On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 2:46:09 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> In my case soldering irons from the days when Edison electric light
> wasn't around yet. You have to place them into a bed of coals or into a
> fire, wait, then solder. After 2-3 fittings, rinse and repeat. Which is
> why there are several irons.

By chance, I saw such irons still in active professional use just a few years ago. Rather than the bed of coals, I think it was a small propane burner in a pot.

Lest anybody assume otherwise, this was not for soldering wiring, but for soldering roof flashing. Apparently it's still common practice. I don't know why this would be preferred over a handheld propane torch, heating the iron directly in use, but presume the roofers know what they're doing better than I would.

-Luns

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 1:17:51 PM UTC-7, Luns Tee wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 2:46:09 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> > In my case soldering irons from the days when Edison electric light
> > wasn't around yet. You have to place them into a bed of coals or into a
> > fire, wait, then solder. After 2-3 fittings, rinse and repeat. Which is
> > why there are several irons.
> By chance, I saw such irons still in active professional use just a few years ago. Rather than the bed of coals, I think it was a small propane burner in a pot.
>
> Lest anybody assume otherwise, this was not for soldering wiring, but for soldering roof flashing. Apparently it's still common practice. I don't know why this would be preferred over a handheld propane torch, heating the iron directly in use, but presume the roofers know what they're doing better than I would.
>
> -Luns

Roofers want to be self contained - most contractors are that way. They use those massive soldering irons that can solder a whole lot of flashing before they need to be reheated. they also carry their own gas powered compressor for their staple guns carpenters for their nail guns.

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 09:51:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 19:54:39 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>On 4/26/2023 4:46 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> In my case soldering irons from the days when Edison
>>> electric light wasn't around yet. You have to place them
>>> into a bed of coals or into a fire, wait, then solder. After
>>> 2-3 fittings, rinse and repeat. Which is why there are
>>> several irons.
>
>>I was told to do that around anything electronic by an EE
>>customer and to not use an electric-heat solder unit.
>
>For modern soldering irons, MIL-STD-2000 specifies that the soldering
>iron tip to ground leakage voltage shall be less than 2 millivolts.
>It's quite safe. However, that assumes that the soldering iron is
>properly grounded through the ground (green) wire of the electrical
>outlet. If whatever you're working on is grounded to something else,
>and there's an electrical potential between the two grounds, it will
>appear on the soldering iron tip. I had this problem with a perfectly
>good soldering iron, where the power strip on my workbench had become
>ungrounded and leakage through defective filter capacitors on some of
>my vintage HP test equipment produced a 20VAC differential between the
>two grounds. I found the problem before I blew up anything. Just
>measure the voltage between AC ground and the soldering iron tip with
>a DVM (digital volt meter). If you see *ANY* voltage, AC or DC,
>something is wrong. Note that measuring 1mv is difficult and usually
>requires a Kelvin bridge.
>
>Soldering irons and soldering stations with only 2 wires on the AC
>power cord are legal, but not good enough. 3 wire power cords are
>better. The problem is not leakage but rather static electricity.
>Without a path to ground for the tip to discharge any static
>electricity from your cloths or shoes, the soldering iron tip will do
>the discharging for you through whatever electronics you're trying to
>solder. Make sure your soldering iron tip is grounded.
>
>"Can a soldering station guarantee tip grounding?"
><http://kb.hakkousa.com/Knowledgebase/10621/Can-a-soldering-station-guarantee-tip-grounding>
>
>You don't need one of these, but you might find it interesting.
>"Soldering Tip Voltage Tester"
><https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/86958.pdf>
>
>More than you probably wanted to know:
>"EOS analysis of soldering iron tip voltage"
><https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304388699000431>

Added to the problem of the "3 wire" soldering irons is the difficulty
in locating the adapter so you can plug it into the two wire
electrical system (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 05:16:01 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 13:17:49 -0700 (PDT), Luns Tee <luns@berkeley.edu>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 2:46:09?PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>> In my case soldering irons from the days when Edison electric light
>>> wasn't around yet. You have to place them into a bed of coals or into a
>>> fire, wait, then solder. After 2-3 fittings, rinse and repeat. Which is
>>> why there are several irons.
>>
>>By chance, I saw such irons still in active professional use just a few years ago. Rather than the bed of coals, I think it was a small propane burner in a pot.
>>
>>Lest anybody assume otherwise, this was not for soldering wiring, but for soldering roof flashing. Apparently it's still common practice. I don't know why this would be preferred over a handheld propane torch, heating the iron directly in use, but presume the roofers know what they're doing better than I would.
>>
>>-Luns
>
I'm guessing but it is possibly that using a torch might burn off any
soldering flux that was used and certainly using an open flame
presents a problem if the metal is "galvanized" as an open flame will
vaporize the zinc coating, the "galvanizing", and breathing zinc fumes
is a very serious matter that can lead to death.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 05:49:52 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 09:51:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>wrote:

>>Soldering irons and soldering stations with only 2 wires on the AC
>>power cord are legal, but not good enough. 3 wire power cords are
>>better. The problem is not leakage but rather static electricity.
>>Without a path to ground for the tip to discharge any static
>>electricity from your cloths or shoes, the soldering iron tip will do
>>the discharging for you through whatever electronics you're trying to
>>solder. Make sure your soldering iron tip is grounded.

>Added to the problem of the "3 wire" soldering irons is the difficulty
>in locating the adapter so you can plug it into the two wire
>electrical system (:-)

I still see the old 2 wire electrical wiring in my area. I received a
call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
I found three of the 3 wire to 2 wire adapters you mentioned in use:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=polarized+grounding+adapter&tbm=isch>
There are probably more but I couldn't get to all the wall outlets in
the house. Half the house was old and had no protective ground
(green) wire. The other half was more modern and used 3 wire grounded
wiring. However, the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
the mess for his son to fix this weekend.

This is NOT an isolated case. Whenever I setup computers, printers,
wireless, etc, I always check the outlets and power strips. (I've
found power strips wired backwards). When I bought my house in about
1973, I had to deal with a few ungrounded receptacles. Same with two
rentals I later purchased. I've found missing grounds and reversed
wires at a few customers houses over the years. Fortunately, nobody
has been electrocuted or equipment destroyed (mostly thanks to double
insulated tools and devices).

Electrical wiring standards are a good thing. Every country should
have one:
<https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/07/electrical-wiring-color-codes-nec-iec.html>
<https://www.electricaltechnology.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Electrical-Wiring-Color-Codes-NEC-IEC-Single-Phase-Three-Phase-AC.png>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 23:43:25 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 05:49:52 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 09:51:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>
>>>Soldering irons and soldering stations with only 2 wires on the AC
>>>power cord are legal, but not good enough. 3 wire power cords are
>>>better. The problem is not leakage but rather static electricity.
>>>Without a path to ground for the tip to discharge any static
>>>electricity from your cloths or shoes, the soldering iron tip will do
>>>the discharging for you through whatever electronics you're trying to
>>>solder. Make sure your soldering iron tip is grounded.
>
>>Added to the problem of the "3 wire" soldering irons is the difficulty
>>in locating the adapter so you can plug it into the two wire
>>electrical system (:-)
>
>I still see the old 2 wire electrical wiring in my area. I received a
>call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
>to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
>appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
><https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
>I found three of the 3 wire to 2 wire adapters you mentioned in use:
><https://www.google.com/search?q=polarized+grounding+adapter&tbm=isch>
>There are probably more but I couldn't get to all the wall outlets in
>the house. Half the house was old and had no protective ground
>(green) wire. The other half was more modern and used 3 wire grounded
>wiring. However, the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
>the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
>the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
>
>This is NOT an isolated case. Whenever I setup computers, printers,
>wireless, etc, I always check the outlets and power strips. (I've
>found power strips wired backwards). When I bought my house in about
>1973, I had to deal with a few ungrounded receptacles. Same with two
>rentals I later purchased. I've found missing grounds and reversed
>wires at a few customers houses over the years. Fortunately, nobody
>has been electrocuted or equipment destroyed (mostly thanks to double
>insulated tools and devices).
>
>Electrical wiring standards are a good thing. Every country should
>have one:
><https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/07/electrical-wiring-color-codes-nec-iec.html>
><https://www.electricaltechnology.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Electrical-Wiring-Color-Codes-NEC-IEC-Single-Phase-Three-Phase-AC.png>

I'm not sure abut brand new housing but certainly the houses I've
lived in were all 2 wire circuits... except for the hot water heaters
in the bathrooms which are wired 3 wire, actually 2 wire and a
ground..

I remember when I worked, as a civilian, on an airbase here and
inspected a brand new two story barracks building that was wired two
wire with the neutral grounded at the entrance :-) The specs stated "2
wire with ground" and the contractor argued that is what he had
installed. There were two wires and one of them was a ground.

After some argument, and the contractor threatening to sue, the A.F.
gave in and hired our company to completely rewire the building.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:54:46 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/26/2023 4:46 PM, Joerg wrote:
> > On 4/26/23 1:30 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>
> >>> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 10:42:54 AM UTC-7,
> >>> Joerg wrote:
> >>>> On 4/26/23 10:33 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 12:27:46 PM UTC-5,
> >>>>> Joerg wrote:
> >>>>>> On 4/25/23 8:40 PM, NFN Smith wrote:
> >>>>>>> After wasting most of April, I'm trying to get
> >>>>>>> consistent mileage.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Something that I thought of was the age of some of my
> >>>>>>> stuff. I realized
> >>>>>>> that the oldest stuff that I use:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> - Hardware: I have a set of 1st generation Look
> >>>>>>> pedals that still serve
> >>>>>>> me nicely.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> - Clothing: I have a set of acrylic arm warmers that
> >>>>>>> I use regularly
> >>>>>>> when it's cold.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I got the pedals used in 1990, and I think I got the
> >>>>>>> arm warmers about a
> >>>>>>> year or two before that.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> My road bike which was custom-assembled in 1982. It is
> >>>>>> the only road
> >>>>>> bike I have and it sees 3000-4000 miles per year. Good
> >>>>>> old non-indexed
> >>>>>> down-tube shifters and all. I've had riders ask me
> >>>>>> "Why are you reaching
> >>>>>> down but don't grab the bottle?"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Some of the stuff I added onto it is older, like a
> >>>>>> large reflector from
> >>>>>> the late 70's and a transistor to regulate a lighting
> >>>>>> voltage which is
> >>>>>> early 70's. Then some cloth-insulated (!) wire from my
> >>>>>> grandpa that is
> >>>>>> about 100 years old. Not sure if such small items count.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Regards, Joerg
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> >>>>> My Shimano 105 road pedals I would say are 9.5 years old.
> >>>>> Deacon Mark
> >>>>>
> >>>> That's brand new in my book :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> Much of the stuff in my use is older than I am, and I am
> >>>> now well into
> >>>> my 60's:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/sed/olddrill.JPG
> >>>> --
> >>>> Regards, Joerg
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> >>> I have a toolbox containing some tools that stretch
> >>> back to the
> >>> 1970's if not older.
> >>
> >> I have some user tools (molding planes) that might well
> >> have been made
> >> in the 1870s. Maybe earlier, I don't know. I'm certainly
> >> using tools
> >> that I bought new in the 1970s.
> >>
> >
> > In my case soldering irons from the days when Edison
> > electric light wasn't around yet. You have to place them
> > into a bed of coals or into a fire, wait, then solder. After
> > 2-3 fittings, rinse and repeat. Which is why there are
> > several irons.
> >
> I was told to do that around anything electronic by an EE
> customer and to not use an electric-heat solder unit.
> --

That must have been a very long time ago. My first job in electronics was an assembler in 1980, and magnetically coupled soldering tips were standard fare back then. I've heard tales that older style inductive irons used back in the tube days weren't temperature controlled very well, and in some cases put out inductive fields that could damage early solid state electronics.. Early transistors were so sensitive that, even using well-controlled soldering irons, they sold little heat sink clips to place on the transistor leads between the soldering point and the body of the part.

These days the thermal controls and any electrical fields that may possibly cause damage are more than well enough controlled such that even the most sensitive devices are safe (unless you're a tommy and you're doing it wrong)

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 2:43:39 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 05:49:52 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 09:51:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >wrote:
> >>Soldering irons and soldering stations with only 2 wires on the AC
> >>power cord are legal, but not good enough. 3 wire power cords are
> >>better. The problem is not leakage but rather static electricity.
> >>Without a path to ground for the tip to discharge any static
> >>electricity from your cloths or shoes, the soldering iron tip will do
> >>the discharging for you through whatever electronics you're trying to
> >>solder. Make sure your soldering iron tip is grounded.
> >Added to the problem of the "3 wire" soldering irons is the difficulty
> >in locating the adapter so you can plug it into the two wire
> >electrical system (:-)
> I still see the old 2 wire electrical wiring in my area.

My house still has old knob-n-tube remnants - not active but left in place when rewiring was done.

> I received a
> call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
> to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
> appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
> I found three of the 3 wire to 2 wire adapters you mentioned in use:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=polarized+grounding+adapter&tbm=isch>
> There are probably more but I couldn't get to all the wall outlets in
> the house. Half the house was old and had no protective ground
> (green) wire. The other half was more modern and used 3 wire grounded
> wiring. However, the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
> the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
> the mess for his son to fix this weekend.

Half of my house is the older two-wire inside "armor cable" housings. some of it's so old that I can't replace the outlet without the insulation on the wires disintegrating - and it's stranded wire to boot. When we first moved into the house, my wife went to vacuum the living room a promptly tripped a breaker, but it would only do that when she used the living room outlets.. I replaced the breaker - same result. During the subsequent troubleshooting I found that the living room had had been wired with neutral and hot reversed (Just the living room!). I have more electrical tales of woe - like putting new light fixtures in the basement and hearing arcing when I opened a junction box. Turns out a few feet away someone had cut a branch of the circuit - in armor cable - with what looked like a hatchet given the notch in the beam at the cut, and they didn't bother disconnecting the line at the junction box so there was a hot wire inside a crushed metal housing stabled to a wooden floor joist. Good times.....

>
> This is NOT an isolated case. Whenever I setup computers, printers,
> wireless, etc, I always check the outlets and power strips. (I've
> found power strips wired backwards). When I bought my house in about
> 1973, I had to deal with a few ungrounded receptacles. Same with two
> rentals I later purchased. I've found missing grounds and reversed
> wires at a few customers houses over the years. Fortunately, nobody
> has been electrocuted or equipment destroyed (mostly thanks to double
> insulated tools and devices).
>
> Electrical wiring standards are a good thing. Every country should
> have one:
> <https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/07/electrical-wiring-color-codes-nec-iec.html>
> <https://www.electricaltechnology.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Electrical-Wiring-Color-Codes-NEC-IEC-Single-Phase-Three-Phase-AC.png>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:31:21 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> My main road bike, which is a ~1986 Schwinn Paramount made from Columbus SLX tubing. I believe it was made in Waterford, WI. It still has its original Campy low-flange, loose-bearing hubs, but now with Mavic Open Sport rims and the original Campy sidepull caliper brakes. The original Campy crankset broke during a sprint and gave me some bruises and roadrash, so I'm now using a "no-name brand" compact crankset, a 9-speed cassette and the Campy friction shifters on the down tube.
Please pardon my brain flatulence, but how could I have forgotten that I had to replace the original Campy low-flange hubs with Shimano Ultegra years ago because the bearing races on the old Campy hubs became brinelled?

On 4/28/2023 7:19 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:31:21 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
>> My main road bike, which is a ~1986 Schwinn Paramount made from Columbus SLX tubing. I believe it was made in Waterford, WI. It still has its original Campy low-flange, loose-bearing hubs, but now with Mavic Open Sport rims and the original Campy sidepull caliper brakes. The original Campy crankset broke during a sprint and gave me some bruises and roadrash, so I'm now using a "no-name brand" compact crankset, a 9-speed cassette and the Campy friction shifters on the down tube.
> Please pardon my brain flatulence, but how could I have forgotten that I had to replace the original Campy low-flange hubs with Shimano Ultegra years ago because the bearing races on the old Campy hubs became brinelled?
>

Unlikely to have been 'brinelled'. More probably the
lubricant became dessicated and with water/dirt/crud added
suffered mechanical erosion.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/CiTzl.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aE5Dci8M8a8/SJYuTuE7ooI/AAAAAAAAANs/_9y-M492gYY/s400/IMG_2277.JPG

https://www.restoration.bike/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/damaged-hub-cone-1.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 6:02:25 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/28/2023 7:19 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:31:21 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> >> My main road bike, which is a ~1986 Schwinn Paramount made from Columbus SLX tubing. I believe it was made in Waterford, WI. It still has its original Campy low-flange, loose-bearing hubs, but now with Mavic Open Sport rims and the original Campy sidepull caliper brakes. The original Campy crankset broke during a sprint and gave me some bruises and roadrash, so I'm now using a "no-name brand" compact crankset, a 9-speed cassette and the Campy friction shifters on the down tube.
> > Please pardon my brain flatulence, but how could I have forgotten that I had to replace the original Campy low-flange hubs with Shimano Ultegra years ago because the bearing races on the old Campy hubs became brinelled?
> >
> Unlikely to have been 'brinelled'. More probably the
> lubricant became dessicated and with water/dirt/crud added
> suffered mechanical erosion.
>
> http://i.stack.imgur.com/CiTzl.jpg
>
> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aE5Dci8M8a8/SJYuTuE7ooI/AAAAAAAAANs/_9y-M492gYY/s400/IMG_2277.JPG
>
> https://www.restoration.bike/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/damaged-hub-cone-1.jpg
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Yes, the races became pitted.

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 5:19:58 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:31:21 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> > My main road bike, which is a ~1986 Schwinn Paramount made from Columbus SLX tubing. I believe it was made in Waterford, WI. It still has its original Campy low-flange, loose-bearing hubs, but now with Mavic Open Sport rims and the original Campy sidepull caliper brakes. The original Campy crankset broke during a sprint and gave me some bruises and roadrash, so I'm now using a "no-name brand" compact crankset, a 9-speed cassette and the Campy friction shifters on the down tube.
> Please pardon my brain flatulence, but how could I have forgotten that I had to replace the original Campy low-flange hubs with Shimano Ultegra years ago because the bearing races on the old Campy hubs became brinelled?

After I got back from my ride yesterday I went on a tour of the high end bike shops in the area - four of them. Almost all of the bikes in these shops were steel though they did have some top end carbon fiber. I ask all of them the expected life span of the CF bikes and got almost exactly the same answer - for their high end CF bikes FIVE years and beyond that the chance for catastrophic failure multiplied and then on Quora this morning a man who has been in the bike industry for 45 years said that 3 years was probably the limit for very high end carbon fiber bikes. Trek overbuilds their CF bikes so that they have a lifespan longer than people who ride CF bikes will keep such bikes so Trek can offer the stupid lifetime warranty because they never have to pay off on them.

But wait - Flunkyliar and Liebermann know far better than someone with 45 years of experience in the industry. I have a doctor's appointment with a geriatric specialist this morning to try and discover why the hell I'm so slow now. If this is normal than I can be satisfied simply to ride slowly. But although early in the ride I felt pretty good I got really slow late in the ride and my overall average was only 9 mph

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 6:02:25 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/28/2023 7:19 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:31:21 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> >> My main road bike, which is a ~1986 Schwinn Paramount made from Columbus SLX tubing. I believe it was made in Waterford, WI. It still has its original Campy low-flange, loose-bearing hubs, but now with Mavic Open Sport rims and the original Campy sidepull caliper brakes. The original Campy crankset broke during a sprint and gave me some bruises and roadrash, so I'm now using a "no-name brand" compact crankset, a 9-speed cassette and the Campy friction shifters on the down tube.
> > Please pardon my brain flatulence, but how could I have forgotten that I had to replace the original Campy low-flange hubs with Shimano Ultegra years ago because the bearing races on the old Campy hubs became brinelled?
> >
> Unlikely to have been 'brinelled'. More probably the
> lubricant became dessicated and with water/dirt/crud added
> suffered mechanical erosion.
>
> http://i.stack.imgur.com/CiTzl.jpg
>
> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aE5Dci8M8a8/SJYuTuE7ooI/AAAAAAAAANs/_9y-M492gYY/s400/IMG_2277.JPG
>
> https://www.restoration.bike/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/damaged-hub-cone-1.jpg
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Sealed bearings greatly reduce this problem.

On 4/28/2023 2:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> I received a
> call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
> to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
> appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
> ... the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
> the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
> the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
>
> This is NOT an isolated case.

On one bike tour, my wife, a cycling friend and I stayed overnight at a
different friend's house. After a rainy riding day, we were relaxing on
their screened-in porch when my wife touched a metal outlet cover and
got a slight shock. I felt nothing, then realized I was wearing shoes
while she had her bare feet on the concrete floor. Somehow that metal
cover was electrically hot.

In a much later visit, I worked on the problem. It was a real puzzle, as
in "why would the breaker not trip?" Eventually I found where a hot wire
touching the metal outlet box, PLUS a disconnected ground wire in a
basement ceiling fixture between that circuit and the breaker box.

I later returned with a tester similar to yours and found some outlets
with wires reversed, plus other anomalies beyond my understanding. I
recommended they hire an electrician to sort it out, but I don't know if
they ever did.

I was surprised by this because the owners bought the house only a few
years prior from the original owner, whose business was home
construction. I'd have thought everything in his own home would have
been done perfectly.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 11:23:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/28/2023 2:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > I received a
> > call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
> > to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
> > appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
> > <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
> > ... the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
> > the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
> > the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
> >
> > This is NOT an isolated case.
>
>On one bike tour, my wife, a cycling friend and I stayed overnight at a
>different friend's house. After a rainy riding day, we were relaxing on
>their screened-in porch when my wife touched a metal outlet cover and
>got a slight shock. I felt nothing, then realized I was wearing shoes
>while she had her bare feet on the concrete floor. Somehow that metal
>cover was electrically hot.
>
>In a much later visit, I worked on the problem. It was a real puzzle, as
>in "why would the breaker not trip?" Eventually I found where a hot wire
>touching the metal outlet box, PLUS a disconnected ground wire in a
>basement ceiling fixture between that circuit and the breaker box.
>
>I later returned with a tester similar to yours and found some outlets
>with wires reversed, plus other anomalies beyond my understanding. I
>recommended they hire an electrician to sort it out, but I don't know if
>they ever did.
>
>I was surprised by this because the owners bought the house only a few
>years prior from the original owner, whose business was home
>construction. I'd have thought everything in his own home would have
>been done perfectly.

As always, Krygowski can make up a personal experience antedote for
every occasion.

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:31:51 AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 11:23:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 4/28/2023 2:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > I received a
> > > call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
> > > to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
> > > appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
> > > <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
> > > ... the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
> > > the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
> > > the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
> > >
> > > This is NOT an isolated case.
> >
> >On one bike tour, my wife, a cycling friend and I stayed overnight at a
> >different friend's house. After a rainy riding day, we were relaxing on
> >their screened-in porch when my wife touched a metal outlet cover and
> >got a slight shock. I felt nothing, then realized I was wearing shoes
> >while she had her bare feet on the concrete floor. Somehow that metal
> >cover was electrically hot.
> >
> >In a much later visit, I worked on the problem. It was a real puzzle, as
> >in "why would the breaker not trip?" Eventually I found where a hot wire
> >touching the metal outlet box, PLUS a disconnected ground wire in a
> >basement ceiling fixture between that circuit and the breaker box.
> >
> >I later returned with a tester similar to yours and found some outlets
> >with wires reversed, plus other anomalies beyond my understanding. I
> >recommended they hire an electrician to sort it out, but I don't know if
> >they ever did.
> >
> >I was surprised by this because the owners bought the house only a few
> >years prior from the original owner, whose business was home
> >construction. I'd have thought everything in his own home would have
> >been done perfectly.
> As always, Krygowski can make up a personal experience antedote for
> every occasion.

Why do you suppose no one else has experiences like Krygowski? Years ago California made it law that all houses have three prong outlets., There was no way that the older houses could run the separate ground cable but these outlets also had the large and small connectors. AC lines have a an active and a neutral line so when you plug them in you can only go in one way and you don't need a ground because the neutral line effectively acts as a ground. You could ask Liebermann since he was so eager to show us his EE diploma and he did work in analog electronics so he should have known everything about this but he is probably unaware that devices that have the old fashion two small prong plugs have their cases insulated from the power. Layer after layer of stupidity about absolutely everything.

On 4/28/2023 11:31 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 11:23:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/28/2023 2:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> I received a
>>> call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
>>> to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
>>> appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
>>> ... the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
>>> the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
>>> the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
>>>
>>> This is NOT an isolated case.
>>
>> On one bike tour, my wife, a cycling friend and I stayed overnight at a
>> different friend's house. After a rainy riding day, we were relaxing on
>> their screened-in porch when my wife touched a metal outlet cover and
>> got a slight shock. I felt nothing, then realized I was wearing shoes
>> while she had her bare feet on the concrete floor. Somehow that metal
>> cover was electrically hot.
>>
>> In a much later visit, I worked on the problem. It was a real puzzle, as
>> in "why would the breaker not trip?" Eventually I found where a hot wire
>> touching the metal outlet box, PLUS a disconnected ground wire in a
>> basement ceiling fixture between that circuit and the breaker box.
>>
>> I later returned with a tester similar to yours and found some outlets
>> with wires reversed, plus other anomalies beyond my understanding. I
>> recommended they hire an electrician to sort it out, but I don't know if
>> they ever did.
>>
>> I was surprised by this because the owners bought the house only a few
>> years prior from the original owner, whose business was home
>> construction. I'd have thought everything in his own home would have
>> been done perfectly.
>
>
> As always, Krygowski can make up a personal experience antedote for
> every occasion.

:-) The guy who doesn't care what I say took a full eight minutes to
respond! His weird compulsion remains.

It makes sense that pathological introverts who ride only back and forth
on bike trails have few experiences to relate. Others have more
interesting lives.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 12:32:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/28/2023 11:31 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 11:23:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/28/2023 2:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> I received a
>>>> call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
>>>> to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
>>>> appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
>>>> ... the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
>>>> the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
>>>> the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
>>>>
>>>> This is NOT an isolated case.
>>>
>>> On one bike tour, my wife, a cycling friend and I stayed overnight at a
>>> different friend's house. After a rainy riding day, we were relaxing on
>>> their screened-in porch when my wife touched a metal outlet cover and
>>> got a slight shock. I felt nothing, then realized I was wearing shoes
>>> while she had her bare feet on the concrete floor. Somehow that metal
>>> cover was electrically hot.
>>>
>>> In a much later visit, I worked on the problem. It was a real puzzle, as
>>> in "why would the breaker not trip?" Eventually I found where a hot wire
>>> touching the metal outlet box, PLUS a disconnected ground wire in a
>>> basement ceiling fixture between that circuit and the breaker box.
>>>
>>> I later returned with a tester similar to yours and found some outlets
>>> with wires reversed, plus other anomalies beyond my understanding. I
>>> recommended they hire an electrician to sort it out, but I don't know if
>>> they ever did.
>>>
>>> I was surprised by this because the owners bought the house only a few
>>> years prior from the original owner, whose business was home
>>> construction. I'd have thought everything in his own home would have
>>> been done perfectly.
>>
>>
>> As always, Krygowski can make up a personal experience antedote for
>> every occasion.
>
>:-) The guy who doesn't care what I say took a full eight minutes to
>respond!

Who says I don't care what you say? Actually, I find many of your
posts very entertaining.

>His weird compulsion remains.

Is it also a weird compulsion that you respond to many of Tom Kunich's
posts? You probably do that more than I respond to yours.

But, whatever, I understand that, being a narcissistic, you don't like
having your stories questioned.

>It makes sense that pathological introverts who ride only back and forth
>on bike trails have few experiences to relate. Others have more
>interesting lives.

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 12:57:10 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 12:32:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 4/28/2023 11:31 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 11:23:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/28/2023 2:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>> I received a
>>>>> call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
>>>>> to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
>>>>> appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
>>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
>>>>> ... the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
>>>>> the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
>>>>> the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is NOT an isolated case.
>>>>
>>>> On one bike tour, my wife, a cycling friend and I stayed overnight at a
>>>> different friend's house. After a rainy riding day, we were relaxing on
>>>> their screened-in porch when my wife touched a metal outlet cover and
>>>> got a slight shock. I felt nothing, then realized I was wearing shoes
>>>> while she had her bare feet on the concrete floor. Somehow that metal
>>>> cover was electrically hot.
>>>>
>>>> In a much later visit, I worked on the problem. It was a real puzzle, as
>>>> in "why would the breaker not trip?" Eventually I found where a hot wire
>>>> touching the metal outlet box, PLUS a disconnected ground wire in a
>>>> basement ceiling fixture between that circuit and the breaker box.
>>>>
>>>> I later returned with a tester similar to yours and found some outlets
>>>> with wires reversed, plus other anomalies beyond my understanding. I
>>>> recommended they hire an electrician to sort it out, but I don't know if
>>>> they ever did.
>>>>
>>>> I was surprised by this because the owners bought the house only a few
>>>> years prior from the original owner, whose business was home
>>>> construction. I'd have thought everything in his own home would have
>>>> been done perfectly.
>>>
>>>
>>> As always, Krygowski can make up a personal experience antedote for
>>> every occasion.
>>
>>:-) The guy who doesn't care what I say took a full eight minutes to
>>respond!
>
>Who says I don't care what you say? Actually, I find many of your
>posts very entertaining.
>
>>His weird compulsion remains.
>
>Is it also a weird compulsion that you respond to many of Tom Kunich's
>posts? You probably do that more than I respond to yours.
>
>But, whatever, I understand that, being a narcissistic, you don't like
>having your stories questioned.
>
>>It makes sense that pathological introverts who ride only back and forth
>>on bike trails have few experiences to relate. Others have more
>>interesting lives.

Says the guy whose major expreriences are riding bicycle and
jibber-jabbing with other people who ride bicycles.

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:34:05 PM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 12:57:10 -0400, Catrike Rider
> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 12:32:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> ><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >>On 4/28/2023 11:31 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 11:23:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 4/28/2023 2:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>>>> I received a
> >>>>> call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
> >>>>> to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
> >>>>> appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
> >>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
> >>>>> ... the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
> >>>>> the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
> >>>>> the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is NOT an isolated case.
> >>>>
> >>>> On one bike tour, my wife, a cycling friend and I stayed overnight at a
> >>>> different friend's house. After a rainy riding day, we were relaxing on
> >>>> their screened-in porch when my wife touched a metal outlet cover and
> >>>> got a slight shock. I felt nothing, then realized I was wearing shoes
> >>>> while she had her bare feet on the concrete floor. Somehow that metal
> >>>> cover was electrically hot.
> >>>>
> >>>> In a much later visit, I worked on the problem. It was a real puzzle, as
> >>>> in "why would the breaker not trip?" Eventually I found where a hot wire
> >>>> touching the metal outlet box, PLUS a disconnected ground wire in a
> >>>> basement ceiling fixture between that circuit and the breaker box.
> >>>>
> >>>> I later returned with a tester similar to yours and found some outlets
> >>>> with wires reversed, plus other anomalies beyond my understanding. I
> >>>> recommended they hire an electrician to sort it out, but I don't know if
> >>>> they ever did.
> >>>>
> >>>> I was surprised by this because the owners bought the house only a few
> >>>> years prior from the original owner, whose business was home
> >>>> construction. I'd have thought everything in his own home would have
> >>>> been done perfectly.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> As always, Krygowski can make up a personal experience antedote for
> >>> every occasion.
> >>
> >>:-) The guy who doesn't care what I say took a full eight minutes to
> >>respond!
> >
> >Who says I don't care what you say? Actually, I find many of your
> >posts very entertaining.
> >
> >>His weird compulsion remains.
> >
> >Is it also a weird compulsion that you respond to many of Tom Kunich's
> >posts? You probably do that more than I respond to yours.
> >
> >But, whatever, I understand that, being a narcissistic, you don't like
> >having your stories questioned.
> >
> >>It makes sense that pathological introverts who ride only back and forth
> >>on bike trails have few experiences to relate. Others have more
> >>interesting lives.
> Says the guy whose major expreriences are riding bicycle and
> jibber-jabbing with other people who ride bicycles.

I have in 1200 miles this year so far. How many do you suppose Frank has? Or do you suppose he has a friend that actually rides bikes and doesn't just talk about it?

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 07:30:01 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>I ask all of them the expected life span of the CF bikes and got almost exactly the same answer - for their high end CF bikes FIVE years and beyond that the chance for catastrophic failure multiplied and then on Quora this morning a man who has been in the bike industry for 45 years said that 3 years was probably the limit for very high end carbon fiber bikes.

I don't believe you. I just checked Quora for your postings and found
nothing relating to carbon fiber or bicycles from you:
<https://www.quora.com/search?q=carbon%20fiber&author=379224917>
<https://www.quora.com/search?q=CF&author=379224917>
<https://www.quora.com/search?q=bicycle&author=379224917>
<https://www.quora.com/search?q=cycling&author=379224917>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 09:02:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:31:51?AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 11:23:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 4/28/2023 2:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> > > I received a
>> > > call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
>> > > to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
>> > > appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
>> > > <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
>> > > ... the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
>> > > the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
>> > > the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
>> > >
>> > > This is NOT an isolated case.
>> >
>> >On one bike tour, my wife, a cycling friend and I stayed overnight at a
>> >different friend's house. After a rainy riding day, we were relaxing on
>> >their screened-in porch when my wife touched a metal outlet cover and
>> >got a slight shock. I felt nothing, then realized I was wearing shoes
>> >while she had her bare feet on the concrete floor. Somehow that metal
>> >cover was electrically hot.
>> >
>> >In a much later visit, I worked on the problem. It was a real puzzle, as
>> >in "why would the breaker not trip?" Eventually I found where a hot wire
>> >touching the metal outlet box, PLUS a disconnected ground wire in a
>> >basement ceiling fixture between that circuit and the breaker box.
>> >
>> >I later returned with a tester similar to yours and found some outlets
>> >with wires reversed, plus other anomalies beyond my understanding. I
>> >recommended they hire an electrician to sort it out, but I don't know if
>> >they ever did.
>> >
>> >I was surprised by this because the owners bought the house only a few
>> >years prior from the original owner, whose business was home
>> >construction. I'd have thought everything in his own home would have
>> >been done perfectly.
>> As always, Krygowski can make up a personal experience antedote for
>> every occasion.
>
>Why do you suppose no one else has experiences like Krygowski? Years ago California made it law that all houses have three prong outlets., There was no way that the older houses could run the separate ground cable but these outlets also had the large and small connectors. AC lines have a an active and a neutral line so when you plug them in you can only go in one way and you don't need a ground because the neutral line effectively acts as a ground. You could ask Liebermann since he was so eager to show us his EE diploma and he did work in analog electronics so he should have known everything about this but he is probably unaware that devices that have the old fashion two small prong plugs have their cases insulated from the power. Layer after layer of stupidity about absolutely everything.

Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.

As for California? Who knows what they will do. I read in the news the
other day that they are talking about giving millions to the black
people because they used to be slaves, a hundred years ago....
although slavery was never legal in California.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 12:57:10 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 12:32:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 4/28/2023 11:31 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 11:23:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/28/2023 2:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>> I received a
>>>>> call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
>>>>> to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
>>>>> appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
>>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
>>>>> ... the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
>>>>> the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
>>>>> the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is NOT an isolated case.
>>>>
>>>> On one bike tour, my wife, a cycling friend and I stayed overnight at a
>>>> different friend's house. After a rainy riding day, we were relaxing on
>>>> their screened-in porch when my wife touched a metal outlet cover and
>>>> got a slight shock. I felt nothing, then realized I was wearing shoes
>>>> while she had her bare feet on the concrete floor. Somehow that metal
>>>> cover was electrically hot.
>>>>
>>>> In a much later visit, I worked on the problem. It was a real puzzle, as
>>>> in "why would the breaker not trip?" Eventually I found where a hot wire
>>>> touching the metal outlet box, PLUS a disconnected ground wire in a
>>>> basement ceiling fixture between that circuit and the breaker box.
>>>>
>>>> I later returned with a tester similar to yours and found some outlets
>>>> with wires reversed, plus other anomalies beyond my understanding. I
>>>> recommended they hire an electrician to sort it out, but I don't know if
>>>> they ever did.
>>>>
>>>> I was surprised by this because the owners bought the house only a few
>>>> years prior from the original owner, whose business was home
>>>> construction. I'd have thought everything in his own home would have
>>>> been done perfectly.
>>>
>>>
>>> As always, Krygowski can make up a personal experience antedote for
>>> every occasion.
>>
>>:-) The guy who doesn't care what I say took a full eight minutes to
>>respond!
>
>Who says I don't care what you say? Actually, I find many of your
>posts very entertaining.
>
>>His weird compulsion remains.
>
>Is it also a weird compulsion that you respond to many of Tom Kunich's
>posts? You probably do that more than I respond to yours.
>

Birds of a feather flock together ?

A known fact since, at least, the 2nd Century BC
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 7:08:46 p.m. UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 09:02:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:31:51?AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 11:23:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 4/28/2023 2:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> > > I received a
> >> > > call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
> >> > > to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
> >> > > appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
> >> > > <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
> >> > > ... the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
> >> > > the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
> >> > > the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
> >> > >
> >> > > This is NOT an isolated case.
> >> >
> >> >On one bike tour, my wife, a cycling friend and I stayed overnight at a
> >> >different friend's house. After a rainy riding day, we were relaxing on
> >> >their screened-in porch when my wife touched a metal outlet cover and
> >> >got a slight shock. I felt nothing, then realized I was wearing shoes
> >> >while she had her bare feet on the concrete floor. Somehow that metal
> >> >cover was electrically hot.
> >> >
> >> >In a much later visit, I worked on the problem. It was a real puzzle, as
> >> >in "why would the breaker not trip?" Eventually I found where a hot wire
> >> >touching the metal outlet box, PLUS a disconnected ground wire in a
> >> >basement ceiling fixture between that circuit and the breaker box.
> >> >
> >> >I later returned with a tester similar to yours and found some outlets
> >> >with wires reversed, plus other anomalies beyond my understanding. I
> >> >recommended they hire an electrician to sort it out, but I don't know if
> >> >they ever did.
> >> >
> >> >I was surprised by this because the owners bought the house only a few
> >> >years prior from the original owner, whose business was home
> >> >construction. I'd have thought everything in his own home would have
> >> >been done perfectly.
> >> As always, Krygowski can make up a personal experience antedote for
> >> every occasion.
> >
> >Why do you suppose no one else has experiences like Krygowski? Years ago California made it law that all houses have three prong outlets., There was no way that the older houses could run the separate ground cable but these outlets also had the large and small connectors. AC lines have a an active and a neutral line so when you plug them in you can only go in one way and you don't need a ground because the neutral line effectively acts as a ground. You could ask Liebermann since he was so eager to show us his EE diploma and he did work in analog electronics so he should have known everything about this but he is probably unaware that devices that have the old fashion two small prong plugs have their cases insulated from the power. Layer after layer of stupidity about absolutely everything.
> Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
> neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
> the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
> before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>
> As for California? Who knows what they will do. I read in the news the
> other day that they are talking about giving millions to the black
> people because they used to be slaves, a hundred years ago....
> although slavery was never legal in California.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

What gets me is that black people in Africa, and Amerindians in North America, were enslaving others long before the coming of Europeans to those areas.

Cheers

On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700, NFN Smith <worldoff9908@gmail.com>
wrote:

[snip}

> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?

My Fuji Grand Tourer was pretty old when I had the components on my
Raleigh Carleton moved onto it. The Carleton had a stripped brake
bridge, and Spouse had recently bought a Raleigh Pro. Seventies,
eighties?

I think his grand nephew has the Pro now. The Carleton might be up
in the barn attic, or we may have given it to the same nephew.

The weather and my schedule allowed a short ride this morning. (27
April 2023) I've worn out two sets of wire panniers, but it may
still have the pedals that were on it when clipless pedals came in.
There was a presentation on clipless at a bike-club meeting, and I
thought "That's what I'll buy when my pedals wear out!" But I'd just
bought a pair of pedals with replaceable bearings. *Standard*
bearings, to reference another thread. I recall a mechanic sending me
to a hardware store so that I wouldn't have to wait for him to order .
.. . I *think* it was bearings.

Eventually, I realized that pedals that can't be used when one isn't
wearing cleats don't suit the way I ride.

One of my sewing machines is probably over a century old, and I've had
it since the sixties, but I can't say I use it because it needs repair
and I can't lift it into the car to take it to the repair shop. There
are things that it does better than newer machines -- it cost a year's
salary when it was new -- but the Nechhi Lycia I bought in 1965 does
them adequately.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net