https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gyL5ie6-x0

On Monday, January 30, 2023 at 9:54:08 PM UTC-5, jdcha...@gmail.com wrote:
> spamsnip

Hi Jordy!

THE SAGA OF JORDAN T. CHASESCOTT

Uncle Isaac took his belt
And gave Young Jordy 40 welts.
Jordy grew to like the whacks
And Uncle Isaac’s touching acts.

Isaac Chase thought that Jordy was cute
'Specially dressed in his new birthday suit,
Isaac squeezed his love handles
Then blew out his candles,
Bent over and let out a "Toot!"

Isaac pulled his nephew's pid
Sucked him dry then tongued his hole;
Nephew Jordy was just a kid
When he first straddled Isaac's pole.

Isaac rode Jordy bareback at seven
And cornholed him big-time at eight
He left him creampied at eleven
And went back home to masturbate.

Isaac groped little Jordy on Friday
Isaac sucked him off Saturday night
Isaac fucked Jordy six times on Sunday
Yeah, his weekend was going alright.

There's only on "t" in "Sonnet."

Isaac nailed Jordy on summer's day.
Beneath the willow by the backdoor gate:
He squeezed his lovebuds, then he had his way
But quick release cut all too short the date;
Sometime too hot the elder Chase becomes
And often spills his load ere passion's dimm'd;
Where is the joy in picking Jordy's plums
Or planting kisses in his grass untrimm'd
When shorts are cream'd and flaccid members fail?
Thou Jordy's willing, Ike gave up the ghost;
Still discontent, he fondles Jordy's tale,
For tis the ass enamors him the most:
So long as Isaac still has eyes to see,
He'll strap one one and stick it to Jordy.

Isaac chased boys when he was a toddler
He chased toddlers when he went school,
He made brownies with them as a young man,
Stirred their pudding until he would drool.

Isaac chased little boys on the playground
Although he was a middle aged man,
Donkey punched till his mudpacker turned brown
Tho he preferred to say it was tan.
The Jordy Factor
a poem by Will Dockery as told to NancyGene

Jordy’s a good sub for dead Lady K
He jiggles his ass and says it’s foreplay
with my massive moobs that even young Clay
has to admit that he’d like to sashay
in the chorus that kicks on LeGents parquet
floor where Jordy and I rolled ‘round in May
when he visited us to show us his fey
manners and though his family’s rich, hey,
I’m not too proud to say that I’d lay
him for free and he won’t have to pay
for extras like hi there’s, night-nights and oy veys.

Isaac Chase was a pixie I knew
Who diddled his widdle nephew,
Jordy pulled Isaac's pud
But his pud was a dud
And now poor Isaac's sack has turned blue.

When Jordy was just a wee laddie
He'd pull down his pants for his daddy,
Uncle paid him a call
And buggered him raw
And Jordy cried "Uncle Ike had me."

Isaac had a young nephew named Jordy
Whose tuchus he simply adored, he
Got Jordy to bare it
That he might then share it
And buggered the boy while he roared "Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!"

Uncle Isaac didn't care for his mommy,
His classmates found him a bit balmy;
It was said that the lad
Flicked his Bic for his dad:
Now chows on Nephew Jordy's shalomi.

Uncle Isaac desired little boys
He thought Jordy had exquisite poise
For a boy not yet ten
(He preferred boys to men)
And a man must have what he enjoys.

Little Jordy was sugar and spice
So his old uncle didn't think twice
About dipping his pole
In young Jordy's piehole,
Boston cream never seemed worth the price.

Uncle Isaac's an internet troll
Who fingered his nephew's dunghole,
Isaac stuck in his thumb
And made Jordy cum
And cried "Hola, Will -- I'm on a role!"

Isaac corked up Jordy Chase's bunghole,
Chocolate cha-cha'd til morning was nigh;
Gave his nephew a sloppy Picaso
He's a fart knockin', mud packin' guy.

Jordy Chase bought his uncle a butt plug
In the hope that he'd leave him alone;
Isaac plugged up his hole
And such joy filled his soul
That he plugged Jordy's hole with his own.

Uncle Isaac's a middle aged twit
Who's been found competently unfit,
For it's said he enjoys
Gallivanting with boys
And dipping his dick in their shit.

Isaac buggered Jordy in the bedroom
Isaac buggered Jordy in the car
Isaac buggered Jordy in the Men's Room
Of LeGents', Shadowville's favorite bar.

Uncle Isaac chased Jordy around his first crib,
Uncle Isaac "fed" Jordy and splooged on his bib,
Isaac changed Jordy's diapers for open-crotch hose
Then he buggered the toddler and jizzed on his nose.

Isaac cornswabbled his nephew's dinky
Pulled his joystick as if he played Pong;
Dipped his poo jabber till it got stinky
And nicknamed his dong "Donkey Kong."

When Jordan Chasescott was a lad
His Uncle Ike wanted him bad,
With the youth in his sights
Isaac gave up his nights
To baby sit straddling his 'nads.

Uncle Isaac was more like an ant
Who would crawl down young Jordy’s pants.
Jordy’d wiggle and scratch
But Isaac attached
Himself with coagulants.

Uncle Isaac ignored his niece, Judy,
Who didn’t have quite the same booty.
So Judy was spared,
And stood there and stared,
While Jordy got it in the patootie.

When Jordy went on Price is Right
His bung-hole shown like a nightlight.
He said it was Uncle
Ike and Garfuckles
Who implanted in him a Lite-Brite.

Uncle Isaac hosted family for Easter.
He told his sister he’d feast her.
They ate honey baked ham
And rack of young lamb
While Isaac dined on Jordy’s keister.

Isaac Chased Jordan Chasescott
From when he was just a young tot.
Isaac gave him a ball
and that wasn’t all,
for his undies had X marks the spot.

Uncle Isaac would pat Jordy’s buttock
And soothe him to sleep with some smut talk.
As Joey took vids
And entertained bids,
Little Jordy’s cradle would rock.

Uncle Isaac said let’s play Cowboys,
For riding is one of my joys.
I’ll be Roy, you’ll be Trigger,
As we gallop with vigor,
And Jordy, you’ll make whinny noise.

Isaac liked his nephew Jordy’s rear view,
From whence Jordy did his #2.
Jordy did #1
And Isaac said, son,
That not what we Commies doo-doo.

Jordan Chasescott had a gluteus--
That Uncle Isaac said was beauteous.
Isaac said drop your pants,
Give your Uncle a chance,
To give you a rub that’s salubrious.

Uncle Isaac and Jordan would read nursery rhymes
About Commies and sex and YouTube crimes.
Jordy learned about jails
And Joey’s porn sales
While Isaac performed pantomimes.

Isaac Chase’s “love dared not speak its name”
So Jordan was written into Internet fame.
Isaac thanked Will and Zod
And committed job fraud
While Jordan Chasescott bore the shame.

Jordan Chasescott was naïve
Of what Isaac hid up his sleeve.
Isaac gave him a bath
While he did the math
That at least he wouldn’t conceive.

Little Jordan Chasescott lost his way.
Uncle Isaac yelled, “I’ll save the day!”
“Take off your pants
And I’ll do a belt Dance
On your butt ‘til you can say
Uncle!”

Jordan Chasescott’s derriere
Would get lots of sun and fresh air.
Uncle Isaac would blow
And Jordan would know
That he didn’t need any beachwear.

Isaac Chase was childlike and hopeless
And hung out with folks who were soapless.
Isaac took Jordy’s hand
And said I’m your man,
But no one can make me grope you less.

Jordan sits in Isaac’s lap while they drive,
Isaac is 49 and Jordy’s 25.
Jordy said it’s U-turn,
Isaac said how I burn
To lay rubber on I-95.

Jordy C. wrote:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gyL5ie6-x0

Quite of ionterest, I am reading the transcript as of now...

**********************************

Transcript

0:00
sitting with me as dr. Herbert minutiae a professor of politics and philosophy at Brandeis University and the author of
0:07
the recent book entitled one-dimensional man published by beacon press and also John Simon who's an editor of New York
0:13
publishing house and we're going to be discussing dr. marcoh whose book one-dimensional man and this is a book
0:20
as I understand it which is about the United States and its general thesis is
0:25
that in certain significant ways we have reached situation or are reaching a
0:30
situation with it which is extremely close to a totalitarian society and I
0:37
think we'll begin by discussing what precisely we mean by this and I want to quote from dr. Marcus's book you're
0:44
right by virtue of the way in his organized his technological base contemporary industrial society tends to
0:51
be totalitarian for totalitarian is not only a terroristic political coordination of society but also a non
0:58
terroristic economic technical coordination which operates through the manipulation of needs by vested
1:05
interests it does precludes the emergence of an effective opposition against the whole not only the specific
1:12
form of government or party rule makes for totalitarianism but also a specific
1:17
system of production and distribution which may well be compatible with a pluralism of parties newspapers
1:23
countervailing powers etc and I wonder if you'd begin by telling us precisely
1:28
what you mean in this sense by totalitarian yes may I begin by a
1:34
qualifying a little what you said I wish only my book total of dear we see a
1:39
United States a deal esse quotation shows with certain tendencies not more
1:47
certain tendencies which I think are observable in the most advanced areas of
1:55
industrial civilization the most advanced area of industrial civilization
2:01
of course is the United States today but even in the United States the tendencies
2:07
to which I point are prevailing if they
2:12
are prevailing at or not simply beginning to show themselves only in certain advanced
2:20
areas meaning as is very known that are still vast regions of under development
2:26
of poverty even in the United States now by a totalitarian I used the term fully
2:34
aware that this might violate certain taboos we are used to apply the term
2:42
totalitarian only to well first the fascist and Nazi society then the
2:49
communist society that is to say we are used to apply the term totalitarian to
2:55
societies under more or less terroristic dictatorship with a one-party system
3:02
with the more or less terroristic elimination of all opposition I believe
3:10
that such a confined restricted use of the term totalitarian is itself
3:16
ideological because it may serve to cover up the fact at least in my opinion
3:23
a fact where totalitarian tendencies are beginning to show even in societies
3:31
which are still democratic which preserves in democratic poses and institutions which have several parties
3:39
which may even have countervailing forces by totalitarian I mean the
3:49
constellation of situation enrich the private as well as public existence of
3:57
man of the individual is controlled is
4:04
exposed to standardised required ways of
4:11
behavior standardized imposed values standardized imposed needs this can be
4:19
done by a private as well as by a public you're cutting it can be done why are
4:25
the correctly Democratic Media of mass communication and so on it is in a way a
4:33
consequence as a quote source of technical formulas which implies mass
4:40
production and mass distribution mass production and mass distribution in turn
4:46
require a considerable degree of standardization a considerable degree of
4:52
submission of the individual to pre given and superimposed values ideas
5:01
aspirations goers and so on is this a necessary condition of this particular productive capacity and system
5:09
well the tale of necessary apply to history is a very question of the term
5:16
we can see in a strict sense if you mean it in the sense of a physical law nothing is necessarily an estimate I do
5:24
think it is the by-product at present inevitable byproduct of the way in which
5:32
technical progress actually has taken place in industrial society and this and
5:40
and this this argument applies as well to societies that are organized and I more or less individualistic basis as
5:47
well as those that are collectivistic aliy organized that is the same critique
5:52
applies as well to the soviet union or to the countries in the Soviet bloc as it does to the United States you would
5:58
you would argue that I would say it applies in the sense that similar tendencies oh I think observable there
6:06
of course was vast differences based on the entirely different foundation and
6:12
organization of the entire economy but in as much as the Soviet Union will very
6:19
soon join the most advanced areas of industrial civilization I think the two
6:25
systems will become more or less assimilated I think I think we want to make clear at this point because you do
6:31
make it clear in your book that you do see differences between the Soviet Union and the United States differences
6:37
and maybe you are a ground away where the obvious difference is that the
6:42
society as I just mentioned is organized on an essentially different basis the
6:49
collective ownership and control of the means of production regardless of whether or not you consider it as
6:55
already socialist or not socialist at all is a sufficiently different form a
7:02
society organized on the basis of private control and ownership of the means of production to make for decisive
7:10
differences in the tendencies of development there is also if there is there not a difference in the legal
7:17
basis of control by the state or is there nobody mid by legal basis well we
7:24
are to some extent individuals and their own participation and their own ability to dissent are protected more in the
7:33
American system than in the Soviet system they are certainly more protected
7:39
they are even institutionalized as the American system they are not institutionalized in the Soviet system
7:45
but precisely here I have my way I have a great fear that this
7:52
institutionalization of civil rights and especially the right and Liberty to dissent is gradually eroded is reduced
8:01
not much at all not by a conspiracy but simply by the
8:06
mechanisms of technical goals within the
8:13
framework of the established institutions which are before we get
8:19
into a discussion of that particular area since we're attempting to define
8:25
your use of totalitarian which I take it is quite different than say call Friedreich's use of the word oh yes I
8:32
wanted to ask about the about the the
8:37
applicability of the concept to the non advanced sectors of the world where
8:44
particularly those countries that are now labeled socialist and are going into four extents planning and and use of many of the
8:52
kinds of controls that you suggest exist in advanced industrial society Ghana Cuba Algeria for example the definition
9:01
begin to apply in these countries as well on these areas that is one of the
9:07
most difficult questions to raise and to answer on the one hand I would say and
9:14
it may sound paradoxical although I don't think it is paradoxical that these
9:19
countries precisely because they are not yet at the advanced stage of
9:26
industrialization where they have to buy all the negative features of this kind
9:34
of industrialization that these countries have a better chance of
9:41
proceeding differently that these countries have a better chance of building form Scott a failure and a more
9:50
human society but there are other impediments here namely that the vast
9:59
majority of these countries is too weak in resources intellectual as well as
10:06
material to do it by themselves they are by themselves as far as I can
10:13
see again with some exceptions incapable of accumulating the funds capital funds
10:21
that would be necessary for development and therefore will have to rely on
10:26
outside help which can come only from the east or from the west and I am a
10:33
friends of less this dependence on outside health would not almost
10:38
inevitably these countries lead along the path that present gone either by the
10:47
east or by serviced so that the idea of a third force is still a more or less a
10:53
utopian idea one more question on in this general area the Isaac torture in
11:02
his book the the great contest where he dealt with with issues of the Cold War
11:09
which were not really central to this discussion suggested that the the
11:15
potential the ultimate potential for freedom in the organization of the in in
11:21
this sense of the totalitarian soviet society was far greater than existed in
11:26
any area of the West because of the of the way in which the controls were applied and were used would you agree
11:33
with this the formulation of mr. Deutsch is I agree up to a very definite point
11:38
if Georgia wants to say that the establishment of a plant society it does
11:46
not have to cope with the vested interests which otherwise stand in the
11:53
way of a utilization of all available resources for the satisfaction of vital
12:00
needs wherever they are still not satisfied rather than proceeding through wastes
12:07
and planned obsolescence if he wants to say that I agree entirely there
12:13
searching a centrally planned society in which the counteracting vested interest
12:19
are indeed eliminated would have a far greater potential to develop humanity
12:26
let's say in short then another society but here I think we have to place the
12:32
development of Soviet society in the actual context of peaceful or rather
12:38
hostile coexistence which means that the Soviet Union - at present sees itself
12:45
committed to divert a vast section of its resources of the social wealth to
12:52
armament production and thereby has to
12:57
impose sacrifices which otherwise would not have to be imposed I think maybe it
13:07
something we got to explore a little bit at this point is is it to go back to this question of the territory and the
13:12
reason I come back to it I think is because it isn't the provocative word to be used in the context of modern American life one of
13:21
the things you talk about in this regard is the range in the nature of choice available in this society and one should
13:30
say I suppose in the first place that it seems that there is a great range of choice to some extent we have to all choose our political candidates and our
13:37
pretty well our political leaders from a range of candidates we choose what the particular job you want to go to what
13:43
education education we want to go to really choose a candidate or are they not chosen for us do i and you won't
13:51
Weber it is choose a candidate which was actually or running order somebody else does a machine or I don't know what do
13:58
it well there is a choice at least between different candidates with different points of view mr. Barry
14:03
Goldwater has a different orientation I believed and then our president Johnson
14:10
yes certainly are these real choices they are real choices wherever you have
14:16
a real difference of opinion now I'm again God you early suspicious
14:23
of the speeches and platforms and programs made before the elections they
14:31
are usually hardly in any relation to what happened after the election if you
14:36
have still a real difference of opinion I would say you indeed have a choice and
14:42
you have freedom of choice but that is precisely what I start to doubt the mere
14:48
fact is that we have two parties does not yet by itself mean that these
14:54
parties differ in the accenture attitudes and opinions there may well be
15:02
differences within one and the same accepted and established framework in
15:08
which case both parties would compete in preserving the existing framework rather
15:16
than working for alternatives if they are any alternatives one of the
15:21
traditional areas of dissent aside from the political arena choice have been the academies and the
15:27
distance of an intellectual community which at times historically has seen
15:32
things differently than the current establishment of a society do you see in
15:39
in the academies the existence of a real dissent and a real opposition of
15:44
alternatives by academies you mean universities colleges and so on yes well
15:53
I would say since this is precisely the field where I do have experience that is
15:59
perhaps today the area which is still the freest of order my long experience
16:07
with students has shown me that these students at least when they enter the
16:13
university are still entirely open minded that they think by themselves
16:20
that they preserve their open mind that they are highly critical and that's a
16:28
really talk at least if they know that they can talk that depends on the with
16:34
whom they talk gradually however the dire need makes itself first to look for
16:42
a job they know perfectly well that if they go on like that if they continue to
16:48
have really dissenting opinions and not only slight differences in opinion it
16:53
may be very difficult for them to find a job and that sooner or later they have
16:59
to adopt modes of behavior in which at least they conceal the dissent or
17:07
express it in such a way that it does not cause a scandal and I certainly
17:13
don't blame them for doing it but is this really is this really sufficient to explain a lack of this and
17:19
there have been scholars and intellectuals who have been able to take a dissenting position in terms of
17:24
publication and one thinks of individuals like Searight Mills and and in a much different sense and in a much
17:30
more popular sense Vance Packard how would you account for the existence of these people and how would you account
17:37
for the fact that there are not more likely I would not I say and I don't think I did say that
17:44
we have no dissent and what I did say and what I mean and what I would like to
17:50
repeat is we have a considerable amount of dissent we can afford this dissent
17:58
because it remains completely and entirely in effective we can afford to
18:07
have C right minutes we can afford to let Vance Packard say things which
18:14
formally would have been very meticulously considered because our
18:22
society is so strong so cohesive so a powerful that these revelations don't do
18:31
it any harm and in a sense that is good but in another sense and perhaps and the
18:38
deeper sentence is very bad John YES on the question I have two questions really
18:44
but first I'd like to ask you about the particular phenomenon of Vance Packard uh he sells in the hundreds of thousands
18:54
of copies and is in his widely read and
18:59
and yet seems to have no real influence in the society it's the kind of thing
19:04
that just slips off the surface that it makes perhaps a momentary impression and
19:10
disappears and of course in the case of see right mills professor mills wrote a
19:17
book club listen Yankee which sold over 400,000 copies and was read as I noticed
19:22
by Subway's by secretaries writing on the subway and yet again made no
19:27
impression the society seems not only confident to allow dissenters to exist
19:34
but to allow them to be fairly widely disseminated in some cases what how
19:41
would you want to comment on the phenomenon of the lack of impression of these people in the end the processes
19:47
and devices by with which this is accomplished yes because I believe there's another in
19:53
rushon which overrides and we consent in the last analysis destroys as the or
20:01
mate it makes impotent as the impressions left as these books there is name is the
20:07
impression that that never mind after our this society functions
20:13
beautifully and efficiently it has succeeded in vastly increasing astonied
20:21
of living in distributing its benefits over larger section of the former
20:27
underprivileged population we still have these large areas of poverty but nothing
20:36
proves that these areas cannot sooner or later also be taken care off
20:42
so what these people reveal and indict are simply byproducts of the famous
20:54
affluent society byproducts which are present we have to cope with but which
21:00
are not really in any way serious and dangerous the the event in the in the
21:07
recent past that seems most to bear this out it seems to me it was the
21:13
assassination of the president where there existed at least the opportunity
21:20
for an act and and the consequences of
21:25
the active to have a deep impress on the American people and yet it was as if the
21:31
the display of that for days was like another television rugged similar to
21:37
show exact which we had after four days it was completely incorporated into the daily business of life there was a new
21:44
president things are going on yes I'm well what I wanted to ask you was to
21:50
perhaps comment a little bit more on the the the specific techniques and methods
21:55
since the the mass communications industry plays such a large role in this
22:01
whole process would you care to comment on that
22:06
yes but again I don't want to make the impression that I consider the only
22:13
thing as a conspiracy once a part of the media of mass communication we have a
22:20
conspiratorial aspect they are to only a remind you of see a set of the frame of
22:27
self-censorship which is exercised by the press by the movie industry whatever
22:33
it is a self-censorship far more effective and far more efficient than
22:38
any state instituted censor that is not the point I think that these are all
22:46
these developments have a very rational basis namely precisely let our system
22:56
works and because it works because it is so productive because it distributes
23:04
such benefits we repress the pious which we pay for this affluence a world which
23:12
by the way I would only use a in quotation marks it is this repression it is the repression of the price it cost
23:19
the sacrifices that are involved which
23:25
is actually that what bothers me most raises a question because thus far even
23:31
speaking about such here again I use quotation marks intangibles in quotation
23:37
marks is the range of choice available not being truly a meaningful choice and the social sciences and the academic
23:45
institutions while tolerating some dissent nonetheless not really participating in the development and
23:51
movement of the society what's wrong with the society as it now stands is there a need to change the society
23:57
I mean don't after all we have haven't we if not if we haven't achieved utopia
24:03
aren't we getting close to reaching utopia at least in terms of the production of material goods and
24:09
physical comfort well that question leads to Z what I consider the calls or
24:15
who at problem rods in a rather large cause of mine as
24:21
universities a question it was a kind of examination question I asked the
24:27
students I want to change I want you to tell me what is wrong was a society I never got an answer
24:33
nobody could or nobody dare to tell me what is actually wrong with a society did the students want the course and
24:39
knows I didn't because again I completely understand why they didn't is
24:44
I want to tell me or didn't know what is wrong with it is an T I have to become a
24:52
little philosophical and even a little utopian for me the world utopia makes no
24:59
sense because in my view there's nothing today which could be a reason to be
25:04
called utopia mankind has reached a stage where if it wanted to it could actually within a
25:11
relatively short time translate into reality even the most utopian idea so
25:18
the term utopia again is a subterfuge
25:23
what as long as a society is that it retains that it perpetuates the struggle
25:31
for existence tall frustration waste
25:39
although all the intellectual and material capabilities are there to
25:47
pacify this table before existence in the international arena as well as
25:53
within the nation and force a private individual and by a pacification of the
26:01
struggle for existence I mean something I think very concrete I expressed it in
26:07
the phrase and I think your listener will listen as we know what I'm talking
26:14
about the abolition of alienated labor we have reached a stage where industrial
26:21
civilization really could reduce working time to such an extent that the
26:28
traditional proportion between working time and free timelessly worst that free time becomes
26:34
full time and working time marginal time this would involve a complete
26:42
transvaluation of values it would cancel
26:47
some of the most cherished abuse of the established organization for example the
26:54
need for earning a living instead of making life and end in itself and not a
27:01
means to attain an end which is either never attained or only in an age where
27:06
you cannot enjoy it anymore this I think today is the alternative and this art relative is systematically
27:14
again not in terms of a conspiracy about objectively prevented by the way in
27:23
which we continue as he established direction of progress well there are two
27:28
points there and it would be fair to rephrase the first part of that to say in a kind of shorthand sense that while
27:36
we have the possibility of living within a society of Plenty the society is still organized as if it were a society of
27:43
scarcity no for one very simple reason
27:49
you don't need plenty in order to have a humane society I would even go so far
27:57
and there again you will have to protect me I would even be a good so far as to
28:03
say that one of the crimes of our present area you are is that we have too
28:10
much there in a situation where the vast majority of the people of the earth have
28:16
to litter so it is not a question of Plenty well let me change to other than the comparison between enough we had the
28:23
potential of developing a society based on enough and we're still living as a society based on scarcity that's correct
28:31
now the second part of that the second part of what you just said can I interrupt you I'm a question of enough
28:38
and scarcity isn't it also true that
28:44
that the the concept of scarcity doesn't apply because the the need to waste is
28:52
so paramount injustice society certainly the need to waste as paramount as a need
28:58
to waste is absolutely essential because it is a need for waste which in turn
29:06
perpetuates the need for earning a living the need for growth for doing
29:12
work which in fact technically is already superfluous can we make you into
29:19
a bit of a visionary and ask you to discuss what the nature of a society that where the concepts of work and
29:26
leisure breakdown will be like or what you would expect you cannot because we
29:34
are at present I think utterly incapable to draft anything like a blueprint for
29:41
such a society it is so easily ridiculed
29:49
because we always assume that the individuals si have been preconditioned
29:56
si are now will suddenly be placed in a situation in which as they don't have to
30:02
work for a living anymore in which they don't have to earn a living anymore in which most of their time as free time
30:10
and it is then very easy to say and I agree that would be a catastrophe and a detail perhaps the greatest catastrophe
30:17
of the civilization it would be complete chaos it would be a nightmare there we
30:23
cannot and risen envision such a society because it was so radically different
30:28
from what we have now that any such vision would really be innovative
30:34
responsible well let me try this comment then that we have the potential of
30:39
developing however it might be organized and set up something approaching what has traditionally been considered a
30:46
utopian kind of existence yes now then
30:51
you then go on in the second part of your earlier statement to say that you see the society however
30:57
moving and with tendencies which not only are not leading toward the establishment or existence of this kind
31:03
of society but are actually leading in the other direction and this is what I wanted to to question you on because
31:09
hadn't had always been true that the technological abilities of society have
31:14
been ahead of the social abilities of the society to use utilize these techniques isn't this simply a question
31:22
of cultural lag why isn't it that we aren't in fact slowly evolving a
31:28
framework whereby we can use these technological developments to create a healthy human society because in my view
31:36
it is not simply a time lag or a cultural lag in any other sense the
31:44
decisive difference here is that what is in worth is not simply a better
31:51
utilization and a better development of the available technical resources but
31:58
what I called a radical redirection of technical progress itself and such a
32:05
radical redirection of technical progress namely first to the satisfaction of vital needs and to a
32:12
pacification such a radical redirection is in my view not possible within the
32:21
established framework but would involve a sweeping change in our institutions
32:29
which we're still institutions adopted to scarcity and not to what we
32:37
potentially have now why can't this change be made let me let me also quote
32:44
at this point something from your introduction that may or may not throw a light on on what I'm getting at you said
32:50
here that the way in which is assigned he organizes the life of its members involves an initial choice between
32:57
historical alternatives which are determined by the inherited level of the material and intellectual culture the
33:03
choice itself results from the play of the dominant interests it anticipates
33:08
specific modes transforming and utilized man in nature and rejects other modes etc the word I was I was looking at
33:15
there with the word choice if I would not believe that such a redirection is
33:22
historically possible I wouldn't have written my book as far as it choices
33:27
concerned there indeed I am very pessimistic because the choice would
33:35
require among other things men who live
33:41
in the dire need for such a change this dire need is as I pointed out today
33:49
effectively repressed it would furthermore require that these people
33:56
who live in need of such a change actually have the power to bring the
34:01
change about this to at present is not the case
34:07
does anybody map it from this society as it's currently set up yes most certainly
34:12
I think if not the majority at least a large segment of the population benefit
34:19
for it and that is precisely why it is so serious a wider so pain for you that
34:24
you criticize a society but I believe that Wars at stake than these benefits
34:32
where to use a cliche or though I hate it I seriously believe that the chances
34:40
of a human and humane existence for all without war the are at stake and in view
34:48
of these chances I think one has to criticize even a society which is more
34:54
beneficial to more people perhaps and any preceding society in history but in
35:01
a sense it also it also doesn't it although it may benefit some members more than others it also does well it
35:13
also wraps up those who benefit to some extent and and doesn't allow for their own full full development as human
35:20
beings and I think this is what you meant when you spoke at one point the world to become the staff of total administration which absorbs even the
35:26
administrators yes it absorbs not only the administrators it suffocates not
35:34
only the need for a redirection of progress but it even does a best to
35:41
arrest as a development of concepts and modes of thoughts which could define
35:49
good sketch alternatives of the development not only a quantitative the
35:56
changes but qualitative changes that is why I have the critique of present a
36:02
positivism and a criticism which I consider a pseudoaneurysm a false and
36:10
premise ism because it Orient's itself on a restricted and manipulated
36:16
experience I just want to push you in this on a second and then on John I know has a question previously it might be
36:25
said that a society that benefitted certain groups in the society rather than others had to be maintained in the
36:31
eyes of those who benefited because it was simply impossible technologically for the group that benefited to maintain
36:38
its particular benefits in an equalitarian totally equalitarian system
36:45
but now we have a society where that is no longer impossible where in fact those who benefit need not give up very much
36:51
in order to share their benefits with the others in the society through the advent of automation cybernetics and
36:58
these techniques also in the current situation isn't it true that those who
37:04
benefit could benefit more in a different social situation why then isn't it possible that traditional
37:12
leadership groups themselves could at this point under these conditions make the transition to a different kind of
37:17
society because it would be as far as I draw the first case of their story in
37:23
which a invested and intentionally darshan or a ruling class if you wish
37:30
has voluntarily abdicated the chances that the
37:36
a not benefit the way they benefit now the risk of serious disruptions and even
37:45
of a catastrophe and Worf is such that they will understandably not be willing
37:53
to voluntarily to institute so exchanges
38:00
direct from in the same society I think argues that they're um are are certain
38:07
strong reasons why those who even those involved in leadership do not benefit as greatly into society as they could from
38:14
a different kind of society couldn't this act is a sufficient stimulation to Lana where leadership tonight a
38:20
transition there no as far as I remember Indian spy that simply well for example
38:28
that the rich are not happy now in the first place I never took that very
38:34
seriously and I don't believe that the unhappiness or so it should really be a
38:41
matter of serious concern and in the second place I don't think you can
38:46
interpret this reluctance primarily in Psychological terms what is involved
38:52
after all is a deed to speak perfectly frankly a fundamental change and as he
38:58
established political and economic institutions has already indicated for
39:04
example a plant economy really plant economy with priority set on the
39:10
satisfaction of needs is not compatible
39:15
with the present private control of the economy with these individual one final
39:22
question on this point with these with this leadership be giving up much more than simply a question of status and
39:28
leadership would they be giving up any material conditions of livelihood again
39:36
looking back at history it is at least possible or probable that they would
39:45
indeed have to give up much of what they have now that others would move in we want to do
39:52
it in a different way that I would indeed say John yes you describe an a
40:00
contradiction or an antagonism between the need for change and I assume this is
40:07
a kind of objective need that exists without the wishes or rub or feelings of
40:13
of anyone and the repression of the expression of the need for this change
40:18
now do you foresee in any in any sense
40:25
perhaps even in the classical Marcion sense a breakdown based on this kind of
40:30
contradiction in the system that will force some kind of change perhaps not
40:35
the one that we want or the one that you foresee the possibilities of such a
40:42
breakdown are such that I think that
40:48
yields a most rabid Marxist would wish them for example I could imagine that a
40:55
nuclear war or even a short of in declare war a large-scale international
41:02
war would release the forces that may
41:08
make for such a redirection of progress but who's insane enough to wish that you
41:16
don't see it see such a breakdown stemming from less cataclysmic factors
41:24
like stagnation within the economy or some kind of breakdown in the in the
41:29
arrangement and organization of our social and sexual mores for example
41:35
there's a group in among writers for example Norman Mailer
41:42
in particular who talks about the sexual revolution these factors have any
41:49
significance to your way of thinking could we expand sexual other kind of a whole moral Christ yes well that's what
41:54
I think there is more lovely disasters and almost cubital applications of the
42:02
term evolution we have in our evolution of the coca-cola company brings out the bottle it is a revolution and bottling
42:09
we have a revolution in the order and whoever a loom evolution and everything only we don't have a revolution rather
42:17
the only field in which the term revolution makes any sense I don't see a sexual revolution at all
42:23
on the contrary as I try to point out in my book I see a very nice very welcome
42:30
and very as pleasurable and pleasant adaptation of sexual mores to the
42:37
requirements of the affluent society which simply cannot do any more with a
42:43
Victorian morality that has nothing to do with an evolution took to follow up
42:50
on that the this very pleasant
42:58
development than our sexual and social mores that you talk about seems to
43:04
develop somewhat in opposition to the to the non terroristic totalitarian izing
43:12
of a society yes well no I doubt even let doubt even let because the more
43:19
sexual freedom people have within the established within the establishment and
43:28
without being punished by the establishment the easier they are to
43:33
guide the easier they are to manipulate now please don't misunderstand me I will
43:38
be the last to condemn this liberation and sexual morality let me ask you a
43:45
question historically uh maybe you can answer you don't want to or can't answer this but and this I thought of this one John
43:53
brought up the question of the web llama use of a revolution that changes in our
43:58
sexual mores in addition we find certain tendencies taking place in art and
44:04
literature and also in the use of drugs which seem possibly to be interrelated
44:09
here there's been a great deal of talk about another revolution the the drug
44:15
revolution the use of consciousness expanding drugs were with mr. Timothy
44:20
Leary and if if International Federation for internal freedom and similarly
44:26
artists in perhaps analogous Y and in Abstract Expressionism in tendencies
44:32
like this have have developed an art form which becomes at least to me so solipsistic that it almost ceases to
44:38
have any relevance other than for oneself are there historical parallels
44:43
and these kinds of developments and other social tendencies and developments and when one here is a great deal I I
44:50
was thinking of the decline of the Roman Empire for example as being a time of libertine ism and a concern with extreme
45:01
individuality the period following the French Revolution yes rather period following the French Revolution the
45:08
period of Sydney liked was slightly different because there did you at a considerable degree of genuine freedom
45:16
in these things provided you belong to deter a nest away the others didn't have it and never did have it as far as it
45:24
dogs are concerned this is very close to my heart because again unfortunately in the universities you know we are very
45:32
much concerned with it in this respect I'm a terrible reactionary as in many
45:38
other aspects I think that Doc's are reprehensible and that the only case in
45:45
which they are to be welcomed is in case of pain of insufferable physical pain in
45:53
all other cases they cannot possibly do what these people pretend as they do
46:01
especially not an art literature development of consciousness or these if
46:07
any singer acts of human freedom and if they are not the development at
46:13
attainment of human freedom they will invariably a compressor opposite over
46:18
they are supposed to be air to accomplish namely some kind of illusionary a happiness illusory
46:25
contentment illusory experience which again may very well become a vehicle of
46:31
adjustment rather than the opposite but isn't the ability in a certain sense to to take drugs which can expand your
46:38
personal individual consciousness to their greatest extent if in fact this is what they do or to work in art forms
46:45
which which expands one one's own feelings and emotions to the utmost
46:50
isn't this really a kind of liberation and freedom which is unparalleled in
46:56
history well maybe it is a revelation form things for which you shouldn't be liberated because they are precisely the
47:03
very essence of the present state of affairs and if you liberate yourself artificially form it what you actually
47:10
do is not develop your consciousness but arrest your consciousness in other words
47:15
this isn't so much a freedom to as a freedom from exactly you talk to the
47:21
misuse of the term revolution would you apply the the same approbation to the
47:30
use of the term in in the context of the civil rights movement the Negro
47:35
revolution as well do you see this in other words as a as a sign as a factor
47:45
for change in the Society of a significant sword feet before you mention that I let me just point out but
47:51
I think what possibly were working toward is some is is to see whether or not there are areas in which or forces
47:58
within the society which offer an opportunity for social change of some kind am I wrong John no yeah that's
48:03
right yes it is certainly this movement certainly is a movement towards social
48:10
change I would not call it a revolution because
48:15
I personally cannot understand how you can call a revolution a movement which
48:23
tries to implement the principles of the Declaration of Independence I mean as a
48:30
mere fact that we have to have such a movement today almost 200 years after
48:37
the Declaration of Independence I think characterizes our society sufficiently
48:43
it is not a revolution it will see a effort to finally to translate into
48:52
reality and what was promised a centuries ago the promise was which
48:58
actually modern society began and which is still not translated into reality
49:04
see right mills dealt with two other groups within the society namely the
49:09
labor movement and the intellectuals would you apply the same criticism to
49:15
both of these groups you want to deal with them in turn I did not apply any criticism as far as I remember to the
49:22
civil rights movement into the Negro movement as far as far as a lady I
49:27
didn't mean criticism had sense but an estimate of every yes as far as labor
49:34
movement is concerned or I can say is that at present organized labor in the
49:41
United States and not only in the United States has nothing to do anymore of this
49:46
and what Marx wants court as a polity reott and the develop a consciousness
49:54
and see revolutionary potential off as apologia
49:59
organized labor has today become one of the countervailing powers their
50:05
cooperating wizards counter countervailing power in the strengthening and improvement of the
50:12
powers that be again I certainly do not
50:18
say that in any way as a kind of accusation or indictment only in order
50:23
to characterize as the difference between the present state of affairs and the julep to 19th
50:31
century and in this country the turkeys would a class analysis of the society
50:39
still have any meaning given the the widespread affluence and the repression
50:46
of any significant consciousness of problems within the society I can't help
50:54
it but I do believe that we still have a class Society a class Society is not
51:00
characterized by the increasing higher standard of living of the wid classes
51:06
what is characterized today most outspokenly characterized by the fact
51:13
that we have one group or class which by
51:19
virtue of its position in the social and economic process decides and determines
51:27
the fate of the entire population and that the majority of the population
51:33
again by virtue of they are positioned in the social and economic process is
51:41
really not in any way self determinating
51:46
in speaking of classes let me only first bring up something else when you speak of of social change and how it takes
51:52
place and I'll quote here you say first which we've already said the choice is
51:58
primarily but only primarily the privilege of those groups which have attained control over the productive
52:03
processes their control projects the way of life for the whole and the ensuing and enslaving necessity is the result of
52:10
their freedom then you say and the possible abolition of this necessity pens on a new ingression of freedom not
52:16
any freedom but that of men who comprehend the given necessity as insufferable pain and as unnecessary so
52:23
that here you set up with your criteria of social change a group which is I
52:29
would say from this almost totally excluded from benefit to the society and you make this clear as you said earlier
52:35
in terms of labor movement and you also make it clear when you speak of of the people in general and their ability to
52:41
change the situation where you argue that in the redistribution of wealth and
52:47
equalization of classes there is simply a new stratification characteristic of advanced industrial society and not any
52:53
basic chance to change that method of stratification and ratification but then
53:00
you close your book and this is only the last half page out of 257 it's true when
53:06
you say however underneath the conservative popular base is the substratum of the outcasts and Outsiders
53:13
the exploited and persecuted of other races and colors the unemployed and unemployable they exist outside the
53:19
democratic process they're their life
53:26
their life is the most immediate in the most real need for ending intolerable conditions and institutions thus their
53:32
opposition is revolutionary even if their consciousness is not the fact that they start refusing to play the game
53:38
maybe the fact which marks the beginning of the end of the period now is the fact
53:44
that you spend only a half-page in this in any a sense characteristic of your evaluation of the possibility of this
53:49
tendency only partly characteristic the other part is that as I say only the
53:56
beginnings that may mark easy beginnings these group still are too powerless to
54:04
accomplish a change by themselves what I would like to add here that if I speak
54:11
of the ingestion of a new freedom motivated by the awareness of
54:18
intolerable the conditions that does not necessarily and exclusively me and
54:24
abject poverty and misery I for example
54:29
can very well envisage conditions under which the social groups which are not
54:37
prefer which are not a little in a live which do not live in misery become aware
54:42
of the insanity of a society in which
54:47
they have to continue in which their to continue alienated
54:52
labor continual performances which they actually hate continue the struggle for
55:01
existence which has become more and more a trace in the face of as impossible
55:09
abolition of loyalties and that this awareness may well spread and become one
55:15
of those potentially changing forces there currently are a number of programs
55:20
taking place throughout the country and of course the one that have gotten the most press recently of the Appalachians for Appalachia but also here in New York
55:28
City and elsewhere in Oakland California there have been a number of programs in which an enormous amount of money is
55:34
being spent in extremely small locations and an attempt to take this particular group of the population and somehow
55:40
integrate them into the society and I'm thinking of a project like the one going on in Harlem which is going to in which
55:46
eighty million dollars is going to be invested or one on the Lower East Side which I believe has been allocated 120
55:51
million dollars and as I understand it much of this money has come from extremely sophisticated extremely
55:57
sophisticated area of the leadership of the nation do you think that these kinds
56:02
of programs or any kind of program will be able to reduce the number of those who are unemployed and unemployable in
56:09
other words which way do you see this tendency going do you see this this potentially revolutionary group increasing report or decreasing that is
56:19
very hard to say because it depends entirely on the national and
56:24
international situation as to the project you mentioned naturally any and
56:30
every project that produces even in a small area misery and poverty and dirt
56:38
is good and should be supported but
56:43
without illusions that they do not have the key for the decisive change and it
56:51
seems to be a clear because this is not a local Messiah but a fire that not only
56:58
concerns the nation as a whole about a soup national core to John normal well let me
57:06
ask one final question what do you see and I think in a sense you've answered this what do you see the role of of
57:12
scholars and intellectuals to be given this particular state of society where
57:19
there doesn't seem to be at least if your analysis is correct much concrete action that can be done at this point
57:26
and indeed I'd say your analysis is a rather pessimistic one yes it is a
57:31
pessimistic one and precisely in this situation as the intellectual the scholar perhaps has a more responsible
57:40
or than he ever had before because it is his task today against all a apparent or
57:49
real success to preserve or rather to
57:56
develop those concepts those ideas those
58:01
aspirations which do not succumb to the oil or the seeming benefits of any
58:10
presence aasaiya t but which concepts and modes of thought which remain loyal
58:17
to the essentially o it hopes and aspirations of mankind for a society in
58:25
which as a struggle for existence as a deed pacified this is today and more
58:31
than ever before a real possibility and the entire power and the entire wealth
58:37
of our society is at present directed against this possibility precisely
58:44
because it is over here so in this situation discolor and the intellectual has one of the most decisive tasks thank
58:53
you very much we've been talking to dr. Herbert mark who's a professor of philosophy at Brandeis University and
58:58
author of a recent for one-dimensional man published by beacon press and John Fannin an editor of a New York
59:05
publishing house

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 4:41:34 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> Jordy C. wrote:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gyL5ie6-x0
>
> Quite of ionterest, I am reading the transcript as of now...
>
> **********************************
>
> Transcript
>
>
> 0:00
> sitting with me as dr. Herbert minutiae a professor of politics and philosophy at Brandeis University and the author of
> 0:07
> the recent book entitled one-dimensional man published by beacon press and also John Simon who's an editor of New York
> 0:13
> publishing house and we're going to be discussing dr. marcoh whose book one-dimensional man and this is a book
> 0:20
> as I understand it which is about the United States and its general thesis is
> 0:25
> that in certain significant ways we have reached situation or are reaching a
> 0:30
> situation with it which is extremely close to a totalitarian society and I
> 0:37
> think we'll begin by discussing what precisely we mean by this and I want to quote from dr. Marcus's book you're
> 0:44
> right by virtue of the way in his organized his technological base contemporary industrial society tends to
> 0:51
> be totalitarian for totalitarian is not only a terroristic political coordination of society but also a non
> 0:58
> terroristic economic technical coordination which operates through the manipulation of needs by vested
> 1:05
> interests it does precludes the emergence of an effective opposition against the whole not only the specific
> 1:12
> form of government or party rule makes for totalitarianism but also a specific
> 1:17
> system of production and distribution which may well be compatible with a pluralism of parties newspapers
> 1:23
> countervailing powers etc and I wonder if you'd begin by telling us precisely
> 1:28
> what you mean in this sense by totalitarian yes may I begin by a
> 1:34
> qualifying a little what you said I wish only my book total of dear we see a
> 1:39
> United States a deal esse quotation shows with certain tendencies not more
> 1:47
> certain tendencies which I think are observable in the most advanced areas of
> 1:55
> industrial civilization the most advanced area of industrial civilization
> 2:01
> of course is the United States today but even in the United States the tendencies
> 2:07
> to which I point are prevailing if they
> 2:12
> are prevailing at or not simply beginning to show themselves only in certain advanced
> 2:20
> areas meaning as is very known that are still vast regions of under development
> 2:26
> of poverty even in the United States now by a totalitarian I used the term fully
> 2:34
> aware that this might violate certain taboos we are used to apply the term
> 2:42
> totalitarian only to well first the fascist and Nazi society then the
> 2:49
> communist society that is to say we are used to apply the term totalitarian to
> 2:55
> societies under more or less terroristic dictatorship with a one-party system
> 3:02
> with the more or less terroristic elimination of all opposition I believe
> 3:10
> that such a confined restricted use of the term totalitarian is itself
> 3:16
> ideological because it may serve to cover up the fact at least in my opinion
> 3:23
> a fact where totalitarian tendencies are beginning to show even in societies
> 3:31
> which are still democratic which preserves in democratic poses and institutions which have several parties
> 3:39
> which may even have countervailing forces by totalitarian I mean the
> 3:49
> constellation of situation enrich the private as well as public existence of
> 3:57
> man of the individual is controlled is
> 4:04
> exposed to standardised required ways of
> 4:11
> behavior standardized imposed values standardized imposed needs this can be
> 4:19
> done by a private as well as by a public you're cutting it can be done why are
> 4:25
> the correctly Democratic Media of mass communication and so on it is in a way a
> 4:33
> consequence as a quote source of technical formulas which implies mass
> 4:40
> production and mass distribution mass production and mass distribution in turn
> 4:46
> require a considerable degree of standardization a considerable degree of
> 4:52
> submission of the individual to pre given and superimposed values ideas
> 5:01
> aspirations goers and so on is this a necessary condition of this particular productive capacity and system
> 5:09
> well the tale of necessary apply to history is a very question of the term
> 5:16
> we can see in a strict sense if you mean it in the sense of a physical law nothing is necessarily an estimate I do
> 5:24
> think it is the by-product at present inevitable byproduct of the way in which
> 5:32
> technical progress actually has taken place in industrial society and this and
> 5:40
> and this this argument applies as well to societies that are organized and I more or less individualistic basis as
> 5:47
> well as those that are collectivistic aliy organized that is the same critique
> 5:52
> applies as well to the soviet union or to the countries in the Soviet bloc as it does to the United States you would
> 5:58
> you would argue that I would say it applies in the sense that similar tendencies oh I think observable there
> 6:06
> of course was vast differences based on the entirely different foundation and
> 6:12
> organization of the entire economy but in as much as the Soviet Union will very
> 6:19
> soon join the most advanced areas of industrial civilization I think the two
> 6:25
> systems will become more or less assimilated I think I think we want to make clear at this point because you do
> 6:31
> make it clear in your book that you do see differences between the Soviet Union and the United States differences
> 6:37
> and maybe you are a ground away where the obvious difference is that the
> 6:42
> society as I just mentioned is organized on an essentially different basis the
> 6:49
> collective ownership and control of the means of production regardless of whether or not you consider it as
> 6:55
> already socialist or not socialist at all is a sufficiently different form a
> 7:02
> society organized on the basis of private control and ownership of the means of production to make for decisive
> 7:10
> differences in the tendencies of development there is also if there is there not a difference in the legal
> 7:17
> basis of control by the state or is there nobody mid by legal basis well we
> 7:24
> are to some extent individuals and their own participation and their own ability to dissent are protected more in the
> 7:33
> American system than in the Soviet system they are certainly more protected
> 7:39
> they are even institutionalized as the American system they are not institutionalized in the Soviet system
> 7:45
> but precisely here I have my way I have a great fear that this
> 7:52
> institutionalization of civil rights and especially the right and Liberty to dissent is gradually eroded is reduced
> 8:01
> not much at all not by a conspiracy but simply by the
> 8:06
> mechanisms of technical goals within the
> 8:13
> framework of the established institutions which are before we get
> 8:19
> into a discussion of that particular area since we're attempting to define
> 8:25
> your use of totalitarian which I take it is quite different than say call Friedreich's use of the word oh yes I
> 8:32
> wanted to ask about the about the the
> 8:37
> applicability of the concept to the non advanced sectors of the world where
> 8:44
> particularly those countries that are now labeled socialist and are going into four extents planning and and use of many of the
> 8:52
> kinds of controls that you suggest exist in advanced industrial society Ghana Cuba Algeria for example the definition
> 9:01
> begin to apply in these countries as well on these areas that is one of the
> 9:07
> most difficult questions to raise and to answer on the one hand I would say and
> 9:14
> it may sound paradoxical although I don't think it is paradoxical that these
> 9:19
> countries precisely because they are not yet at the advanced stage of
> 9:26
> industrialization where they have to buy all the negative features of this kind
> 9:34
> of industrialization that these countries have a better chance of
> 9:41
> proceeding differently that these countries have a better chance of building form Scott a failure and a more
> 9:50
> human society but there are other impediments here namely that the vast
> 9:59
> majority of these countries is too weak in resources intellectual as well as
> 10:06
> material to do it by themselves they are by themselves as far as I can
> 10:13
> see again with some exceptions incapable of accumulating the funds capital funds
> 10:21
> that would be necessary for development and therefore will have to rely on
> 10:26
> outside help which can come only from the east or from the west and I am a
> 10:33
> friends of less this dependence on outside health would not almost
> 10:38
> inevitably these countries lead along the path that present gone either by the
> 10:47
> east or by serviced so that the idea of a third force is still a more or less a
> 10:53
> utopian idea one more question on in this general area the Isaac torture in
> 11:02
> his book the the great contest where he dealt with with issues of the Cold War
> 11:09
> which were not really central to this discussion suggested that the the
> 11:15
> potential the ultimate potential for freedom in the organization of the in in
> 11:21
> this sense of the totalitarian soviet society was far greater than existed in
> 11:26
> any area of the West because of the of the way in which the controls were applied and were used would you agree
> 11:33
> with this the formulation of mr. Deutsch is I agree up to a very definite point
> 11:38
> if Georgia wants to say that the establishment of a plant society it does
> 11:46
> not have to cope with the vested interests which otherwise stand in the
> 11:53
> way of a utilization of all available resources for the satisfaction of vital
> 12:00
> needs wherever they are still not satisfied rather than proceeding through wastes
> 12:07
> and planned obsolescence if he wants to say that I agree entirely there
> 12:13
> searching a centrally planned society in which the counteracting vested interest
> 12:19
> are indeed eliminated would have a far greater potential to develop humanity
> 12:26
> let's say in short then another society but here I think we have to place the
> 12:32
> development of Soviet society in the actual context of peaceful or rather
> 12:38
> hostile coexistence which means that the Soviet Union - at present sees itself
> 12:45
> committed to divert a vast section of its resources of the social wealth to
> 12:52
> armament production and thereby has to
> 12:57
> impose sacrifices which otherwise would not have to be imposed I think maybe it
> 13:07
> something we got to explore a little bit at this point is is it to go back to this question of the territory and the
> 13:12
> reason I come back to it I think is because it isn't the provocative word to be used in the context of modern American life one of
> 13:21
> the things you talk about in this regard is the range in the nature of choice available in this society and one should
> 13:30
> say I suppose in the first place that it seems that there is a great range of choice to some extent we have to all choose our political candidates and our
> 13:37
> pretty well our political leaders from a range of candidates we choose what the particular job you want to go to what
> 13:43
> education education we want to go to really choose a candidate or are they not chosen for us do i and you won't
> 13:51
> Weber it is choose a candidate which was actually or running order somebody else does a machine or I don't know what do
> 13:58
> it well there is a choice at least between different candidates with different points of view mr. Barry
> 14:03
> Goldwater has a different orientation I believed and then our president Johnson
> 14:10
> yes certainly are these real choices they are real choices wherever you have
> 14:16
> a real difference of opinion now I'm again God you early suspicious
> 14:23
> of the speeches and platforms and programs made before the elections they
> 14:31
> are usually hardly in any relation to what happened after the election if you
> 14:36
> have still a real difference of opinion I would say you indeed have a choice and
> 14:42
> you have freedom of choice but that is precisely what I start to doubt the mere
> 14:48
> fact is that we have two parties does not yet by itself mean that these
> 14:54
> parties differ in the accenture attitudes and opinions there may well be
> 15:02
> differences within one and the same accepted and established framework in
> 15:08
> which case both parties would compete in preserving the existing framework rather
> 15:16
> than working for alternatives if they are any alternatives one of the
> 15:21
> traditional areas of dissent aside from the political arena choice have been the academies and the
> 15:27
> distance of an intellectual community which at times historically has seen
> 15:32
> things differently than the current establishment of a society do you see in
> 15:39
> in the academies the existence of a real dissent and a real opposition of
> 15:44
> alternatives by academies you mean universities colleges and so on yes well
> 15:53
> I would say since this is precisely the field where I do have experience that is
> 15:59
> perhaps today the area which is still the freest of order my long experience
> 16:07
> with students has shown me that these students at least when they enter the
> 16:13
> university are still entirely open minded that they think by themselves
> 16:20
> that they preserve their open mind that they are highly critical and that's a
> 16:28
> really talk at least if they know that they can talk that depends on the with
> 16:34
> whom they talk gradually however the dire need makes itself first to look for
> 16:42
> a job they know perfectly well that if they go on like that if they continue to
> 16:48
> have really dissenting opinions and not only slight differences in opinion it
> 16:53
> may be very difficult for them to find a job and that sooner or later they have
> 16:59
> to adopt modes of behavior in which at least they conceal the dissent or
> 17:07
> express it in such a way that it does not cause a scandal and I certainly
> 17:13
> don't blame them for doing it but is this really is this really sufficient to explain a lack of this and
> 17:19
> there have been scholars and intellectuals who have been able to take a dissenting position in terms of
> 17:24
> publication and one thinks of individuals like Searight Mills and and in a much different sense and in a much
> 17:30
> more popular sense Vance Packard how would you account for the existence of these people and how would you account
> 17:37
> for the fact that there are not more likely I would not I say and I don't think I did say that
> 17:44
> we have no dissent and what I did say and what I mean and what I would like to
> 17:50
> repeat is we have a considerable amount of dissent we can afford this dissent
> 17:58
> because it remains completely and entirely in effective we can afford to
> 18:07
> have C right minutes we can afford to let Vance Packard say things which
> 18:14
> formally would have been very meticulously considered because our
> 18:22
> society is so strong so cohesive so a powerful that these revelations don't do
> 18:31
> it any harm and in a sense that is good but in another sense and perhaps and the
> 18:38
> deeper sentence is very bad John YES on the question I have two questions really
> 18:44
> but first I'd like to ask you about the particular phenomenon of Vance Packard uh he sells in the hundreds of thousands
> 18:54
> of copies and is in his widely read and
> 18:59
> and yet seems to have no real influence in the society it's the kind of thing
> 19:04
> that just slips off the surface that it makes perhaps a momentary impression and
> 19:10
> disappears and of course in the case of see right mills professor mills wrote a
> 19:17
> book club listen Yankee which sold over 400,000 copies and was read as I noticed
> 19:22
> by Subway's by secretaries writing on the subway and yet again made no
> 19:27
> impression the society seems not only confident to allow dissenters to exist
> 19:34
> but to allow them to be fairly widely disseminated in some cases what how
> 19:41
> would you want to comment on the phenomenon of the lack of impression of these people in the end the processes
> 19:47
> and devices by with which this is accomplished yes because I believe there's another in
> 19:53
> rushon which overrides and we consent in the last analysis destroys as the or
> 20:01
> mate it makes impotent as the impressions left as these books there is name is the
> 20:07
> impression that that never mind after our this society functions
> 20:13
> beautifully and efficiently it has succeeded in vastly increasing astonied
> 20:21
> of living in distributing its benefits over larger section of the former
> 20:27
> underprivileged population we still have these large areas of poverty but nothing
> 20:36
> proves that these areas cannot sooner or later also be taken care off
> 20:42
> so what these people reveal and indict are simply byproducts of the famous
> 20:54
> affluent society byproducts which are present we have to cope with but which
> 21:00
> are not really in any way serious and dangerous the the event in the in the
> 21:07
> recent past that seems most to bear this out it seems to me it was the
> 21:13
> assassination of the president where there existed at least the opportunity
> 21:20
> for an act and and the consequences of
> 21:25
> the active to have a deep impress on the American people and yet it was as if the
> 21:31
> the display of that for days was like another television rugged similar to
> 21:37
> show exact which we had after four days it was completely incorporated into the daily business of life there was a new
> 21:44
> president things are going on yes I'm well what I wanted to ask you was to
> 21:50
> perhaps comment a little bit more on the the the specific techniques and methods
> 21:55
> since the the mass communications industry plays such a large role in this
> 22:01
> whole process would you care to comment on that
> 22:06
> yes but again I don't want to make the impression that I consider the only
> 22:13
> thing as a conspiracy once a part of the media of mass communication we have a
> 22:20
> conspiratorial aspect they are to only a remind you of see a set of the frame of
> 22:27
> self-censorship which is exercised by the press by the movie industry whatever
> 22:33
> it is a self-censorship far more effective and far more efficient than
> 22:38
> any state instituted censor that is not the point I think that these are all
> 22:46
> these developments have a very rational basis namely precisely let our system
> 22:56
> works and because it works because it is so productive because it distributes
> 23:04
> such benefits we repress the pious which we pay for this affluence a world which
> 23:12
> by the way I would only use a in quotation marks it is this repression it is the repression of the price it cost
> 23:19
> the sacrifices that are involved which
> 23:25
> is actually that what bothers me most raises a question because thus far even
> 23:31
> speaking about such here again I use quotation marks intangibles in quotation
> 23:37
> marks is the range of choice available not being truly a meaningful choice and the social sciences and the academic
> 23:45
> institutions while tolerating some dissent nonetheless not really participating in the development and
> 23:51
> movement of the society what's wrong with the society as it now stands is there a need to change the society
> 23:57
> I mean don't after all we have haven't we if not if we haven't achieved utopia
> 24:03
> aren't we getting close to reaching utopia at least in terms of the production of material goods and
> 24:09
> physical comfort well that question leads to Z what I consider the calls or
> 24:15
> who at problem rods in a rather large cause of mine as
> 24:21
> universities a question it was a kind of examination question I asked the
> 24:27
> students I want to change I want you to tell me what is wrong was a society I never got an answer
> 24:33
> nobody could or nobody dare to tell me what is actually wrong with a society did the students want the course and
> 24:39
> knows I didn't because again I completely understand why they didn't is
> 24:44
> I want to tell me or didn't know what is wrong with it is an T I have to become a
> 24:52
> little philosophical and even a little utopian for me the world utopia makes no
> 24:59
> sense because in my view there's nothing today which could be a reason to be
> 25:04
> called utopia mankind has reached a stage where if it wanted to it could actually within a
> 25:11
> relatively short time translate into reality even the most utopian idea so
> 25:18
> the term utopia again is a subterfuge
> 25:23
> what as long as a society is that it retains that it perpetuates the struggle
> 25:31
> for existence tall frustration waste
> 25:39
> although all the intellectual and material capabilities are there to
> 25:47
> pacify this table before existence in the international arena as well as
> 25:53
> within the nation and force a private individual and by a pacification of the
> 26:01
> struggle for existence I mean something I think very concrete I expressed it in
> 26:07
> the phrase and I think your listener will listen as we know what I'm talking
> 26:14
> about the abolition of alienated labor we have reached a stage where industrial
> 26:21
> civilization really could reduce working time to such an extent that the
> 26:28
> traditional proportion between working time and free timelessly worst that free time becomes
> 26:34
> full time and working time marginal time this would involve a complete
> 26:42
> transvaluation of values it would cancel
> 26:47
> some of the most cherished abuse of the established organization for example the
> 26:54
> need for earning a living instead of making life and end in itself and not a
> 27:01
> means to attain an end which is either never attained or only in an age where
> 27:06
> you cannot enjoy it anymore this I think today is the alternative and this art relative is systematically
> 27:14
> again not in terms of a conspiracy about objectively prevented by the way in
> 27:23
> which we continue as he established direction of progress well there are two
> 27:28
> points there and it would be fair to rephrase the first part of that to say in a kind of shorthand sense that while
> 27:36
> we have the possibility of living within a society of Plenty the society is still organized as if it were a society of
> 27:43
> scarcity no for one very simple reason
> 27:49
> you don't need plenty in order to have a humane society I would even go so far
> 27:57
> and there again you will have to protect me I would even be a good so far as to
> 28:03
> say that one of the crimes of our present area you are is that we have too
> 28:10
> much there in a situation where the vast majority of the people of the earth have
> 28:16
> to litter so it is not a question of Plenty well let me change to other than the comparison between enough we had the
> 28:23
> potential of developing a society based on enough and we're still living as a society based on scarcity that's correct
> 28:31
> now the second part of that the second part of what you just said can I interrupt you I'm a question of enough
> 28:38
> and scarcity isn't it also true that
> 28:44
> that the the concept of scarcity doesn't apply because the the need to waste is
> 28:52
> so paramount injustice society certainly the need to waste as paramount as a need
> 28:58
> to waste is absolutely essential because it is a need for waste which in turn
> 29:06
> perpetuates the need for earning a living the need for growth for doing
> 29:12
> work which in fact technically is already superfluous can we make you into
> 29:19
> a bit of a visionary and ask you to discuss what the nature of a society that where the concepts of work and
> 29:26
> leisure breakdown will be like or what you would expect you cannot because we
> 29:34
> are at present I think utterly incapable to draft anything like a blueprint for
> 29:41
> such a society it is so easily ridiculed
> 29:49
> because we always assume that the individuals si have been preconditioned
> 29:56
> si are now will suddenly be placed in a situation in which as they don't have to
> 30:02
> work for a living anymore in which they don't have to earn a living anymore in which most of their time as free time
> 30:10
> and it is then very easy to say and I agree that would be a catastrophe and a detail perhaps the greatest catastrophe
> 30:17
> of the civilization it would be complete chaos it would be a nightmare there we
> 30:23
> cannot and risen envision such a society because it was so radically different
> 30:28
> from what we have now that any such vision would really be innovative
> 30:34
> responsible well let me try this comment then that we have the potential of
> 30:39
> developing however it might be organized and set up something approaching what has traditionally been considered a
> 30:46
> utopian kind of existence yes now then
> 30:51
> you then go on in the second part of your earlier statement to say that you see the society however
> 30:57
> moving and with tendencies which not only are not leading toward the establishment or existence of this kind
> 31:03
> of society but are actually leading in the other direction and this is what I wanted to to question you on because
> 31:09
> hadn't had always been true that the technological abilities of society have
> 31:14
> been ahead of the social abilities of the society to use utilize these techniques isn't this simply a question
> 31:22
> of cultural lag why isn't it that we aren't in fact slowly evolving a
> 31:28
> framework whereby we can use these technological developments to create a healthy human society because in my view
> 31:36
> it is not simply a time lag or a cultural lag in any other sense the
> 31:44
> decisive difference here is that what is in worth is not simply a better
> 31:51
> utilization and a better development of the available technical resources but
> 31:58
> what I called a radical redirection of technical progress itself and such a
> 32:05
> radical redirection of technical progress namely first to the satisfaction of vital needs and to a
> 32:12
> pacification such a radical redirection is in my view not possible within the
> 32:21
> established framework but would involve a sweeping change in our institutions
> 32:29
> which we're still institutions adopted to scarcity and not to what we
> 32:37
> potentially have now why can't this change be made let me let me also quote
> 32:44
> at this point something from your introduction that may or may not throw a light on on what I'm getting at you said
> 32:50
> here that the way in which is assigned he organizes the life of its members involves an initial choice between
> 32:57
> historical alternatives which are determined by the inherited level of the material and intellectual culture the
> 33:03
> choice itself results from the play of the dominant interests it anticipates
> 33:08
> specific modes transforming and utilized man in nature and rejects other modes etc the word I was I was looking at
> 33:15
> there with the word choice if I would not believe that such a redirection is
> 33:22
> historically possible I wouldn't have written my book as far as it choices
> 33:27
> concerned there indeed I am very pessimistic because the choice would
> 33:35
> require among other things men who live
> 33:41
> in the dire need for such a change this dire need is as I pointed out today
> 33:49
> effectively repressed it would furthermore require that these people
> 33:56
> who live in need of such a change actually have the power to bring the
> 34:01
> change about this to at present is not the case
> 34:07
> does anybody map it from this society as it's currently set up yes most certainly
> 34:12
> I think if not the majority at least a large segment of the population benefit
> 34:19
> for it and that is precisely why it is so serious a wider so pain for you that
> 34:24
> you criticize a society but I believe that Wars at stake than these benefits
> 34:32
> where to use a cliche or though I hate it I seriously believe that the chances
> 34:40
> of a human and humane existence for all without war the are at stake and in view
> 34:48
> of these chances I think one has to criticize even a society which is more
> 34:54
> beneficial to more people perhaps and any preceding society in history but in
> 35:01
> a sense it also it also doesn't it although it may benefit some members more than others it also does well it
> 35:13
> also wraps up those who benefit to some extent and and doesn't allow for their own full full development as human
> 35:20
> beings and I think this is what you meant when you spoke at one point the world to become the staff of total administration which absorbs even the
> 35:26
> administrators yes it absorbs not only the administrators it suffocates not
> 35:34
> only the need for a redirection of progress but it even does a best to
> 35:41
> arrest as a development of concepts and modes of thoughts which could define
> 35:49
> good sketch alternatives of the development not only a quantitative the
> 35:56
> changes but qualitative changes that is why I have the critique of present a
> 36:02
> positivism and a criticism which I consider a pseudoaneurysm a false and
> 36:10
> premise ism because it Orient's itself on a restricted and manipulated
> 36:16
> experience I just want to push you in this on a second and then on John I know has a question previously it might be
> 36:25
> said that a society that benefitted certain groups in the society rather than others had to be maintained in the
> 36:31
> eyes of those who benefited because it was simply impossible technologically for the group that benefited to maintain
> 36:38
> its particular benefits in an equalitarian totally equalitarian system
> 36:45
> but now we have a society where that is no longer impossible where in fact those who benefit need not give up very much
> 36:51
> in order to share their benefits with the others in the society through the advent of automation cybernetics and
> 36:58
> these techniques also in the current situation isn't it true that those who
> 37:04
> benefit could benefit more in a different social situation why then isn't it possible that traditional
> 37:12
> leadership groups themselves could at this point under these conditions make the transition to a different kind of
> 37:17
> society because it would be as far as I draw the first case of their story in
> 37:23
> which a invested and intentionally darshan or a ruling class if you wish
> 37:30
> has voluntarily abdicated the chances that the
> 37:36
> a not benefit the way they benefit now the risk of serious disruptions and even
> 37:45
> of a catastrophe and Worf is such that they will understandably not be willing
> 37:53
> to voluntarily to institute so exchanges
> 38:00
> direct from in the same society I think argues that they're um are are certain
> 38:07
> strong reasons why those who even those involved in leadership do not benefit as greatly into society as they could from
> 38:14
> a different kind of society couldn't this act is a sufficient stimulation to Lana where leadership tonight a
> 38:20
> transition there no as far as I remember Indian spy that simply well for example
> 38:28
> that the rich are not happy now in the first place I never took that very
> 38:34
> seriously and I don't believe that the unhappiness or so it should really be a
> 38:41
> matter of serious concern and in the second place I don't think you can
> 38:46
> interpret this reluctance primarily in Psychological terms what is involved
> 38:52
> after all is a deed to speak perfectly frankly a fundamental change and as he
> 38:58
> established political and economic institutions has already indicated for
> 39:04
> example a plant economy really plant economy with priority set on the
> 39:10
> satisfaction of needs is not compatible
> 39:15
> with the present private control of the economy with these individual one final
> 39:22
> question on this point with these with this leadership be giving up much more than simply a question of status and
> 39:28
> leadership would they be giving up any material conditions of livelihood again
> 39:36
> looking back at history it is at least possible or probable that they would
> 39:45
> indeed have to give up much of what they have now that others would move in we want to do
> 39:52
> it in a different way that I would indeed say John yes you describe an a
> 40:00
> contradiction or an antagonism between the need for change and I assume this is
> 40:07
> a kind of objective need that exists without the wishes or rub or feelings of
> 40:13
> of anyone and the repression of the expression of the need for this change
> 40:18
> now do you foresee in any in any sense
> 40:25
> perhaps even in the classical Marcion sense a breakdown based on this kind of
> 40:30
> contradiction in the system that will force some kind of change perhaps not
> 40:35
> the one that we want or the one that you foresee the possibilities of such a
> 40:42
> breakdown are such that I think that
> 40:48
> yields a most rabid Marxist would wish them for example I could imagine that a
> 40:55
> nuclear war or even a short of in declare war a large-scale international
> 41:02
> war would release the forces that may
> 41:08
> make for such a redirection of progress but who's insane enough to wish that you
> 41:16
> don't see it see such a breakdown stemming from less cataclysmic factors
> 41:24
> like stagnation within the economy or some kind of breakdown in the in the
> 41:29
> arrangement and organization of our social and sexual mores for example
> 41:35
> there's a group in among writers for example Norman Mailer
> 41:42
> in particular who talks about the sexual revolution these factors have any
> 41:49
> significance to your way of thinking could we expand sexual other kind of a whole moral Christ yes well that's what
> 41:54
> I think there is more lovely disasters and almost cubital applications of the
> 42:02
> term evolution we have in our evolution of the coca-cola company brings out the bottle it is a revolution and bottling
> 42:09
> we have a revolution in the order and whoever a loom evolution and everything only we don't have a revolution rather
> 42:17
> the only field in which the term revolution makes any sense I don't see a sexual revolution at all
> 42:23
> on the contrary as I try to point out in my book I see a very nice very welcome
> 42:30
> and very as pleasurable and pleasant adaptation of sexual mores to the
> 42:37
> requirements of the affluent society which simply cannot do any more with a
> 42:43
> Victorian morality that has nothing to do with an evolution took to follow up
> 42:50
> on that the this very pleasant
> 42:58
> development than our sexual and social mores that you talk about seems to
> 43:04
> develop somewhat in opposition to the to the non terroristic totalitarian izing
> 43:12
> of a society yes well no I doubt even let doubt even let because the more
> 43:19
> sexual freedom people have within the established within the establishment and
> 43:28
> without being punished by the establishment the easier they are to
> 43:33
> guide the easier they are to manipulate now please don't misunderstand me I will
> 43:38
> be the last to condemn this liberation and sexual morality let me ask you a
> 43:45
> question historically uh maybe you can answer you don't want to or can't answer this but and this I thought of this one John
> 43:53
> brought up the question of the web llama use of a revolution that changes in our
> 43:58
> sexual mores in addition we find certain tendencies taking place in art and
> 44:04
> literature and also in the use of drugs which seem possibly to be interrelated
> 44:09
> here there's been a great deal of talk about another revolution the the drug
> 44:15
> revolution the use of consciousness expanding drugs were with mr. Timothy
> 44:20
> Leary and if if International Federation for internal freedom and similarly
> 44:26
> artists in perhaps analogous Y and in Abstract Expressionism in tendencies
> 44:32
> like this have have developed an art form which becomes at least to me so solipsistic that it almost ceases to
> 44:38
> have any relevance other than for oneself are there historical parallels
> 44:43
> and these kinds of developments and other social tendencies and developments and when one here is a great deal I I
> 44:50
> was thinking of the decline of the Roman Empire for example as being a time of libertine ism and a concern with extreme
> 45:01
> individuality the period following the French Revolution yes rather period following the French Revolution the
> 45:08
> period of Sydney liked was slightly different because there did you at a considerable degree of genuine freedom
> 45:16
> in these things provided you belong to deter a nest away the others didn't have it and never did have it as far as it
> 45:24
> dogs are concerned this is very close to my heart because again unfortunately in the universities you know we are very
> 45:32
> much concerned with it in this respect I'm a terrible reactionary as in many
> 45:38
> other aspects I think that Doc's are reprehensible and that the only case in
> 45:45
> which they are to be welcomed is in case of pain of insufferable physical pain in
> 45:53
> all other cases they cannot possibly do what these people pretend as they do
> 46:01
> especially not an art literature development of consciousness or these if
> 46:07
> any singer acts of human freedom and if they are not the development at
> 46:13
> attainment of human freedom they will invariably a compressor opposite over
> 46:18
> they are supposed to be air to accomplish namely some kind of illusionary a happiness illusory
> 46:25
> contentment illusory experience which again may very well become a vehicle of
> 46:31
> adjustment rather than the opposite but isn't the ability in a certain sense to to take drugs which can expand your
> 46:38
> personal individual consciousness to their greatest extent if in fact this is what they do or to work in art forms
> 46:45
> which which expands one one's own feelings and emotions to the utmost
> 46:50
> isn't this really a kind of liberation and freedom which is unparalleled in
> 46:56
> history well maybe it is a revelation form things for which you shouldn't be liberated because they are precisely the
> 47:03
> very essence of the present state of affairs and if you liberate yourself artificially form it what you actually
> 47:10
> do is not develop your consciousness but arrest your consciousness in other words
> 47:15
> this isn't so much a freedom to as a freedom from exactly you talk to the
> 47:21
> misuse of the term revolution would you apply the the same approbation to the
> 47:30
> use of the term in in the context of the civil rights movement the Negro
> 47:35
> revolution as well do you see this in other words as a as a sign as a factor
> 47:45
> for change in the Society of a significant sword feet before you mention that I let me just point out but
> 47:51
> I think what possibly were working toward is some is is to see whether or not there are areas in which or forces
> 47:58
> within the society which offer an opportunity for social change of some kind am I wrong John no yeah that's
> 48:03
> right yes it is certainly this movement certainly is a movement towards social
> 48:10
> change I would not call it a revolution because
> 48:15
> I personally cannot understand how you can call a revolution a movement which
> 48:23
> tries to implement the principles of the Declaration of Independence I mean as a
> 48:30
> mere fact that we have to have such a movement today almost 200 years after
> 48:37
> the Declaration of Independence I think characterizes our society sufficiently
> 48:43
> it is not a revolution it will see a effort to finally to translate into
> 48:52
> reality and what was promised a centuries ago the promise was which
> 48:58
> actually modern society began and which is still not translated into reality
> 49:04
> see right mills dealt with two other groups within the society namely the
> 49:09
> labor movement and the intellectuals would you apply the same criticism to
> 49:15
> both of these groups you want to deal with them in turn I did not apply any criticism as far as I remember to the
> 49:22
> civil rights movement into the Negro movement as far as far as a lady I
> 49:27
> didn't mean criticism had sense but an estimate of every yes as far as labor
> 49:34
> movement is concerned or I can say is that at present organized labor in the
> 49:41
> United States and not only in the United States has nothing to do anymore of this
> 49:46
> and what Marx wants court as a polity reott and the develop a consciousness
> 49:54
> and see revolutionary potential off as apologia
> 49:59
> organized labor has today become one of the countervailing powers their
> 50:05
> cooperating wizards counter countervailing power in the strengthening and improvement of the
> 50:12
> powers that be again I certainly do not
> 50:18
> say that in any way as a kind of accusation or indictment only in order
> 50:23
> to characterize as the difference between the present state of affairs and the julep to 19th
> 50:31
> century and in this country the turkeys would a class analysis of the society
> 50:39
> still have any meaning given the the widespread affluence and the repression
> 50:46
> of any significant consciousness of problems within the society I can't help
> 50:54
> it but I do believe that we still have a class Society a class Society is not
> 51:00
> characterized by the increasing higher standard of living of the wid classes
> 51:06
> what is characterized today most outspokenly characterized by the fact
> 51:13
> that we have one group or class which by
> 51:19
> virtue of its position in the social and economic process decides and determines
> 51:27
> the fate of the entire population and that the majority of the population
> 51:33
> again by virtue of they are positioned in the social and economic process is
> 51:41
> really not in any way self determinating
> 51:46
> in speaking of classes let me only first bring up something else when you speak of of social change and how it takes
> 51:52
> place and I'll quote here you say first which we've already said the choice is
> 51:58
> primarily but only primarily the privilege of those groups which have attained control over the productive
> 52:03
> processes their control projects the way of life for the whole and the ensuing and enslaving necessity is the result of
> 52:10
> their freedom then you say and the possible abolition of this necessity pens on a new ingression of freedom not
> 52:16
> any freedom but that of men who comprehend the given necessity as insufferable pain and as unnecessary so
> 52:23
> that here you set up with your criteria of social change a group which is I
> 52:29
> would say from this almost totally excluded from benefit to the society and you make this clear as you said earlier
> 52:35
> in terms of labor movement and you also make it clear when you speak of of the people in general and their ability to
> 52:41
> change the situation where you argue that in the redistribution of wealth and
> 52:47
> equalization of classes there is simply a new stratification characteristic of advanced industrial society and not any
> 52:53
> basic chance to change that method of stratification and ratification but then
> 53:00
> you close your book and this is only the last half page out of 257 it's true when
> 53:06
> you say however underneath the conservative popular base is the substratum of the outcasts and Outsiders
> 53:13
> the exploited and persecuted of other races and colors the unemployed and unemployable they exist outside the
> 53:19
> democratic process they're their life
> 53:26
> their life is the most immediate in the most real need for ending intolerable conditions and institutions thus their
> 53:32
> opposition is revolutionary even if their consciousness is not the fact that they start refusing to play the game
> 53:38
> maybe the fact which marks the beginning of the end of the period now is the fact
> 53:44
> that you spend only a half-page in this in any a sense characteristic of your evaluation of the possibility of this
> 53:49
> tendency only partly characteristic the other part is that as I say only the
> 53:56
> beginnings that may mark easy beginnings these group still are too powerless to
> 54:04
> accomplish a change by themselves what I would like to add here that if I speak
> 54:11
> of the ingestion of a new freedom motivated by the awareness of
> 54:18
> intolerable the conditions that does not necessarily and exclusively me and
> 54:24
> abject poverty and misery I for example
> 54:29
> can very well envisage conditions under which the social groups which are not
> 54:37
> prefer which are not a little in a live which do not live in misery become aware
> 54:42
> of the insanity of a society in which
> 54:47
> they have to continue in which their to continue alienated
> 54:52
> labor continual performances which they actually hate continue the struggle for
> 55:01
> existence which has become more and more a trace in the face of as impossible
> 55:09
> abolition of loyalties and that this awareness may well spread and become one
> 55:15
> of those potentially changing forces there currently are a number of programs
> 55:20
> taking place throughout the country and of course the one that have gotten the most press recently of the Appalachians for Appalachia but also here in New York
> 55:28
> City and elsewhere in Oakland California there have been a number of programs in which an enormous amount of money is
> 55:34
> being spent in extremely small locations and an attempt to take this particular group of the population and somehow
> 55:40
> integrate them into the society and I'm thinking of a project like the one going on in Harlem which is going to in which
> 55:46
> eighty million dollars is going to be invested or one on the Lower East Side which I believe has been allocated 120
> 55:51
> million dollars and as I understand it much of this money has come from extremely sophisticated extremely
> 55:57
> sophisticated area of the leadership of the nation do you think that these kinds
> 56:02
> of programs or any kind of program will be able to reduce the number of those who are unemployed and unemployable in
> 56:09
> other words which way do you see this tendency going do you see this this potentially revolutionary group increasing report or decreasing that is
> 56:19
> very hard to say because it depends entirely on the national and
> 56:24
> international situation as to the project you mentioned naturally any and
> 56:30
> every project that produces even in a small area misery and poverty and dirt
> 56:38
> is good and should be supported but
> 56:43
> without illusions that they do not have the key for the decisive change and it
> 56:51
> seems to be a clear because this is not a local Messiah but a fire that not only
> 56:58
> concerns the nation as a whole about a soup national core to John normal well let me
> 57:06
> ask one final question what do you see and I think in a sense you've answered this what do you see the role of of
> 57:12
> scholars and intellectuals to be given this particular state of society where
> 57:19
> there doesn't seem to be at least if your analysis is correct much concrete action that can be done at this point
> 57:26
> and indeed I'd say your analysis is a rather pessimistic one yes it is a
> 57:31
> pessimistic one and precisely in this situation as the intellectual the scholar perhaps has a more responsible
> 57:40
> or than he ever had before because it is his task today against all a apparent or
> 57:49
> real success to preserve or rather to
> 57:56
> develop those concepts those ideas those
> 58:01
> aspirations which do not succumb to the oil or the seeming benefits of any
> 58:10
> presence aasaiya t but which concepts and modes of thought which remain loyal
> 58:17
> to the essentially o it hopes and aspirations of mankind for a society in
> 58:25
> which as a struggle for existence as a deed pacified this is today and more
> 58:31
> than ever before a real possibility and the entire power and the entire wealth
> 58:37
> of our society is at present directed against this possibility precisely
> 58:44
> because it is over here so in this situation discolor and the intellectual has one of the most decisive tasks thank
> 58:53
> you very much we've been talking to dr. Herbert mark who's a professor of philosophy at Brandeis University and
> 58:58
> author of a recent for one-dimensional man published by beacon press and John Fannin an editor of a New York
> 59:05
> publishing house
>
>
> *****************************************
thanks GZ

On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 9:48:22 PM UTC-5, jdcha...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 4:41:34 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> > Jordy C. wrote:
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gyL5ie6-x0
> >
> > Quite of ionterest, I am reading the transcript as of now...
> >
> > **********************************
> >
> > Transcript
> >
> >
> > 0:00
> > sitting with me as dr. Herbert minutiae a professor of politics and philosophy at Brandeis University and the author of
> > 0:07
> > the recent book entitled one-dimensional man published by beacon press and also John Simon who's an editor of New York
> > 0:13
> > publishing house and we're going to be discussing dr. marcoh whose book one-dimensional man and this is a book
> > 0:20
> > as I understand it which is about the United States and its general thesis is
> > 0:25
> > that in certain significant ways we have reached situation or are reaching a
> > 0:30
> > situation with it which is extremely close to a totalitarian society and I
> > 0:37
> > think we'll begin by discussing what precisely we mean by this and I want to quote from dr. Marcus's book you're
> > 0:44
> > right by virtue of the way in his organized his technological base contemporary industrial society tends to
> > 0:51
> > be totalitarian for totalitarian is not only a terroristic political coordination of society but also a non
> > 0:58
> > terroristic economic technical coordination which operates through the manipulation of needs by vested
> > 1:05
> > interests it does precludes the emergence of an effective opposition against the whole not only the specific
> > 1:12
> > form of government or party rule makes for totalitarianism but also a specific
> > 1:17
> > system of production and distribution which may well be compatible with a pluralism of parties newspapers
> > 1:23
> > countervailing powers etc and I wonder if you'd begin by telling us precisely
> > 1:28
> > what you mean in this sense by totalitarian yes may I begin by a
> > 1:34
> > qualifying a little what you said I wish only my book total of dear we see a
> > 1:39
> > United States a deal esse quotation shows with certain tendencies not more
> > 1:47
> > certain tendencies which I think are observable in the most advanced areas of
> > 1:55
> > industrial civilization the most advanced area of industrial civilization
> > 2:01
> > of course is the United States today but even in the United States the tendencies
> > 2:07
> > to which I point are prevailing if they
> > 2:12
> > are prevailing at or not simply beginning to show themselves only in certain advanced
> > 2:20
> > areas meaning as is very known that are still vast regions of under development
> > 2:26
> > of poverty even in the United States now by a totalitarian I used the term fully
> > 2:34
> > aware that this might violate certain taboos we are used to apply the term
> > 2:42
> > totalitarian only to well first the fascist and Nazi society then the
> > 2:49
> > communist society that is to say we are used to apply the term totalitarian to
> > 2:55
> > societies under more or less terroristic dictatorship with a one-party system
> > 3:02
> > with the more or less terroristic elimination of all opposition I believe
> > 3:10
> > that such a confined restricted use of the term totalitarian is itself
> > 3:16
> > ideological because it may serve to cover up the fact at least in my opinion
> > 3:23
> > a fact where totalitarian tendencies are beginning to show even in societies
> > 3:31
> > which are still democratic which preserves in democratic poses and institutions which have several parties
> > 3:39
> > which may even have countervailing forces by totalitarian I mean the
> > 3:49
> > constellation of situation enrich the private as well as public existence of
> > 3:57
> > man of the individual is controlled is
> > 4:04
> > exposed to standardised required ways of
> > 4:11
> > behavior standardized imposed values standardized imposed needs this can be
> > 4:19
> > done by a private as well as by a public you're cutting it can be done why are
> > 4:25
> > the correctly Democratic Media of mass communication and so on it is in a way a
> > 4:33
> > consequence as a quote source of technical formulas which implies mass
> > 4:40
> > production and mass distribution mass production and mass distribution in turn
> > 4:46
> > require a considerable degree of standardization a considerable degree of
> > 4:52
> > submission of the individual to pre given and superimposed values ideas
> > 5:01
> > aspirations goers and so on is this a necessary condition of this particular productive capacity and system
> > 5:09
> > well the tale of necessary apply to history is a very question of the term
> > 5:16
> > we can see in a strict sense if you mean it in the sense of a physical law nothing is necessarily an estimate I do
> > 5:24
> > think it is the by-product at present inevitable byproduct of the way in which
> > 5:32
> > technical progress actually has taken place in industrial society and this and
> > 5:40
> > and this this argument applies as well to societies that are organized and I more or less individualistic basis as
> > 5:47
> > well as those that are collectivistic aliy organized that is the same critique
> > 5:52
> > applies as well to the soviet union or to the countries in the Soviet bloc as it does to the United States you would
> > 5:58
> > you would argue that I would say it applies in the sense that similar tendencies oh I think observable there
> > 6:06
> > of course was vast differences based on the entirely different foundation and
> > 6:12
> > organization of the entire economy but in as much as the Soviet Union will very
> > 6:19
> > soon join the most advanced areas of industrial civilization I think the two
> > 6:25
> > systems will become more or less assimilated I think I think we want to make clear at this point because you do
> > 6:31
> > make it clear in your book that you do see differences between the Soviet Union and the United States differences
> > 6:37
> > and maybe you are a ground away where the obvious difference is that the
> > 6:42
> > society as I just mentioned is organized on an essentially different basis the
> > 6:49
> > collective ownership and control of the means of production regardless of whether or not you consider it as
> > 6:55
> > already socialist or not socialist at all is a sufficiently different form a
> > 7:02
> > society organized on the basis of private control and ownership of the means of production to make for decisive
> > 7:10
> > differences in the tendencies of development there is also if there is there not a difference in the legal
> > 7:17
> > basis of control by the state or is there nobody mid by legal basis well we
> > 7:24
> > are to some extent individuals and their own participation and their own ability to dissent are protected more in the
> > 7:33
> > American system than in the Soviet system they are certainly more protected
> > 7:39
> > they are even institutionalized as the American system they are not institutionalized in the Soviet system
> > 7:45
> > but precisely here I have my way I have a great fear that this
> > 7:52
> > institutionalization of civil rights and especially the right and Liberty to dissent is gradually eroded is reduced
> > 8:01
> > not much at all not by a conspiracy but simply by the
> > 8:06
> > mechanisms of technical goals within the
> > 8:13
> > framework of the established institutions which are before we get
> > 8:19
> > into a discussion of that particular area since we're attempting to define
> > 8:25
> > your use of totalitarian which I take it is quite different than say call Friedreich's use of the word oh yes I
> > 8:32
> > wanted to ask about the about the the
> > 8:37
> > applicability of the concept to the non advanced sectors of the world where
> > 8:44
> > particularly those countries that are now labeled socialist and are going into four extents planning and and use of many of the
> > 8:52
> > kinds of controls that you suggest exist in advanced industrial society Ghana Cuba Algeria for example the definition
> > 9:01
> > begin to apply in these countries as well on these areas that is one of the
> > 9:07
> > most difficult questions to raise and to answer on the one hand I would say and
> > 9:14
> > it may sound paradoxical although I don't think it is paradoxical that these
> > 9:19
> > countries precisely because they are not yet at the advanced stage of
> > 9:26
> > industrialization where they have to buy all the negative features of this kind
> > 9:34
> > of industrialization that these countries have a better chance of
> > 9:41
> > proceeding differently that these countries have a better chance of building form Scott a failure and a more
> > 9:50
> > human society but there are other impediments here namely that the vast
> > 9:59
> > majority of these countries is too weak in resources intellectual as well as
> > 10:06
> > material to do it by themselves they are by themselves as far as I can
> > 10:13
> > see again with some exceptions incapable of accumulating the funds capital funds
> > 10:21
> > that would be necessary for development and therefore will have to rely on
> > 10:26
> > outside help which can come only from the east or from the west and I am a
> > 10:33
> > friends of less this dependence on outside health would not almost
> > 10:38
> > inevitably these countries lead along the path that present gone either by the
> > 10:47
> > east or by serviced so that the idea of a third force is still a more or less a
> > 10:53
> > utopian idea one more question on in this general area the Isaac torture in
> > 11:02
> > his book the the great contest where he dealt with with issues of the Cold War
> > 11:09
> > which were not really central to this discussion suggested that the the
> > 11:15
> > potential the ultimate potential for freedom in the organization of the in in
> > 11:21
> > this sense of the totalitarian soviet society was far greater than existed in
> > 11:26
> > any area of the West because of the of the way in which the controls were applied and were used would you agree
> > 11:33
> > with this the formulation of mr. Deutsch is I agree up to a very definite point
> > 11:38
> > if Georgia wants to say that the establishment of a plant society it does
> > 11:46
> > not have to cope with the vested interests which otherwise stand in the
> > 11:53
> > way of a utilization of all available resources for the satisfaction of vital
> > 12:00
> > needs wherever they are still not satisfied rather than proceeding through wastes
> > 12:07
> > and planned obsolescence if he wants to say that I agree entirely there
> > 12:13
> > searching a centrally planned society in which the counteracting vested interest
> > 12:19
> > are indeed eliminated would have a far greater potential to develop humanity
> > 12:26
> > let's say in short then another society but here I think we have to place the
> > 12:32
> > development of Soviet society in the actual context of peaceful or rather
> > 12:38
> > hostile coexistence which means that the Soviet Union - at present sees itself
> > 12:45
> > committed to divert a vast section of its resources of the social wealth to
> > 12:52
> > armament production and thereby has to
> > 12:57
> > impose sacrifices which otherwise would not have to be imposed I think maybe it
> > 13:07
> > something we got to explore a little bit at this point is is it to go back to this question of the territory and the
> > 13:12
> > reason I come back to it I think is because it isn't the provocative word to be used in the context of modern American life one of
> > 13:21
> > the things you talk about in this regard is the range in the nature of choice available in this society and one should
> > 13:30
> > say I suppose in the first place that it seems that there is a great range of choice to some extent we have to all choose our political candidates and our
> > 13:37
> > pretty well our political leaders from a range of candidates we choose what the particular job you want to go to what
> > 13:43
> > education education we want to go to really choose a candidate or are they not chosen for us do i and you won't
> > 13:51
> > Weber it is choose a candidate which was actually or running order somebody else does a machine or I don't know what do
> > 13:58
> > it well there is a choice at least between different candidates with different points of view mr. Barry
> > 14:03
> > Goldwater has a different orientation I believed and then our president Johnson
> > 14:10
> > yes certainly are these real choices they are real choices wherever you have
> > 14:16
> > a real difference of opinion now I'm again God you early suspicious
> > 14:23
> > of the speeches and platforms and programs made before the elections they
> > 14:31
> > are usually hardly in any relation to what happened after the election if you
> > 14:36
> > have still a real difference of opinion I would say you indeed have a choice and
> > 14:42
> > you have freedom of choice but that is precisely what I start to doubt the mere
> > 14:48
> > fact is that we have two parties does not yet by itself mean that these
> > 14:54
> > parties differ in the accenture attitudes and opinions there may well be
> > 15:02
> > differences within one and the same accepted and established framework in
> > 15:08
> > which case both parties would compete in preserving the existing framework rather
> > 15:16
> > than working for alternatives if they are any alternatives one of the
> > 15:21
> > traditional areas of dissent aside from the political arena choice have been the academies and the
> > 15:27
> > distance of an intellectual community which at times historically has seen
> > 15:32
> > things differently than the current establishment of a society do you see in
> > 15:39
> > in the academies the existence of a real dissent and a real opposition of
> > 15:44
> > alternatives by academies you mean universities colleges and so on yes well
> > 15:53
> > I would say since this is precisely the field where I do have experience that is
> > 15:59
> > perhaps today the area which is still the freest of order my long experience
> > 16:07
> > with students has shown me that these students at least when they enter the
> > 16:13
> > university are still entirely open minded that they think by themselves
> > 16:20
> > that they preserve their open mind that they are highly critical and that's a
> > 16:28
> > really talk at least if they know that they can talk that depends on the with
> > 16:34
> > whom they talk gradually however the dire need makes itself first to look for
> > 16:42
> > a job they know perfectly well that if they go on like that if they continue to
> > 16:48
> > have really dissenting opinions and not only slight differences in opinion it
> > 16:53
> > may be very difficult for them to find a job and that sooner or later they have
> > 16:59
> > to adopt modes of behavior in which at least they conceal the dissent or
> > 17:07
> > express it in such a way that it does not cause a scandal and I certainly
> > 17:13
> > don't blame them for doing it but is this really is this really sufficient to explain a lack of this and
> > 17:19
> > there have been scholars and intellectuals who have been able to take a dissenting position in terms of
> > 17:24
> > publication and one thinks of individuals like Searight Mills and and in a much different sense and in a much
> > 17:30
> > more popular sense Vance Packard how would you account for the existence of these people and how would you account
> > 17:37
> > for the fact that there are not more likely I would not I say and I don't think I did say that
> > 17:44
> > we have no dissent and what I did say and what I mean and what I would like to
> > 17:50
> > repeat is we have a considerable amount of dissent we can afford this dissent
> > 17:58
> > because it remains completely and entirely in effective we can afford to
> > 18:07
> > have C right minutes we can afford to let Vance Packard say things which
> > 18:14
> > formally would have been very meticulously considered because our
> > 18:22
> > society is so strong so cohesive so a powerful that these revelations don't do
> > 18:31
> > it any harm and in a sense that is good but in another sense and perhaps and the
> > 18:38
> > deeper sentence is very bad John YES on the question I have two questions really
> > 18:44
> > but first I'd like to ask you about the particular phenomenon of Vance Packard uh he sells in the hundreds of thousands
> > 18:54
> > of copies and is in his widely read and
> > 18:59
> > and yet seems to have no real influence in the society it's the kind of thing
> > 19:04
> > that just slips off the surface that it makes perhaps a momentary impression and
> > 19:10
> > disappears and of course in the case of see right mills professor mills wrote a
> > 19:17
> > book club listen Yankee which sold over 400,000 copies and was read as I noticed
> > 19:22
> > by Subway's by secretaries writing on the subway and yet again made no
> > 19:27
> > impression the society seems not only confident to allow dissenters to exist
> > 19:34
> > but to allow them to be fairly widely disseminated in some cases what how
> > 19:41
> > would you want to comment on the phenomenon of the lack of impression of these people in the end the processes
> > 19:47
> > and devices by with which this is accomplished yes because I believe there's another in
> > 19:53
> > rushon which overrides and we consent in the last analysis destroys as the or
> > 20:01
> > mate it makes impotent as the impressions left as these books there is name is the
> > 20:07
> > impression that that never mind after our this society functions
> > 20:13
> > beautifully and efficiently it has succeeded in vastly increasing astonied
> > 20:21
> > of living in distributing its benefits over larger section of the former
> > 20:27
> > underprivileged population we still have these large areas of poverty but nothing
> > 20:36
> > proves that these areas cannot sooner or later also be taken care off
> > 20:42
> > so what these people reveal and indict are simply byproducts of the famous
> > 20:54
> > affluent society byproducts which are present we have to cope with but which
> > 21:00
> > are not really in any way serious and dangerous the the event in the in the
> > 21:07
> > recent past that seems most to bear this out it seems to me it was the
> > 21:13
> > assassination of the president where there existed at least the opportunity
> > 21:20
> > for an act and and the consequences of
> > 21:25
> > the active to have a deep impress on the American people and yet it was as if the
> > 21:31
> > the display of that for days was like another television rugged similar to
> > 21:37
> > show exact which we had after four days it was completely incorporated into the daily business of life there was a new
> > 21:44
> > president things are going on yes I'm well what I wanted to ask you was to
> > 21:50
> > perhaps comment a little bit more on the the the specific techniques and methods
> > 21:55
> > since the the mass communications industry plays such a large role in this
> > 22:01
> > whole process would you care to comment on that
> > 22:06
> > yes but again I don't want to make the impression that I consider the only
> > 22:13
> > thing as a conspiracy once a part of the media of mass communication we have a
> > 22:20
> > conspiratorial aspect they are to only a remind you of see a set of the frame of
> > 22:27
> > self-censorship which is exercised by the press by the movie industry whatever
> > 22:33
> > it is a self-censorship far more effective and far more efficient than
> > 22:38
> > any state instituted censor that is not the point I think that these are all
> > 22:46
> > these developments have a very rational basis namely precisely let our system
> > 22:56
> > works and because it works because it is so productive because it distributes
> > 23:04
> > such benefits we repress the pious which we pay for this affluence a world which
> > 23:12
> > by the way I would only use a in quotation marks it is this repression it is the repression of the price it cost
> > 23:19
> > the sacrifices that are involved which
> > 23:25
> > is actually that what bothers me most raises a question because thus far even
> > 23:31
> > speaking about such here again I use quotation marks intangibles in quotation
> > 23:37
> > marks is the range of choice available not being truly a meaningful choice and the social sciences and the academic
> > 23:45
> > institutions while tolerating some dissent nonetheless not really participating in the development and
> > 23:51
> > movement of the society what's wrong with the society as it now stands is there a need to change the society
> > 23:57
> > I mean don't after all we have haven't we if not if we haven't achieved utopia
> > 24:03
> > aren't we getting close to reaching utopia at least in terms of the production of material goods and
> > 24:09
> > physical comfort well that question leads to Z what I consider the calls or
> > 24:15
> > who at problem rods in a rather large cause of mine as
> > 24:21
> > universities a question it was a kind of examination question I asked the
> > 24:27
> > students I want to change I want you to tell me what is wrong was a society I never got an answer
> > 24:33
> > nobody could or nobody dare to tell me what is actually wrong with a society did the students want the course and
> > 24:39
> > knows I didn't because again I completely understand why they didn't is
> > 24:44
> > I want to tell me or didn't know what is wrong with it is an T I have to become a
> > 24:52
> > little philosophical and even a little utopian for me the world utopia makes no
> > 24:59
> > sense because in my view there's nothing today which could be a reason to be
> > 25:04
> > called utopia mankind has reached a stage where if it wanted to it could actually within a
> > 25:11
> > relatively short time translate into reality even the most utopian idea so
> > 25:18
> > the term utopia again is a subterfuge
> > 25:23
> > what as long as a society is that it retains that it perpetuates the struggle
> > 25:31
> > for existence tall frustration waste
> > 25:39
> > although all the intellectual and material capabilities are there to
> > 25:47
> > pacify this table before existence in the international arena as well as
> > 25:53
> > within the nation and force a private individual and by a pacification of the
> > 26:01
> > struggle for existence I mean something I think very concrete I expressed it in
> > 26:07
> > the phrase and I think your listener will listen as we know what I'm talking
> > 26:14
> > about the abolition of alienated labor we have reached a stage where industrial
> > 26:21
> > civilization really could reduce working time to such an extent that the
> > 26:28
> > traditional proportion between working time and free timelessly worst that free time becomes
> > 26:34
> > full time and working time marginal time this would involve a complete
> > 26:42
> > transvaluation of values it would cancel
> > 26:47
> > some of the most cherished abuse of the established organization for example the
> > 26:54
> > need for earning a living instead of making life and end in itself and not a
> > 27:01
> > means to attain an end which is either never attained or only in an age where
> > 27:06
> > you cannot enjoy it anymore this I think today is the alternative and this art relative is systematically
> > 27:14
> > again not in terms of a conspiracy about objectively prevented by the way in
> > 27:23
> > which we continue as he established direction of progress well there are two
> > 27:28
> > points there and it would be fair to rephrase the first part of that to say in a kind of shorthand sense that while
> > 27:36
> > we have the possibility of living within a society of Plenty the society is still organized as if it were a society of
> > 27:43
> > scarcity no for one very simple reason
> > 27:49
> > you don't need plenty in order to have a humane society I would even go so far
> > 27:57
> > and there again you will have to protect me I would even be a good so far as to
> > 28:03
> > say that one of the crimes of our present area you are is that we have too
> > 28:10
> > much there in a situation where the vast majority of the people of the earth have
> > 28:16
> > to litter so it is not a question of Plenty well let me change to other than the comparison between enough we had the
> > 28:23
> > potential of developing a society based on enough and we're still living as a society based on scarcity that's correct
> > 28:31
> > now the second part of that the second part of what you just said can I interrupt you I'm a question of enough
> > 28:38
> > and scarcity isn't it also true that
> > 28:44
> > that the the concept of scarcity doesn't apply because the the need to waste is
> > 28:52
> > so paramount injustice society certainly the need to waste as paramount as a need
> > 28:58
> > to waste is absolutely essential because it is a need for waste which in turn
> > 29:06
> > perpetuates the need for earning a living the need for growth for doing
> > 29:12
> > work which in fact technically is already superfluous can we make you into
> > 29:19
> > a bit of a visionary and ask you to discuss what the nature of a society that where the concepts of work and
> > 29:26
> > leisure breakdown will be like or what you would expect you cannot because we
> > 29:34
> > are at present I think utterly incapable to draft anything like a blueprint for
> > 29:41
> > such a society it is so easily ridiculed
> > 29:49
> > because we always assume that the individuals si have been preconditioned
> > 29:56
> > si are now will suddenly be placed in a situation in which as they don't have to
> > 30:02
> > work for a living anymore in which they don't have to earn a living anymore in which most of their time as free time
> > 30:10
> > and it is then very easy to say and I agree that would be a catastrophe and a detail perhaps the greatest catastrophe
> > 30:17
> > of the civilization it would be complete chaos it would be a nightmare there we
> > 30:23
> > cannot and risen envision such a society because it was so radically different
> > 30:28
> > from what we have now that any such vision would really be innovative
> > 30:34
> > responsible well let me try this comment then that we have the potential of
> > 30:39
> > developing however it might be organized and set up something approaching what has traditionally been considered a
> > 30:46
> > utopian kind of existence yes now then
> > 30:51
> > you then go on in the second part of your earlier statement to say that you see the society however
> > 30:57
> > moving and with tendencies which not only are not leading toward the establishment or existence of this kind
> > 31:03
> > of society but are actually leading in the other direction and this is what I wanted to to question you on because
> > 31:09
> > hadn't had always been true that the technological abilities of society have
> > 31:14
> > been ahead of the social abilities of the society to use utilize these techniques isn't this simply a question
> > 31:22
> > of cultural lag why isn't it that we aren't in fact slowly evolving a
> > 31:28
> > framework whereby we can use these technological developments to create a healthy human society because in my view
> > 31:36
> > it is not simply a time lag or a cultural lag in any other sense the
> > 31:44
> > decisive difference here is that what is in worth is not simply a better
> > 31:51
> > utilization and a better development of the available technical resources but
> > 31:58
> > what I called a radical redirection of technical progress itself and such a
> > 32:05
> > radical redirection of technical progress namely first to the satisfaction of vital needs and to a
> > 32:12
> > pacification such a radical redirection is in my view not possible within the
> > 32:21
> > established framework but would involve a sweeping change in our institutions
> > 32:29
> > which we're still institutions adopted to scarcity and not to what we
> > 32:37
> > potentially have now why can't this change be made let me let me also quote
> > 32:44
> > at this point something from your introduction that may or may not throw a light on on what I'm getting at you said
> > 32:50
> > here that the way in which is assigned he organizes the life of its members involves an initial choice between
> > 32:57
> > historical alternatives which are determined by the inherited level of the material and intellectual culture the
> > 33:03
> > choice itself results from the play of the dominant interests it anticipates
> > 33:08
> > specific modes transforming and utilized man in nature and rejects other modes etc the word I was I was looking at
> > 33:15
> > there with the word choice if I would not believe that such a redirection is
> > 33:22
> > historically possible I wouldn't have written my book as far as it choices
> > 33:27
> > concerned there indeed I am very pessimistic because the choice would
> > 33:35
> > require among other things men who live
> > 33:41
> > in the dire need for such a change this dire need is as I pointed out today
> > 33:49
> > effectively repressed it would furthermore require that these people
> > 33:56
> > who live in need of such a change actually have the power to bring the
> > 34:01
> > change about this to at present is not the case
> > 34:07
> > does anybody map it from this society as it's currently set up yes most certainly
> > 34:12
> > I think if not the majority at least a large segment of the population benefit
> > 34:19
> > for it and that is precisely why it is so serious a wider so pain for you that
> > 34:24
> > you criticize a society but I believe that Wars at stake than these benefits
> > 34:32
> > where to use a cliche or though I hate it I seriously believe that the chances
> > 34:40
> > of a human and humane existence for all without war the are at stake and in view
> > 34:48
> > of these chances I think one has to criticize even a society which is more
> > 34:54
> > beneficial to more people perhaps and any preceding society in history but in
> > 35:01
> > a sense it also it also doesn't it although it may benefit some members more than others it also does well it
> > 35:13
> > also wraps up those who benefit to some extent and and doesn't allow for their own full full development as human
> > 35:20
> > beings and I think this is what you meant when you spoke at one point the world to become the staff of total administration which absorbs even the
> > 35:26
> > administrators yes it absorbs not only the administrators it suffocates not
> > 35:34
> > only the need for a redirection of progress but it even does a best to
> > 35:41
> > arrest as a development of concepts and modes of thoughts which could define
> > 35:49
> > good sketch alternatives of the development not only a quantitative the
> > 35:56
> > changes but qualitative changes that is why I have the critique of present a
> > 36:02
> > positivism and a criticism which I consider a pseudoaneurysm a false and
> > 36:10
> > premise ism because it Orient's itself on a restricted and manipulated
> > 36:16
> > experience I just want to push you in this on a second and then on John I know has a question previously it might be
> > 36:25
> > said that a society that benefitted certain groups in the society rather than others had to be maintained in the
> > 36:31
> > eyes of those who benefited because it was simply impossible technologically for the group that benefited to maintain
> > 36:38
> > its particular benefits in an equalitarian totally equalitarian system
> > 36:45
> > but now we have a society where that is no longer impossible where in fact those who benefit need not give up very much
> > 36:51
> > in order to share their benefits with the others in the society through the advent of automation cybernetics and
> > 36:58
> > these techniques also in the current situation isn't it true that those who
> > 37:04
> > benefit could benefit more in a different social situation why then isn't it possible that traditional
> > 37:12
> > leadership groups themselves could at this point under these conditions make the transition to a different kind of
> > 37:17
> > society because it would be as far as I draw the first case of their story in
> > 37:23
> > which a invested and intentionally darshan or a ruling class if you wish
> > 37:30
> > has voluntarily abdicated the chances that the
> > 37:36
> > a not benefit the way they benefit now the risk of serious disruptions and even
> > 37:45
> > of a catastrophe and Worf is such that they will understandably not be willing
> > 37:53
> > to voluntarily to institute so exchanges
> > 38:00
> > direct from in the same society I think argues that they're um are are certain
> > 38:07
> > strong reasons why those who even those involved in leadership do not benefit as greatly into society as they could from
> > 38:14
> > a different kind of society couldn't this act is a sufficient stimulation to Lana where leadership tonight a
> > 38:20
> > transition there no as far as I remember Indian spy that simply well for example
> > 38:28
> > that the rich are not happy now in the first place I never took that very
> > 38:34
> > seriously and I don't believe that the unhappiness or so it should really be a
> > 38:41
> > matter of serious concern and in the second place I don't think you can
> > 38:46
> > interpret this reluctance primarily in Psychological terms what is involved
> > 38:52
> > after all is a deed to speak perfectly frankly a fundamental change and as he
> > 38:58
> > established political and economic institutions has already indicated for
> > 39:04
> > example a plant economy really plant economy with priority set on the
> > 39:10
> > satisfaction of needs is not compatible
> > 39:15
> > with the present private control of the economy with these individual one final
> > 39:22
> > question on this point with these with this leadership be giving up much more than simply a question of status and
> > 39:28
> > leadership would they be giving up any material conditions of livelihood again
> > 39:36
> > looking back at history it is at least possible or probable that they would
> > 39:45
> > indeed have to give up much of what they have now that others would move in we want to do
> > 39:52
> > it in a different way that I would indeed say John yes you describe an a
> > 40:00
> > contradiction or an antagonism between the need for change and I assume this is
> > 40:07
> > a kind of objective need that exists without the wishes or rub or feelings of
> > 40:13
> > of anyone and the repression of the expression of the need for this change
> > 40:18
> > now do you foresee in any in any sense
> > 40:25
> > perhaps even in the classical Marcion sense a breakdown based on this kind of
> > 40:30
> > contradiction in the system that will force some kind of change perhaps not
> > 40:35
> > the one that we want or the one that you foresee the possibilities of such a
> > 40:42
> > breakdown are such that I think that
> > 40:48
> > yields a most rabid Marxist would wish them for example I could imagine that a
> > 40:55
> > nuclear war or even a short of in declare war a large-scale international
> > 41:02
> > war would release the forces that may
> > 41:08
> > make for such a redirection of progress but who's insane enough to wish that you
> > 41:16
> > don't see it see such a breakdown stemming from less cataclysmic factors
> > 41:24
> > like stagnation within the economy or some kind of breakdown in the in the
> > 41:29
> > arrangement and organization of our social and sexual mores for example
> > 41:35
> > there's a group in among writers for example Norman Mailer
> > 41:42
> > in particular who talks about the sexual revolution these factors have any
> > 41:49
> > significance to your way of thinking could we expand sexual other kind of a whole moral Christ yes well that's what
> > 41:54
> > I think there is more lovely disasters and almost cubital applications of the
> > 42:02
> > term evolution we have in our evolution of the coca-cola company brings out the bottle it is a revolution and bottling
> > 42:09
> > we have a revolution in the order and whoever a loom evolution and everything only we don't have a revolution rather
> > 42:17
> > the only field in which the term revolution makes any sense I don't see a sexual revolution at all
> > 42:23
> > on the contrary as I try to point out in my book I see a very nice very welcome
> > 42:30
> > and very as pleasurable and pleasant adaptation of sexual mores to the
> > 42:37
> > requirements of the affluent society which simply cannot do any more with a
> > 42:43
> > Victorian morality that has nothing to do with an evolution took to follow up
> > 42:50
> > on that the this very pleasant
> > 42:58
> > development than our sexual and social mores that you talk about seems to
> > 43:04
> > develop somewhat in opposition to the to the non terroristic totalitarian izing
> > 43:12
> > of a society yes well no I doubt even let doubt even let because the more
> > 43:19
> > sexual freedom people have within the established within the establishment and
> > 43:28
> > without being punished by the establishment the easier they are to
> > 43:33
> > guide the easier they are to manipulate now please don't misunderstand me I will
> > 43:38
> > be the last to condemn this liberation and sexual morality let me ask you a
> > 43:45
> > question historically uh maybe you can answer you don't want to or can't answer this but and this I thought of this one John
> > 43:53
> > brought up the question of the web llama use of a revolution that changes in our
> > 43:58
> > sexual mores in addition we find certain tendencies taking place in art and
> > 44:04
> > literature and also in the use of drugs which seem possibly to be interrelated
> > 44:09
> > here there's been a great deal of talk about another revolution the the drug
> > 44:15
> > revolution the use of consciousness expanding drugs were with mr. Timothy
> > 44:20
> > Leary and if if International Federation for internal freedom and similarly
> > 44:26
> > artists in perhaps analogous Y and in Abstract Expressionism in tendencies
> > 44:32
> > like this have have developed an art form which becomes at least to me so solipsistic that it almost ceases to
> > 44:38
> > have any relevance other than for oneself are there historical parallels
> > 44:43
> > and these kinds of developments and other social tendencies and developments and when one here is a great deal I I
> > 44:50
> > was thinking of the decline of the Roman Empire for example as being a time of libertine ism and a concern with extreme
> > 45:01
> > individuality the period following the French Revolution yes rather period following the French Revolution the
> > 45:08
> > period of Sydney liked was slightly different because there did you at a considerable degree of genuine freedom
> > 45:16
> > in these things provided you belong to deter a nest away the others didn't have it and never did have it as far as it
> > 45:24
> > dogs are concerned this is very close to my heart because again unfortunately in the universities you know we are very
> > 45:32
> > much concerned with it in this respect I'm a terrible reactionary as in many
> > 45:38
> > other aspects I think that Doc's are reprehensible and that the only case in
> > 45:45
> > which they are to be welcomed is in case of pain of insufferable physical pain in
> > 45:53
> > all other cases they cannot possibly do what these people pretend as they do
> > 46:01
> > especially not an art literature development of consciousness or these if
> > 46:07
> > any singer acts of human freedom and if they are not the development at
> > 46:13
> > attainment of human freedom they will invariably a compressor opposite over
> > 46:18
> > they are supposed to be air to accomplish namely some kind of illusionary a happiness illusory
> > 46:25
> > contentment illusory experience which again may very well become a vehicle of
> > 46:31
> > adjustment rather than the opposite but isn't the ability in a certain sense to to take drugs which can expand your
> > 46:38
> > personal individual consciousness to their greatest extent if in fact this is what they do or to work in art forms
> > 46:45
> > which which expands one one's own feelings and emotions to the utmost
> > 46:50
> > isn't this really a kind of liberation and freedom which is unparalleled in
> > 46:56
> > history well maybe it is a revelation form things for which you shouldn't be liberated because they are precisely the
> > 47:03
> > very essence of the present state of affairs and if you liberate yourself artificially form it what you actually
> > 47:10
> > do is not develop your consciousness but arrest your consciousness in other words
> > 47:15
> > this isn't so much a freedom to as a freedom from exactly you talk to the
> > 47:21
> > misuse of the term revolution would you apply the the same approbation to the
> > 47:30
> > use of the term in in the context of the civil rights movement the Negro
> > 47:35
> > revolution as well do you see this in other words as a as a sign as a factor
> > 47:45
> > for change in the Society of a significant sword feet before you mention that I let me just point out but
> > 47:51
> > I think what possibly were working toward is some is is to see whether or not there are areas in which or forces
> > 47:58
> > within the society which offer an opportunity for social change of some kind am I wrong John no yeah that's
> > 48:03
> > right yes it is certainly this movement certainly is a movement towards social
> > 48:10
> > change I would not call it a revolution because
> > 48:15
> > I personally cannot understand how you can call a revolution a movement which
> > 48:23
> > tries to implement the principles of the Declaration of Independence I mean as a
> > 48:30
> > mere fact that we have to have such a movement today almost 200 years after
> > 48:37
> > the Declaration of Independence I think characterizes our society sufficiently
> > 48:43
> > it is not a revolution it will see a effort to finally to translate into
> > 48:52
> > reality and what was promised a centuries ago the promise was which
> > 48:58
> > actually modern society began and which is still not translated into reality
> > 49:04
> > see right mills dealt with two other groups within the society namely the
> > 49:09
> > labor movement and the intellectuals would you apply the same criticism to
> > 49:15
> > both of these groups you want to deal with them in turn I did not apply any criticism as far as I remember to the
> > 49:22
> > civil rights movement into the Negro movement as far as far as a lady I
> > 49:27
> > didn't mean criticism had sense but an estimate of every yes as far as labor
> > 49:34
> > movement is concerned or I can say is that at present organized labor in the
> > 49:41
> > United States and not only in the United States has nothing to do anymore of this
> > 49:46
> > and what Marx wants court as a polity reott and the develop a consciousness
> > 49:54
> > and see revolutionary potential off as apologia
> > 49:59
> > organized labor has today become one of the countervailing powers their
> > 50:05
> > cooperating wizards counter countervailing power in the strengthening and improvement of the
> > 50:12
> > powers that be again I certainly do not
> > 50:18
> > say that in any way as a kind of accusation or indictment only in order
> > 50:23
> > to characterize as the difference between the present state of affairs and the julep to 19th
> > 50:31
> > century and in this country the turkeys would a class analysis of the society
> > 50:39
> > still have any meaning given the the widespread affluence and the repression
> > 50:46
> > of any significant consciousness of problems within the society I can't help
> > 50:54
> > it but I do believe that we still have a class Society a class Society is not
> > 51:00
> > characterized by the increasing higher standard of living of the wid classes
> > 51:06
> > what is characterized today most outspokenly characterized by the fact
> > 51:13
> > that we have one group or class which by
> > 51:19
> > virtue of its position in the social and economic process decides and determines
> > 51:27
> > the fate of the entire population and that the majority of the population
> > 51:33
> > again by virtue of they are positioned in the social and economic process is
> > 51:41
> > really not in any way self determinating
> > 51:46
> > in speaking of classes let me only first bring up something else when you speak of of social change and how it takes
> > 51:52
> > place and I'll quote here you say first which we've already said the choice is
> > 51:58
> > primarily but only primarily the privilege of those groups which have attained control over the productive
> > 52:03
> > processes their control projects the way of life for the whole and the ensuing and enslaving necessity is the result of
> > 52:10
> > their freedom then you say and the possible abolition of this necessity pens on a new ingression of freedom not
> > 52:16
> > any freedom but that of men who comprehend the given necessity as insufferable pain and as unnecessary so
> > 52:23
> > that here you set up with your criteria of social change a group which is I
> > 52:29
> > would say from this almost totally excluded from benefit to the society and you make this clear as you said earlier
> > 52:35
> > in terms of labor movement and you also make it clear when you speak of of the people in general and their ability to
> > 52:41
> > change the situation where you argue that in the redistribution of wealth and
> > 52:47
> > equalization of classes there is simply a new stratification characteristic of advanced industrial society and not any
> > 52:53
> > basic chance to change that method of stratification and ratification but then
> > 53:00
> > you close your book and this is only the last half page out of 257 it's true when
> > 53:06
> > you say however underneath the conservative popular base is the substratum of the outcasts and Outsiders
> > 53:13
> > the exploited and persecuted of other races and colors the unemployed and unemployable they exist outside the
> > 53:19
> > democratic process they're their life
> > 53:26
> > their life is the most immediate in the most real need for ending intolerable conditions and institutions thus their
> > 53:32
> > opposition is revolutionary even if their consciousness is not the fact that they start refusing to play the game
> > 53:38
> > maybe the fact which marks the beginning of the end of the period now is the fact
> > 53:44
> > that you spend only a half-page in this in any a sense characteristic of your evaluation of the possibility of this
> > 53:49
> > tendency only partly characteristic the other part is that as I say only the
> > 53:56
> > beginnings that may mark easy beginnings these group still are too powerless to
> > 54:04
> > accomplish a change by themselves what I would like to add here that if I speak
> > 54:11
> > of the ingestion of a new freedom motivated by the awareness of
> > 54:18
> > intolerable the conditions that does not necessarily and exclusively me and
> > 54:24
> > abject poverty and misery I for example
> > 54:29
> > can very well envisage conditions under which the social groups which are not
> > 54:37
> > prefer which are not a little in a live which do not live in misery become aware
> > 54:42
> > of the insanity of a society in which
> > 54:47
> > they have to continue in which their to continue alienated
> > 54:52
> > labor continual performances which they actually hate continue the struggle for
> > 55:01
> > existence which has become more and more a trace in the face of as impossible
> > 55:09
> > abolition of loyalties and that this awareness may well spread and become one
> > 55:15
> > of those potentially changing forces there currently are a number of programs
> > 55:20
> > taking place throughout the country and of course the one that have gotten the most press recently of the Appalachians for Appalachia but also here in New York
> > 55:28
> > City and elsewhere in Oakland California there have been a number of programs in which an enormous amount of money is
> > 55:34
> > being spent in extremely small locations and an attempt to take this particular group of the population and somehow
> > 55:40
> > integrate them into the society and I'm thinking of a project like the one going on in Harlem which is going to in which
> > 55:46
> > eighty million dollars is going to be invested or one on the Lower East Side which I believe has been allocated 120
> > 55:51
> > million dollars and as I understand it much of this money has come from extremely sophisticated extremely
> > 55:57
> > sophisticated area of the leadership of the nation do you think that these kinds
> > 56:02
> > of programs or any kind of program will be able to reduce the number of those who are unemployed and unemployable in
> > 56:09
> > other words which way do you see this tendency going do you see this this potentially revolutionary group increasing report or decreasing that is
> > 56:19
> > very hard to say because it depends entirely on the national and
> > 56:24
> > international situation as to the project you mentioned naturally any and
> > 56:30
> > every project that produces even in a small area misery and poverty and dirt
> > 56:38
> > is good and should be supported but
> > 56:43
> > without illusions that they do not have the key for the decisive change and it
> > 56:51
> > seems to be a clear because this is not a local Messiah but a fire that not only
> > 56:58
> > concerns the nation as a whole about a soup national core to John normal well let me
> > 57:06
> > ask one final question what do you see and I think in a sense you've answered this what do you see the role of of
> > 57:12
> > scholars and intellectuals to be given this particular state of society where
> > 57:19
> > there doesn't seem to be at least if your analysis is correct much concrete action that can be done at this point
> > 57:26
> > and indeed I'd say your analysis is a rather pessimistic one yes it is a
> > 57:31
> > pessimistic one and precisely in this situation as the intellectual the scholar perhaps has a more responsible
> > 57:40
> > or than he ever had before because it is his task today against all a apparent or
> > 57:49
> > real success to preserve or rather to
> > 57:56
> > develop those concepts those ideas those
> > 58:01
> > aspirations which do not succumb to the oil or the seeming benefits of any
> > 58:10
> > presence aasaiya t but which concepts and modes of thought which remain loyal
> > 58:17
> > to the essentially o it hopes and aspirations of mankind for a society in
> > 58:25
> > which as a struggle for existence as a deed pacified this is today and more
> > 58:31
> > than ever before a real possibility and the entire power and the entire wealth
> > 58:37
> > of our society is at present directed against this possibility precisely
> > 58:44
> > because it is over here so in this situation discolor and the intellectual has one of the most decisive tasks thank
> > 58:53
> > you very much we've been talking to dr. Herbert mark who's a professor of philosophy at Brandeis University and
> > 58:58
> > author of a recent for one-dimensional man published by beacon press and John Fannin an editor of a New York
> > 59:05
> > publishing house
> >
> >
> > *****************************************
> thanks GZ

Jordy C wrote:

> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 4:41:34 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
>> Jordy C. wrote:
>> >
>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gyL5ie6-x0
>>
>> Quite of ionterest, I am reading the transcript as of now...
>>
>> **********************************
>>
>> Transcript
>>
>>
>> 0:00
>> sitting with me as dr. Herbert minutiae a professor of politics and philosophy at Brandeis University and the author of
>> 0:07
>> the recent book entitled one-dimensional man published by beacon press and also John Simon who's an editor of New York
>> 0:13
>> publishing house and we're going to be discussing dr. marcoh whose book one-dimensional man and this is a book
>> 0:20
>> as I understand it which is about the United States and its general thesis is
>> 0:25
>> that in certain significant ways we have reached situation or are reaching a
>> 0:30
>> situation with it which is extremely close to a totalitarian society and I
>> 0:37
>> think we'll begin by discussing what precisely we mean by this and I want to quote from dr. Marcus's book you're
>> 0:44
>> right by virtue of the way in his organized his technological base contemporary industrial society tends to
>> 0:51
>> be totalitarian for totalitarian is not only a terroristic political coordination of society but also a non
>> 0:58
>> terroristic economic technical coordination which operates through the manipulation of needs by vested
>> 1:05
>> interests it does precludes the emergence of an effective opposition against the whole not only the specific
>> 1:12
>> form of government or party rule makes for totalitarianism but also a specific
>> 1:17
>> system of production and distribution which may well be compatible with a pluralism of parties newspapers
>> 1:23
>> countervailing powers etc and I wonder if you'd begin by telling us precisely
>> 1:28
>> what you mean in this sense by totalitarian yes may I begin by a
>> 1:34
>> qualifying a little what you said I wish only my book total of dear we see a
>> 1:39
>> United States a deal esse quotation shows with certain tendencies not more
>> 1:47
>> certain tendencies which I think are observable in the most advanced areas of
>> 1:55
>> industrial civilization the most advanced area of industrial civilization
>> 2:01
>> of course is the United States today but even in the United States the tendencies
>> 2:07
>> to which I point are prevailing if they
>> 2:12
>> are prevailing at or not simply beginning to show themselves only in certain advanced
>> 2:20
>> areas meaning as is very known that are still vast regions of under development
>> 2:26
>> of poverty even in the United States now by a totalitarian I used the term fully
>> 2:34
>> aware that this might violate certain taboos we are used to apply the term
>> 2:42
>> totalitarian only to well first the fascist and Nazi society then the
>> 2:49
>> communist society that is to say we are used to apply the term totalitarian to
>> 2:55
>> societies under more or less terroristic dictatorship with a one-party system
>> 3:02
>> with the more or less terroristic elimination of all opposition I believe
>> 3:10
>> that such a confined restricted use of the term totalitarian is itself
>> 3:16
>> ideological because it may serve to cover up the fact at least in my opinion
>> 3:23
>> a fact where totalitarian tendencies are beginning to show even in societies
>> 3:31
>> which are still democratic which preserves in democratic poses and institutions which have several parties
>> 3:39
>> which may even have countervailing forces by totalitarian I mean the
>> 3:49
>> constellation of situation enrich the private as well as public existence of
>> 3:57
>> man of the individual is controlled is
>> 4:04
>> exposed to standardised required ways of
>> 4:11
>> behavior standardized imposed values standardized imposed needs this can be
>> 4:19
>> done by a private as well as by a public you're cutting it can be done why are
>> 4:25
>> the correctly Democratic Media of mass communication and so on it is in a way a
>> 4:33
>> consequence as a quote source of technical formulas which implies mass
>> 4:40
>> production and mass distribution mass production and mass distribution in turn
>> 4:46
>> require a considerable degree of standardization a considerable degree of
>> 4:52
>> submission of the individual to pre given and superimposed values ideas
>> 5:01
>> aspirations goers and so on is this a necessary condition of this particular productive capacity and system
>> 5:09
>> well the tale of necessary apply to history is a very question of the term
>> 5:16
>> we can see in a strict sense if you mean it in the sense of a physical law nothing is necessarily an estimate I do
>> 5:24
>> think it is the by-product at present inevitable byproduct of the way in which
>> 5:32
>> technical progress actually has taken place in industrial society and this and
>> 5:40
>> and this this argument applies as well to societies that are organized and I more or less individualistic basis as
>> 5:47
>> well as those that are collectivistic aliy organized that is the same critique
>> 5:52
>> applies as well to the soviet union or to the countries in the Soviet bloc as it does to the United States you would
>> 5:58
>> you would argue that I would say it applies in the sense that similar tendencies oh I think observable there
>> 6:06
>> of course was vast differences based on the entirely different foundation and
>> 6:12
>> organization of the entire economy but in as much as the Soviet Union will very
>> 6:19
>> soon join the most advanced areas of industrial civilization I think the two
>> 6:25
>> systems will become more or less assimilated I think I think we want to make clear at this point because you do
>> 6:31
>> make it clear in your book that you do see differences between the Soviet Union and the United States differences
>> 6:37
>> and maybe you are a ground away where the obvious difference is that the
>> 6:42
>> society as I just mentioned is organized on an essentially different basis the
>> 6:49
>> collective ownership and control of the means of production regardless of whether or not you consider it as
>> 6:55
>> already socialist or not socialist at all is a sufficiently different form a
>> 7:02
>> society organized on the basis of private control and ownership of the means of production to make for decisive
>> 7:10
>> differences in the tendencies of development there is also if there is there not a difference in the legal
>> 7:17
>> basis of control by the state or is there nobody mid by legal basis well we
>> 7:24
>> are to some extent individuals and their own participation and their own ability to dissent are protected more in the
>> 7:33
>> American system than in the Soviet system they are certainly more protected
>> 7:39
>> they are even institutionalized as the American system they are not institutionalized in the Soviet system
>> 7:45
>> but precisely here I have my way I have a great fear that this
>> 7:52
>> institutionalization of civil rights and especially the right and Liberty to dissent is gradually eroded is reduced
>> 8:01
>> not much at all not by a conspiracy but simply by the
>> 8:06
>> mechanisms of technical goals within the
>> 8:13
>> framework of the established institutions which are before we get
>> 8:19
>> into a discussion of that particular area since we're attempting to define
>> 8:25
>> your use of totalitarian which I take it is quite different than say call Friedreich's use of the word oh yes I
>> 8:32
>> wanted to ask about the about the the
>> 8:37
>> applicability of the concept to the non advanced sectors of the world where
>> 8:44
>> particularly those countries that are now labeled socialist and are going into four extents planning and and use of many of the
>> 8:52
>> kinds of controls that you suggest exist in advanced industrial society Ghana Cuba Algeria for example the definition
>> 9:01
>> begin to apply in these countries as well on these areas that is one of the
>> 9:07
>> most difficult questions to raise and to answer on the one hand I would say and
>> 9:14
>> it may sound paradoxical although I don't think it is paradoxical that these
>> 9:19
>> countries precisely because they are not yet at the advanced stage of
>> 9:26
>> industrialization where they have to buy all the negative features of this kind
>> 9:34
>> of industrialization that these countries have a better chance of
>> 9:41
>> proceeding differently that these countries have a better chance of building form Scott a failure and a more
>> 9:50
>> human society but there are other impediments here namely that the vast
>> 9:59
>> majority of these countries is too weak in resources intellectual as well as
>> 10:06
>> material to do it by themselves they are by themselves as far as I can
>> 10:13
>> see again with some exceptions incapable of accumulating the funds capital funds
>> 10:21
>> that would be necessary for development and therefore will have to rely on
>> 10:26
>> outside help which can come only from the east or from the west and I am a
>> 10:33
>> friends of less this dependence on outside health would not almost
>> 10:38
>> inevitably these countries lead along the path that present gone either by the
>> 10:47
>> east or by serviced so that the idea of a third force is still a more or less a
>> 10:53
>> utopian idea one more question on in this general area the Isaac torture in
>> 11:02
>> his book the the great contest where he dealt with with issues of the Cold War
>> 11:09
>> which were not really central to this discussion suggested that the the
>> 11:15
>> potential the ultimate potential for freedom in the organization of the in in
>> 11:21
>> this sense of the totalitarian soviet society was far greater than existed in
>> 11:26
>> any area of the West because of the of the way in which the controls were applied and were used would you agree
>> 11:33
>> with this the formulation of mr. Deutsch is I agree up to a very definite point
>> 11:38
>> if Georgia wants to say that the establishment of a plant society it does
>> 11:46
>> not have to cope with the vested interests which otherwise stand in the
>> 11:53
>> way of a utilization of all available resources for the satisfaction of vital
>> 12:00
>> needs wherever they are still not satisfied rather than proceeding through wastes
>> 12:07
>> and planned obsolescence if he wants to say that I agree entirely there
>> 12:13
>> searching a centrally planned society in which the counteracting vested interest
>> 12:19
>> are indeed eliminated would have a far greater potential to develop humanity
>> 12:26
>> let's say in short then another society but here I think we have to place the
>> 12:32
>> development of Soviet society in the actual context of peaceful or rather
>> 12:38
>> hostile coexistence which means that the Soviet Union - at present sees itself
>> 12:45
>> committed to divert a vast section of its resources of the social wealth to
>> 12:52
>> armament production and thereby has to
>> 12:57
>> impose sacrifices which otherwise would not have to be imposed I think maybe it
>> 13:07
>> something we got to explore a little bit at this point is is it to go back to this question of the territory and the
>> 13:12
>> reason I come back to it I think is because it isn't the provocative word to be used in the context of modern American life one of
>> 13:21
>> the things you talk about in this regard is the range in the nature of choice available in this society and one should
>> 13:30
>> say I suppose in the first place that it seems that there is a great range of choice to some extent we have to all choose our political candidates and our
>> 13:37
>> pretty well our political leaders from a range of candidates we choose what the particular job you want to go to what
>> 13:43
>> education education we want to go to really choose a candidate or are they not chosen for us do i and you won't
>> 13:51
>> Weber it is choose a candidate which was actually or running order somebody else does a machine or I don't know what do
>> 13:58
>> it well there is a choice at least between different candidates with different points of view mr. Barry
>> 14:03
>> Goldwater has a different orientation I believed and then our president Johnson
>> 14:10
>> yes certainly are these real choices they are real choices wherever you have
>> 14:16
>> a real difference of opinion now I'm again God you early suspicious
>> 14:23
>> of the speeches and platforms and programs made before the elections they
>> 14:31
>> are usually hardly in any relation to what happened after the election if you
>> 14:36
>> have still a real difference of opinion I would say you indeed have a choice and
>> 14:42
>> you have freedom of choice but that is precisely what I start to doubt the mere
>> 14:48
>> fact is that we have two parties does not yet by itself mean that these
>> 14:54
>> parties differ in the accenture attitudes and opinions there may well be
>> 15:02
>> differences within one and the same accepted and established framework in
>> 15:08
>> which case both parties would compete in preserving the existing framework rather
>> 15:16
>> than working for alternatives if they are any alternatives one of the
>> 15:21
>> traditional areas of dissent aside from the political arena choice have been the academies and the
>> 15:27
>> distance of an intellectual community which at times historically has seen
>> 15:32
>> things differently than the current establishment of a society do you see in
>> 15:39
>> in the academies the existence of a real dissent and a real opposition of
>> 15:44
>> alternatives by academies you mean universities colleges and so on yes well
>> 15:53
>> I would say since this is precisely the field where I do have experience that is
>> 15:59
>> perhaps today the area which is still the freest of order my long experience
>> 16:07
>> with students has shown me that these students at least when they enter the
>> 16:13
>> university are still entirely open minded that they think by themselves
>> 16:20
>> that they preserve their open mind that they are highly critical and that's a
>> 16:28
>> really talk at least if they know that they can talk that depends on the with
>> 16:34
>> whom they talk gradually however the dire need makes itself first to look for
>> 16:42
>> a job they know perfectly well that if they go on like that if they continue to
>> 16:48
>> have really dissenting opinions and not only slight differences in opinion it
>> 16:53
>> may be very difficult for them to find a job and that sooner or later they have
>> 16:59
>> to adopt modes of behavior in which at least they conceal the dissent or
>> 17:07
>> express it in such a way that it does not cause a scandal and I certainly
>> 17:13
>> don't blame them for doing it but is this really is this really sufficient to explain a lack of this and
>> 17:19
>> there have been scholars and intellectuals who have been able to take a dissenting position in terms of
>> 17:24
>> publication and one thinks of individuals like Searight Mills and and in a much different sense and in a much
>> 17:30
>> more popular sense Vance Packard how would you account for the existence of these people and how would you account
>> 17:37
>> for the fact that there are not more likely I would not I say and I don't think I did say that
>> 17:44
>> we have no dissent and what I did say and what I mean and what I would like to
>> 17:50
>> repeat is we have a considerable amount of dissent we can afford this dissent
>> 17:58
>> because it remains completely and entirely in effective we can afford to
>> 18:07
>> have C right minutes we can afford to let Vance Packard say things which
>> 18:14
>> formally would have been very meticulously considered because our
>> 18:22
>> society is so strong so cohesive so a powerful that these revelations don't do
>> 18:31
>> it any harm and in a sense that is good but in another sense and perhaps and the
>> 18:38
>> deeper sentence is very bad John YES on the question I have two questions really
>> 18:44
>> but first I'd like to ask you about the particular phenomenon of Vance Packard uh he sells in the hundreds of thousands
>> 18:54
>> of copies and is in his widely read and
>> 18:59
>> and yet seems to have no real influence in the society it's the kind of thing
>> 19:04
>> that just slips off the surface that it makes perhaps a momentary impression and
>> 19:10
>> disappears and of course in the case of see right mills professor mills wrote a
>> 19:17
>> book club listen Yankee which sold over 400,000 copies and was read as I noticed
>> 19:22
>> by Subway's by secretaries writing on the subway and yet again made no
>> 19:27
>> impression the society seems not only confident to allow dissenters to exist
>> 19:34
>> but to allow them to be fairly widely disseminated in some cases what how
>> 19:41
>> would you want to comment on the phenomenon of the lack of impression of these people in the end the processes
>> 19:47
>> and devices by with which this is accomplished yes because I believe there's another in
>> 19:53
>> rushon which overrides and we consent in the last analysis destroys as the or
>> 20:01
>> mate it makes impotent as the impressions left as these books there is name is the
>> 20:07
>> impression that that never mind after our this society functions
>> 20:13
>> beautifully and efficiently it has succeeded in vastly increasing astonied
>> 20:21
>> of living in distributing its benefits over larger section of the former
>> 20:27
>> underprivileged population we still have these large areas of poverty but nothing
>> 20:36
>> proves that these areas cannot sooner or later also be taken care off
>> 20:42
>> so what these people reveal and indict are simply byproducts of the famous
>> 20:54
>> affluent society byproducts which are present we have to cope with but which
>> 21:00
>> are not really in any way serious and dangerous the the event in the in the
>> 21:07
>> recent past that seems most to bear this out it seems to me it was the
>> 21:13
>> assassination of the president where there existed at least the opportunity
>> 21:20
>> for an act and and the consequences of
>> 21:25
>> the active to have a deep impress on the American people and yet it was as if the
>> 21:31
>> the display of that for days was like another television rugged similar to
>> 21:37
>> show exact which we had after four days it was completely incorporated into the daily business of life there was a new
>> 21:44
>> president things are going on yes I'm well what I wanted to ask you was to
>> 21:50
>> perhaps comment a little bit more on the the the specific techniques and methods
>> 21:55
>> since the the mass communications industry plays such a large role in this
>> 22:01
>> whole process would you care to comment on that
>> 22:06
>> yes but again I don't want to make the impression that I consider the only
>> 22:13
>> thing as a conspiracy once a part of the media of mass communication we have a
>> 22:20
>> conspiratorial aspect they are to only a remind you of see a set of the frame of
>> 22:27
>> self-censorship which is exercised by the press by the movie industry whatever
>> 22:33
>> it is a self-censorship far more effective and far more efficient than
>> 22:38
>> any state instituted censor that is not the point I think that these are all
>> 22:46
>> these developments have a very rational basis namely precisely let our system
>> 22:56
>> works and because it works because it is so productive because it distributes
>> 23:04
>> such benefits we repress the pious which we pay for this affluence a world which
>> 23:12
>> by the way I would only use a in quotation marks it is this repression it is the repression of the price it cost
>> 23:19
>> the sacrifices that are involved which
>> 23:25
>> is actually that what bothers me most raises a question because thus far even
>> 23:31
>> speaking about such here again I use quotation marks intangibles in quotation
>> 23:37
>> marks is the range of choice available not being truly a meaningful choice and the social sciences and the academic
>> 23:45
>> institutions while tolerating some dissent nonetheless not really participating in the development and
>> 23:51
>> movement of the society what's wrong with the society as it now stands is there a need to change the society
>> 23:57
>> I mean don't after all we have haven't we if not if we haven't achieved utopia
>> 24:03
>> aren't we getting close to reaching utopia at least in terms of the production of material goods and
>> 24:09
>> physical comfort well that question leads to Z what I consider the calls or
>> 24:15
>> who at problem rods in a rather large cause of mine as
>> 24:21
>> universities a question it was a kind of examination question I asked the
>> 24:27
>> students I want to change I want you to tell me what is wrong was a society I never got an answer
>> 24:33
>> nobody could or nobody dare to tell me what is actually wrong with a society did the students want the course and
>> 24:39
>> knows I didn't because again I completely understand why they didn't is
>> 24:44
>> I want to tell me or didn't know what is wrong with it is an T I have to become a
>> 24:52
>> little philosophical and even a little utopian for me the world utopia makes no
>> 24:59
>> sense because in my view there's nothing today which could be a reason to be
>> 25:04
>> called utopia mankind has reached a stage where if it wanted to it could actually within a
>> 25:11
>> relatively short time translate into reality even the most utopian idea so
>> 25:18
>> the term utopia again is a subterfuge
>> 25:23
>> what as long as a society is that it retains that it perpetuates the struggle
>> 25:31
>> for existence tall frustration waste
>> 25:39
>> although all the intellectual and material capabilities are there to
>> 25:47
>> pacify this table before existence in the international arena as well as
>> 25:53
>> within the nation and force a private individual and by a pacification of the
>> 26:01
>> struggle for existence I mean something I think very concrete I expressed it in
>> 26:07
>> the phrase and I think your listener will listen as we know what I'm talking
>> 26:14
>> about the abolition of alienated labor we have reached a stage where industrial
>> 26:21
>> civilization really could reduce working time to such an extent that the
>> 26:28
>> traditional proportion between working time and free timelessly worst that free time becomes
>> 26:34
>> full time and working time marginal time this would involve a complete
>> 26:42
>> transvaluation of values it would cancel
>> 26:47
>> some of the most cherished abuse of the established organization for example the
>> 26:54
>> need for earning a living instead of making life and end in itself and not a
>> 27:01
>> means to attain an end which is either never attained or only in an age where
>> 27:06
>> you cannot enjoy it anymore this I think today is the alternative and this art relative is systematically
>> 27:14
>> again not in terms of a conspiracy about objectively prevented by the way in
>> 27:23
>> which we continue as he established direction of progress well there are two
>> 27:28
>> points there and it would be fair to rephrase the first part of that to say in a kind of shorthand sense that while
>> 27:36
>> we have the possibility of living within a society of Plenty the society is still organized as if it were a society of
>> 27:43
>> scarcity no for one very simple reason
>> 27:49
>> you don't need plenty in order to have a humane society I would even go so far
>> 27:57
>> and there again you will have to protect me I would even be a good so far as to
>> 28:03
>> say that one of the crimes of our present area you are is that we have too
>> 28:10
>> much there in a situation where the vast majority of the people of the earth have
>> 28:16
>> to litter so it is not a question of Plenty well let me change to other than the comparison between enough we had the
>> 28:23
>> potential of developing a society based on enough and we're still living as a society based on scarcity that's correct
>> 28:31
>> now the second part of that the second part of what you just said can I interrupt you I'm a question of enough
>> 28:38
>> and scarcity isn't it also true that
>> 28:44
>> that the the concept of scarcity doesn't apply because the the need to waste is
>> 28:52
>> so paramount injustice society certainly the need to waste as paramount as a need
>> 28:58
>> to waste is absolutely essential because it is a need for waste which in turn
>> 29:06
>> perpetuates the need for earning a living the need for growth for doing
>> 29:12
>> work which in fact technically is already superfluous can we make you into
>> 29:19
>> a bit of a visionary and ask you to discuss what the nature of a society that where the concepts of work and
>> 29:26
>> leisure breakdown will be like or what you would expect you cannot because we
>> 29:34
>> are at present I think utterly incapable to draft anything like a blueprint for
>> 29:41
>> such a society it is so easily ridiculed
>> 29:49
>> because we always assume that the individuals si have been preconditioned
>> 29:56
>> si are now will suddenly be placed in a situation in which as they don't have to
>> 30:02
>> work for a living anymore in which they don't have to earn a living anymore in which most of their time as free time
>> 30:10
>> and it is then very easy to say and I agree that would be a catastrophe and a detail perhaps the greatest catastrophe
>> 30:17
>> of the civilization it would be complete chaos it would be a nightmare there we
>> 30:23
>> cannot and risen envision such a society because it was so radically different
>> 30:28
>> from what we have now that any such vision would really be innovative
>> 30:34
>> responsible well let me try this comment then that we have the potential of
>> 30:39
>> developing however it might be organized and set up something approaching what has traditionally been considered a
>> 30:46
>> utopian kind of existence yes now then
>> 30:51
>> you then go on in the second part of your earlier statement to say that you see the society however
>> 30:57
>> moving and with tendencies which not only are not leading toward the establishment or existence of this kind
>> 31:03
>> of society but are actually leading in the other direction and this is what I wanted to to question you on because
>> 31:09
>> hadn't had always been true that the technological abilities of society have
>> 31:14
>> been ahead of the social abilities of the society to use utilize these techniques isn't this simply a question
>> 31:22
>> of cultural lag why isn't it that we aren't in fact slowly evolving a
>> 31:28
>> framework whereby we can use these technological developments to create a healthy human society because in my view
>> 31:36
>> it is not simply a time lag or a cultural lag in any other sense the
>> 31:44
>> decisive difference here is that what is in worth is not simply a better
>> 31:51
>> utilization and a better development of the available technical resources but
>> 31:58
>> what I called a radical redirection of technical progress itself and such a
>> 32:05
>> radical redirection of technical progress namely first to the satisfaction of vital needs and to a
>> 32:12
>> pacification such a radical redirection is in my view not possible within the
>> 32:21
>> established framework but would involve a sweeping change in our institutions
>> 32:29
>> which we're still institutions adopted to scarcity and not to what we
>> 32:37
>> potentially have now why can't this change be made let me let me also quote
>> 32:44
>> at this point something from your introduction that may or may not throw a light on on what I'm getting at you said
>> 32:50
>> here that the way in which is assigned he organizes the life of its members involves an initial choice between
>> 32:57
>> historical alternatives which are determined by the inherited level of the material and intellectual culture the
>> 33:03
>> choice itself results from the play of the dominant interests it anticipates
>> 33:08
>> specific modes transforming and utilized man in nature and rejects other modes etc the word I was I was looking at
>> 33:15
>> there with the word choice if I would not believe that such a redirection is
>> 33:22
>> historically possible I wouldn't have written my book as far as it choices
>> 33:27
>> concerned there indeed I am very pessimistic because the choice would
>> 33:35
>> require among other things men who live
>> 33:41
>> in the dire need for such a change this dire need is as I pointed out today
>> 33:49
>> effectively repressed it would furthermore require that these people
>> 33:56
>> who live in need of such a change actually have the power to bring the
>> 34:01
>> change about this to at present is not the case
>> 34:07
>> does anybody map it from this society as it's currently set up yes most certainly
>> 34:12
>> I think if not the majority at least a large segment of the population benefit
>> 34:19
>> for it and that is precisely why it is so serious a wider so pain for you that
>> 34:24
>> you criticize a society but I believe that Wars at stake than these benefits
>> 34:32
>> where to use a cliche or though I hate it I seriously believe that the chances
>> 34:40
>> of a human and humane existence for all without war the are at stake and in view
>> 34:48
>> of these chances I think one has to criticize even a society which is more
>> 34:54
>> beneficial to more people perhaps and any preceding society in history but in
>> 35:01
>> a sense it also it also doesn't it although it may benefit some members more than others it also does well it
>> 35:13
>> also wraps up those who benefit to some extent and and doesn't allow for their own full full development as human
>> 35:20
>> beings and I think this is what you meant when you spoke at one point the world to become the staff of total administration which absorbs even the
>> 35:26
>> administrators yes it absorbs not only the administrators it suffocates not
>> 35:34
>> only the need for a redirection of progress but it even does a best to
>> 35:41
>> arrest as a development of concepts and modes of thoughts which could define
>> 35:49
>> good sketch alternatives of the development not only a quantitative the
>> 35:56
>> changes but qualitative changes that is why I have the critique of present a
>> 36:02
>> positivism and a criticism which I consider a pseudoaneurysm a false and
>> 36:10
>> premise ism because it Orient's itself on a restricted and manipulated
>> 36:16
>> experience I just want to push you in this on a second and then on John I know has a question previously it might be
>> 36:25
>> said that a society that benefitted certain groups in the society rather than others had to be maintained in the
>> 36:31
>> eyes of those who benefited because it was simply impossible technologically for the group that benefited to maintain
>> 36:38
>> its particular benefits in an equalitarian totally equalitarian system
>> 36:45
>> but now we have a society where that is no longer impossible where in fact those who benefit need not give up very much
>> 36:51
>> in order to share their benefits with the others in the society through the advent of automation cybernetics and
>> 36:58
>> these techniques also in the current situation isn't it true that those who
>> 37:04
>> benefit could benefit more in a different social situation why then isn't it possible that traditional
>> 37:12
>> leadership groups themselves could at this point under these conditions make the transition to a different kind of
>> 37:17
>> society because it would be as far as I draw the first case of their story in
>> 37:23
>> which a invested and intentionally darshan or a ruling class if you wish
>> 37:30
>> has voluntarily abdicated the chances that the
>> 37:36
>> a not benefit the way they benefit now the risk of serious disruptions and even
>> 37:45
>> of a catastrophe and Worf is such that they will understandably not be willing
>> 37:53
>> to voluntarily to institute so exchanges
>> 38:00
>> direct from in the same society I think argues that they're um are are certain
>> 38:07
>> strong reasons why those who even those involved in leadership do not benefit as greatly into society as they could from
>> 38:14
>> a different kind of society couldn't this act is a sufficient stimulation to Lana where leadership tonight a
>> 38:20
>> transition there no as far as I remember Indian spy that simply well for example
>> 38:28
>> that the rich are not happy now in the first place I never took that very
>> 38:34
>> seriously and I don't believe that the unhappiness or so it should really be a
>> 38:41
>> matter of serious concern and in the second place I don't think you can
>> 38:46
>> interpret this reluctance primarily in Psychological terms what is involved
>> 38:52
>> after all is a deed to speak perfectly frankly a fundamental change and as he
>> 38:58
>> established political and economic institutions has already indicated for
>> 39:04
>> example a plant economy really plant economy with priority set on the
>> 39:10
>> satisfaction of needs is not compatible
>> 39:15
>> with the present private control of the economy with these individual one final
>> 39:22
>> question on this point with these with this leadership be giving up much more than simply a question of status and
>> 39:28
>> leadership would they be giving up any material conditions of livelihood again
>> 39:36
>> looking back at history it is at least possible or probable that they would
>> 39:45
>> indeed have to give up much of what they have now that others would move in we want to do
>> 39:52
>> it in a different way that I would indeed say John yes you describe an a
>> 40:00
>> contradiction or an antagonism between the need for change and I assume this is
>> 40:07
>> a kind of objective need that exists without the wishes or rub or feelings of
>> 40:13
>> of anyone and the repression of the expression of the need for this change
>> 40:18
>> now do you foresee in any in any sense
>> 40:25
>> perhaps even in the classical Marcion sense a breakdown based on this kind of
>> 40:30
>> contradiction in the system that will force some kind of change perhaps not
>> 40:35
>> the one that we want or the one that you foresee the possibilities of such a
>> 40:42
>> breakdown are such that I think that
>> 40:48
>> yields a most rabid Marxist would wish them for example I could imagine that a
>> 40:55
>> nuclear war or even a short of in declare war a large-scale international
>> 41:02
>> war would release the forces that may
>> 41:08
>> make for such a redirection of progress but who's insane enough to wish that you
>> 41:16
>> don't see it see such a breakdown stemming from less cataclysmic factors
>> 41:24
>> like stagnation within the economy or some kind of breakdown in the in the
>> 41:29
>> arrangement and organization of our social and sexual mores for example
>> 41:35
>> there's a group in among writers for example Norman Mailer
>> 41:42
>> in particular who talks about the sexual revolution these factors have any
>> 41:49
>> significance to your way of thinking could we expand sexual other kind of a whole moral Christ yes well that's what
>> 41:54
>> I think there is more lovely disasters and almost cubital applications of the
>> 42:02
>> term evolution we have in our evolution of the coca-cola company brings out the bottle it is a revolution and bottling
>> 42:09
>> we have a revolution in the order and whoever a loom evolution and everything only we don't have a revolution rather
>> 42:17
>> the only field in which the term revolution makes any sense I don't see a sexual revolution at all
>> 42:23
>> on the contrary as I try to point out in my book I see a very nice very welcome
>> 42:30
>> and very as pleasurable and pleasant adaptation of sexual mores to the
>> 42:37
>> requirements of the affluent society which simply cannot do any more with a
>> 42:43
>> Victorian morality that has nothing to do with an evolution took to follow up
>> 42:50
>> on that the this very pleasant
>> 42:58
>> development than our sexual and social mores that you talk about seems to
>> 43:04
>> develop somewhat in opposition to the to the non terroristic totalitarian izing
>> 43:12
>> of a society yes well no I doubt even let doubt even let because the more
>> 43:19
>> sexual freedom people have within the established within the establishment and
>> 43:28
>> without being punished by the establishment the easier they are to
>> 43:33
>> guide the easier they are to manipulate now please don't misunderstand me I will
>> 43:38
>> be the last to condemn this liberation and sexual morality let me ask you a
>> 43:45
>> question historically uh maybe you can answer you don't want to or can't answer this but and this I thought of this one John
>> 43:53
>> brought up the question of the web llama use of a revolution that changes in our
>> 43:58
>> sexual mores in addition we find certain tendencies taking place in art and
>> 44:04
>> literature and also in the use of drugs which seem possibly to be interrelated
>> 44:09
>> here there's been a great deal of talk about another revolution the the drug
>> 44:15
>> revolution the use of consciousness expanding drugs were with mr. Timothy
>> 44:20
>> Leary and if if International Federation for internal freedom and similarly
>> 44:26
>> artists in perhaps analogous Y and in Abstract Expressionism in tendencies
>> 44:32
>> like this have have developed an art form which becomes at least to me so solipsistic that it almost ceases to
>> 44:38
>> have any relevance other than for oneself are there historical parallels
>> 44:43
>> and these kinds of developments and other social tendencies and developments and when one here is a great deal I I
>> 44:50
>> was thinking of the decline of the Roman Empire for example as being a time of libertine ism and a concern with extreme
>> 45:01
>> individuality the period following the French Revolution yes rather period following the French Revolution the
>> 45:08
>> period of Sydney liked was slightly different because there did you at a considerable degree of genuine freedom
>> 45:16
>> in these things provided you belong to deter a nest away the others didn't have it and never did have it as far as it
>> 45:24
>> dogs are concerned this is very close to my heart because again unfortunately in the universities you know we are very
>> 45:32
>> much concerned with it in this respect I'm a terrible reactionary as in many
>> 45:38
>> other aspects I think that Doc's are reprehensible and that the only case in
>> 45:45
>> which they are to be welcomed is in case of pain of insufferable physical pain in
>> 45:53
>> all other cases they cannot possibly do what these people pretend as they do
>> 46:01
>> especially not an art literature development of consciousness or these if
>> 46:07
>> any singer acts of human freedom and if they are not the development at
>> 46:13
>> attainment of human freedom they will invariably a compressor opposite over
>> 46:18
>> they are supposed to be air to accomplish namely some kind of illusionary a happiness illusory
>> 46:25
>> contentment illusory experience which again may very well become a vehicle of
>> 46:31
>> adjustment rather than the opposite but isn't the ability in a certain sense to to take drugs which can expand your
>> 46:38
>> personal individual consciousness to their greatest extent if in fact this is what they do or to work in art forms
>> 46:45
>> which which expands one one's own feelings and emotions to the utmost
>> 46:50
>> isn't this really a kind of liberation and freedom which is unparalleled in
>> 46:56
>> history well maybe it is a revelation form things for which you shouldn't be liberated because they are precisely the
>> 47:03
>> very essence of the present state of affairs and if you liberate yourself artificially form it what you actually
>> 47:10
>> do is not develop your consciousness but arrest your consciousness in other words
>> 47:15
>> this isn't so much a freedom to as a freedom from exactly you talk to the
>> 47:21
>> misuse of the term revolution would you apply the the same approbation to the
>> 47:30
>> use of the term in in the context of the civil rights movement the Negro
>> 47:35
>> revolution as well do you see this in other words as a as a sign as a factor
>> 47:45
>> for change in the Society of a significant sword feet before you mention that I let me just point out but
>> 47:51
>> I think what possibly were working toward is some is is to see whether or not there are areas in which or forces
>> 47:58
>> within the society which offer an opportunity for social change of some kind am I wrong John no yeah that's
>> 48:03
>> right yes it is certainly this movement certainly is a movement towards social
>> 48:10
>> change I would not call it a revolution because
>> 48:15
>> I personally cannot understand how you can call a revolution a movement which
>> 48:23
>> tries to implement the principles of the Declaration of Independence I mean as a
>> 48:30
>> mere fact that we have to have such a movement today almost 200 years after
>> 48:37
>> the Declaration of Independence I think characterizes our society sufficiently
>> 48:43
>> it is not a revolution it will see a effort to finally to translate into
>> 48:52
>> reality and what was promised a centuries ago the promise was which
>> 48:58
>> actually modern society began and which is still not translated into reality
>> 49:04
>> see right mills dealt with two other groups within the society namely the
>> 49:09
>> labor movement and the intellectuals would you apply the same criticism to
>> 49:15
>> both of these groups you want to deal with them in turn I did not apply any criticism as far as I remember to the
>> 49:22
>> civil rights movement into the Negro movement as far as far as a lady I
>> 49:27
>> didn't mean criticism had sense but an estimate of every yes as far as labor
>> 49:34
>> movement is concerned or I can say is that at present organized labor in the
>> 49:41
>> United States and not only in the United States has nothing to do anymore of this
>> 49:46
>> and what Marx wants court as a polity reott and the develop a consciousness
>> 49:54
>> and see revolutionary potential off as apologia
>> 49:59
>> organized labor has today become one of the countervailing powers their
>> 50:05
>> cooperating wizards counter countervailing power in the strengthening and improvement of the
>> 50:12
>> powers that be again I certainly do not
>> 50:18
>> say that in any way as a kind of accusation or indictment only in order
>> 50:23
>> to characterize as the difference between the present state of affairs and the julep to 19th
>> 50:31
>> century and in this country the turkeys would a class analysis of the society
>> 50:39
>> still have any meaning given the the widespread affluence and the repression
>> 50:46
>> of any significant consciousness of problems within the society I can't help
>> 50:54
>> it but I do believe that we still have a class Society a class Society is not
>> 51:00
>> characterized by the increasing higher standard of living of the wid classes
>> 51:06
>> what is characterized today most outspokenly characterized by the fact
>> 51:13
>> that we have one group or class which by
>> 51:19
>> virtue of its position in the social and economic process decides and determines
>> 51:27
>> the fate of the entire population and that the majority of the population
>> 51:33
>> again by virtue of they are positioned in the social and economic process is
>> 51:41
>> really not in any way self determinating
>> 51:46
>> in speaking of classes let me only first bring up something else when you speak of of social change and how it takes
>> 51:52
>> place and I'll quote here you say first which we've already said the choice is
>> 51:58
>> primarily but only primarily the privilege of those groups which have attained control over the productive
>> 52:03
>> processes their control projects the way of life for the whole and the ensuing and enslaving necessity is the result of
>> 52:10
>> their freedom then you say and the possible abolition of this necessity pens on a new ingression of freedom not
>> 52:16
>> any freedom but that of men who comprehend the given necessity as insufferable pain and as unnecessary so
>> 52:23
>> that here you set up with your criteria of social change a group which is I
>> 52:29
>> would say from this almost totally excluded from benefit to the society and you make this clear as you said earlier
>> 52:35
>> in terms of labor movement and you also make it clear when you speak of of the people in general and their ability to
>> 52:41
>> change the situation where you argue that in the redistribution of wealth and
>> 52:47
>> equalization of classes there is simply a new stratification characteristic of advanced industrial society and not any
>> 52:53
>> basic chance to change that method of stratification and ratification but then
>> 53:00
>> you close your book and this is only the last half page out of 257 it's true when
>> 53:06
>> you say however underneath the conservative popular base is the substratum of the outcasts and Outsiders
>> 53:13
>> the exploited and persecuted of other races and colors the unemployed and unemployable they exist outside the
>> 53:19
>> democratic process they're their life
>> 53:26
>> their life is the most immediate in the most real need for ending intolerable conditions and institutions thus their
>> 53:32
>> opposition is revolutionary even if their consciousness is not the fact that they start refusing to play the game
>> 53:38
>> maybe the fact which marks the beginning of the end of the period now is the fact
>> 53:44
>> that you spend only a half-page in this in any a sense characteristic of your evaluation of the possibility of this
>> 53:49
>> tendency only partly characteristic the other part is that as I say only the
>> 53:56
>> beginnings that may mark easy beginnings these group still are too powerless to
>> 54:04
>> accomplish a change by themselves what I would like to add here that if I speak
>> 54:11
>> of the ingestion of a new freedom motivated by the awareness of
>> 54:18
>> intolerable the conditions that does not necessarily and exclusively me and
>> 54:24
>> abject poverty and misery I for example
>> 54:29
>> can very well envisage conditions under which the social groups which are not
>> 54:37
>> prefer which are not a little in a live which do not live in misery become aware
>> 54:42
>> of the insanity of a society in which
>> 54:47
>> they have to continue in which their to continue alienated
>> 54:52
>> labor continual performances which they actually hate continue the struggle for
>> 55:01
>> existence which has become more and more a trace in the face of as impossible
>> 55:09
>> abolition of loyalties and that this awareness may well spread and become one
>> 55:15
>> of those potentially changing forces there currently are a number of programs
>> 55:20
>> taking place throughout the country and of course the one that have gotten the most press recently of the Appalachians for Appalachia but also here in New York
>> 55:28
>> City and elsewhere in Oakland California there have been a number of programs in which an enormous amount of money is
>> 55:34
>> being spent in extremely small locations and an attempt to take this particular group of the population and somehow
>> 55:40
>> integrate them into the society and I'm thinking of a project like the one going on in Harlem which is going to in which
>> 55:46
>> eighty million dollars is going to be invested or one on the Lower East Side which I believe has been allocated 120
>> 55:51
>> million dollars and as I understand it much of this money has come from extremely sophisticated extremely
>> 55:57
>> sophisticated area of the leadership of the nation do you think that these kinds
>> 56:02
>> of programs or any kind of program will be able to reduce the number of those who are unemployed and unemployable in
>> 56:09
>> other words which way do you see this tendency going do you see this this potentially revolutionary group increasing report or decreasing that is
>> 56:19
>> very hard to say because it depends entirely on the national and
>> 56:24
>> international situation as to the project you mentioned naturally any and
>> 56:30
>> every project that produces even in a small area misery and poverty and dirt
>> 56:38
>> is good and should be supported but
>> 56:43
>> without illusions that they do not have the key for the decisive change and it
>> 56:51
>> seems to be a clear because this is not a local Messiah but a fire that not only
>> 56:58
>> concerns the nation as a whole about a soup national core to John normal well let me
>> 57:06
>> ask one final question what do you see and I think in a sense you've answered this what do you see the role of of
>> 57:12
>> scholars and intellectuals to be given this particular state of society where
>> 57:19
>> there doesn't seem to be at least if your analysis is correct much concrete action that can be done at this point
>> 57:26
>> and indeed I'd say your analysis is a rather pessimistic one yes it is a
>> 57:31
>> pessimistic one and precisely in this situation as the intellectual the scholar perhaps has a more responsible
>> 57:40
>> or than he ever had before because it is his task today against all a apparent or
>> 57:49
>> real success to preserve or rather to
>> 57:56
>> develop those concepts those ideas those
>> 58:01
>> aspirations which do not succumb to the oil or the seeming benefits of any
>> 58:10
>> presence aasaiya t but which concepts and modes of thought which remain loyal
>> 58:17
>> to the essentially o it hopes and aspirations of mankind for a society in
>> 58:25
>> which as a struggle for existence as a deed pacified this is today and more
>> 58:31
>> than ever before a real possibility and the entire power and the entire wealth
>> 58:37
>> of our society is at present directed against this possibility precisely
>> 58:44
>> because it is over here so in this situation discolor and the intellectual has one of the most decisive tasks thank
>> 58:53
>> you very much we've been talking to dr. Herbert mark who's a professor of philosophy at Brandeis University and
>> 58:58
>> author of a recent for one-dimensional man published by beacon press and John Fannin an editor of a New York
>> 59:05
>> publishing house
>>
>>
>> *****************************************
> thanks GZ

On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 7:55:15 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> Jordy C wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 4:41:34 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> >> Jordy C. wrote:
> >> >
> >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gyL5ie6-x0
> >>
> >> Quite of ionterest, I am reading the transcript as of now...
> >>
> >> **********************************
> >>
> >> Transcript
> >>
> >>
> >> 0:00
> >> sitting with me as dr. Herbert minutiae a professor of politics and philosophy at Brandeis University and the author of
> >> 0:07
> >> the recent book entitled one-dimensional man published by beacon press and also John Simon who's an editor of New York
> >> 0:13
> >> publishing house and we're going to be discussing dr. marcoh whose book one-dimensional man and this is a book
> >> 0:20
> >> as I understand it which is about the United States and its general thesis is
> >> 0:25
> >> that in certain significant ways we have reached situation or are reaching a
> >> 0:30
> >> situation with it which is extremely close to a totalitarian society and I
> >> 0:37
> >> think we'll begin by discussing what precisely we mean by this and I want to quote from dr. Marcus's book you're
> >> 0:44
> >> right by virtue of the way in his organized his technological base contemporary industrial society tends to
> >> 0:51
> >> be totalitarian for totalitarian is not only a terroristic political coordination of society but also a non
> >> 0:58
> >> terroristic economic technical coordination which operates through the manipulation of needs by vested
> >> 1:05
> >> interests it does precludes the emergence of an effective opposition against the whole not only the specific
> >> 1:12
> >> form of government or party rule makes for totalitarianism but also a specific
> >> 1:17
> >> system of production and distribution which may well be compatible with a pluralism of parties newspapers
> >> 1:23
> >> countervailing powers etc and I wonder if you'd begin by telling us precisely
> >> 1:28
> >> what you mean in this sense by totalitarian yes may I begin by a
> >> 1:34
> >> qualifying a little what you said I wish only my book total of dear we see a
> >> 1:39
> >> United States a deal esse quotation shows with certain tendencies not more
> >> 1:47
> >> certain tendencies which I think are observable in the most advanced areas of
> >> 1:55
> >> industrial civilization the most advanced area of industrial civilization
> >> 2:01
> >> of course is the United States today but even in the United States the tendencies
> >> 2:07
> >> to which I point are prevailing if they
> >> 2:12
> >> are prevailing at or not simply beginning to show themselves only in certain advanced
> >> 2:20
> >> areas meaning as is very known that are still vast regions of under development
> >> 2:26
> >> of poverty even in the United States now by a totalitarian I used the term fully
> >> 2:34
> >> aware that this might violate certain taboos we are used to apply the term
> >> 2:42
> >> totalitarian only to well first the fascist and Nazi society then the
> >> 2:49
> >> communist society that is to say we are used to apply the term totalitarian to
> >> 2:55
> >> societies under more or less terroristic dictatorship with a one-party system
> >> 3:02
> >> with the more or less terroristic elimination of all opposition I believe
> >> 3:10
> >> that such a confined restricted use of the term totalitarian is itself
> >> 3:16
> >> ideological because it may serve to cover up the fact at least in my opinion
> >> 3:23
> >> a fact where totalitarian tendencies are beginning to show even in societies
> >> 3:31
> >> which are still democratic which preserves in democratic poses and institutions which have several parties
> >> 3:39
> >> which may even have countervailing forces by totalitarian I mean the
> >> 3:49
> >> constellation of situation enrich the private as well as public existence of
> >> 3:57
> >> man of the individual is controlled is
> >> 4:04
> >> exposed to standardised required ways of
> >> 4:11
> >> behavior standardized imposed values standardized imposed needs this can be
> >> 4:19
> >> done by a private as well as by a public you're cutting it can be done why are
> >> 4:25
> >> the correctly Democratic Media of mass communication and so on it is in a way a
> >> 4:33
> >> consequence as a quote source of technical formulas which implies mass
> >> 4:40
> >> production and mass distribution mass production and mass distribution in turn
> >> 4:46
> >> require a considerable degree of standardization a considerable degree of
> >> 4:52
> >> submission of the individual to pre given and superimposed values ideas
> >> 5:01
> >> aspirations goers and so on is this a necessary condition of this particular productive capacity and system
> >> 5:09
> >> well the tale of necessary apply to history is a very question of the term
> >> 5:16
> >> we can see in a strict sense if you mean it in the sense of a physical law nothing is necessarily an estimate I do
> >> 5:24
> >> think it is the by-product at present inevitable byproduct of the way in which
> >> 5:32
> >> technical progress actually has taken place in industrial society and this and
> >> 5:40
> >> and this this argument applies as well to societies that are organized and I more or less individualistic basis as
> >> 5:47
> >> well as those that are collectivistic aliy organized that is the same critique
> >> 5:52
> >> applies as well to the soviet union or to the countries in the Soviet bloc as it does to the United States you would
> >> 5:58
> >> you would argue that I would say it applies in the sense that similar tendencies oh I think observable there
> >> 6:06
> >> of course was vast differences based on the entirely different foundation and
> >> 6:12
> >> organization of the entire economy but in as much as the Soviet Union will very
> >> 6:19
> >> soon join the most advanced areas of industrial civilization I think the two
> >> 6:25
> >> systems will become more or less assimilated I think I think we want to make clear at this point because you do
> >> 6:31
> >> make it clear in your book that you do see differences between the Soviet Union and the United States differences
> >> 6:37
> >> and maybe you are a ground away where the obvious difference is that the
> >> 6:42
> >> society as I just mentioned is organized on an essentially different basis the
> >> 6:49
> >> collective ownership and control of the means of production regardless of whether or not you consider it as
> >> 6:55
> >> already socialist or not socialist at all is a sufficiently different form a
> >> 7:02
> >> society organized on the basis of private control and ownership of the means of production to make for decisive
> >> 7:10
> >> differences in the tendencies of development there is also if there is there not a difference in the legal
> >> 7:17
> >> basis of control by the state or is there nobody mid by legal basis well we
> >> 7:24
> >> are to some extent individuals and their own participation and their own ability to dissent are protected more in the
> >> 7:33
> >> American system than in the Soviet system they are certainly more protected
> >> 7:39
> >> they are even institutionalized as the American system they are not institutionalized in the Soviet system
> >> 7:45
> >> but precisely here I have my way I have a great fear that this
> >> 7:52
> >> institutionalization of civil rights and especially the right and Liberty to dissent is gradually eroded is reduced
> >> 8:01
> >> not much at all not by a conspiracy but simply by the
> >> 8:06
> >> mechanisms of technical goals within the
> >> 8:13
> >> framework of the established institutions which are before we get
> >> 8:19
> >> into a discussion of that particular area since we're attempting to define
> >> 8:25
> >> your use of totalitarian which I take it is quite different than say call Friedreich's use of the word oh yes I
> >> 8:32
> >> wanted to ask about the about the the
> >> 8:37
> >> applicability of the concept to the non advanced sectors of the world where
> >> 8:44
> >> particularly those countries that are now labeled socialist and are going into four extents planning and and use of many of the
> >> 8:52
> >> kinds of controls that you suggest exist in advanced industrial society Ghana Cuba Algeria for example the definition
> >> 9:01
> >> begin to apply in these countries as well on these areas that is one of the
> >> 9:07
> >> most difficult questions to raise and to answer on the one hand I would say and
> >> 9:14
> >> it may sound paradoxical although I don't think it is paradoxical that these
> >> 9:19
> >> countries precisely because they are not yet at the advanced stage of
> >> 9:26
> >> industrialization where they have to buy all the negative features of this kind
> >> 9:34
> >> of industrialization that these countries have a better chance of
> >> 9:41
> >> proceeding differently that these countries have a better chance of building form Scott a failure and a more
> >> 9:50
> >> human society but there are other impediments here namely that the vast
> >> 9:59
> >> majority of these countries is too weak in resources intellectual as well as
> >> 10:06
> >> material to do it by themselves they are by themselves as far as I can
> >> 10:13
> >> see again with some exceptions incapable of accumulating the funds capital funds
> >> 10:21
> >> that would be necessary for development and therefore will have to rely on
> >> 10:26
> >> outside help which can come only from the east or from the west and I am a
> >> 10:33
> >> friends of less this dependence on outside health would not almost
> >> 10:38
> >> inevitably these countries lead along the path that present gone either by the
> >> 10:47
> >> east or by serviced so that the idea of a third force is still a more or less a
> >> 10:53
> >> utopian idea one more question on in this general area the Isaac torture in
> >> 11:02
> >> his book the the great contest where he dealt with with issues of the Cold War
> >> 11:09
> >> which were not really central to this discussion suggested that the the
> >> 11:15
> >> potential the ultimate potential for freedom in the organization of the in in
> >> 11:21
> >> this sense of the totalitarian soviet society was far greater than existed in
> >> 11:26
> >> any area of the West because of the of the way in which the controls were applied and were used would you agree
> >> 11:33
> >> with this the formulation of mr. Deutsch is I agree up to a very definite point
> >> 11:38
> >> if Georgia wants to say that the establishment of a plant society it does
> >> 11:46
> >> not have to cope with the vested interests which otherwise stand in the
> >> 11:53
> >> way of a utilization of all available resources for the satisfaction of vital
> >> 12:00
> >> needs wherever they are still not satisfied rather than proceeding through wastes
> >> 12:07
> >> and planned obsolescence if he wants to say that I agree entirely there
> >> 12:13
> >> searching a centrally planned society in which the counteracting vested interest
> >> 12:19
> >> are indeed eliminated would have a far greater potential to develop humanity
> >> 12:26
> >> let's say in short then another society but here I think we have to place the
> >> 12:32
> >> development of Soviet society in the actual context of peaceful or rather
> >> 12:38
> >> hostile coexistence which means that the Soviet Union - at present sees itself
> >> 12:45
> >> committed to divert a vast section of its resources of the social wealth to
> >> 12:52
> >> armament production and thereby has to
> >> 12:57
> >> impose sacrifices which otherwise would not have to be imposed I think maybe it
> >> 13:07
> >> something we got to explore a little bit at this point is is it to go back to this question of the territory and the
> >> 13:12
> >> reason I come back to it I think is because it isn't the provocative word to be used in the context of modern American life one of
> >> 13:21
> >> the things you talk about in this regard is the range in the nature of choice available in this society and one should
> >> 13:30
> >> say I suppose in the first place that it seems that there is a great range of choice to some extent we have to all choose our political candidates and our
> >> 13:37
> >> pretty well our political leaders from a range of candidates we choose what the particular job you want to go to what
> >> 13:43
> >> education education we want to go to really choose a candidate or are they not chosen for us do i and you won't
> >> 13:51
> >> Weber it is choose a candidate which was actually or running order somebody else does a machine or I don't know what do
> >> 13:58
> >> it well there is a choice at least between different candidates with different points of view mr. Barry
> >> 14:03
> >> Goldwater has a different orientation I believed and then our president Johnson
> >> 14:10
> >> yes certainly are these real choices they are real choices wherever you have
> >> 14:16
> >> a real difference of opinion now I'm again God you early suspicious
> >> 14:23
> >> of the speeches and platforms and programs made before the elections they
> >> 14:31
> >> are usually hardly in any relation to what happened after the election if you
> >> 14:36
> >> have still a real difference of opinion I would say you indeed have a choice and
> >> 14:42
> >> you have freedom of choice but that is precisely what I start to doubt the mere
> >> 14:48
> >> fact is that we have two parties does not yet by itself mean that these
> >> 14:54
> >> parties differ in the accenture attitudes and opinions there may well be
> >> 15:02
> >> differences within one and the same accepted and established framework in
> >> 15:08
> >> which case both parties would compete in preserving the existing framework rather
> >> 15:16
> >> than working for alternatives if they are any alternatives one of the
> >> 15:21
> >> traditional areas of dissent aside from the political arena choice have been the academies and the
> >> 15:27
> >> distance of an intellectual community which at times historically has seen
> >> 15:32
> >> things differently than the current establishment of a society do you see in
> >> 15:39
> >> in the academies the existence of a real dissent and a real opposition of
> >> 15:44
> >> alternatives by academies you mean universities colleges and so on yes well
> >> 15:53
> >> I would say since this is precisely the field where I do have experience that is
> >> 15:59
> >> perhaps today the area which is still the freest of order my long experience
> >> 16:07
> >> with students has shown me that these students at least when they enter the
> >> 16:13
> >> university are still entirely open minded that they think by themselves
> >> 16:20
> >> that they preserve their open mind that they are highly critical and that's a
> >> 16:28
> >> really talk at least if they know that they can talk that depends on the with
> >> 16:34
> >> whom they talk gradually however the dire need makes itself first to look for
> >> 16:42
> >> a job they know perfectly well that if they go on like that if they continue to
> >> 16:48
> >> have really dissenting opinions and not only slight differences in opinion it
> >> 16:53
> >> may be very difficult for them to find a job and that sooner or later they have
> >> 16:59
> >> to adopt modes of behavior in which at least they conceal the dissent or
> >> 17:07
> >> express it in such a way that it does not cause a scandal and I certainly
> >> 17:13
> >> don't blame them for doing it but is this really is this really sufficient to explain a lack of this and
> >> 17:19
> >> there have been scholars and intellectuals who have been able to take a dissenting position in terms of
> >> 17:24
> >> publication and one thinks of individuals like Searight Mills and and in a much different sense and in a much
> >> 17:30
> >> more popular sense Vance Packard how would you account for the existence of these people and how would you account
> >> 17:37
> >> for the fact that there are not more likely I would not I say and I don't think I did say that
> >> 17:44
> >> we have no dissent and what I did say and what I mean and what I would like to
> >> 17:50
> >> repeat is we have a considerable amount of dissent we can afford this dissent
> >> 17:58
> >> because it remains completely and entirely in effective we can afford to
> >> 18:07
> >> have C right minutes we can afford to let Vance Packard say things which
> >> 18:14
> >> formally would have been very meticulously considered because our
> >> 18:22
> >> society is so strong so cohesive so a powerful that these revelations don't do
> >> 18:31
> >> it any harm and in a sense that is good but in another sense and perhaps and the
> >> 18:38
> >> deeper sentence is very bad John YES on the question I have two questions really
> >> 18:44
> >> but first I'd like to ask you about the particular phenomenon of Vance Packard uh he sells in the hundreds of thousands
> >> 18:54
> >> of copies and is in his widely read and
> >> 18:59
> >> and yet seems to have no real influence in the society it's the kind of thing
> >> 19:04
> >> that just slips off the surface that it makes perhaps a momentary impression and
> >> 19:10
> >> disappears and of course in the case of see right mills professor mills wrote a
> >> 19:17
> >> book club listen Yankee which sold over 400,000 copies and was read as I noticed
> >> 19:22
> >> by Subway's by secretaries writing on the subway and yet again made no
> >> 19:27
> >> impression the society seems not only confident to allow dissenters to exist
> >> 19:34
> >> but to allow them to be fairly widely disseminated in some cases what how
> >> 19:41
> >> would you want to comment on the phenomenon of the lack of impression of these people in the end the processes
> >> 19:47
> >> and devices by with which this is accomplished yes because I believe there's another in
> >> 19:53
> >> rushon which overrides and we consent in the last analysis destroys as the or
> >> 20:01
> >> mate it makes impotent as the impressions left as these books there is name is the
> >> 20:07
> >> impression that that never mind after our this society functions
> >> 20:13
> >> beautifully and efficiently it has succeeded in vastly increasing astonied
> >> 20:21
> >> of living in distributing its benefits over larger section of the former
> >> 20:27
> >> underprivileged population we still have these large areas of poverty but nothing
> >> 20:36
> >> proves that these areas cannot sooner or later also be taken care off
> >> 20:42
> >> so what these people reveal and indict are simply byproducts of the famous
> >> 20:54
> >> affluent society byproducts which are present we have to cope with but which
> >> 21:00
> >> are not really in any way serious and dangerous the the event in the in the
> >> 21:07
> >> recent past that seems most to bear this out it seems to me it was the
> >> 21:13
> >> assassination of the president where there existed at least the opportunity
> >> 21:20
> >> for an act and and the consequences of
> >> 21:25
> >> the active to have a deep impress on the American people and yet it was as if the
> >> 21:31
> >> the display of that for days was like another television rugged similar to
> >> 21:37
> >> show exact which we had after four days it was completely incorporated into the daily business of life there was a new
> >> 21:44
> >> president things are going on yes I'm well what I wanted to ask you was to
> >> 21:50
> >> perhaps comment a little bit more on the the the specific techniques and methods
> >> 21:55
> >> since the the mass communications industry plays such a large role in this
> >> 22:01
> >> whole process would you care to comment on that
> >> 22:06
> >> yes but again I don't want to make the impression that I consider the only
> >> 22:13
> >> thing as a conspiracy once a part of the media of mass communication we have a
> >> 22:20
> >> conspiratorial aspect they are to only a remind you of see a set of the frame of
> >> 22:27
> >> self-censorship which is exercised by the press by the movie industry whatever
> >> 22:33
> >> it is a self-censorship far more effective and far more efficient than
> >> 22:38
> >> any state instituted censor that is not the point I think that these are all
> >> 22:46
> >> these developments have a very rational basis namely precisely let our system
> >> 22:56
> >> works and because it works because it is so productive because it distributes
> >> 23:04
> >> such benefits we repress the pious which we pay for this affluence a world which
> >> 23:12
> >> by the way I would only use a in quotation marks it is this repression it is the repression of the price it cost
> >> 23:19
> >> the sacrifices that are involved which
> >> 23:25
> >> is actually that what bothers me most raises a question because thus far even
> >> 23:31
> >> speaking about such here again I use quotation marks intangibles in quotation
> >> 23:37
> >> marks is the range of choice available not being truly a meaningful choice and the social sciences and the academic
> >> 23:45
> >> institutions while tolerating some dissent nonetheless not really participating in the development and
> >> 23:51
> >> movement of the society what's wrong with the society as it now stands is there a need to change the society
> >> 23:57
> >> I mean don't after all we have haven't we if not if we haven't achieved utopia
> >> 24:03
> >> aren't we getting close to reaching utopia at least in terms of the production of material goods and
> >> 24:09
> >> physical comfort well that question leads to Z what I consider the calls or
> >> 24:15
> >> who at problem rods in a rather large cause of mine as
> >> 24:21
> >> universities a question it was a kind of examination question I asked the
> >> 24:27
> >> students I want to change I want you to tell me what is wrong was a society I never got an answer
> >> 24:33
> >> nobody could or nobody dare to tell me what is actually wrong with a society did the students want the course and
> >> 24:39
> >> knows I didn't because again I completely understand why they didn't is
> >> 24:44
> >> I want to tell me or didn't know what is wrong with it is an T I have to become a
> >> 24:52
> >> little philosophical and even a little utopian for me the world utopia makes no
> >> 24:59
> >> sense because in my view there's nothing today which could be a reason to be
> >> 25:04
> >> called utopia mankind has reached a stage where if it wanted to it could actually within a
> >> 25:11
> >> relatively short time translate into reality even the most utopian idea so
> >> 25:18
> >> the term utopia again is a subterfuge
> >> 25:23
> >> what as long as a society is that it retains that it perpetuates the struggle
> >> 25:31
> >> for existence tall frustration waste
> >> 25:39
> >> although all the intellectual and material capabilities are there to
> >> 25:47
> >> pacify this table before existence in the international arena as well as
> >> 25:53
> >> within the nation and force a private individual and by a pacification of the
> >> 26:01
> >> struggle for existence I mean something I think very concrete I expressed it in
> >> 26:07
> >> the phrase and I think your listener will listen as we know what I'm talking
> >> 26:14
> >> about the abolition of alienated labor we have reached a stage where industrial
> >> 26:21
> >> civilization really could reduce working time to such an extent that the
> >> 26:28
> >> traditional proportion between working time and free timelessly worst that free time becomes
> >> 26:34
> >> full time and working time marginal time this would involve a complete
> >> 26:42
> >> transvaluation of values it would cancel
> >> 26:47
> >> some of the most cherished abuse of the established organization for example the
> >> 26:54
> >> need for earning a living instead of making life and end in itself and not a
> >> 27:01
> >> means to attain an end which is either never attained or only in an age where
> >> 27:06
> >> you cannot enjoy it anymore this I think today is the alternative and this art relative is systematically
> >> 27:14
> >> again not in terms of a conspiracy about objectively prevented by the way in
> >> 27:23
> >> which we continue as he established direction of progress well there are two
> >> 27:28
> >> points there and it would be fair to rephrase the first part of that to say in a kind of shorthand sense that while
> >> 27:36
> >> we have the possibility of living within a society of Plenty the society is still organized as if it were a society of
> >> 27:43
> >> scarcity no for one very simple reason
> >> 27:49
> >> you don't need plenty in order to have a humane society I would even go so far
> >> 27:57
> >> and there again you will have to protect me I would even be a good so far as to
> >> 28:03
> >> say that one of the crimes of our present area you are is that we have too
> >> 28:10
> >> much there in a situation where the vast majority of the people of the earth have
> >> 28:16
> >> to litter so it is not a question of Plenty well let me change to other than the comparison between enough we had the
> >> 28:23
> >> potential of developing a society based on enough and we're still living as a society based on scarcity that's correct
> >> 28:31
> >> now the second part of that the second part of what you just said can I interrupt you I'm a question of enough
> >> 28:38
> >> and scarcity isn't it also true that
> >> 28:44
> >> that the the concept of scarcity doesn't apply because the the need to waste is
> >> 28:52
> >> so paramount injustice society certainly the need to waste as paramount as a need
> >> 28:58
> >> to waste is absolutely essential because it is a need for waste which in turn
> >> 29:06
> >> perpetuates the need for earning a living the need for growth for doing
> >> 29:12
> >> work which in fact technically is already superfluous can we make you into
> >> 29:19
> >> a bit of a visionary and ask you to discuss what the nature of a society that where the concepts of work and
> >> 29:26
> >> leisure breakdown will be like or what you would expect you cannot because we
> >> 29:34
> >> are at present I think utterly incapable to draft anything like a blueprint for
> >> 29:41
> >> such a society it is so easily ridiculed
> >> 29:49
> >> because we always assume that the individuals si have been preconditioned
> >> 29:56
> >> si are now will suddenly be placed in a situation in which as they don't have to
> >> 30:02
> >> work for a living anymore in which they don't have to earn a living anymore in which most of their time as free time
> >> 30:10
> >> and it is then very easy to say and I agree that would be a catastrophe and a detail perhaps the greatest catastrophe
> >> 30:17
> >> of the civilization it would be complete chaos it would be a nightmare there we
> >> 30:23
> >> cannot and risen envision such a society because it was so radically different
> >> 30:28
> >> from what we have now that any such vision would really be innovative
> >> 30:34
> >> responsible well let me try this comment then that we have the potential of
> >> 30:39
> >> developing however it might be organized and set up something approaching what has traditionally been considered a
> >> 30:46
> >> utopian kind of existence yes now then
> >> 30:51
> >> you then go on in the second part of your earlier statement to say that you see the society however
> >> 30:57
> >> moving and with tendencies which not only are not leading toward the establishment or existence of this kind
> >> 31:03
> >> of society but are actually leading in the other direction and this is what I wanted to to question you on because
> >> 31:09
> >> hadn't had always been true that the technological abilities of society have
> >> 31:14
> >> been ahead of the social abilities of the society to use utilize these techniques isn't this simply a question
> >> 31:22
> >> of cultural lag why isn't it that we aren't in fact slowly evolving a
> >> 31:28
> >> framework whereby we can use these technological developments to create a healthy human society because in my view
> >> 31:36
> >> it is not simply a time lag or a cultural lag in any other sense the
> >> 31:44
> >> decisive difference here is that what is in worth is not simply a better
> >> 31:51
> >> utilization and a better development of the available technical resources but
> >> 31:58
> >> what I called a radical redirection of technical progress itself and such a
> >> 32:05
> >> radical redirection of technical progress namely first to the satisfaction of vital needs and to a
> >> 32:12
> >> pacification such a radical redirection is in my view not possible within the
> >> 32:21
> >> established framework but would involve a sweeping change in our institutions
> >> 32:29
> >> which we're still institutions adopted to scarcity and not to what we
> >> 32:37
> >> potentially have now why can't this change be made let me let me also quote
> >> 32:44
> >> at this point something from your introduction that may or may not throw a light on on what I'm getting at you said
> >> 32:50
> >> here that the way in which is assigned he organizes the life of its members involves an initial choice between
> >> 32:57
> >> historical alternatives which are determined by the inherited level of the material and intellectual culture the
> >> 33:03
> >> choice itself results from the play of the dominant interests it anticipates
> >> 33:08
> >> specific modes transforming and utilized man in nature and rejects other modes etc the word I was I was looking at
> >> 33:15
> >> there with the word choice if I would not believe that such a redirection is
> >> 33:22
> >> historically possible I wouldn't have written my book as far as it choices
> >> 33:27
> >> concerned there indeed I am very pessimistic because the choice would
> >> 33:35
> >> require among other things men who live
> >> 33:41
> >> in the dire need for such a change this dire need is as I pointed out today
> >> 33:49
> >> effectively repressed it would furthermore require that these people
> >> 33:56
> >> who live in need of such a change actually have the power to bring the
> >> 34:01
> >> change about this to at present is not the case
> >> 34:07
> >> does anybody map it from this society as it's currently set up yes most certainly
> >> 34:12
> >> I think if not the majority at least a large segment of the population benefit
> >> 34:19
> >> for it and that is precisely why it is so serious a wider so pain for you that
> >> 34:24
> >> you criticize a society but I believe that Wars at stake than these benefits
> >> 34:32
> >> where to use a cliche or though I hate it I seriously believe that the chances
> >> 34:40
> >> of a human and humane existence for all without war the are at stake and in view
> >> 34:48
> >> of these chances I think one has to criticize even a society which is more
> >> 34:54
> >> beneficial to more people perhaps and any preceding society in history but in
> >> 35:01
> >> a sense it also it also doesn't it although it may benefit some members more than others it also does well it
> >> 35:13
> >> also wraps up those who benefit to some extent and and doesn't allow for their own full full development as human
> >> 35:20
> >> beings and I think this is what you meant when you spoke at one point the world to become the staff of total administration which absorbs even the
> >> 35:26
> >> administrators yes it absorbs not only the administrators it suffocates not
> >> 35:34
> >> only the need for a redirection of progress but it even does a best to
> >> 35:41
> >> arrest as a development of concepts and modes of thoughts which could define
> >> 35:49
> >> good sketch alternatives of the development not only a quantitative the
> >> 35:56
> >> changes but qualitative changes that is why I have the critique of present a
> >> 36:02
> >> positivism and a criticism which I consider a pseudoaneurysm a false and
> >> 36:10
> >> premise ism because it Orient's itself on a restricted and manipulated
> >> 36:16
> >> experience I just want to push you in this on a second and then on John I know has a question previously it might be
> >> 36:25
> >> said that a society that benefitted certain groups in the society rather than others had to be maintained in the
> >> 36:31
> >> eyes of those who benefited because it was simply impossible technologically for the group that benefited to maintain
> >> 36:38
> >> its particular benefits in an equalitarian totally equalitarian system
> >> 36:45
> >> but now we have a society where that is no longer impossible where in fact those who benefit need not give up very much
> >> 36:51
> >> in order to share their benefits with the others in the society through the advent of automation cybernetics and
> >> 36:58
> >> these techniques also in the current situation isn't it true that those who
> >> 37:04
> >> benefit could benefit more in a different social situation why then isn't it possible that traditional
> >> 37:12
> >> leadership groups themselves could at this point under these conditions make the transition to a different kind of
> >> 37:17
> >> society because it would be as far as I draw the first case of their story in
> >> 37:23
> >> which a invested and intentionally darshan or a ruling class if you wish
> >> 37:30
> >> has voluntarily abdicated the chances that the
> >> 37:36
> >> a not benefit the way they benefit now the risk of serious disruptions and even
> >> 37:45
> >> of a catastrophe and Worf is such that they will understandably not be willing
> >> 37:53
> >> to voluntarily to institute so exchanges
> >> 38:00
> >> direct from in the same society I think argues that they're um are are certain
> >> 38:07
> >> strong reasons why those who even those involved in leadership do not benefit as greatly into society as they could from
> >> 38:14
> >> a different kind of society couldn't this act is a sufficient stimulation to Lana where leadership tonight a
> >> 38:20
> >> transition there no as far as I remember Indian spy that simply well for example
> >> 38:28
> >> that the rich are not happy now in the first place I never took that very
> >> 38:34
> >> seriously and I don't believe that the unhappiness or so it should really be a
> >> 38:41
> >> matter of serious concern and in the second place I don't think you can
> >> 38:46
> >> interpret this reluctance primarily in Psychological terms what is involved
> >> 38:52
> >> after all is a deed to speak perfectly frankly a fundamental change and as he
> >> 38:58
> >> established political and economic institutions has already indicated for
> >> 39:04
> >> example a plant economy really plant economy with priority set on the
> >> 39:10
> >> satisfaction of needs is not compatible
> >> 39:15
> >> with the present private control of the economy with these individual one final
> >> 39:22
> >> question on this point with these with this leadership be giving up much more than simply a question of status and
> >> 39:28
> >> leadership would they be giving up any material conditions of livelihood again
> >> 39:36
> >> looking back at history it is at least possible or probable that they would
> >> 39:45
> >> indeed have to give up much of what they have now that others would move in we want to do
> >> 39:52
> >> it in a different way that I would indeed say John yes you describe an a
> >> 40:00
> >> contradiction or an antagonism between the need for change and I assume this is
> >> 40:07
> >> a kind of objective need that exists without the wishes or rub or feelings of
> >> 40:13
> >> of anyone and the repression of the expression of the need for this change
> >> 40:18
> >> now do you foresee in any in any sense
> >> 40:25
> >> perhaps even in the classical Marcion sense a breakdown based on this kind of
> >> 40:30
> >> contradiction in the system that will force some kind of change perhaps not
> >> 40:35
> >> the one that we want or the one that you foresee the possibilities of such a
> >> 40:42
> >> breakdown are such that I think that
> >> 40:48
> >> yields a most rabid Marxist would wish them for example I could imagine that a
> >> 40:55
> >> nuclear war or even a short of in declare war a large-scale international
> >> 41:02
> >> war would release the forces that may
> >> 41:08
> >> make for such a redirection of progress but who's insane enough to wish that you
> >> 41:16
> >> don't see it see such a breakdown stemming from less cataclysmic factors
> >> 41:24
> >> like stagnation within the economy or some kind of breakdown in the in the
> >> 41:29
> >> arrangement and organization of our social and sexual mores for example
> >> 41:35
> >> there's a group in among writers for example Norman Mailer
> >> 41:42
> >> in particular who talks about the sexual revolution these factors have any
> >> 41:49
> >> significance to your way of thinking could we expand sexual other kind of a whole moral Christ yes well that's what
> >> 41:54
> >> I think there is more lovely disasters and almost cubital applications of the
> >> 42:02
> >> term evolution we have in our evolution of the coca-cola company brings out the bottle it is a revolution and bottling
> >> 42:09
> >> we have a revolution in the order and whoever a loom evolution and everything only we don't have a revolution rather
> >> 42:17
> >> the only field in which the term revolution makes any sense I don't see a sexual revolution at all
> >> 42:23
> >> on the contrary as I try to point out in my book I see a very nice very welcome
> >> 42:30
> >> and very as pleasurable and pleasant adaptation of sexual mores to the
> >> 42:37
> >> requirements of the affluent society which simply cannot do any more with a
> >> 42:43
> >> Victorian morality that has nothing to do with an evolution took to follow up
> >> 42:50
> >> on that the this very pleasant
> >> 42:58
> >> development than our sexual and social mores that you talk about seems to
> >> 43:04
> >> develop somewhat in opposition to the to the non terroristic totalitarian izing
> >> 43:12
> >> of a society yes well no I doubt even let doubt even let because the more
> >> 43:19
> >> sexual freedom people have within the established within the establishment and
> >> 43:28
> >> without being punished by the establishment the easier they are to
> >> 43:33
> >> guide the easier they are to manipulate now please don't misunderstand me I will
> >> 43:38
> >> be the last to condemn this liberation and sexual morality let me ask you a
> >> 43:45
> >> question historically uh maybe you can answer you don't want to or can't answer this but and this I thought of this one John
> >> 43:53
> >> brought up the question of the web llama use of a revolution that changes in our
> >> 43:58
> >> sexual mores in addition we find certain tendencies taking place in art and
> >> 44:04
> >> literature and also in the use of drugs which seem possibly to be interrelated
> >> 44:09
> >> here there's been a great deal of talk about another revolution the the drug
> >> 44:15
> >> revolution the use of consciousness expanding drugs were with mr. Timothy
> >> 44:20
> >> Leary and if if International Federation for internal freedom and similarly
> >> 44:26
> >> artists in perhaps analogous Y and in Abstract Expressionism in tendencies
> >> 44:32
> >> like this have have developed an art form which becomes at least to me so solipsistic that it almost ceases to
> >> 44:38
> >> have any relevance other than for oneself are there historical parallels
> >> 44:43
> >> and these kinds of developments and other social tendencies and developments and when one here is a great deal I I
> >> 44:50
> >> was thinking of the decline of the Roman Empire for example as being a time of libertine ism and a concern with extreme
> >> 45:01
> >> individuality the period following the French Revolution yes rather period following the French Revolution the
> >> 45:08
> >> period of Sydney liked was slightly different because there did you at a considerable degree of genuine freedom
> >> 45:16
> >> in these things provided you belong to deter a nest away the others didn't have it and never did have it as far as it
> >> 45:24
> >> dogs are concerned this is very close to my heart because again unfortunately in the universities you know we are very
> >> 45:32
> >> much concerned with it in this respect I'm a terrible reactionary as in many
> >> 45:38
> >> other aspects I think that Doc's are reprehensible and that the only case in
> >> 45:45
> >> which they are to be welcomed is in case of pain of insufferable physical pain in
> >> 45:53
> >> all other cases they cannot possibly do what these people pretend as they do
> >> 46:01
> >> especially not an art literature development of consciousness or these if
> >> 46:07
> >> any singer acts of human freedom and if they are not the development at
> >> 46:13
> >> attainment of human freedom they will invariably a compressor opposite over
> >> 46:18
> >> they are supposed to be air to accomplish namely some kind of illusionary a happiness illusory
> >> 46:25
> >> contentment illusory experience which again may very well become a vehicle of
> >> 46:31
> >> adjustment rather than the opposite but isn't the ability in a certain sense to to take drugs which can expand your
> >> 46:38
> >> personal individual consciousness to their greatest extent if in fact this is what they do or to work in art forms
> >> 46:45
> >> which which expands one one's own feelings and emotions to the utmost
> >> 46:50
> >> isn't this really a kind of liberation and freedom which is unparalleled in
> >> 46:56
> >> history well maybe it is a revelation form things for which you shouldn't be liberated because they are precisely the
> >> 47:03
> >> very essence of the present state of affairs and if you liberate yourself artificially form it what you actually
> >> 47:10
> >> do is not develop your consciousness but arrest your consciousness in other words
> >> 47:15
> >> this isn't so much a freedom to as a freedom from exactly you talk to the
> >> 47:21
> >> misuse of the term revolution would you apply the the same approbation to the
> >> 47:30
> >> use of the term in in the context of the civil rights movement the Negro
> >> 47:35
> >> revolution as well do you see this in other words as a as a sign as a factor
> >> 47:45
> >> for change in the Society of a significant sword feet before you mention that I let me just point out but
> >> 47:51
> >> I think what possibly were working toward is some is is to see whether or not there are areas in which or forces
> >> 47:58
> >> within the society which offer an opportunity for social change of some kind am I wrong John no yeah that's
> >> 48:03
> >> right yes it is certainly this movement certainly is a movement towards social
> >> 48:10
> >> change I would not call it a revolution because
> >> 48:15
> >> I personally cannot understand how you can call a revolution a movement which
> >> 48:23
> >> tries to implement the principles of the Declaration of Independence I mean as a
> >> 48:30
> >> mere fact that we have to have such a movement today almost 200 years after
> >> 48:37
> >> the Declaration of Independence I think characterizes our society sufficiently
> >> 48:43
> >> it is not a revolution it will see a effort to finally to translate into
> >> 48:52
> >> reality and what was promised a centuries ago the promise was which
> >> 48:58
> >> actually modern society began and which is still not translated into reality
> >> 49:04
> >> see right mills dealt with two other groups within the society namely the
> >> 49:09
> >> labor movement and the intellectuals would you apply the same criticism to
> >> 49:15
> >> both of these groups you want to deal with them in turn I did not apply any criticism as far as I remember to the
> >> 49:22
> >> civil rights movement into the Negro movement as far as far as a lady I
> >> 49:27
> >> didn't mean criticism had sense but an estimate of every yes as far as labor
> >> 49:34
> >> movement is concerned or I can say is that at present organized labor in the
> >> 49:41
> >> United States and not only in the United States has nothing to do anymore of this
> >> 49:46
> >> and what Marx wants court as a polity reott and the develop a consciousness
> >> 49:54
> >> and see revolutionary potential off as apologia
> >> 49:59
> >> organized labor has today become one of the countervailing powers their
> >> 50:05
> >> cooperating wizards counter countervailing power in the strengthening and improvement of the
> >> 50:12
> >> powers that be again I certainly do not
> >> 50:18
> >> say that in any way as a kind of accusation or indictment only in order
> >> 50:23
> >> to characterize as the difference between the present state of affairs and the julep to 19th
> >> 50:31
> >> century and in this country the turkeys would a class analysis of the society
> >> 50:39
> >> still have any meaning given the the widespread affluence and the repression
> >> 50:46
> >> of any significant consciousness of problems within the society I can't help
> >> 50:54
> >> it but I do believe that we still have a class Society a class Society is not
> >> 51:00
> >> characterized by the increasing higher standard of living of the wid classes
> >> 51:06
> >> what is characterized today most outspokenly characterized by the fact
> >> 51:13
> >> that we have one group or class which by
> >> 51:19
> >> virtue of its position in the social and economic process decides and determines
> >> 51:27
> >> the fate of the entire population and that the majority of the population
> >> 51:33
> >> again by virtue of they are positioned in the social and economic process is
> >> 51:41
> >> really not in any way self determinating
> >> 51:46
> >> in speaking of classes let me only first bring up something else when you speak of of social change and how it takes
> >> 51:52
> >> place and I'll quote here you say first which we've already said the choice is
> >> 51:58
> >> primarily but only primarily the privilege of those groups which have attained control over the productive
> >> 52:03
> >> processes their control projects the way of life for the whole and the ensuing and enslaving necessity is the result of
> >> 52:10
> >> their freedom then you say and the possible abolition of this necessity pens on a new ingression of freedom not
> >> 52:16
> >> any freedom but that of men who comprehend the given necessity as insufferable pain and as unnecessary so
> >> 52:23
> >> that here you set up with your criteria of social change a group which is I
> >> 52:29
> >> would say from this almost totally excluded from benefit to the society and you make this clear as you said earlier
> >> 52:35
> >> in terms of labor movement and you also make it clear when you speak of of the people in general and their ability to
> >> 52:41
> >> change the situation where you argue that in the redistribution of wealth and
> >> 52:47
> >> equalization of classes there is simply a new stratification characteristic of advanced industrial society and not any
> >> 52:53
> >> basic chance to change that method of stratification and ratification but then
> >> 53:00
> >> you close your book and this is only the last half page out of 257 it's true when
> >> 53:06
> >> you say however underneath the conservative popular base is the substratum of the outcasts and Outsiders
> >> 53:13
> >> the exploited and persecuted of other races and colors the unemployed and unemployable they exist outside the
> >> 53:19
> >> democratic process they're their life
> >> 53:26
> >> their life is the most immediate in the most real need for ending intolerable conditions and institutions thus their
> >> 53:32
> >> opposition is revolutionary even if their consciousness is not the fact that they start refusing to play the game
> >> 53:38
> >> maybe the fact which marks the beginning of the end of the period now is the fact
> >> 53:44
> >> that you spend only a half-page in this in any a sense characteristic of your evaluation of the possibility of this
> >> 53:49
> >> tendency only partly characteristic the other part is that as I say only the
> >> 53:56
> >> beginnings that may mark easy beginnings these group still are too powerless to
> >> 54:04
> >> accomplish a change by themselves what I would like to add here that if I speak
> >> 54:11
> >> of the ingestion of a new freedom motivated by the awareness of
> >> 54:18
> >> intolerable the conditions that does not necessarily and exclusively me and
> >> 54:24
> >> abject poverty and misery I for example
> >> 54:29
> >> can very well envisage conditions under which the social groups which are not
> >> 54:37
> >> prefer which are not a little in a live which do not live in misery become aware
> >> 54:42
> >> of the insanity of a society in which
> >> 54:47
> >> they have to continue in which their to continue alienated
> >> 54:52
> >> labor continual performances which they actually hate continue the struggle for
> >> 55:01
> >> existence which has become more and more a trace in the face of as impossible
> >> 55:09
> >> abolition of loyalties and that this awareness may well spread and become one
> >> 55:15
> >> of those potentially changing forces there currently are a number of programs
> >> 55:20
> >> taking place throughout the country and of course the one that have gotten the most press recently of the Appalachians for Appalachia but also here in New York
> >> 55:28
> >> City and elsewhere in Oakland California there have been a number of programs in which an enormous amount of money is
> >> 55:34
> >> being spent in extremely small locations and an attempt to take this particular group of the population and somehow
> >> 55:40
> >> integrate them into the society and I'm thinking of a project like the one going on in Harlem which is going to in which
> >> 55:46
> >> eighty million dollars is going to be invested or one on the Lower East Side which I believe has been allocated 120
> >> 55:51
> >> million dollars and as I understand it much of this money has come from extremely sophisticated extremely
> >> 55:57
> >> sophisticated area of the leadership of the nation do you think that these kinds
> >> 56:02
> >> of programs or any kind of program will be able to reduce the number of those who are unemployed and unemployable in
> >> 56:09
> >> other words which way do you see this tendency going do you see this this potentially revolutionary group increasing report or decreasing that is
> >> 56:19
> >> very hard to say because it depends entirely on the national and
> >> 56:24
> >> international situation as to the project you mentioned naturally any and
> >> 56:30
> >> every project that produces even in a small area misery and poverty and dirt
> >> 56:38
> >> is good and should be supported but
> >> 56:43
> >> without illusions that they do not have the key for the decisive change and it
> >> 56:51
> >> seems to be a clear because this is not a local Messiah but a fire that not only
> >> 56:58
> >> concerns the nation as a whole about a soup national core to John normal well let me
> >> 57:06
> >> ask one final question what do you see and I think in a sense you've answered this what do you see the role of of
> >> 57:12
> >> scholars and intellectuals to be given this particular state of society where
> >> 57:19
> >> there doesn't seem to be at least if your analysis is correct much concrete action that can be done at this point
> >> 57:26
> >> and indeed I'd say your analysis is a rather pessimistic one yes it is a
> >> 57:31
> >> pessimistic one and precisely in this situation as the intellectual the scholar perhaps has a more responsible
> >> 57:40
> >> or than he ever had before because it is his task today against all a apparent or
> >> 57:49
> >> real success to preserve or rather to
> >> 57:56
> >> develop those concepts those ideas those
> >> 58:01
> >> aspirations which do not succumb to the oil or the seeming benefits of any
> >> 58:10
> >> presence aasaiya t but which concepts and modes of thought which remain loyal
> >> 58:17
> >> to the essentially o it hopes and aspirations of mankind for a society in
> >> 58:25
> >> which as a struggle for existence as a deed pacified this is today and more
> >> 58:31
> >> than ever before a real possibility and the entire power and the entire wealth
> >> 58:37
> >> of our society is at present directed against this possibility precisely
> >> 58:44
> >> because it is over here so in this situation discolor and the intellectual has one of the most decisive tasks thank
> >> 58:53
> >> you very much we've been talking to dr. Herbert mark who's a professor of philosophy at Brandeis University and
> >> 58:58
> >> author of a recent for one-dimensional man published by beacon press and John Fannin an editor of a New York
> >> 59:05
> >> publishing house
> >>
> >>
> >> *****************************************
> > thanks GZ
> Good morning, Jordy, interesting selection.
Shalom Will, thank you

On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 10:17:04 AM UTC-5, jdcha...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 7:55:15 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > Jordy C wrote:
> >
> > > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 4:41:34 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> > >> Jordy C. wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gyL5ie6-x0
> > >>
> > >> Quite of ionterest, I am reading the transcript as of now...
> > >>
> > >> **********************************
> > >>
> > >> Transcript
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 0:00
> > >> sitting with me as dr. Herbert minutiae a professor of politics and philosophy at Brandeis University and the author of
> > >> 0:07
> > >> the recent book entitled one-dimensional man published by beacon press and also John Simon who's an editor of New York
> > >> 0:13
> > >> publishing house and we're going to be discussing dr. marcoh whose book one-dimensional man and this is a book
> > >> 0:20
> > >> as I understand it which is about the United States and its general thesis is
> > >> 0:25
> > >> that in certain significant ways we have reached situation or are reaching a
> > >> 0:30
> > >> situation with it which is extremely close to a totalitarian society and I
> > >> 0:37
> > >> think we'll begin by discussing what precisely we mean by this and I want to quote from dr. Marcus's book you're
> > >> 0:44
> > >> right by virtue of the way in his organized his technological base contemporary industrial society tends to
> > >> 0:51
> > >> be totalitarian for totalitarian is not only a terroristic political coordination of society but also a non
> > >> 0:58
> > >> terroristic economic technical coordination which operates through the manipulation of needs by vested
> > >> 1:05
> > >> interests it does precludes the emergence of an effective opposition against the whole not only the specific
> > >> 1:12
> > >> form of government or party rule makes for totalitarianism but also a specific
> > >> 1:17
> > >> system of production and distribution which may well be compatible with a pluralism of parties newspapers
> > >> 1:23
> > >> countervailing powers etc and I wonder if you'd begin by telling us precisely
> > >> 1:28
> > >> what you mean in this sense by totalitarian yes may I begin by a
> > >> 1:34
> > >> qualifying a little what you said I wish only my book total of dear we see a
> > >> 1:39
> > >> United States a deal esse quotation shows with certain tendencies not more
> > >> 1:47
> > >> certain tendencies which I think are observable in the most advanced areas of
> > >> 1:55
> > >> industrial civilization the most advanced area of industrial civilization
> > >> 2:01
> > >> of course is the United States today but even in the United States the tendencies
> > >> 2:07
> > >> to which I point are prevailing if they
> > >> 2:12
> > >> are prevailing at or not simply beginning to show themselves only in certain advanced
> > >> 2:20
> > >> areas meaning as is very known that are still vast regions of under development
> > >> 2:26
> > >> of poverty even in the United States now by a totalitarian I used the term fully
> > >> 2:34
> > >> aware that this might violate certain taboos we are used to apply the term
> > >> 2:42
> > >> totalitarian only to well first the fascist and Nazi society then the
> > >> 2:49
> > >> communist society that is to say we are used to apply the term totalitarian to
> > >> 2:55
> > >> societies under more or less terroristic dictatorship with a one-party system
> > >> 3:02
> > >> with the more or less terroristic elimination of all opposition I believe
> > >> 3:10
> > >> that such a confined restricted use of the term totalitarian is itself
> > >> 3:16
> > >> ideological because it may serve to cover up the fact at least in my opinion
> > >> 3:23
> > >> a fact where totalitarian tendencies are beginning to show even in societies
> > >> 3:31
> > >> which are still democratic which preserves in democratic poses and institutions which have several parties
> > >> 3:39
> > >> which may even have countervailing forces by totalitarian I mean the
> > >> 3:49
> > >> constellation of situation enrich the private as well as public existence of
> > >> 3:57
> > >> man of the individual is controlled is
> > >> 4:04
> > >> exposed to standardised required ways of
> > >> 4:11
> > >> behavior standardized imposed values standardized imposed needs this can be
> > >> 4:19
> > >> done by a private as well as by a public you're cutting it can be done why are
> > >> 4:25
> > >> the correctly Democratic Media of mass communication and so on it is in a way a
> > >> 4:33
> > >> consequence as a quote source of technical formulas which implies mass
> > >> 4:40
> > >> production and mass distribution mass production and mass distribution in turn
> > >> 4:46
> > >> require a considerable degree of standardization a considerable degree of
> > >> 4:52
> > >> submission of the individual to pre given and superimposed values ideas
> > >> 5:01
> > >> aspirations goers and so on is this a necessary condition of this particular productive capacity and system
> > >> 5:09
> > >> well the tale of necessary apply to history is a very question of the term
> > >> 5:16
> > >> we can see in a strict sense if you mean it in the sense of a physical law nothing is necessarily an estimate I do
> > >> 5:24
> > >> think it is the by-product at present inevitable byproduct of the way in which
> > >> 5:32
> > >> technical progress actually has taken place in industrial society and this and
> > >> 5:40
> > >> and this this argument applies as well to societies that are organized and I more or less individualistic basis as
> > >> 5:47
> > >> well as those that are collectivistic aliy organized that is the same critique
> > >> 5:52
> > >> applies as well to the soviet union or to the countries in the Soviet bloc as it does to the United States you would
> > >> 5:58
> > >> you would argue that I would say it applies in the sense that similar tendencies oh I think observable there
> > >> 6:06
> > >> of course was vast differences based on the entirely different foundation and
> > >> 6:12
> > >> organization of the entire economy but in as much as the Soviet Union will very
> > >> 6:19
> > >> soon join the most advanced areas of industrial civilization I think the two
> > >> 6:25
> > >> systems will become more or less assimilated I think I think we want to make clear at this point because you do
> > >> 6:31
> > >> make it clear in your book that you do see differences between the Soviet Union and the United States differences
> > >> 6:37
> > >> and maybe you are a ground away where the obvious difference is that the
> > >> 6:42
> > >> society as I just mentioned is organized on an essentially different basis the
> > >> 6:49
> > >> collective ownership and control of the means of production regardless of whether or not you consider it as
> > >> 6:55
> > >> already socialist or not socialist at all is a sufficiently different form a
> > >> 7:02
> > >> society organized on the basis of private control and ownership of the means of production to make for decisive
> > >> 7:10
> > >> differences in the tendencies of development there is also if there is there not a difference in the legal
> > >> 7:17
> > >> basis of control by the state or is there nobody mid by legal basis well we
> > >> 7:24
> > >> are to some extent individuals and their own participation and their own ability to dissent are protected more in the
> > >> 7:33
> > >> American system than in the Soviet system they are certainly more protected
> > >> 7:39
> > >> they are even institutionalized as the American system they are not institutionalized in the Soviet system
> > >> 7:45
> > >> but precisely here I have my way I have a great fear that this
> > >> 7:52
> > >> institutionalization of civil rights and especially the right and Liberty to dissent is gradually eroded is reduced
> > >> 8:01
> > >> not much at all not by a conspiracy but simply by the
> > >> 8:06
> > >> mechanisms of technical goals within the
> > >> 8:13
> > >> framework of the established institutions which are before we get
> > >> 8:19
> > >> into a discussion of that particular area since we're attempting to define
> > >> 8:25
> > >> your use of totalitarian which I take it is quite different than say call Friedreich's use of the word oh yes I
> > >> 8:32
> > >> wanted to ask about the about the the
> > >> 8:37
> > >> applicability of the concept to the non advanced sectors of the world where
> > >> 8:44
> > >> particularly those countries that are now labeled socialist and are going into four extents planning and and use of many of the
> > >> 8:52
> > >> kinds of controls that you suggest exist in advanced industrial society Ghana Cuba Algeria for example the definition
> > >> 9:01
> > >> begin to apply in these countries as well on these areas that is one of the
> > >> 9:07
> > >> most difficult questions to raise and to answer on the one hand I would say and
> > >> 9:14
> > >> it may sound paradoxical although I don't think it is paradoxical that these
> > >> 9:19
> > >> countries precisely because they are not yet at the advanced stage of
> > >> 9:26
> > >> industrialization where they have to buy all the negative features of this kind
> > >> 9:34
> > >> of industrialization that these countries have a better chance of
> > >> 9:41
> > >> proceeding differently that these countries have a better chance of building form Scott a failure and a more
> > >> 9:50
> > >> human society but there are other impediments here namely that the vast
> > >> 9:59
> > >> majority of these countries is too weak in resources intellectual as well as
> > >> 10:06
> > >> material to do it by themselves they are by themselves as far as I can
> > >> 10:13
> > >> see again with some exceptions incapable of accumulating the funds capital funds
> > >> 10:21
> > >> that would be necessary for development and therefore will have to rely on
> > >> 10:26
> > >> outside help which can come only from the east or from the west and I am a
> > >> 10:33
> > >> friends of less this dependence on outside health would not almost
> > >> 10:38
> > >> inevitably these countries lead along the path that present gone either by the
> > >> 10:47
> > >> east or by serviced so that the idea of a third force is still a more or less a
> > >> 10:53
> > >> utopian idea one more question on in this general area the Isaac torture in
> > >> 11:02
> > >> his book the the great contest where he dealt with with issues of the Cold War
> > >> 11:09
> > >> which were not really central to this discussion suggested that the the
> > >> 11:15
> > >> potential the ultimate potential for freedom in the organization of the in in
> > >> 11:21
> > >> this sense of the totalitarian soviet society was far greater than existed in
> > >> 11:26
> > >> any area of the West because of the of the way in which the controls were applied and were used would you agree
> > >> 11:33
> > >> with this the formulation of mr. Deutsch is I agree up to a very definite point
> > >> 11:38
> > >> if Georgia wants to say that the establishment of a plant society it does
> > >> 11:46
> > >> not have to cope with the vested interests which otherwise stand in the
> > >> 11:53
> > >> way of a utilization of all available resources for the satisfaction of vital
> > >> 12:00
> > >> needs wherever they are still not satisfied rather than proceeding through wastes
> > >> 12:07
> > >> and planned obsolescence if he wants to say that I agree entirely there
> > >> 12:13
> > >> searching a centrally planned society in which the counteracting vested interest
> > >> 12:19
> > >> are indeed eliminated would have a far greater potential to develop humanity
> > >> 12:26
> > >> let's say in short then another society but here I think we have to place the
> > >> 12:32
> > >> development of Soviet society in the actual context of peaceful or rather
> > >> 12:38
> > >> hostile coexistence which means that the Soviet Union - at present sees itself
> > >> 12:45
> > >> committed to divert a vast section of its resources of the social wealth to
> > >> 12:52
> > >> armament production and thereby has to
> > >> 12:57
> > >> impose sacrifices which otherwise would not have to be imposed I think maybe it
> > >> 13:07
> > >> something we got to explore a little bit at this point is is it to go back to this question of the territory and the
> > >> 13:12
> > >> reason I come back to it I think is because it isn't the provocative word to be used in the context of modern American life one of
> > >> 13:21
> > >> the things you talk about in this regard is the range in the nature of choice available in this society and one should
> > >> 13:30
> > >> say I suppose in the first place that it seems that there is a great range of choice to some extent we have to all choose our political candidates and our
> > >> 13:37
> > >> pretty well our political leaders from a range of candidates we choose what the particular job you want to go to what
> > >> 13:43
> > >> education education we want to go to really choose a candidate or are they not chosen for us do i and you won't
> > >> 13:51
> > >> Weber it is choose a candidate which was actually or running order somebody else does a machine or I don't know what do
> > >> 13:58
> > >> it well there is a choice at least between different candidates with different points of view mr. Barry
> > >> 14:03
> > >> Goldwater has a different orientation I believed and then our president Johnson
> > >> 14:10
> > >> yes certainly are these real choices they are real choices wherever you have
> > >> 14:16
> > >> a real difference of opinion now I'm again God you early suspicious
> > >> 14:23
> > >> of the speeches and platforms and programs made before the elections they
> > >> 14:31
> > >> are usually hardly in any relation to what happened after the election if you
> > >> 14:36
> > >> have still a real difference of opinion I would say you indeed have a choice and
> > >> 14:42
> > >> you have freedom of choice but that is precisely what I start to doubt the mere
> > >> 14:48
> > >> fact is that we have two parties does not yet by itself mean that these
> > >> 14:54
> > >> parties differ in the accenture attitudes and opinions there may well be
> > >> 15:02
> > >> differences within one and the same accepted and established framework in
> > >> 15:08
> > >> which case both parties would compete in preserving the existing framework rather
> > >> 15:16
> > >> than working for alternatives if they are any alternatives one of the
> > >> 15:21
> > >> traditional areas of dissent aside from the political arena choice have been the academies and the
> > >> 15:27
> > >> distance of an intellectual community which at times historically has seen
> > >> 15:32
> > >> things differently than the current establishment of a society do you see in
> > >> 15:39
> > >> in the academies the existence of a real dissent and a real opposition of
> > >> 15:44
> > >> alternatives by academies you mean universities colleges and so on yes well
> > >> 15:53
> > >> I would say since this is precisely the field where I do have experience that is
> > >> 15:59
> > >> perhaps today the area which is still the freest of order my long experience
> > >> 16:07
> > >> with students has shown me that these students at least when they enter the
> > >> 16:13
> > >> university are still entirely open minded that they think by themselves
> > >> 16:20
> > >> that they preserve their open mind that they are highly critical and that's a
> > >> 16:28
> > >> really talk at least if they know that they can talk that depends on the with
> > >> 16:34
> > >> whom they talk gradually however the dire need makes itself first to look for
> > >> 16:42
> > >> a job they know perfectly well that if they go on like that if they continue to
> > >> 16:48
> > >> have really dissenting opinions and not only slight differences in opinion it
> > >> 16:53
> > >> may be very difficult for them to find a job and that sooner or later they have
> > >> 16:59
> > >> to adopt modes of behavior in which at least they conceal the dissent or
> > >> 17:07
> > >> express it in such a way that it does not cause a scandal and I certainly
> > >> 17:13
> > >> don't blame them for doing it but is this really is this really sufficient to explain a lack of this and
> > >> 17:19
> > >> there have been scholars and intellectuals who have been able to take a dissenting position in terms of
> > >> 17:24
> > >> publication and one thinks of individuals like Searight Mills and and in a much different sense and in a much
> > >> 17:30
> > >> more popular sense Vance Packard how would you account for the existence of these people and how would you account
> > >> 17:37
> > >> for the fact that there are not more likely I would not I say and I don't think I did say that
> > >> 17:44
> > >> we have no dissent and what I did say and what I mean and what I would like to
> > >> 17:50
> > >> repeat is we have a considerable amount of dissent we can afford this dissent
> > >> 17:58
> > >> because it remains completely and entirely in effective we can afford to
> > >> 18:07
> > >> have C right minutes we can afford to let Vance Packard say things which
> > >> 18:14
> > >> formally would have been very meticulously considered because our
> > >> 18:22
> > >> society is so strong so cohesive so a powerful that these revelations don't do
> > >> 18:31
> > >> it any harm and in a sense that is good but in another sense and perhaps and the
> > >> 18:38
> > >> deeper sentence is very bad John YES on the question I have two questions really
> > >> 18:44
> > >> but first I'd like to ask you about the particular phenomenon of Vance Packard uh he sells in the hundreds of thousands
> > >> 18:54
> > >> of copies and is in his widely read and
> > >> 18:59
> > >> and yet seems to have no real influence in the society it's the kind of thing
> > >> 19:04
> > >> that just slips off the surface that it makes perhaps a momentary impression and
> > >> 19:10
> > >> disappears and of course in the case of see right mills professor mills wrote a
> > >> 19:17
> > >> book club listen Yankee which sold over 400,000 copies and was read as I noticed
> > >> 19:22
> > >> by Subway's by secretaries writing on the subway and yet again made no
> > >> 19:27
> > >> impression the society seems not only confident to allow dissenters to exist
> > >> 19:34
> > >> but to allow them to be fairly widely disseminated in some cases what how
> > >> 19:41
> > >> would you want to comment on the phenomenon of the lack of impression of these people in the end the processes
> > >> 19:47
> > >> and devices by with which this is accomplished yes because I believe there's another in
> > >> 19:53
> > >> rushon which overrides and we consent in the last analysis destroys as the or
> > >> 20:01
> > >> mate it makes impotent as the impressions left as these books there is name is the
> > >> 20:07
> > >> impression that that never mind after our this society functions
> > >> 20:13
> > >> beautifully and efficiently it has succeeded in vastly increasing astonied
> > >> 20:21
> > >> of living in distributing its benefits over larger section of the former
> > >> 20:27
> > >> underprivileged population we still have these large areas of poverty but nothing
> > >> 20:36
> > >> proves that these areas cannot sooner or later also be taken care off
> > >> 20:42
> > >> so what these people reveal and indict are simply byproducts of the famous
> > >> 20:54
> > >> affluent society byproducts which are present we have to cope with but which
> > >> 21:00
> > >> are not really in any way serious and dangerous the the event in the in the
> > >> 21:07
> > >> recent past that seems most to bear this out it seems to me it was the
> > >> 21:13
> > >> assassination of the president where there existed at least the opportunity
> > >> 21:20
> > >> for an act and and the consequences of
> > >> 21:25
> > >> the active to have a deep impress on the American people and yet it was as if the
> > >> 21:31
> > >> the display of that for days was like another television rugged similar to
> > >> 21:37
> > >> show exact which we had after four days it was completely incorporated into the daily business of life there was a new
> > >> 21:44
> > >> president things are going on yes I'm well what I wanted to ask you was to
> > >> 21:50
> > >> perhaps comment a little bit more on the the the specific techniques and methods
> > >> 21:55
> > >> since the the mass communications industry plays such a large role in this
> > >> 22:01
> > >> whole process would you care to comment on that
> > >> 22:06
> > >> yes but again I don't want to make the impression that I consider the only
> > >> 22:13
> > >> thing as a conspiracy once a part of the media of mass communication we have a
> > >> 22:20
> > >> conspiratorial aspect they are to only a remind you of see a set of the frame of
> > >> 22:27
> > >> self-censorship which is exercised by the press by the movie industry whatever
> > >> 22:33
> > >> it is a self-censorship far more effective and far more efficient than
> > >> 22:38
> > >> any state instituted censor that is not the point I think that these are all
> > >> 22:46
> > >> these developments have a very rational basis namely precisely let our system
> > >> 22:56
> > >> works and because it works because it is so productive because it distributes
> > >> 23:04
> > >> such benefits we repress the pious which we pay for this affluence a world which
> > >> 23:12
> > >> by the way I would only use a in quotation marks it is this repression it is the repression of the price it cost
> > >> 23:19
> > >> the sacrifices that are involved which
> > >> 23:25
> > >> is actually that what bothers me most raises a question because thus far even
> > >> 23:31
> > >> speaking about such here again I use quotation marks intangibles in quotation
> > >> 23:37
> > >> marks is the range of choice available not being truly a meaningful choice and the social sciences and the academic
> > >> 23:45
> > >> institutions while tolerating some dissent nonetheless not really participating in the development and
> > >> 23:51
> > >> movement of the society what's wrong with the society as it now stands is there a need to change the society
> > >> 23:57
> > >> I mean don't after all we have haven't we if not if we haven't achieved utopia
> > >> 24:03
> > >> aren't we getting close to reaching utopia at least in terms of the production of material goods and
> > >> 24:09
> > >> physical comfort well that question leads to Z what I consider the calls or
> > >> 24:15
> > >> who at problem rods in a rather large cause of mine as
> > >> 24:21
> > >> universities a question it was a kind of examination question I asked the
> > >> 24:27
> > >> students I want to change I want you to tell me what is wrong was a society I never got an answer
> > >> 24:33
> > >> nobody could or nobody dare to tell me what is actually wrong with a society did the students want the course and
> > >> 24:39
> > >> knows I didn't because again I completely understand why they didn't is
> > >> 24:44
> > >> I want to tell me or didn't know what is wrong with it is an T I have to become a
> > >> 24:52
> > >> little philosophical and even a little utopian for me the world utopia makes no
> > >> 24:59
> > >> sense because in my view there's nothing today which could be a reason to be
> > >> 25:04
> > >> called utopia mankind has reached a stage where if it wanted to it could actually within a
> > >> 25:11
> > >> relatively short time translate into reality even the most utopian idea so
> > >> 25:18
> > >> the term utopia again is a subterfuge
> > >> 25:23
> > >> what as long as a society is that it retains that it perpetuates the struggle
> > >> 25:31
> > >> for existence tall frustration waste
> > >> 25:39
> > >> although all the intellectual and material capabilities are there to
> > >> 25:47
> > >> pacify this table before existence in the international arena as well as
> > >> 25:53
> > >> within the nation and force a private individual and by a pacification of the
> > >> 26:01
> > >> struggle for existence I mean something I think very concrete I expressed it in
> > >> 26:07
> > >> the phrase and I think your listener will listen as we know what I'm talking
> > >> 26:14
> > >> about the abolition of alienated labor we have reached a stage where industrial
> > >> 26:21
> > >> civilization really could reduce working time to such an extent that the
> > >> 26:28
> > >> traditional proportion between working time and free timelessly worst that free time becomes
> > >> 26:34
> > >> full time and working time marginal time this would involve a complete
> > >> 26:42
> > >> transvaluation of values it would cancel
> > >> 26:47
> > >> some of the most cherished abuse of the established organization for example the
> > >> 26:54
> > >> need for earning a living instead of making life and end in itself and not a
> > >> 27:01
> > >> means to attain an end which is either never attained or only in an age where
> > >> 27:06
> > >> you cannot enjoy it anymore this I think today is the alternative and this art relative is systematically
> > >> 27:14
> > >> again not in terms of a conspiracy about objectively prevented by the way in
> > >> 27:23
> > >> which we continue as he established direction of progress well there are two
> > >> 27:28
> > >> points there and it would be fair to rephrase the first part of that to say in a kind of shorthand sense that while
> > >> 27:36
> > >> we have the possibility of living within a society of Plenty the society is still organized as if it were a society of
> > >> 27:43
> > >> scarcity no for one very simple reason
> > >> 27:49
> > >> you don't need plenty in order to have a humane society I would even go so far
> > >> 27:57
> > >> and there again you will have to protect me I would even be a good so far as to
> > >> 28:03
> > >> say that one of the crimes of our present area you are is that we have too
> > >> 28:10
> > >> much there in a situation where the vast majority of the people of the earth have
> > >> 28:16
> > >> to litter so it is not a question of Plenty well let me change to other than the comparison between enough we had the
> > >> 28:23
> > >> potential of developing a society based on enough and we're still living as a society based on scarcity that's correct
> > >> 28:31
> > >> now the second part of that the second part of what you just said can I interrupt you I'm a question of enough
> > >> 28:38
> > >> and scarcity isn't it also true that
> > >> 28:44
> > >> that the the concept of scarcity doesn't apply because the the need to waste is
> > >> 28:52
> > >> so paramount injustice society certainly the need to waste as paramount as a need
> > >> 28:58
> > >> to waste is absolutely essential because it is a need for waste which in turn
> > >> 29:06
> > >> perpetuates the need for earning a living the need for growth for doing
> > >> 29:12
> > >> work which in fact technically is already superfluous can we make you into
> > >> 29:19
> > >> a bit of a visionary and ask you to discuss what the nature of a society that where the concepts of work and
> > >> 29:26
> > >> leisure breakdown will be like or what you would expect you cannot because we
> > >> 29:34
> > >> are at present I think utterly incapable to draft anything like a blueprint for
> > >> 29:41
> > >> such a society it is so easily ridiculed
> > >> 29:49
> > >> because we always assume that the individuals si have been preconditioned
> > >> 29:56
> > >> si are now will suddenly be placed in a situation in which as they don't have to
> > >> 30:02
> > >> work for a living anymore in which they don't have to earn a living anymore in which most of their time as free time
> > >> 30:10
> > >> and it is then very easy to say and I agree that would be a catastrophe and a detail perhaps the greatest catastrophe
> > >> 30:17
> > >> of the civilization it would be complete chaos it would be a nightmare there we
> > >> 30:23
> > >> cannot and risen envision such a society because it was so radically different
> > >> 30:28
> > >> from what we have now that any such vision would really be innovative
> > >> 30:34
> > >> responsible well let me try this comment then that we have the potential of
> > >> 30:39
> > >> developing however it might be organized and set up something approaching what has traditionally been considered a
> > >> 30:46
> > >> utopian kind of existence yes now then
> > >> 30:51
> > >> you then go on in the second part of your earlier statement to say that you see the society however
> > >> 30:57
> > >> moving and with tendencies which not only are not leading toward the establishment or existence of this kind
> > >> 31:03
> > >> of society but are actually leading in the other direction and this is what I wanted to to question you on because
> > >> 31:09
> > >> hadn't had always been true that the technological abilities of society have
> > >> 31:14
> > >> been ahead of the social abilities of the society to use utilize these techniques isn't this simply a question
> > >> 31:22
> > >> of cultural lag why isn't it that we aren't in fact slowly evolving a
> > >> 31:28
> > >> framework whereby we can use these technological developments to create a healthy human society because in my view
> > >> 31:36
> > >> it is not simply a time lag or a cultural lag in any other sense the
> > >> 31:44
> > >> decisive difference here is that what is in worth is not simply a better
> > >> 31:51
> > >> utilization and a better development of the available technical resources but
> > >> 31:58
> > >> what I called a radical redirection of technical progress itself and such a
> > >> 32:05
> > >> radical redirection of technical progress namely first to the satisfaction of vital needs and to a
> > >> 32:12
> > >> pacification such a radical redirection is in my view not possible within the
> > >> 32:21
> > >> established framework but would involve a sweeping change in our institutions
> > >> 32:29
> > >> which we're still institutions adopted to scarcity and not to what we
> > >> 32:37
> > >> potentially have now why can't this change be made let me let me also quote
> > >> 32:44
> > >> at this point something from your introduction that may or may not throw a light on on what I'm getting at you said
> > >> 32:50
> > >> here that the way in which is assigned he organizes the life of its members involves an initial choice between
> > >> 32:57
> > >> historical alternatives which are determined by the inherited level of the material and intellectual culture the
> > >> 33:03
> > >> choice itself results from the play of the dominant interests it anticipates
> > >> 33:08
> > >> specific modes transforming and utilized man in nature and rejects other modes etc the word I was I was looking at
> > >> 33:15
> > >> there with the word choice if I would not believe that such a redirection is
> > >> 33:22
> > >> historically possible I wouldn't have written my book as far as it choices
> > >> 33:27
> > >> concerned there indeed I am very pessimistic because the choice would
> > >> 33:35
> > >> require among other things men who live
> > >> 33:41
> > >> in the dire need for such a change this dire need is as I pointed out today
> > >> 33:49
> > >> effectively repressed it would furthermore require that these people
> > >> 33:56
> > >> who live in need of such a change actually have the power to bring the
> > >> 34:01
> > >> change about this to at present is not the case
> > >> 34:07
> > >> does anybody map it from this society as it's currently set up yes most certainly
> > >> 34:12
> > >> I think if not the majority at least a large segment of the population benefit
> > >> 34:19
> > >> for it and that is precisely why it is so serious a wider so pain for you that
> > >> 34:24
> > >> you criticize a society but I believe that Wars at stake than these benefits
> > >> 34:32
> > >> where to use a cliche or though I hate it I seriously believe that the chances
> > >> 34:40
> > >> of a human and humane existence for all without war the are at stake and in view
> > >> 34:48
> > >> of these chances I think one has to criticize even a society which is more
> > >> 34:54
> > >> beneficial to more people perhaps and any preceding society in history but in
> > >> 35:01
> > >> a sense it also it also doesn't it although it may benefit some members more than others it also does well it
> > >> 35:13
> > >> also wraps up those who benefit to some extent and and doesn't allow for their own full full development as human
> > >> 35:20
> > >> beings and I think this is what you meant when you spoke at one point the world to become the staff of total administration which absorbs even the
> > >> 35:26
> > >> administrators yes it absorbs not only the administrators it suffocates not
> > >> 35:34
> > >> only the need for a redirection of progress but it even does a best to
> > >> 35:41
> > >> arrest as a development of concepts and modes of thoughts which could define
> > >> 35:49
> > >> good sketch alternatives of the development not only a quantitative the
> > >> 35:56
> > >> changes but qualitative changes that is why I have the critique of present a
> > >> 36:02
> > >> positivism and a criticism which I consider a pseudoaneurysm a false and
> > >> 36:10
> > >> premise ism because it Orient's itself on a restricted and manipulated
> > >> 36:16
> > >> experience I just want to push you in this on a second and then on John I know has a question previously it might be
> > >> 36:25
> > >> said that a society that benefitted certain groups in the society rather than others had to be maintained in the
> > >> 36:31
> > >> eyes of those who benefited because it was simply impossible technologically for the group that benefited to maintain
> > >> 36:38
> > >> its particular benefits in an equalitarian totally equalitarian system
> > >> 36:45
> > >> but now we have a society where that is no longer impossible where in fact those who benefit need not give up very much
> > >> 36:51
> > >> in order to share their benefits with the others in the society through the advent of automation cybernetics and
> > >> 36:58
> > >> these techniques also in the current situation isn't it true that those who
> > >> 37:04
> > >> benefit could benefit more in a different social situation why then isn't it possible that traditional
> > >> 37:12
> > >> leadership groups themselves could at this point under these conditions make the transition to a different kind of
> > >> 37:17
> > >> society because it would be as far as I draw the first case of their story in
> > >> 37:23
> > >> which a invested and intentionally darshan or a ruling class if you wish
> > >> 37:30
> > >> has voluntarily abdicated the chances that the
> > >> 37:36
> > >> a not benefit the way they benefit now the risk of serious disruptions and even
> > >> 37:45
> > >> of a catastrophe and Worf is such that they will understandably not be willing
> > >> 37:53
> > >> to voluntarily to institute so exchanges
> > >> 38:00
> > >> direct from in the same society I think argues that they're um are are certain
> > >> 38:07
> > >> strong reasons why those who even those involved in leadership do not benefit as greatly into society as they could from
> > >> 38:14
> > >> a different kind of society couldn't this act is a sufficient stimulation to Lana where leadership tonight a
> > >> 38:20
> > >> transition there no as far as I remember Indian spy that simply well for example
> > >> 38:28
> > >> that the rich are not happy now in the first place I never took that very
> > >> 38:34
> > >> seriously and I don't believe that the unhappiness or so it should really be a
> > >> 38:41
> > >> matter of serious concern and in the second place I don't think you can
> > >> 38:46
> > >> interpret this reluctance primarily in Psychological terms what is involved
> > >> 38:52
> > >> after all is a deed to speak perfectly frankly a fundamental change and as he
> > >> 38:58
> > >> established political and economic institutions has already indicated for
> > >> 39:04
> > >> example a plant economy really plant economy with priority set on the
> > >> 39:10
> > >> satisfaction of needs is not compatible
> > >> 39:15
> > >> with the present private control of the economy with these individual one final
> > >> 39:22
> > >> question on this point with these with this leadership be giving up much more than simply a question of status and
> > >> 39:28
> > >> leadership would they be giving up any material conditions of livelihood again
> > >> 39:36
> > >> looking back at history it is at least possible or probable that they would
> > >> 39:45
> > >> indeed have to give up much of what they have now that others would move in we want to do
> > >> 39:52
> > >> it in a different way that I would indeed say John yes you describe an a
> > >> 40:00
> > >> contradiction or an antagonism between the need for change and I assume this is
> > >> 40:07
> > >> a kind of objective need that exists without the wishes or rub or feelings of
> > >> 40:13
> > >> of anyone and the repression of the expression of the need for this change
> > >> 40:18
> > >> now do you foresee in any in any sense
> > >> 40:25
> > >> perhaps even in the classical Marcion sense a breakdown based on this kind of
> > >> 40:30
> > >> contradiction in the system that will force some kind of change perhaps not
> > >> 40:35
> > >> the one that we want or the one that you foresee the possibilities of such a
> > >> 40:42
> > >> breakdown are such that I think that
> > >> 40:48
> > >> yields a most rabid Marxist would wish them for example I could imagine that a
> > >> 40:55
> > >> nuclear war or even a short of in declare war a large-scale international
> > >> 41:02
> > >> war would release the forces that may
> > >> 41:08
> > >> make for such a redirection of progress but who's insane enough to wish that you
> > >> 41:16
> > >> don't see it see such a breakdown stemming from less cataclysmic factors
> > >> 41:24
> > >> like stagnation within the economy or some kind of breakdown in the in the
> > >> 41:29
> > >> arrangement and organization of our social and sexual mores for example
> > >> 41:35
> > >> there's a group in among writers for example Norman Mailer
> > >> 41:42
> > >> in particular who talks about the sexual revolution these factors have any
> > >> 41:49
> > >> significance to your way of thinking could we expand sexual other kind of a whole moral Christ yes well that's what
> > >> 41:54
> > >> I think there is more lovely disasters and almost cubital applications of the
> > >> 42:02
> > >> term evolution we have in our evolution of the coca-cola company brings out the bottle it is a revolution and bottling
> > >> 42:09
> > >> we have a revolution in the order and whoever a loom evolution and everything only we don't have a revolution rather
> > >> 42:17
> > >> the only field in which the term revolution makes any sense I don't see a sexual revolution at all
> > >> 42:23
> > >> on the contrary as I try to point out in my book I see a very nice very welcome
> > >> 42:30
> > >> and very as pleasurable and pleasant adaptation of sexual mores to the
> > >> 42:37
> > >> requirements of the affluent society which simply cannot do any more with a
> > >> 42:43
> > >> Victorian morality that has nothing to do with an evolution took to follow up
> > >> 42:50
> > >> on that the this very pleasant
> > >> 42:58
> > >> development than our sexual and social mores that you talk about seems to
> > >> 43:04
> > >> develop somewhat in opposition to the to the non terroristic totalitarian izing
> > >> 43:12
> > >> of a society yes well no I doubt even let doubt even let because the more
> > >> 43:19
> > >> sexual freedom people have within the established within the establishment and
> > >> 43:28
> > >> without being punished by the establishment the easier they are to
> > >> 43:33
> > >> guide the easier they are to manipulate now please don't misunderstand me I will
> > >> 43:38
> > >> be the last to condemn this liberation and sexual morality let me ask you a
> > >> 43:45
> > >> question historically uh maybe you can answer you don't want to or can't answer this but and this I thought of this one John
> > >> 43:53
> > >> brought up the question of the web llama use of a revolution that changes in our
> > >> 43:58
> > >> sexual mores in addition we find certain tendencies taking place in art and
> > >> 44:04
> > >> literature and also in the use of drugs which seem possibly to be interrelated
> > >> 44:09
> > >> here there's been a great deal of talk about another revolution the the drug
> > >> 44:15
> > >> revolution the use of consciousness expanding drugs were with mr. Timothy
> > >> 44:20
> > >> Leary and if if International Federation for internal freedom and similarly
> > >> 44:26
> > >> artists in perhaps analogous Y and in Abstract Expressionism in tendencies
> > >> 44:32
> > >> like this have have developed an art form which becomes at least to me so solipsistic that it almost ceases to
> > >> 44:38
> > >> have any relevance other than for oneself are there historical parallels
> > >> 44:43
> > >> and these kinds of developments and other social tendencies and developments and when one here is a great deal I I
> > >> 44:50
> > >> was thinking of the decline of the Roman Empire for example as being a time of libertine ism and a concern with extreme
> > >> 45:01
> > >> individuality the period following the French Revolution yes rather period following the French Revolution the
> > >> 45:08
> > >> period of Sydney liked was slightly different because there did you at a considerable degree of genuine freedom
> > >> 45:16
> > >> in these things provided you belong to deter a nest away the others didn't have it and never did have it as far as it
> > >> 45:24
> > >> dogs are concerned this is very close to my heart because again unfortunately in the universities you know we are very
> > >> 45:32
> > >> much concerned with it in this respect I'm a terrible reactionary as in many
> > >> 45:38
> > >> other aspects I think that Doc's are reprehensible and that the only case in
> > >> 45:45
> > >> which they are to be welcomed is in case of pain of insufferable physical pain in
> > >> 45:53
> > >> all other cases they cannot possibly do what these people pretend as they do
> > >> 46:01
> > >> especially not an art literature development of consciousness or these if
> > >> 46:07
> > >> any singer acts of human freedom and if they are not the development at
> > >> 46:13
> > >> attainment of human freedom they will invariably a compressor opposite over
> > >> 46:18
> > >> they are supposed to be air to accomplish namely some kind of illusionary a happiness illusory
> > >> 46:25
> > >> contentment illusory experience which again may very well become a vehicle of
> > >> 46:31
> > >> adjustment rather than the opposite but isn't the ability in a certain sense to to take drugs which can expand your
> > >> 46:38
> > >> personal individual consciousness to their greatest extent if in fact this is what they do or to work in art forms
> > >> 46:45
> > >> which which expands one one's own feelings and emotions to the utmost
> > >> 46:50
> > >> isn't this really a kind of liberation and freedom which is unparalleled in
> > >> 46:56
> > >> history well maybe it is a revelation form things for which you shouldn't be liberated because they are precisely the
> > >> 47:03
> > >> very essence of the present state of affairs and if you liberate yourself artificially form it what you actually
> > >> 47:10
> > >> do is not develop your consciousness but arrest your consciousness in other words
> > >> 47:15
> > >> this isn't so much a freedom to as a freedom from exactly you talk to the
> > >> 47:21
> > >> misuse of the term revolution would you apply the the same approbation to the
> > >> 47:30
> > >> use of the term in in the context of the civil rights movement the Negro
> > >> 47:35
> > >> revolution as well do you see this in other words as a as a sign as a factor
> > >> 47:45
> > >> for change in the Society of a significant sword feet before you mention that I let me just point out but
> > >> 47:51
> > >> I think what possibly were working toward is some is is to see whether or not there are areas in which or forces
> > >> 47:58
> > >> within the society which offer an opportunity for social change of some kind am I wrong John no yeah that's
> > >> 48:03
> > >> right yes it is certainly this movement certainly is a movement towards social
> > >> 48:10
> > >> change I would not call it a revolution because
> > >> 48:15
> > >> I personally cannot understand how you can call a revolution a movement which
> > >> 48:23
> > >> tries to implement the principles of the Declaration of Independence I mean as a
> > >> 48:30
> > >> mere fact that we have to have such a movement today almost 200 years after
> > >> 48:37
> > >> the Declaration of Independence I think characterizes our society sufficiently
> > >> 48:43
> > >> it is not a revolution it will see a effort to finally to translate into
> > >> 48:52
> > >> reality and what was promised a centuries ago the promise was which
> > >> 48:58
> > >> actually modern society began and which is still not translated into reality
> > >> 49:04
> > >> see right mills dealt with two other groups within the society namely the
> > >> 49:09
> > >> labor movement and the intellectuals would you apply the same criticism to
> > >> 49:15
> > >> both of these groups you want to deal with them in turn I did not apply any criticism as far as I remember to the
> > >> 49:22
> > >> civil rights movement into the Negro movement as far as far as a lady I
> > >> 49:27
> > >> didn't mean criticism had sense but an estimate of every yes as far as labor
> > >> 49:34
> > >> movement is concerned or I can say is that at present organized labor in the
> > >> 49:41
> > >> United States and not only in the United States has nothing to do anymore of this
> > >> 49:46
> > >> and what Marx wants court as a polity reott and the develop a consciousness
> > >> 49:54
> > >> and see revolutionary potential off as apologia
> > >> 49:59
> > >> organized labor has today become one of the countervailing powers their
> > >> 50:05
> > >> cooperating wizards counter countervailing power in the strengthening and improvement of the
> > >> 50:12
> > >> powers that be again I certainly do not
> > >> 50:18
> > >> say that in any way as a kind of accusation or indictment only in order
> > >> 50:23
> > >> to characterize as the difference between the present state of affairs and the julep to 19th
> > >> 50:31
> > >> century and in this country the turkeys would a class analysis of the society
> > >> 50:39
> > >> still have any meaning given the the widespread affluence and the repression
> > >> 50:46
> > >> of any significant consciousness of problems within the society I can't help
> > >> 50:54
> > >> it but I do believe that we still have a class Society a class Society is not
> > >> 51:00
> > >> characterized by the increasing higher standard of living of the wid classes
> > >> 51:06
> > >> what is characterized today most outspokenly characterized by the fact
> > >> 51:13
> > >> that we have one group or class which by
> > >> 51:19
> > >> virtue of its position in the social and economic process decides and determines
> > >> 51:27
> > >> the fate of the entire population and that the majority of the population
> > >> 51:33
> > >> again by virtue of they are positioned in the social and economic process is
> > >> 51:41
> > >> really not in any way self determinating
> > >> 51:46
> > >> in speaking of classes let me only first bring up something else when you speak of of social change and how it takes
> > >> 51:52
> > >> place and I'll quote here you say first which we've already said the choice is
> > >> 51:58
> > >> primarily but only primarily the privilege of those groups which have attained control over the productive
> > >> 52:03
> > >> processes their control projects the way of life for the whole and the ensuing and enslaving necessity is the result of
> > >> 52:10
> > >> their freedom then you say and the possible abolition of this necessity pens on a new ingression of freedom not
> > >> 52:16
> > >> any freedom but that of men who comprehend the given necessity as insufferable pain and as unnecessary so
> > >> 52:23
> > >> that here you set up with your criteria of social change a group which is I
> > >> 52:29
> > >> would say from this almost totally excluded from benefit to the society and you make this clear as you said earlier
> > >> 52:35
> > >> in terms of labor movement and you also make it clear when you speak of of the people in general and their ability to
> > >> 52:41
> > >> change the situation where you argue that in the redistribution of wealth and
> > >> 52:47
> > >> equalization of classes there is simply a new stratification characteristic of advanced industrial society and not any
> > >> 52:53
> > >> basic chance to change that method of stratification and ratification but then
> > >> 53:00
> > >> you close your book and this is only the last half page out of 257 it's true when
> > >> 53:06
> > >> you say however underneath the conservative popular base is the substratum of the outcasts and Outsiders
> > >> 53:13
> > >> the exploited and persecuted of other races and colors the unemployed and unemployable they exist outside the
> > >> 53:19
> > >> democratic process they're their life
> > >> 53:26
> > >> their life is the most immediate in the most real need for ending intolerable conditions and institutions thus their
> > >> 53:32
> > >> opposition is revolutionary even if their consciousness is not the fact that they start refusing to play the game
> > >> 53:38
> > >> maybe the fact which marks the beginning of the end of the period now is the fact
> > >> 53:44
> > >> that you spend only a half-page in this in any a sense characteristic of your evaluation of the possibility of this
> > >> 53:49
> > >> tendency only partly characteristic the other part is that as I say only the
> > >> 53:56
> > >> beginnings that may mark easy beginnings these group still are too powerless to
> > >> 54:04
> > >> accomplish a change by themselves what I would like to add here that if I speak
> > >> 54:11
> > >> of the ingestion of a new freedom motivated by the awareness of
> > >> 54:18
> > >> intolerable the conditions that does not necessarily and exclusively me and
> > >> 54:24
> > >> abject poverty and misery I for example
> > >> 54:29
> > >> can very well envisage conditions under which the social groups which are not
> > >> 54:37
> > >> prefer which are not a little in a live which do not live in misery become aware
> > >> 54:42
> > >> of the insanity of a society in which
> > >> 54:47
> > >> they have to continue in which their to continue alienated
> > >> 54:52
> > >> labor continual performances which they actually hate continue the struggle for
> > >> 55:01
> > >> existence which has become more and more a trace in the face of as impossible
> > >> 55:09
> > >> abolition of loyalties and that this awareness may well spread and become one
> > >> 55:15
> > >> of those potentially changing forces there currently are a number of programs
> > >> 55:20
> > >> taking place throughout the country and of course the one that have gotten the most press recently of the Appalachians for Appalachia but also here in New York
> > >> 55:28
> > >> City and elsewhere in Oakland California there have been a number of programs in which an enormous amount of money is
> > >> 55:34
> > >> being spent in extremely small locations and an attempt to take this particular group of the population and somehow
> > >> 55:40
> > >> integrate them into the society and I'm thinking of a project like the one going on in Harlem which is going to in which
> > >> 55:46
> > >> eighty million dollars is going to be invested or one on the Lower East Side which I believe has been allocated 120
> > >> 55:51
> > >> million dollars and as I understand it much of this money has come from extremely sophisticated extremely
> > >> 55:57
> > >> sophisticated area of the leadership of the nation do you think that these kinds
> > >> 56:02
> > >> of programs or any kind of program will be able to reduce the number of those who are unemployed and unemployable in
> > >> 56:09
> > >> other words which way do you see this tendency going do you see this this potentially revolutionary group increasing report or decreasing that is
> > >> 56:19
> > >> very hard to say because it depends entirely on the national and
> > >> 56:24
> > >> international situation as to the project you mentioned naturally any and
> > >> 56:30
> > >> every project that produces even in a small area misery and poverty and dirt
> > >> 56:38
> > >> is good and should be supported but
> > >> 56:43
> > >> without illusions that they do not have the key for the decisive change and it
> > >> 56:51
> > >> seems to be a clear because this is not a local Messiah but a fire that not only
> > >> 56:58
> > >> concerns the nation as a whole about a soup national core to John normal well let me
> > >> 57:06
> > >> ask one final question what do you see and I think in a sense you've answered this what do you see the role of of
> > >> 57:12
> > >> scholars and intellectuals to be given this particular state of society where
> > >> 57:19
> > >> there doesn't seem to be at least if your analysis is correct much concrete action that can be done at this point
> > >> 57:26
> > >> and indeed I'd say your analysis is a rather pessimistic one yes it is a
> > >> 57:31
> > >> pessimistic one and precisely in this situation as the intellectual the scholar perhaps has a more responsible
> > >> 57:40
> > >> or than he ever had before because it is his task today against all a apparent or
> > >> 57:49
> > >> real success to preserve or rather to
> > >> 57:56
> > >> develop those concepts those ideas those
> > >> 58:01
> > >> aspirations which do not succumb to the oil or the seeming benefits of any
> > >> 58:10
> > >> presence aasaiya t but which concepts and modes of thought which remain loyal
> > >> 58:17
> > >> to the essentially o it hopes and aspirations of mankind for a society in
> > >> 58:25
> > >> which as a struggle for existence as a deed pacified this is today and more
> > >> 58:31
> > >> than ever before a real possibility and the entire power and the entire wealth
> > >> 58:37
> > >> of our society is at present directed against this possibility precisely
> > >> 58:44
> > >> because it is over here so in this situation discolor and the intellectual has one of the most decisive tasks thank
> > >> 58:53
> > >> you very much we've been talking to dr. Herbert mark who's a professor of philosophy at Brandeis University and
> > >> 58:58
> > >> author of a recent for one-dimensional man published by beacon press and John Fannin an editor of a New York
> > >> 59:05
> > >> publishing house
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> *****************************************
> > > thanks GZ
> > Good morning, Jordy, interesting selection.
> Shalom Will, thank you