On Mon, 8 Nov 2021 17:35:38 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <4okiogpjc8e74usrt2gend0s7j7l6e8gpf@4ax.com>,
>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>For a while, one of my banks, every month, charged me $1 for enclosing
>>the cancelled checks ("check enclosure charge") and /paid/ me $1 for
>>having direct deposit ("direct deposit credit"). This cannot have made
>>any sense -- saying "check enclosure charge of $1/mo is waived if you
>>have direct deposit" in their Terms would have avoided the cost and
>>trouble of actually charging/crediting the account.
>
>Nowadays, (a) Hal writes many fewer checks, and (b) the bank
>attaches images of the checks he writes in the online statement.
>I write one or two checks per year, and use my debit card for
>things on Amazon or somebody that I actually *need* and don't
>cost very much.

I copy front-and-back from the online site for any checks I write.

The images on the statement (and the front images online) aren't
sufficient, IMHO, because they /do not show the amount paid/ and so
are not proof that the money ever left the account. The back at least
shows it was deposited.

(For those who never noticed or have forgotten: actual
returned-after-processing checks had the amount actually paid out in
the lower right-hand corner [the blank space conveniently following
the account number]).

One of the very few times I ever actually /used/ a check image
involved convincing my bank to actually pay the rest of the money
clearly shown on the check as written to the intended recipient,
rather than just the smaller amount encoded on the check (and actually
deducted from my account). But you never know what might come in handy
some day.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 15:53:38 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
<taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>news:4okiogpjc8e74usrt2gend0s7j7l6e8gpf@4ax.com:
>
>> On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 02:44:54 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>news:fvvfogdoogn0tvgmud31satnrao6u49bm1@4ax.com:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 02:58:13 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
>>>> <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sunday, 7 November 2021 at 04:42:24 UTC, The Horny Goat
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 07 Nov 2021 03:30:29 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>>>>>> <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >> and vide the pandemic a lot of retailers no longer
>>>>>> >> accept cash, anyway.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >Any store that does there here tends to get either
>>>>>> >protestors outside their doors, or unwanted attention from
>>>>>> >activists (for the unbanked) or politicians. Or both.
>>>>>> In the early days of the pandemic many stores didn't like
>>>>>> cash BUT when the schools re-opened the provincial health
>>>>>> officer said that in situations where both parties were
>>>>>> masked and basic hand-washing was taking place that there
>>>>>> had been NO cases where Covid had been spread by handling
>>>>>> paper alone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now she was talking about school classroom situations but
>>>>>> after that news release cash started making a strong
>>>>>> comeback.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At this time if a store rejected my cash I'd leave my
>>>>>> purchase at the cashier and go elsewhere though for me at
>>>>>> this time it's usually about 70% debit, 25% cash and only
>>>>>> rarely Visa for in-person purchases.
>>>>>
>>>>>In Scotland, we're told that contactless card payments
>>>>>are preferred, but I've had card payment refused by a
>>>>>clerk for small purchases - that may or may not reflect
>>>>>current fees - and at the moment, I offer cash for that.
>>>>>I think the clerk takes money and makes change, then
>>>>>washes or "sanitises" their hands immediately.
>>>>>
>>>>>And there's TV adverts for apparently a new system
>>>>>allowing self-employed people to take card payment
>>>>>by smart phone. The sole trader declares "I take card
>>>>>now" and several people around them go "Ooh" at
>>>>>high pitch and for an extremely long time. This is in
>>>>>the advert; it's very annoying and it motivates me to
>>>>>pay cash deliberately. I haven't seen it in real life;
>>>>>I suppose it would be my role to go "Ooh". I intend
>>>>>not to.
>>>>
>>>> I think that, like depositing checks, we've had that
>>>> capability here for some time.
>>>>
>>>> Not me, of course; I don't do smartphones. But I think it has
>>>> been available for businesspersons that are interested.
>>>
>>>The ads never mention the fees.
>>>
>>>There's a reason they don't.
>>
>> Well, of course there is.
>>
>> Gotta get customers /somehow/.
>>
>> For a while, one of my banks, every month, charged me $1 for
>> enclosing the cancelled checks ("check enclosure charge") and
>> /paid/ me $1 for having direct deposit ("direct deposit
>> credit"). This cannot have made any sense -- saying "check
>> enclosure charge of $1/mo is waived if you have direct deposit"
>> in their Terms would have avoided the cost and trouble of
>> actually charging/crediting the account.
>
>I suspect they just don't want to admit out loud that they're
>trying to force you to forgo returned checks, which are a hassle
>for them. Many banks don't even have the option any more.

Didn't want to. This was quite some time ago.

I'm not even sure it's an option now, at any price.

Images of the front of each check do appear on the statement.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Des <desmondkavanagh@gmail.com> wrote in
news:08f0dab2-89f5-46a0-a9c4-9b4820d17f7dn@googlegroups.com:

> On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 11:57:02 PM UTC, Jibini Kula
> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>
>> Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
> SNIP
>
> END SNIP
>> > In Australia, apparently, things are different.
>> Many USAians tend to refer to people from Austria as "fucking
>> Nazis" anyway. (Due entirely to the utter lack of historical
>> education in US schools.)
>> --
>> Terry Austin
>
> Yes, a difficult attitude to understand, given such sterling
> examples of humanity as the individual listed on this birth
> certificate of an Austrian citizen:
> https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=188078

But what have you done for us *lately*?

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 20:57:48 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 08:44:37 -0800, Paul S Person
><psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Well, of course there is.
>>
>>Gotta get customers /somehow/.
>>
>>For a while, one of my banks, every month, charged me $1 for enclosing
>>the cancelled checks ("check enclosure charge") and /paid/ me $1 for
>>having direct deposit ("direct deposit credit"). This cannot have made
>>any sense -- saying "check enclosure charge of $1/mo is waived if you
>>have direct deposit" in their Terms would have avoided the cost and
>>trouble of actually charging/crediting the account.
>
>I've been getting 1/2 sized copies of my cheques as part of my monthly
>statement for about 5 years now as part of a free download from their
>website. You can get the actual document for 60-90 days (for a fee!)
>but have never needed to do so.
>
>From their point of view providing the info this way is cheaper than
>the way you and I are used to and most of the time is good. With our
>business account our accountant gets monthly copies of our statements
>from us and there are often queries about this or that transaction but
>it's pretty basic.

I save them mostly as a precaution.

I have rarely had an actual use for them.

But I can never be entirely sure one or another of them won't be
needed some day.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 21:02:48 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 15:56:39 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
><taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Many USAians tend to refer to people from Austria as "fucking
>>Nazis" anyway. (Due entirely to the utter lack of historical
>>education in US schools.)
>
>To the extent they do it's related to Mr Waldheim who in addition to
>being elected their head of state by the Austrians went on to become
>Secretary-General of the United Nations before being exposed for his
>activities 1938-45.
>
>Besides the von Trapps what other Austrian was known to be strongly
>anti-Nazi?

Never underestimate the cultural harm done by a very popular motion
picture!
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:36:33 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt"
<grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:

>The change she came back with surprised me...
>
>Now, I don't care what coinage your country may issue, I strongly doubt
>any of it is as cool as a $2 "Wags The Dog" coin. :-)
>
><https://www.ramint.gov.au/publications/celebrating-30-years-wiggles>

So is this a general circulation coin or is it a collectors only
commemorative coin?

On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 06:34:17 -0800 (PST), Jack Bohn
<jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:

>Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 4:57:02 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>
>> > Many USAians tend to refer to people from Austria as "fucking
>> > Nazis" anyway. (Due entirely to the utter lack of historical
>> > education in US schools.)
>> And they must not be watching The Sound of Music these days when it
>> comes on television!
>
>I've always thought of The Sound of Music as something that would just happen to me.
>Yet so far I have only seen bits and pieces in someone else's house.

Lucky you.

In /Addams Family Values/, it's used as a torture device.

(It's actually not that bad -- it just isn't all that good, either.
It's basically a standard musical in the "South Pacific"/"The King and
I"/ tradition: two love stories, one involving mature people who get
together at the end, and one involving rebellious young people, which
ends in disaster. IOW, it is firmly on the "adult" side of the Great
Divide. As opposed to, say, /Mary Poppins/, which is firmly on the
"kids" side.)
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

In article <27blogpa8vu2ech2lrtrnr4ukt33fmtp1t@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:36:33 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt"
><grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:
>
>>The change she came back with surprised me...
>>
>>Now, I don't care what coinage your country may issue, I strongly doubt
>>any of it is as cool as a $2 "Wags The Dog" coin. :-)
>>
>><https://www.ramint.gov.au/publications/celebrating-30-years-wiggles>
>
>So is this a general circulation coin or is it a collectors only
>commemorative coin?

I saw the original Wiggles in concert once -- they put on a fun show.
Never was that wild about Wags, Henry or Dorothy though -- it could be anyone
inside those suits. Now, Cpt. Feathersword -- there was a showman.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 20:59:08 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 08:49:08 -0800, Paul S Person
><psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 13:40:01 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
>><petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 11:36:52 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 21:35:23 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt" .

<snip to start of discussion>

>>>> >Important point - we are "Aussies". "Ozzy" means Austrian. (And,
>>>> >sadly, both nations are becoming stupider as time passes. Sigh,
>>>> >eventually we'll all be as stupid as the USA.)
>>>> In Australia, no doubt.
>>>>
>>>> But here in the USA, I'm not sure the distinction is well-defined.
>>>
>>>I've *never* heard 'Ozzy' used to refer to Austrians. The use of 'Oz'
>>>to refer to Australia is well known though.
>>
>>I suggest that, since "Oz" is used for Australia, "Ozzy" would be
>>understood to refer to Australians, were it ever used. In the USA.
>>
>>In Australia, apparently, things are different.
>
>Well I certainly hope most of your information on Australia is coming
>from the several Monty Python Australian sketches......that's the only
>time I've recently heard 'Ozzy' in any respect other than Mr Osborne.

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say.

My last statement is an /admission/ that Australia apparently uses
"Ozzie" for "Austrian -- as stated by the first bit.

I also admitted that I don't know of "Ozzie" being used in the USA for
/any/ Nation [1], but merely pointing out that, since Australia is
sometimes referred to as "Oz", "Ozzie", were it used, would probably
be taken to refer to Australians.

But perhaps thought you were responding to Gary R Schmidt.

[1] I am amazed that nobody has pointed to "Ozzie and Harriet" as an
example of the use of "Ozzie" in the USA. Not, to be sure, as a
nationality.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:albloghkrahgean96i6lqv8oqssppd2qri@4ax.com:

> On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 20:59:08 -0800, The Horny Goat
> <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 08:49:08 -0800, Paul S Person
>><psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 13:40:01 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
>>><petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 11:36:52 AM UTC-5, Paul S
>>>>Person wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 21:35:23 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt" .
>
> <snip to start of discussion>
>
>>>>> >Important point - we are "Aussies". "Ozzy" means Austrian.
>>>>> >(And, sadly, both nations are becoming stupider as time
>>>>> >passes. Sigh, eventually we'll all be as stupid as the
>>>>> >USA.)
>>>>> In Australia, no doubt.
>>>>>
>>>>> But here in the USA, I'm not sure the distinction is
>>>>> well-defined.
>>>>
>>>>I've *never* heard 'Ozzy' used to refer to Austrians. The use
>>>>of 'Oz' to refer to Australia is well known though.
>>>
>>>I suggest that, since "Oz" is used for Australia, "Ozzy" would
>>>be understood to refer to Australians, were it ever used. In
>>>the USA.
>>>
>>>In Australia, apparently, things are different.
>>
>>Well I certainly hope most of your information on Australia is
>>coming from the several Monty Python Australian
>>sketches......that's the only time I've recently heard 'Ozzy' in
>>any respect other than Mr Osborne.
>
> I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say.
>
> My last statement is an /admission/ that Australia apparently
> uses "Ozzie" for "Austrian -- as stated by the first bit.
>
> I also admitted that I don't know of "Ozzie" being used in the
> USA for /any/ Nation [1], but merely pointing out that, since
> Australia is sometimes referred to as "Oz", "Ozzie", were it
> used, would probably be taken to refer to Australians.
>
> But perhaps thought you were responding to Gary R Schmidt.
>
> [1] I am amazed that nobody has pointed to "Ozzie and Harriet"
> as an example of the use of "Ozzie" in the USA. Not, to be sure,
> as a nationality.

Ozzy Osbourne is far, far, *far* more recognizable in the US these
days, even if one is not a fan of his "music."

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

In article <9c802450-d989-48f5-a822-40298a15c17en@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 10:02:53 PM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
>
> > Besides the von Trapps what other Austrian was known to be strongly
> > anti-Nazi?
>
> Didn't the Nazis have to shoot some guy named Dollfuss because he failed
> to welcome them with open arms?
>

Sounds more like a competitor to me (as were some of the victims of the
"Night of Long Knives" several weeks before Dollfuss's assassination).

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 09:11:38 -0800, Paul S Person
<psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>I save them mostly as a precaution.
>
>I have rarely had an actual use for them.
>
>But I can never be entirely sure one or another of them won't be
>needed some day.

Well that is the case with MOST 'safety equipment' - I faithfully use
the seatbelt in my car despite the fact in 40 years of driving it's
only really been needed twice.

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 09:16:00 -0800, Paul S Person
<psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>>Besides the von Trapps what other Austrian was known to be strongly
>>anti-Nazi?
>
>Never underestimate the cultural harm done by a very popular motion
>picture!

I assure you that had von Trapp been forced to work for the Nazis (he
was Austria's top WW1 submarine captain - and sunk 13 Allied ships -
the Nazis wanted him to train U-boat crews) he would have done far
more damage to the Allies than his family's style of music.

On 2021-11-09, Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 20:57:48 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 08:44:37 -0800, Paul S Person
>><psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>Well, of course there is.
>>>
>>>Gotta get customers /somehow/.
>>>
>>>For a while, one of my banks, every month, charged me $1 for enclosing
>>>the cancelled checks ("check enclosure charge") and /paid/ me $1 for
>>>having direct deposit ("direct deposit credit"). This cannot have made
>>>any sense -- saying "check enclosure charge of $1/mo is waived if you
>>>have direct deposit" in their Terms would have avoided the cost and
>>>trouble of actually charging/crediting the account.
>>
>>I've been getting 1/2 sized copies of my cheques as part of my monthly
>>statement for about 5 years now as part of a free download from their
>>website. You can get the actual document for 60-90 days (for a fee!)
>>but have never needed to do so.
>>
>>From their point of view providing the info this way is cheaper than
>>the way you and I are used to and most of the time is good. With our
>>business account our accountant gets monthly copies of our statements
>>from us and there are often queries about this or that transaction but
>>it's pretty basic.
>
> I save them mostly as a precaution.
>
> I have rarely had an actual use for them.
>
> But I can never be entirely sure one or another of them won't be
> needed some day.

It used to be the case that a Medicaid nursing home application
required you to submit a copy of *all* checks you wrote within the past
5 years (I filed one of these for my step-father 15 years ago.) So if
you were elderly and couldn't afford $120,000 for 5 years, you made sure
that you kept copies of your checks!

Nowadays, the requirements have lessened in most places and you just
need to furnish copies of large checks (over $1000 or $2000) if
needed. Those you can afford to pay the $1-$5 per check fee that most
banks charge per copy.

Chris

On 9 Nov 2021 18:58:49 GMT, Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> wrote:

>It used to be the case that a Medicaid nursing home application
>required you to submit a copy of *all* checks you wrote within the past
>5 years (I filed one of these for my step-father 15 years ago.) So if
>you were elderly and couldn't afford $120,000 for 5 years, you made sure
>that you kept copies of your checks!
>
>Nowadays, the requirements have lessened in most places and you just
>need to furnish copies of large checks (over $1000 or $2000) if
>needed. Those you can afford to pay the $1-$5 per check fee that most
>banks charge per copy.

The thing is, copies of checks have been part of my downloadable bank
statements for at least 4-5 years and it's a plain old everyday
checking account. They ding me about $12/month for the 'privilege' but
I am definitely not talking about a brand new feature on my account.

For what it's worth these files download into a standard PDF so mostly
I keep them on my hard drive and rarely print them off.

(One of my great memories was my earliest days of grad school - I'm
from the west coast and the school was in the east so I had to set up
new accounts in the new location so naturally chose the bank I dealt
with back home. The teller was a sweetheart but insisted on "teaching"
me about the new-fangled ATM - this was early 1980s - and after
listening to her I said "with the greatest of respect ma'am I'm from
Vancouver and Vancouver and Calgary were chosen by your bank for their
trial of this new system. What I'm saying ma'am is that I've been
using this stuff you're trying to teach me about for more than two
years and if your branch manager feels ne or she needs a new trainer I
wouldn't mind a part time job while studying at (my university - the
branch was 2 blocks off campus). 6 months after graduation they
connected their network nationally and I no longer needed separate
accounts in the two ends of the country)

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 3:04:55 PM UTC-5, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On 9 Nov 2021 18:58:49 GMT, Chris Buckley <al...@sabir.com> wrote:
>
> >It used to be the case that a Medicaid nursing home application
> >required you to submit a copy of *all* checks you wrote within the past
> >5 years (I filed one of these for my step-father 15 years ago.) So if
> >you were elderly and couldn't afford $120,000 for 5 years, you made sure
> >that you kept copies of your checks!
> >
> >Nowadays, the requirements have lessened in most places and you just
> >need to furnish copies of large checks (over $1000 or $2000) if
> >needed. Those you can afford to pay the $1-$5 per check fee that most
> >banks charge per copy.
> The thing is, copies of checks have been part of my downloadable bank
> statements for at least 4-5 years and it's a plain old everyday
> checking account. They ding me about $12/month for the 'privilege' but
> I am definitely not talking about a brand new feature on my account.
>
> For what it's worth these files download into a standard PDF so mostly
> I keep them on my hard drive and rarely print them off.

Back in the early 80's I was working at Irving Trust, a large. old, major
money center bank on Wall Street. At least up through 1988, they kept
their copies of checks on microfilm, even as the vast majority of
transactions went pure electronic.

pt

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 11:51:10 AM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 09:16:00 -0800, Paul S Person
> <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:

> >>Besides the von Trapps what other Austrian was known to be strongly
> >>anti-Nazi?

> >Never underestimate the cultural harm done by a very popular motion
> >picture!

> I assure you that had von Trapp been forced to work for the Nazis (he
> was Austria's top WW1 submarine captain - and sunk 13 Allied ships -
> the Nazis wanted him to train U-boat crews) he would have done far
> more damage to the Allies than his family's style of music.

And, in any case, if we are talking about the _music_ being damaging to
the United States, Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein II would have
been in the United States composing songs regardless of where in the world
Georg von Trapp might have ended up.

John Savard

On 10/11/2021 04:16, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:36:33 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt"
> <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:
>
>> The change she came back with surprised me...
>>
>> Now, I don't care what coinage your country may issue, I strongly doubt
>> any of it is as cool as a $2 "Wags The Dog" coin. :-)
>>
>> <https://www.ramint.gov.au/publications/celebrating-30-years-wiggles>
>
> So is this a general circulation coin or is it a collectors only
> commemorative coin?
>
It's in general circulation - which is how the wean got it - and as part
of the special pack I linked to. :-)

Nothing like making coin to pat for coin!!

Cheers,
Gary B-)

Hi all

The thought that immediately occurs to me when people talk about 'gold currency' is: Terry Pratchet's early Disc World novels. I forget which one, but its the one with the tourist from the Aurient, who is paying everyone in the currency of his home empire.

A suspicious publican (I think it was a publican) takes one of the coin to a specialist and asks what its worth.

The specialist says something to the effect of: "Our gold coins are technically brass (or copper), containing almost no gold at all. These foreign coins contain only enough copper that they are just hard to discourage people from skimming them and casting their own denatured counterfiets." Basically Ankh-Morgport's currency is junk and the foreigner's coins are the real deal. The next line of text is the publican back at his place of business greeting the tourist with a "How can I possibly make your stay any more pleasant (and much, much longer)?"

I rather suspect that all real world currencies that claimed to be gold have operated on a very similar principle, probably since the time of Archimedes. Gold is just too valuable (and sometimes useful) to allowed to travel around in people's pockets.

Rome was rather famous for debasing its gold and silver currency with lead and tin (I think). Most of Rome's wars and epic construction programs basically depended on the government being able to take in a whole lot of moderately valuable coins and turn them into a substantially larger bunch of coins that while having the same face value contained significantly less precious metal. I don't know if the Roman citizens (or the neighboring nations/empires they traded with) ever quite grasped the scale of the fraud being perpertated by the Roman treasury. Might be why some nations, and some traders demanded to be paid in goods that were significantly more difficult to counterfeit, like ivory, and spices, and bullion style gold and silver the quality of which could be quickly and accurately accessed via measurements of mass and displacement.

I'm sure the Ancient Romans weren't the only ones who practiced this kind of deception and fraud, and they probably weren't the first either.

Which brings another thought to mind: Denmark and Sweden have curious laws about digging up Viking silver. There is so much around that they basically tax it discovery to make retrieving it and selling it uneconomical. Why? Because there is SO MUCH of the stuff buried in those two countries. If treasure hunters were allowed free reign they'd flood the international markets with so much silver as to cause serious economic woes. Curiously enough neither nation has a similar rule about gold. Gold you can dig up and sell, if you can find it, which no one seems to be able to do. Either it's because treasure hunters who find gold are too smart to brag about it, or because the Vikings didn't bury their gold.

Regards
Frank

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 10:47:18 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 09:11:38 -0800, Paul S Person
><psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>I save them mostly as a precaution.
>>
>>I have rarely had an actual use for them.
>>
>>But I can never be entirely sure one or another of them won't be
>>needed some day.
>
>Well that is the case with MOST 'safety equipment' - I faithfully use
>the seatbelt in my car despite the fact in 40 years of driving it's
>only really been needed twice.

Indeed. But I've known people who didn't see this as "safety
equipment". They also didn't back up their computers.

One of them even sent /original documents/ in (when copies would have
done) -- and didn't keep any copies. And /he/ got bit: what he sent
got misplaced and without any copies ...

The trick, of course, is not to get /too/ elaborate. Safety is one
thing; OCD is something else.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 9 Nov 2021 18:58:49 GMT, Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> wrote:

>On 2021-11-09, Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 20:57:48 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 08:44:37 -0800, Paul S Person
>>><psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Well, of course there is.
>>>>
>>>>Gotta get customers /somehow/.
>>>>
>>>>For a while, one of my banks, every month, charged me $1 for enclosing
>>>>the cancelled checks ("check enclosure charge") and /paid/ me $1 for
>>>>having direct deposit ("direct deposit credit"). This cannot have made
>>>>any sense -- saying "check enclosure charge of $1/mo is waived if you
>>>>have direct deposit" in their Terms would have avoided the cost and
>>>>trouble of actually charging/crediting the account.
>>>
>>>I've been getting 1/2 sized copies of my cheques as part of my monthly
>>>statement for about 5 years now as part of a free download from their
>>>website. You can get the actual document for 60-90 days (for a fee!)
>>>but have never needed to do so.
>>>
>>>From their point of view providing the info this way is cheaper than
>>>the way you and I are used to and most of the time is good. With our
>>>business account our accountant gets monthly copies of our statements
>>>from us and there are often queries about this or that transaction but
>>>it's pretty basic.
>>
>> I save them mostly as a precaution.
>>
>> I have rarely had an actual use for them.
>>
>> But I can never be entirely sure one or another of them won't be
>> needed some day.
>
>It used to be the case that a Medicaid nursing home application
>required you to submit a copy of *all* checks you wrote within the past
>5 years (I filed one of these for my step-father 15 years ago.) So if
>you were elderly and couldn't afford $120,000 for 5 years, you made sure
>that you kept copies of your checks!
>
>Nowadays, the requirements have lessened in most places and you just
>need to furnish copies of large checks (over $1000 or $2000) if
>needed. Those you can afford to pay the $1-$5 per check fee that most
>banks charge per copy.

Changes ripple through society, sometimes slowly, sometimes faster.

One of my brothers ended up in an adult community for physical rehab
for a few weeks so I got notices from them. Easter brunches -- ever
heard of those?

One of those notices announced (this was about 6 years ago) that they
were going to ban /smoking/ in their building as of a certain date.

IOW, they /finally/ caught up with the 80s. In 2014 or thereabouts.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 19:20:42 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 11:51:10 AM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 09:16:00 -0800, Paul S Person
>> <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> >>Besides the von Trapps what other Austrian was known to be strongly
>> >>anti-Nazi?
>
>> >Never underestimate the cultural harm done by a very popular motion
>> >picture!
>
>> I assure you that had von Trapp been forced to work for the Nazis (he
>> was Austria's top WW1 submarine captain - and sunk 13 Allied ships -
>> the Nazis wanted him to train U-boat crews) he would have done far
>> more damage to the Allies than his family's style of music.
>
>And, in any case, if we are talking about the _music_ being damaging to
>the United States, Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein II would have
>been in the United States composing songs regardless of where in the world
>Georg von Trapp might have ended up.

Actually, I was referring to the film in connection with the
"Austrians are Nazis" assertion.

OTOH, the music no doubt played a major role in the film's use as an
instrument of torture in /Addams Family Values/.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 09:46:57 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
<taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>news:albloghkrahgean96i6lqv8oqssppd2qri@4ax.com:
>
>> On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 20:59:08 -0800, The Horny Goat
>> <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 08:49:08 -0800, Paul S Person
>>><psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 13:40:01 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
>>>><petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 11:36:52 AM UTC-5, Paul S
>>>>>Person wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 21:35:23 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt" .
>>
>> <snip to start of discussion>
>>
>>>>>> >Important point - we are "Aussies". "Ozzy" means Austrian.
>>>>>> >(And, sadly, both nations are becoming stupider as time
>>>>>> >passes. Sigh, eventually we'll all be as stupid as the
>>>>>> >USA.)
>>>>>> In Australia, no doubt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But here in the USA, I'm not sure the distinction is
>>>>>> well-defined.
>>>>>
>>>>>I've *never* heard 'Ozzy' used to refer to Austrians. The use
>>>>>of 'Oz' to refer to Australia is well known though.
>>>>
>>>>I suggest that, since "Oz" is used for Australia, "Ozzy" would
>>>>be understood to refer to Australians, were it ever used. In
>>>>the USA.
>>>>
>>>>In Australia, apparently, things are different.
>>>
>>>Well I certainly hope most of your information on Australia is
>>>coming from the several Monty Python Australian
>>>sketches......that's the only time I've recently heard 'Ozzy' in
>>>any respect other than Mr Osborne.
>>
>> I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say.
>>
>> My last statement is an /admission/ that Australia apparently
>> uses "Ozzie" for "Austrian -- as stated by the first bit.
>>
>> I also admitted that I don't know of "Ozzie" being used in the
>> USA for /any/ Nation [1], but merely pointing out that, since
>> Australia is sometimes referred to as "Oz", "Ozzie", were it
>> used, would probably be taken to refer to Australians.
>>
>> But perhaps thought you were responding to Gary R Schmidt.
>>
>> [1] I am amazed that nobody has pointed to "Ozzie and Harriet"
>> as an example of the use of "Ozzie" in the USA. Not, to be sure,
>> as a nationality.
>
>Ozzy Osbourne is far, far, *far* more recognizable in the US these
>days, even if one is not a fan of his "music."

Indeed.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 4:17:36 AM UTC-5, Frank Scrooby wrote:
> Hi all
>
> The thought that immediately occurs to me when people talk about 'gold currency' is: Terry Pratchet's early Disc World novels. I forget which one, but its the one with the tourist from the Aurient, who is paying everyone in the currency of his home empire.
>
> A suspicious publican (I think it was a publican) takes one of the coin to a specialist and asks what its worth.
>
> The specialist says something to the effect of: "Our gold coins are technically brass (or copper), containing almost no gold at all. These foreign coins contain only enough copper that they are just hard to discourage people from skimming them and casting their own denatured counterfiets." Basically Ankh-Morgport's currency is junk and the foreigner's coins are the real deal. The next line of text is the publican back at his place of business greeting the tourist with a "How can I possibly make your stay any more pleasant (and much, much longer)?"
>
> I rather suspect that all real world currencies that claimed to be gold have operated on a very similar principle, probably since the time of Archimedes. Gold is just too valuable (and sometimes useful) to allowed to travel around in people's pockets.
>
> Rome was rather famous for debasing its gold and silver currency with lead and tin (I think). Most of Rome's wars and epic construction programs basically depended on the government being able to take in a whole lot of moderately valuable coins and turn them into a substantially larger bunch of coins that while having the same face value contained significantly less precious metal.

Many of their wars made a profit. Trajan invaded Dacia largely because the Dacians had accumulated a lot of gold.

>I don't know if the Roman citizens (or the neighboring nations/empires they traded with) ever quite grasped the scale of the fraud being perpertated by the Roman treasury.

Domitian did. While known as one of the "bad" emperors, he had the coinage re-established in his reign, with silver and gold amounts standardized. This had a good impact on the economy, and some have opined that Domitian's currency reform had a lot to do with the success of the "five good emperors" who followed him.

Many coins were not issued by the central authority, though. Whenever someone declared himself emperor, almost his first act was to issue coins declaring the same. What was in those coins was not very important to him. On his defeat, the coins could stay in circulation for many years, an early example of Gresham's law, before being recalled (if indeed they ever were).

>Might be why some nations, and some traders demanded to be paid in goods that were significantly more difficult to counterfeit, like ivory, and spices, and bullion style gold and silver the quality of which could be quickly and accurately accessed via measurements of mass and displacement.
>
> I'm sure the Ancient Romans weren't the only ones who practiced this kind of deception and fraud, and they probably weren't the first either.
>
> Which brings another thought to mind: Denmark and Sweden have curious laws about digging up Viking silver. There is so much around that they basically tax it discovery to make retrieving it and selling it uneconomical. Why? Because there is SO MUCH of the stuff buried in those two countries. If treasure hunters were allowed free reign they'd flood the international markets with so much silver as to cause serious economic woes.

Pity they didn't do it, then, when the Hunt Brothers were trying to corner the market in silver back in the
1980s.

William Hyde

On 11/7/21 16:43, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <e7af2ff9-d9cd-409c-babf-2e247ac46650n@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 2:40:04 PM UTC-7, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> In the US, paper currency bears the inscription "This note is good
>>> for all debts, public and private."
>>
>> And of course, the _primary_ intent of this was to prevent merchants
>>from insisting on gold coin as payment.
>
> Well, gold or silver, or maybe even copper, for small amounts.

I
> have vague recollections of trading ten pennies for a dime, or
> two dimes and a nickel for a quarter.
When I was in second and 3rd grade, we lived in San Gabriel, CA. Right
next to Temple City and (you may have heard of this one) Pasadena. I
believe the land had previously been an avocado orchard since there were
a bunch of huge avocado trees about half of which bore fruit, as well as
a lemon, a grapefruit, a pomegranate, a fig, an apple, an orange, a
plum, and probably some trees I can't remember. We used to sell fruit
door to door in our wagon to the local moms. Everything was a dime each
or two for a quarter. That way we didn't have to make change or at least
only rarely. Most people thought that was cute and didn't argue.

The first year we were in the house, 1962, my dad took two 55 gallon
drums of lemons off the lemon tree. We also had a lemonade stand.

We never got any gold coins, but did get silver I'm sure as well as a
couple of Mercury dimes and Buffalo nickles. I also seem to remember an
indian head penny too.

--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions (Definitely Retired)