On Monday, 17 May 2021 at 14:22:41 UTC+1, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
> > On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> >> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
> >>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> >>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
> >>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
> >>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
> >>>
> >>> Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
> >>
> >> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
> >>
> >> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
> >
> > TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
> > guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
> > star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
> >
> > LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
> > slip through your fingers.
>
> Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
> Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.

I grant that her statement is probably not intended
as helpful advice to the Empire, and not taken as
such, but it may be argued that a plan to maintain
your ownership of the planets of the galaxy by
blowing some of them up will not look good on the
balance sheet.

On Tue, 18 May 2021 02:40:05 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Monday, 17 May 2021 at 14:22:41 UTC+1, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
>> > On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> >> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
>> >>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> >>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>> >>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>> >>>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>> >>>
>> >>> Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled on Rome.
>> >>
>> >> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>> >>
>> >> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire is crumbling:
>> >
>> > TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
>> > guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
>> > star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
>> >
>> > LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
>> > slip through your fingers.
>>
>> Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
>> Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.
>
>I grant that her statement is probably not intended
>as helpful advice to the Empire, and not taken as
>such, but it may be argued that a plan to maintain
>your ownership of the planets of the galaxy by
>blowing some of them up will not look good on the
>balance sheet.

A vivid illustration of the ultimate failure of a policy of "law and
order".
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:5sr7agtq4lmiahqnj5fb64ihoquph48u9g@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 18 May 2021 02:40:05 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, 17 May 2021 at 14:22:41 UTC+1, Michael F. Stemper
>>wrote:
>>> On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:
>>> > On 2021-05-15 2:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>> >> On 14/05/2021 20.03, David Johnston wrote:
>>> >>> On 2021-05-13 1:45 p.m., Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>> >>>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipat
>>> >>>>> ed-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsign
>>> >>>>> out&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>>> >>>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that
>>> >>>> _Foundation_ inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Star Wars starts with a crumbling Galactic Empire modeled
>>> >>> on Rome.
>>> >>
>>> >> News to me. What evidence is there for either of these?
>>> >>
>>> >> Evidence that, at the beginning of _Star Wars_, the Empire
>>> >> is crumbling:
>>> >
>>> > TARKIN Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you
>>> > to be my guest at a ceremony that will make this battle
>>> > station operational. No star system will dare oppose the
>>> > Emperor now.
>>> >
>>> > LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star
>>> > systems will slip through your fingers.
>>>
>>> Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The
>>> construction of Death Star shows that the Empire was
>>> increasing its strength.
>>
>>I grant that her statement is probably not intended
>>as helpful advice to the Empire, and not taken as
>>such, but it may be argued that a plan to maintain
>>your ownership of the planets of the galaxy by
>>blowing some of them up will not look good on the
>>balance sheet.
>
> A vivid illustration of the ultimate failure of a policy of "law
> and order".

That would be "lawful evil" rather than "lawful good" or "lawful
neutral."

All governments act for the public good. The trick is who gets to
decide what is best for the public.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

On 17/05/2021 17.37, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/17/2021 8:38 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> In article <s7tqms$sj4$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Michael F. Stemper <mstemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 16/05/2021 15.22, David Johnston wrote:

>>>> LEIA The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will
>>>> slip through your fingers.
>>>
>>> Oh c'mon. Her brave defiance is nothing but that. The construction of
>>> Death Star shows that the Empire was increasing its strength.
>>>
>>
>>     http://columbiaclosings.com/pix/21/05/scam.jpg
>
> What happened to all of the independent contractors working on Death
> Star II ?
>    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb8MVKihBDU

I could tell that was old because the cigarette prices were $1.50-$2.00.
(When I quite, they were pushing $10.00)

--
Michael F. Stemper
The FAQ for rec.arts.sf.written is at
<http://leepers.us/evelyn/faqs/sf-written.htm>
Please read it before posting.

On 29/05/2021 13.04, Michael F. Stemper wrote:

> (When I quite, they were pushing $10.00)

Quit! Quit, damnit! Bad fingers!

(No, not the band)
--
Michael F. Stemper
I feel more like I do now than I did when I came in.

On Thu, 13 May 2021 19:21:05 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>I don't know whether this link will go to just the page on
>_Foundation_ or to the whole article on 50 highly anticipated TV
>series. Or whether it'll go anywhere at all.
>
>https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>
>So I'll summarize.
>
>The status is "filming." Cassian Bilton, Laura Birn, Jared Harris,
>and Leah Harvey have been cast.

Has anyone else watched this yet? My daughter signed up for a one
week free trial of Apple TV because she thought I'd want to see it.
So I watched the first five episodes (the sixth episode doesn't become
availble until this Friday).

The series has about as much in common with the books as that Will
Smith "I Robot" movie did, i.e. they took general concepts and
character names and then wrote a new story around them. It's been a
while since I read the books, but I'd guesstimate that maybe 20% of
the TV series actually comes from the books, and most of that was in
the first episode where they're setting up the backstory.

If you're the type that gets bent out of shape by movies that change
male (and presumably white) characters from the books into women and
people of color, then you'll probably want to skip this one. They
really went out of their way to do that as much as possible. They
also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
the "diversity is good" message. They're also a little heavy handed
with the messages of religion vs. science and not ignoring global
warming.

It's visually pretty spectacular, although it suffers from the trend
that's been popular in sci-fi movies for a while now of making
everything darker than necessary. I don't mean darker in tone, I mean
actual lack of lighting.

Anyone who likes sci-fi/fantasy epics and has never read the books (or
just isn't expecting it to be a direct translation) will probably
enjoy it. I got the feeling a few times that they were going for a
sci-fi version of the Game of Thrones TV series.

Anyone who's looking for a faithful adaptation of the books will
probably hate it.

-- Bob

In article <616c4a25.185996078@news.eternal-september.org>,
Bice <eichler2@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>
>If you're the type that gets bent out of shape by movies that change
>male (and presumably white) characters from the books into women and
>people of color, then you'll probably want to skip this one.

I don't think it came up in the original Foundation books but The Currents of
Space makes it clear 20th Century Americans would not classify Galactics as
white. Extremes of skin colour for the most part do not exist. Florinia is
an exception, being populated by white people, but it is a colonial holding
of a minor power on the border of the Empire. Or rather, by the Foundation's
era, it was: various events make it unlikely the planet is still populated.

The planet was going to be evacuated but the rustics didn't seem to have skills
that Trantor particularly needed on Trantor. Wherever the refugees ended up,
it was probably somewhere else. Or many somewheres else.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

In article <616c4a25.185996078@news.eternal-september.org>,
eichler2@comcastsucks.net (Bice) writes:

> On Thu, 13 May 2021 19:21:05 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> Heydt) wrote:
>
> >I don't know whether this link will go to just the page on
> >_Foundation_ or to the whole article on 50 highly anticipated TV
> >series. Or whether it'll go anywhere at all.
> >
> >https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
> >
> >So I'll summarize.
> >
> >The status is "filming." Cassian Bilton, Laura Birn, Jared Harris,
> >and Leah Harvey have been cast.
>
> Has anyone else watched this yet?

Check out rec.arts.sf.written.tv

> My daughter signed up for a one
> week free trial of Apple TV because she thought I'd want to see it.

I have a free subscription (total of 1 year) to AppleTV+ (the streaming
service) since I bought an AppleTV (piece of hardware) a few months ago.
(The main reason for the AppleTV was to use it to get cheaper and better
internet TV as opposed to cable, but it also has several other
interesting features.)

> So I watched the first five episodes (the sixth episode doesn't become
> availble until this Friday).
>
> The series has about as much in common with the books as that Will
> Smith "I Robot" movie did, i.e. they took general concepts and
> character names and then wrote a new story around them.

Right.

> It's been a
> while since I read the books, but I'd guesstimate that maybe 20% of
> the TV series actually comes from the books, and most of that was in
> the first episode where they're setting up the backstory.

Right.

> If you're the type that gets bent out of shape by movies that change
> male (and presumably white) characters from the books into women and
> people of color, then you'll probably want to skip this one.

I don't see that as a big change. Which characters did Asimov
explicitly describe as white? And with the lack of sex in most of his
books, the gender of the characters really doesn't matter. But writing
in new love stories does.

> They
> really went out of their way to do that as much as possible. They
> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
> the "diversity is good" message.

Not sure that that was the reason.

> They're also a little heavy handed
> with the messages of religion vs. science and not ignoring global
> warming.

Yes.

> It's visually pretty spectacular,

Yes.

> although it suffers from the trend
> that's been popular in sci-fi movies for a while now of making
> everything darker than necessary. I don't mean darker in tone, I mean
> actual lack of lighting.

Right. Who ordered that?

> Anyone who likes sci-fi/fantasy epics and has never read the books (or
> just isn't expecting it to be a direct translation) will probably
> enjoy it. I got the feeling a few times that they were going for a
> sci-fi version of the Game of Thrones TV series.
>
> Anyone who's looking for a faithful adaptation of the books will
> probably hate it.

Right.

As an Asimov fan, I was disappointed.

In article <skhk9v$a58$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) <helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de> wrote:
>In article <616c4a25.185996078@news.eternal-september.org>,
>eichler2@comcastsucks.net (Bice) writes:
>
>> They
>> really went out of their way to do that as much as possible. They
>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
>> the "diversity is good" message.
>
>Not sure that that was the reason.
>
I am not sure I'd call the Cleons evil as such. They are more a symptom of
late imperial rot. Cleon I's grand solution to the crises four centuries
earlier was to hit pause by doing his best to remain in power making the
same kind of choices over and over. Being unable to live forever, he
arranged to be replaced by clones, raised by a tutor who is effectively
immortal. And apparently not close to being Three Laws compliant.

Someone on twitter speculated the arrangement is really [spoiler's] try
at making a human pet who won't abandon them by dying. Which would be
fine if the pet was not running an empire and didn't have a real weakness
for mass murder as a go-to solution.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

In article <skhne2$eeq$1@reader1.panix.com>,
James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <skhk9v$a58$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
>Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) <helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de> wrote:
>>In article <616c4a25.185996078@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>eichler2@comcastsucks.net (Bice) writes:
>>
>>> They
>>> really went out of their way to do that as much as possible. They
>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
>>> the "diversity is good" message.
>>
>>Not sure that that was the reason.
>>
>I am not sure I'd call the Cleons evil as such. They are more a symptom of
>late imperial rot. Cleon I's grand solution to the crises four centuries
>earlier was to hit pause by doing his best to remain in power making the
>same kind of choices over and over. Being unable to live forever, he
>arranged to be replaced by clones, raised by a tutor who is effectively
>immortal. And apparently not close to being Three Laws compliant.

That said, four hundred years for a dynasty is not a bad run.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 5/13/2021 5:16 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <s7jvlb$cd0$1@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <mstemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 13/05/2021 14.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> I don't know whether this link will go to just the page on
>>> _Foundation_ or to the whole article on 50 highly anticipated TV
>>> series. Or whether it'll go anywhere at all.
>>
>> It did indeed go to the page on _Foundation_.
>>
>>>
>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>
>> A couple of thoughts on the article:
>> 1. I have no idea how somebody could claim that _Foundation_
>> inspired _Star Wars_ or _Star Trek_.
>
> Well, you can't ask Gene Roddenberry, but you could ask George
> Lucas if you could get hold of him. That said, whole generations
> of SF writers, not to mention scientists, have been influenced by
> the writers of Asimov's generation.
>

Gee I bet no one knew that before.

>> 2. If the series is going to cover "thousands of years", it's
>> going to be covering a lot more than what Asimov wrote about
>> the Foundation.
>
> Oh, yes, it could go to the robot stories and all the other
> stories that got linked to the Foundation line.
>
> (I'd like to see Judi Dench playing Susan Calvin.)
>

Maybe you're right, only old and unattractive women
can be intelligent and creative scientists.
What about lesbians shouldn't they be cloistered too
away from society to suit your notions of what
is acceptable? Maybe limiting young women to
just writing stories or poems would be better
suited to you too?

So young women can be treated just like the good old days
when they allowed to be seen but not heard.

"They shut me up in Prose –
As when a little Girl
They put me in the Closet –
Because they liked me “still” –

Still! Could themself have peeped –
And seen my Brain – go round –
They might as wise have lodged a Bird
For Treason – in the Pound –

Himself has but to will
And easy as a Star
Look down opon Captivity –
And laugh – No more have I

~ E Dickinson (circa 1865)

....Your good ol' days.

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

In article <vYmdnTTT2-Ae__H8nZ2dnUU7-W_NnZ2d@giganews.com>, Jonathan
<Mail.instead@gmail.com> writes:

> > (I'd like to see Judi Dench playing Susan Calvin.)
>
> Maybe you're right, only old and unattractive women
> can be intelligent and creative scientists.

In the books, she wasn't as old as Dench. And she WAS described as
plain.

And who says Judi is ugly?

On 10/17/2021 1:56 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <vYmdnTTT2-Ae__H8nZ2dnUU7-W_NnZ2d@giganews.com>, Jonathan
> <Mail.instead@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> (I'd like to see Judi Dench playing Susan Calvin.)
>>
>> Maybe you're right, only old and unattractive women
>> can be intelligent and creative scientists.
>
> In the books, she wasn't as old as Dench. And she WAS described as
> plain.
>

And here's a typical scene of Susan Calvin from I, Robot
how is this in any way unrealistic to portray the
scientist behind the design of the robots in this way?
It's quite common for scientists to make their
discoveries early on in their careers, a subject
of at least one memorable Star Trek episode.

Why Will Smith hates robots
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOKEIE2puso&ab_channel=GrantSWoolner

> And who says Judi is ugly?
>

I didn't say ugly, but unattractive.
I like her acting and she was well cast in
for instance her Bond Movies. But we
should to be honest here. Casting her
as a potential love interest for Will Smith
would not be good casting at all.

And generally speaking sci-fi movies are also
part romance stories. It would reduce the
ongoing tension between the two lead characters
of that movie significantly, and that scientific
and sexual tension between them was a central
element of that movie.

Judy Dench
https://www.biography.com/actor/judi-dench

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

On Sunday, 17 October 2021 at 18:56:20 UTC+1, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <vYmdnTTT2-Ae__H8...@giganews.com>, Jonathan
> <Mail.i...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > > (I'd like to see Judi Dench playing Susan Calvin.)
> >
> > Maybe you're right, only old and unattractive women
> > can be intelligent and creative scientists.
> In the books, she wasn't as old as Dench. And she WAS described as
> plain.

Yes, it is a character detail, of a sort. The title
character of _Jane Eyre_ is "plain", and she tells us
so in first person narration.

And Susan Calvin is respected for her work; she isn't
popular with male colleagues, a feeling that she returns,
and there aren't many female ones. A few stories turn
upon her regret of missing out on love and family.
Some people think that she wishes she was a robot
or that colleagues around her were robots, which she
finds ridiculous. She just wishes they were as good
as robots.

(When the stories were written, maybe to stay employed -
and to remain as a character - she /had/ to not marry.
Times have changed.)

Of course, an adaptation doesn't have to use that
character or use all of the original stories, and someone
else could be given a turn to be represented, but removing
a serious, honourable, professional, not there to be pretty
woman character from Asimov's world of robots is a minus.

But if they do that but also make Powell and Donovan into
interracial polyamorous lesbians, who smoke, then they
probably are in credit even if Calvin Susann is now a guy.
And even if Powell and Donovan don't do any of those
things while we watch. The stories are really about
applied robotics, after all.

At least one of them should smoke a pipe. Or do
they already?

> And who says Judi is ugly?

She and James Bond often did get very cross with each
other. But I don't remember all of who called who what.

On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
> On Thu, 13 May 2021 19:21:05 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> Heydt) wrote:
>
>> I don't know whether this link will go to just the page on
>> _Foundation_ or to the whole article on 50 highly anticipated TV
>> series. Or whether it'll go anywhere at all.
>>
>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/50-highly-anticipated-tv-series-coming-out-in-2021/ss-BB1ct4rg?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz#image=13
>>
>> So I'll summarize.
>>
>> The status is "filming." Cassian Bilton, Laura Birn, Jared Harris,
>> and Leah Harvey have been cast.
>
>
> Has anyone else watched this yet? My daughter signed up for a one
> week free trial of Apple TV because she thought I'd want to see it.
> So I watched the first five episodes (the sixth episode doesn't become
> availble until this Friday).
>
> The series has about as much in common with the books as that Will
> Smith "I Robot" movie did, i.e. they took general concepts and
> character names and then wrote a new story around them. It's been a
> while since I read the books, but I'd guesstimate that maybe 20% of
> the TV series actually comes from the books, and most of that was in
> the first episode where they're setting up the backstory.
>
> If you're the type that gets bent out of shape by movies that change
> male (and presumably white) characters from the books into women and
> people of color,

Asimov actually presumed that the far future wouldn't have many of what
we call "white" people.

then you'll probably want to skip this one. They
> really went out of their way to do that as much as possible. They
> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
> the "diversity is good" message.

What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"? Me, I kind
of suspect they did the clone thing so they could use the same actor
centuries later if the show lasts long enough to get into Bel Riose and
because all the emperors seem to be named Cleon. Although it could just
be a matter of wanting to update monarchy from something archaic into
something science fictional.

They're also a little heavy handed
> with the messages of religion vs. science and not ignoring global
> warming.
>
> It's visually pretty spectacular, although it suffers from the trend
> that's been popular in sci-fi movies for a while now of making
> everything darker than necessary. I don't mean darker in tone, I mean
> actual lack of lighting.
>
> Anyone who likes sci-fi/fantasy epics and has never read the books (or
> just isn't expecting it to be a direct translation) will probably
> enjoy it. I got the feeling a few times that they were going for a
> sci-fi version of the Game of Thrones TV series.
>
> Anyone who's looking for a faithful adaptation of the books will
> probably hate it.

But then anyone expecting a faithful adaptation of a series so
ill-suited to television is being pretty damn unreasonable.

begin fnord
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:

> Cleon I's grand solution to the crises four centuries earlier was to
> hit pause by doing his best to remain in power making the same kind of
> choices over and over. Being unable to live forever, he arranged to be
> replaced by clones...

Which is why he became known to history as the Clone Arranger.

--
Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press

In article <m2mtn6qp4u.fsf@kelutral.omcl.org>,
Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> wrote:
>begin fnord
>jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>
>> Cleon I's grand solution to the crises four centuries earlier was to
>> hit pause by doing his best to remain in power making the same kind of
>> choices over and over. Being unable to live forever, he arranged to be
>> replaced by clones...
>
>Which is why he became known to history as the Clone Arranger.
>
/slap

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On 19/10/21 7:11 am, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <m2mtn6qp4u.fsf@kelutral.omcl.org>,
> Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> wrote:
>> begin fnord
>> jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>>
>>> Cleon I's grand solution to the crises four centuries earlier was to
>>> hit pause by doing his best to remain in power making the same kind of
>>> choices over and over. Being unable to live forever, he arranged to be
>>> replaced by clones...
>>
>> Which is why he became known to history as the Clone Arranger.
>>
> /slap
>
..
No, that should have been a hard s: /clap

On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
<davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:

>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
>> the "diversity is good" message.
>
>What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?

OK, two people have called me out on this.

The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
made the message any clearer.

-- Bob

In article <616eaecc.342831765@news.eternal-september.org>,
Bice <eichler2@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
><davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>
>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
>>> the "diversity is good" message.
>>
>>What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
>
>OK, two people have called me out on this.
>
>The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
>the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
>the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
>for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
>made the message any clearer.

They don't say white guy. I know, given the history of the Florinians its
reasonable to wonder if they are ready for complex tasks but presumably
Cleon I was a credit to his race.

The problem with the clones is that the combination of cloning and training
produces rulers with a very narrow range of responses to crises, as the robot
observes to Brother Dawn. No matter their good intentions as a kid, once they
become Brother Day, mass executions are an acceptable solution, and by the
time they are Brother Dusk, they're positively keen on them. Which is great
when mass executions can fix the problem but not so great when a ton of
innocent people get murdered because the Empire has to punish someone and
they're someone.

However, the clones managed to stay in power for four centuries, which about
twice as long as the longest surviving Roman dynasty. Rome being the model
for the Empire. So, not the worst solution, even if the wheels are beginning
to wobble.

(Not directly related to the clones: what does the Empire do for its subject
worlds? The planet of damp religious nuts seems to have been abandoned to its
fate)
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

begin fnord
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:

> (Not directly related to the clones: what does the Empire do for its subject
> worlds?

Not bombard them from orbit.

--
Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press

On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

>In article <616eaecc.342831765@news.eternal-september.org>,
>Bice <eichler2@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>>On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
>><davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>>
>>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
>>>> the "diversity is good" message.
>>>
>>>What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
>>
>>OK, two people have called me out on this.
>>
>>The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
>>the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
>>the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
>>for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
>>made the message any clearer.
>
>They don't say white guy.

To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he did
specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to Emperors was
part of the reason the empire was crumbling. Which was just one of
many times the script writers made the point that diversity is good.

BTW, if I'm coming across as anti-diversity, that's not the impression
that I'm trying to give. I'm just saying it's a major (one could
argue THE major) theme of that TV series.

-- Bob

On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:47:00 GMT, eichler2@comcastsucks.net (Bice)
wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
><davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>
>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
>>> the "diversity is good" message.
>>
>>What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
>
>OK, two people have called me out on this.
>
>The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
>the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
>the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
>for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
>made the message any clearer.

I think if it had been run by the same black, brown, yellow, red,
green, blue, or purple with pink polka-dots guy, gal, or whatever you
call an organism that reproduces by fission you'd get the same result.

In article <616f2339.372636593@news.eternal-september.org>,
Bice <eichler2@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
>Nicoll) wrote:
>
>>In article <616eaecc.342831765@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>Bice <eichler2@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>>>On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
>>><davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>>>
>>>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
>>>>> the "diversity is good" message.
>>>>
>>>>What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
>>>
>>>OK, two people have called me out on this.
>>>
>>>The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
>>>the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
>>>the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
>>>for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
>>>made the message any clearer.
>>
>>They don't say white guy.
>
>To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he did
>specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to Emperors was
>part of the reason the empire was crumbling. Which was just one of
>many times the script writers made the point that diversity is good.
>
I'm reminded of the Hapsburgs, particularly the Spanish branch of
the family. Google Charles II of Spain sometime. Wikipedia has
a picture of him. The whole family needed diversity in the worst
way, and they didn't get it.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <r19AKr.5BK@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <616f2339.372636593@news.eternal-september.org>,
>Bice <eichler2@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>>On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
>>Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <616eaecc.342831765@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>Bice <eichler2@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
>>>>On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
>>>><davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
>>>>>> the "diversity is good" message.
>>>>>
>>>>>What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
>>>>
>>>>OK, two people have called me out on this.
>>>>
>>>>The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
>>>>the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
>>>>the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
>>>>for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
>>>>made the message any clearer.
>>>
>>>They don't say white guy.
>>
>>To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he did
>>specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to Emperors was
>>part of the reason the empire was crumbling. Which was just one of
>>many times the script writers made the point that diversity is good.
>>
>I'm reminded of the Hapsburgs, particularly the Spanish branch of
>the family. Google Charles II of Spain sometime. Wikipedia has
>a picture of him. The whole family needed diversity in the worst
>way, and they didn't get it.
>

The longer you reign, diverse it gets..
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..