On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 6:54:06 AM UTC-7, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Mon, 01 May 2023 10:56:42 GMT schrieb Roger Meriman
> <ro...@sarlet.com>:
> >Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> >> Am Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700 schrieb NFN Smith
> >> <worldo...@gmail.com>:
> >>
> >>
> >>> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
> >>
> >> I still use the original Ortlieb Back Roller panniers shown in a picture
> >> I took in 1992, while on vacation with my whole family.
> >>
> >> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/urlaub/emsland1992.jpeg>
> >
> >>
> >> Sadly, the Sparta Cornwall bicycle is long gone, those panniers are now
> >> mounted on an inferior dutch style bicycle made by Prophete. Good enough
> >> for the use case, shopping and transportation nearby.
> >
> >I use those though they only last few years, before they get worn thin, and
> >start to leak.
> Legend has it, that Ortlieb Back Rollers originally where made from PVC
> truck tarpaulin, which is extremely strong and tear-resistant. Later,
> Ortlieb changed materials (and colors) a few times.
> <https://www.ortlieb.com/en_us/about-us>
> >
> >Almost certainly as I brush them as I pass through the alley way behind my
> >house to the street so they rub on the pebbles dashed wall.
> That might explain it. In what year did you buy your Ortliebs?
>
>
> --
> Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

Mine were waterproof canvas and while I bought them in the 60's they are still around in the garage somewhere. I run across them every now and again. But I am limited in my range now to a day or two since I don't want to get too far from my medication.

On 4/27/23 3:50 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 05:16:01 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 13:17:49 -0700 (PDT), Luns Tee <luns@berkeley.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 2:46:09?PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>> In my case soldering irons from the days when Edison electric light
>>>> wasn't around yet. You have to place them into a bed of coals or into a
>>>> fire, wait, then solder. After 2-3 fittings, rinse and repeat. Which is
>>>> why there are several irons.
>>>
>>> By chance, I saw such irons still in active professional use just a few years ago. Rather than the bed of coals, I think it was a small propane burner in a pot.
>>>
>>> Lest anybody assume otherwise, this was not for soldering wiring, but for soldering roof flashing. Apparently it's still common practice. I don't know why this would be preferred over a handheld propane torch, heating the iron directly in use, but presume the roofers know what they're doing better than I would.
>>>
>>> -Luns
>>
> I'm guessing but it is possibly that using a torch might burn off any
> soldering flux that was used and certainly using an open flame
> presents a problem if the metal is "galvanized" as an open flame will
> vaporize the zinc coating, the "galvanizing", and breathing zinc fumes
> is a very serious matter that can lead to death.
>

Probably the main reson is that they don't want to carry anything with a
flame onto the roof. Too easy to have an accident and then you have a
fire (I've seen it happen).

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 5:46:09 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> In my case soldering irons from the days when Edison electric light
> wasn't around yet. You have to place them into a bed of coals or into a
> fire, wait, then solder. After 2-3 fittings, rinse and repeat. Which is
> why there are several irons.
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>

We had to learn to use those things in shop class. Probably that was eighth grade so around 1967, give or take. The tip was about an inch wide and about 4 inches long, and after heating we used it to join sheet metal. I have never seen one used in the wild.

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
> neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
> the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
> before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>

> John B.

This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM

On Tue, 16 May 2023 17:13:12 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
>> neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
>> the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
>> before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>>
>
>> John B.
>
>This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM
>

(:-) I even remember a "Hooch", in this case similar to a tent
platform (yes you can google it) with a galvanized roof that had
voltage on the metal roof. It turned out that for some reason someone
had connected the galvanized metal roof to the neutral, apparently
believing that he had "grounded" it (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tue, 16 May 2023 17:13:12 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>> Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
>>> neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
>>> the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
>>> before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>>>
>>
>>> John B.
>>
>>This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.
>>
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM
>>
>
> (:-) I even remember a "Hooch", in this case similar to a tent
> platform (yes you can google it) with a galvanized roof that had
> voltage on the metal roof. It turned out that for some reason someone
> had connected the galvanized metal roof to the neutral, apparently
> believing that he had "grounded" it (:-)

Maybe they just wanted to keep cats off.

On Tue, 16 May 2023 21:14:46 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:

>John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 16 May 2023 17:13:12 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
>> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>>> Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
>>>> neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
>>>> the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
>>>> before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>>>>
>>>
>>>> John B.
>>>
>>>This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.
>>>
>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM
>>>
>>
>> (:-) I even remember a "Hooch", in this case similar to a tent
>> platform (yes you can google it) with a galvanized roof that had
>> voltage on the metal roof. It turned out that for some reason someone
>> had connected the galvanized metal roof to the neutral, apparently
>> believing that he had "grounded" it (:-)
>
>Maybe they just wanted to keep cats off.

I don't think so (:-) the guys living in the "hooch" got tired of
getting shocked I guess and call it in as a discrepancy to the
electric shop where I was working at the time.

But re cats on the roof... electricity doesn't work that way. You can
sit on a 4,000 volt transmission line with no problems at all.... as
long as you don't touch anything but the line (:-) So cats jumping up
on the roof probably wouldn't feel a thing (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/16/2023 9:36 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> But re cats on the roof... electricity doesn't work that way. You can
> sit on a 4,000 volt transmission line with no problems at all.... as
> long as you don't touch anything but the line (:-) So cats jumping up
> on the roof probably wouldn't feel a thing (:-)

At one place we lived for a while long ago, we had problems with large
neighborhood dogs allowed to run free at night. It was not unusual for
them to overturn our garbage cans. Eventually I ran a hot line to the
garbage cans. I knew there was some risk, so I plugged it in last thing
at night and unplugged first thing in the morning.

Within a day or two we were awakened by a dog yelping loudly and running
away. The problem never returned.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I did get a nice tingle while connecting computer cables back in the manufacturing plant. The office network was that old twin-ax stuff. The computer was plugged into an outlet wired backwards, resulting in a hot chassis, but the admin person had no ground nearby and never got shocked. So the shield on the cable connected to the chassis was also hot, but when I tried connecting to the next cable (barrel connector between the two male cable ends I think, it's been a while) I had hot in one hand and ground in the other..

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:51:17 PM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:
> I did get a nice tingle while connecting computer cables back in the manufacturing plant. The office network was that old twin-ax stuff. The computer was plugged into an outlet wired backwards, resulting in a hot chassis, but the admin person had no ground nearby and never got shocked. So the shield on the cable connected to the chassis was also hot, but when I tried connecting to the next cable (barrel connector between the two male cable ends I think, it's been a while) I had hot in one hand and ground in the other.

Better story from that same plant. Maintenance guy was up on a ladder, guy was a yankee in a rural Alabama plant so didn't quite fit in, anyway he was about to wire in an outlet for a time clock or something similar. The maintenance chief and I were watching him, so he hollered down was the circuit off. Maintenance chief yelled back, yup. Next, huge amount of cuss words from the ladder guy. Circuit was NOT off. Mainteance chief looked at me and said, "next time he'll check."

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:13:15 PM UTC-7, Tim R wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> > Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
> > neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
> > the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
> > before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
> >
> > John B.
>
> This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM
The neutral is "grounded" via the center tap of the pole pig secondary, which is a ground only insofar as it theoretically is at ground potential, but if one leg of the pole pig secondary is loaded down a lot more than the other leg, there will be voltage on the center tap. Also, the actual ground is a long distance away, at the distribution station, so it's not a really low-resistance ground.

On 5/16/2023 9:51 PM, Tim R wrote:
> I did get a nice tingle while connecting computer cables back in the manufacturing plant. The office network was that old twin-ax stuff. The computer was plugged into an outlet wired backwards, resulting in a hot chassis, but the admin person had no ground nearby and never got shocked. So the shield on the cable connected to the chassis was also hot, but when I tried connecting to the next cable (barrel connector between the two male cable ends I think, it's been a while) I had hot in one hand and ground in the other.

Two stories from my teens: We used to walk or bike to a neighborhood
convenience store and/or ice cream parlor. They had two chest-style
coolers on the floor with glass sliding tops, containing various ice
cream treats. For a while, we found we could get a strong tingle by
touching both coolers. For teenagers, that was fun. We were disappointed
when it got fixed.

Also fun for a while was the electric fence wire atop the chain link
fence around a nearby hunting club. We'd pick up a fallen branch and
hold it against the wire to get a funny tingle.

One day one of the less-bright members of our crew decided that instead
of a wooden branch, he'd test the wire with a bit of metal pipe he found
lying on the ground. His loud yell convinced the rest of us that no more
testing was needed.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 16 May 2023 19:01:30 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:51:17?PM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:
>> I did get a nice tingle while connecting computer cables back in the manufacturing plant. The office network was that old twin-ax stuff. The computer was plugged into an outlet wired backwards, resulting in a hot chassis, but the admin person had no ground nearby and never got shocked. So the shield on the cable connected to the chassis was also hot, but when I tried connecting to the next cable (barrel connector between the two male cable ends I think, it's been a while) I had hot in one hand and ground in the other.
>
>Better story from that same plant. Maintenance guy was up on a ladder, guy was a yankee in a rural Alabama plant so didn't quite fit in, anyway he was about to wire in an outlet for a time clock or something similar. The maintenance chief and I were watching him, so he hollered down was the circuit off. Maintenance chief yelled back, yup. Next, huge amount of cuss words from the ladder guy. Circuit was NOT off. Mainteance chief looked at me and said, "next time he'll check."

One day when I was around twelve years old, my farm dwelling parents
had some visitors from the city. They brought their son, who was a few
years older than me and who thought he walked on water and clearly
looked down on this country farm boy.

I decided to take him down a few notches by taking him out in the
pasture to show him how to shoot gophers with my .22 rifle. After
picking off a couple of the seed-corn eating rodents, I offered to
show him how. He refused the offer, knowing he had no chance of
matching my shooting.

Undaunted, I led him over to an electric fence and explained that it
was electrified and that he'd get a mild shock if he touched it. He
did, and he got the mild shock. Then I told him that you could pee on
it and the salt in urine made it almost totally non-conductive. I
showed him by peeing on the fence. "See, I said, I only got a slight
tingle, which actually, I said with a wink, wasn't all that
unpleasant.

I didn't tell him that if you listened carefully, you could hear when
the device switched the power on and off. I'd been careful to modify
my aim so as not to pee on the fence when it was hot.

I don't remember the punishment I got from that, but I'll bet my mom
and dad laughed about it later.

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:13:15 PM UTC-7, Tim R wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> > Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
> > neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
> > the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
> > before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
> >
> > John B.
>
> This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM
Aside from the fact that I'm an EE and here in California neutral lines are grounded at the pole transformers that was confirmed by my brother who is a licensed electrician. This may not be the case in every state but I do not have a third wire ground and have never received a shock from the neutral to ground. However, taking precautions has never killed people.

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Tue, 16 May 2023 19:01:30 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:51:17?PM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:
>>> I did get a nice tingle while connecting computer cables back in the
>>> manufacturing plant. The office network was that old twin-ax stuff. The
>>> computer was plugged into an outlet wired backwards, resulting in a hot
>>> chassis, but the admin person had no ground nearby and never got
>>> shocked. So the shield on the cable connected to the chassis was also
>>> hot, but when I tried connecting to the next cable (barrel connector
>>> between the two male cable ends I think, it's been a while) I had hot
>>> in one hand and ground in the other.
>>
>> Better story from that same plant. Maintenance guy was up on a ladder,
>> guy was a yankee in a rural Alabama plant so didn't quite fit in, anyway
>> he was about to wire in an outlet for a time clock or something similar.
>> The maintenance chief and I were watching him, so he hollered down was
>> the circuit off. Maintenance chief yelled back, yup. Next, huge amount
>> of cuss words from the ladder guy. Circuit was NOT off. Mainteance
>> chief looked at me and said, "next time he'll check."
>
> One day when I was around twelve years old, my farm dwelling parents
> had some visitors from the city. They brought their son, who was a few
> years older than me and who thought he walked on water and clearly
> looked down on this country farm boy.
>
> I decided to take him down a few notches by taking him out in the
> pasture to show him how to shoot gophers with my .22 rifle. After
> picking off a couple of the seed-corn eating rodents, I offered to
> show him how. He refused the offer, knowing he had no chance of
> matching my shooting.
>
> Undaunted, I led him over to an electric fence and explained that it
> was electrified and that he'd get a mild shock if he touched it. He
> did, and he got the mild shock. Then I told him that you could pee on
> it and the salt in urine made it almost totally non-conductive. I
> showed him by peeing on the fence. "See, I said, I only got a slight
> tingle, which actually, I said with a wink, wasn't all that
> unpleasant.
>
> I didn't tell him that if you listened carefully, you could hear when
> the device switched the power on and off. I'd been careful to modify
> my aim so as not to pee on the fence when it was hot.
>
> I don't remember the punishment I got from that, but I'll bet my mom
> and dad laughed about it later.
>
Seems to give a bigger jolt if someone else touched you as well! Electric
fences that is!

Roger Merriman

On Wed, 17 May 2023 13:00:35 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:13:15?PM UTC-7, Tim R wrote:
>> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> > Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
>> > neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
>> > the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
>> > before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>> >
>> > John B.
>>
>> This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM
>Aside from the fact that I'm an EE and here in California neutral lines are grounded at the pole transformers that was confirmed by my brother who is a licensed electrician. This may not be the case in every state but I do not have a third wire ground and have never received a shock from the neutral to ground. However, taking precautions has never killed people.

My goodness! Now Tommy has become an Electrical Engineer... with out
ever attending school or even as Frank did, taking the PE examination.

Will miracles never cease?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 6:35:21 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 17 May 2023 13:00:35 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:13:15?PM UTC-7, Tim R wrote:
> >> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> >> > Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
> >> > neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
> >> > the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
> >> > before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
> >> >
> >> > John B.
> >>
> >> This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM
> >Aside from the fact that I'm an EE

No, he's not. If he were, he would know that

> and here in California neutral lines are grounded at the pole transformers

is wrong

> that was confirmed by my brother who is a licensed electrician.

Must be the same brother who convinced him that aluminum oxide is flammable.. What kind of idiot who claims to have done professional telephone wiring thinks they bring the neutral to earth ground at the pole? There's this thing called the National Electrical Code (NFPA 70) which has been enforced as law in california since the early 60's.

> > This may not be the case in every state but I do not have a third wire ground and have never received a shock from the neutral to ground. However, taking precautions has never killed people.

The NEC required grounded polarized outlets since 1962.
https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70
"Adopted in all 50 states, NFPA 70, National Electrical Code (NEC) is the benchmark for safe electrical design, installation, and inspection to protect people and property from electrical hazards."

If his house was built before 1962 it may have two-wire outlets and a fuse box. For someone who claims to be such a brilliant and wealthy retired engineer, it's surprising he never took the initiative to have his house upgraded just as a safety precaution. After all, "taking precautions has never killed people."

> My goodness! Now Tommy has become an Electrical Engineer... with out
> ever attending school or even as Frank did, taking the PE examination.
>
> Will miracles never cease?

He's been claiming that since he figured out how to post on the internet. Not that it makes it any more truthful....

> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On 5/17/2023 4:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Aside from the fact that I'm an EE and here in California neutral lines are grounded at the pole transformers that was confirmed by my brother who is a licensed electrician. This may not be the case in every state but I do not have a third wire ground and have never received a shock from the neutral to ground.

SMH

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 17 May 2023 13:56:16 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Tue, 16 May 2023 19:01:30 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
><timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:51:17?PM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:
>>> I did get a nice tingle while connecting computer cables back in the manufacturing plant. The office network was that old twin-ax stuff. The computer was plugged into an outlet wired backwards, resulting in a hot chassis, but the admin person had no ground nearby and never got shocked. So the shield on the cable connected to the chassis was also hot, but when I tried connecting to the next cable (barrel connector between the two male cable ends I think, it's been a while) I had hot in one hand and ground in the other.
>>
>>Better story from that same plant. Maintenance guy was up on a ladder, guy was a yankee in a rural Alabama plant so didn't quite fit in, anyway he was about to wire in an outlet for a time clock or something similar. The maintenance chief and I were watching him, so he hollered down was the circuit off. Maintenance chief yelled back, yup. Next, huge amount of cuss words from the ladder guy. Circuit was NOT off. Mainteance chief looked at me and said, "next time he'll check."
>
>One day when I was around twelve years old, my farm dwelling parents
>had some visitors from the city. They brought their son, who was a few
>years older than me and who thought he walked on water and clearly
>looked down on this country farm boy.
>
>I decided to take him down a few notches by taking him out in the
>pasture to show him how to shoot gophers with my .22 rifle. After
>picking off a couple of the seed-corn eating rodents, I offered to
>show him how. He refused the offer, knowing he had no chance of
>matching my shooting.
>
>Undaunted, I led him over to an electric fence and explained that it
>was electrified and that he'd get a mild shock if he touched it. He
>did, and he got the mild shock. Then I told him that you could pee on
>it and the salt in urine made it almost totally non-conductive. I
>showed him by peeing on the fence. "See, I said, I only got a slight
>tingle, which actually, I said with a wink, wasn't all that
>unpleasant.
>
>I didn't tell him that if you listened carefully, you could hear when
>the device switched the power on and off. I'd been careful to modify
>my aim so as not to pee on the fence when it was hot.
>
>I don't remember the punishment I got from that, but I'll bet my mom
>and dad laughed about it later.

We had a somewhat similar experience with a kid from New York City
that some social group had given a month's vacation in the wilds of a
small New England town.

After listening to his bragging about New York and complaints about
our little town for a while a couple of the lads took him on a walk
through the woods. Of course the "woods" near town were all second
growth so not really the African Rain Forest, but perhaps to a city
boy they did seem to be a wilderness..

Anyway, in their walk they came across a colony of rabbits and
anywhere there are rabbits there are little round, brown objects on
the ground.

The New York Boy asks, what are those little brown things" and the
local "hillbilly" tells him that "those are "rabbit berries", try one
they are pretty tasty". So the "city slicker" eats a couple and says,
"they don't taste all that good" and the Local Yokel says, "Maybe they
weren't ripe, try a couple more". So the guy tries a couple more and
says that they still don't taste very good, and they go back to town.

Of course, the local lad tells his mate about the "rabbit berries" and
that guy tells his friend and in about 2-1/2 minutes every kid in town
knows the story if the rabbet berries,

I don't think that anyone ever told the City boy what "rabbit berries"
were but it took a lot of sting out of his stories. Sitting there
listening to his bragging and thinking, "This guy eats rabbet
berries?"

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 17 May 2023 16:27:25 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 6:35:21?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 May 2023 13:00:35 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:13:15?PM UTC-7, Tim R wrote:
>> >> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> >> > Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
>> >> > neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
>> >> > the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
>> >> > before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>> >> >
>> >> > John B.
>> >>
>> >> This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.
>> >>
>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM
>> >Aside from the fact that I'm an EE
>
>No, he's not. If he were, he would know that
>
>> and here in California neutral lines are grounded at the pole transformers
>
>is wrong
>
>> that was confirmed by my brother who is a licensed electrician.
>
>Must be the same brother who convinced him that aluminum oxide is flammable. What kind of idiot who claims to have done professional telephone wiring thinks they bring the neutral to earth ground at the pole? There's this thing called the National Electrical Code (NFPA 70) which has been enforced as law in california since the early 60's.
>
>> > This may not be the case in every state but I do not have a third wire ground and have never received a shock from the neutral to ground. However, taking precautions has never killed people.
>
>The NEC required grounded polarized outlets since 1962.
>https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70
>"Adopted in all 50 states, NFPA 70, National Electrical Code (NEC) is the benchmark for safe electrical design, installation, and inspection to protect people and property from electrical hazards."
>
>If his house was built before 1962 it may have two-wire outlets and a fuse box. For someone who claims to be such a brilliant and wealthy retired engineer, it's surprising he never took the initiative to have his house upgraded just as a safety precaution. After all, "taking precautions has never killed people."
>

According to freely available real estate records Tommy's house was
built in 1955. He, or his Mom apparently bought it used in 1978 for
$70,000.

>> My goodness! Now Tommy has become an Electrical Engineer... with out
>> ever attending school or even as Frank did, taking the PE examination.
>>
>> Will miracles never cease?
>
>He's been claiming that since he figured out how to post on the internet. Not that it makes it any more truthful....
>
>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tue, 16 May 2023 21:14:46 -0400, Radey Shouman
> <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Tue, 16 May 2023 17:13:12 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
>>> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>>>> Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
>>>>> neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
>>>>> the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
>>>>> before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>>This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.
>>>>
>>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM
>>>>
>>>
>>> (:-) I even remember a "Hooch", in this case similar to a tent
>>> platform (yes you can google it) with a galvanized roof that had
>>> voltage on the metal roof. It turned out that for some reason someone
>>> had connected the galvanized metal roof to the neutral, apparently
>>> believing that he had "grounded" it (:-)
>>
>>Maybe they just wanted to keep cats off.
>
> I don't think so (:-) the guys living in the "hooch" got tired of
> getting shocked I guess and call it in as a discrepancy to the
> electric shop where I was working at the time.
>
> But re cats on the roof... electricity doesn't work that way. You can
> sit on a 4,000 volt transmission line with no problems at all.... as
> long as you don't touch anything but the line (:-) So cats jumping up
> on the roof probably wouldn't feel a thing (:-)

No, the answer is "cat on a hot tin roof".

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 5/16/2023 9:36 PM, John B. wrote:
>> But re cats on the roof... electricity doesn't work that way. You
>> can
>> sit on a 4,000 volt transmission line with no problems at all.... as
>> long as you don't touch anything but the line (:-) So cats jumping up
>> on the roof probably wouldn't feel a thing (:-)
>
> At one place we lived for a while long ago, we had problems with large
> neighborhood dogs allowed to run free at night. It was not unusual for
> them to overturn our garbage cans. Eventually I ran a hot line to the
> garbage cans. I knew there was some risk, so I plugged it in last
> thing at night and unplugged first thing in the morning.
>
> Within a day or two we were awakened by a dog yelping loudly and
> running away. The problem never returned.

I don't suppose you put a "Danger, high voltage" sign up? Dogs can't read.

I can't help imagining a neighbor. I'll call her Mrs. White, after a
neighbor I had when young. I picture her grey haired, nearly as old as
you are now, but since they put that new fangled heart pacemaker in she
can't sleep through the dawn. She takes a walk past your house, just to
get some air, and notices a bit of trash in your driveway. Being a
sweet old bird, she picks it up to throw it in your bin.

Mrs. White:
(thinks) Oh my Jesus! I've shook hands with the Devil and he won't let go!
(says) RRRRrrRRRrrrRRRrrrRRrRrRrrrr

I know, I know. Those neighbors were all no account white trash that
would no more take the notion of walking anywhere in a morning with a
perfectly good black pickup in the driveway than they would of flapping
their arms to fly to the moon. And she had it coming. You would never
step in *her* driveway, one of those crackers might shoot you. F*ck
them if they can't take a 120V joke.

It's just a thought experiment. Suppose Mrs. White *dies*? How many
months of prison time do you supppose that would merit?

Just about the wimpiest electric fence transformer you can buy is more
than enough to impress any but the toughest of dogs. I put one up once,
but it was to keep the dogs in, not out. Worked great.

On Wed, 17 May 2023 21:45:15 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:

>John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 16 May 2023 21:14:46 -0400, Radey Shouman
>> <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 16 May 2023 17:13:12 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
>>>> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
>>>>>> neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
>>>>>> the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
>>>>>> before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>
>>>>>This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.
>>>>>
>>>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (:-) I even remember a "Hooch", in this case similar to a tent
>>>> platform (yes you can google it) with a galvanized roof that had
>>>> voltage on the metal roof. It turned out that for some reason someone
>>>> had connected the galvanized metal roof to the neutral, apparently
>>>> believing that he had "grounded" it (:-)
>>>
>>>Maybe they just wanted to keep cats off.
>>
>> I don't think so (:-) the guys living in the "hooch" got tired of
>> getting shocked I guess and call it in as a discrepancy to the
>> electric shop where I was working at the time.
>>
>> But re cats on the roof... electricity doesn't work that way. You can
>> sit on a 4,000 volt transmission line with no problems at all.... as
>> long as you don't touch anything but the line (:-) So cats jumping up
>> on the roof probably wouldn't feel a thing (:-)
>
>No, the answer is "cat on a hot tin roof".

Well... except that the "cat on a hot tin roof" was a women referred
to as "Maggy the Cat" (:-) and "on a hot tin roof" apparently
referenced to her sexual activities (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/17/2023 9:07 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 17 May 2023 21:45:15 -0400, Radey Shouman
> <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Tue, 16 May 2023 21:14:46 -0400, Radey Shouman
>>> <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 16 May 2023 17:13:12 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
>>>>> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
>>>>>>> neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
>>>>>>> the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
>>>>>>> before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (:-) I even remember a "Hooch", in this case similar to a tent
>>>>> platform (yes you can google it) with a galvanized roof that had
>>>>> voltage on the metal roof. It turned out that for some reason someone
>>>>> had connected the galvanized metal roof to the neutral, apparently
>>>>> believing that he had "grounded" it (:-)
>>>>
>>>> Maybe they just wanted to keep cats off.
>>>
>>> I don't think so (:-) the guys living in the "hooch" got tired of
>>> getting shocked I guess and call it in as a discrepancy to the
>>> electric shop where I was working at the time.
>>>
>>> But re cats on the roof... electricity doesn't work that way. You can
>>> sit on a 4,000 volt transmission line with no problems at all.... as
>>> long as you don't touch anything but the line (:-) So cats jumping up
>>> on the roof probably wouldn't feel a thing (:-)
>>
>> No, the answer is "cat on a hot tin roof".
>
> Well... except that the "cat on a hot tin roof" was a women referred
> to as "Maggy the Cat" (:-) and "on a hot tin roof" apparently
> referenced to her sexual activities (:-)
>

And speaking of polarity, she was hot.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 9:18:08 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 17 May 2023 13:56:16 -0400, Catrike Rider
> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 16 May 2023 19:01:30 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
> ><timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:51:17?PM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:
> >>> I did get a nice tingle while connecting computer cables back in the manufacturing plant. The office network was that old twin-ax stuff. The computer was plugged into an outlet wired backwards, resulting in a hot chassis, but the admin person had no ground nearby and never got shocked. So the shield on the cable connected to the chassis was also hot, but when I tried connecting to the next cable (barrel connector between the two male cable ends I think, it's been a while) I had hot in one hand and ground in the other.
> >>
> >>Better story from that same plant. Maintenance guy was up on a ladder, guy was a yankee in a rural Alabama plant so didn't quite fit in, anyway he was about to wire in an outlet for a time clock or something similar. The maintenance chief and I were watching him, so he hollered down was the circuit off. Maintenance chief yelled back, yup. Next, huge amount of cuss words from the ladder guy. Circuit was NOT off. Mainteance chief looked at me and said, "next time he'll check."
> >
> >One day when I was around twelve years old, my farm dwelling parents
> >had some visitors from the city. They brought their son, who was a few
> >years older than me and who thought he walked on water and clearly
> >looked down on this country farm boy.
> >
> >I decided to take him down a few notches by taking him out in the
> >pasture to show him how to shoot gophers with my .22 rifle. After
> >picking off a couple of the seed-corn eating rodents, I offered to
> >show him how. He refused the offer, knowing he had no chance of
> >matching my shooting.
> >
> >Undaunted, I led him over to an electric fence and explained that it
> >was electrified and that he'd get a mild shock if he touched it. He
> >did, and he got the mild shock. Then I told him that you could pee on
> >it and the salt in urine made it almost totally non-conductive. I
> >showed him by peeing on the fence. "See, I said, I only got a slight
> >tingle, which actually, I said with a wink, wasn't all that
> >unpleasant.
> >
> >I didn't tell him that if you listened carefully, you could hear when
> >the device switched the power on and off. I'd been careful to modify
> >my aim so as not to pee on the fence when it was hot.
> >
> >I don't remember the punishment I got from that, but I'll bet my mom
> >and dad laughed about it later.
> We had a somewhat similar experience with a kid from New York City
> that some social group had given a month's vacation in the wilds of a
> small New England town.
>
> After listening to his bragging about New York and complaints about
> our little town for a while a couple of the lads took him on a walk
> through the woods. Of course the "woods" near town were all second
> growth so not really the African Rain Forest, but perhaps to a city
> boy they did seem to be a wilderness..
>
> Anyway, in their walk they came across a colony of rabbits and
> anywhere there are rabbits there are little round, brown objects on
> the ground.
>
> The New York Boy asks, what are those little brown things" and the
> local "hillbilly" tells him that "those are "rabbit berries", try one
> they are pretty tasty". So the "city slicker" eats a couple and says,
> "they don't taste all that good" and the Local Yokel says, "Maybe they
> weren't ripe, try a couple more". So the guy tries a couple more and
> says that they still don't taste very good, and they go back to town.
>
> Of course, the local lad tells his mate about the "rabbit berries" and
> that guy tells his friend and in about 2-1/2 minutes every kid in town
> knows the story if the rabbet berries,
>
> I don't think that anyone ever told the City boy what "rabbit berries"
> were but it took a lot of sting out of his stories. Sitting there
> listening to his bragging and thinking, "This guy eats rabbet
> berries?"

I've read that rabbits eat them. Apparently they're nutritious. Maybe it's just
a matter of taste?

Here you are: https://bunnylady.com/why-do-rabbits-eat-their-own-poop/#:~:text=Rabbits%20eat%20their%20own%20poop%20because%20it%20helps%20them%20obtain,rabbits%20must%20eat%20their%20cecotropes.

Not that I'm interested in tasting them!

- Frank Krygowski