On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 6:21:33 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/20/2021 3:41 PM, Moriarty wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 7:02:36 AM UTC+11, Bice wrote:
> >> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
> >> Nicoll) wrote:
> >>
> >>> In article <616eaecc....@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >>> Bice <eich...@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
> >>>> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
> >>>>>> the "diversity is good" message.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
> >>>>
> >>>> OK, two people have called me out on this.
> >>>>
> >>>> The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
> >>>> the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
> >>>> the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
> >>>> for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
> >>>> made the message any clearer.
> >>>
> >>> They don't say white guy.
> >> To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he did
> >> specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to Emperors was
> >> part of the reason the empire was crumbling.
> >
> > Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire (arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its emperors. If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no way of testing - that the empire would have been much more stable and would have lasted longer.

If Marcus Aurelius had simply not had a son, he would have adopted another, and presumably good, emperor as the childless emperors preceding him had.

> >
> > -Moriarty
> Or Constantine who greatly expanded the Roman Empire.

He did no such thing. He killed a lot of people in his personal quest for glory, but his wars were against fellow Romans. He did think that the adoption of Christianity would stabilize the empire. He was sadly disappointed at how much the Christians turned out to hate each other, once persecution no longer united them.

Trajan was the last emperor to significantly expand the empire. By Constantine's time all but a fraction of Trajan's conquests had been given up.

William Hyde

On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 9:10:59 AM UTC+11, William Hyde wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 6:21:33 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > On 10/20/2021 3:41 PM, Moriarty wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 7:02:36 AM UTC+11, Bice wrote:
> > >> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
> > >> Nicoll) wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> In article <616eaecc....@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > >>> Bice <eich...@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
> > >> To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he did
> > >> specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to Emperors was
> > >> part of the reason the empire was crumbling.
> > >
> > > Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire (arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its emperors. If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no way of testing - that the empire would have been much more stable and would have lasted longer.
>
> If Marcus Aurelius had simply not had a son, he would have adopted another, and presumably good, emperor as the childless emperors preceding him had..

That's sort of where I was going with the thought: one of the good emperors adopting his own clone as a successor. Rinse and repeat.

Dan Simmons did something like that in his Hyperion books: there was a long succession of popes, all clones. They weren't good though.

-Moriarty

On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:23:50 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>>Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire (arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its emperors. If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no way of testing - that the empire would have been much more stable and would have lasted longer.
>
>Ah, but before Marcus (or Constantine), they had ... Caligula and ...
>Nero.
>
>An undending chain of either would have been quite disasterous, I
>suspect.

Lots of perfectly good Roman emperors had not so good sons. You
mentioned Marcus Aurelius - well he begat Commodus....

Similarly Claudius was having a pretty good run as emperor until he
adopted Nero...and Germanicus was a distinguished Roman general who
everyone expected to be a future emperor until he died too early and
gave Rome his son Caligula.

On 2021-10-21, David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>> As far as Star Wars goes, Trantor is a lot like Corsuscant.
>
> Particular when Dune had the same kind of galactic empire in a similar
> state of decay and the influence of Dune on the first movie is quite
> obvious.

I don't see it. There's a desert planet and that's it.

> What was that stuff that Han Solo smuggled again?

"Spices", IIRC. Which I always took as a euphemism for drugs.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 8:30:08 AM UTC-5, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> On 2021-10-21, David Johnston <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>> As far as Star Wars goes, Trantor is a lot like Corsuscant.
> >
> > Particular when Dune had the same kind of galactic empire in a similar
> > state of decay and the influence of Dune on the first movie is quite
> > obvious.
>
> I don't see it. There's a desert planet and that's it.

There's also a sandworm skeleton in the background in one scene.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 21:33:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:23:50 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire (arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its emperors. If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no way of testing - that the empire would have been much more stable and would have lasted longer.
>>
>>Ah, but before Marcus (or Constantine), they had ... Caligula and ...
>>Nero.
>>
>>An undending chain of either would have been quite disasterous, I
>>suspect.
>
>Lots of perfectly good Roman emperors had not so good sons. You
>mentioned Marcus Aurelius - well he begat Commodus....
>
>Similarly Claudius was having a pretty good run as emperor until he
>adopted Nero...and Germanicus was a distinguished Roman general who
>everyone expected to be a future emperor until he died too early and
>gave Rome his son Caligula.

Much as I would like to weigh in here, I'm afraid anything I said
would be based more on the miniseries /I, Claudius/ than on reality.

Of course, if they followed Graves closely enough, they could be
correct: Graves knew his stuff, after all.

But whether Claudius /really/ adopted Nero in the hope that he would
be so utterly unacceptable that the Republic would be restored, or
whether the young Caligula murdered his father, sounds ... very
dramatic and so possibly not entirely correct.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

In article <r3o5ngh1iqahnfvtmlfkj1qo7usdfl53qh@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 21:33:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:23:50 -0700, Paul S Person
>><psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>>Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire
>(arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its emperors.
>If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be
>emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no way of
>testing - that the empire would have been much more stable and would
>have lasted longer.
>>>
>>>Ah, but before Marcus (or Constantine), they had ... Caligula and ...
>>>Nero.
>>>
>>>An undending chain of either would have been quite disasterous, I
>>>suspect.
>>
>>Lots of perfectly good Roman emperors had not so good sons. You
>>mentioned Marcus Aurelius - well he begat Commodus....
>>
>>Similarly Claudius was having a pretty good run as emperor until he
>>adopted Nero...and Germanicus was a distinguished Roman general who
>>everyone expected to be a future emperor until he died too early and
>>gave Rome his son Caligula.
>
>Much as I would like to weigh in here, I'm afraid anything I said
>would be based more on the miniseries /I, Claudius/ than on reality.
>
>Of course, if they followed Graves closely enough, they could be
>correct: Graves knew his stuff, after all.
>
>But whether Claudius /really/ adopted Nero in the hope that he would
>be so utterly unacceptable that the Republic would be restored, or
>whether the young Caligula murdered his father, sounds ... very
>dramatic and so possibly not entirely correct.
>--

Tacitus made the point that Augustus reigned for so long that by the
time he died very few people alive remembered Republican government,
and nobody remembered *good* Republican government.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 22 Oct 2021 16:34:51 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
<tednolan>) wrote:

>Tacitus made the point that Augustus reigned for so long that by the
>time he died very few people alive remembered Republican government,
>and nobody remembered *good* Republican government.

That's a very good quote since the halcyon days of the republic ended
at least 30 years before Julius Caesar and the first triumvirate.

On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 5:33:42 AM UTC+1, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:23:50 -0700, Paul S Person
> <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
> >>Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire (arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its emperors. If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no way of testing - that the empire would have been much more stable and would have lasted longer.
> >
> >Ah, but before Marcus (or Constantine), they had ... Caligula and ...
> >Nero.
> >
> >An undending chain of either would have been quite disasterous, I
> >suspect.
>
> Lots of perfectly good Roman emperors had not so good sons. You
> mentioned Marcus Aurelius - well he begat Commodus....
>
> Similarly Claudius was having a pretty good run as emperor until he
> adopted Nero...and Germanicus was a distinguished Roman general who
> everyone expected to be a future emperor until he died too early and
> gave Rome his son Caligula.

(On Misc topics in this thread as well)
I think that if the entire human race had only one skin tone (Lathe Of Heaven, at one point) we would still find quick ways to judge people. In the original Foundation series the diplomat who comes to wash his hands of the responsibility of protecting Trantor has a noticeable accent. While I have an unfortunate accent myself, I have to admit that discrimination by accent is probably one of the least arbitrary forms of discrimination, since a person's accent reflects the culture in which they grew up.

While nurture is strong, there are enough uncanny stories about similarity between separated identical twins to suggest that clones might be surprisingly similar.

I suspect that picking Roman Emperors is a nearly impossible problem as long as the Emperor is a warlord in a violent society with untreated epidemic disease, either of which have the potential to change the Emperor's character noticeably. (I do wonder if some modern day incidents with special forces are related to head injury).

What advice could we give Cicero to save the Republic? I wonder about three-man teams for high office and high officials far away from Rome - a chief, a deputy, and a monitor. If the deputy and the monitor agree, the deputy will replace the chief. No single madman can do damage here - a failed chief is replaced, a failed deputy ignored, and at worst a dodgy monitor replaces a sane chief with a sane but over-ambitious deputy. (And there is none of the division of command that Livy warned about repeatedly).

In article <6c13238e-6c6b-44a1-9e2a-eb924dd47d3cn@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 5:33:42 AM UTC+1, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:23:50 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >>Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire
>(arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its emperors.
>If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be
>emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no way of
>testing - that the empire would have been much more stable and would
>have lasted longer.
>> >
>> >Ah, but before Marcus (or Constantine), they had ... Caligula and ...
>> >Nero.
>> >
>> >An undending chain of either would have been quite disasterous, I
>> >suspect.
>>
>> Lots of perfectly good Roman emperors had not so good sons. You
>> mentioned Marcus Aurelius - well he begat Commodus....
>>
>> Similarly Claudius was having a pretty good run as emperor until he
>> adopted Nero...and Germanicus was a distinguished Roman general who
>> everyone expected to be a future emperor until he died too early and
>> gave Rome his son Caligula.
>
>(On Misc topics in this thread as well)
>I think that if the entire human race had only one skin tone (Lathe Of
>Heaven, at one point) we would still find quick ways to judge people. In
>the original Foundation series the diplomat who comes to wash his hands
>of the responsibility of protecting Trantor has a noticeable accent.
>While I have an unfortunate accent myself, I have to admit that
>discrimination by accent is probably one of the least arbitrary forms of
>discrimination, since a person's accent reflects the culture in which
>they grew up.
>
>While nurture is strong, there are enough uncanny stories about
>similarity between separated identical twins to suggest that clones
>might be surprisingly similar.
>
>I suspect that picking Roman Emperors is a nearly impossible problem as
>long as the Emperor is a warlord in a violent society with untreated
>epidemic disease, either of which have the potential to change the
>Emperor's character noticeably. (I do wonder if some modern day
>incidents with special forces are related to head injury).
>
>What advice could we give Cicero to save the Republic? I wonder about
>three-man teams for high office and high officials far away from Rome -
>a chief, a deputy, and a monitor. If the deputy and the monitor agree,
>the deputy will replace the chief. No single madman can do damage here -
>a failed chief is replaced, a failed deputy ignored, and at worst a
>dodgy monitor replaces a sane chief with a sane but over-ambitious
>deputy. (And there is none of the division of command that Livy warned
>about repeatedly).

So.. some kind of .. Triumverate?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote in
news:6c13238e-6c6b-44a1-9e2a-eb924dd47d3cn@googlegroups.com:

> What advice could we give Cicero to save the Republic? I wonder
> about three-man teams for high office and high officials far
> away from Rome - a chief, a deputy, and a monitor. If the deputy
> and the monitor agree, the deputy will replace the chief. No
> single madman can do damage here - a failed chief is replaced, a
> failed deputy ignored, and at worst a dodgy monitor replaces a
> sane chief with a sane but over-ambitious deputy. (And there is
> none of the division of command that Livy warned about
> repeatedly).
>
You assume that bad leadership comes only from madness, and not from
more mundane sings like greed and hunger for power. And a conspiracy
of two is pretty easy to arrange.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 7:03:20 PM UTC+1, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <6c13238e-6c6b-44a1...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 5:33:42 AM UTC+1, The Horny Goat wrote:
> >> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:23:50 -0700, Paul S Person
> >> <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> >>Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire
> >(arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its emperors.
> >If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be
> >emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no way of
> >testing - that the empire would have been much more stable and would
> >have lasted longer.
> >> >
> >> >Ah, but before Marcus (or Constantine), they had ... Caligula and ...
> >> >Nero.
> >> >
> >> >An undending chain of either would have been quite disasterous, I
> >> >suspect.
> >>
> >> Lots of perfectly good Roman emperors had not so good sons. You
> >> mentioned Marcus Aurelius - well he begat Commodus....
> >>
> >> Similarly Claudius was having a pretty good run as emperor until he
> >> adopted Nero...and Germanicus was a distinguished Roman general who
> >> everyone expected to be a future emperor until he died too early and
> >> gave Rome his son Caligula.
> >
> >(On Misc topics in this thread as well)
> >I think that if the entire human race had only one skin tone (Lathe Of
> >Heaven, at one point) we would still find quick ways to judge people. In
> >the original Foundation series the diplomat who comes to wash his hands
> >of the responsibility of protecting Trantor has a noticeable accent.
> >While I have an unfortunate accent myself, I have to admit that
> >discrimination by accent is probably one of the least arbitrary forms of
> >discrimination, since a person's accent reflects the culture in which
> >they grew up.
> >
> >While nurture is strong, there are enough uncanny stories about
> >similarity between separated identical twins to suggest that clones
> >might be surprisingly similar.
> >
> >I suspect that picking Roman Emperors is a nearly impossible problem as
> >long as the Emperor is a warlord in a violent society with untreated
> >epidemic disease, either of which have the potential to change the
> >Emperor's character noticeably. (I do wonder if some modern day
> >incidents with special forces are related to head injury).
> >
> >What advice could we give Cicero to save the Republic? I wonder about
> >three-man teams for high office and high officials far away from Rome -
> >a chief, a deputy, and a monitor. If the deputy and the monitor agree,
> >the deputy will replace the chief. No single madman can do damage here -
> >a failed chief is replaced, a failed deputy ignored, and at worst a
> >dodgy monitor replaces a sane chief with a sane but over-ambitious
> >deputy. (And there is none of the division of command that Livy warned
> >about repeatedly).
> So.. some kind of .. Triumverate?
> --
> columbiaclosings.com
> What's not in Columbia anymore..

Three men, but with different rules to the standard Triumvirate - the fact that it is so similar to the Triumvirates with which the Romans were familiar (a web search reveals a large number of low level triumvirates) makes it plausible that this change could have been thought up and introduced.

On 2021-10-22, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

> You assume that bad leadership comes only from madness, and not from
> more mundane sings like greed and hunger for power.

Don't forget good intentions.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 2:00:21 PM UTC-4, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 5:33:42 AM UTC+1, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:23:50 -0700, Paul S Person
> > <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > >>Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire (arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its emperors. If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no way of testing - that the empire would have been much more stable and would have lasted longer.
> > >
> > >Ah, but before Marcus (or Constantine), they had ... Caligula and ...
> > >Nero.
> > >
> > >An undending chain of either would have been quite disasterous, I
> > >suspect.
> >
> > Lots of perfectly good Roman emperors had not so good sons. You
> > mentioned Marcus Aurelius - well he begat Commodus....
> >
> > Similarly Claudius was having a pretty good run as emperor until he
> > adopted Nero...and Germanicus was a distinguished Roman general who
> > everyone expected to be a future emperor until he died too early and
> > gave Rome his son Caligula.
> (On Misc topics in this thread as well)
> I think that if the entire human race had only one skin tone (Lathe Of Heaven, at one point) we would still find quick ways to judge people. In the original Foundation series the diplomat who comes to wash his hands of the responsibility of protecting Trantor has a noticeable accent. While I have an unfortunate accent myself, I have to admit that discrimination by accent is probably one of the least arbitrary forms of discrimination, since a person's accent reflects the culture in which they grew up.
>
> While nurture is strong, there are enough uncanny stories about similarity between separated identical twins to suggest that clones might be surprisingly similar.
>
> I suspect that picking Roman Emperors is a nearly impossible problem as long as the Emperor is a warlord in a violent society with untreated epidemic disease, either of which have the potential to change the Emperor's character noticeably. (I do wonder if some modern day incidents with special forces are related to head injury).
>
> What advice could we give Cicero to save the Republic?

He could always slit his wrists. Or never leave his home town.

Cicero was as complicit in the fall of the republic as anyone. The more so as he pretended to be its defender while undermining it.

Good writer, though.

William Hyde

On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 12:24:26 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Moriarty
> <blu...@ivillage.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 7:02:36 AM UTC+11, Bice wrote:
> >> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:29:25 -0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
> >> Nicoll) wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <616eaecc....@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >> >Bice <eich...@comcastsucks.net> wrote:
> >> >>On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:19:01 -0600, David Johnston
> >> >><davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>On 2021-10-17 10:26 a.m., Bice wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>> also changed the Emperor into a group of evil clones, all to further
> >> >>>> the "diversity is good" message.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>What the hell does that have to do with "diversity is good"?
> >> >>
> >> >>OK, two people have called me out on this.
> >> >>
> >> >>The scene after Seldon's trial where he and Gaal are brought before
> >> >>the Emperor(s) - Hari flat out told the Cleons that part of the reason
> >> >>the empire is failing is because it's been run by the same white guy
> >> >>for centuries instead of incorporating diversity. They couldn't have
> >> >>made the message any clearer.
> >> >
> >> >They don't say white guy.
> >> To be fair, no, Hari didn't specifically say white guy. But he did
> >> specifically say the lack of diversity when it came to Emperors was
> >> part of the reason the empire was crumbling.
> >
> >Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire (arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its emperors. If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no way of testing - that the empire would have been much more stable and would have lasted longer.
> Ah, but before Marcus (or Constantine), they had ... Caligula and ...
> Nero.

Neither were fit to be dogcatcher, and both probably should have been executed for various crimes, but the empire didn't really suffer under either, as their advisors prevented any serious disasters. Had Caligula lived he might have incited a rebellion in Judea, though.

What we know of both comes mostly from their enemies. Nero was active in organizing relief during the fire, but this did not feature prominently in the histories. Instead they emphasized that he sang "The Sack of Troy" at one point.for example. He was still very popular at the time of his death.

Domitian received the same kind of bad press. But while Nero and Caligula were financial disasters, Domitian re-established the coinage, ushering in an age of prosperity from which the succeeding "good emperors" benefited.

He was assassinated all the same. As he said "Nobody believes in assassination plots against the emperor, except the emperor".

>
> An undending chain of either would have been quite disasterous, I
> suspect.

True.

William Hyde

On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 12:33:42 AM UTC-4, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:23:50 -0700, Paul S Person
> <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
> >>Which is an odd premise. One of the reasons the Roman Empire (arguably) crumbled was because of the varying quality of its emperors. If they'd managed to clone, say, Marcus Aurelius to be emperor-in-perpetuity, then I posit - with no evidence and no way of testing - that the empire would have been much more stable and would have lasted longer.
> >
> >Ah, but before Marcus (or Constantine), they had ... Caligula and ...
> >Nero.
> >
> >An undending chain of either would have been quite disasterous, I
> >suspect.
> Lots of perfectly good Roman emperors had not so good sons. You
> mentioned Marcus Aurelius - well he begat Commodus....
>
> Similarly Claudius was having a pretty good run as emperor until he
> adopted Nero...and Germanicus was a distinguished Roman general who
> everyone expected to be a future emperor until he died too early and
> gave Rome his son Caligula.

It's not so clear that Germanicus was all that good. He was praised as a foil to the dour Tiberius, and Suetonius (and hence Graves) made a big deal of him, but his record is not that sterling. His raids into Germany, in particular, were expensive and pointless. But good PR.

One of the military leaders under his command, one of the Vitellii, blamed him for a stupid mistake that cost a lot of the latter's soldiers - whether correctly or not I do not know. The Vitellii were a powerful clan in the first century (one became emperor, unwisely and briefly) but unpopular enough that their enmity was not a factor in his popularity.

Though that same Vitellius, IIRC, held a senior post in Syria at the time Germanicus died there.

William Hyde

Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote in
news:slrnsn63re.29s4.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de:

> On 2021-10-22, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You assume that bad leadership comes only from madness, and not
>> from more mundane sings like greed and hunger for power.
>
> Don't forget good intentions.
>
Ah, yes, the malice ridden do-gooder, the most dangerous zealot of
all.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

In article <v8r5ngdffth4gia048npsd3ckh8vvp99fg@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

> On 22 Oct 2021 16:34:51 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
> <tednolan>) wrote:
>
> >Tacitus made the point that Augustus reigned for so long that by the
> >time he died very few people alive remembered Republican government,
> >and nobody remembered *good* Republican government.
>
> That's a very good quote since the halcyon days of the republic ended
> at least 30 years before Julius Caesar and the first triumvirate.

I think more than 70 years; the murders of the Gracchi brothers were,
IMHO, a sign that a descent into hell was awaiting the Roman Republic.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 7:25:29 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote in
> news:slrnsn63re...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de:
> > On 2021-10-22, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
> > <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> You assume that bad leadership comes only from madness, and not
> >> from more mundane sings like greed and hunger for power.
> >
> > Don't forget good intentions.
> >
> Ah, yes, the malice ridden do-gooder, the most dangerous zealot of
> all.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims
may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber
barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's
cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be
satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us
without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

- CS Lewis

Pt

On 2021-10-23, pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

> “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims
> may be the most oppressive.

ObSF: Jack Williamson, "With Folded Hands" / _The Humanoids_

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 12:10:17 AM UTC-4, Titus G wrote:
> On 21/10/21 9:11 am, William Hyde wrote:
> snip
> >
> > Ruth Rendell's "The Blood Doctor" is a departure from her normal sort
> > of mystery (though there is a mystery, of course!). The title
> > character is a specialist in haemophilia in Victoria's time, rather
> > than the protagonist of a horror movie. The story is narrated by his
> > great-grandson who finds his own life oddly paralleling his famous
> > ancestor's. Highly recommended.
> .
> Thank you. I rated _A Sight for Sore Eyes_ 5 stars;
> _Adam and Eve andPinch Me_ 4 stars
> for the weirdly fascinating characters but others I have read have been
> pleasing but ordinary.

I venture to recommend the followup novel to "sight", "The Vault". It is a Wexford novel, with less of the weirdly fascinating characters of the earlier book, though. But the story of how Wexford finds out what happened in the earlier work, and what has happened since, worked for me.

In general I think you'll find more of what you like in her novels published as Barbara Vine. "The Minotaur" comes to mind.

William Hyde

On 25/10/21 10:26 am, William Hyde wrote:
> On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 12:10:17 AM UTC-4, Titus G wrote:
>> On 21/10/21 9:11 am, William Hyde wrote:
>> snip
>>>
>>> Ruth Rendell's "The Blood Doctor" is a departure from her normal sort
>>> of mystery (though there is a mystery, of course!). The title
>>> character is a specialist in haemophilia in Victoria's time, rather
>>> than the protagonist of a horror movie. The story is narrated by his
>>> great-grandson who finds his own life oddly paralleling his famous
>>> ancestor's. Highly recommended.
>> .
>> Thank you. I rated _A Sight for Sore Eyes_ 5 stars;
>> _Adam and Eve andPinch Me_ 4 stars
>> for the weirdly fascinating characters but others I have read have been
>> pleasing but ordinary.
>
> I venture to recommend the followup novel to "sight", "The Vault". It is a Wexford novel, with less of the weirdly fascinating characters of the earlier book, though. But the story of how Wexford finds out what happened in the earlier work, and what has happened since, worked for me.

Yes, I agree. I have read that one and enjoyed it but as you write, the
characters were less impressive. I read the first three Wrexfords after
that but rated them as pot boilers but will read more.

> In general I think you'll find more of what you like in her novels published as Barbara Vine. "The Minotaur" comes to mind.

Thank you. I will try that. I did not finish "A Dark Adapted Eye" and
only vaguely remember it as being slow and dull despite all the
favourable reviews. However I am now reading "The Blood Doctor" and am
loving it despite the labyrinths of family trees. Again the characters
are fascinating but not in a weird way. The plot is developing very
slowly but I am enjoying the mood; the balance between the protagonist's
life problems and the slow discovery of details through his biographical
research. (I might not have gone back to Vine so thank you again.)