On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:30:00 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 8:27:03 AM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> >
> > Zoya sahiba,
> >
> > Let me repeat this hindi couplet here ...
> >
> > समर शेष है, नहीं पाप का भागी केवल व्याध
> > जो तटस्थ हैं, समय लिखेगा उनके भी अपराध
> >
> > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh
> > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> >
> >
> > Dinesh
>
> ***Paraphrase, please. Or at least the meanings of these words:
>
> samar, shesh, vyaadh, taTasth
>
> Thanks in advance,
> R.K.***

RK sahib, "namaste" ... since we are talking about a hindi kavita :)

samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh
jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
-- Raamdhaari Singh Dinakar
samar = war/fight; jung in urdu?
shesh = left; baaqii in urdu?
vyaadh = hunter/oppressor; shikaarii in urdu?
taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute; RK sahib, please recommend a good urdu word
aparaadh=crime
Here is a loose translation ... which can never match the impact the original couplet creates ...
The fight is still on, the hunter/oppressor alone is not accountable for the crimes (being committed)
Time will judge/blame those who are opting to remain neutral/indifferent

Dinesh

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 6:55:01 PM UTC-6, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:

Dinesh sahib,

aap muKhaatib to Prof RK se haiN, lekin jab tak voh tashriif laate haiN, ijaazat ho to ek do baateN maiN karti chaluuN? :)

> shesh = left; baaqii in urdu?

* Left is fine, but I would probably use 'remaining' for 'shesh'.

> taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute; RK sahib, please recommend a good urdu word

*I am curious what Urdu word Prof RK will suggest for indifferent, but I am thinking "laa_ta'alluq".

is baat par aap aaj shaam kaa she'r sunte bhi jaaiye, baqaul Abbas Tabish:

laa_ta'alluq nazar aataa thaa bazaahir lekin
shahr ko us ne mirii Khair-Khabar par rakhkhaa :)

> aparaadh=crime

* Of course, jurm.

_________Zoya

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 4:55:01 PM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:30:00 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 8:27:03 AM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> > >
> > > Zoya sahiba,
> > >
> > > Let me repeat this hindi couplet here ...
> > >
> > > समर शेष है, नहीं पाप का भागी केवल व्याध
> > > जो तटस्थ हैं, समय लिखेगा उनके भी अपराध
> > >
> > > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh
> > > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> > >
> > >
> > > Dinesh
> >
> > ***Paraphrase, please. Or at least the meanings of these words:
> >
> > samar, shesh, vyaadh, taTasth
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > R.K.***
> RK sahib, "namaste" ... since we are talking about a hindi kavita :)
> samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh
> jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> -- Raamdhaari Singh Dinakar
> samar = war/fight; jung in urdu?
> shesh = left; baaqii in urdu?
> vyaadh = hunter/oppressor; shikaarii in urdu?
> taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute; RK sahib, please recommend a good urdu word
> aparaadh=crime
> Here is a loose translation ... which can never match the impact the original couplet creates ...
> The fight is still on, the hunter/oppressor alone is not accountable for the crimes (being committed)
> Time will judge/blame those who are opting to remain neutral/indifferent
>
> Dinesh

***Thanks, Dinesh sahib!

For taTasth (= neutral, non-partisan), the corresponding Urdu word is Ghair-jaanib-daar (= not taking sides).

You know jaanib-daar = taraf-daar. Hence the word Ghair-jaanib-daar, though I have never seen Ghair-taraf-daar in use.

chaliye, isi baat par aek she'r sunte jaaiye:

bhejaa tha maiN ne apnii taraf se jinheN vahaaN
jaate hi vaaN sab us ke taraf-daar ho gaye!

R.K.***

On Wednesday, 19 January 2022 at 00:55:01 UTC, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:30:00 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 8:27:03 AM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> > >
> > > Zoya sahiba,
> > >
> > > Let me repeat this hindi couplet here ...
> > >
> > > समर शेष है, नहीं पाप का भागी केवल व्याध
> > > जो तटस्थ हैं, समय लिखेगा उनके भी अपराध
> > >
> > > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh
> > > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> > >
> > >
> > > Dinesh
> >
> > ***Paraphrase, please. Or at least the meanings of these words:
> >
> > samar, shesh, vyaadh, taTasth
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > R.K.***
> RK sahib, "namaste" ... since we are talking about a hindi kavita :)
> samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh
> jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> -- Raamdhaari Singh Dinakar
> samar = war/fight; jung in urdu?
> shesh = left; baaqii in urdu?
> vyaadh = hunter/oppressor; shikaarii in urdu?
> taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute; RK sahib, please recommend a good urdu word
> aparaadh=crime
> Here is a loose translation ... which can never match the impact the original couplet creates ...
> The fight is still on, the hunter/oppressor alone is not accountable for the crimes (being committed)
> Time will judge/blame those who are opting to remain neutral/indifferent
>
> Dinesh
Dinesh SaaHib, aadaab.

Thank you once again for this quote. It's all very well to quote poetry of this type along with Faiz Ahmed Faiz's "bol kih lab aazaad haiN tere..., Pastor Martin Niemöller's "First they came for socialists, and I did not speak out..." and Martin Luther King's "A time comes when silence is betrayal". The question is what can ordinary people like us do to stem the kinds of crimes you mention in your quote. I suppose one can write to people in authority, take part in demonstrations and the like but this is easier in some countries than others. Having said this, I have done my best (I think) and taken part in these activities.

There are of course people who speak out and are continuing to speak put. Examples of these are Arundhati Roy, Karan Thapar, Naseeruddin Shah, Norman Finklestein, Gideon Levy, George Galloway and many more.

A friend of mine once said to me, "Naseer, don't discuss religion and politics with your friends. If you do, you will loose their friendship." There is a lot of wisdom in this. I tried to "spread the message" to a few people I knew. One of my English friends whose faith I was not aware of, does not see me as a friend any more. Two Sikh friends don't really see any problem in what's happening in India and are no longer communicating with me. Two or three Hindu friends do not respond at all about these matters. So, it seems to be a waste of time and there is no point speaking to the "converted"! So, I don't know if I am still betraying the victims or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFri_SoPN28&ab_channel=TheWire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=897NPRpvOYU&ab_channel=TheWire

Naseer

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 11:54:21 PM UTC-6, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 4:55:01 PM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:

> > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh
> > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh

> > taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute;

> For taTasth (= neutral, non-partisan), the corresponding Urdu word is Ghair-jaanib-daar (= not taking sides).
>
> You know jaanib-daar = taraf-daar. Hence the word Ghair-jaanib-daar, though I have never seen Ghair-taraf-daar in use.

RK sahib/Dinesh sahib,

I think we need to distinguish between 'neutral' and 'indifferent', similar words but not exact synonyms. I totally agree with RK sahib that 'neutral' would be ghair-jaanib-daar, and as I had said earlier, 'indifferent' is more like 'laa_ta'alluq'.

Coming back to the Dinkar's couplet and taTasth, I think it is a compound word literally meaning taT par stith i.e. kinaare par baiThha hua. I can visualize this as someone sitting on the coast, watching but intentionally not getting involved in any turbulence. Or maybe someone just relaxing on the beach, enjoying the sea breeze, totally indifferent to what else is going around. So neutral or indifferent? Or either??

At a personal level, there are some situations where I understand two opposing points of view, on issues big and small, and decide to stay neutral. And then there are matters that I really don't care about and am totally indifferent to what others think or say about. But if there is a gross injustice, as implied in Dinkar's couplet, it is hard for any person of good conscience to be either neutral or indifferent.
> chaliye, isi baat par aek she'r sunte jaaiye:
>
> bhejaa tha maiN ne apnii taraf se jinheN vahaaN
> jaate hi vaaN sab us ke taraf-daar ho gaye!
>
> R.K.***

RK sahib, baat taraf-daari kii ho rahi hai to ab aap meri pasand kaa ek she'r suniye, baqaul Saaghar Siddiqui:

Hashr meN kaun gavaahii miri degaa 'Saaghar'
sab tumhaare hi taraf-daar nazar aate haiN! :-)

_________Zoya

On Wednesday, 19 January 2022 at 00:55:01 UTC, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:30:00 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 8:27:03 AM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> > >
> > > Zoya sahiba,
> > >
> > > Let me repeat this hindi couplet here ...
> > >
> > > समर शेष है, नहीं पाप का भागी केवल व्याध
> > > जो तटस्थ हैं, समय लिखेगा उनके भी अपराध
> > >
> > > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh
> > > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> > >
> > >
> > > Dinesh
> >
> > ***Paraphrase, please. Or at least the meanings of these words:
> >
> > samar, shesh, vyaadh, taTasth
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > R.K.***
> RK sahib, "namaste" ... since we are talking about a hindi kavita :)
> samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh
> jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> -- Raamdhaari Singh Dinakar
> samar = war/fight; jung in urdu?
> shesh = left; baaqii in urdu?
> vyaadh = hunter/oppressor; shikaarii in urdu?
> taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute; RK sahib, please recommend a good urdu word
> aparaadh=crime
> Here is a loose translation ... which can never match the impact the original couplet creates ...
> The fight is still on, the hunter/oppressor alone is not accountable for the crimes (being committed)
> Time will judge/blame those who are opting to remain neutral/indifferent
>
> Dinesh

Dinesh SaaHib, I've checked a couple of dictionaries and they don't don't provide the meaning for "vyaadha" as "opressor" but only give "hunter".

My attempt at re-writing this couplet in Urdu. Hopefully, RK SaaHib will correct the vazn etc.

jang jaarii hai, nahiiN jurm meN shariik faqat saiyyaad (hunter)
jo laa-parvaa haiN vaqt likhe gaa un kii bhii be-daad (injustice)

Perhaps "faqat" can be changed to "sirf" to add a bit of alliteration.

Naseer

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 8:10:36 AM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 11:54:21 PM UTC-6, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 4:55:01 PM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
>
> > > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh
> > > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> > > taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute;
> > For taTasth (= neutral, non-partisan), the corresponding Urdu word is Ghair-jaanib-daar (= not taking sides).
> >
> > You know jaanib-daar = taraf-daar. Hence the word Ghair-jaanib-daar, though I have never seen Ghair-taraf-daar in use.
> RK sahib/Dinesh sahib,
>
> I think we need to distinguish between 'neutral' and 'indifferent', similar words but not exact synonyms. I totally agree with RK sahib that 'neutral' would be ghair-jaanib-daar, and as I had said earlier, 'indifferent' is more like 'laa_ta'alluq'.
>
> Coming back to the Dinkar's couplet and taTasth, I think it is a compound word literally meaning taT par stith i.e. kinaare par baiThha hua. I can visualize this as someone sitting on the coast, watching but intentionally not getting involved in any turbulence. Or maybe someone just relaxing on the beach, enjoying the sea breeze, totally indifferent to what else is going around. So neutral or indifferent? Or either??
>
> At a personal level, there are some situations where I understand two opposing points of view, on issues big and small, and decide to stay neutral. And then there are matters that I really don't care about and am totally indifferent to what others think or say about. But if there is a gross injustice, as implied in Dinkar's couplet, it is hard for any person of good conscience to be either neutral or indifferent.

laat'aaluq if a neutral sense is desired, bayhis if the connotation implied is that remains indifferent inspite of seeing something after which one should not remain indifferent.

> > chaliye, isi baat par aek she'r sunte jaaiye:
> >
> > bhejaa tha maiN ne apnii taraf se jinheN vahaaN
> > jaate hi vaaN sab us ke taraf-daar ho gaye!
> >
> > R.K.***
> RK sahib, baat taraf-daari kii ho rahi hai to ab aap meri pasand kaa ek she'r suniye, baqaul Saaghar Siddiqui:
>
> Hashr meN kaun gavaahii miri degaa 'Saaghar'
> sab tumhaare hi taraf-daar nazar aate haiN! :-)
>
> _________Zoya

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 9:16:54 AM UTC-8, Naseer wrote:
> On Wednesday, 19 January 2022 at 00:55:01 UTC, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:30:00 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 8:27:03 AM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Zoya sahiba,
> > > >
> > > > Let me repeat this hindi couplet here ...
> > > >
> > > > समर शेष है, नहीं पाप का भागी केवल व्याध
> > > > जो तटस्थ हैं, समय लिखेगा उनके भी अपराध
> > > >
> > > > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh
> > > > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dinesh
> > >
> > > ***Paraphrase, please. Or at least the meanings of these words:
> > >
> > > samar, shesh, vyaadh, taTasth
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance,
> > > R.K.***
> > RK sahib, "namaste" ... since we are talking about a hindi kavita :)
> > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh
> > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> > -- Raamdhaari Singh Dinakar
> > samar = war/fight; jung in urdu?
> > shesh = left; baaqii in urdu?
> > vyaadh = hunter/oppressor; shikaarii in urdu?
> > taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute; RK sahib, please recommend a good urdu word
> > aparaadh=crime
> > Here is a loose translation ... which can never match the impact the original couplet creates ...
> > The fight is still on, the hunter/oppressor alone is not accountable for the crimes (being committed)
> > Time will judge/blame those who are opting to remain neutral/indifferent
> >
> > Dinesh
> Dinesh SaaHib, I've checked a couple of dictionaries and they don't don't provide the meaning for "vyaadha" as "opressor" but only give "hunter".
>
> My attempt at re-writing this couplet in Urdu. Hopefully, RK SaaHib will correct the vazn etc.
>
> jang jaarii hai, nahiiN jurm meN shariik faqat saiyyaad (hunter)
> jo laa-parvaa haiN vaqt likhe gaa un kii bhii be-daad (injustice)
>
> Perhaps "faqat" can be changed to "sirf" to add a bit of alliteration.
>
> Naseer
لاتعلق کھڑے جو یہ بے حس ہیں سب وقت ان بےحسوں کا کرے گا حساب
laat'aalluq kharay jo ye bayhiss hain sab, waqt in bay hisoN ka karay ga hisaab

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 12:18:05 PM UTC-8, bekas Murray wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 9:16:54 AM UTC-8, Naseer wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 19 January 2022 at 00:55:01 UTC, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:30:00 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 8:27:03 AM UTC-8, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Zoya sahiba,
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me repeat this hindi couplet here ...
> > > > >
> > > > > समर शेष है, नहीं पाप का भागी केवल व्याध
> > > > > जो तटस्थ हैं, समय लिखेगा उनके भी अपराध
> > > > >
> > > > > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh
> > > > > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dinesh
> > > >
> > > > ***Paraphrase, please. Or at least the meanings of these words:
> > > >
> > > > samar, shesh, vyaadh, taTasth
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance,
> > > > R.K.***
> > > RK sahib, "namaste" ... since we are talking about a hindi kavita :)
> > > samar shesh hai, nahiiN paap kaa bhaagi keval vyaadh
> > > jO taTasth haiN, samay likhega unke bhii aparaadh
> > > -- Raamdhaari Singh Dinakar
> > > samar = war/fight; jung in urdu?
> > > shesh = left; baaqii in urdu?
> > > vyaadh = hunter/oppressor; shikaarii in urdu?
> > > taTasth=neutral/indifferent, One who does not side with any party in a war or dispute; RK sahib, please recommend a good urdu word
> > > aparaadh=crime
> > > Here is a loose translation ... which can never match the impact the original couplet creates ...
> > > The fight is still on, the hunter/oppressor alone is not accountable for the crimes (being committed)
> > > Time will judge/blame those who are opting to remain neutral/indifferent
> > >
> > > Dinesh
> > Dinesh SaaHib, I've checked a couple of dictionaries and they don't don't provide the meaning for "vyaadha" as "opressor" but only give "hunter".
> >
> > My attempt at re-writing this couplet in Urdu. Hopefully, RK SaaHib will correct the vazn etc.
> >
> > jang jaarii hai, nahiiN jurm meN shariik faqat saiyyaad (hunter)
> > jo laa-parvaa haiN vaqt likhe gaa un kii bhii be-daad (injustice)
> >
> > Perhaps "faqat" can be changed to "sirf" to add a bit of alliteration.
> >
> > Naseer
> لاتعلق کھڑے جو یہ بے حس ہیں سب وقت ان بےحسوں کا کرے گا حساب
jang hai ab musalsal, nahiN daam maiN bas shikaarii hi roaz e hisaab
> laat'aalluq kharay jo ye bayhiss hain sab, waqt in bay hisoN ka karay ga hisaab

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 12:12:54 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:

> laat'aaluq if a neutral sense is desired, bayhis if the connotation implied is that remains indifferent inspite of seeing something after which one should not remain indifferent.

bekas sahib, thanks for joining this discussion, the more the merrier! :)

You have described laata'alluq and behis well, behis being on the high end of the indifference spectrum. Bad, unfeeling. But sometimes it may be sort of a defense mechanism, necessary for survival?

This reminds me of something else now. Recently, I was thinking about the difference between two words used a lot these days: misinformation and disinformation.
Misinformation is simply spreading info that is false or wrong, usually without being even aware that it may not be true, and probably with no malicious intent.
Disinformation on the other hand is deliberately spreading misleading or biased information. Much worse.

Interesting stuff. How would we distinguish between these two words in Urdu or Hindi??

ab aap 'behisii' par Fatima Hasan kaa ek she'r sunte jaaiye, is kaa qaafia zaraa 'unexpected' hai, aur mujhe pasand hai:

'Fatima' dard ke rishte se kinaaraa karnaa
behisii keh lo ise, yeh koi nirvaan nahiiN

And so it continues,

__________Zoya

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 4:03:00 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 12:12:54 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:
>
> > laat'aaluq if a neutral sense is desired, bayhis if the connotation implied is that remains indifferent inspite of seeing something after which one should not remain indifferent.
> bekas sahib, thanks for joining this discussion, the more the merrier! :)
>
> You have described laata'alluq and behis well, behis being on the high end of the indifference spectrum. Bad, unfeeling. But sometimes it may be sort of a defense mechanism, necessary for survival?
>

A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i

> This reminds me of something else now. Recently, I was thinking about the difference between two words used a lot these days: misinformation and disinformation.
> Misinformation is simply spreading info that is false or wrong, usually without being even aware that it may not be true, and probably with no malicious intent.
> Disinformation on the other hand is deliberately spreading misleading or biased information. Much worse.
>
> Interesting stuff. How would we distinguish between these two words in Urdu or Hindi??
>
ghalat baat or jhoot

> ab aap 'behisii' par Fatima Hasan kaa ek she'r sunte jaaiye, is kaa qaafia zaraa 'unexpected' hai, aur mujhe pasand hai:
>
> 'Fatima' dard ke rishte se kinaaraa karnaa
> behisii keh lo ise, yeh koi nirvaan nahiiN
>
> And so it continues,
>
> __________Zoya

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 5:08:55 PM UTC-8, bekas Murray wrote:
> On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 4:03:00 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 12:12:54 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:
> >
> > > laat'aaluq if a neutral sense is desired, bayhis if the connotation implied is that remains indifferent inspite of seeing something after which one should not remain indifferent.
> > bekas sahib, thanks for joining this discussion, the more the merrier! :)
> >
> > You have described laata'alluq and behis well, behis being on the high end of the indifference spectrum. Bad, unfeeling. But sometimes it may be sort of a defense mechanism, necessary for survival?
> >
> A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i
> > This reminds me of something else now. Recently, I was thinking about the difference between two words used a lot these days: misinformation and disinformation.
> > Misinformation is simply spreading info that is false or wrong, usually without being even aware that it may not be true, and probably with no malicious intent.
> > Disinformation on the other hand is deliberately spreading misleading or biased information. Much worse.
> >
> > Interesting stuff. How would we distinguish between these two words in Urdu or Hindi??
> >

dis·in·for·ma·tion
/ˌdisənfərˈmāSH(ə)n/
noun
false information which is intended to mislead, especially propaganda issued by a government organization to a rival power or the media.
"the entire Western intelligence system had been systematically manipulated with clever disinformation"

mis·in·for·ma·tion
/ˌmisinfərˈmāSH(ə)n/
noun
false or inaccurate information, especially that which is deliberately intended to deceive.
"nuclear matters are often entangled in a web of secrecy and misinformation"

If one looks at the prefixes
mis- prefix
Definition of mis- (Entry 2 of 2)
1a: badly : wrongly
misjudge
b: unfavorably
misesteem
c: in a suspicious manner
misdoubt
2: bad : wrong
misdeed
3: opposite or lack of
mistrust
4: not
misknow

dis- prefix
Definition of dis- (Entry 5 of 5)
1a: do the opposite of
disestablish
b: deprive of (a specified quality, rank, or object)
disfranchise
c: exclude or expel from
disbar
2: opposite or absence of
disunion
disaffection
3: not
disagreeable
4: completely
disannul
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dis
By number 4 disinformation would mean complete information :)

> ghalat baat or jhoot
> > ab aap 'behisii' par Fatima Hasan kaa ek she'r sunte jaaiye, is kaa qaafia zaraa 'unexpected' hai, aur mujhe pasand hai:
> >
> > 'Fatima' dard ke rishte se kinaaraa karnaa
> > behisii keh lo ise, yeh koi nirvaan nahiiN
> >
> > And so it continues,
> >
> > __________Zoya

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:08:55 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:

> A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i

I like this phrase, silent spectator, can have many different connotations.

"khaamosh tamaashaa'i", trying to think of a she'r with this phrase, but can't right now.

Prof RK, if you are reading these messages, will you please write a she'r for us using this phase? Please? :)

> > Misinformation
> > Disinformation

> > How would we distinguish between these two words in Urdu or Hindi??

> ghalat baat or jhoot

Hmmmmmmm, disinformation is generally more than a simple lie, more like propagating falsehoods. I am thinking along the lines of 'jhuuTaa prachaar' in Hindi, not sure about Urdu.

________Zoya

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 2:06:29 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:08:55 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:
>
> > A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i
> I like this phrase, silent spectator, can have many different connotations.
>
> "khaamosh tamaashaa'i", trying to think of a she'r with this phrase, but can't right now.
>
> Prof RK, if you are reading these messages, will you please write a she'r for us using this phase? Please? :)

***
yeh Qais k barsoN se is bazm ki raunaq thaa
qismat ne banaa Daalaa Khaamosh tamaashaa'ii

R.K.

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 6:10:30 PM UTC-6, Raj Kumar wrote:

> > Prof RK, if you are reading these messages, will you please write a she'r for us using this phrase? Please? :)
> ***
> yeh Qais k barsoN se is bazm ki raunaq thaa
> qismat ne banaa Daalaa Khaamosh tamaashaa'ii
>
> R.K.

vaah vaah, kya baat hai Raj uncle. Spontaneous and superb. :-)

aap jaante haiN is par maiN kyaa kehne vaali huuN:

ab aksar chup chup se rahe haiN, yuuNhi kabhu lab khole haiN
pehle 'Firaaq' ko dekhaa hotaa, ab to bahut kam bole haiN

kam kam hii sahii, magar aap bolte zaruur rahiye. aap ke baghair mehfil meN jii nahiiN lagtaa.

salaamat rahiye.

_________Zoya

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 2:06:29 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:08:55 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:
>
> > A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i
> I like this phrase, silent spectator, can have many different connotations.
>
> "khaamosh tamaashaa'i", trying to think of a she'r with this phrase, but can't right now.
>
> Prof RK, if you are reading these messages, will you please write a she'r for us using this phase? Please? :)
>
> > > Misinformation
> > > Disinformation
> > > How would we distinguish between these two words in Urdu or Hindi??
>
> > ghalat baat or jhoot
> Hmmmmmmm, disinformation is generally more than a simple lie, more like propagating falsehoods. I am thinking along the lines of 'jhuuTaa prachaar' in Hindi, not sure about Urdu.
>

jhoot ka iblaagh
jhoot phailaanaa

> ________Zoya

On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 12:24:16 PM UTC-8, bekas Murray wrote:
> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 2:06:29 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:08:55 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:
> >
> > > A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i
> > I like this phrase, silent spectator, can have many different connotations.
> >
> > "khaamosh tamaashaa'i", trying to think of a she'r with this phrase, but can't right now.
> >
> > Prof RK, if you are reading these messages, will you please write a she'r for us using this phase? Please? :)
> >
> > > > Misinformation
> > > > Disinformation
> > > > How would we distinguish between these two words in Urdu or Hindi??
> >
> > > ghalat baat or jhoot
> > Hmmmmmmm, disinformation is generally more than a simple lie, more like propagating falsehoods. I am thinking along the lines of 'jhuuTaa prachaar' in Hindi, not sure about Urdu.
> >
> jhoot ka iblaagh
> jhoot phailaanaa
>
An expression that is used is "jhoot ka palanda"
> > ________Zoya

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 2:06:29 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:08:55 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:
>
> > A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i
> I like this phrase, silent spectator, can have many different connotations.
>

Another phrase that is used is summun, bukkun, ummiyun

> "khaamosh tamaashaa'i", trying to think of a she'r with this phrase, but can't right now.
>
> Prof RK, if you are reading these messages, will you please write a she'r for us using this phase? Please? :)
>
> > > Misinformation
> > > Disinformation
> > > How would we distinguish between these two words in Urdu or Hindi??
>
> > ghalat baat or jhoot
> Hmmmmmmm, disinformation is generally more than a simple lie, more like propagating falsehoods. I am thinking along the lines of 'jhuuTaa prachaar' in Hindi, not sure about Urdu.
>
> ________Zoya

On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 10:03:36 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:

> Another phrase that is used is summun, bukkun, ummiyun

What???????? Who are these guys? Never heard of them. :-)

aur ab maiN yeh soch rahi huuN k agar Raj uncle se is 'phrase' par ek she'r likhne kii farmaaish karuuN, to bhalaa voh kya kaheNge? :-))

On Tuesday, 1 February 2022 at 04:03:36 UTC, bekas Murray wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:08:55 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:
> >
> > > A phrase that is also used is khaamosh tamaashaa'i
> > I like this phrase, silent spectator, can have many different connotations.
> >
> Another phrase that is used is summun, bukkun, ummiyun

summun, bukmun, 3umyun [fa-hum laa yarji3uun] {Qur'an 2:18}

They are (wilfully) deaf, dumb, and blind, [so they will not return] (to the Right Path)

Naseer

On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 8:30:16 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 10:03:36 PM UTC-6, bekas Murray wrote:
>
> > Another phrase that is used is summun, bukkun, ummiyun
> What???????? Who are these guys? Never heard of them. :-)
>
They are the deaf, the dumb, the blind (metaphorically when used in this context)
samaa'at is used in Urdu for hearing probably from the same root.
may be the same in gumsum. Not sure. The linguists can speak to that.

ummi is used in urdu more in the sense of ignorant but from Platts
A اعمي aʻmā, adj. Blind; ignorant; — s.m. A desert.

In English we have "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil"
The phrase is often used to refer to those who deal with impropriety by turning a blind eye.
In the original Japanese:
The saying in Japanese is mizaru, kikazaru, iwazaru (見ざる, 聞かざる, 言わざる) "see not, hear not, speak not", where the -zaru is a negative conjugation on the three verbs, matching zaru, the modified form of saru (猿) "monkey" used in compounds. Thus the saying (which does not include any specific reference to "evil") can also be interpreted as referring to three monkeys.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wise_monkeys

> aur ab maiN yeh soch rahi huuN k agar Raj uncle se is 'phrase' par ek she'r likhne kii farmaaish karuuN, to bhalaa voh kya kaheNge? :-))

> > > Another phrase that is used is summun, bukkun, ummiyun

> In English we have "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil"

Thank you, gentlemen.

I was not familiar with the Qur'anic reference, but know about the Japanese connection.

However, growing up in India, we always associated the three wise monkeys with Mahatma Gandhi. We called them "baapu ke tiin bandar", and even had three little monkey figurines displayed in our home, each one covering eyes, ears or mouth. Regardless of the origin, this mantra is golden, only if we could follow it!

And now that I understand the 'phrase', let me quote the perfect she'r to go along with it, by Mirza Ghalib of course:

na suno gar buraa kahe koii
na kaho gar buraa kare koii

________Zoya

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 5:27:36 PM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> > > > Another phrase that is used is summun, bukkun, ummiyun
> > In English we have "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil"
> Thank you, gentlemen.
>
> I was not familiar with the Qur'anic reference, but know about the Japanese connection.
>
> However, growing up in India, we always associated the three wise monkeys with Mahatma Gandhi. We called them "baapu ke tiin bandar", and even had three little monkey figurines displayed in our home, each one covering eyes, ears or mouth. Regardless of the origin, this mantra is golden, only if we could follow it!
>
here the meaning is more towards not to participate in the acts and also not to see them to keep you out of trouble or bad acts. In the context of the earlier discussion the meaning is more in the sense of to not see and hear and speak even when you are actually hearing and seeing that which should offend.

> And now that I understand the 'phrase', let me quote the perfect she'r to go along with it, by Mirza Ghalib of course:
>
> na suno gar buraa kahe koii
> na kaho gar buraa kare koii
>
I think here the context is more on a personal note that is not to respond when you are attacked by words or deeds. In the very next sher ghalib writes:
rok lo gar ġhalat chale koī
baḳhsh do gar ḳhatā kare koī

> ________Zoya

تُم کو چھونے میں بھی اندیشہِ رُسوائی ہے
میں نے چھہ سال کی پہلے بھی سزا پائی ہے

tum ko chhoonay meiN bhi adesha-e-ruswaaii hai
maiN ne chhe saal ki pehle bhi saza paaii hai

On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 10:05:08 AM UTC-6, Shoaib Tanvir wrote:

> tum ko chhoonay meiN bhi adesha-e-ruswaaii hai
> maiN ne chhe saal ki pehle bhi saza paaii hai

Always good to see you here Shoaib sahib.
sirf chhe saal ki sazaa? Not bad! :-)

vaise aap to pehle se hii Valentine's Day vaghaira ko nahiiN maante, magar abhi kuchh der pehle mere ek dost ne mujh se aaj ke din par "ek she'r" kii farmaaish kii. maiN ne JE kaa jo she'r unheN sunaaya, vohi aap bhi sun liijiye:

vafaa, iKhlaas, qurbaanii, muhabbat
ab in lafzoN ka pichhaa kyuN kareN ham?

My friend was like "what?????". I am sure you will appreciate this one more! :-))

Disillusioned, but not completely,
________Zoya :)