On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 8:35:49 PM UTC-5, chromebook test wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 8:23:45 PM UTC-5, chromebook test wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 8:17:45 PM UTC-5, chromebook test wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 2:20:00 PM UTC-5, chromebook test wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 12:13:10 PM UTC-5, Rhino wrote:
> > > > > This article just came up in my newsfeed and it was very much on-topic
> > > > > for this newsgroup:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishabassi/popular-tv-shows-people-hated
> > > > >
> > > > > For what it's worth, I actually stayed to the end of some of the series
> > > > > on their list, including Orange is the New Black, Weeds, and Dexter. But
> > > > > I only ever watched two episodes of Walking Dead and was bored to tears
> > > > > for both of those so never went past that.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, what would be on YOUR list of shows that you loved and then hated?
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't have the time to think of 25 out of all the shows I've ever seen
> > > > > and any list I made would probably change any given day but I'll mention
> > > > > a few that come to mind off the top of my head.
> > > > >
> > > > > In no particular order:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
> > > > > was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
> > > > > about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
> > > > > first place: I just found it intriguing and was very curious to see
> > > > > where it was going to go.
> > > > LOST's subtext was the ISLAND'S historical retelling of it's 2000 year long history, the character development WASN"T the subtext. The subtext was based on the Islands mythology.
> > > There was one character whose development could be considered a historical re-imagining and that was John Locke. Locke was rumored to be immaculately conceived by his mother. Locke eventually sacrificed a blood cleansing kidney, and on island, was pierced in his side by someone he once called a Pharisee. After Locke died he was resurrected and instead of saving the island, he was now on a mission to destroy it, in the process destroying the Temple as the new temporary leader of the Others.
> > >
> > > Locke's story paralleled the life story of Jesus of Nazareth, a first century Israelite.
> > >
> > > These parallels require some current and ancient historical knowledge to uncover, and that is probably why so many could not see a plan because it all appeared a jumbled mess without the historical context.
> > >
> > > No, the writers were NOT making it as they went along, they were reimagining recorded history.
> > And I forgot to add, Locke was hanged on a cross. Don't believe me? Go back and watch where the Pharisee Ben Linus strangles Locke to death, and then suspends his body on a rope from the ceiling rafters.
>
>
> > LOOK AT THE RAFTER PATTERN CLOSELY. They form a cross.
> https://screenrant.com/lost-season-6-promo-image-the-last-supper/
>
>
> Combine the Christ figure with the rest of the mythology mentioned in this thread and it is obvious that showrunners and head writers Lindelof a Jew, and Cuse a Catholic, had a plan.
>
> The plan wasn't to proselytize or convert, it was to educate in a non didactic entertaining fashion.
>
> Hurley's way of running the island was preferred over Ben's.
>
> Unfortunately, if you look to the middle east, Ben is still in charge, killing the hostiles, violating their land boundaries, and building walls and security fences to keep them out.

The LOST narrative skipped around in time as did the subtextual inspirations. Historical Christ was not contemporary with The Bomb In The Basement, but Locke's story intertwined with Jughead.

What started as a story about airplane crash survivors morphed into a narrative circling around the island's mythology.

The characters were a vehicle to explore the allegory and metaphors.

"Israel is a tiny island in the heart of a giant Arab sea" - David Ben Gurion

Apparently only Dave Chappelle and Jews understand metaphors. Everyone else just wanted to watch Evangeline Lilly standing surf-side in her skivvies.

(gosh darn it, I liked that scene too!)

On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 9:19:28 PM UTC-5, chromebook test wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 8:35:49 PM UTC-5, chromebook test wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 8:23:45 PM UTC-5, chromebook test wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 8:17:45 PM UTC-5, chromebook test wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 2:20:00 PM UTC-5, chromebook test wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 12:13:10 PM UTC-5, Rhino wrote:
> > > > > > This article just came up in my newsfeed and it was very much on-topic
> > > > > > for this newsgroup:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishabassi/popular-tv-shows-people-hated
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For what it's worth, I actually stayed to the end of some of the series
> > > > > > on their list, including Orange is the New Black, Weeds, and Dexter. But
> > > > > > I only ever watched two episodes of Walking Dead and was bored to tears
> > > > > > for both of those so never went past that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now, what would be on YOUR list of shows that you loved and then hated?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't have the time to think of 25 out of all the shows I've ever seen
> > > > > > and any list I made would probably change any given day but I'll mention
> > > > > > a few that come to mind off the top of my head.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In no particular order:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
> > > > > > was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
> > > > > > about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
> > > > > > first place: I just found it intriguing and was very curious to see
> > > > > > where it was going to go.
> > > > > LOST's subtext was the ISLAND'S historical retelling of it's 2000 year long history, the character development WASN"T the subtext. The subtext was based on the Islands mythology.
> > > > There was one character whose development could be considered a historical re-imagining and that was John Locke. Locke was rumored to be immaculately conceived by his mother. Locke eventually sacrificed a blood cleansing kidney, and on island, was pierced in his side by someone he once called a Pharisee. After Locke died he was resurrected and instead of saving the island, he was now on a mission to destroy it, in the process destroying the Temple as the new temporary leader of the Others.
> > > >
> > > > Locke's story paralleled the life story of Jesus of Nazareth, a first century Israelite.
> > > >
> > > > These parallels require some current and ancient historical knowledge to uncover, and that is probably why so many could not see a plan because it all appeared a jumbled mess without the historical context.
> > > >
> > > > No, the writers were NOT making it as they went along, they were reimagining recorded history.
> > > And I forgot to add, Locke was hanged on a cross. Don't believe me? Go back and watch where the Pharisee Ben Linus strangles Locke to death, and then suspends his body on a rope from the ceiling rafters.
> >
> >
> > > LOOK AT THE RAFTER PATTERN CLOSELY. They form a cross.
> > https://screenrant.com/lost-season-6-promo-image-the-last-supper/
> >
> >
> > Combine the Christ figure with the rest of the mythology mentioned in this thread and it is obvious that showrunners and head writers Lindelof a Jew, and Cuse a Catholic, had a plan.
> >
> > The plan wasn't to proselytize or convert, it was to educate in a non didactic entertaining fashion.
> >
> > Hurley's way of running the island was preferred over Ben's.
> >
> > Unfortunately, if you look to the middle east, Ben is still in charge, killing the hostiles, violating their land boundaries, and building walls and security fences to keep them out.
> The LOST narrative skipped around in time as did the subtextual inspirations. Historical Christ was not contemporary with The Bomb In The Basement, but Locke's story intertwined with Jughead.
>
> What started as a story about airplane crash survivors morphed into a narrative circling around the island's mythology.
>
> The characters were a vehicle to explore the allegory and metaphors.
>
> "Israel is a tiny island in the heart of a giant Arab sea" - David Ben Gurion
>
> Apparently only Dave Chappelle and Jews understand metaphors. Everyone else just wanted to watch Evangeline Lilly standing surf-side in her skivvies..

The LOST showrunners were jokers on their podcasts but serious and disciplined in their writing. Sometimes they were jokers and serious at the same time:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/40381315@N08/4624956600/

Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-02-21 20:53:45 +0000, anim8rfsk said:
>
>> Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2023-02-21 18:14:13 +0000, BTR1701 said:
>>>
>>>> In article <tt2u32$16i55$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In no particular order:
>>>>>
>>>>> Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
>>>>> was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
>>>>> about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
>>>>> first place: I just found it intriguing and was very curious to see
>>>>> where it was going to go.
>>>>
>>>> I stayed with it longer than I normally would have for Evangeline Lilly.
>>>
>>> I like "Lost" on balance, but the final season was pretty bad, and the
>>> ending was pretty unforgivable.
>>>
>>>> I'm pretty much watching THE FLASH out of habit at this point. I really
>>>> don't care anything about it.
>>>
>>> Most of The C-Wub shows fall into this category. Even "Legacies", which
>>> didn't fall apart into s**t like all of the Arrowverse shows did, still
>>> declined some with its last couple of seasons.
>>>
>>> On my list would be:
>>>
>>> - Vikings: Got worse and worse, post-Ragnar. Post-Lagertha, I didn't
>>> even finish it!
>>>
>>> - Earth: Final Conflict - I stayed with it on and off through the
>>> bitter end, but only season #1 was any good. The last few seasons were
>>> awful.
>>
>> The final season is tied with any other nominee for worst season ever
>> produced.
>>
>>> - Mutant X - Anim can joke all he wants, but final post-Lauren Lee
>>> Smith, post-John Shea season with Karen Cliche was *terrible*.
>>
>> Honestly, it wasn’t any worse than the rest of the show.
>>
>>> - Degrassi - Definitely declined even before the "original" cast
>>> departed in season #7 (probably killing off what's his face in season
>>> #6(?) was the "jump the shark" moment), and got worse and worse after.
>>> Post-Holly J, I think it was pretty much unwatachable.
>>>
>>> - I'm pretty sure I started hating "Friends" by its last couple of seasons.
>>>
>>> I'm sure there are others that are slipping my mind right now.
>>
>> You didn’t say anything about Buffy.
>
> 'Cos it only ran one season!!1! :p
>
> (Seriously, though - both "Buffy" and "Angel" would qualify for me,
> with "Buffy" having the added effect that I also came to despise its
> fandom!)
>
>

Buffy would definitely count for me. Angel… The only giant misstep Angel
made was getting rid of Lilah and replacing her with the pig slut bitch
based on Marty Noxon. Well, turning Cordelia into a blond haired chewed off
by weasels baby Raper, but that was more like midway.

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 14:29:03 -0800, Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-02-21 20:53:45 +0000, anim8rfsk said:
>>
>>> Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2023-02-21 18:14:13 +0000, BTR1701 said:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <tt2u32$16i55$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In no particular order:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
>>>>>> was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
>>>>>> about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
>>>>>> first place: I just found it intriguing and was very curious to see
>>>>>> where it was going to go.
>>>>>
>>>>> I stayed with it longer than I normally would have for Evangeline Lilly.
>>>>
>>>> I like "Lost" on balance, but the final season was pretty bad, and the
>>>> ending was pretty unforgivable.
>>>>
>>>>> I'm pretty much watching THE FLASH out of habit at this point. I really
>>>>> don't care anything about it.
>>>>
>>>> Most of The C-Wub shows fall into this category. Even "Legacies", which
>>>> didn't fall apart into s**t like all of the Arrowverse shows did, still
>>>> declined some with its last couple of seasons.
>>>>
>>>> On my list would be:
>>>>
>>>> - Vikings: Got worse and worse, post-Ragnar. Post-Lagertha, I didn't
>>>> even finish it!
>>>>
>>>> - Earth: Final Conflict - I stayed with it on and off through the
>>>> bitter end, but only season #1 was any good. The last few seasons were
>>>> awful.
>>>
>>> The final season is tied with any other nominee for worst season ever
>>> produced.
>>>
>>>> - Mutant X - Anim can joke all he wants, but final post-Lauren Lee
>>>> Smith, post-John Shea season with Karen Cliche was *terrible*.
>>>
>>> Honestly, it wasn’t any worse than the rest of the show.
>>>
>>>> - Degrassi - Definitely declined even before the "original" cast
>>>> departed in season #7 (probably killing off what's his face in season
>>>> #6(?) was the "jump the shark" moment), and got worse and worse after.
>>>> Post-Holly J, I think it was pretty much unwatachable.
>>>>
>>>> - I'm pretty sure I started hating "Friends" by its last couple of seasons.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure there are others that are slipping my mind right now.
>>>
>>> You didn’t say anything about Buffy.
>>
>> 'Cos it only ran one season!!1! :p
>>
>> (Seriously, though - both "Buffy" and "Angel" would qualify for me,
>> with "Buffy" having the added effect that I also came to despise its
>> fandom!)
>
> I don't feel that Buffy/Angel are on the same level as the others
> mentioned in this thread. Sure, the quality definitely wasn't the same
> with Buffy once Joss Whedon essentially left Buffy. While I wasn't
> against changing up Spike the Spike/Buffy relationship got rough.
> With Angel I enjoyed most of it except for what they did with Cordelia
> during her last season. It really felt like the writers had issues
> with the Charisma and were taking it out on her character.
>

She says they were mad at her for getting pregnant which honestly is a
legitimate grievance in this kind of job.

The man hating, and specifically the Xander hating, on Buffy, became
intolerable once Noxon begin her reign of terrible.

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

Alan Smithee <alms@last.inc> wrote:
> That 70s Show: The last two seasons were bad enough but after T.Grace
> left to do Spider-Man 3 and they brought in Josh Meyers it was game over.
>

Do you think they sold even one more ticket by miscasting Grace as venom?

> The Flash: Went off the rails when they started bringing in non-canon
> villains.

I am not certain exactly when it happened but it sure did happen.

>
> Sliders: Was never that good but after they lost Professor Arturo it
> started to decline.
> When they replaced Sabrina Lloyd with Carrie Wuhrer the show went
> straight to garbage.

I didn’t mind, Kari, but I’m agreed what they did to Sabrina was just
sadistic crap.

>
> Smallville: Went on waaay too long.

Yeah, and I didn’t like the whole bit with Lois sleeping with arrow, and
Clark getting arrows sloppy seconds. Or for that matter, Lana, sleeping
with Bizzarro and Clark getting Bizzarro’s sloppy seconds.

>
> iZombie: Started out great but you could tell the writers could not come
> up with a good idea by the time it ended. The main character went from
> taking on minor personality traits of the person whose brain she ate to
> virtually becoming that person.
>
> Veronica Mars: Season one was great, season two was lackluster, by
> season three who cared anymore? Her "on again / off again" relationship
> with her boyfriend became tedious in the extreme.

Them deciding she wasn’t really raped after all was OK, but then then
reversing it again and saying she really was raped was just too much.

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

On 2023-02-21 10:13 a.m., Rhino wrote:
> This article just came up in my newsfeed and it was very much on-topic
> for this newsgroup:
>
> https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishabassi/popular-tv-shows-people-hated
>
> For what it's worth, I actually stayed to the end of some of the series
> on their list, including Orange is the New Black, Weeds, and Dexter. But
> I only ever watched two episodes of Walking Dead and was bored to tears
> for both of those so never went past that.
>
> Now, what would be on YOUR list of shows that you loved and then hated?
>
> I don't have the time to think of 25 out of all the shows I've ever seen
> and any list I made would probably change any given day but I'll mention
> a few that come to mind off the top of my head.
>
> In no particular order:
>
> Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
> was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
> about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
> first place: I just found it intriguing and was very curious to see
> where it was going to go.
I watched a fair bit of the first season and found it incoherent. They
seemed to be making it up as they went along with no idea where they
were going. All empty mystery boxes.

>
> Killing Eve - I watched the first three seasons and but bailed when the
> Season 4 premiere was way too bizarre for my tastes. Again, I never
> really loved it but was curious to see if they were ever going to make
> it clear why Jodie Comer's character was as deranged as she was.
>
> Game of Thrones - I think I got part way through Season 5 before I
> realized I didn't care about enough of the characters to carry on and
> dumped it. Mind you, I never loved it either, never having been a fan of
> sword and sorcery fiction.
>
> That's all that comes to mind at the moment!
>
Battlestar Galactica Deux. I loved the initial miniseries. I despised
it by the finish.

I thought Harry O's first season was good and the change of direction in
the second ruined it.

Heroes had a good first season then went to crap when they chickened out
of the denouement they'd been building toward.

no_offline_contact@example.com wrote:

>This article just came up in my newsfeed and it was very much on-topic
>for this newsgroup:
>
>https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishabassi/popular-tv-shows-people-hated
>
>For what it's worth, I actually stayed to the end of some of the series
>on their list, including Orange is the New Black, Weeds, and Dexter. But
>I only ever watched two episodes of Walking Dead and was bored to tears
>for both of those so never went past that.
>
>Now, what would be on YOUR list of shows that you loved and then hated?
>
>I don't have the time to think of 25 out of all the shows I've ever seen
>and any list I made would probably change any given day but I'll mention
>a few that come to mind off the top of my head.
>
>In no particular order:
>
>Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
>was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
>about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
>first place

So why is it on your list? :-)

>Killing Eve - I watched the first three seasons and but bailed when the
>Season 4 premiere was way too bizarre for my tastes. Again, I never
>really loved it

So why did you mention it? :-)

My list of shows I loved but then hated:

LOST:
I loved the story and mysteries and attention needed to watch, but by third
season, realized they had been lying about having a five year plan, a la B5,
for the show and their other bullshittery. I still become very angry about it
if I see a rerun while channel-surfing.

TWO BROKE GIRLS:
I loved the concept and the characters but hated the show after Max
deliberately sabotaged Caroline's office job that she was perfectly
skilled at performing by making a fake sexual harassment claim and
getting her fired (and probably ever working again, not to mention
providing a steady income for their dream cupcake shop), followed
by Caroline remaining friends with her.

HEROES:
I loved the first season but quit watching the second when they made the
heroes' sacrifice to stop Skylar pointless.

THE WALKING DEAD:
I loved this show but hated how 1) the crew were goldfish, 2) The Governor
kept reappearing, and C) Ninja Walkers.

Honorable mention:

CHARMED:
This was a fun show until Allysa Milano got Shannan kicked off the show and
made her character a Mary Sue HR nightmare.

--
Let's go Brandon!

Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
> no_offline_contact@example.com wrote:
>
>> This article just came up in my newsfeed and it was very much on-topic
>> for this newsgroup:
>>
>> https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishabassi/popular-tv-shows-people-hated
>>
>> For what it's worth, I actually stayed to the end of some of the series
>> on their list, including Orange is the New Black, Weeds, and Dexter. But
>> I only ever watched two episodes of Walking Dead and was bored to tears
>> for both of those so never went past that.
>>
>> Now, what would be on YOUR list of shows that you loved and then hated?
>>
>> I don't have the time to think of 25 out of all the shows I've ever seen
>> and any list I made would probably change any given day but I'll mention
>> a few that come to mind off the top of my head.
>>
>> In no particular order:
>>
>> Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
>> was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
>> about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
>> first place
>
> So why is it on your list? :-)
>
>> Killing Eve - I watched the first three seasons and but bailed when the
>> Season 4 premiere was way too bizarre for my tastes. Again, I never
>> really loved it
>
> So why did you mention it? :-)
>
> My list of shows I loved but then hated:
>
> LOST:
> I loved the story and mysteries and attention needed to watch, but by third
> season, realized they had been lying about having a five year plan, a la B5,
> for the show and their other bullshittery. I still become very angry about it
> if I see a rerun while channel-surfing.

Yes

>
> TWO BROKE GIRLS:
> I loved the concept and the characters but hated the show after Max
> deliberately sabotaged Caroline's office job that she was perfectly
> skilled at performing by making a fake sexual harassment claim and
> getting her fired (and probably ever working again, not to mention
> providing a steady income for their dream cupcake shop), followed
> by Caroline remaining friends with her.

I see the occasional rerun. I wish they’d quit acting like somebody was
filming a high school stage play where they have to face the audience at
all times and shout their lines.

>
> HEROES:
> I loved the first season but quit watching the second when they made the
> heroes' sacrifice to stop Skylar pointless.

I quit watching somewhere around the pilot

>
> THE WALKING DEAD:
> I loved this show but hated how 1) the crew were goldfish, 2) The Governor
> kept reappearing, and C) Ninja Walkers.
>
> Honorable mention:
>
> CHARMED:
> This was a fun show until Allysa Milano got Shannan kicked off the show and
> made her character a Mary Sue HR nightmare.

I never watched the show until Rose joined so for me Shannon was always the
odd character out if I caught a rerun.
I had forgotten about the shows horrible final season with big bang Katie.

>
>
> --
> Let's go Brandon!
>
>

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
> BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>> In article <tt2u32$16i55$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This article just came up in my newsfeed and it was very much on-topic
>>> for this newsgroup:
>>>
>>> https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishabassi/popular-tv-shows-people-hated
>>>
>>> For what it's worth, I actually stayed to the end of some of the series
>>> on their list, including Orange is the New Black, Weeds, and Dexter. But
>>> I only ever watched two episodes of Walking Dead and was bored to tears
>>> for both of those so never went past that.
>>>
>>> Now, what would be on YOUR list of shows that you loved and then hated?
>>>
>>> I don't have the time to think of 25 out of all the shows I've ever seen
>>> and any list I made would probably change any given day but I'll mention
>>> a few that come to mind off the top of my head.
>>>
>>> In no particular order:
>>>
>>> Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
>>> was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
>>> about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
>>> first place: I just found it intriguing and was very curious to see
>>> where it was going to go.
>>
>> I stayed with it longer than I normally would have for Evangeline Lilly.
>>
>> I'm pretty much watching THE FLASH out of habit at this point. I really
>> don't care anything about it.
>>
>
> Ditto on the flash. It’s actually amusing that they’re using CGI to try to
> make Candice Patton not look grotesquely obese.
>
> I don’t think I’ve ridden any of Berlanti shows into the ground. I either
> quit in the middle and come back just for the end or quit before the end
> and didn’t bother coming back. That’s pretty scary considering what a
> completist I am.
>
> Kung fu - quit after season one
> The Flash - quit and came back just to watch it die.
> Doom patrol – only the pilot was available to me.
> Stargirl SG1 – only the pilot was available to me.
> Riverdale – bailed after season one and hated lasting long enough to learn
> to dis like Vanessa Morgan.
> Superman and lameass – just watch it sporadically.
> Batteredwoman - stayed long enough to see them switch out the lead
> character.
> DC’s legends of tomorrow - left when rip hunter did except for special
> episodes.
> Stupidgirl – quit when the writers started saying it was more important to
> put in woke messages, than write a good script. Came back to watch her die.
> Titans – quit when Robin started disemboweling people.
> Black lightning - quit as soon as I saw China Anne McClain!
> The awful arrow - quit about halfway through and just came back for special
> episodes.
> Sabrina - quit first season over sloppy production values.
>

I am sorry that all my carriage returns disappeared there. They really were
there when I hit send.

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 17:59:00 -0500, shawn
<nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

>I don't feel that Buffy/Angel are on the same level as the others
>mentioned in this thread. Sure, the quality definitely wasn't the same
>with Buffy once Joss Whedon essentially left Buffy. While I wasn't
>against changing up Spike the Spike/Buffy relationship got rough.
>With Angel I enjoyed most of it except for what they did with Cordelia
>during her last season. It really felt like the writers had issues
>with the Charisma and were taking it out on her character.

I mostly watched the latter seasons for Amy Acker's sake. Her
character was just so quirky and fun - and I loved the Wolfram and
Hartt episodes!

On 2023-02-21 22:59:00 +0000, shawn said:

> On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 14:29:03 -0800, Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid>
> wrote:
>> On 2023-02-21 20:53:45 +0000, anim8rfsk said:
>>> Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2023-02-21 18:14:13 +0000, BTR1701 said:
>>>>> In article <tt2u32$16i55$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In no particular order:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
>>>>>> was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
>>>>>> about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
>>>>>> first place: I just found it intriguing and was very curious to see
>>>>>> where it was going to go.
>>>>>
>>>>> I stayed with it longer than I normally would have for Evangeline Lilly.
>>>>
>>>> I like "Lost" on balance, but the final season was pretty bad, and the
>>>> ending was pretty unforgivable.
>>>>
>>>>> I'm pretty much watching THE FLASH out of habit at this point. I really
>>>>> don't care anything about it.
>>>>
>>>> Most of The C-Wub shows fall into this category. Even "Legacies", which
>>>> didn't fall apart into s**t like all of the Arrowverse shows did, still
>>>> declined some with its last couple of seasons.
>>>>
>>>> On my list would be:
>>>>
>>>> - Vikings: Got worse and worse, post-Ragnar. Post-Lagertha, I didn't
>>>> even finish it!
>>>>
>>>> - Earth: Final Conflict - I stayed with it on and off through the
>>>> bitter end, but only season #1 was any good. The last few seasons were
>>>> awful.
>>>
>>> The final season is tied with any other nominee for worst season ever
>>> produced.
>>>
>>>> - Mutant X - Anim can joke all he wants, but final post-Lauren Lee
>>>> Smith, post-John Shea season with Karen Cliche was *terrible*.
>>>
>>> Honestly, it wasn’t any worse than the rest of the show.
>>>
>>>> - Degrassi - Definitely declined even before the "original" cast
>>>> departed in season #7 (probably killing off what's his face in season
>>>> #6(?) was the "jump the shark" moment), and got worse and worse after.
>>>> Post-Holly J, I think it was pretty much unwatachable.
>>>>
>>>> - I'm pretty sure I started hating "Friends" by its last couple of seasons.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure there are others that are slipping my mind right now.
>>>
>>> You didn’t say anything about Buffy.
>>
>> 'Cos it only ran one season!!1! :p
>>
>> (Seriously, though - both "Buffy" and "Angel" would qualify for me,
>> with "Buffy" having the added effect that I also came to despise its
>> fandom!)
>
> I don't feel that Buffy/Angel are on the same level as the others
> mentioned in this thread. Sure, the quality definitely wasn't the same
> with Buffy once Joss Whedon essentially left Buffy. While I wasn't
> against changing up Spike the Spike/Buffy relationship got rough.
> With Angel I enjoyed most of it except for what they did with Cordelia
> during her last season. It really felt like the writers had issues
> with the Charisma and were taking it out on her character.

The declared "metric" was "Shows you grew to hate" - I definitely grew
to hate "Buffy", and I hated "Angel" immediately after Doyle "died"
though I had mellowed on it some by its final season.

But both meet the criteria.

--
"Who would ever do this to him!?" - HottCiara on DOOL (04-27-2020), asking
who would stab Victor Kirakis... How about ANYONE WHO'S EVER MET HIM??!!

Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-02-21 20:03:19 +0000, shawn said:
>
>> On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 11:52:49 -0800, Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-02-21 18:14:13 +0000, BTR1701 said:
>>>
>>>> In article <tt2u32$16i55$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This article just came up in my newsfeed and it was very much on-topic
>>>>> for this newsgroup:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishabassi/popular-tv-shows-people-hated
>>>>>
>>>>> For what it's worth, I actually stayed to the end of some of the series
>>>>> on their list, including Orange is the New Black, Weeds, and Dexter. But
>>>>> I only ever watched two episodes of Walking Dead and was bored to tears
>>>>> for both of those so never went past that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, what would be on YOUR list of shows that you loved and then hated?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have the time to think of 25 out of all the shows I've ever seen
>>>>> and any list I made would probably change any given day but I'll mention
>>>>> a few that come to mind off the top of my head.
>>>>>
>>>>> In no particular order:
>>>>>
>>>>> Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
>>>>> was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
>>>>> about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
>>>>> first place: I just found it intriguing and was very curious to see
>>>>> where it was going to go.
>>>>
>>>> I stayed with it longer than I normally would have for Evangeline Lilly.
>>>
>>> I like "Lost" on balance, but the final season was pretty bad, and the
>>> ending was pretty unforgivable.
>>
>> Especially after spending so long trying to sell the viewers on how
>> there is a plan that will bring all that we saw together in the end.
>> It was a weak hand waving ending that didn't justify the hype.
>>
>>>> I'm pretty much watching THE FLASH out of habit at this point. I really
>>>> don't care anything about it.
>>>
>>> Most of The C-Wub shows fall into this category. Even "Legacies", which
>>> didn't fall apart into s**t like all of the Arrowverse shows did, still
>>> declined some with its last couple of seasons.
>>>
>>> On my list would be:
>>>
>>> - Vikings: Got worse and worse, post-Ragnar. Post-Lagertha, I didn't
>>> even finish it!
>>>
>>> - Earth: Final Conflict - I stayed with it on and off through the
>>> bitter end, but only season #1 was any good. The last few seasons were
>>> awful.
>>
>> Yeah, I can agree with this as someone that watched every episode.
>>
>>> - Mutant X - Anim can joke all he wants, but final post-Lauren Lee
>>> Smith, post-John Shea season with Karen Cliche was *terrible*.
>>
>> I honestly can't remember enough of how the story went to say. So it
>> likely wasn't horrible enough to leave an indelible mark in my memory,
>> but also was not good enough for me to remember it either. Mostly I
>> just remember Lauren Lee Smith as being awfully cute.
>>
>>
>>> - Degrassi - Definitely declined even before the "original" cast
>>> departed in season #7 (probably killing off what's his face in season
>>> #6(?) was the "jump the shark" moment), and got worse and worse after.
>>> Post-Holly J, I think it was pretty much unwatachable.
>>
>> Never did watch this show.
>>
>>> - I'm pretty sure I started hating "Friends" by its last couple of seasons.
>>>
>>> I'm sure there are others that are slipping my mind right now.
>>
>> ANDROMEDA would be another one that followed the EFC development.
>> Weren't both of them being impacted by Tribune? Though I suppose
>> ANDROMEDA was hurt more by Kevin Sorbo than any other production
>> issues.
>
> Yes, in fact "Andromeda" is the prototypical example of this - like I
> said elsewhere, I dropped the show cold when they wrote out Tyr, and
> never looked back.
>
> But it was declining fast even before Tyr left...

That reminds me. As much as I hate to say it as it’s still the second best
Star Trek series:
Deep Space 9
They kill off Jadzia Dax, turn Gul Dukat psychotically evil, and have Ben
Sisko kill himself, completely undermining the legacy of their best episode
“the visitor“
What the hell were they thinking?

And try to imagine how much my spellchecker hated that last paragraph, and
how many times I had to fix the names and it probably still won’t come
through right.

Oh! Knight Rider. ‘Nuff said.

And perhaps the most egregious example of them all:
AIRWOLF
For that one we have no one but Canadia to blame.
“Let’s underbid the Americans to make another season and save the money by
not having the helicopter, eh?“

>
> Basically, nearly any show that ran too many seasons will end up in
> this category.
>
> "Gossip Girl" (the original) and definitely PLL (Bitches!) belong in
> here too. Maybe "The OC" as well.
>
>

I am always fascinated by the shows that turn to crap and then managed to
get better. There are so few of them!

LOST IN SPACE (1964). Its second season is unwatchable, but there are a few
gems in season three.

THE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. Season three was the goofy Batman inspired season
but they actually tried to get back to being semi-serious in season four.
It was too little too late though.

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 11:52:49 -0800, Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-02-21 18:14:13 +0000, BTR1701 said:
>>
>>> In article <tt2u32$16i55$1@dont-email.me>,
>>> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This article just came up in my newsfeed and it was very much on-topic
>>>> for this newsgroup:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishabassi/popular-tv-shows-people-hated
>>>>
>>>> For what it's worth, I actually stayed to the end of some of the series
>>>> on their list, including Orange is the New Black, Weeds, and Dexter. But
>>>> I only ever watched two episodes of Walking Dead and was bored to tears
>>>> for both of those so never went past that.
>>>>
>>>> Now, what would be on YOUR list of shows that you loved and then hated?
>>>>
>>>> I don't have the time to think of 25 out of all the shows I've ever seen
>>>> and any list I made would probably change any given day but I'll mention
>>>> a few that come to mind off the top of my head.
>>>>
>>>> In no particular order:
>>>>
>>>> Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
>>>> was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
>>>> about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
>>>> first place: I just found it intriguing and was very curious to see
>>>> where it was going to go.
>>>
>>> I stayed with it longer than I normally would have for Evangeline Lilly.
>>
>> I like "Lost" on balance, but the final season was pretty bad, and the
>> ending was pretty unforgivable.
>
> Especially after spending so long trying to sell the viewers on how
> there is a plan that will bring all that we saw together in the end.
> It was a weak hand waving ending that didn't justify the hype.
>
>>> I'm pretty much watching THE FLASH out of habit at this point. I really
>>> don't care anything about it.
>>
>> Most of The C-Wub shows fall into this category. Even "Legacies", which
>> didn't fall apart into s**t like all of the Arrowverse shows did, still
>> declined some with its last couple of seasons.
>>
>> On my list would be:
>>
>> - Vikings: Got worse and worse, post-Ragnar. Post-Lagertha, I didn't
>> even finish it!
>>
>> - Earth: Final Conflict - I stayed with it on and off through the
>> bitter end, but only season #1 was any good. The last few seasons were
>> awful.
>
> Yeah, I can agree with this as someone that watched every episode.
>
>> - Mutant X - Anim can joke all he wants, but final post-Lauren Lee
>> Smith, post-John Shea season with Karen Cliche was *terrible*.
>
> I honestly can't remember enough of how the story went to say. So it
> likely wasn't horrible enough to leave an indelible mark in my memory,
> but also was not good enough for me to remember it either. Mostly I
> just remember Lauren Lee Smith as being awfully cute.
>
>
>> - Degrassi - Definitely declined even before the "original" cast
>> departed in season #7 (probably killing off what's his face in season
>> #6(?) was the "jump the shark" moment), and got worse and worse after.
>> Post-Holly J, I think it was pretty much unwatachable.
>
> Never did watch this show.
>
>> - I'm pretty sure I started hating "Friends" by its last couple of seasons.
>>
>> I'm sure there are others that are slipping my mind right now.
>
> ANDROMEDA would be another one that followed the EFC development.
> Weren't both of them being impacted by Tribune? Though I suppose
> ANDROMEDA was hurt more by Kevin Sorbo than any other production
> issues.
>

Alexa Doig’s pregnancy was the nail in the coffin.

Did the cast of ANDROMEDA go on to have much in the way of careers?

Looks like LAURA BERTRAM went on to do one or two guest shots a year almost
entirely on Canadian shows I’ve never heard of.

Same notation for LISA RYDER.

GORDON MICHAEL WOOLVETT hasn’t had a dozen jobs in the 20 years since and
apparently became a DJ.

KEITH HAMILTON COBB has had like four credits since ANDROMEDA and
effectively ended his career after a guest shot on an episode of CSI
HORATIO where his character didn’t even have a name.

BRANDY LEDFORD ended her career at age 40 on the dot with one comeback
episode of NCIS Los Angeles.

BRENT STAIT is still working! Lots of credits, many of which are TV movies
with the word “mystery” in the title often opposite horrible people like
Holly Robinson Ptui.
Is he related to JEWEL?

KEVIN SORBO has been and continues to be quite busy, albeit mostly in stuff
I’ve never heard of, much of which would be crazy religious things based on
the titles.
Hey, I had forgotten he was the earlier Middleman character on THE
MIDDLEMAN!

And our dear ALEXA DOIG looks to have been as busy as she probably wanted
to be although her career has just been severely impacted by the crazy
religious beliefs of Candace Cameron Bure.

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 07:50:38 -0700, anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net>
wrote:

>Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
>> no_offline_contact@example.com wrote:
>>
>>> This article just came up in my newsfeed and it was very much on-topic
>>> for this newsgroup:
>>>
>>> https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishabassi/popular-tv-shows-people-hated
>>>
>>> For what it's worth, I actually stayed to the end of some of the series
>>> on their list, including Orange is the New Black, Weeds, and Dexter. But
>>> I only ever watched two episodes of Walking Dead and was bored to tears
>>> for both of those so never went past that.
>>>
>>> Now, what would be on YOUR list of shows that you loved and then hated?
>>>
>>> I don't have the time to think of 25 out of all the shows I've ever seen
>>> and any list I made would probably change any given day but I'll mention
>>> a few that come to mind off the top of my head.
>>>
>>> In no particular order:
>>>
>>> Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
>>> was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
>>> about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
>>> first place
>>
>> So why is it on your list? :-)
>>
>>> Killing Eve - I watched the first three seasons and but bailed when the
>>> Season 4 premiere was way too bizarre for my tastes. Again, I never
>>> really loved it

I am only on the second season. It's been months since I watched an
episode but I'll eventually get back to it. I don't hate the second
season but it doesn't feel as engaging as the first season.

>> So why did you mention it? :-)

It's part of a plan to grow to hate the show?
>> My list of shows I loved but then hated:
>>
>> LOST:
>> I loved the story and mysteries and attention needed to watch, but by third
>> season, realized they had been lying about having a five year plan, a la B5,
>> for the show and their other bullshittery. I still become very angry about it
>> if I see a rerun while channel-surfing.
>
>Yes

I have no interest in every rewatching this show even though the first
season had many lovely ladies. I never truly hated the show but did
hate the ending.

>

>
>
>>
>> HEROES:
>> I loved the first season but quit watching the second when they made the
>> heroes' sacrifice to stop Skylar pointless.
>
>I quit watching somewhere around the pilot

I watched it till the end. That's part of my curse because if I get
into a show I find myself wanting to see it till the end. That said
the show certainly fell apart over time.

>>
>> THE WALKING DEAD:
>> I loved this show but hated how 1) the crew were goldfish, 2) The Governor
>> kept reappearing, and C) Ninja Walkers.
>>
>> Honorable mention:

Yet another show where I watched the first couple of seasons and got
behind so I've just recorded all of the episodes (or really just
downloaded them) with the intent to get back to it eventually. I'm not
so sure how I'm going to like the Governor story line even though the
actor is great.
>> CHARMED:
>> This was a fun show until Allysa Milano got Shannan kicked off the show and
>> made her character a Mary Sue HR nightmare.
>
>I never watched the show until Rose joined so for me Shannon was always the
>odd character out if I caught a rerun.
>I had forgotten about the shows horrible final season with big bang Katie.

The show really did go downhill without Shannon on it. She kept
steering the show in the right direction but obviously not what Milano
wanted.

Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-02-21 22:59:00 +0000, shawn said:
>
>> On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 14:29:03 -0800, Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>> On 2023-02-21 20:53:45 +0000, anim8rfsk said:
>>>> Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-02-21 18:14:13 +0000, BTR1701 said:
>>>>>> In article <tt2u32$16i55$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In no particular order:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
>>>>>>> was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
>>>>>>> about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
>>>>>>> first place: I just found it intriguing and was very curious to see
>>>>>>> where it was going to go.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I stayed with it longer than I normally would have for Evangeline Lilly.
>>>>>
>>>>> I like "Lost" on balance, but the final season was pretty bad, and the
>>>>> ending was pretty unforgivable.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm pretty much watching THE FLASH out of habit at this point. I really
>>>>>> don't care anything about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most of The C-Wub shows fall into this category. Even "Legacies", which
>>>>> didn't fall apart into s**t like all of the Arrowverse shows did, still
>>>>> declined some with its last couple of seasons.
>>>>>
>>>>> On my list would be:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Vikings: Got worse and worse, post-Ragnar. Post-Lagertha, I didn't
>>>>> even finish it!
>>>>>
>>>>> - Earth: Final Conflict - I stayed with it on and off through the
>>>>> bitter end, but only season #1 was any good. The last few seasons were
>>>>> awful.
>>>>
>>>> The final season is tied with any other nominee for worst season ever
>>>> produced.
>>>>
>>>>> - Mutant X - Anim can joke all he wants, but final post-Lauren Lee
>>>>> Smith, post-John Shea season with Karen Cliche was *terrible*.
>>>>
>>>> Honestly, it wasn’t any worse than the rest of the show.
>>>>
>>>>> - Degrassi - Definitely declined even before the "original" cast
>>>>> departed in season #7 (probably killing off what's his face in season
>>>>> #6(?) was the "jump the shark" moment), and got worse and worse after.
>>>>> Post-Holly J, I think it was pretty much unwatachable.
>>>>>
>>>>> - I'm pretty sure I started hating "Friends" by its last couple of seasons.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there are others that are slipping my mind right now.
>>>>
>>>> You didn’t say anything about Buffy.
>>>
>>> 'Cos it only ran one season!!1! :p
>>>
>>> (Seriously, though - both "Buffy" and "Angel" would qualify for me,
>>> with "Buffy" having the added effect that I also came to despise its
>>> fandom!)
>>
>> I don't feel that Buffy/Angel are on the same level as the others
>> mentioned in this thread. Sure, the quality definitely wasn't the same
>> with Buffy once Joss Whedon essentially left Buffy. While I wasn't
>> against changing up Spike the Spike/Buffy relationship got rough.
>> With Angel I enjoyed most of it except for what they did with Cordelia
>> during her last season. It really felt like the writers had issues
>> with the Charisma and were taking it out on her character.
>
> The declared "metric" was "Shows you grew to hate" - I definitely grew
> to hate "Buffy", and I hated "Angel" immediately after Doyle "died"
> though I had mellowed on it some by its final season.
>
> But both meet the criteria.
>
>

Serious question. Would you have forgiven Angel had they said “we had to
get rid of Doyle because the actor is a suicidal junkie“ rather than “we
had this planned from the beginning“? Or would you have then just hated
them for torpedoing Doyle?

I liked the loss of Doyle. I think Wesley the rogue watcher demon hunter
was a much better replacement, and I think the death of Doyle set the stage
for this series where the lead was immortal, but any of his friends could
die. Doyle, Cordelia, Fred, Wesley…

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

On 2/22/2023 8:30 AM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>
> KEVIN SORBO has been and continues to be quite busy, albeit mostly in stuff
> I’ve never heard of, much of which would be crazy religious things based on
> the titles.
> Hey, I had forgotten he was the earlier Middleman character on THE
> MIDDLEMAN!
>
>
MIDDLEMAN!

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:30:00 -0700, anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net>
wrote:

>Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-02-21 20:03:19 +0000, shawn said:
>>
>>> On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 11:52:49 -0800, Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-02-21 18:14:13 +0000, BTR1701 said:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <tt2u32$16i55$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This article just came up in my newsfeed and it was very much on-topic
>>>>>> for this newsgroup:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishabassi/popular-tv-shows-people-hated
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For what it's worth, I actually stayed to the end of some of the series
>>>>>> on their list, including Orange is the New Black, Weeds, and Dexter. But
>>>>>> I only ever watched two episodes of Walking Dead and was bored to tears
>>>>>> for both of those so never went past that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, what would be on YOUR list of shows that you loved and then hated?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have the time to think of 25 out of all the shows I've ever seen
>>>>>> and any list I made would probably change any given day but I'll mention
>>>>>> a few that come to mind off the top of my head.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In no particular order:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
>>>>>> was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
>>>>>> about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
>>>>>> first place: I just found it intriguing and was very curious to see
>>>>>> where it was going to go.
>>>>>
>>>>> I stayed with it longer than I normally would have for Evangeline Lilly.
>>>>
>>>> I like "Lost" on balance, but the final season was pretty bad, and the
>>>> ending was pretty unforgivable.
>>>
>>> Especially after spending so long trying to sell the viewers on how
>>> there is a plan that will bring all that we saw together in the end.
>>> It was a weak hand waving ending that didn't justify the hype.
>>>
>>>>> I'm pretty much watching THE FLASH out of habit at this point. I really
>>>>> don't care anything about it.
>>>>
>>>> Most of The C-Wub shows fall into this category. Even "Legacies", which
>>>> didn't fall apart into s**t like all of the Arrowverse shows did, still
>>>> declined some with its last couple of seasons.
>>>>
>>>> On my list would be:
>>>>
>>>> - Vikings: Got worse and worse, post-Ragnar. Post-Lagertha, I didn't
>>>> even finish it!
>>>>
>>>> - Earth: Final Conflict - I stayed with it on and off through the
>>>> bitter end, but only season #1 was any good. The last few seasons were
>>>> awful.
>>>
>>> Yeah, I can agree with this as someone that watched every episode.
>>>
>>>> - Mutant X - Anim can joke all he wants, but final post-Lauren Lee
>>>> Smith, post-John Shea season with Karen Cliche was *terrible*.
>>>
>>> I honestly can't remember enough of how the story went to say. So it
>>> likely wasn't horrible enough to leave an indelible mark in my memory,
>>> but also was not good enough for me to remember it either. Mostly I
>>> just remember Lauren Lee Smith as being awfully cute.
>>>
>>>
>>>> - Degrassi - Definitely declined even before the "original" cast
>>>> departed in season #7 (probably killing off what's his face in season
>>>> #6(?) was the "jump the shark" moment), and got worse and worse after.
>>>> Post-Holly J, I think it was pretty much unwatachable.
>>>
>>> Never did watch this show.
>>>
>>>> - I'm pretty sure I started hating "Friends" by its last couple of seasons.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure there are others that are slipping my mind right now.
>>>
>>> ANDROMEDA would be another one that followed the EFC development.
>>> Weren't both of them being impacted by Tribune? Though I suppose
>>> ANDROMEDA was hurt more by Kevin Sorbo than any other production
>>> issues.
>>
>> Yes, in fact "Andromeda" is the prototypical example of this - like I
>> said elsewhere, I dropped the show cold when they wrote out Tyr, and
>> never looked back.
>>
>> But it was declining fast even before Tyr left...
>
>That reminds me. As much as I hate to say it as it’s still the second best
>Star Trek series:
>Deep Space 9
>They kill off Jadzia Dax, turn Gul Dukat psychotically evil, and have Ben
>Sisko kill himself, completely undermining the legacy of their best episode
>“the visitor“
>What the hell were they thinking?

I must have missed this.

>And try to imagine how much my spellchecker hated that last paragraph, and
>how many times I had to fix the names and it probably still won’t come
>through right.
>
>Oh! Knight Rider. ‘Nuff said.
>
>And perhaps the most egregious example of them all:
>AIRWOLF
>For that one we have no one but Canadia to blame.
>“Let’s underbid the Americans to make another season and save the money by
>not having the helicopter, eh?“

Another that I must have missed. I remember watching AIRWOLF when
there was a helicopter in the show but not a show without a
helicopter.

>
>>
>> Basically, nearly any show that ran too many seasons will end up in
>> this category.
>>
>> "Gossip Girl" (the original) and definitely PLL (Bitches!) belong in
>> here too. Maybe "The OC" as well.
>>
>>
>
>I am always fascinated by the shows that turn to crap and then managed to
>get better. There are so few of them!
>
>LOST IN SPACE (1964). Its second season is unwatchable, but there are a few
>gems in season three.
>
>THE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. Season three was the goofy Batman inspired season
>but they actually tried to get back to being semi-serious in season four.
>It was too little too late though.

On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 10:00:50 -0700, anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net>
wrote:

>Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-02-21 22:59:00 +0000, shawn said:
>>
>>> On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 14:29:03 -0800, Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 2023-02-21 20:53:45 +0000, anim8rfsk said:
>>>>> Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-02-21 18:14:13 +0000, BTR1701 said:
>>>>>>> In article <tt2u32$16i55$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In no particular order:
>>>>>>>>

>>>>> You didn’t say anything about Buffy.
>>>>
>>>> 'Cos it only ran one season!!1! :p
>>>>
>>>> (Seriously, though - both "Buffy" and "Angel" would qualify for me,
>>>> with "Buffy" having the added effect that I also came to despise its
>>>> fandom!)
>>>
>>> I don't feel that Buffy/Angel are on the same level as the others
>>> mentioned in this thread. Sure, the quality definitely wasn't the same
>>> with Buffy once Joss Whedon essentially left Buffy. While I wasn't
>>> against changing up Spike the Spike/Buffy relationship got rough.
>>> With Angel I enjoyed most of it except for what they did with Cordelia
>>> during her last season. It really felt like the writers had issues
>>> with the Charisma and were taking it out on her character.
>>
>> The declared "metric" was "Shows you grew to hate" - I definitely grew
>> to hate "Buffy", and I hated "Angel" immediately after Doyle "died"
>> though I had mellowed on it some by its final season.
>>
>> But both meet the criteria.
>>
>>
>
>Serious question. Would you have forgiven Angel had they said “we had to
>get rid of Doyle because the actor is a suicidal junkie“ rather than “we
>had this planned from the beginning“? Or would you have then just hated
>them for torpedoing Doyle?
>
>I liked the loss of Doyle. I think Wesley the rogue watcher demon hunter
>was a much better replacement, and I think the death of Doyle set the stage
>for this series where the lead was immortal, but any of his friends could
>die. Doyle, Cordelia, Fred, Wesley…

Bringing Wesley in was a fine addition. I liked Doyle but was okay
with his loss as it showed that there were real stakes in the show.
What I didn't like was the pretense that his loss was planned from the
beginning. No need to get into why the show was parting ways with the
actor but also no need to try and gaslight the viewers.

nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com wrote:
> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>> Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:

>>> My list of shows I loved but then hated:
>>>
>>> LOST:
>>> I loved the story and mysteries and attention needed to watch, but by
>>> third season, realized they had been lying about having a five year plan,
>>> a la B5, for the show and their other bullshittery. I still become very
>>> angry about it if I see a rerun while channel-surfing.
>>
>>Yes
>
>I have no interest in every rewatching this show even though the first
>season had many lovely ladies. I never truly hated the show but did
>hate the ending.

I might have hate-watched the ending to silence the completist in me.
I have no recollection of how it ended, but I hated it.

>>> HEROES:
>>> I loved the first season but quit watching the second when they made the
>>> heroes' sacrifice to stop Skylar pointless.
>>
>>I quit watching somewhere around the pilot
>
>I watched it till the end. That's part of my curse because if I get
>into a show I find myself wanting to see it till the end. That said
>the show certainly fell apart over time.
>
>>> THE WALKING DEAD:
>>> I loved this show but hated how 1) the crew were goldfish, 2) The
>>> Governor kept reappearing, and C) Ninja Walkers.
>>>
>>> Honorable mention:
>
>Yet another show where I watched the first couple of seasons and got
>behind so I've just recorded all of the episodes (or really just
>downloaded them) with the intent to get back to it eventually. I'm not
>so sure how I'm going to like the Governor story line even though the
>actor is great.

It was pretty good at first, but then it became tedious and repetiitive.
I hated how it ended with uvz pbzvat onpx jvgu n ohyyqbmre naq qrfgeblvat
gur cevfba fb ab bar pbhyq hfr vg nsgre abg orvat vaivgrq gb wbva gurz, gura,
nsgre gur znva punef syrq gur oernpurq cevfba, gurl ohzcrq vagb uvz ba gur
ebnq jvgu n arj frg bs fhobeqvangrf jub unq bayl urneq uvf fvqr bs gur fgbel.
>>> CHARMED:
>>> This was a fun show until Allysa Milano got Shannan kicked off the show
>>> and made her character a Mary Sue HR nightmare.
>>
>>I never watched the show until Rose joined so for me Shannon was always the
>>odd character out if I caught a rerun.
>>I had forgotten about the shows horrible final season with big bang Katie.

AKA "Maggot-Neck", AKA "The Retarded Bimbo".

>The show really did go downhill without Shannon on it. She kept steering
>the show in the right direction but obviously not what Milano wanted.

What Milano wanted was affirmation that she was a sexy smart woman because it
seemed to come up every ep or so.

I am pretty sure there is no "o" in her name because it became a joke on the
CHARMED forum on TV wo P to highlight the "o".

--
Let's go Brandon!

nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com wrote:
> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:

>>That reminds me. As much as I hate to say it as it’s still the second best
>>Star Trek series:
>>Deep Space 9
>>They kill off Jadzia Dax, turn Gul Dukat psychotically evil, and have Ben
>>Sisko kill himself, completely undermining the legacy of their best episode
>>"The visitor".
>>What the hell were they thinking?
>
>I must have missed this.

Actually, they replaced the actress playing Jadzia and effectively made her a
new char, Gul Dukat went insane and contacted the anti-Prophets to destroy the
Wormhole (or vica versa), and Cisco joined the Prophets in the Wormhole for an
indefinite period of time, but time doesn't exist there, so we don;t know what
that means.

>>Oh! Knight Rider. ‘Nuff said.

How so? It was always a cheesy show.

--
Let's go Brandon!

In article <tt37eh$17i6q$1@dont-email.me>, IJBall@mac.invalid wrote:

>On my list would be:
>
> - Earth: Final Conflict - I stayed with it on and off through the
>bitter end, but only season #1 was any good. The last few seasons were
>awful.

That show had so much potential and then they pissed it away. I was watching
it awhile on PLUTO TV and commented here.

> - Mutant X - Anim can joke all he wants, but final post-Lauren Lee
>Smith, post-John Shea season with Karen Cliche was *terrible*.

I enjoyed the show for being a mindless X-Men ripoff and was dissapointed
when they replaced Lauran Lee Smith because in the season finale, there were
big hints about them doing a "Dark Phoenix" type storyline with her.

I never liked her replacement.

--
Let's go Brandon!

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 2/22/2023 8:30 AM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>>
>> KEVIN SORBO has been and continues to be quite busy, albeit mostly in stuff
>> I’ve never heard of, much of which would be crazy religious things based on
>> the titles.
>> Hey, I had forgotten he was the earlier Middleman character on THE
>> MIDDLEMAN!
>>
>>
> MIDDLEMAN!
>
>

Then kew. :)

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 07:50:38 -0700, anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
>>> no_offline_contact@example.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> This article just came up in my newsfeed and it was very much on-topic
>>>> for this newsgroup:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishabassi/popular-tv-shows-people-hated
>>>>
>>>> For what it's worth, I actually stayed to the end of some of the series
>>>> on their list, including Orange is the New Black, Weeds, and Dexter. But
>>>> I only ever watched two episodes of Walking Dead and was bored to tears
>>>> for both of those so never went past that.
>>>>
>>>> Now, what would be on YOUR list of shows that you loved and then hated?
>>>>
>>>> I don't have the time to think of 25 out of all the shows I've ever seen
>>>> and any list I made would probably change any given day but I'll mention
>>>> a few that come to mind off the top of my head.
>>>>
>>>> In no particular order:
>>>>
>>>> Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
>>>> was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
>>>> about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
>>>> first place
>>>
>>> So why is it on your list? :-)
>>>
>>>> Killing Eve - I watched the first three seasons and but bailed when the
>>>> Season 4 premiere was way too bizarre for my tastes. Again, I never
>>>> really loved it
>
> I am only on the second season. It's been months since I watched an
> episode but I'll eventually get back to it. I don't hate the second
> season but it doesn't feel as engaging as the first season.
>

I didn’t like the switch in emphasis from the serial killer to the cop.

>>> So why did you mention it? :-)
>
> It's part of a plan to grow to hate the show?
>
>>> My list of shows I loved but then hated:
>>>
>>> LOST:
>>> I loved the story and mysteries and attention needed to watch, but by third
>>> season, realized they had been lying about having a five year plan, a la B5,
>>> for the show and their other bullshittery. I still become very angry about it
>>> if I see a rerun while channel-surfing.
>>
>> Yes
>
> I have no interest in every rewatching this show even though the first
> season had many lovely ladies. I never truly hated the show but did
> hate the ending.
>
>>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> HEROES:
>>> I loved the first season but quit watching the second when they made the
>>> heroes' sacrifice to stop Skylar pointless.
>>
>> I quit watching somewhere around the pilot
>
> I watched it till the end. That's part of my curse because if I get
> into a show I find myself wanting to see it till the end. That said
> the show certainly fell apart over time.

I didn’t like the Asian guy in the pilot and he was a complete dealbreaker
on Hawaii Five-0.

>
>
>>>
>>> THE WALKING DEAD:
>>> I loved this show but hated how 1) the crew were goldfish, 2) The Governor
>>> kept reappearing, and C) Ninja Walkers.
>>>
>>> Honorable mention:
>
> Yet another show where I watched the first couple of seasons and got
> behind so I've just recorded all of the episodes (or really just
> downloaded them) with the intent to get back to it eventually. I'm not
> so sure how I'm going to like the Governor story line even though the
> actor is great.
>
>>> CHARMED:
>>> This was a fun show until Allysa Milano got Shannan kicked off the show and
>>> made her character a Mary Sue HR nightmare.
>>
>> I never watched the show until Rose joined so for me Shannon was always the
>> odd character out if I caught a rerun.
>> I had forgotten about the shows horrible final season with big bang Katie.
>
> The show really did go downhill without Shannon on it. She kept
> steering the show in the right direction but obviously not what Milano
> wanted.
>
>
>
>

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:30:00 -0700, anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2023-02-21 20:03:19 +0000, shawn said:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 11:52:49 -0800, Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2023-02-21 18:14:13 +0000, BTR1701 said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <tt2u32$16i55$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This article just came up in my newsfeed and it was very much on-topic
>>>>>>> for this newsgroup:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishabassi/popular-tv-shows-people-hated
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For what it's worth, I actually stayed to the end of some of the series
>>>>>>> on their list, including Orange is the New Black, Weeds, and Dexter. But
>>>>>>> I only ever watched two episodes of Walking Dead and was bored to tears
>>>>>>> for both of those so never went past that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now, what would be on YOUR list of shows that you loved and then hated?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't have the time to think of 25 out of all the shows I've ever seen
>>>>>>> and any list I made would probably change any given day but I'll mention
>>>>>>> a few that come to mind off the top of my head.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In no particular order:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lost - I only stayed to the end of Season 4 but at least half of that
>>>>>>> was a hard slog before I finally realized the I no longer remotely cared
>>>>>>> about the show. Mind you, I don't think I ever LOVED the show in the
>>>>>>> first place: I just found it intriguing and was very curious to see
>>>>>>> where it was going to go.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I stayed with it longer than I normally would have for Evangeline Lilly.
>>>>>
>>>>> I like "Lost" on balance, but the final season was pretty bad, and the
>>>>> ending was pretty unforgivable.
>>>>
>>>> Especially after spending so long trying to sell the viewers on how
>>>> there is a plan that will bring all that we saw together in the end.
>>>> It was a weak hand waving ending that didn't justify the hype.
>>>>
>>>>>> I'm pretty much watching THE FLASH out of habit at this point. I really
>>>>>> don't care anything about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most of The C-Wub shows fall into this category. Even "Legacies", which
>>>>> didn't fall apart into s**t like all of the Arrowverse shows did, still
>>>>> declined some with its last couple of seasons.
>>>>>
>>>>> On my list would be:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Vikings: Got worse and worse, post-Ragnar. Post-Lagertha, I didn't
>>>>> even finish it!
>>>>>
>>>>> - Earth: Final Conflict - I stayed with it on and off through the
>>>>> bitter end, but only season #1 was any good. The last few seasons were
>>>>> awful.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, I can agree with this as someone that watched every episode.
>>>>
>>>>> - Mutant X - Anim can joke all he wants, but final post-Lauren Lee
>>>>> Smith, post-John Shea season with Karen Cliche was *terrible*.
>>>>
>>>> I honestly can't remember enough of how the story went to say. So it
>>>> likely wasn't horrible enough to leave an indelible mark in my memory,
>>>> but also was not good enough for me to remember it either. Mostly I
>>>> just remember Lauren Lee Smith as being awfully cute.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> - Degrassi - Definitely declined even before the "original" cast
>>>>> departed in season #7 (probably killing off what's his face in season
>>>>> #6(?) was the "jump the shark" moment), and got worse and worse after.
>>>>> Post-Holly J, I think it was pretty much unwatachable.
>>>>
>>>> Never did watch this show.
>>>>
>>>>> - I'm pretty sure I started hating "Friends" by its last couple of seasons.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there are others that are slipping my mind right now.
>>>>
>>>> ANDROMEDA would be another one that followed the EFC development.
>>>> Weren't both of them being impacted by Tribune? Though I suppose
>>>> ANDROMEDA was hurt more by Kevin Sorbo than any other production
>>>> issues.
>>>
>>> Yes, in fact "Andromeda" is the prototypical example of this - like I
>>> said elsewhere, I dropped the show cold when they wrote out Tyr, and
>>> never looked back.
>>>
>>> But it was declining fast even before Tyr left...
>>
>> That reminds me. As much as I hate to say it as it’s still the second best
>> Star Trek series:
>> Deep Space 9
>> They kill off Jadzia Dax, turn Gul Dukat psychotically evil, and have Ben
>> Sisko kill himself, completely undermining the legacy of their best episode
>> “the visitor“
>> What the hell were they thinking?
>
> I must have missed this.
>
>> And try to imagine how much my spellchecker hated that last paragraph, and
>> how many times I had to fix the names and it probably still won’t come
>> through right.
>>
>> Oh! Knight Rider. ‘Nuff said.
>>
>> And perhaps the most egregious example of them all:
>> AIRWOLF
>> For that one we have no one but Canadia to blame.
>> “Let’s underbid the Americans to make another season and save the money by
>> not having the helicopter, eh?“
>
> Another that I must have missed. I remember watching AIRWOLF when
> there was a helicopter in the show but not a show without a
> helicopter.

Season four, CBS wanted budget cuts and Belisarius wouldn’t do it and the
Canadians said they would and TV guide applauded them for making cheaper
TV.

They killed off Hawk and replaced him with the fourth actor. I think to
play his long missing brother, who turned out he was actually undercover as
a POW in Vietnam for the last 30 years or something stupid. They killed off
Santini by blowing up his helicopter. They forgot about sweet britches. And
they moved production to Canadia and didn’t take the helicopter with them.
Oh yeah, and they got rid of Alex Cord by sending him to Europe, and they
got just everything slightly wrong, all the characters names, the
organization names. It wasn’t like they made the changes because they had
to it was just like they hadn’t been paying attention.
The new crew included Sinjin and the vampire from forever night and a
superfluous black guy and Michele Scarabelli as Santini‘s niece, who
supposedly had always been there, and we just hadn’t noticed. They mocked
up an interior of the copter that literally had old easy chairs they picked
up in a dumpster somewhere and in unmodified Bell 222 they used for the
outside that for God sakes had a freaking rear door. For the most part, it
was just stock footage from the real show. Also, the Lair looks like the
Batcave, with colored lights and old computers, everywhere, and like
Santini‘s niece, it was supposed to have always looked like that, and we
weren’t supposed to have noticed.

There’s one entire episode where they’re trying to figure out where a bad
guy is in a building and they’re supposedly just hovering out there in
whisper mode in the dark so that we never see Airwolf and they’re just
peeping Tom at people through the windows.

A lot of places don’t even consider it Airwolf season four but a rip off
show.

Oh, and they used really cheesy Ampex digital optics effects (accompanied
by bad synthesizer, sound effects) to just make crap fly around on the
screen or add faux shaky cam to make it look like people aren’t just
sitting in dumpster chairs.

>
>>
>>>
>>> Basically, nearly any show that ran too many seasons will end up in
>>> this category.
>>>
>>> "Gossip Girl" (the original) and definitely PLL (Bitches!) belong in
>>> here too. Maybe "The OC" as well.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I am always fascinated by the shows that turn to crap and then managed to
>> get better. There are so few of them!
>>
>> LOST IN SPACE (1964). Its second season is unwatchable, but there are a few
>> gems in season three.
>>
>> THE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. Season three was the goofy Batman inspired season
>> but they actually tried to get back to being semi-serious in season four.
>> It was too little too late though.
>

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 10:00:50 -0700, anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2023-02-21 22:59:00 +0000, shawn said:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 14:29:03 -0800, Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-02-21 20:53:45 +0000, anim8rfsk said:
>>>>>> Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2023-02-21 18:14:13 +0000, BTR1701 said:
>>>>>>>> In article <tt2u32$16i55$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In no particular order:
>>>>>>>>>
>
>>>>>> You didn’t say anything about Buffy.
>>>>>
>>>>> 'Cos it only ran one season!!1! :p
>>>>>
>>>>> (Seriously, though - both "Buffy" and "Angel" would qualify for me,
>>>>> with "Buffy" having the added effect that I also came to despise its
>>>>> fandom!)
>>>>
>>>> I don't feel that Buffy/Angel are on the same level as the others
>>>> mentioned in this thread. Sure, the quality definitely wasn't the same
>>>> with Buffy once Joss Whedon essentially left Buffy. While I wasn't
>>>> against changing up Spike the Spike/Buffy relationship got rough.
>>>> With Angel I enjoyed most of it except for what they did with Cordelia
>>>> during her last season. It really felt like the writers had issues
>>>> with the Charisma and were taking it out on her character.
>>>
>>> The declared "metric" was "Shows you grew to hate" - I definitely grew
>>> to hate "Buffy", and I hated "Angel" immediately after Doyle "died"
>>> though I had mellowed on it some by its final season.
>>>
>>> But both meet the criteria.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Serious question. Would you have forgiven Angel had they said “we had to
>> get rid of Doyle because the actor is a suicidal junkie“ rather than “we
>> had this planned from the beginning“? Or would you have then just hated
>> them for torpedoing Doyle?
>>
>> I liked the loss of Doyle. I think Wesley the rogue watcher demon hunter
>> was a much better replacement, and I think the death of Doyle set the stage
>> for this series where the lead was immortal, but any of his friends could
>> die. Doyle, Cordelia, Fred, Wesley…
>
> Bringing Wesley in was a fine addition. I liked Doyle but was okay
> with his loss as it showed that there were real stakes in the show.
> What I didn't like was the pretense that his loss was planned from the
> beginning. No need to get into why the show was parting ways with the
> actor but also no need to try and gaslight the viewers.
>

Fair enough

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.