On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 10:40:00 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Tim, where do you get the idea that anyone said non-believers couldn't be moral? The4y can but their morality comes from their own opinions which can change over time. Christian morals come from the Bible and that not only doesn't change but the translation of the Bible by Guttenberg dramatically changed society leading to education and the industrial revolution.

Is the person who wrote the following a moral Christian?

09/14/2022
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/KvIpVSj1RiQ/m/564R3TRrAQAJ
"Assassination is an entirely different matter. Public officials must
be out in the public so killing them is fairly easy. Not one of those
armored limos could sustain an antitank weapon. And with Biden pouring
thousands of them into the Ukraine one of them could easily go
missing. Wouldn't be justice if someone put an antitank rocket into
Biden's car?"

09/17/2022
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/KvIpVSj1RiQ/m/kkdSlEftBQAJ
"I would love to meet Seaton. It would require about 20 seconds to
break the jaw and leave him crying like the baby he is. Threats aren't
particularly manly but when you have creatures like the stupid six it
is difficult not to inform them of what the real world will do to them
sooner or later."

If you lived in Israel at the time of Jesus, here's a list of 613
commandments by which you should run your life. Kindly remember that
Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi:
<https://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Taryag/taryag.html>
<https://www.jewfaq.org/613_commandments>
Note that the various books of the Christian bible were assembled
starting in about AD 50 and the various interpretations were not
judged until AD 325 at the First Council of Nicaea:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea>
People in Jesus's time would not know how to "be moral" in accordance
to the later Christian bible and would more likely follow the 613
commandments and Torah. There were also an assortment of different
bibles, written by authors with divergent points of view, making it
more difficult to "be moral".

Your religion is a guide for how you are expected to act, not a shield
to protect you from the results of your actions.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 20:55:01 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 10:40:00 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Tim, where do you get the idea that anyone said
non-believers couldn't be moral? The4y can but their morality comes
from their own opinions which can change over time. Christian morals
come from the Bible and that not only doesn't change but the
translation of the Bible by Guttenberg dramatically changed society
leading to education and the industrial revolution.
>
>Is the person who wrote the following a moral Christian?
>
>09/14/2022
>https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/KvIpVSj1RiQ/m/564R3TRrAQAJ
>"Assassination is an entirely different matter. Public officials must
>be out in the public so killing them is fairly easy. Not one of those
>armored limos could sustain an antitank weapon. And with Biden pouring
>thousands of them into the Ukraine one of them could easily go
>missing. Wouldn't be justice if someone put an antitank rocket into
>Biden's car?"
>
>09/17/2022
>https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/KvIpVSj1RiQ/m/kkdSlEftBQAJ
>"I would love to meet Seaton. It would require about 20 seconds to
>break the jaw and leave him crying like the baby he is. Threats aren't
>particularly manly but when you have creatures like the stupid six it
>is difficult not to inform them of what the real world will do to them
>sooner or later."
>
>If you lived in Israel at the time of Jesus, here's a list of 613
>commandments by which you should run your life. Kindly remember that
>Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi:
><https://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Taryag/taryag.html>
><https://www.jewfaq.org/613_commandments>
>Note that the various books of the Christian bible were assembled
>starting in about AD 50 and the various interpretations were not
>judged until AD 325 at the First Council of Nicaea:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea>
>People in Jesus's time would not know how to "be moral" in accordance
>to the later Christian bible and would more likely follow the 613
>commandments and Torah. There were also an assortment of different
>bibles, written by authors with divergent points of view, making it
>more difficult to "be moral".
>
>Your religion is a guide for how you are expected to act, not a shield
>to protect you from the results of your actions.

Does someone who insists that "the translation of the Bible by
Guttenberg" actually know anything about his religion? And since
Guttenberg didn't translate the bible can he be responsible for
"changing society leading to education and the industrial revolution".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutenberg_Bible
"The Gutenberg Bible, an edition of the Vulgate, contains the Latin
version of the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament. It is
mainly the work of St Jerome who began his work on the translation in
380 AD, with emendations from the Parisian Bible tradition, and
further divergences"
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 13:32:28 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 20:55:01 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 10:40:00 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Tim, where do you get the idea that anyone said
>non-believers couldn't be moral? The4y can but their morality comes
>from their own opinions which can change over time. Christian morals
>come from the Bible and that not only doesn't change but the
>translation of the Bible by Guttenberg dramatically changed society
>leading to education and the industrial revolution.
>>
>>Is the person who wrote the following a moral Christian?
>>
>>09/14/2022
>>https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/KvIpVSj1RiQ/m/564R3TRrAQAJ
>>"Assassination is an entirely different matter. Public officials must
>>be out in the public so killing them is fairly easy. Not one of those
>>armored limos could sustain an antitank weapon. And with Biden pouring
>>thousands of them into the Ukraine one of them could easily go
>>missing. Wouldn't be justice if someone put an antitank rocket into
>>Biden's car?"
>>
>>09/17/2022
>>https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/KvIpVSj1RiQ/m/kkdSlEftBQAJ
>>"I would love to meet Seaton. It would require about 20 seconds to
>>break the jaw and leave him crying like the baby he is. Threats aren't
>>particularly manly but when you have creatures like the stupid six it
>>is difficult not to inform them of what the real world will do to them
>>sooner or later."
>>
>>If you lived in Israel at the time of Jesus, here's a list of 613
>>commandments by which you should run your life. Kindly remember that
>>Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi:
>><https://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Taryag/taryag.html>
>><https://www.jewfaq.org/613_commandments>
>>Note that the various books of the Christian bible were assembled
>>starting in about AD 50 and the various interpretations were not
>>judged until AD 325 at the First Council of Nicaea:
>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea>
>>People in Jesus's time would not know how to "be moral" in accordance
>>to the later Christian bible and would more likely follow the 613
>>commandments and Torah. There were also an assortment of different
>>bibles, written by authors with divergent points of view, making it
>>more difficult to "be moral".
>>
>>Your religion is a guide for how you are expected to act, not a shield
>>to protect you from the results of your actions.
>
>Does someone who insists that "the translation of the Bible by
>Guttenberg" actually know anything about his religion? And since
>Guttenberg didn't translate the bible can he be responsible for
>"changing society leading to education and the industrial revolution".
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutenberg_Bible
>"The Gutenberg Bible, an edition of the Vulgate, contains the Latin
>version of the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament. It is
>mainly the work of St Jerome who began his work on the translation in
>380 AD, with emendations from the Parisian Bible tradition, and
>further divergences"
>

Thankfully, most modern Christian ideologies have evolved past
Christianity's bloody past. IMO, calling one's self a Christian does
not mean that one approves and celebrates the abhorrent things done in
the name of Christianity as does calling one self a Democrat mean that
one approves of that party's shameful racist history.

From my perspective, most religions, and the cultures around them,
have been used as tools to achieve mankind's ultimate evil, which is
to subjugate and control.

When asked, I identify myself as a Christian, not because I obey
Christianity's teachings, but because I find most of those teachings
comply with my own moral values and because my agnosticism doesn't
require acceptance.

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 6:17:41 PM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 11:56:04 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > American Christians by and large now believe the 2cnd amendment, benefit to shareholders, and protection of religious rights are all Biblical.
> > >
> > > For proof just check out Patheos.
> > For "proof" check out an internet site? Please tell me that you were joking.
> Alas, not joking.
>
> Patheos is a religious site with a huge conservative Christian presence, along with some diversity. I use it as an example of a place you can find lots of discussion between Christians which supports my arguments. There are probably many similar ones out there. Of course, if you live in a small bubble, you will feel Christian beliefs are limited to what you've heard from the people you know, maybe the ones in your congregation - if you belong to one. (frankly I doubt that - but then you elected a president who had not been inside a church since age 7 but proudly proclaimed his faith and earned your vote, so who knows? )
>
> Love your neighbor, provided they are of the same skin color and politics as you. Christianity then becomes easy.

Do you mean like assuming that all Hispanics work in the fields? Now indeed, Santa Cruz is largely white in the middle class areas, but making racist assumptions are still racist assumptions

On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 5:30:40 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
> Thankfully, most modern Christian ideologies have evolved past
> Christianity's bloody past. IMO, calling one's self a Christian does
> not mean that one approves and celebrates the abhorrent things done in
> the name of Christianity as does calling one self a Democrat mean that
> one approves of that party's shameful racist history.

I agree. What is acceptable to Christians has matured over the centuries, for the most part, following the changing ethics of the civilization and culture.

I do think there was a huge step backwards when US politicians realized they could benefit from an alliance with conservative religion. This has had a devastating effect on the integrity of Christians. You simply can't mix the two without causing great harm.

On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 9:00:02 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 5:30:40 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > Thankfully, most modern Christian ideologies have evolved past
> > Christianity's bloody past. IMO, calling one's self a Christian does
> > not mean that one approves and celebrates the abhorrent things done in
> > the name of Christianity as does calling one self a Democrat mean that
> > one approves of that party's shameful racist history.
> I agree. What is acceptable to Christians has matured over the centuries, for the most part, following the changing ethics of the civilization and culture.
>
> I do think there was a huge step backwards when US politicians realized they could benefit from an alliance with conservative religion. This has had a devastating effect on the integrity of Christians. You simply can't mix the two without causing great harm.

Tim, Christianity hasn't changed. That people living in a vicious world were forced to do is something else. Tell me, at ANY time so you believe that Christian Germans believed in the rantings of Hitler? Or perhaps like Krygowski you believe that Christianity is an expression of communism and the murder of millions nothing more than an unfortunate incident?

Unless you are a Christian exactly how are you judging what a Christian is?

On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 09:23:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 9:00:02 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 5:30:40 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> > Thankfully, most modern Christian ideologies have evolved past
>> > Christianity's bloody past. IMO, calling one's self a Christian does
>> > not mean that one approves and celebrates the abhorrent things done in
>> > the name of Christianity as does calling one self a Democrat mean that
>> > one approves of that party's shameful racist history.
>> I agree. What is acceptable to Christians has matured over the centuries, for the most part, following the changing ethics of the civilization and culture.
>>
>> I do think there was a huge step backwards when US politicians realized they could benefit from an alliance with conservative religion. This has had a devastating effect on the integrity of Christians. You simply can't mix the two without causing great harm.
>
>Tim, Christianity hasn't changed. That people living in a vicious world were forced to do is something else. Tell me, at ANY time so you believe that Christian Germans believed in the rantings of Hitler? Or perhaps like Krygowski you believe that Christianity is an expression of communism and the murder of millions nothing more than an unfortunate incident?
>
>Unless you are a Christian exactly how are you judging what a Christian is?

"of communism and the murder of millions"???

Err TOMMY! The U.S. has been at war, or military intervention for 225
out of 243 years since 1776. Some 92% of it's history. (as of January
09, 2020).
How many people do you think that they have killed?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 12:23:51 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 9:00:02 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 5:30:40 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > > Thankfully, most modern Christian ideologies have evolved past
> > > Christianity's bloody past. IMO, calling one's self a Christian does
> > > not mean that one approves and celebrates the abhorrent things done in
> > > the name of Christianity as does calling one self a Democrat mean that
> > > one approves of that party's shameful racist history.
> > I agree. What is acceptable to Christians has matured over the centuries, for the most part, following the changing ethics of the civilization and culture.
> >
> > I do think there was a huge step backwards when US politicians realized they could benefit from an alliance with conservative religion. This has had a devastating effect on the integrity of Christians. You simply can't mix the two without causing great harm.
> Tim, Christianity hasn't changed.

Er, which of the 10,000+ variations of Christianity have not changed to adapt to a change in culture?

Which of the 10,000+ variations of Christianity did not change their beliefs and practices when they aligned with conservative politics?

On Sun, 1 Jan 2023 06:17:05 -0800 (PST), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 12:23:51 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 9:00:02 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 5:30:40 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> > > Thankfully, most modern Christian ideologies have evolved past
>> > > Christianity's bloody past. IMO, calling one's self a Christian does
>> > > not mean that one approves and celebrates the abhorrent things done in
>> > > the name of Christianity as does calling one self a Democrat mean that
>> > > one approves of that party's shameful racist history.
>> > I agree. What is acceptable to Christians has matured over the centuries, for the most part, following the changing ethics of the civilization and culture.
>> >
>> > I do think there was a huge step backwards when US politicians realized they could benefit from an alliance with conservative religion. This has had a devastating effect on the integrity of Christians. You simply can't mix the two without causing great harm.
>> Tim, Christianity hasn't changed.
>
>Er, which of the 10,000+ variations of Christianity have not changed to adapt to a change in culture?
>
>Which of the 10,000+ variations of Christianity did not change their beliefs and practices when they aligned with conservative politics?

I don't know how you define "conservative politics," but I believe
that here in the USA many, who call themselves Christians do not refer
to themselves as political conservatives, and would prefer not to be
labeled as such.

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 11:26:07 PM UTC, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 08:56:02 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 4:45:04 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 11:30:15 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail..com wrote:
> >> > > Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.
> >> > Most American christians don't feel that way, but there is an extremely loud and offensive minority that could give non-americans that impression. Besides that, it's not just _American_ christians, but aside from a few notable exceptions the aforementioned offensive minority are by and large the worst offenders.
> >> >
> >> Apologies. I am using an ideosyncratic definition of "American Christian," which is the reason for the quotes, but I didn't explain it.
> >>
> >> American Christianity is a term that has been used to refer to a rather strange brand that mingles religion, conservative politics, and capitalism. It is distinguished from Traditional Christianity (mainstream denominations like Lutherans, Methodists, etc.) and Liberal Christianity (some Episcopals, UUs, liberal leaning portions of the other mainstreams). Catholics until recently would have been distinct from American Christianity since they retained traditional values while focusing on abortion, but in the last couple of elections they could not resist temptation and became utilitarian and political.
> >>
> >> American Christians by and large now believe the 2cnd amendment, benefit to shareholders, and protection of religious rights are all Biblical.
> >>
> >> For proof just check out Patheos.
> >
> >For "proof" check out an internet site? Please tell me that you were joking. If you don't have religion that is your business and you wlll have to pay the price. But don't argue that fruits and nuts can "prove" something.
> "If you don't have religion"?
>
> What does that mean? Perhaps, like you, you profess to be a whatever
> it is that you claim to be, but totally ignore the fundamental tenets.
>
> The commandment "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy
> neighbour" immediately comes to mind here.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.
>
Wow! I nearly did myself a damage there laughing so hard. Can you count, Slow Johnny? There are nine fingers pointing at you when you point at Tom.
>

On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 6:17:07 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 12:23:51 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 9:00:02 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 5:30:40 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > > > Thankfully, most modern Christian ideologies have evolved past
> > > > Christianity's bloody past. IMO, calling one's self a Christian does
> > > > not mean that one approves and celebrates the abhorrent things done in
> > > > the name of Christianity as does calling one self a Democrat mean that
> > > > one approves of that party's shameful racist history.
> > > I agree. What is acceptable to Christians has matured over the centuries, for the most part, following the changing ethics of the civilization and culture.
> > >
> > > I do think there was a huge step backwards when US politicians realized they could benefit from an alliance with conservative religion. This has had a devastating effect on the integrity of Christians. You simply can't mix the two without causing great harm.
> > Tim, Christianity hasn't changed.
> Er, which of the 10,000+ variations of Christianity have not changed to adapt to a change in culture?
>
> Which of the 10,000+ variations of Christianity did not change their beliefs and practices when they aligned with conservative politics?

Decrying some nut job using the Bible to "prove" the Earth is flat is not Christianity. Pretending that somehow there are various shades of Christianity misses the mark entirely. You can read the bible yourself and understand the gist of it. You don't need a priest or a pope or a preacher to explain it to you.

On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 8:52:32 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 11:26:07 PM UTC, John B. wrote:
> > On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 08:56:02 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 4:45:04 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 11:30:15 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >> > > Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.
> > >> > Most American christians don't feel that way, but there is an extremely loud and offensive minority that could give non-americans that impression. Besides that, it's not just _American_ christians, but aside from a few notable exceptions the aforementioned offensive minority are by and large the worst offenders.
> > >> >
> > >> Apologies. I am using an ideosyncratic definition of "American Christian," which is the reason for the quotes, but I didn't explain it.
> > >>
> > >> American Christianity is a term that has been used to refer to a rather strange brand that mingles religion, conservative politics, and capitalism. It is distinguished from Traditional Christianity (mainstream denominations like Lutherans, Methodists, etc.) and Liberal Christianity (some Episcopals, UUs, liberal leaning portions of the other mainstreams). Catholics until recently would have been distinct from American Christianity since they retained traditional values while focusing on abortion, but in the last couple of elections they could not resist temptation and became utilitarian and political.
> > >>
> > >> American Christians by and large now believe the 2cnd amendment, benefit to shareholders, and protection of religious rights are all Biblical.
> > >>
> > >> For proof just check out Patheos.
> > >
> > >For "proof" check out an internet site? Please tell me that you were joking. If you don't have religion that is your business and you wlll have to pay the price. But don't argue that fruits and nuts can "prove" something..
> > "If you don't have religion"?
> >
> > What does that mean? Perhaps, like you, you profess to be a whatever
> > it is that you claim to be, but totally ignore the fundamental tenets.
> >
> > The commandment "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy
> > neighbour" immediately comes to mind here.
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John B.
> >
> Wow! I nearly did myself a damage there laughing so hard. Can you count, Slow Johnny? There are nine fingers pointing at you when you point at Tom.
> >

John does that continually. He doesn't seem to know that you only need to read the Bible yourself just for what it is and not for what you want to "prove" with it. But in the end he will know it in the most personal sort of way.

On 1/1/2023 12:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> You can read the bible yourself and understand the gist of it. You don't need a priest or a pope or a preacher to explain it to you.

That's very simplistic thinking.

Tom, you have a habit of imagining you know at least as much as people
who have devoted their lives and educations to any given subject.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 1 Jan 2023 09:00:33 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 6:17:07 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 12:23:51 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 9:00:02 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 5:30:40 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> > > > Thankfully, most modern Christian ideologies have evolved past
>> > > > Christianity's bloody past. IMO, calling one's self a Christian does
>> > > > not mean that one approves and celebrates the abhorrent things done in
>> > > > the name of Christianity as does calling one self a Democrat mean that
>> > > > one approves of that party's shameful racist history.
>> > > I agree. What is acceptable to Christians has matured over the centuries, for the most part, following the changing ethics of the civilization and culture.
>> > >
>> > > I do think there was a huge step backwards when US politicians realized they could benefit from an alliance with conservative religion. This has had a devastating effect on the integrity of Christians. You simply can't mix the two without causing great harm.
>> > Tim, Christianity hasn't changed.
>> Er, which of the 10,000+ variations of Christianity have not changed to adapt to a change in culture?
>>
>> Which of the 10,000+ variations of Christianity did not change their beliefs and practices when they aligned with conservative politics?
>
>Decrying some nut job using the Bible to "prove" the Earth is flat is not Christianity. Pretending that somehow there are various shades of Christianity misses the mark entirely. You can read the bible yourself and understand the gist of it. You don't need a priest or a pope or a preacher to explain it to you.

But which bible? There are something like 60 versions in the English
language alone.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 1 Jan 2023 09:04:20 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 8:52:32 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 11:26:07 PM UTC, John B. wrote:
>> > On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 08:56:02 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 4:45:04 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >> On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 11:30:15 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > >> > > Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.
>> > >> > Most American christians don't feel that way, but there is an extremely loud and offensive minority that could give non-americans that impression. Besides that, it's not just _American_ christians, but aside from a few notable exceptions the aforementioned offensive minority are by and large the worst offenders.
>> > >> >
>> > >> Apologies. I am using an ideosyncratic definition of "American Christian," which is the reason for the quotes, but I didn't explain it.
>> > >>
>> > >> American Christianity is a term that has been used to refer to a rather strange brand that mingles religion, conservative politics, and capitalism. It is distinguished from Traditional Christianity (mainstream denominations like Lutherans, Methodists, etc.) and Liberal Christianity (some Episcopals, UUs, liberal leaning portions of the other mainstreams). Catholics until recently would have been distinct from American Christianity since they retained traditional values while focusing on abortion, but in the last couple of elections they could not resist temptation and became utilitarian and political.
>> > >>
>> > >> American Christians by and large now believe the 2cnd amendment, benefit to shareholders, and protection of religious rights are all Biblical.
>> > >>
>> > >> For proof just check out Patheos.
>> > >
>> > >For "proof" check out an internet site? Please tell me that you were joking. If you don't have religion that is your business and you wlll have to pay the price. But don't argue that fruits and nuts can "prove" something.
>> > "If you don't have religion"?
>> >
>> > What does that mean? Perhaps, like you, you profess to be a whatever
>> > it is that you claim to be, but totally ignore the fundamental tenets.
>> >
>> > The commandment "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy
>> > neighbour" immediately comes to mind here.
>> > --
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > John B.
>> >
>> Wow! I nearly did myself a damage there laughing so hard. Can you count, Slow Johnny? There are nine fingers pointing at you when you point at Tom.
>> >
>
>John does that continually. He doesn't seem to know that you only need to read the Bible yourself just for what it is and not for what you want to "prove" with it. But in the end he will know it in the most personal sort of way.

But which bible (I asked you that before) as there are something like
60 versions of the Christian Bible in the English language alone, and
even something so simple as the "Ten Commandments" vary from version
to version.
https://www.the-ten-commandments.org/ten-commandments-bible-translations.html
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 12:04:22 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> John does that continually. He doesn't seem to know that you only need to read the Bible yourself just for what it is and not for what you want to "prove" with it. But in the end he will know it in the most personal sort of way.

I will finish your statement in the way you intended, but more explicitly.

"he will know it in the most personal way because he is going to be tortured in hell for all eternity and that fills me with glee, " said Tom, or would have if he'd finished his sentence.

You are entitled to your position but it makes me cringe, and does not make your version of religion seem inviting.

On Mon, 02 Jan 2023 06:36:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>But which bible? There are something like 60 versions in the English
>language alone.

I didn't count them but it looks like more than 60:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 01 Jan 2023 19:46:29 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 02 Jan 2023 06:36:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>But which bible? There are something like 60 versions in the English
>>language alone.
>
>I didn't count them but it looks like more than 60:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations>

O.K.... I didn't count them either so lets say, "A whole bunch!"

Out of curiosity is the entire Torah the same in all versions? Or are
there different versions or interpretations of?

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 12:20:23 AM UTC, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 12:04:22 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > John does that continually. He doesn't seem to know that you only need to read the Bible yourself just for what it is and not for what you want to "prove" with it. But in the end he will know it in the most personal sort of way.
> I will finish your statement in the way you intended, but more explicitly..
>
> "he will know it in the most personal way because he is going to be tortured in hell for all eternity and that fills me with glee, " said Tom, or would have if he'd finished his sentence.
>
> You are entitled to your position but it makes me cringe, and does not make your version of religion seem inviting.
>
But, Timothy, now by deceitfully planting words he didn't speak in Tom's mouth, you're condemning poor Slow Johnny to the eternal flames in hell. What authority have you for that unfair disposition of even an obnoxious shortass? Tom didn't do it -- because he knows better -- you did it all on your own. Have you considered, or are you merely ignorant of the third option: if Slow Johnny is a Catholic, he could serve a millennium or two in Purgatory, and thus purge (eternal bulimia?) his manifest and multitudinous vicious sins? On this evidence you are not only guilty of what you accuse Tom of, but far more guilty. Shame on you!
>
Andre Jute
The Lord made me so handsome to zap all you atrocious sinners something terrible.
>

On 1/1/2023 10:51 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Jan 2023 19:46:29 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 02 Jan 2023 06:36:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> But which bible? There are something like 60 versions in the English
>>> language alone.
>>
>> I didn't count them but it looks like more than 60:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations>
>
> O.K.... I didn't count them either so lets say, "A whole bunch!"
>
> Out of curiosity is the entire Torah the same in all versions? Or are
> there different versions or interpretations of?
>

More consistent than most at least.

Rigorously transcribed by hand such that a one-letter copy
error causes the entire piece to be destroyed and a new one
started which is why a Torah is so incredibly valuable. Few
human exploits are done under as rigorous a regime:

https://aish.com/48969731/

Jack Welch made his name with 'six-sigma' QC. Torah is at
another level!

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 4:20:23 PM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 12:04:22 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > John does that continually. He doesn't seem to know that you only need to read the Bible yourself just for what it is and not for what you want to "prove" with it. But in the end he will know it in the most personal sort of way.
> I will finish your statement in the way you intended, but more explicitly..
>
> "he will know it in the most personal way because he is going to be tortured in hell for all eternity and that fills me with glee, " said Tom, or would have if he'd finished his sentence.
>
> You are entitled to your position but it makes me cringe, and does not make your version of religion seem inviting.

Tim, what you chose to believe is your choice In John 14, Jesus said to His disciples, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” And that means that you ignore that at your own peril. Inventing words to put in my mouth when you have never read the Bible does you no justice.

On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 5:40:54 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/1/2023 10:51 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Sun, 01 Jan 2023 19:46:29 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 02 Jan 2023 06:36:43 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> But which bible? There are something like 60 versions in the English
> >>> language alone.
> >>
> >> I didn't count them but it looks like more than 60:
> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations>
> >
> > O.K.... I didn't count them either so lets say, "A whole bunch!"
> >
> > Out of curiosity is the entire Torah the same in all versions? Or are
> > there different versions or interpretations of?
> >
> More consistent than most at least.
>
> Rigorously transcribed by hand such that a one-letter copy
> error causes the entire piece to be destroyed and a new one
> started which is why a Torah is so incredibly valuable. Few
> human exploits are done under as rigorous a regime:
>
> https://aish.com/48969731/
>
> Jack Welch made his name with 'six-sigma' QC. Torah is at
> another level!
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

The Bible has many books and the variations due to including excluding those that religious leaders have worried may confuse people in the New Testament do not change the meaning of the Bible in any way.

On 1/2/2023 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 5:40:54 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/1/2023 10:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sun, 01 Jan 2023 19:46:29 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 02 Jan 2023 06:36:43 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But which bible? There are something like 60 versions in the English
>>>>> language alone.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't count them but it looks like more than 60:
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations>
>>>
>>> O.K.... I didn't count them either so lets say, "A whole bunch!"
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity is the entire Torah the same in all versions? Or are
>>> there different versions or interpretations of?
>>>
>> More consistent than most at least.
>>
>> Rigorously transcribed by hand such that a one-letter copy
>> error causes the entire piece to be destroyed and a new one
>> started which is why a Torah is so incredibly valuable. Few
>> human exploits are done under as rigorous a regime:
>>
>> https://aish.com/48969731/
>>
>> Jack Welch made his name with 'six-sigma' QC. Torah is at
>> another level!

> The Bible has many books and the variations due to including excluding those that religious leaders have worried may confuse people in the New Testament do not change the meaning of the Bible in any way.
>

Torah is one thing. An unique thing among human works actually.

The various iterations versions and compilations of the
Christian bibles are quite another:

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/dating-the-oldest-new-testament-christian-manuscripts/

Texas Governor Miriam 'Ma' Ferguson opined, "If English was
good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for Texas.' You
don't want to make that same mistake, right?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/2/2023 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 4:20:23 PM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 12:04:22 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> John does that continually. He doesn't seem to know that you only need to read the Bible yourself just for what it is and not for what you want to "prove" with it. But in the end he will know it in the most personal sort of way.
>> I will finish your statement in the way you intended, but more explicitly.
>>
>> "he will know it in the most personal way because he is going to be tortured in hell for all eternity and that fills me with glee, " said Tom, or would have if he'd finished his sentence.
>>
>> You are entitled to your position but it makes me cringe, and does not make your version of religion seem inviting.
>
> Tim, what you chose to believe is your choice In John 14, Jesus said to His disciples, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” And that means that you ignore that at your own peril. Inventing words to put in my mouth when you have never read the Bible does you no justice.

So Tom, what are your thoughts on the differences and inconsistencies in
the four gospels? Especially the differences between John and the three
earlier synoptic gospels?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/2/2023 11:46 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/2/2023 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 4:20:23 PM UTC-8,
>> timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 12:04:22 PM UTC-5,
>>> cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> John does that continually. He doesn't seem to know that
>>>> you only need to read the Bible yourself just for what
>>>> it is and not for what you want to "prove" with it. But
>>>> in the end he will know it in the most personal sort of
>>>> way.
>>> I will finish your statement in the way you intended, but
>>> more explicitly.
>>>
>>> "he will know it in the most personal way because he is
>>> going to be tortured in hell for all eternity and that
>>> fills me with glee, " said Tom, or would have if he'd
>>> finished his sentence.
>>>
>>> You are entitled to your position but it makes me cringe,
>>> and does not make your version of religion seem inviting.
>>
>> Tim, what you chose to believe is your choice In John 14,
>> Jesus said to His disciples, "I am the way and the truth
>> and the life. No one comes to the Father except through
>> me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as
>> well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
>> And that means that you ignore that at your own peril.
>> Inventing words to put in my mouth when you have never
>> read the Bible does you no justice.
>
> So Tom, what are your thoughts on the differences and
> inconsistencies in the four gospels? Especially the
> differences between John and the three earlier synoptic
> gospels?
>

And after that assignment, start in on reconciling
contradictions within the various works of Karl Marx,
founder of another religion.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971