers to discover that it would be hard for an illegal to GET a job working in agriculture because these are practically owned by long term Mexican families, many of who commute between the US and Mexico depending on the picking seasons. Picking fruit and vegetables at the proper time isn't something that farmers know. The farmers know when these things are ABOUT ready and the field workers themselves know ripe from too ripe from not ripe enough. Also perennial crops need to be trimmed with a great deal of knowledge and authority. Old time farmers used to know all about this but modern farmers generally rely upon their field workers. If you had farmers in the family you'd know that;.
> > >>>
> > >>> So the illegals coming over the border these days are not Mexicans and they are not working in fields but loading trucks and unloading them. Now in California they are driving trucks inside of the state lines but not outside since most states do not issue licenses to illegals. Illegals are cooking all of the food not just in Mexican restaurants but everything else as well from Chinese to Greek restaurants. Women and children are being sold off as slaves; prostitutes and the working capital for pedophiles. Democrats like Biden who was happy to say he took showers with his daughter shows you what people like Liebermann think like.
> > >>>
> > >>> I said that people don't like Liebermann because of his ignorance and racism. But I guess he continues to bring people to the point of vomiting.
> > >>
> > >> I just got back from dinner with the family. One of the emails I rgot was from a man laughing at Liebermann who said that I wasn't giving any references and then gave a site that proved everything I said. Liebermann on a good day wets his pants and doesn't even know it. I'm not even going to turn that killfile off to see what that racist ass has to say because all you have to know is that GM moved production to Mexico because it halved their labor costs. Anyone with a clear head would know that means that labor costs are that close to US costs. What a contemptible fool.
> > >
> > > It is a bit more complex then just moving.
> > > GM is investing 1 billion dollars in building new facilities in Mexico
> > > which will probably result in the employment of some 1,500 additional
> > > Mexicans to add to the current 3,500. In essence some 5 thousand jobs
> > > fewer in the U.S.
> > >
> > > GM states that wages at the Mexican plants range from $8.97 to $33.05
> > > per day while in the U.S. GM states that they pay workers as much as
> > > $73,000 a year and as much as $21.91 per hour.
> > > The hourly rate amounts to $175.28 per day which is some 5 times the
> > > high end wages in Mexico.
> > >
> > > Is it any wonder that U.S. companies are moving overseas.
> > >
> > Of course. It's the fruition of longstanding national
> > policy. Or as economists say capital goes where it is
> > treated best.
> >
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> Before it was the result of "national policy", it was the result of *labour policy*, and always it was the result of *labour union policy and behaviour*. Take your pick about who is most guilty.
> >
> I was in England, doing research at Cambridge, when the leader of the National Union of Coalminers, Arthur Scargill, a full-frontal Communist, tried to bring down the government. Even the dead couldn't be buried, and I paid blackmarket prices for wood to keep our baby warm since the electricity kept cutting out, though fortunately our house had fireplaces. I thought seriously of jumping off a sinking ship and driving down to our house at Juan-le-pins in the South of France which was in the process of being rebuilt with some windows not yet installed but my Citroen SM wasn't reliable (eventually I owned three just to have one that was running...) and the Volvo Estate I had on order was weeks away from delivery, even after I said I'd pay a premium and take whatever colour and options they had for immediate delivery. Then Lord Kahn told me Mrs Thatcher was planning an "ill-considered defiant response" and I decided that if a woman I thought a harmless mouse when she was in Heath's Cabinet was stiffening her spine, I'd stay and watch the miracle, and after her definitely defiant speech, the ship was no longer sinking; poor Arthur Scargill had turned the lady mouse into a nutcutter. Before she finished speaking, I put a thousand pounds on her surviving at my bookmaker at around thirty to one. (For the scale of my winnings at the time, consider that I paid around Stg5000 for the best of the big Volvos with all the best trimmings, admittedly "on the diplomatic" -- I was travelling on a diplomatic passport -- so that I didn't have to pay about half that much again in punitive British special taxes on big cars.) Actually, I was one of the few who bet on her. If I'd waited until the end of her speech, I could have gotten substantially better odds, because the commentariat was whining that she had been "provocative" and "unnecessarily abrasive" and talking heads on the BBC were opining that she'd be gone by end of the week. Years later, when I saw the Dirty Harry movie in which Clint Eastwood delivers the immortal line, "Opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one." I though of those utterly wrong commentators on the BBC on the day Mrs Thatcher initiated the disintegration of union power in Great Britain.
> >
> Andre Jute
> Gotta crawl around on the carpet hunting a crucial piece of a watch movement I dropped.
> >

Well, I find it absolutely astonishing that Liebermann continues to make racist comment safter another and the stupid five who told me that as a Slav that grew up in a completely desegregated neighborhood and school I was racist and never a peep out of these same asses about their own comments.

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 5:56:04 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 4:45:04 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 11:30:15 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.
> > > Most American christians don't feel that way, but there is an extremely loud and offensive minority that could give non-americans that impression. Besides that, it's not just _American_ christians, but aside from a few notable exceptions the aforementioned offensive minority are by and large the worst offenders.
> > >
> > Apologies. I am using an ideosyncratic definition of "American Christian," which is the reason for the quotes, but I didn't explain it.
> >
> > American Christianity is a term that has been used to refer to a rather strange brand that mingles religion, conservative politics, and capitalism.. It is distinguished from Traditional Christianity (mainstream denominations like Lutherans, Methodists, etc.) and Liberal Christianity (some Episcopals, UUs, liberal leaning portions of the other mainstreams). Catholics until recently would have been distinct from American Christianity since they retained traditional values while focusing on abortion, but in the last couple of elections they could not resist temptation and became utilitarian and political.
> >
> > American Christians by and large now believe the 2cnd amendment, benefit to shareholders, and protection of religious rights are all Biblical.
> >
> > For proof just check out Patheos.
> For "proof" check out an internet site? Please tell me that you were joking. If you don't have religion that is your business and you wlll have to pay the price. But don't argue that fruits and nuts can "prove" something.

Why do you have to pay a price if you are not religious? Can’t you not be just a good person?

Lou

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 11:56:04 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> But don't argue that fruits and nuts can "prove" something.

And yet here you are, every day, all day

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 9:58:30 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 5:56:04 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 4:45:04 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 11:30:15 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.
> > > > Most American christians don't feel that way, but there is an extremely loud and offensive minority that could give non-americans that impression. Besides that, it's not just _American_ christians, but aside from a few notable exceptions the aforementioned offensive minority are by and large the worst offenders.
> > > >
> > > Apologies. I am using an ideosyncratic definition of "American Christian," which is the reason for the quotes, but I didn't explain it.
> > >
> > > American Christianity is a term that has been used to refer to a rather strange brand that mingles religion, conservative politics, and capitalism. It is distinguished from Traditional Christianity (mainstream denominations like Lutherans, Methodists, etc.) and Liberal Christianity (some Episcopals, UUs, liberal leaning portions of the other mainstreams). Catholics until recently would have been distinct from American Christianity since they retained traditional values while focusing on abortion, but in the last couple of elections they could not resist temptation and became utilitarian and political.
> > >
> > > American Christians by and large now believe the 2cnd amendment, benefit to shareholders, and protection of religious rights are all Biblical.
> > >
> > > For proof just check out Patheos.
> > For "proof" check out an internet site? Please tell me that you were joking. If you don't have religion that is your business and you wlll have to pay the price. But don't argue that fruits and nuts can "prove" something.
> Why do you have to pay a price if you are not religious? Can’t you not be just a good person?
>
> Lou

I thought that I cover that. Christianity sets an absolute line of good and evil. Society does not. LGBTQ behavior is absolutely forbidden but society today actually revers it. Doctors are performing sex change operations on minors and courts are protecting these doctors from the child's parents. Babies are being born alive and then left to die by the doctors that delivered them. How do YOU judged good behavior?

On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 08:56:02 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 4:45:04 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 11:30:15 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > > Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.
>> > Most American christians don't feel that way, but there is an extremely loud and offensive minority that could give non-americans that impression. Besides that, it's not just _American_ christians, but aside from a few notable exceptions the aforementioned offensive minority are by and large the worst offenders.
>> >
>> Apologies. I am using an ideosyncratic definition of "American Christian," which is the reason for the quotes, but I didn't explain it.
>>
>> American Christianity is a term that has been used to refer to a rather strange brand that mingles religion, conservative politics, and capitalism. It is distinguished from Traditional Christianity (mainstream denominations like Lutherans, Methodists, etc.) and Liberal Christianity (some Episcopals, UUs, liberal leaning portions of the other mainstreams). Catholics until recently would have been distinct from American Christianity since they retained traditional values while focusing on abortion, but in the last couple of elections they could not resist temptation and became utilitarian and political.
>>
>> American Christians by and large now believe the 2cnd amendment, benefit to shareholders, and protection of religious rights are all Biblical.
>>
>> For proof just check out Patheos.
>
>For "proof" check out an internet site? Please tell me that you were joking. If you don't have religion that is your business and you wlll have to pay the price. But don't argue that fruits and nuts can "prove" something.

"If you don't have religion"?

What does that mean? Perhaps, like you, you profess to be a whatever
it is that you claim to be, but totally ignore the fundamental tenets.

The commandment "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy
neighbour" immediately comes to mind here.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 09:02:31 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 7:42:50 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 2:11:12 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>> > On 12/26/2022 2:05 AM, John B. wrote:
>> > > On Sun, 25 Dec 2022 21:49:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 3:07:31 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > >>> I am told that POS Liebermann has been exercising his usual racist bullshit. He doesn't seem to know that the average working wage in Mexico is $10/hr or 200 Pesos/Hr.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Gee, I only have to talk to my neighbors to know that. Why is it that he doesn't.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> He also believes that Mexicans can only work picking fruit and vegetables. I guess he knows this by going out into the central valley and actually talking to field workers to discover that it would be hard for an illegal to GET a job working in agriculture because these are practically owned by long term Mexican families, many of who commute between the US and Mexico depending on the picking seasons. Picking fruit and vegetables at the proper time isn't something that farmers know. The farmers know when these things are ABOUT ready and the field workers themselves know ripe from too ripe from not ripe enough. Also perennial crops need to be trimmed with a great deal of knowledge and authority. Old time farmers used to know all about this but modern farmers generally rely upon their field workers. If you had farmers in the family you'd know that;.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> So the illegals coming over the border these days are not Mexicans and they are not working in fields but loading trucks and unloading them. Now in California they are driving trucks inside of the state lines but not outside since most states do not issue licenses to illegals. Illegals are cooking all of the food not just in Mexican restaurants but everything else as well from Chinese to Greek restaurants. Women and children are being sold off as slaves; prostitutes and the working capital for pedophiles. Democrats like Biden who was happy to say he took showers with his daughter shows you what people like Liebermann think like.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I said that people don't like Liebermann because of his ignorance and racism. But I guess he continues to bring people to the point of vomiting.
>> > >>
>> > >> I just got back from dinner with the family. One of the emails I rgot was from a man laughing at Liebermann who said that I wasn't giving any references and then gave a site that proved everything I said. Liebermann on a good day wets his pants and doesn't even know it. I'm not even going to turn that killfile off to see what that racist ass has to say because all you have to know is that GM moved production to Mexico because it halved their labor costs. Anyone with a clear head would know that means that labor costs are that close to US costs. What a contemptible fool.
>> > >
>> > > It is a bit more complex then just moving.
>> > > GM is investing 1 billion dollars in building new facilities in Mexico
>> > > which will probably result in the employment of some 1,500 additional
>> > > Mexicans to add to the current 3,500. In essence some 5 thousand jobs
>> > > fewer in the U.S.
>> > >
>> > > GM states that wages at the Mexican plants range from $8.97 to $33.05
>> > > per day while in the U.S. GM states that they pay workers as much as
>> > > $73,000 a year and as much as $21.91 per hour.
>> > > The hourly rate amounts to $175.28 per day which is some 5 times the
>> > > high end wages in Mexico.
>> > >
>> > > Is it any wonder that U.S. companies are moving overseas.
>> > >
>> > Of course. It's the fruition of longstanding national
>> > policy. Or as economists say capital goes where it is
>> > treated best.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Andrew Muzi
>> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>> >
>> Before it was the result of "national policy", it was the result of *labour policy*, and always it was the result of *labour union policy and behaviour*. Take your pick about who is most guilty.
>> >
>> I was in England, doing research at Cambridge, when the leader of the National Union of Coalminers, Arthur Scargill, a full-frontal Communist, tried to bring down the government. Even the dead couldn't be buried, and I paid blackmarket prices for wood to keep our baby warm since the electricity kept cutting out, though fortunately our house had fireplaces. I thought seriously of jumping off a sinking ship and driving down to our house at Juan-le-pins in the South of France which was in the process of being rebuilt with some windows not yet installed but my Citroen SM wasn't reliable (eventually I owned three just to have one that was running...) and the Volvo Estate I had on order was weeks away from delivery, even after I said I'd pay a premium and take whatever colour and options they had for immediate delivery. Then Lord Kahn told me Mrs Thatcher was planning an "ill-considered defiant response" and I decided that if a woman I thought a harmless mouse when she was in Heath's
>Cabinet was stiffening her spine, I'd stay and watch the miracle, and after her definitely defiant speech, the ship was no longer sinking; poor Arthur Scargill had turned the lady mouse into a nutcutter. Before she finished speaking, I put a thousand pounds on her surviving at my bookmaker at around thirty to one. (For the scale of my winnings at the time, consider that I paid around Stg5000 for the best of the big Volvos with all the best trimmings, admittedly "on the diplomatic" -- I was travelling on a diplomatic passport -- so that I didn't have to pay about half that much again in punitive British special taxes on big cars.) Actually, I was one of the few who bet on her. If I'd waited until the end of her speech, I could have gotten substantially better odds, because the commentariat was whining that she had been "provocative" and "unnecessarily abrasive" and talking heads on the BBC were opining that she'd be gone by end of the week. Years later, when I saw the Dirty Harry
>movie in which Clint Eastwood delivers the immortal line, "Opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one." I though of those utterly wrong commentators on the BBC on the day Mrs Thatcher initiated the disintegration of union power in Great Britain.
>> >
>> Andre Jute
>> Gotta crawl around on the carpet hunting a crucial piece of a watch movement I dropped.
>> >
>
>Well, I find it absolutely astonishing that Liebermann continues to make racist comment safter another and the stupid five who told me that as a Slav that grew up in a completely desegregated neighborhood and school I was racist and never a peep out of these same asses about their own comments.

"that Liebermann continues to make racist comment safter another"??

A reference here would be greatly appreciated.

Or is this yet another example of your fevered imagination?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 14:21:09 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 9:58:30 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 5:56:04 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 4:45:04 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 11:30:15 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > > > > Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.
>> > > > Most American christians don't feel that way, but there is an extremely loud and offensive minority that could give non-americans that impression. Besides that, it's not just _American_ christians, but aside from a few notable exceptions the aforementioned offensive minority are by and large the worst offenders.
>> > > >
>> > > Apologies. I am using an ideosyncratic definition of "American Christian," which is the reason for the quotes, but I didn't explain it.
>> > >
>> > > American Christianity is a term that has been used to refer to a rather strange brand that mingles religion, conservative politics, and capitalism. It is distinguished from Traditional Christianity (mainstream denominations like Lutherans, Methodists, etc.) and Liberal Christianity (some Episcopals, UUs, liberal leaning portions of the other mainstreams). Catholics until recently would have been distinct from American Christianity since they retained traditional values while focusing on abortion, but in the last couple of elections they could not resist temptation and became utilitarian and political.
>> > >
>> > > American Christians by and large now believe the 2cnd amendment, benefit to shareholders, and protection of religious rights are all Biblical.
>> > >
>> > > For proof just check out Patheos.
>> > For "proof" check out an internet site? Please tell me that you were joking. If you don't have religion that is your business and you wlll have to pay the price. But don't argue that fruits and nuts can "prove" something.
>> Why do you have to pay a price if you are not religious? Can’t you not be just a good person?
>>
>> Lou
>
>I thought that I cover that. Christianity sets an absolute line of good and evil. Society does not. LGBTQ behavior is absolutely forbidden but society today actually revers it. Doctors are performing sex change operations on minors and courts are protecting these doctors from the child's parents. Babies are being born alive and then left to die by the doctors that delivered them. How do YOU judged good behavior?

"Christianity sets an absolute line of good and evil"???

You mean like the Crusaders capturing Jerusalem in 1099 and massacring
every man, woman and child in the city until the streets ran ankle
deep with the blood?

Or perhaps the Inquisition? Estimates of the number killed by the
Spanish Inquisition, which Sixtus IV authorised in a papal bull in
1478, have ranged from 30,000 to 300,000. Some historians are
convinced that millions died..

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 11:56:04 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > American Christians by and large now believe the 2cnd amendment, benefit to shareholders, and protection of religious rights are all Biblical.
> >
> > For proof just check out Patheos.
> For "proof" check out an internet site? Please tell me that you were joking.

Alas, not joking.

Patheos is a religious site with a huge conservative Christian presence, along with some diversity. I use it as an example of a place you can find lots of discussion between Christians which supports my arguments. There are probably many similar ones out there. Of course, if you live in a small bubble, you will feel Christian beliefs are limited to what you've heard from the people you know, maybe the ones in your congregation - if you belong to one. (frankly I doubt that - but then you elected a president who had not been inside a church since age 7 but proudly proclaimed his faith and earned your vote, so who knows? )

Love your neighbor, provided they are of the same skin color and politics as you. Christianity then becomes easy.

On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 06:30:58 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
>"that Liebermann continues to make racist comments after another"??
>A reference here would be greatly appreciated.
>Or is this yet another example of your fevered imagination?

Thanks, but I think it might be better to leave things alone. By now,
anyone reading RBT has recognized that most everything that Tom writes
is a lie, a mistake or is totally wrong. If they want the truth, it
is easy enough to simply believe that the opposite of what Tom writes
is the truth. That's much easier than confronting Tom with
contradictory evidence and requests for substantiation which usually
have no effect.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 19:37:29 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 06:30:58 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>"that Liebermann continues to make racist comments after another"??
>>A reference here would be greatly appreciated.
>>Or is this yet another example of your fevered imagination?
>
>Thanks, but I think it might be better to leave things alone. By now,
>anyone reading RBT has recognized that most everything that Tom writes
>is a lie, a mistake or is totally wrong. If they want the truth, it
>is easy enough to simply believe that the opposite of what Tom writes
>is the truth. That's much easier than confronting Tom with
>contradictory evidence and requests for substantiation which usually
>have no effect.

"almost everything"??

You are being too kind Sir!
--
Cheers,

John B.