On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 17:28:15 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 7:08:46?p.m. UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 09:02:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:31:51?AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 11:23:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 4/28/2023 2:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >> > > I received a
>> >> > > call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
>> >> > > to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
>> >> > > appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
>> >> > > <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
>> >> > > ... the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
>> >> > > the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
>> >> > > the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > This is NOT an isolated case.
>> >> >
>> >> >On one bike tour, my wife, a cycling friend and I stayed overnight at a
>> >> >different friend's house. After a rainy riding day, we were relaxing on
>> >> >their screened-in porch when my wife touched a metal outlet cover and
>> >> >got a slight shock. I felt nothing, then realized I was wearing shoes
>> >> >while she had her bare feet on the concrete floor. Somehow that metal
>> >> >cover was electrically hot.
>> >> >
>> >> >In a much later visit, I worked on the problem. It was a real puzzle, as
>> >> >in "why would the breaker not trip?" Eventually I found where a hot wire
>> >> >touching the metal outlet box, PLUS a disconnected ground wire in a
>> >> >basement ceiling fixture between that circuit and the breaker box.
>> >> >
>> >> >I later returned with a tester similar to yours and found some outlets
>> >> >with wires reversed, plus other anomalies beyond my understanding. I
>> >> >recommended they hire an electrician to sort it out, but I don't know if
>> >> >they ever did.
>> >> >
>> >> >I was surprised by this because the owners bought the house only a few
>> >> >years prior from the original owner, whose business was home
>> >> >construction. I'd have thought everything in his own home would have
>> >> >been done perfectly.
>> >> As always, Krygowski can make up a personal experience antedote for
>> >> every occasion.
>> >
>> >Why do you suppose no one else has experiences like Krygowski? Years ago California made it law that all houses have three prong outlets., There was no way that the older houses could run the separate ground cable but these outlets also had the large and small connectors. AC lines have a an active and a neutral line so when you plug them in you can only go in one way and you don't need a ground because the neutral line effectively acts as a ground. You could ask Liebermann since he was so eager to show us his EE diploma and he did work in analog electronics so he should have known everything about this but he is probably unaware that devices that have the old fashion two small prong plugs have their cases insulated from the power. Layer after layer of stupidity about absolutely everything.
>> Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
>> neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
>> the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
>> before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>>
>> As for California? Who knows what they will do. I read in the news the
>> other day that they are talking about giving millions to the black
>> people because they used to be slaves, a hundred years ago....
>> although slavery was never legal in California.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>What gets me is that black people in Africa, and Amerindians in North America, were enslaving others long before the coming of Europeans to those areas.
>
>Cheers

True, or at least from what I read, "slaving ships" from the Americas
actually purchased slaves from local African (read Black) Rulers.

And, again from what I read, local rulers, like Shaka Zulu, or the
Metabele Kings, were far more savage then the American slave owners.
Until, that is, until they ran afoul of an even more savage group.....
the White Man (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 4/28/2023 7:08 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 09:02:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:31:51?AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 11:23:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/28/2023 2:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>> I received a
>>>>> call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
>>>>> to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
>>>>> appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
>>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
>>>>> ... the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
>>>>> the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
>>>>> the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is NOT an isolated case.
>>>>
>>>> On one bike tour, my wife, a cycling friend and I stayed overnight at a
>>>> different friend's house. After a rainy riding day, we were relaxing on
>>>> their screened-in porch when my wife touched a metal outlet cover and
>>>> got a slight shock. I felt nothing, then realized I was wearing shoes
>>>> while she had her bare feet on the concrete floor. Somehow that metal
>>>> cover was electrically hot.
>>>>
>>>> In a much later visit, I worked on the problem. It was a real puzzle, as
>>>> in "why would the breaker not trip?" Eventually I found where a hot wire
>>>> touching the metal outlet box, PLUS a disconnected ground wire in a
>>>> basement ceiling fixture between that circuit and the breaker box.
>>>>
>>>> I later returned with a tester similar to yours and found some outlets
>>>> with wires reversed, plus other anomalies beyond my understanding. I
>>>> recommended they hire an electrician to sort it out, but I don't know if
>>>> they ever did.
>>>>
>>>> I was surprised by this because the owners bought the house only a few
>>>> years prior from the original owner, whose business was home
>>>> construction. I'd have thought everything in his own home would have
>>>> been done perfectly.
>>> As always, Krygowski can make up a personal experience antedote for
>>> every occasion.
>>
>> Why do you suppose no one else has experiences like Krygowski? Years ago California made it law that all houses have three prong outlets., There was no way that the older houses could run the separate ground cable but these outlets also had the large and small connectors. AC lines have a an active and a neutral line so when you plug them in you can only go in one way and you don't need a ground because the neutral line effectively acts as a ground. You could ask Liebermann since he was so eager to show us his EE diploma and he did work in analog electronics so he should have known everything about this but he is probably unaware that devices that have the old fashion two small prong plugs have their cases insulated from the power. Layer after layer of stupidity about absolutely everything.
>
> Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
> neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
> the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
> before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>
> As for California? Who knows what they will do. I read in the news the
> other day that they are talking about giving millions to the black
> people because they used to be slaves, a hundred years ago....
> although slavery was never legal in California.
>

Uh, I'll wait until somebody pays me, descendant of the
Adriatic coast Italians who suffered a few hundred years of
Turk raids and slavery.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 21:03:47 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/28/2023 7:08 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 09:02:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:31:51?AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 11:23:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/28/2023 2:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>>> I received a
>>>>>> call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
>>>>>> to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
>>>>>> appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
>>>>>> ... the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
>>>>>> the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
>>>>>> the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is NOT an isolated case.
>>>>>
>>>>> On one bike tour, my wife, a cycling friend and I stayed overnight at a
>>>>> different friend's house. After a rainy riding day, we were relaxing on
>>>>> their screened-in porch when my wife touched a metal outlet cover and
>>>>> got a slight shock. I felt nothing, then realized I was wearing shoes
>>>>> while she had her bare feet on the concrete floor. Somehow that metal
>>>>> cover was electrically hot.
>>>>>
>>>>> In a much later visit, I worked on the problem. It was a real puzzle, as
>>>>> in "why would the breaker not trip?" Eventually I found where a hot wire
>>>>> touching the metal outlet box, PLUS a disconnected ground wire in a
>>>>> basement ceiling fixture between that circuit and the breaker box.
>>>>>
>>>>> I later returned with a tester similar to yours and found some outlets
>>>>> with wires reversed, plus other anomalies beyond my understanding. I
>>>>> recommended they hire an electrician to sort it out, but I don't know if
>>>>> they ever did.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was surprised by this because the owners bought the house only a few
>>>>> years prior from the original owner, whose business was home
>>>>> construction. I'd have thought everything in his own home would have
>>>>> been done perfectly.
>>>> As always, Krygowski can make up a personal experience antedote for
>>>> every occasion.
>>>
>>> Why do you suppose no one else has experiences like Krygowski? Years ago California made it law that all houses have three prong outlets., There was no way that the older houses could run the separate ground cable but these outlets also had the large and small connectors. AC lines have a an active and a neutral line so when you plug them in you can only go in one way and you don't need a ground because the neutral line effectively acts as a ground. You could ask Liebermann since he was so eager to show us his EE diploma and he did work in analog electronics so he should have known everything about this but he is probably unaware that devices that have the old fashion two small prong plugs have their cases insulated from the power. Layer after layer of stupidity about absolutely everything.
>>
>> Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
>> neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
>> the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
>> before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>>
>> As for California? Who knows what they will do. I read in the news the
>> other day that they are talking about giving millions to the black
>> people because they used to be slaves, a hundred years ago....
>> although slavery was never legal in California.
>>
>
>Uh, I'll wait until somebody pays me, descendant of the
>Adriatic coast Italians who suffered a few hundred years of
>Turk raids and slavery.

Don't, for God's Sake, hold your breath.

I think that, probably every race and color can point to some period
in history when they didn't have it so well. The native people in the
U.S. were overcome by the (mostly) White people, the Anglo-Saxons,
i,e, White people, were overcome by the French, whom later overcame
the N. Africans. The Italian (citify states) were overcome by about
everyone, including each other. The Roman Church dominated the
politics of most of Europe at one time and they had two Pope for a
while.

But, I read that the U.S. is running out of money and has to borrow
some more, so the Irish and the Italians will have to wait their turn.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 09:02:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Years ago California made it law that all houses have three prong outlets.,

Wrong. Code requirements are set by cities and counties and follow
NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) guidelines. Cities and
counties in California adopt such codes that typically included a
requirement that all *NEW* construction use 3 wire grounded outlets.
There is no requirement to upgrade older ungrounded 2 wire outlets.
However, if one applies for a remodeling or construction permit from
the county, new outlets are just one of a long list of required
upgrades. Read all about it online at:

"Free online access to the NEC® and other electrical standards"
<https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/About-the-NEC/Free-online-access-to-the-NEC-and-other-electrical-standards>

>There was no way that the older houses could run the separate
>ground cable but these outlets also had the large and small
>connectors.

There are several NEC approved ways to convert from 2 wire ungrounded
to 3 wire grounded:

<https://www.google.com/search?q=Replace+2+wire+ungrounded+outlet+with+3+wire>
<https://duckduckgo.com/?va=e&t=he&q=Replace+2+wire+ungrounded+outlet+with+3+wire>

None of the methods listed require removing the existing 2 wires.
Simply adding a green protective ground wire is sufficient.

>AC lines have a an active and a neutral line so when you plug
>them in you can only go in one way and you don't need a ground
>because the neutral line effectively acts as a ground.

Sigh. Under normal circumstances, the protective ground wire does
nothing. It is connected to the white neutral wire at only one place,
usually at the neutral bus bar in the circuit break panel. Where the
protective ground wire is important is to provide a path to ground in
the event of a wiring fault.

"System and Equipment Grounding Safety"
<https://eepower.com/technical-articles/system-and-equipment-grounding-safety/#>
"Grounding is used to provide a safe path for a fault current to
flow."

Without a protective ground, a break in a neutral wire will put the
metal case of whatever equipment you're using at line potential. If
you touch the case and ground simultaneously, you will receive a well
deserved electrocution. If there is a wire between the equipment case
and the ground wire system of the house, the current that would have
electrocuted you goes through the wire instead of you, usually
tripping the circuit breaker. The life a protective ground wire might
save could easily be yours.

>You could ask Liebermann since he was so eager to show us his EE
>diploma

Nice of you to mention that:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/diploma-jeffl.jpg>
Of course, that diploma does little to demonstrate expertise in all
things electrical. I had a few classes in safety, motors, industrial
electrical systems, transmission lines and speed control.

>and he did work in analog electronics so he should have known
>everything about this but he is probably unaware that devices that
>have the old fashion two small prong plugs have their cases insulated
>from the power. Layer after layer of stupidity about absolutely everything.

With a polarized 2 wire receptacle that works assuming everything else
is wired correctly and nothing has failed. For example, one of the
power line filter bypass capacitors between both wires to case ground
failed in an old HP signal generator (HP606A) that I was trying to
fix. The power cable was 3 wire but some fool had broken off the
ground pin so that they could insert the plug into a 2 wire ungrounded
receptacle. When I grounded my oscilloscope probe to the case, the
power cord started to smoke and eventually tripped the circuit breaker
on my workbench. If I had placed myself between the signal generator
case and the oscilloscope case, I would have been fried instead of the
scope probe.

As usual, everything you wrote was either half wrong or totally wrong.
According to Zillow, your house was built in 1955, when 2 wire
ungrounded outlets were still used. Is your house full of 2 wire
ungrounded outlets? If so, why are you still alive?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 5:28:16 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 7:08:46 p.m. UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 09:02:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:31:51?AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > >> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 11:23:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >On 4/28/2023 2:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > >> > > I received a
> > >> > > call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
> > >> > > to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
> > >> > > appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
> > >> > > <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
> > >> > > ... the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
> > >> > > the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
> > >> > > the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > This is NOT an isolated case.
> > >> >
> > >> >On one bike tour, my wife, a cycling friend and I stayed overnight at a
> > >> >different friend's house. After a rainy riding day, we were relaxing on
> > >> >their screened-in porch when my wife touched a metal outlet cover and
> > >> >got a slight shock. I felt nothing, then realized I was wearing shoes
> > >> >while she had her bare feet on the concrete floor. Somehow that metal
> > >> >cover was electrically hot.
> > >> >
> > >> >In a much later visit, I worked on the problem. It was a real puzzle, as
> > >> >in "why would the breaker not trip?" Eventually I found where a hot wire
> > >> >touching the metal outlet box, PLUS a disconnected ground wire in a
> > >> >basement ceiling fixture between that circuit and the breaker box.
> > >> >
> > >> >I later returned with a tester similar to yours and found some outlets
> > >> >with wires reversed, plus other anomalies beyond my understanding. I
> > >> >recommended they hire an electrician to sort it out, but I don't know if
> > >> >they ever did.
> > >> >
> > >> >I was surprised by this because the owners bought the house only a few
> > >> >years prior from the original owner, whose business was home
> > >> >construction. I'd have thought everything in his own home would have
> > >> >been done perfectly.
> > >> As always, Krygowski can make up a personal experience antedote for
> > >> every occasion.
> > >
> > >Why do you suppose no one else has experiences like Krygowski? Years ago California made it law that all houses have three prong outlets., There was no way that the older houses could run the separate ground cable but these outlets also had the large and small connectors. AC lines have a an active and a neutral line so when you plug them in you can only go in one way and you don't need a ground because the neutral line effectively acts as a ground. You could ask Liebermann since he was so eager to show us his EE diploma and he did work in analog electronics so he should have known everything about this but he is probably unaware that devices that have the old fashion two small prong plugs have their cases insulated from the power. Layer after layer of stupidity about absolutely everything.
> > Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
> > neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
> > the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
> > before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
> >
> > As for California? Who knows what they will do. I read in the news the
> > other day that they are talking about giving millions to the black
> > people because they used to be slaves, a hundred years ago....
> > although slavery was never legal in California.
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John B.
> What gets me is that black people in Africa, and Amerindians in North America, were enslaving others long before the coming of Europeans to those areas.
>
> Cheers
Every race has practiced slavery. That is historical fact.

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 08:02:18 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 4/28/2023 7:19 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:31:21???AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:

> >> My main road bike, which is a ~1986 Schwinn Paramount made
> >> from Columbus SLX tubing. I believe it was made in Waterford,
> >> WI. It still has its original Campy low-flange, loose-bearing
> >> hubs, but now with Mavic Open Sport rims and the original
> >> Campy sidepull caliper brakes. The original Campy crankset
> >> broke during a sprint and gave me some bruises and roadrash,
> >> so I'm now using a "no-name brand" compact crankset, a
> >> 9-speed cassette and the Campy friction shifters on the down
> >> tube.

> > Please pardon my brain flatulence, but how could I have
> > forgotten that I had to replace the original Campy low-flange
> > hubs with Shimano Ultegra years ago because the bearing races
> > on the old Campy hubs became brinelled?
>
> Unlikely to have been 'brinelled'. More probably the lubricant
> became dessicated and with water/dirt/crud added suffered
> mechanical erosion.
>
> http://i.stack.imgur.com/CiTzl.jpg
>
> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aE5Dci8M8a8/SJYuTuE7ooI/AAAAAAAAANs/_9y-M492gYY/s400/IMG_2277.JPG
>
> https://www.restoration.bike/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/damaged-hub-cone-1.jpg

Yes, my understanding is that brinelling is something that could
occur in old headset races because the bearings were often in
about the same location and over time created individual indents.
Not directly wear, at least not friction wear-more of an impact
thing.

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

On 4/29/2023 11:14 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 08:02:18 -0500,
> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 4/28/2023 7:19 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:31:21???AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
>
>>>> My main road bike, which is a ~1986 Schwinn Paramount made
>>>> from Columbus SLX tubing. I believe it was made in Waterford,
>>>> WI. It still has its original Campy low-flange, loose-bearing
>>>> hubs, but now with Mavic Open Sport rims and the original
>>>> Campy sidepull caliper brakes. The original Campy crankset
>>>> broke during a sprint and gave me some bruises and roadrash,
>>>> so I'm now using a "no-name brand" compact crankset, a
>>>> 9-speed cassette and the Campy friction shifters on the down
>>>> tube.
>
>>> Please pardon my brain flatulence, but how could I have
>>> forgotten that I had to replace the original Campy low-flange
>>> hubs with Shimano Ultegra years ago because the bearing races
>>> on the old Campy hubs became brinelled?
>>
>> Unlikely to have been 'brinelled'. More probably the lubricant
>> became dessicated and with water/dirt/crud added suffered
>> mechanical erosion.
>>
>> http://i.stack.imgur.com/CiTzl.jpg
>>
>> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aE5Dci8M8a8/SJYuTuE7ooI/AAAAAAAAANs/_9y-M492gYY/s400/IMG_2277.JPG
>>
>> https://www.restoration.bike/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/damaged-hub-cone-1.jpg
>
> Yes, my understanding is that brinelling is something that could
> occur in old headset races because the bearings were often in
> about the same location and over time created individual indents.
> Not directly wear, at least not friction wear-more of an impact
> thing.

See https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html

(And I think Jobst's explanation is more often correct despite John
Allen's objections. IMO, John's examples are not impossible, but are not
typical.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/29/2023 10:14 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 08:02:18 -0500,
> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 4/28/2023 7:19 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:31:21???AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
>
>>>> My main road bike, which is a ~1986 Schwinn Paramount made
>>>> from Columbus SLX tubing. I believe it was made in Waterford,
>>>> WI. It still has its original Campy low-flange, loose-bearing
>>>> hubs, but now with Mavic Open Sport rims and the original
>>>> Campy sidepull caliper brakes. The original Campy crankset
>>>> broke during a sprint and gave me some bruises and roadrash,
>>>> so I'm now using a "no-name brand" compact crankset, a
>>>> 9-speed cassette and the Campy friction shifters on the down
>>>> tube.
>
>>> Please pardon my brain flatulence, but how could I have
>>> forgotten that I had to replace the original Campy low-flange
>>> hubs with Shimano Ultegra years ago because the bearing races
>>> on the old Campy hubs became brinelled?
>>
>> Unlikely to have been 'brinelled'. More probably the lubricant
>> became dessicated and with water/dirt/crud added suffered
>> mechanical erosion.
>>
>> http://i.stack.imgur.com/CiTzl.jpg
>>
>> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aE5Dci8M8a8/SJYuTuE7ooI/AAAAAAAAANs/_9y-M492gYY/s400/IMG_2277.JPG
>>
>> https://www.restoration.bike/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/damaged-hub-cone-1.jpg
>
> Yes, my understanding is that brinelling is something that could
> occur in old headset races because the bearings were often in
> about the same location and over time created individual indents.
> Not directly wear, at least not friction wear-more of an impact
> thing.
>

Right. There is much misunderstanding. A brinell disruption
displaces material by impact:

https://www.manufacturingguide.com/sites/default/files/styles/illustration/public/illustrations/brinell_testing_1437.png?itok=7dezTfKA

And I also believed that was the process which degraded
headsets. Mr Brandt, however,made a better analysis and
concluded that the failure mode was momentary welding, not
impact disruption.

In our FAQ , Section 8f.13 (June 2004) Mr Brandt responds to
an RBT contributor who lamented a 'brinelled headset' and
warned that it could be dangerous or deadly:

He wrote:

I disagree on two points. First, because you use the term
"Brinell" that conveys a notion as incorrect as the phrase
"my chain stretched from climbing steep hills" and second,
because there is no possibility of injury or damage from
"indexed" steering head bearings. The effect is mostly
perception of failure from the rattling noise and clunky
feel while braking lightly. It has such a small effect that
it is imperceptible when riding no-hands unless the bearing
clearance has been adjusted in the straight ahead position.
Then the bearing will bind off center."

Damage to head bearings seems to be twofold in this case
because properly adjusted steering can only become looser
from dimples, dimples that cannot immobilize steering.
Therefore, the head adjustment was too tight. However,
dimpling is not caused by impact, but rather by lubrication
failure that occurs while riding straight ahead, giving the
steering a preferred home position. This occurs more easily
with a correctly adjusted bearing than with a loose one that
rattles and clunks. Rattling replenishes lubricant between
balls and races, something that would otherwise not not
occur. Off road bicycles suffer less from this malady than
road bicycles because it occurs primarily during long
straight descents that on which no
steering motions, that might replenish lubricant, are made.

If you believe it comes from hammering the balls into the
races, you might try to cause some dimples by hammering on
the underside of the fork crown of a clunker bike of your
choice. Those who hammered cotters on steel cranks will
recall no dimples on the spindle, even though it has a far
smaller diameter than the head bearing and the blows were
more severe and direct, supported by no more than one or
two balls.

Bearing balls make metal-to-metal contact only under
fretting loads (microscopic oscillations) while the races
are is not rotating. Any perceptible steering motion will
replenish lubricant from the oily meniscus surrounding each
ball contact patch. Peering over the bars at the front hub
while coasting down a road at 20+ mph you will notice the
fork ends vibrating fore and aft. This motion does not
arise at the fork end, but at the fork crown, where it bends
the steer tube. Both head bearings rotate in fretting motion
crosswise to the normal plane of rotation as the steer tube
bends. Dimples form in the forward and rearward quadrant of
both upper and lower bearings from
this fretting. That they also form in the upper bearing
shows they are not directly load related.

Lubrication failure from fretting causes metal to metal
contact that forms microscopic welds between balls and
races. These welds repeatedly tear material from the softer
of the two causing elliptical milky dimples in both races.
Were these Brinelling marks (embossed through force), they
would be shiny and smooth and primarily on the
inner race of the bearing. Various testimonials for the
durability of one bearing over another are more likely an
indication of lubrication than the design of the bearing.
Ball bearings with separate cups and cones have been used as
head bearings longer than they should considering their poor
performance.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 29 Apr 2023 10:41:09 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 4/29/2023 10:14 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
> > On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 08:02:18 -0500,
> > AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >> On 4/28/2023 7:19 AM, William Crowell wrote:

> >>> Please pardon my brain flatulence, but how could I have
> >>> forgotten that I had to replace the original Campy
> >>> low-flange hubs with Shimano Ultegra years ago because the
> >>> bearing races on the old Campy hubs became brinelled?
> >>
> >> Unlikely to have been 'brinelled'. More probably the
> >> lubricant became dessicated and with water/dirt/crud added
> >> suffered mechanical erosion.
> >>
> >> http://i.stack.imgur.com/CiTzl.jpg

> > Yes, my understanding is that brinelling is something that
> > could occur in old headset races because the bearings were
> > often in about the same location and over time created
> > individual indents. Not directly wear, at least not friction
> > wear-more of an impact thing.
>
> Right. There is much misunderstanding. A brinell disruption
> displaces material by impact:
>
> https://www.manufacturingguide.com/sites/default/files/styles/illustration/public/illustrations/brinell_testing_1437.png?itok=7dezTfKA
>
> And I also believed that was the process which degraded
> headsets. Mr Brandt, however,made a better analysis and
> concluded that the failure mode was momentary welding, not
> impact disruption.
>
> In our FAQ , Section 8f.13 (June 2004) Mr Brandt responds to an
> RBT contributor who lamented a 'brinelled headset' and warned
> that it could be dangerous or deadly:
>
> He wrote:
>
> I disagree on two points. First, because you use the term
> "Brinell" that conveys a notion as incorrect as the phrase
> "my chain stretched from climbing steep hills" and second,
> because there is no possibility of injury or damage from
> "indexed" steering head bearings. The effect is mostly
> perception of failure from the rattling noise and clunky
> feel while braking lightly. It has such a small effect that
> it is imperceptible when riding no-hands unless the bearing
> clearance has been adjusted in the straight ahead position.
> Then the bearing will bind off center."
>
> Damage to head bearings seems to be twofold in this case
> because properly adjusted steering can only become looser
> from dimples, dimples that cannot immobilize steering.
> Therefore, the head adjustment was too tight. However,
> dimpling is not caused by impact, but rather by lubrication
> failure that occurs while riding straight ahead, giving the
> steering a preferred home position. This occurs more easily
> with a correctly adjusted bearing than with a loose one that
> rattles and clunks. Rattling replenishes lubricant between
> balls and races, something that would otherwise not not
> occur. Off road bicycles suffer less from this malady than
> road bicycles because it occurs primarily during long
> straight descents that on which no
> steering motions, that might replenish lubricant, are made.
>
> If you believe it comes from hammering the balls into the
> races, you might try to cause some dimples by hammering on
> the underside of the fork crown of a clunker bike of your
> choice. Those who hammered cotters on steel cranks will
> recall no dimples on the spindle, even though it has a far
> smaller diameter than the head bearing and the blows were
> more severe and direct, supported by no more than one or
> two balls.
>
> Bearing balls make metal-to-metal contact only under
> fretting loads (microscopic oscillations) while the races
> are is not rotating. Any perceptible steering motion will
> replenish lubricant from the oily meniscus surrounding each
> ball contact patch. Peering over the bars at the front hub
> while coasting down a road at 20+ mph you will notice the
> fork ends vibrating fore and aft. This motion does not
> arise at the fork end, but at the fork crown, where it bends
> the steer tube. Both head bearings rotate in fretting motion
> crosswise to the normal plane of rotation as the steer tube
> bends. Dimples form in the forward and rearward quadrant of
> both upper and lower bearings from
> this fretting. That they also form in the upper bearing
> shows they are not directly load related.
>
> Lubrication failure from fretting causes metal to metal
> contact that forms microscopic welds between balls and
> races. These welds repeatedly tear material from the softer
> of the two causing elliptical milky dimples in both races.
> Were these Brinelling marks (embossed through force), they
> would be shiny and smooth and primarily on the
> inner race of the bearing. Various testimonials for the
> durability of one bearing over another are more likely an
> indication of lubrication than the design of the bearing.
> Ball bearings with separate cups and cones have been used as
> head bearings longer than they should considering their poor
> performance.

Fascinating. THanks also to Frank for pointing this out.

So if it is fretting, it really is more of friction type wear
after all, but I'm not sure how the purported welding mechanism
would be classified.

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

On 4/29/2023 10:59 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Apr 2023 10:41:09 -0500,
> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 4/29/2023 10:14 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
>>> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 08:02:18 -0500,
>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>> On 4/28/2023 7:19 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>
>>>>> Please pardon my brain flatulence, but how could I have
>>>>> forgotten that I had to replace the original Campy
>>>>> low-flange hubs with Shimano Ultegra years ago because the
>>>>> bearing races on the old Campy hubs became brinelled?
>>>>
>>>> Unlikely to have been 'brinelled'. More probably the
>>>> lubricant became dessicated and with water/dirt/crud added
>>>> suffered mechanical erosion.
>>>>
>>>> http://i.stack.imgur.com/CiTzl.jpg
>
>>> Yes, my understanding is that brinelling is something that
>>> could occur in old headset races because the bearings were
>>> often in about the same location and over time created
>>> individual indents. Not directly wear, at least not friction
>>> wear-more of an impact thing.
>>
>> Right. There is much misunderstanding. A brinell disruption
>> displaces material by impact:
>>
>> https://www.manufacturingguide.com/sites/default/files/styles/illustration/public/illustrations/brinell_testing_1437.png?itok=7dezTfKA
>>
>> And I also believed that was the process which degraded
>> headsets. Mr Brandt, however,made a better analysis and
>> concluded that the failure mode was momentary welding, not
>> impact disruption.
>>
>> In our FAQ , Section 8f.13 (June 2004) Mr Brandt responds to an
>> RBT contributor who lamented a 'brinelled headset' and warned
>> that it could be dangerous or deadly:
>>
>> He wrote:
>>
>> I disagree on two points. First, because you use the term
>> "Brinell" that conveys a notion as incorrect as the phrase
>> "my chain stretched from climbing steep hills" and second,
>> because there is no possibility of injury or damage from
>> "indexed" steering head bearings. The effect is mostly
>> perception of failure from the rattling noise and clunky
>> feel while braking lightly. It has such a small effect that
>> it is imperceptible when riding no-hands unless the bearing
>> clearance has been adjusted in the straight ahead position.
>> Then the bearing will bind off center."
>>
>> Damage to head bearings seems to be twofold in this case
>> because properly adjusted steering can only become looser
>> from dimples, dimples that cannot immobilize steering.
>> Therefore, the head adjustment was too tight. However,
>> dimpling is not caused by impact, but rather by lubrication
>> failure that occurs while riding straight ahead, giving the
>> steering a preferred home position. This occurs more easily
>> with a correctly adjusted bearing than with a loose one that
>> rattles and clunks. Rattling replenishes lubricant between
>> balls and races, something that would otherwise not not
>> occur. Off road bicycles suffer less from this malady than
>> road bicycles because it occurs primarily during long
>> straight descents that on which no
>> steering motions, that might replenish lubricant, are made.
>>
>> If you believe it comes from hammering the balls into the
>> races, you might try to cause some dimples by hammering on
>> the underside of the fork crown of a clunker bike of your
>> choice. Those who hammered cotters on steel cranks will
>> recall no dimples on the spindle, even though it has a far
>> smaller diameter than the head bearing and the blows were
>> more severe and direct, supported by no more than one or
>> two balls.
>>
>> Bearing balls make metal-to-metal contact only under
>> fretting loads (microscopic oscillations) while the races
>> are is not rotating. Any perceptible steering motion will
>> replenish lubricant from the oily meniscus surrounding each
>> ball contact patch. Peering over the bars at the front hub
>> while coasting down a road at 20+ mph you will notice the
>> fork ends vibrating fore and aft. This motion does not
>> arise at the fork end, but at the fork crown, where it bends
>> the steer tube. Both head bearings rotate in fretting motion
>> crosswise to the normal plane of rotation as the steer tube
>> bends. Dimples form in the forward and rearward quadrant of
>> both upper and lower bearings from
>> this fretting. That they also form in the upper bearing
>> shows they are not directly load related.
>>
>> Lubrication failure from fretting causes metal to metal
>> contact that forms microscopic welds between balls and
>> races. These welds repeatedly tear material from the softer
>> of the two causing elliptical milky dimples in both races.
>> Were these Brinelling marks (embossed through force), they
>> would be shiny and smooth and primarily on the
>> inner race of the bearing. Various testimonials for the
>> durability of one bearing over another are more likely an
>> indication of lubrication than the design of the bearing.
>> Ball bearings with separate cups and cones have been used as
>> head bearings longer than they should considering their poor
>> performance.
>
> Fascinating. THanks also to Frank for pointing this out.
>
> So if it is fretting, it really is more of friction type wear
> after all, but I'm not sure how the purported welding mechanism
> would be classified.
>

I'm not a metallurgist but out here in the macro world of
riding bicycles the failure is from _loss_ of material, not
from _displacement_ of material.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2023-04-29, Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700, NFN Smith <worldoff9908@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> [snip}
>
>> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
>
> My Fuji Grand Tourer was pretty old when I had the components on my
> Raleigh Carleton moved onto it. The Carleton had a stripped brake
> bridge, and Spouse had recently bought a Raleigh Pro. Seventies,
> eighties?
>
> I think his grand nephew has the Pro now. The Carleton might be up
> in the barn attic, or we may have given it to the same nephew.
>
> The weather and my schedule allowed a short ride this morning. (27
> April 2023) I've worn out two sets of wire panniers, but it may
> still have the pedals that were on it when clipless pedals came in.
> There was a presentation on clipless at a bike-club meeting, and I
> thought "That's what I'll buy when my pedals wear out!" But I'd just
> bought a pair of pedals with replaceable bearings. *Standard*
> bearings, to reference another thread. I recall a mechanic sending me
> to a hardware store so that I wouldn't have to wait for him to order .
> . . I *think* it was bearings.
>
> Eventually, I realized that pedals that can't be used when one isn't
> wearing cleats don't suit the way I ride.
>
> One of my sewing machines is probably over a century old, and I've had
> it since the sixties, but I can't say I use it because it needs repair
> and I can't lift it into the car to take it to the repair shop. There
> are things that it does better than newer machines -- it cost a year's
> salary when it was new -- but the Nechhi Lycia I bought in 1965 does
> them adequately.
>

Old stuff still in use.....*all* of it!

Well, my Cannondale touring frame (are they even in business anymore?) is
from the 80's. The SunTour Barcon shifters on it are from my late 70's
Centurion Super LeMans which was replaced by the Cannondale when I broke the
rear dropout.

I have at least one Bike Nashbar pannier from the 80's and my Carradice are
from around 2000, I think.

pH in Aptos

On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 10:56:40 AM UTC-7, pH wrote:
> On 2023-04-29, Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> > On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700, NFN Smith <worldo...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > [snip}
> >
> >> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
> >
> > My Fuji Grand Tourer was pretty old when I had the components on my
> > Raleigh Carleton moved onto it. The Carleton had a stripped brake
> > bridge, and Spouse had recently bought a Raleigh Pro. Seventies,
> > eighties?
> >
> > I think his grand nephew has the Pro now. The Carleton might be up
> > in the barn attic, or we may have given it to the same nephew.
> >
> > The weather and my schedule allowed a short ride this morning. (27
> > April 2023) I've worn out two sets of wire panniers, but it may
> > still have the pedals that were on it when clipless pedals came in.
> > There was a presentation on clipless at a bike-club meeting, and I
> > thought "That's what I'll buy when my pedals wear out!" But I'd just
> > bought a pair of pedals with replaceable bearings. *Standard*
> > bearings, to reference another thread. I recall a mechanic sending me
> > to a hardware store so that I wouldn't have to wait for him to order .
> > . . I *think* it was bearings.
> >
> > Eventually, I realized that pedals that can't be used when one isn't
> > wearing cleats don't suit the way I ride.
> >
> > One of my sewing machines is probably over a century old, and I've had
> > it since the sixties, but I can't say I use it because it needs repair
> > and I can't lift it into the car to take it to the repair shop. There
> > are things that it does better than newer machines -- it cost a year's
> > salary when it was new -- but the Nechhi Lycia I bought in 1965 does
> > them adequately.
> >
> Old stuff still in use.....*all* of it!
>
> Well, my Cannondale touring frame (are they even in business anymore?) is
> from the 80's. The SunTour Barcon shifters on it are from my late 70's
> Centurion Super LeMans which was replaced by the Cannondale when I broke the
> rear dropout.
>
> I have at least one Bike Nashbar pannier from the 80's and my Carradice are
> from around 2000, I think.
>
> pH in Aptos

The thermal tights I have I bought from Nashbar in the early 2000's. Biden made absolutely certain to destroy private business in the USA so that the government could take over. The death rates from Covid-19 in all of the lock down states was pretty much identical to Florida. There was absolutely NO reason for the lockdowns. The vaccines killed one out of every 10 people that took it and it was blames on Covid-19 despite there being no SARS-Cov-2 markers in their blood stream. This economy was purposely destroyed so that the Chinese economy could replace it. Everything is lies from the Democrats - for every Russian soldier killed 6 Ukrainians are. That SOB Biden had American troops in the Ukraine operating the high tech weapons that they are not helping. So why is the Slime Stream Media reporting the opposite? The Ukrainian "leader" is threatening to use American made missiles to attack Moscow. If he does, that will start a war. Who will that profit?

On 4/29/2023 1:56 PM, pH wrote:
>
> Old stuff still in use.....*all* of it!
>
> Well, my Cannondale touring frame (are they even in business anymore?) is
> from the 80's. The SunTour Barcon shifters on it are from my late 70's...

Same here!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 4:08:38 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 10:56:40 AM UTC-7, pH wrote:
> > On 2023-04-29, Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> > > On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700, NFN Smith <worldo...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > [snip}
> > >
> > >> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
> > >
> > > My Fuji Grand Tourer was pretty old when I had the components on my
> > > Raleigh Carleton moved onto it. The Carleton had a stripped brake
> > > bridge, and Spouse had recently bought a Raleigh Pro. Seventies,
> > > eighties?
> > >
> > > I think his grand nephew has the Pro now. The Carleton might be up
> > > in the barn attic, or we may have given it to the same nephew.
> > >
> > > The weather and my schedule allowed a short ride this morning. (27
> > > April 2023) I've worn out two sets of wire panniers, but it may
> > > still have the pedals that were on it when clipless pedals came in.
> > > There was a presentation on clipless at a bike-club meeting, and I
> > > thought "That's what I'll buy when my pedals wear out!" But I'd just
> > > bought a pair of pedals with replaceable bearings. *Standard*
> > > bearings, to reference another thread. I recall a mechanic sending me
> > > to a hardware store so that I wouldn't have to wait for him to order ..
> > > . . I *think* it was bearings.
> > >
> > > Eventually, I realized that pedals that can't be used when one isn't
> > > wearing cleats don't suit the way I ride.
> > >
> > > One of my sewing machines is probably over a century old, and I've had
> > > it since the sixties, but I can't say I use it because it needs repair
> > > and I can't lift it into the car to take it to the repair shop. There
> > > are things that it does better than newer machines -- it cost a year's
> > > salary when it was new -- but the Nechhi Lycia I bought in 1965 does
> > > them adequately.
> > >
> > Old stuff still in use.....*all* of it!
> >
> > Well, my Cannondale touring frame (are they even in business anymore?) is
> > from the 80's. The SunTour Barcon shifters on it are from my late 70's
> > Centurion Super LeMans which was replaced by the Cannondale when I broke the
> > rear dropout.
> >
> > I have at least one Bike Nashbar pannier from the 80's and my Carradice are
> > from around 2000, I think.
> >
> > pH in Aptos
> The thermal tights I have I bought from Nashbar in the early 2000's. Biden made absolutely certain to destroy private business in the USA so that the government could take over. The death rates from Covid-19 in all of the lock down states was pretty much identical to Florida. There was absolutely NO reason for the lockdowns. The vaccines killed one out of every 10 people that took it and it was blames on Covid-19 despite there being no SARS-Cov-2 markers in their blood stream. This economy was purposely destroyed so that the Chinese economy could replace it. Everything is lies from the Democrats - for every Russian soldier killed 6 Ukrainians are. That SOB Biden had American troops in the Ukraine operating the high tech weapons that they are not helping. So why is the Slime Stream Media reporting the opposite? The Ukrainian "leader" is threatening to use American made missiles to attack Moscow. If he does, that will start a war. Who will that profit?

lol...more of that famous kunich focus

Q: What is the oldest equipment you have ?
A: THE DEMOCRATS ARE DESTROYING AMERICA!!!!

On Sat, 29 Apr 2023 13:08:36 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 10:56:40?AM UTC-7, pH wrote:
>> On 2023-04-29, Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>> > On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700, NFN Smith <worldo...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > [snip}
>> >
>> >> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
>> >
>> > My Fuji Grand Tourer was pretty old when I had the components on my
>> > Raleigh Carleton moved onto it. The Carleton had a stripped brake
>> > bridge, and Spouse had recently bought a Raleigh Pro. Seventies,
>> > eighties?
>> >
>> > I think his grand nephew has the Pro now. The Carleton might be up
>> > in the barn attic, or we may have given it to the same nephew.
>> >
>> > The weather and my schedule allowed a short ride this morning. (27
>> > April 2023) I've worn out two sets of wire panniers, but it may
>> > still have the pedals that were on it when clipless pedals came in.
>> > There was a presentation on clipless at a bike-club meeting, and I
>> > thought "That's what I'll buy when my pedals wear out!" But I'd just
>> > bought a pair of pedals with replaceable bearings. *Standard*
>> > bearings, to reference another thread. I recall a mechanic sending me
>> > to a hardware store so that I wouldn't have to wait for him to order .
>> > . . I *think* it was bearings.
>> >
>> > Eventually, I realized that pedals that can't be used when one isn't
>> > wearing cleats don't suit the way I ride.
>> >
>> > One of my sewing machines is probably over a century old, and I've had
>> > it since the sixties, but I can't say I use it because it needs repair
>> > and I can't lift it into the car to take it to the repair shop. There
>> > are things that it does better than newer machines -- it cost a year's
>> > salary when it was new -- but the Nechhi Lycia I bought in 1965 does
>> > them adequately.
>> >
>> Old stuff still in use.....*all* of it!
>>
>> Well, my Cannondale touring frame (are they even in business anymore?) is
>> from the 80's. The SunTour Barcon shifters on it are from my late 70's
>> Centurion Super LeMans which was replaced by the Cannondale when I broke the
>> rear dropout.
>>
>> I have at least one Bike Nashbar pannier from the 80's and my Carradice are
>> from around 2000, I think.
>>
>> pH in Aptos
>
>The thermal tights I have I bought from Nashbar in the early 2000's. Biden made absolutely certain to destroy private business in the USA so that the government could take over. The death rates from Covid-19 in all of the lock down states was pretty much identical to Florida. There was absolutely NO reason for the lockdowns. The vaccines killed one out of every 10 people that took it and it was blames on Covid-19 despite there being no SARS-Cov-2 markers in their blood stream. This economy was purposely destroyed so that the Chinese economy could replace it. Everything is lies from the Democrats - for every Russian soldier killed 6 Ukrainians are. That SOB Biden had American troops in the Ukraine operating the high tech weapons that they are not helping. So why is the Slime Stream Media reporting the opposite? The Ukrainian "leader" is threatening to use American made missiles to attack Moscow. If he does, that will start a war. Who will that profit?

Tommy, where do you get your "facts"? Of the 8 States with the most
stringent rules in the Covid endemic 6 of them had a lower rate of
Covid deaths then Florida and all of them had a lower rate of Covid
infection then Florida.

As for immunization? Well Countries like Cuba - 88.3% vaccinated,
Chile - 92,6%, Brunei - 191,9% (lot of foreigners), Japan 0 71.9% and
Taiwan - 6=87.4% the death rate from Covid is extremely low, in 3
digit numbers, with the exception of Chili - 3350 and Brunei- 3.

Or. to put it another way... You don't know what you are talking
about! Or perhaps you are telling lies again?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 10:40:49 p.m. UTC-5, NFN Smith wrote:
> After wasting most of April, I'm trying to get consistent mileage.
>
> Something that I thought of was the age of some of my stuff. I realized
> that the oldest stuff that I use:
>
> - Hardware: I have a set of 1st generation Look pedals that still serve
> me nicely.
>
> - Clothing: I have a set of acrylic arm warmers that I use regularly
> when it's cold.
>
> I got the pedals used in 1990, and I think I got the arm warmers about a
> year or two before that.
>
> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
>
> Smith

I still have a Brook's Competition saddle that Brook's informed me was made in 1963 or 1964. I find it quite comfortable.

Cheers

On 4/25/23 22:40, NFN Smith wrote:
> After wasting most of April, I'm trying to get consistent mileage.
>
> Something that I thought of was the age of some of my stuff.  I realized
> that the oldest stuff that I use:
>
> - Hardware: I have a set of 1st generation Look pedals that still serve
> me nicely.

I still use the stock pedals on my 1972 Raleigh Superbe.

> - Clothing: I have a set of acrylic arm warmers that I use regularly
> when it's cold.

I still use merino wool shorts, tights, and jerseys I bought in the late
1970s from Protogs.

--
John Thompson <johnthompson3446@att.net>

On 4/26/23 15:05, Tom Kunich wrote:
> I have my father's toolbox but I was talking about my bicycle tools,
> like that Freewheel removal tool for 5 speed freewheels that I used
> back in the 70's on my Peugeot PX10's.

I still use my Campagnolo tool case I bought back in 1985.

--
John Thompson <johnthompson3446@att.net>

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 3:50:19 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> >On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 13:17:49 -0700 (PDT), Luns Tee <lu...@berkeley.edu>
> >wrote:
> >>By chance, I saw such irons still in active professional use just a few years ago. Rather than the bed of coals, I think it was a small propane burner in a pot.
> >>
> >>Lest anybody assume otherwise, this was not for soldering wiring, but for soldering roof flashing. Apparently it's still common practice. I don't know why this would be preferred over a handheld propane torch, heating the iron directly in use, but presume the roofers know what they're doing better than I would.

> I'm guessing but it is possibly that using a torch might burn off any
> soldering flux that was used and certainly using an open flame
> presents a problem if the metal is "galvanized" as an open flame will
> vaporize the zinc coating, the "galvanizing", and breathing zinc fumes
> is a very serious matter that can lead to death.

The torch I was referring to applies flame directly to a copper bit, which in turn is what contacts the workpiece.

https://www.stortz.com/product/perkeo-soldering-iron-w-copper-bit/

I've seen variants where the flame is contained, and some where the fuel source is a gas canister rather than hose. I don't know if the flame in either case would be an issue for flux or galvanizing, but it might just boil down to personal preference.

-Luns

On Sun, 30 Apr 2023 22:48:00 -0700 (PDT), Luns Tee <luns@berkeley.edu>
wrote:

>On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 3:50:19?PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> >On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 13:17:49 -0700 (PDT), Luns Tee <lu...@berkeley.edu>
>> >wrote:
>> >>By chance, I saw such irons still in active professional use just a few years ago. Rather than the bed of coals, I think it was a small propane burner in a pot.
>> >>
>> >>Lest anybody assume otherwise, this was not for soldering wiring, but for soldering roof flashing. Apparently it's still common practice. I don't know why this would be preferred over a handheld propane torch, heating the iron directly in use, but presume the roofers know what they're doing better than I would.
>
>> I'm guessing but it is possibly that using a torch might burn off any
>> soldering flux that was used and certainly using an open flame
>> presents a problem if the metal is "galvanized" as an open flame will
>> vaporize the zinc coating, the "galvanizing", and breathing zinc fumes
>> is a very serious matter that can lead to death.
>
>The torch I was referring to applies flame directly to a copper bit, which in turn is what contacts the workpiece.
>
>https://www.stortz.com/product/perkeo-soldering-iron-w-copper-bit/
>
>I've seen variants where the flame is contained, and some where the fuel source is a gas canister rather than hose. I don't know if the flame in either case would be an issue for flux or galvanizing, but it might just boil down to personal preference.
>
>-Luns

If it was galvanized, i.e., zinc coated, I'd be very apprehensive
about getting a flame anywhere near it as Zinc vapors are really bad
news, but from the video it appears that either the flame is far back
of the soldering tip or that the gas flame is off while actually
soldering.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Am Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700 schrieb NFN Smith
<worldoff9908@gmail.com>:

>What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?

I still use the original Ortlieb Back Roller panniers shown in a picture
I took in 1992, while on vacation with my whole family.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/urlaub/emsland1992.jpeg>

Sadly, the Sparta Cornwall bicycle is long gone, those panniers are now
mounted on an inferior dutch style bicycle made by Prophete. Good enough
for the use case, shopping and transportation nearby.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/hollandrad/prophete-hollandrad.jpg>

Before anybody asks: that bicycle helmet our sons where wearing at that
time moved to the garbage shortly thereafter, without replacement.
Neither of us has worn any bicycle helmet ever since. Its better that
way.

--
Bicycle helmets are the Bach flower remedies of traffic

Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700 schrieb NFN Smith
> <worldoff9908@gmail.com>:
>
>
>> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
>
> I still use the original Ortlieb Back Roller panniers shown in a picture
> I took in 1992, while on vacation with my whole family.
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/urlaub/emsland1992.jpeg>

>
> Sadly, the Sparta Cornwall bicycle is long gone, those panniers are now
> mounted on an inferior dutch style bicycle made by Prophete. Good enough
> for the use case, shopping and transportation nearby.

I use those though they only last few years, before they get worn thin, and
start to leak.

Almost certainly as I brush them as I pass through the alley way behind my
house to the street so they rub on the pebbles dashed wall.
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/hollandrad/prophete-hollandrad.jpg>
>
> Before anybody asks: that bicycle helmet our sons where wearing at that
> time moved to the garbage shortly thereafter, without replacement.
> Neither of us has worn any bicycle helmet ever since. Its better that
> way.
>
>
Roger Merriman

On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 11:57:16 PM UTC-7, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700 schrieb NFN Smith
> <worldo...@gmail.com>:
> >What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
> I still use the original Ortlieb Back Roller panniers shown in a picture
> I took in 1992, while on vacation with my whole family.
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/urlaub/emsland1992.jpeg>
>
> Sadly, the Sparta Cornwall bicycle is long gone, those panniers are now
> mounted on an inferior dutch style bicycle made by Prophete. Good enough
> for the use case, shopping and transportation nearby.
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/hollandrad/prophete-hollandrad.jpg>
>
> Before anybody asks: that bicycle helmet our sons where wearing at that
> time moved to the garbage shortly thereafter, without replacement.
> Neither of us has worn any bicycle helmet ever since. Its better that
> way.
>
>
> --
> Bicycle helmets are the Bach flower remedies of traffic

There are dramatic differences in what cases deaths and injuries on bicycles. Most deaths have motor vehicle involvement whereas most injuries do not. So while a helmet will not save your life, they will mediate the most common bicycle injuries of falling over by losing your balance mostly as low rates of speed. While I did a study showing that helmets do not effect rates of bicycle deaths at all, I still recommend them. Especially the latest Bontrager Wave Cell helmet, While these may turn out to be no better than the standard helmet, at least they tried to construct a helmet the prevents concussions in normal bicycle crashes.

Am Mon, 01 May 2023 10:56:42 GMT schrieb Roger Meriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:

>Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>> Am Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700 schrieb NFN Smith
>> <worldoff9908@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>>> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
>>
>> I still use the original Ortlieb Back Roller panniers shown in a picture
>> I took in 1992, while on vacation with my whole family.
>>
>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/urlaub/emsland1992.jpeg>
>
>>
>> Sadly, the Sparta Cornwall bicycle is long gone, those panniers are now
>> mounted on an inferior dutch style bicycle made by Prophete. Good enough
>> for the use case, shopping and transportation nearby.
>
>I use those though they only last few years, before they get worn thin, and
>start to leak.

Legend has it, that Ortlieb Back Rollers originally where made from PVC
truck tarpaulin, which is extremely strong and tear-resistant. Later,
Ortlieb changed materials (and colors) a few times.
<https://www.ortlieb.com/en_us/about-us>

>
>Almost certainly as I brush them as I pass through the alley way behind my
>house to the street so they rub on the pebbles dashed wall.

That might explain it. In what year did you buy your Ortliebs?

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Mon, 01 May 2023 10:56:42 GMT schrieb Roger Meriman
> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>
>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>> Am Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700 schrieb NFN Smith
>>> <worldoff9908@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>
>>>> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
>>>
>>> I still use the original Ortlieb Back Roller panniers shown in a picture
>>> I took in 1992, while on vacation with my whole family.
>>>
>>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/urlaub/emsland1992.jpeg>
>>
>>>
>>> Sadly, the Sparta Cornwall bicycle is long gone, those panniers are now
>>> mounted on an inferior dutch style bicycle made by Prophete. Good enough
>>> for the use case, shopping and transportation nearby.
>>
>> I use those though they only last few years, before they get worn thin, and
>> start to leak.
>
> Legend has it, that Ortlieb Back Rollers originally where made from PVC
> truck tarpaulin, which is extremely strong and tear-resistant. Later,
> Ortlieb changed materials (and colors) a few times.
> <https://www.ortlieb.com/en_us/about-us>
>
>
>>
>> Almost certainly as I brush them as I pass through the alley way behind my
>> house to the street so they rub on the pebbles dashed wall.
>
> That might explain it. In what year did you buy your Ortliebs?
>
>
First I think in 2015 but those died after few years so now on 2nd pair
though I commute much less now, so though still get worn brushing past
house and probably A frame etc stuff they put in park entrances as so
worried about motorbike use!

But so far haven’t started to leak they tend to not tear but just start to
get thin, but I still rate them far better than cheaper ones I used before.

Roger Merriman