In article <r19AKr.5BK@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <616f2339.372636593@news.eternal-september.org>,
>Bice <eichler2@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>>On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
>>Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <616eaecc.342831765@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>Bice <eichler2@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>>>>On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
>>>><davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
>>>>>> the "diversity is good" message.
>>>>>
>>>>>What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
>>>>
>>>>OK, two people have called me out on this.
>>>>
>>>>The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
>>>>the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
>>>>the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
>>>>for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
>>>>made the message any clearer.
>>>
>>>They don't say white guy.
>>
>>To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he did
>>specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to Emperors was
>>part of the reason the empire was crumbling. Which was just one of
>>many times the script writers made the point that diversity is good.
>>
>I'm reminded of the Hapsburgs, particularly the Spanish branch of
>the family. Google Charles II of Spain sometime. Wikipedia has
>a picture of him. The whole family needed diversity in the worst
>way, and they didn't get it.
>
I called them the pugs of Europe....

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 03:19:39 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>I'm reminded of the Hapsburgs, particularly the Spanish branch of
>the family. Google Charles II of Spain sometime. Wikipedia has
>a picture of him. The whole family needed diversity in the worst
>way, and they didn't get it.

I think you're talking inbreeding which is a danger the British
monarchy has mostly avoided. Besides Prince Philip who for all intents
and purposes was a Brit anyhow when was the last time you had a royal
consort from one of the royal houses of Europe? This was one of the
reasons the Crown Prince of Monaco was particularly happy to land
Grace Kelly - she was a hot Hollywood actor who came with zero risk of
inbreeding.

Even in Russia Prince Alexei's hemophila had nothing to do with
inbreeding and everything to do with a mutant (Queen Victoria herself
apparently) who had a large family.

(Incidentally hemophilia is a sex linked disease meaning every
daughter of a carrier has a 50% chance of carrying the disease. In the
last 10 years genetic studies have been done of each of Tsarevich
Alexei's sisters remains and found only one carried the gene and
ironically she was the one who had expressed a wish to have a large
family - though obviously the Bolsheviks didn't give her the chance
to)

In article <it9hbaF6q84U1@mid.individual.net>,
Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>In article <r19AKr.5BK@kithrup.com>,
>Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <616f2339.372636593@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>Bice <eichler2@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>>>On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
>>>Nicoll) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <616eaecc.342831765@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>>Bice <eichler2@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>>>>>On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
>>>>><davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
>>>>>>> the "diversity is good" message.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
>>>>>
>>>>>OK, two people have called me out on this.
>>>>>
>>>>>The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
>>>>>the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
>>>>>the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
>>>>>for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
>>>>>made the message any clearer.
>>>>
>>>>They don't say white guy.
>>>
>>>To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he did
>>>specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to Emperors was
>>>part of the reason the empire was crumbling. Which was just one of
>>>many times the script writers made the point that diversity is good.
>>>
>>I'm reminded of the Hapsburgs, particularly the Spanish branch of
>>the family. Google Charles II of Spain sometime. Wikipedia has
>>a picture of him. The whole family needed diversity in the worst
>>way, and they didn't get it.
>>
>
>The longer you reign, diverse it gets..

....ouch....

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <tjdvmg1o0e2481julbc3v10ejaguje9cvn@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 03:19:39 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>I'm reminded of the Hapsburgs, particularly the Spanish branch of
>>the family. Google Charles II of Spain sometime. Wikipedia has
>>a picture of him. The whole family needed diversity in the worst
>>way, and they didn't get it.
>
>I think you're talking inbreeding which is a danger the British
>monarchy has mostly avoided. Besides Prince Philip who for all intents
>and purposes was a Brit anyhow when was the last time you had a royal
>consort from one of the royal houses of Europe? This was one of the
>reasons the Crown Prince of Monaco was particularly happy to land
>Grace Kelly - she was a hot Hollywood actor who came with zero risk of
>inbreeding.
>
>Even in Russia Prince Alexei's hemophila had nothing to do with
>inbreeding and everything to do with a mutant (Queen Victoria herself
>apparently) who had a large family.
>
>(Incidentally hemophilia is a sex linked disease meaning every
>daughter of a carrier has a 50% chance of carrying the disease. In the
>last 10 years genetic studies have been done of each of Tsarevich
>Alexei's sisters remains and found only one carried the gene and
>ironically she was the one who had expressed a wish to have a large
>family - though obviously the Bolsheviks didn't give her the chance
>to)

Right.

(He was actually the reigning Prince, IIRC. They married in the
early 1950s and it was all over the papers.)

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 03:19:39 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> Heydt) wrote:
>
> >I'm reminded of the Hapsburgs, particularly the Spanish branch of
> >the family. Google Charles II of Spain sometime. Wikipedia has
> >a picture of him. The whole family needed diversity in the worst
> >way, and they didn't get it.
> I think you're talking inbreeding which is a danger the British
> monarchy has mostly avoided. Besides Prince Philip who for all intents
> and purposes was a Brit anyhow when was the last time you had a royal
> consort from one of the royal houses of Europe? This was one of the
> reasons the Crown Prince of Monaco was particularly happy to land
> Grace Kelly - she was a hot Hollywood actor who came with zero risk of
> inbreeding.
>
> Even in Russia Prince Alexei's hemophila had nothing to do with
> inbreeding and everything to do with a mutant (Queen Victoria herself
> apparently) who had a large family.

Ha! I was looking for a joke about getting genetic diversity "in the worst way,"
I guess marrying a mutant would be it!

Of course, the secret is culling the defectives, but, no, a royal baby is born,
especially a son, and everyone is all, "Awww, don't kill it!"
That's the reason The People cannot be trusted with an aristocracy.

--
-Jack

On 19 Oct 2021 at 21:02:29 BST, "Bice" <Bice> wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
> Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> In article <616eaecc.342831765@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> Bice <eichler2@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
>>> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>>>
>>>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
>>>>> the "diversity is good" message.
>>>>
>>>> What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
>>>
>>> OK, two people have called me out on this.
>>>
>>> The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
>>> the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
>>> the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
>>> for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
>>> made the message any clearer.
>>
>> They don't say white guy.
>
> To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he did
> specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to Emperors was
> part of the reason the empire was crumbling.

And you didn't think "Oh, yes, identical clones trained identically is
indeed not a very diverse set of emperors"? Wow.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"People can be educated beyond their intelligence"
-- Marilyn vos Savant

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
news:tcnumghrgvro58ha4ukopunkrc212g50oi@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:47:00 GMT, eichler2@comcastsucks.net
> (Bice) wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
>><davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>>
>>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to
>>>> further the "diversity is good" message.
>>>
>>>What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
>>
>>OK, two people have called me out on this.
>>
>>The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought
>>before the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part
>>of the reason the empire is failing is because it's been run by
>>the same white guy for centuries instead of incorporating
>>diversity. They couldn't have made the message any clearer.
>
> I think if it had been run by the same black, brown, yellow,
> red, green, blue, or purple with pink polka-dots guy, gal, or
> whatever you call an organism that reproduces by fission you'd
> get the same result.
>
But you wouldn't specifically point out that they're black, brown
yellow, red green or blue.

And you *know* I'm right.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

In article <5466dbe9-41a5-44bb-bc76-aaca8db17f2fn@googlegroups.com>,
Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:
>The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 03:19:39 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>> Heydt) wrote:
>>
>> >I'm reminded of the Hapsburgs, particularly the Spanish branch of
>> >the family. Google Charles II of Spain sometime. Wikipedia has
>> >a picture of him. The whole family needed diversity in the worst
>> >way, and they didn't get it.
>> I think you're talking inbreeding which is a danger the British
>> monarchy has mostly avoided. Besides Prince Philip who for all intents
>> and purposes was a Brit anyhow when was the last time you had a royal
>> consort from one of the royal houses of Europe? This was one of the
>> reasons the Crown Prince of Monaco was particularly happy to land
>> Grace Kelly - she was a hot Hollywood actor who came with zero risk of
>> inbreeding.
>>
>> Even in Russia Prince Alexei's hemophila had nothing to do with
>> inbreeding and everything to do with a mutant (Queen Victoria herself
>> apparently) who had a large family.

True. One of her sons ....

(pause to google)

One of Victoria's own sons, Prince Leopold of Albany, also
inherited the bad X chromosome and died at 30, after a fall.
>
>Ha! I was looking for a joke about getting genetic diversity "in the
>worst way,"
>I guess marrying a mutant would be it!

Or being the descendant of one.
>
>Of course, the secret is culling the defectives, but, no, a royal baby is born,
>especially a son, and everyone is all, "Awww, don't kill it!"
>That's the reason The People cannot be trusted with an aristocracy.
>
And, please note, nobody needed to kill Prince Leopold. His
genes did that for him.

He married and had a daughter and a posthumous son, neither of
whom appear to have inherited the bad X chromosome.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <tjdvmg1o0e2481julbc3v10ejaguje9cvn@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 03:19:39 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> Heydt) wrote:
>
> >I'm reminded of the Hapsburgs, particularly the Spanish branch of
> >the family. Google Charles II of Spain sometime. Wikipedia has
> >a picture of him. The whole family needed diversity in the worst
> >way, and they didn't get it.
>
> I think you're talking inbreeding which is a danger the British
> monarchy has mostly avoided. Besides Prince Philip who for all intents
> and purposes was a Brit anyhow when was the last time you had a royal
> consort from one of the royal houses of Europe?

Definitely Alexandra of Denmark (queen consort for King Edward VII, thus
Elizabeth II's great-grandmother). Arguably Mary of Teck (queen consort
for King George V) whose father had a royal background.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 10:13:11 -0700, Robert Woodward
<robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

>> I think you're talking inbreeding which is a danger the British
>> monarchy has mostly avoided. Besides Prince Philip who for all intents
>> and purposes was a Brit anyhow when was the last time you had a royal
>> consort from one of the royal houses of Europe?
>
>Definitely Alexandra of Denmark (queen consort for King Edward VII, thus
>Elizabeth II's great-grandmother). Arguably Mary of Teck (queen consort
>for King George V) whose father had a royal background.
>

On Alexandra and Mary both are nearly 100 years ago. I'd say the
royals have the knowledge of why inbreeding is a bad thing worked out
and that also applies to Dutch Danes (the wife of the heir apparent is
an Aussie) Norwegians and Swedes.

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 1:11:02 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <5466dbe9-41a5-44bb...@googlegroups.com>,
> Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >The Horny Goat wrote:
> >> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 03:19:39 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> >> Heydt) wrote:
> >>
> >> >I'm reminded of the Hapsburgs, particularly the Spanish branch of
> >> >the family. Google Charles II of Spain sometime. Wikipedia has
> >> >a picture of him. The whole family needed diversity in the worst
> >> >way, and they didn't get it.
> >> I think you're talking inbreeding which is a danger the British
> >> monarchy has mostly avoided. Besides Prince Philip who for all intents
> >> and purposes was a Brit anyhow when was the last time you had a royal
> >> consort from one of the royal houses of Europe? This was one of the
> >> reasons the Crown Prince of Monaco was particularly happy to land
> >> Grace Kelly - she was a hot Hollywood actor who came with zero risk of
> >> inbreeding.
> >>
> >> Even in Russia Prince Alexei's hemophila had nothing to do with
> >> inbreeding and everything to do with a mutant (Queen Victoria herself
> >> apparently) who had a large family.
> True. One of her sons ....
>
> (pause to google)
>
> One of Victoria's own sons, Prince Leopold of Albany, also
> inherited the bad X chromosome and died at 30, after a fall.
> >
> >Ha! I was looking for a joke about getting genetic diversity "in the
> >worst way,"
> >I guess marrying a mutant would be it!
> Or being the descendant of one.
> >
> >Of course, the secret is culling the defectives, but, no, a royal baby is born,
> >especially a son, and everyone is all, "Awww, don't kill it!"
> >That's the reason The People cannot be trusted with an aristocracy.
> >
> And, please note, nobody needed to kill Prince Leopold. His
> genes did that for him.
>
> He married and had a daughter and a posthumous son, neither of
> whom appear to have inherited the bad X chromosome.

The daughter got one X from each parent, so Leopold's must have been present in her DNA.

A quick check shows that the son was indeed lucky, not having it (and hence being unable to transmit it to his children) but the daughter was a carrier and her son inherited Leopold's X.

It's very rare for a male victim to live long enough to have children, but this happened often in a Swiss valley in the 1800s, where a mild (but still eventually deadly) form of the mutation was common for a couple of generations. So common that even female sufferers existed, having two bad X chromosomes. (Women with only one defective X can have relatively low amounts of clotting factor and bruise easily, but their clotting factor is well above the maximum for the definition of haemophilia.

Ruth Rendell's "The Blood Doctor" is a departure from her normal sort of mystery (though there is a mystery, of course!). The title character is a specialist in haemophilia in Victoria's time, rather than the protagonist of a horror movie. The story is narrated by his great-grandson who finds his own life oddly paralleling his famous ancestor's. Highly recommended.

William Hyde

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 7:02:36 AM UTC+11, Bice wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
> Nicoll) wrote:
>
> >In article <616eaecc....@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >Bice <eich...@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
> >>On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
> >><davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
> >>
> >>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
> >>>> the "diversity is good" message.
> >>>
> >>>What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
> >>
> >>OK, two people have called me out on this.
> >>
> >>The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
> >>the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
> >>the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
> >>for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
> >>made the message any clearer.
> >
> >They don't say white guy.
> To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he did
> specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to Emperors was
> part of the reason the empire was crumbling.

Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire (arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its emperors. If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no way of testing - that the empire would have been much more stable and would have lasted longer.

-Moriarty

Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> wrote in
news:1c141b9e-07c0-42c8-92be-b6a686edce3dn@googlegroups.com:

> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 7:02:36 AM UTC+11, Bice wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com
>> (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <616eaecc....@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> >Bice <eich...@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>> >>On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
>> >><davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all
>> >>>> to further
>
>> >>>> the "diversity is good" message.
>> >>>
>> >>>What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
>> >>
>> >>OK, two people have called me out on this.
>> >>
>> >>The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought
>> >>before the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that
>> >>part of the reason
>
>> >>the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same
>> >>white guy for centuries instead of incorporating diversity.
>> >>They couldn't have made the message any clearer.
>> >
>> >They don't say white guy.
>> To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he
>> did specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to
>> Emperors was part of the reason the empire was crumbling.
>
> Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire
> (arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its
> emperors. If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be
> emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no
> way of testing - that the empire would have been much more
> stable and would have lasted longer.
>
Assuming that personality is based on nature, not nurture, or that
cloning produces identical people, both of which seem . . .
unlikely.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

On 10/20/2021 3:41 PM, Moriarty wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 7:02:36 AM UTC+11, Bice wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
>> Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <616eaecc....@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>> Bice <eich...@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
>>>> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
>>>>>> the "diversity is good" message.
>>>>>
>>>>> What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
>>>>
>>>> OK, two people have called me out on this.
>>>>
>>>> The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
>>>> the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
>>>> the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
>>>> for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
>>>> made the message any clearer.
>>>
>>> They don't say white guy.
>> To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he did
>> specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to Emperors was
>> part of the reason the empire was crumbling.
>
> Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire (arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its emperors. If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no way of testing - that the empire would have been much more stable and would have lasted longer.
>
> -Moriarty

Or Constantine who greatly expanded the Roman Empire.

Lynn

On 21/10/21 9:11 am, William Hyde wrote:
snip
>
> Ruth Rendell's "The Blood Doctor" is a departure from her normal sort
> of mystery (though there is a mystery, of course!). The title
> character is a specialist in haemophilia in Victoria's time, rather
> than the protagonist of a horror movie. The story is narrated by his
> great-grandson who finds his own life oddly paralleling his famous
> ancestor's. Highly recommended.
..
Thank you. I rated _A Sight for Sore Eyes_ 5 stars;
_Adam and Eve andPinch Me_ 4 stars
for the weirdly fascinating characters but others I have read have been
pleasing but ordinary.

On 20 Oct 2021 14:21:54 GMT, Jaimie Vandenbergh
<jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:

>On 19 Oct 2021 at 21:02:29 BST, "Bice" <Bice> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
>> Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <616eaecc.342831765@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>> Bice <eichler2@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
>>>> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
>>>>>> the "diversity is good" message.
>>>>>
>>>>> What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
>>>>
>>>> OK, two people have called me out on this.
>>>>
>>>> The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
>>>> the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
>>>> the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
>>>> for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
>>>> made the message any clearer.
>>>
>>> They don't say white guy.
>>
>> To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he did
>> specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to Emperors was
>> part of the reason the empire was crumbling.
>
>And you didn't think "Oh, yes, identical clones trained identically is
>indeed not a very diverse set of emperors"? Wow.

Um, where did I say anything even remotely like that?

No, I fully understood the point they were making and that that was
probably one of the main reasons the writers decided to make the
Emporers a chain of clones instead of a single guy.

-- Bob

On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:57:40 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
<taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

>Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> wrote in
>news:1c141b9e-07c0-42c8-92be-b6a686edce3dn@googlegroups.com:
>
>> Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire
>> (arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its
>> emperors. If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be
>> emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no
>> way of testing - that the empire would have been much more
>> stable and would have lasted longer.
>>
>Assuming that personality is based on nature, not nurture, or that
>cloning produces identical people, both of which seem . . .
>unlikely.

And yet that's what the Foundation TV series does - in one of the
later episodes it took me a couple minutes to catch on that the middle
clone wasn't the same person as in the earlier episodes, he was the
younger clone all grown up. But looking exactly the same and with
pretty much the same personality.

-- Bob

eichler2@comcastsucks.net (Bice) wrote in
news:6171785b.525497890@news.eternal-september.org:

> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:57:40 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
> Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> wrote in
>>news:1c141b9e-07c0-42c8-92be-b6a686edce3dn@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire
>>> (arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its
>>> emperors. If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to
>>> be emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and
>>> no way of testing - that the empire would have been much more
>>> stable and would have lasted longer.
>>>
>>Assuming that personality is based on nature, not nurture, or
>>that cloning produces identical people, both of which seem . . .
>>unlikely.
>
> And yet that's what the Foundation TV series does - in one of
> the later episodes it took me a couple minutes to catch on that
> the middle clone wasn't the same person as in the earlier
> episodes, he was the younger clone all grown up. But looking
> exactly the same and with pretty much the same personality.
>
It's a common trope in science fiction, and one of the most
annoyingly wrong, that having the same DNA means that you are
indentical in every possible way, including memories.

Sturgeon was an optomist.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

eichler2@comcastsucks.net (Bice) wrote in
news:617176ec.525130578@news.eternal-september.org:

> On 20 Oct 2021 14:21:54 GMT, Jaimie Vandenbergh
> <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
>
>>On 19 Oct 2021 at 21:02:29 BST, "Bice" <Bice> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com
>>> (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <616eaecc.342831765@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>> Bice <eichler2@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
>>>>> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all
>>>>>>> to further the "diversity is good" message.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is
>>>>>> good"?
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, two people have called me out on this.
>>>>>
>>>>> The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought
>>>>> before the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that
>>>>> part of the reason the empire is failing is because it's
>>>>> been run by the same white guy for centuries instead of
>>>>> incorporating diversity. They couldn't have made the
>>>>> message any clearer.
>>>>
>>>> They don't say white guy.
>>>
>>> To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But
>>> he did specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to
>>> Emperors was part of the reason the empire was crumbling.
>>
>>And you didn't think "Oh, yes, identical clones trained
>>identically is indeed not a very diverse set of emperors"? Wow.
>
> Um, where did I say anything even remotely like that?
>
> No, I fully understood the point they were making and that that
> was probably one of the main reasons the writers decided to make
> the Emporers a chain of clones instead of a single guy.
>
Amd I the only one flashing back on the Sten books by Bunch and
Cole?

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

In article <XnsADCA543D33B38taustingmail@85.12.62.232>,
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>eichler2@comcastsucks.net (Bice) wrote in
>news:617176ec.525130578@news.eternal-september.org:
>
>> On 20 Oct 2021 14:21:54 GMT, Jaimie Vandenbergh
>> <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On 19 Oct 2021 at 21:02:29 BST, "Bice" <Bice> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com
>>>> (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <616eaecc.342831765@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>>> Bice <eichler2@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
>>>>>> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all
>>>>>>>> to further the "diversity is good" message.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is
>>>>>>> good"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, two people have called me out on this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought
>>>>>> before the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that
>>>>>> part of the reason the empire is failing is because it's
>>>>>> been run by the same white guy for centuries instead of
>>>>>> incorporating diversity. They couldn't have made the
>>>>>> message any clearer.
>>>>>
>>>>> They don't say white guy.
>>>>
>>>> To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But
>>>> he did specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to
>>>> Emperors was part of the reason the empire was crumbling.
>>>
>>>And you didn't think "Oh, yes, identical clones trained
>>>identically is indeed not a very diverse set of emperors"? Wow.
>>
>> Um, where did I say anything even remotely like that?
>>
>> No, I fully understood the point they were making and that that
>> was probably one of the main reasons the writers decided to make
>> the Emporers a chain of clones instead of a single guy.
>>
>Amd I the only one flashing back on the Sten books by Bunch and
>Cole?
>

There's one fantasy series I ought to check to see if there's a new
book out in -- after I remember the author. Anyway the emperor has
decided to split his soul into many parts so there is always an reincarnation
of the right age to run things. It goes poorly for him. (And everyone else).
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Moriarty
<blues95@ivillage.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 7:02:36 AM UTC+11, Bice wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
>> Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <616eaecc....@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> >Bice <eich...@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>> >>On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
>> >><davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
>> >>>> the "diversity is good" message.
>> >>>
>> >>>What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
>> >>
>> >>OK, two people have called me out on this.
>> >>
>> >>The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
>> >>the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
>> >>the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
>> >>for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
>> >>made the message any clearer.
>> >
>> >They don't say white guy.
>> To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he did
>> specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to Emperors was
>> part of the reason the empire was crumbling.
>
>Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire (arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its emperors. If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no way of testing - that the empire would have been much more stable and would have lasted longer.

Ah, but before Marcus (or Constantine), they had ... Caligula and ...
Nero.

An undending chain of either would have been quite disasterous, I
suspect.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:ku43nghq22d434i042f2nq9ig0kjfardua@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Moriarty
> <blues95@ivillage.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 7:02:36 AM UTC+11, Bice wrote:
>>> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com
>>> (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>>
>>> >In article <616eaecc....@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>> >Bice <eich...@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>>> >>On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
>>> >><davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all
>>> >>>> to further the "diversity is good" message.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is
>>> >>>good"?
>>> >>
>>> >>OK, two people have called me out on this.
>>> >>
>>> >>The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought
>>> >>before the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that
>>> >>part of the reason the empire is failing is because it's
>>> >>been run by the same white guy for centuries instead of
>>> >>incorporating diversity. They couldn't have made the message
>>> >>any clearer.
>>> >
>>> >They don't say white guy.
>>> To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he
>>> did specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to
>>> Emperors was part of the reason the empire was crumbling.
>>
>>Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire
>>(arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its
>>emperors. If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be
>>emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no
>>way of testing - that the empire would have been much more
>>stable and would have lasted longer.
>
> Ah, but before Marcus (or Constantine), they had ... Caligula
> and ... Nero.
>
> An undending chain of either would have been quite disasterous,
> I suspect.

One of each was pretty disasterous.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

On 2021-05-14 7:08 a.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 13/05/2021 17.27, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <s7jvlb$cd0$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Michael F. Stemper <mstemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> I don't know whether this link will go to just the page on
>>>> _Foundation_ or to the whole article on 50 highly anticipated TV
>>>> series.  Or whether it'll go anywhere at all.
>>>
>>> It did indeed go to the page on _Foundation_.
>>>
>>>>
>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>>
>>>
>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>>
>> As far as Star Wars goes, Trantor is a lot like Corsuscant.
>
> That's true, but it's kind of a stretch from "similar place in
> fourth (in release order)" to "inspired first episode" or
> "inspired entire series".
>

Particular when Dune had the same kind of galactic empire in a similar
state of decay and the influence of Dune on the first movie is quite
obvious. What was that stuff that Han Solo smuggled again?

David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:skses8$1g19$1@gioia.aioe.org:

> On 2021-05-14 7:08 a.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 13/05/2021 17.27, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> In article <s7jvlb$cd0$1@dont-email.me>,
>>> Michael F. Stemper <mstemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>> I don't know whether this link will go to just the page on
>>>>> _Foundation_ or to the whole article on 50 highly
>>>>> anticipated TV series.  Or whether it'll go anywhere at
>>>>> all.
>>>>
>>>> It did indeed go to the page on _Foundation_.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv
>>>> -series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBn
>>>> b7Kz#image=13
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>>>
>>> As far as Star Wars goes, Trantor is a lot like Corsuscant.
>>
>> That's true, but it's kind of a stretch from "similar place in
>> fourth (in release order)" to "inspired first episode" or
>> "inspired entire series".
>>
>
> Particular when Dune had the same kind of galactic empire in a
> similar state of decay and the influence of Dune on the first
> movie is quite obvious. What was that stuff that Han Solo
> smuggled again?
>
Is there some reason he couldn't have been inspired by both, and
more? Because that's obviously the case.

Lucas has said in interviews that the strongest influence was
Kurosawa's _The Hidden Fortress_. That's certainly the case for the
story. The rest is just furniture.

https://tinyurl.com/35mh3zaw

https://dorksideoftheforce.com/2021/09/24/star-wars-inspired-
japanese-cinema-samurai-history/

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

In article <ku43nghq22d434i042f2nq9ig0kjfardua@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Moriarty
><blues95@ivillage.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 7:02:36 AM UTC+11, Bice wrote:
>>> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
>>> Nicoll) wrote:
>>>
>>> >In article <616eaecc....@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>> >Bice <eich...@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>>> >>On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
>>> >><davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
>>> >>>> the "diversity is good" message.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
>>> >>
>>> >>OK, two people have called me out on this.
>>> >>
>>> >>The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
>>> >>the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
>>> >>the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
>>> >>for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
>>> >>made the message any clearer.
>>> >
>>> >They don't say white guy.
>>> To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he did
>>> specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to Emperors was
>>> part of the reason the empire was crumbling.
>>
>>Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire (arguably)
>crumbled was because of the varying quality of its emperors. If they'd managed
>to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit -
>with no evidence and no way of testing - that the empire would have been much
>more stable and would have lasted longer.
>
>Ah, but before Marcus (or Constantine), they had ... Caligula and ...
>Nero.
>
Excellent tests for nurture vs nature.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll