This post might be on-topic for anyone wanting to write a fantasy story set in
the 19th century, or the part of the 20th century before the First World War.
I had already posted about this to two other newsgroups where it was more
on-topic, but without any germane replies.

In 1912, in the city of Wroclaw, then called Breslau, and then in Germany, there
was a chess game between one Levitsky and one Marshall which ended with a
Queen sacrifice so impressive that, according to some accounts, many of the
spectators tossed gold coins at the chessboard.
Some writers have expressed doubt about whether that happened, but I
tend to be willing to believe Frank Marshall's account. But there was one
question in my mind: why would anyone, let alone many of the people in the
audience, be carrying gold coins around in their pockets?
I mean, this seems as though it's something basic that would have to be
possible before we could believe that this happened.

Back in those days, nearly every country did mint gold coins.
But it was still true that for denominations larger than those of silver
coins, what was routinely used was paper money.

I did some thinking about this, and I came up with a possible explanation.

At one time, U.S. paper money stated, in addition to it being "legal tender
for all debts, public and private", that there was one exception to that:
payment on import duties.
The function of gold, even under the gold standard, was mainly for
exchanges between the central banks of different countries to
reconcile the case of a nonzero balance of payments.

But combine that insight with this fact: back then, they didn't have
credit cards or travellers' cheques.

One could, even back then, I suppose, go to a bank and change one's
money for that of another country. But it could be that the fees for
that service were high back then.
Obviously, just taking your own country's paper money to a foreign
merchant wouldn't work well. Such a merchant would be ill-equipped
to know if the money was genuine, and would not necessarily have
an idea of its value.
But gold coins... all you have to do is weigh them. (Yes, that's
oversimplified; one country's gold coins might be 10% copper,
and another country's gold coins might be 20% copper or
something...)
And back in those days, there were books published giving the
weight, fineness, and value of gold coins from all the different
countries around the world that issued them.

Such as this one:
https://archive.org/details/petersonscomplet00tbpe

And the chess game, in a German city, was between a Russian player
and an American one. So it's not unreasonable that many of the
spectators were international tourists, some of them from Russia
or the United States.

So is this when someone, in 1910, or 1890, or thereabouts, would be
carrying gold coins in his pocket instead of paper money, because
that's how they handled transferring money between different
countries for individuals, not just between banks, in those days?

John Savard

On 11/5/2021 3:07 AM, Quadibloc wrote:

> So is this when someone, in 1910, or 1890, or thereabouts, would be
> carrying gold coins in his pocket instead of paper money, because
> that's how they handled transferring money between different
> countries for individuals, not just between banks, in those days?

It seems likely that the tale grew with the telling. See:

https://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/marshall1.html

The first thing to remember about gold coins is that, then and now, gold
was a little too scarce and valuable to be useful as an every day medium
of exchange for individuals. The smallest gold coins likely to be seen
in Breslau were the German 10-mark coin and the Russian 5-ruble piece.
Both were similar in size to a U.S. $2.50 gold coin and contained about
1/8 ounce of gold.

In 1910, the average annual wage in Germany was about 1000 marks. So
each of those dime-sized coins equated to over 2 days of labor. Even
for the idle rich, that's a lot of money to pay for what was effectively
street entertainment.

On the other hand, then as now, wealthy people can and do wager such
amounts. It's more likely any "shower" of coins was the result of a
chess hustle.

As for people carrying gold coins, yes, it did occur, much like people
will carry $100 bills even today. While physical gold saw more use
in areas where banking was less accessible or government was less
stable, it's also possible that among wealthy punters, use of coins was
more commonplace than for day-to-day transactions.

--
Mike Benveniste -- mhb@murkyether.com (Clarification Required)
You don't have to sort of enhance reality. There is nothing
stranger than truth. -- Annie Leibovitz

In article <7c7d4f19-5be6-4876-bb6e-1a04c927ac80n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>This post might be on-topic for anyone wanting to write a fantasy story set in
>the 19th century, or the part of the 20th century before the First World War.
>I had already posted about this to two other newsgroups where it was more
>on-topic, but without any germane replies.
>
>In 1912, in the city of Wroclaw, then called Breslau, and then in
>Germany, there
>was a chess game between one Levitsky and one Marshall which ended with a
>Queen sacrifice so impressive that, according to some accounts, many of the
>spectators tossed gold coins at the chessboard.
>Some writers have expressed doubt about whether that happened, but I
>tend to be willing to believe Frank Marshall's account. But there was one
>question in my mind: why would anyone, let alone many of the people in the
>audience, be carrying gold coins around in their pockets?
>I mean, this seems as though it's something basic that would have to be
>possible before we could believe that this happened.
>
>Back in those days, nearly every country did mint gold coins.
>But it was still true that for denominations larger than those of silver
>coins, what was routinely used was paper money.
>
>I did some thinking about this, and I came up with a possible explanation.
>
>At one time, U.S. paper money stated, in addition to it being "legal tender
>for all debts, public and private", that there was one exception to that:
>payment on import duties.
>The function of gold, even under the gold standard, was mainly for
>exchanges between the central banks of different countries to
>reconcile the case of a nonzero balance of payments.
>
>But combine that insight with this fact: back then, they didn't have
>credit cards or travellers' cheques.
>
>One could, even back then, I suppose, go to a bank and change one's
>money for that of another country. But it could be that the fees for
>that service were high back then.
>Obviously, just taking your own country's paper money to a foreign
>merchant wouldn't work well. Such a merchant would be ill-equipped
>to know if the money was genuine, and would not necessarily have
>an idea of its value.
>But gold coins... all you have to do is weigh them. (Yes, that's
>oversimplified; one country's gold coins might be 10% copper,
>and another country's gold coins might be 20% copper or
>something...)
>And back in those days, there were books published giving the
>weight, fineness, and value of gold coins from all the different
>countries around the world that issued them.
>
>Such as this one:
>https://archive.org/details/petersonscomplet00tbpe
>
>And the chess game, in a German city, was between a Russian player
>and an American one. So it's not unreasonable that many of the
>spectators were international tourists, some of them from Russia
>or the United States.
>
>So is this when someone, in 1910, or 1890, or thereabouts, would be
>carrying gold coins in his pocket instead of paper money, because
>that's how they handled transferring money between different
>countries for individuals, not just between banks, in those days?

There's the plot element in Sayers's _Have His Carcase_ in which
a young man, his head full of romantic fantasies, fills his
pockets with gold coins (which he bought, for slightly more than
their face value) because [he thought] he was traveling abroad
where the locals might not accept Bank of England notes. Note
that is fiction, set in the 1930s, and all the other characters
think he must have been bonkers.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 7:45:03 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> There's the plot element in Sayers's _Have His Carcase_ in which
> a young man, his head full of romantic fantasies, fills his
> pockets with gold coins (which he bought, for slightly more than
> their face value) because [he thought] he was traveling abroad
> where the locals might not accept Bank of England notes. Note
> that is fiction, set in the 1930s, and all the other characters
> think he must have been bonkers.

But what was bonkers in the 1930s might have made perfect sense in
1910 or thereabouts. So my question remains unanswered - although
it's slightly positive evidence, as one reason someone might have a
false romantic idea is because at one past time it made sense.

John Savard

Michael Benveniste <mhb@murkyether.com> wrote in
news:16b4a7dc13314a43$1$3170321$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com:

> In 1910, the average annual wage in Germany was about 1000
> marks. So each of those dime-sized coins equated to over 2 days
> of labor. Even for the idle rich, that's a lot of money to pay
> for what was effectively street entertainment.
>
Ridiculous. The average wage in the US last year was a bit under
$70,000. 2 days of their labor is under $300 (assuming a 40 hour
week). A *lot* of people carry that much in cash on a regular basis.
Hell, some people (that is, ordinarly middle class people) spend that
much on groceries every week.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

In article <88137813-6b43-4560-9c21-62e557dec0aan@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 7:45:03 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> There's the plot element in Sayers's _Have His Carcase_ in which
>> a young man, his head full of romantic fantasies, fills his
>> pockets with gold coins (which he bought, for slightly more than
>> their face value) because [he thought] he was traveling abroad
>> where the locals might not accept Bank of England notes. Note
>> that is fiction, set in the 1930s, and all the other characters
>> think he must have been bonkers.
>
>But what was bonkers in the 1930s might have made perfect sense in
>1910 or thereabouts. So my question remains unanswered - although
>it's slightly positive evidence, as one reason someone might have a
>false romantic idea is because at one past time it made sense.

Well, his romantic ideas were encouraged by a trio of
unscrupulous people who wanted to kill him before he married a
foolish old woman for her money. They were able to convince him
that he was the true heir to the Russian throne...

Spoilers ensue, for those who haven't read the book/guessed it
already....

....

.... he had hemophilia.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>Michael Benveniste <mhb@murkyether.com> wrote in
>news:16b4a7dc13314a43$1$3170321$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com:
>
>> In 1910, the average annual wage in Germany was about 1000
>> marks. So each of those dime-sized coins equated to over 2 days
>> of labor. Even for the idle rich, that's a lot of money to pay
>> for what was effectively street entertainment.
>>
>Ridiculous. The average wage in the US last year was a bit under
>$70,000. 2 days of their labor is under $300 (assuming a 40 hour
>week). A *lot* of people carry that much in cash on a regular basis.
>Hell, some people (that is, ordinarly middle class people) spend that
>much on groceries every week.

Ah, but then they mainly use plastic to pay for those groceries, and
even if they carry cash, very few carry USD100 bills - the logical
analog of the gold coin of the era.

On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 7:07:14 AM UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
> This post might be on-topic for anyone wanting to write a fantasy story set in
> the 19th century, or the part of the 20th century before the First World War.
> I had already posted about this to two other newsgroups where it was more
> on-topic, but without any germane replies.
>
> In 1912, in the city of Wroclaw, then called Breslau, and then in Germany, there
> was a chess game between one Levitsky and one Marshall which ended with a
> Queen sacrifice so impressive that, according to some accounts, many of the
> spectators tossed gold coins at the chessboard.
> Some writers have expressed doubt about whether that happened, but I
> tend to be willing to believe Frank Marshall's account. But there was one
> question in my mind: why would anyone, let alone many of the people in the
> audience, be carrying gold coins around in their pockets?
> I mean, this seems as though it's something basic that would have to be
> possible before we could believe that this happened.
>
> Back in those days, nearly every country did mint gold coins.
> But it was still true that for denominations larger than those of silver
> coins, what was routinely used was paper money.
>
> I did some thinking about this, and I came up with a possible explanation..
>
> At one time, U.S. paper money stated, in addition to it being "legal tender
> for all debts, public and private", that there was one exception to that:
> payment on import duties.
> The function of gold, even under the gold standard, was mainly for
> exchanges between the central banks of different countries to
> reconcile the case of a nonzero balance of payments.
>
> But combine that insight with this fact: back then, they didn't have
> credit cards or travellers' cheques.
>
> One could, even back then, I suppose, go to a bank and change one's
> money for that of another country. But it could be that the fees for
> that service were high back then.
> Obviously, just taking your own country's paper money to a foreign
> merchant wouldn't work well. Such a merchant would be ill-equipped
> to know if the money was genuine, and would not necessarily have
> an idea of its value.
> But gold coins... all you have to do is weigh them. (Yes, that's
> oversimplified; one country's gold coins might be 10% copper,
> and another country's gold coins might be 20% copper or
> something...)
> And back in those days, there were books published giving the
> weight, fineness, and value of gold coins from all the different
> countries around the world that issued them.
>
> Such as this one:
> https://archive.org/details/petersonscomplet00tbpe
>
> And the chess game, in a German city, was between a Russian player
> and an American one. So it's not unreasonable that many of the
> spectators were international tourists, some of them from Russia
> or the United States.
>
> So is this when someone, in 1910, or 1890, or thereabouts, would be
> carrying gold coins in his pocket instead of paper money, because
> that's how they handled transferring money between different
> countries for individuals, not just between banks, in those days?
>
> John Savard
According to many reports, the RAF issues gold sovereigns to pilots who might be shot down behind enemy lines so they can buy their way out of there (I did hear that there may be a change to credit cards somewhere along the line). The following link not only supports this, but points to a site that gives some insight into the typical humour of the UK armed forces - generally a lot more heavy-handed than in general society https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/because-you-never-know-when-20-gold-sovereigns-might.37670/ - come to think of it, that's obvious just from the domain name.

On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 10:17:01 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
<mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:

>On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 7:07:14 AM UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
>> This post might be on-topic for anyone wanting to write a fantasy story set in
>> the 19th century, or the part of the 20th century before the First World War.
>> I had already posted about this to two other newsgroups where it was more
>> on-topic, but without any germane replies.
>>
>> In 1912, in the city of Wroclaw, then called Breslau, and then in Germany, there
>> was a chess game between one Levitsky and one Marshall which ended with a
>> Queen sacrifice so impressive that, according to some accounts, many of the
>> spectators tossed gold coins at the chessboard.
>> Some writers have expressed doubt about whether that happened, but I
>> tend to be willing to believe Frank Marshall's account. But there was one
>> question in my mind: why would anyone, let alone many of the people in the
>> audience, be carrying gold coins around in their pockets?
>> I mean, this seems as though it's something basic that would have to be
>> possible before we could believe that this happened.
>>
>> Back in those days, nearly every country did mint gold coins.
>> But it was still true that for denominations larger than those of silver
>> coins, what was routinely used was paper money.
>>
>> I did some thinking about this, and I came up with a possible explanation.
>>
>> At one time, U.S. paper money stated, in addition to it being "legal tender
>> for all debts, public and private", that there was one exception to that:
>> payment on import duties.
>> The function of gold, even under the gold standard, was mainly for
>> exchanges between the central banks of different countries to
>> reconcile the case of a nonzero balance of payments.
>>
>> But combine that insight with this fact: back then, they didn't have
>> credit cards or travellers' cheques.
>>
>> One could, even back then, I suppose, go to a bank and change one's
>> money for that of another country. But it could be that the fees for
>> that service were high back then.
>> Obviously, just taking your own country's paper money to a foreign
>> merchant wouldn't work well. Such a merchant would be ill-equipped
>> to know if the money was genuine, and would not necessarily have
>> an idea of its value.
>> But gold coins... all you have to do is weigh them. (Yes, that's
>> oversimplified; one country's gold coins might be 10% copper,
>> and another country's gold coins might be 20% copper or
>> something...)
>> And back in those days, there were books published giving the
>> weight, fineness, and value of gold coins from all the different
>> countries around the world that issued them.
>>
>> Such as this one:
>> https://archive.org/details/petersonscomplet00tbpe
>>
>> And the chess game, in a German city, was between a Russian player
>> and an American one. So it's not unreasonable that many of the
>> spectators were international tourists, some of them from Russia
>> or the United States.
>>
>> So is this when someone, in 1910, or 1890, or thereabouts, would be
>> carrying gold coins in his pocket instead of paper money, because
>> that's how they handled transferring money between different
>> countries for individuals, not just between banks, in those days?
>>
>> John Savard
>According to many reports, the RAF issues gold sovereigns to pilots who might be shot down behind enemy lines so they can buy their way out of there (I did hear that there may be a change to credit cards somewhere along the line).

I'm pretty sure that using an RAF credit card while behind enemy lines
comes under the heading of "Bad Plan". But it is exactly the sort of
lunacy that an REMF with an MBA would come up with.

>The following link not only supports this, but points to a site that gives some insight into the typical humour of the UK armed forces - generally a lot more heavy-handed than in general society https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/because-you-never-know-when-20-gold-sovereigns-might.37670/ - come to think of it, that's obvious just from the domain name.

In article <XnsADD9658398DBtaustincagmailcom@85.12.62.232>,
Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>Michael Benveniste <mhb@murkyether.com> wrote in
>news:16b4a7dc13314a43$1$3170321$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com:
>
>> In 1910, the average annual wage in Germany was about 1000
>> marks. So each of those dime-sized coins equated to over 2 days
>> of labor. Even for the idle rich, that's a lot of money to pay
>> for what was effectively street entertainment.
>>
>Ridiculous. The average wage in the US last year was a bit under
>$70,000. 2 days of their labor is under $300 (assuming a 40 hour
>week). A *lot* of people carry that much in cash on a regular basis.
>Hell, some people (that is, ordinarly middle class people) spend that
>much on groceries every week.

I asked Hal how much he spends on groceries per week, and he
said, "Two hundred to two hundred fifty."

Plus about $35 a month for cat food.

I guess we aren't ordinary. This doesn't surprise me.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On 11/5/2021 12:58 PM, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> Ridiculous. The average wage in the US last year was a bit under
> $70,000. 2 days of their labor is under $300 (assuming a 40 hour
> week). A*lot* of people carry that much in cash on a regular basis.
> Hell, some people (that is, ordinarly middle class people) spend that
> much on groceries every week.

Do a *lot* of people carry that much as one dime-sized coin or have
nothing smaller than a $100 bill and don't expect change? Do a *lot*
of people throw that much to an entertainer as a tip?

It's not the amount of money they carry, it's the transaction
granularity.

--
Mike Benveniste -- mhb@murkyether.com (Clarification Required)
You don't have to sort of enhance reality. There is nothing
stranger than truth. -- Annie Leibovitz

In article <16b4ba49a3e93711$1$3501385$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com>,
Michael Benveniste <mhb@murkyether.com> wrote:
>On 11/5/2021 12:58 PM, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>> Ridiculous. The average wage in the US last year was a bit under
>> $70,000. 2 days of their labor is under $300 (assuming a 40 hour
>> week). A*lot* of people carry that much in cash on a regular basis.
>> Hell, some people (that is, ordinarly middle class people) spend that
>> much on groceries every week.
>
>Do a *lot* of people carry that much as one dime-sized coin or have
>nothing smaller than a $100 bill and don't expect change? Do a *lot*
>of people throw that much to an entertainer as a tip?
>
>It's not the amount of money they carry, it's the transaction
>granularity.
>

I frequently carry hundreds of dollars in my wallet, but very much
dislike bills larger than $20. In particular, there are several ATMs
I have to avoid as they like to give $50s, and in one case $100s.
Nobody wants to make change for those.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 08:58:48 -0400, Michael Benveniste
<mhb@murkyether.com> wrote:

>On 11/5/2021 3:07 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>
>> So is this when someone, in 1910, or 1890, or thereabouts, would be
>> carrying gold coins in his pocket instead of paper money, because
>> that's how they handled transferring money between different
>> countries for individuals, not just between banks, in those days?
>
>It seems likely that the tale grew with the telling. See:
>
>https://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/marshall1.html
>
>The first thing to remember about gold coins is that, then and now, gold
>was a little too scarce and valuable to be useful as an every day medium
>of exchange for individuals. The smallest gold coins likely to be seen
>in Breslau were the German 10-mark coin and the Russian 5-ruble piece.
>Both were similar in size to a U.S. $2.50 gold coin and contained about
>1/8 ounce of gold.

Yup - I'm a chess player and certainly familiar with the career of
Frank Marshall (who was unquestionably the most gifted American player
of the first half of the 20th century or at least the era before WW2)
and am familiar with his game against Levitsky BUT BUT BUT

given the prize money chess players in that era typically played for
it would either be a very small shower or one or two rich fans being
carried away in a moment of excitement. Not quite the impact of a hole
in one in a present day Golf Masters event but darned close.

As someone who has directed 100+ tournaments (true) if somebody played
a finish as brilliant as the one in Levitsky-Marshall, Breslau 1912
(chess games are typically cited by the names of the White player,
Black player and the event) I would expect other games to be
temporarily suspended while Marshall took his well deserved standing
ovation - and as tournament director focus on restoring order once the
ovation ended. Also speaking as a tournament director it would be a
great honor to have had such a brilliancy played in a game in one of
my events.

Bottom line is that a top prize of US$ 10k in that era would have been
unheard of for nearly all events. I have no idea unless the prizes
were listed in the records of the event what they would have been but
no question, chess pros were not well paid in that era with the case
of Karl Schlechter (who had played in a world championship match in
1910) starving to death in 1918.

>In 1910, the average annual wage in Germany was about 1000 marks. So
>each of those dime-sized coins equated to over 2 days of labor. Even
>for the idle rich, that's a lot of money to pay for what was effectively
>street entertainment.
>
>On the other hand, then as now, wealthy people can and do wager such
>amounts. It's more likely any "shower" of coins was the result of a
>chess hustle.
>
>As for people carrying gold coins, yes, it did occur, much like people
>will carry $100 bills even today. While physical gold saw more use
>in areas where banking was less accessible or government was less
>stable, it's also possible that among wealthy punters, use of coins was
>more commonplace than for day-to-day transactions.

On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 13:28:36 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>There's the plot element in Sayers's _Have His Carcase_ in which
>a young man, his head full of romantic fantasies, fills his
>pockets with gold coins (which he bought, for slightly more than
>their face value) because [he thought] he was traveling abroad
>where the locals might not accept Bank of England notes. Note
>that is fiction, set in the 1930s, and all the other characters
>think he must have been bonkers.

I dunno - when my wife's grandfather brought his family from Poland to
Canada in 1939 (and had to cross the Third Reich by rail to get to
England for his transatlantic ship) he sold everything he had and
bought gold coins which he sewed into his family's clothing to be used
as "seed money" in their new country.

(He wasn't Jewish but knew he'd have to cross Germany by train and
simply didn't trust the Nazis not to seize whatever they could find.
Given he left Poland in early August 1939 I'd say this was not at all
an unreasonable fear)

On 5 Nov 2021 19:05:29 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>)
wrote:

>I frequently carry hundreds of dollars in my wallet, but very much
>dislike bills larger than $20. In particular, there are several ATMs
>I have to avoid as they like to give $50s, and in one case $100s.
>Nobody wants to make change for those.

While this has not been true for more than a year or two bank ATMs in
our area allow you to specify what type of bills you want when
withdrawing - $5, $20, $50, $100

Within the last 3 weeks I've withdrawn a couple of $50's for my son's
birthday gift.

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
news:JDdhJ.19091$6a3.7614@fx41.iad:

> Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>>Michael Benveniste <mhb@murkyether.com> wrote in
>>news:16b4a7dc13314a43$1$3170321$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com:
>>
>>> In 1910, the average annual wage in Germany was about 1000
>>> marks. So each of those dime-sized coins equated to over 2
>>> days of labor. Even for the idle rich, that's a lot of money
>>> to pay for what was effectively street entertainment.
>>>
>>Ridiculous. The average wage in the US last year was a bit under
>>$70,000. 2 days of their labor is under $300 (assuming a 40 hour
>>week). A *lot* of people carry that much in cash on a regular
>>basis. Hell, some people (that is, ordinarly middle class
>>people) spend that much on groceries every week.
>
> Ah, but then they mainly use plastic to pay for those groceries,
> and even if they carry cash, very few carry USD100 bills - the
> logical analog of the gold coin of the era.
>
Do you claim that is a universal truth? That *everybody* uses plastic
*all* *the* *time*?

If so, you're as stupid as he is.

Carrying a few hundred in cash is *common*.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:r241vo.15It@kithrup.com:

> In article <XnsADD9658398DBtaustincagmailcom@85.12.62.232>,
> Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Michael Benveniste <mhb@murkyether.com> wrote in
>>news:16b4a7dc13314a43$1$3170321$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com:
>>
>>> In 1910, the average annual wage in Germany was about 1000
>>> marks. So each of those dime-sized coins equated to over 2
>>> days of labor. Even for the idle rich, that's a lot of money
>>> to pay for what was effectively street entertainment.
>>>
>>Ridiculous. The average wage in the US last year was a bit under
>>$70,000. 2 days of their labor is under $300 (assuming a 40 hour
>>week). A *lot* of people carry that much in cash on a regular
>>basis. Hell, some people (that is, ordinarly middle class
>>people) spend that much on groceries every week.
>
> I asked Hal how much he spends on groceries per week, and he
> said, "Two hundred to two hundred fifty."
>
> Plus about $35 a month for cat food.
>
> I guess we aren't ordinary. This doesn't surprise me.
>
I doubt your income is average. In fact, I suspect it's anywhere near
$70k at this point in your lives, even combined. I could, of course,
be wrong, but you've said things that suggest you watch your money
pretty closely.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Michael Benveniste <mhb@murkyether.com> wrote in
news:16b4ba49a3e93711$1$3501385$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com:

> On 11/5/2021 12:58 PM, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>> Ridiculous. The average wage in the US last year was a bit
>> under $70,000. 2 days of their labor is under $300 (assuming a
>> 40 hour week). A*lot* of people carry that much in cash on a
>> regular basis. Hell, some people (that is, ordinarly middle
>> class people) spend that much on groceries every week.
>
> Do a *lot* of people carry that much as one dime-sized coin

There is no dime-sized coin worth $300, moron.

>or
> have nothing smaller than a $100 bill and don't expect change?

Is it your claim that - assuming the incident happened as related -
they three gold coins because they had nothing else?

If so, you're even stupider than you look.

> Do a *lot* of people throw that much to an entertainer as a tip?

Did a *lot* of people throw gold coins at the chess game? The only
description we have is "many spectators," but there's no indication
of how many spectators there were (or what percentage of the
population they represented), nor what percentage of them threw
gold coins.

And it is described that the queen sacrifice was *especially*
impressive, implying that it warranted an impressive response.
>
> It's not the amount of money they carry, it's the transaction
> granularity.
>
No, it's your claim that people carrying 2 days of income on their
persons in cash on their person is unusual. Which is a *stupid*
claim now, and very likely then, as well.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote in
news:iuldjoFjnkaU1@mid.individual.net:

> In article
> <16b4ba49a3e93711$1$3501385$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com>,
> Michael Benveniste <mhb@murkyether.com> wrote:
>>On 11/5/2021 12:58 PM, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>> Ridiculous. The average wage in the US last year was a bit
>>> under $70,000. 2 days of their labor is under $300 (assuming a
>>> 40 hour week). A*lot* of people carry that much in cash on a
>>> regular basis. Hell, some people (that is, ordinarly middle
>>> class people) spend that much on groceries every week.
>>
>>Do a *lot* of people carry that much as one dime-sized coin or
>>have nothing smaller than a $100 bill and don't expect change?
>>Do a *lot* of people throw that much to an entertainer as a tip?
>>
>>It's not the amount of money they carry, it's the transaction
>>granularity.
>>
>
> I frequently carry hundreds of dollars in my wallet, but very
> much dislike bills larger than $20. In particular, there are
> several ATMs I have to avoid as they like to give $50s, and in
> one case $100s. Nobody wants to make change for those.

That is because, as you say, "nobody wants to make change" (for
reasons good and bad). Were merchants in 1912 unwilling to make
change for gold coins? Do you have any evidence one way or the
other?

Also, what percentage of people in those day, in Germany had bank
accounts? How many merchants took checks? Credit cards didn't exist
then.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

In article <4h1bogdh1jbd9j6p3e4c1ab3dtacgf9q0g@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 13:28:36 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>There's the plot element in Sayers's _Have His Carcase_ in which
>>a young man, his head full of romantic fantasies, fills his
>>pockets with gold coins (which he bought, for slightly more than
>>their face value) because [he thought] he was traveling abroad
>>where the locals might not accept Bank of England notes. Note
>>that is fiction, set in the 1930s, and all the other characters
>>think he must have been bonkers.
>
>I dunno - when my wife's grandfather brought his family from Poland to
>Canada in 1939 (and had to cross the Third Reich by rail to get to
>England for his transatlantic ship) he sold everything he had and
>bought gold coins which he sewed into his family's clothing to be used
>as "seed money" in their new country.
>
>(He wasn't Jewish but knew he'd have to cross Germany by train and
>simply didn't trust the Nazis not to seize whatever they could find.
>Given he left Poland in early August 1939 I'd say this was not at all
>an unreasonable fear)

Your grandfather-in-law was a schmott guy.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote in
news:ds1bog1rths67uc4h5ork669k7f4etro9g@4ax.com:

> On 5 Nov 2021 19:05:29 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
> <tednolan>) wrote:
>
>>I frequently carry hundreds of dollars in my wallet, but very
>>much dislike bills larger than $20. In particular, there are
>>several ATMs I have to avoid as they like to give $50s, and in
>>one case $100s. Nobody wants to make change for those.
>
> While this has not been true for more than a year or two bank
> ATMs in our area allow you to specify what type of bills you
> want when withdrawing - $5, $20, $50, $100

I suspect it's more common where you live than most other places. I
know of one ATM that gives you the choice. Right next to another one
that doesn't. (And Behind the Orange Curtain in California is a place
where you'll see more people interested in carrying large
denomination bills than most places, given the wealth level here.)

I suspect it's a matter of "new ATMs do that, but old ones only get
replaces when they can't be repaired any more."

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Michael Benveniste <mhb@murkyether.com> wrote in
news:16b4ba49a3e93711$1$3501385$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com:

> On 11/5/2021 12:58 PM, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>> Ridiculous. The average wage in the US last year was a bit
>> under $70,000. 2 days of their labor is under $300 (assuming a
>> 40 hour week). A*lot* of people carry that much in cash on a
>> regular basis. Hell, some people (that is, ordinarly middle
>> class people) spend that much on groceries every week.
>
> Do a *lot* of people carry that much as one dime-sized coin or
> have nothing smaller than a $100 bill and don't expect change?
> Do a *lot* of people throw that much to an entertainer as a tip?
>
> It's not the amount of money they carry, it's the transaction
> granularity.
>
Another point to consider:

Credit cards didn't exist in 1912, cheques weren't as common, and the
repeated cycle of bank collapses in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries (the 1873 Panic was referred to as The Great Depression on
both sides of the pond until the 30s) left a lot of people unwilling
to trust in banks, especially given the perception (whether true or
not) that Jews owned all the banks.

How many people even *had* bank accounts in 1912? National currency
was only a few decades old in Germany then, and paper versions of it
a bit younger. Of *course* they carried plenty of specie.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
news:14raogla2q4p26s575kp0temin4co4duqv@4ax.com:

> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 10:17:01 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
> <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>
>>On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 7:07:14 AM UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> This post might be on-topic for anyone wanting to write a
>>> fantasy story set in the 19th century, or the part of the 20th
>>> century before the First World War. I had already posted about
>>> this to two other newsgroups where it was more on-topic, but
>>> without any germane replies.
>>>
>>> In 1912, in the city of Wroclaw, then called Breslau, and then
>>> in Germany, there was a chess game between one Levitsky and
>>> one Marshall which ended with a Queen sacrifice so impressive
>>> that, according to some accounts, many of the spectators
>>> tossed gold coins at the chessboard. Some writers have
>>> expressed doubt about whether that happened, but I tend to be
>>> willing to believe Frank Marshall's account. But there was one
>>> question in my mind: why would anyone, let alone many of the
>>> people in the audience, be carrying gold coins around in their
>>> pockets? I mean, this seems as though it's something basic
>>> that would have to be possible before we could believe that
>>> this happened.
>>>
>>> Back in those days, nearly every country did mint gold coins.
>>> But it was still true that for denominations larger than those
>>> of silver coins, what was routinely used was paper money.
>>>
>>> I did some thinking about this, and I came up with a possible
>>> explanation.
>>>
>>> At one time, U.S. paper money stated, in addition to it being
>>> "legal tender for all debts, public and private", that there
>>> was one exception to that: payment on import duties.
>>> The function of gold, even under the gold standard, was mainly
>>> for exchanges between the central banks of different countries
>>> to reconcile the case of a nonzero balance of payments.
>>>
>>> But combine that insight with this fact: back then, they
>>> didn't have credit cards or travellers' cheques.
>>>
>>> One could, even back then, I suppose, go to a bank and change
>>> one's money for that of another country. But it could be that
>>> the fees for that service were high back then.
>>> Obviously, just taking your own country's paper money to a
>>> foreign merchant wouldn't work well. Such a merchant would be
>>> ill-equipped to know if the money was genuine, and would not
>>> necessarily have an idea of its value.
>>> But gold coins... all you have to do is weigh them. (Yes,
>>> that's oversimplified; one country's gold coins might be 10%
>>> copper, and another country's gold coins might be 20% copper
>>> or something...)
>>> And back in those days, there were books published giving the
>>> weight, fineness, and value of gold coins from all the
>>> different countries around the world that issued them.
>>>
>>> Such as this one:
>>> https://archive.org/details/petersonscomplet00tbpe
>>>
>>> And the chess game, in a German city, was between a Russian
>>> player and an American one. So it's not unreasonable that many
>>> of the spectators were international tourists, some of them
>>> from Russia or the United States.
>>>
>>> So is this when someone, in 1910, or 1890, or thereabouts,
>>> would be carrying gold coins in his pocket instead of paper
>>> money, because that's how they handled transferring money
>>> between different countries for individuals, not just between
>>> banks, in those days?
>>>
>>> John Savard
>>According to many reports, the RAF issues gold sovereigns to
>>pilots who might be shot down behind enemy lines so they can buy
>>their way out of there (I did hear that there may be a change to
>>credit cards somewhere along the line).
>
> I'm pretty sure that using an RAF credit card while behind enemy
> lines comes under the heading of "Bad Plan".

It is possible, you know, to get custom branded credit cards.
Especially when one is the government. One could even get one that
looks (and acts, so far as the merchant is concerned) exactly like
one issued by a local bank.

> But it is exactly
> the sort of lunacy that an REMF with an MBA would come up with.

That, too, is true.

Or it could be a joke. Abou REMFs with an MBA, who are, after all,
easy targets.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 12:37:13 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On 5 Nov 2021 19:05:29 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>)
>wrote:
>
>>I frequently carry hundreds of dollars in my wallet, but very much
>>dislike bills larger than $20. In particular, there are several ATMs
>>I have to avoid as they like to give $50s, and in one case $100s.
>>Nobody wants to make change for those.
>
>While this has not been true for more than a year or two bank ATMs in
>our area allow you to specify what type of bills you want when
>withdrawing - $5, $20, $50, $100
>
>Within the last 3 weeks I've withdrawn a couple of $50's for my son's
>birthday gift.

There was a standing gag at Pioneer Parachute. Every Monday Ed
Vickery would whip out a hundred and ask if anybody had change. Don
Brown, who owned a coin laundry, would change it for him.

On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 3:07:14 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> This post might be on-topic for anyone wanting to write a fantasy story set in
> the 19th century, or the part of the 20th century before the First World War.
> I had already posted about this to two other newsgroups where it was more
> on-topic, but without any germane replies.
>
> In 1912, in the city of Wroclaw, then called Breslau, and then in Germany, there
> was a chess game between one Levitsky and one Marshall which ended with a
> Queen sacrifice so impressive that, according to some accounts, many of the
> spectators tossed gold coins at the chessboard.
> Some writers have expressed doubt about whether that happened, but I
> tend to be willing to believe Frank Marshall's account.

More fool you. Marshall was a great chess player, and a great self-promoter, but does not have a sterling reputation otherwise. Ask Kashdan or Edward Lasker.

Marshall's wife maintained they didn't even throw pennies.

But there was one
> question in my mind: why would anyone, let alone many of the people in the
> audience, be carrying gold coins around in their pockets?
> I mean, this seems as though it's something basic that would have to be
> possible before we could believe that this happened.

The cheapest German gold coin I've been able to find in circulation before the war was ten marks. That would be not far from a hundred dollars purchasing power in today's money. Chess audiences did not have that kind of money to literally throw around.

>
> Back in those days, nearly every country did mint gold coins.
> But it was still true that for denominations larger than those of silver
> coins, what was routinely used was paper money.
>
> I did some thinking about this, and I came up with a possible explanation..
>
> At one time, U.S. paper money stated, in addition to it being "legal tender
> for all debts, public and private", that there was one exception to that:
> payment on import duties.
> The function of gold, even under the gold standard, was mainly for
> exchanges between the central banks of different countries to
> reconcile the case of a nonzero balance of payments.
>
> But combine that insight with this fact: back then, they didn't have
> credit cards or travellers' cheques.
>
> One could, even back then, I suppose, go to a bank and change one's
> money for that of another country. But it could be that the fees for
> that service were high back then.
> Obviously, just taking your own country's paper money to a foreign
> merchant wouldn't work well. Such a merchant would be ill-equipped
> to know if the money was genuine, and would not necessarily have
> an idea of its value.

All of the above was nonsense. International travel at the time was frequent, and money changing was not a problem. Breslau was a big city and finding a reputable money changer would be no problem.

> But gold coins... all you have to do is weigh them. (Yes, that's
> oversimplified; one country's gold coins might be 10% copper,
> and another country's gold coins might be 20% copper or
> something...)
> And back in those days, there were books published giving the
> weight, fineness, and value of gold coins from all the different
> countries around the world that issued them.
>
> Such as this one:
> https://archive.org/details/petersonscomplet00tbpe
>
> And the chess game, in a German city, was between a Russian player
> and an American one. So it's not unreasonable that many of the
> spectators were international tourists, some of them from Russia
> or the United States.

Yes, it is very unreasonable. The thought of tourists traveling hundreds or thousands of miles to attend a run-of-the-mill tournament is absurd. And Breslau, in the heart of Silesia, was not a tourist destination. It wasn't far from the border with Russia (i.e. Poland) so there may have been some Polish attendees but the only Americans there were probably Marshall and anyone who came with him.

Now, if this had been one of the tournaments held in resorts like Ostend or Monte Carlo, or bigger cities like London or Paris, there would have been a crop of tourists/travelers there already, some of which might attend a tournament. And a number of students (Breslau had a university which Edward Lasker fought hard to avoid attending - that is why he became an engineer instead of a doctor) who were not likely to be throwing any coins.

>
> So is this when someone, in 1910, or 1890, or thereabouts, would be
> carrying gold coins in his pocket instead of paper money, because
> that's how they handled transferring money between different
> countries for individuals, not just between banks, in those days?

Gold coins existed in denominations small enough for comfortably off people to carry them about. In the past it was not unknown for me to have a $100 bill or two in my wallet. So possibly some of the richer members of the audience had a gold coin or two to throw. But they didn't.

William Hyde