On Fri, 14 May 2021 11:27:08 -0700 (PDT), Jack Bohn
<jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:

>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <slrns9tc7p...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>> >On 2021-05-14, Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I fear that if they do a decent job with it, it may be deemed "too
>> >cerebral for its timeslot."
>> >
>> >It's going to be on Apple TV+.
>> >
>> Care to elaborate on that? Does Apple TV mean it might be good,
>> or that it's doomed to be dreadful?
>
>I take it (and forgive me if I'm wrong) as merely citing the specifics in correcting me.
>I may be being corrected in the literal sense of it being on-demand and not in any specific time slot,
>or in the broader sense of it not being a broadcast, but more narrowcast, and aimed at a common denominator that doesn't have to be the lowest.
>I don't know as any streaming service can be said to be different in quality, but Apple TV is currently home to "For All Mankind" an alt-hist in which the Russians reach the Moon first, by the historical difference that they reached the Moon first. (I was going to blame the proverbial alien space bats deciding it so, but didn't want to be mistakenly taken literally.)
>
>For "Foundation," I am fearing a translation of the broad predictability of the trends of a large population will be translated to the iron control of Fate, and a personal Destiny each character will fulfill.

Started watching "For All Mankind". So far it seems way too caught up
in political trendiness. Two episodes in there's the ritual
demonization of von Braun and the start of some subplot involving
wetbacks (yes, they are definitely wetbacks--we see them cross the
river).

On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>>
>>
>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>
> Star
> Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.

News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?

Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:

Evidence that Palpatine's Empire resembles the Roman Empire:

--
Michael F. Stemper
Isaiah 10:1-2

On Saturday, 15 May 2021 at 21:45:51 UTC+1, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
> > On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> >> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
> >>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
> >>>
> >>
> >> A couple of thoughts on the article:
> >> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
> >> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
> >
> > Star
> > Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>
> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
>
>
>
>
> Evidence that Palpatine's Empire resembles the Roman Empire:

I think David meant to say that _Star Wars_ portrays a
crumbled Republic overtaken by a ruling Emperor.
That's Roman, all right. In the prequels, we see the
Republic falling, engineered by the Sith: that looks
like psychohistorical plotting. And the Emperor
gets to be top psycho.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 15:01:12 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, 15 May 2021 at 21:45:51 UTC+1, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
>> > On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> >> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>> >>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>> >> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>> >> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>> >
>> > Star
>> > Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
>> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>>
>> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Evidence that Palpatine's Empire resembles the Roman Empire:
>
>I think David meant to say that _Star Wars_ portrays a
>crumbled Republic overtaken by a ruling Emperor.
>That's Roman, all right. In the prequels, we see the
>Republic falling, engineered by the Sith: that looks
>like psychohistorical plotting. And the Emperor
>gets to be top psycho.

I suspect you are correct.

In which case, he should have been more precise.

Making stabs at a topic with something that is only approximately
correct can work, but doesn't very often.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>>>
>>>
>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>>
>>   Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
>
> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>
> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:

TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.

LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
slip through your fingers.

>
>
>
>
> Evidence that Palpatine's Empire resembles the Roman Empire:

It has an emperor using a enfeebled senate to help boost his legitimacy,
and it's a successor state to a republic that used to be headed by that
senate.

In <22a9d4db-fb4e-4970-a891-6fbe54941171n@googlegroups.com> Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> writes:

>I don't know as any streaming service can be said to be different in qualit=
>y, but Apple TV is currently home to "For All Mankind" an alt-hist in which=
> the Russians reach the Moon first, by the historical difference that they =
>reached the Moon first. (I was going to blame the proverbial alien space b=
>ats deciding it so, but didn't want to be mistakenly taken literally.)

I lack Apple TV, so have never seen the series. I do remember
reading one of Dwayne Day's reviews of the series at The Space Review
(thespacereview.com) that at least one of the differences in that
timeline is that Sergei Korolev survived until at least 1969. This is
not by itself a sufficient explanation, but it is a starting point for
a plausible timeline.

--
Joseph Nebus
Math Blog: https://nebusresearch.wordpress.com
Humor Blog: https://nebushumor.wordpress.com
--------------------------------------------------------+---------------------

In <0c8221ef-3221-4433-82fa-32361efa82afn@googlegroups.com> Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> writes:

>Several plots end with a promise from the Federation
>to steer the broken planet of the week (if Prime Directive
>doesn't apply) onto a better track, which sounds like
>practising psychohistory. The novel _Prime Directive_
>says more about how to study a culture,
><https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Seldon_Institute_of_Psychohistory>
>apparently was brought in in novel _Spectre_ to study
>the political evolution of the Mirror Universe (I think Kirk
>and anti-Spock already agreed on screen that the Empire
>would not last long, and it didn't), [ ... ]

More; in _Mirror, Mirror_, the Halkans make a prediction that
there'll be universal revolt and overthrow of the Empire, which
Mirror Spock forecasts as being in about 240 years, with an inevitable
outcome of the Empire's overthrow. That's a heck of a forecast if the
Halkans *and* Mirror Spock don't have psychohistorical techniques.

But then the weirdness is that these forecasts are made not
just in the Mirror Universe but also off-screen, possibly because Kirk
was working off an earlier draft of the script and didn't know this
predictation was cut.

So, fun observation from that episode: there's a bit where you
see the Mirror Halkan chancellor, and he's got black eyes. Which made
me start to joke, oh, so the Empire is just sending Evil Kirk around to
planets with problems and punch their leaders until they stop being
problems anymore? ... And then I realized, oh, that's pretty much what
the Federation does with Good Kirk anyway.

--
Joseph Nebus
Math Blog: https://nebusresearch.wordpress.com
Humor Blog: https://nebushumor.wordpress.com
--------------------------------------------------------+---------------------

On Mon, 17 May 2021 04:42:01 +0000 (UTC), nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph
Nebus) wrote:

>In <22a9d4db-fb4e-4970-a891-6fbe54941171n@googlegroups.com> Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>I don't know as any streaming service can be said to be different in qualit=
>>y, but Apple TV is currently home to "For All Mankind" an alt-hist in which=
>> the Russians reach the Moon first, by the historical difference that they =
>>reached the Moon first. (I was going to blame the proverbial alien space b=
>>ats deciding it so, but didn't want to be mistakenly taken literally.)
>
> I lack Apple TV, so have never seen the series. I do remember
>reading one of Dwayne Day's reviews of the series at The Space Review
>(thespacereview.com) that at least one of the differences in that
>timeline is that Sergei Korolev survived until at least 1969. This is
>not by itself a sufficient explanation, but it is a starting point for
>a plausible timeline.

You can watch it in a web browser. There's a 7 day free trial which
is long enough to binge the series. After that it's $4.95 a month.

The big difference was that the Russians got N-1 to work and got there
first, and then pulled a replay of their orbital flights with the
second having a woman on the Moon. They work in other details--Ted
Kennedy had to got to a meeting related to the space program one
weekend so didn't go to a party in Chappaquiddick so didn't flush his
career for example.

I still don't like they way they handled von Braun but the wetback
kid's growing on me.

On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>>>
>>>   Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
>>
>> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>>
>> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
>
> TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
> guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
> star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
>
> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
> slip through your fingers.

Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.

>> Evidence that Palpatine's Empire resembles the Roman Empire:
>
> It has an emperor using a enfeebled senate to help boost his legitimacy,
> and it's a successor state to a republic that used to be headed by that
> senate.

I'll give you that one.

However, that isn't something that was shown in any of Asimov's
Foundation stories, so unlikely to have been inspired by them. In
fact, as far back as _Pebble in the Sky_, there was an Emperor.
That's over 11,000 years.

It's possible that they had a common source, but a little digging shows
me that Gibbon's work began in 92 AD, which was well past 44 BC, when
Julius Caesar became perpetual dictator. He is the Palpatine analog
(assuming that there is one).

Something that occurred to me over the weekend: the underlying theme
of the Foundation works is that the actions of individuals don't
matter; it's the (psycho-)historical forces that move events.

_Star Wars_ completely inverts this. It's basically the efforts of
a single person, Luke, that lead to the overthrow of the Empire and
the soi-disant restoration of the Republic.

I'm mindful of the last chapter of "The General", in which Ducem Barr
says:
"You were wrong, however, in thinking that this internal split
was something to be brought about by individual acts, by
inspirations of the moment. [...]"
"And through all this threshing up of tiny ripples, the Seldon
tidal wave continued onward, quietly--but quite irresistibly."

Compare this to the end of _The Return of the Jedi_. The Empire has
set up an ambush, with overwhelming odds, of the Republic's fleet.
The Emperor's reason for this isn't even to wipe out the fleet; it's
to cause so much anger in Luke that he is turned to the Dark Side.
The only reason it fails is that Vader, in a moment that echoes the
eucatastrophe in Mount Doom, rebels against the Emperor.

Everything here hinges on individual acts.

--
Michael F. Stemper
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him talk like Mr. Ed
by rubbing peanut butter on his gums.

In article <s7tqms$sj4$1@dont-email.me>,
Michael F. Stemper <mstemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
>> On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>
>https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>>>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>>>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>>>>
>>>>   Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
>>>
>>> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>>>
>>> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
>>
>> TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
>> guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
>> star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
>>
>> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
>> slip through your fingers.
>
>Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
>Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.
>

http://columbiaclosings.com/pix/21/05/scam.jpg
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 17/05/2021 08.38, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <s7tqms$sj4$1@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <mstemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
>>>
>>> TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
>>> guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
>>> star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
>>>
>>> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
>>> slip through your fingers.
>>
>> Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
>> Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.
>>
>
> http://columbiaclosings.com/pix/21/05/scam.jpg

Heh.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Exodus 22:21

In article <s7tqms$sj4$1@dont-email.me>,
Michael F. Stemper <mstemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
>> On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>
>https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>>>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>>>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>>>>
>>>>   Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
>>>
>>> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>>>
>>> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
>>
>> TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
>> guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
>> star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
>>
>> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
>> slip through your fingers.
>
>Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
>Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.
>
So Freeman Dyson had an observation about government projects, which
was (iirc) that if a government was offered a choice between a series
of small scale efforts with a high likelihood of producing modest gains
or one huge project that had good chance of not working but would be
high status if it did, they will generally choose the second. See,
for example, how the Webb telescope hoovered up funds. The Death
Star has all the ear-marks of a grandeous scheme whose net effect
may have been the Imperial Navy has a lot fewer Star Destroyers
and fighters than it might have had.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 2021-05-17 7:22 a.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
>> On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>>>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>>>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>>>>
>>>>   Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
>>>
>>> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>>>
>>> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
>>
>> TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
>> guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
>> star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
>>
>> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems
>> will slip through your fingers.
>
> Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
> Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.

Except that staking all their chips on that bet and losing the bet only
increased the process she described.

>
>>> Evidence that Palpatine's Empire resembles the Roman Empire:
>>
>> It has an emperor using a enfeebled senate to help boost his
>> legitimacy, and it's a successor state to a republic that used to be
>> headed by that senate.
>
> I'll give you that one.
>
> However, that isn't something that was shown in any of Asimov's
> Foundation stories, so unlikely to have been inspired by them.

Probably wasn't. Was inspired by Dune which also had Romanesque
Galactic Empire. It's only the introduction of Coruscant that brings the
Foundation into play.

On Mon, 17 May 2021 14:01:02 +0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

>In article <s7tqms$sj4$1@dont-email.me>,
>Michael F. Stemper <mstemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>>>>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>>>>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
>>>>
>>>> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>>>>
>>>> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
>>>
>>> TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
>>> guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
>>> star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
>>>
>>> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
>>> slip through your fingers.
>>
>>Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
>>Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.
>>
>So Freeman Dyson had an observation about government projects, which
>was (iirc) that if a government was offered a choice between a series
>of small scale efforts with a high likelihood of producing modest gains
>or one huge project that had good chance of not working but would be
>high status if it did, they will generally choose the second. See,
>for example, how the Webb telescope hoovered up funds. The Death
>Star has all the ear-marks of a grandeous scheme whose net effect
>may have been the Imperial Navy has a lot fewer Star Destroyers
>and fighters than it might have had.

IIRC, the reason O'Brien was stuck using costumed lizards as dinosaurs
in his second go at /The Lost World/ was because DeMille's /Cleopatra/
was hoovering up all available funds, and was expected to make a lot
more money for the studio.

So not just gummints. Movie studios can fall for that one as well.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

In article <0g85agp8ifs7ve6k3gs694cnc2aktfl7u2@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Mon, 17 May 2021 14:01:02 +0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
>Nicoll) wrote:
>
>>In article <s7tqms$sj4$1@dont-email.me>,
>>Michael F. Stemper <mstemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>>>>>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>>>>>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
>>>>>
>>>>> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>>>>>
>>>>> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
>>>>
>>>> TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
>>>> guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
>>>> star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
>>>>
>>>> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
>>>> slip through your fingers.
>>>
>>>Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
>>>Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.
>>>
>>So Freeman Dyson had an observation about government projects, which
>>was (iirc) that if a government was offered a choice between a series
>>of small scale efforts with a high likelihood of producing modest gains
>>or one huge project that had good chance of not working but would be
>>high status if it did, they will generally choose the second. See,
>>for example, how the Webb telescope hoovered up funds. The Death
>>Star has all the ear-marks of a grandeous scheme whose net effect
>>may have been the Imperial Navy has a lot fewer Star Destroyers
>>and fighters than it might have had.
>
>IIRC, the reason O'Brien was stuck using costumed lizards as dinosaurs
>in his second go at /The Lost World/ was because DeMille's /Cleopatra/
>was hoovering up all available funds, and was expected to make a lot
>more money for the studio.
>
>So not just gummints. Movie studios can fall for that one as well.

See also Heaven's Gate, which was very good at hoovering up funds and
not so good at producing profits. FINAL CUT provides the perspective
of one of the execs involved in the fiasco.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

In article <s7ubrf$s57$1@reader1.panix.com>,
James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <0g85agp8ifs7ve6k3gs694cnc2aktfl7u2@4ax.com>,
>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>On Mon, 17 May 2021 14:01:02 +0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
>>Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <s7tqms$sj4$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>Michael F. Stemper <mstemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>>> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>>>>>>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>>>>>>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
>>>>>
>>>>> TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
>>>>> guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
>>>>> star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
>>>>>
>>>>> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
>>>>> slip through your fingers.
>>>>
>>>>Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
>>>>Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.
>>>>
>>>So Freeman Dyson had an observation about government projects, which
>>>was (iirc) that if a government was offered a choice between a series
>>>of small scale efforts with a high likelihood of producing modest gains
>>>or one huge project that had good chance of not working but would be
>>>high status if it did, they will generally choose the second. See,
>>>for example, how the Webb telescope hoovered up funds. The Death
>>>Star has all the ear-marks of a grandeous scheme whose net effect
>>>may have been the Imperial Navy has a lot fewer Star Destroyers
>>>and fighters than it might have had.
>>
>>IIRC, the reason O'Brien was stuck using costumed lizards as dinosaurs
>>in his second go at /The Lost World/ was because DeMille's /Cleopatra/
>>was hoovering up all available funds, and was expected to make a lot
>>more money for the studio.
>>
>>So not just gummints. Movie studios can fall for that one as well.
>
>See also Heaven's Gate, which was very good at hoovering up funds and
>not so good at producing profits. FINAL CUT provides the perspective
>of one of the execs involved in the fiasco.

On the other hand, part of Damnation Alley's problems were due to
about a quarter of the production budget being reallocated to something
called Star Wars, which in retrospect was probably the right call.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 17/05/2021 09.01, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <s7tqms$sj4$1@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <mstemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:

>>> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
>>> slip through your fingers.
>>
>> Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
>> Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.
>>
> So Freeman Dyson had an observation about government projects, which
> was (iirc) that if a government was offered a choice between a series
> of small scale efforts with a high likelihood of producing modest gains
> or one huge project that had good chance of not working but would be
> high status if it did, they will generally choose the second.

That sounds quite likely to be true.

> The Death
> Star has all the ear-marks of a grandeous scheme whose net effect
> may have been the Imperial Navy has a lot fewer Star Destroyers
> and fighters than it might have had.

I'll grant that, but the possibility that the Death Star was a poor
idea is no indicator that the Empire was weak.

--
Michael F. Stemper
If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much
more like prunes than rhubarb does.

begin fnord
"Michael F. Stemper" <mstemper@gmail.com> writes:

> I'll grant that, but the possibility that the Death Star was a poor
> idea is no indicator that the Empire was weak.

Not to mention, Palpatine probably has an entirely different set of
goals than Augustus, or Brother Day, or Strephon Aella Alkhalikoi.

--
Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:23:00 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> > On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
> >> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> >>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >
> >>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
> >>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
> >>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
> >>
> >> Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
> >
> > News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
> >
> > Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
> TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
> guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
> star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
>
> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
> slip through your fingers.

That is very much like Foundation, not like Rome. While the empire was from time to time divided by succession disputes, bits of it didn't escape, but were cut off by foreign invasion.

> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Evidence that Palpatine's Empire resembles the Roman Empire:
> It has an emperor using a enfeebled senate to help boost his legitimacy,
> and it's a successor state to a republic that used to be headed by that
> senate.

Very much like Rome indeed.

William Hyde

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 10:01:05 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <s7tqms$sj4$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <mste...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
> >> On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> >>> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
> >>>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> >>>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>>
> >https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
> >>>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
> >>>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
> >>>>
> >>>> Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
> >>>
> >>> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
> >>>
> >>> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
> >>
> >> TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
> >> guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
> >> star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
> >>
> >> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
> >> slip through your fingers.
> >
> >Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
> >Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.
> >
> So Freeman Dyson had an observation about government projects, which
> was (iirc) that if a government was offered a choice between a series
> of small scale efforts with a high likelihood of producing modest gains
> or one huge project that had good chance of not working but would be
> high status if it did, they will generally choose the second. See,
> for example, how the Webb telescope hoovered up funds.

NASA seemed to back off of that method, for a while, in the "better cheaper faster" era. Even so, the
cheap and hugely successful Tropical Rainfall Measuring Mission took a long time to be launched, and even then it was launched by the Japanese (which meant a slightly less favourable orbit as the Japanese insisted that it overfly their territory at some point).

The Death
> Star has all the ear-marks of a grandeous scheme whose net effect
> may have been the Imperial Navy has a lot fewer Star Destroyers
> and fighters than it might have had.

Clarke quotes someone to the effect that each V2 used up the resources that could make three or more fighters. He speculates that this may have hastened the end of the war in Europe, and spared Stuttgart an atomic bombing.

William Hyde

On 5/17/2021 8:38 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <s7tqms$sj4$1@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <mstemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>>>>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>>>>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
>>>>
>>>> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>>>>
>>>> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
>>>
>>> TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
>>> guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
>>> star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
>>>
>>> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
>>> slip through your fingers.
>>
>> Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
>> Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.
>>
>
> http://columbiaclosings.com/pix/21/05/scam.jpg

That is hilarious.

Lynn

On 5/17/2021 8:38 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <s7tqms$sj4$1@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <mstemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>>>>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>>>>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
>>>>
>>>> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>>>>
>>>> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
>>>
>>> TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
>>> guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
>>> star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
>>>
>>> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
>>> slip through your fingers.
>>
>> Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
>> Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.
>>
>
> http://columbiaclosings.com/pix/21/05/scam.jpg

What happened to all of the independent contractors working on Death
Star II ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb8MVKihBDU

Lynn

On 5/17/2021 8:38 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <s7tqms$sj4$1@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <mstemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>>>>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>>>>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
>>>>
>>>> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>>>>
>>>> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
>>>
>>> TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
>>> guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
>>> star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
>>>
>>> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
>>> slip through your fingers.
>>
>> Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
>> Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.
>>
>
> http://columbiaclosings.com/pix/21/05/scam.jpg

The Death Star conspiracy – was it an Inside Job?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEPazLTGceI

Lynn

On Mon, 17 May 2021 18:16:41 +0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

>In article <s7ubrf$s57$1@reader1.panix.com>,
>James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>>In article <0g85agp8ifs7ve6k3gs694cnc2aktfl7u2@4ax.com>,
>>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>On Mon, 17 May 2021 14:01:02 +0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
>>>Nicoll) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <s7tqms$sj4$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>Michael F. Stemper <mstemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>>>> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>>>>>>>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>>>>>>>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
>>>>>> guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
>>>>>> star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
>>>>>> slip through your fingers.
>>>>>
>>>>>Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
>>>>>Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.
>>>>>
>>>>So Freeman Dyson had an observation about government projects, which
>>>>was (iirc) that if a government was offered a choice between a series
>>>>of small scale efforts with a high likelihood of producing modest gains
>>>>or one huge project that had good chance of not working but would be
>>>>high status if it did, they will generally choose the second. See,
>>>>for example, how the Webb telescope hoovered up funds. The Death
>>>>Star has all the ear-marks of a grandeous scheme whose net effect
>>>>may have been the Imperial Navy has a lot fewer Star Destroyers
>>>>and fighters than it might have had.
>>>
>>>IIRC, the reason O'Brien was stuck using costumed lizards as dinosaurs
>>>in his second go at /The Lost World/ was because DeMille's /Cleopatra/
>>>was hoovering up all available funds, and was expected to make a lot
>>>more money for the studio.
>>>
>>>So not just gummints. Movie studios can fall for that one as well.
>>
>>See also Heaven's Gate, which was very good at hoovering up funds and
>>not so good at producing profits. FINAL CUT provides the perspective
>>of one of the execs involved in the fiasco.
>
>On the other hand, part of Damnation Alley's problems were due to
>about a quarter of the production budget being reallocated to something
>called Star Wars, which in retrospect was probably the right call.

If they had stuck closer to the story they wouldn't have needed nearly
as much in the way of effects. But that would have required that they
use the word "Hell" repeatedly so that was right out.

On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 12:24:38 PM UTC+10, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 17 May 2021 18:16:41 +0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
> Nicoll) wrote:

<snip>

> >
> >On the other hand, part of Damnation Alley's problems were due to
> >about a quarter of the production budget being reallocated to something
> >called Star Wars, which in retrospect was probably the right call.
>
> If they had stuck closer to the story they wouldn't have needed nearly
> as much in the way of effects. But that would have required that they
> use the word "Hell" repeatedly so that was right out.

Gawd, I'd almost forgotten that movie. "Tanner! This entire city is infested with killer cockroaches. I repeat: KILLER COCKROACHES!"

Even as a kid, I knew that was baaaaaaad.

-Moriarty