On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 7:20:03 PM UTC, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <1f1dc987-6fd6-49fc...@googlegroups.com>,
> peterw...@hotmail.com <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 10:45:24 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Sun, 07 Nov 2021 03:38:35 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
> >> <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
> >> >news:jdcdog11149n7dknd...@4ax.com:
> >> >
> >> >> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 10:17:01 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
> >> >> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 7:07:14 AM UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> >>>> This post might be on-topic for anyone wanting to write a
> >> >>>> fantasy story set in the 19th century, or the part of the 20th
> >> >>>> century before the First World War. I had already posted about
> >> >>>> this to two other newsgroups where it was more on-topic, but
> >> >>>> without any germane replies.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> In 1912, in the city of Wroclaw, then called Breslau, and then
> >> >>>> in Germany, there was a chess game between one Levitsky and
> >> >>>> one Marshall which ended with a Queen sacrifice so impressive
> >> >>>> that, according to some accounts, many of the spectators
> >> >>>> tossed gold coins at the chessboard. Some writers have
> >> >>>> expressed doubt about whether that happened, but I tend to be
> >> >>>> willing to believe Frank Marshall's account. But there was one
> >> >>>> question in my mind: why would anyone, let alone many of the
> >> >>>> people in the audience, be carrying gold coins around in their
> >> >>>> pockets? I mean, this seems as though it's something basic
> >> >>>> that would have to be possible before we could believe that
> >> >>>> this happened.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Back in those days, nearly every country did mint gold coins.
> >> >>>> But it was still true that for denominations larger than those
> >> >>>> of silver coins, what was routinely used was paper money.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I did some thinking about this, and I came up with a possible
> >> >>>> explanation.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> At one time, U.S. paper money stated, in addition to it being
> >> >>>> "legal tender for all debts, public and private", that there
> >> >>>> was one exception to that: payment on import duties.
> >> >>>> The function of gold, even under the gold standard, was mainly
> >> >>>> for exchanges between the central banks of different countries
> >> >>>> to reconcile the case of a nonzero balance of payments.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> But combine that insight with this fact: back then, they
> >> >>>> didn't have credit cards or travellers' cheques.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> One could, even back then, I suppose, go to a bank and change
> >> >>>> one's money for that of another country. But it could be that
> >> >>>> the fees for that service were high back then.
> >> >>>> Obviously, just taking your own country's paper money to a
> >> >>>> foreign merchant wouldn't work well. Such a merchant would be
> >> >>>> ill-equipped to know if the money was genuine, and would not
> >> >>>> necessarily have an idea of its value.
> >> >>>> But gold coins... all you have to do is weigh them. (Yes,
> >> >>>> that's oversimplified; one country's gold coins might be 10%
> >> >>>> copper, and another country's gold coins might be 20% copper
> >> >>>> or something...)
> >> >>>> And back in those days, there were books published giving the
> >> >>>> weight, fineness, and value of gold coins from all the
> >> >>>> different countries around the world that issued them.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Such as this one:
> >> >>>> https://archive.org/details/petersonscomplet00tbpe
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> And the chess game, in a German city, was between a Russian
> >> >>>> player and an American one. So it's not unreasonable that many
> >> >>>> of the spectators were international tourists, some of them
> >> >>>> from Russia or the United States.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> So is this when someone, in 1910, or 1890, or thereabouts,
> >> >>>> would be carrying gold coins in his pocket instead of paper
> >> >>>> money, because that's how they handled transferring money
> >> >>>> between different countries for individuals, not just between
> >> >>>> banks, in those days?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> John Savard
> >> >>>According to many reports, the RAF issues gold sovereigns to
> >> >>>pilots who might be shot down behind enemy lines so they can buy
> >> >>>their way out of there (I did hear that there may be a change to
> >> >>>credit cards somewhere along the line). The following link not
> >> >>>only supports this, but points to a site that gives some insight
> >> >>>into the typical humour of the UK armed forces - generally a lot
> >> >>>more heavy-handed than in general society
> >> >>>https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/because-you-never-know-
> >> >>>when-20-gold-sovereigns-might.37670/ - come to think of it,
> >> >>>that's obvious just from the domain name.
> >> >>
> >> >> And, of course, there is always the survival kit detailed in
> >> >> /Dr. Stranglove/ (the movie): gold and nylons, whee!
> >> >
> >++In "From Russia With Love," Bond mentions that 20 gold sovereigns
> >++is part of the standard kit for agents (while producing one from
> >++his briefcase).
> >+And then forgets to mention how to safely open one.
> >
> >I don't think he exactly forgot...
> Yeah. You don't want to have every Tom, Dick, and Harry learning
> how to open containers designated for double-zero spybusters.
>
> --
> Dorothy J. Heydt
> Vallejo, California
> djheydt at gmail dot com
> Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Safely handling dangerous gadgets is not to be taken for granted. A web search will find various accounts of real life SOE Agent David Smiley being seriously injured when a briefcase containing thermite designed to incinerate sensitive documents went off while he was still inserting the documents to be incinerated.

On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 11:36:52 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 21:35:23 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt" .
> >>
> >> (Contrary to popular belief, it is not illegel to refuse cash under
> >> nearly all circumstances that ordinary people will ever
> >> experience.)
> >>>
> >>> And no, it's not legislated that /anybody/ has to accept cash,
> >>> and, if it was, the courts consider public health to be more
> >>> important, anyway.

In the US, paper currency bears the inscription "This note is good
for all debts, public and private." This means that in a transaction
where something of value is irrevocably supplied before payment
(eg, a meal in a restaurant) you can legally leave cash and walk out
regardless of the seller's preference. In other circumstances, the vendor
can refuse.

> >> We've all heard about how completely, utterly broken the minds of
> >> Ozzies are with fear and panic, yes.
> >>>
> >Important point - we are "Aussies". "Ozzy" means Austrian. (And,
> >sadly, both nations are becoming stupider as time passes. Sigh,
> >eventually we'll all be as stupid as the USA.)
> In Australia, no doubt.
>
> But here in the USA, I'm not sure the distinction is well-defined.

I've *never* heard 'Ozzy' used to refer to Austrians. The use of 'Oz'
to refer to Australia is well known though.

Pt

On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 2:40:04 PM UTC-7, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

> In the US, paper currency bears the inscription "This note is good
> for all debts, public and private."

And of course, the _primary_ intent of this was to prevent merchants
from insisting on gold coin as payment.

John Savard

On 11/7/2021 4:40 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

> In the US, paper currency bears the inscription "This note is good
> for all debts, public and private." This means that in a transaction
> where something of value is irrevocably supplied before payment
> (eg, a meal in a restaurant) you can legally leave cash and walk out
> regardless of the seller's preference. In other circumstances, the vendor
> can refuse.

The Treasury disagrees:
https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx

Quoting:
There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business,
a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment
for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their
own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State
law which says otherwise.

The last caveat is important. Massachusetts does have such a law.
https://malegislature.gov/laws/generallaws/partiii/titleiv/chapter255d/section10a

--
Mike Benveniste -- mhb@murkyether.com (Clarification Required)
You don't have to sort of enhance reality. There is nothing
stranger than truth. -- Annie Leibovitz

In article <e7af2ff9-d9cd-409c-babf-2e247ac46650n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 2:40:04 PM UTC-7, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> In the US, paper currency bears the inscription "This note is good
>> for all debts, public and private."
>
>And of course, the _primary_ intent of this was to prevent merchants
>from insisting on gold coin as payment.

Well, gold or silver, or maybe even copper, for small amounts. I
have vague recollections of trading ten pennies for a dime, or
two dimes and a nickel for a quarter. Took up less space in my
piggy bank,* and merchants are always happy to get change.
(Unless you wanted to pay for something that was a buck
ninety-eight plus tax with rather more than 200 pennies.*

_____
*Yes, I had a piggy bank, white with multicolored flowers all
over it, bought by my parents in Tijuana. I was five.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 7:56:47 PM UTC-5, Michael Benveniste wrote:
> On 11/7/2021 4:40 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > In the US, paper currency bears the inscription "This note is good
> > for all debts, public and private." This means that in a transaction
> > where something of value is irrevocably supplied before payment
> > (eg, a meal in a restaurant) you can legally leave cash and walk out
> > regardless of the seller's preference. In other circumstances, the vendor
> > can refuse.
> The Treasury disagrees:
> https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx
>
> Quoting:
> There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business,
> a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment
> for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their
> own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State
> law which says otherwise.

I sit corrected.

> The last caveat is important. Massachusetts does have such a law.
> https://malegislature.gov/laws/generallaws/partiii/titleiv/chapter255d/section10a

Where, as it happens, I live. But I was still incorrect.

Pt

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote in
news:9oleoglrr2g2r7flur7chanptpqjuuterc@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 07 Nov 2021 03:27:22 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Sounds like contractors, rather than retailers. Different
>>market, different pace of change. Taking credit cards involves
>>fees, which for most retailers are less than the cost of dealing
>>with bad checks and counterfeit bills. But contrators have
>>options to collect on bad checks, and can easily identify the
>>source of funny money to the authorities.
>
> I dunno - we've had ONE counterfeit bill in 25+ years in
> business.

We get them regularly. Most often during county fair season (when
the carnies are in town).

> (On another occasion in a stack of 25 bills we once
> had one half bill which the bad guy counted out with the half
> bill in the midst of the stack! We didn't notice till the end of
> day cash reconciliation....)

We actually got a counterfeit $20 from the bank once (that I know
about). Talk about an unhappy conversation.
>
> As for credit cards from highest to lowest the fees go Amex,
> M/C, Visa and debit - a typical Canadian VISA/MC charge is 2-4%
> of the charge (mostly higher for affinity and 'high spender'
> cards which have point programs paid for by higher fees to
> vendors) while Canadian debit transactions are typically 5-15
> cents per transaction based on volume and are by far the
> cheapest form of payment which is why I usually use debit
> particularly in small establishments as I can quickly calculate
> what my purchase is costing them in fees.
>
Amex has gone down, but is still higher. (I'm pretty sure the
increasing pressure on them to lower their fees is why they've
started offering, and pushing, actual credit cards - the
traditional Amex card isn't a credit card as such, because you have
to pay it off in full every month, so they get no interest on
outstanding balances.)

Fees for credit and debit are pretty much the same now, from what
I'm told, at least for a merchant the size we are. Hell, even Arco
(mostly) takes credit cards now.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 11:36:52 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 21:35:23 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt" .
>> >>>
>> >Important point - we are "Aussies". "Ozzy" means Austrian. (And,
>> >sadly, both nations are becoming stupider as time passes. Sigh,
>> >eventually we'll all be as stupid as the USA.)
>> In Australia, no doubt.
>>
>> But here in the USA, I'm not sure the distinction is well-defined.
>
> I've *never* heard 'Ozzy' used to refer to Austrians. The use of 'Oz'
> to refer to Australia is well known though.

While I've always seen Australians referred to as Aussies in print, when
spoken it's always been pronounced in a way I can't distinguish from
Ozzie. (I'm in the SW US).

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote in
news:k2meogd9hg6ibqf3v43gc69iotopbl42p1@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 07 Nov 2021 03:30:29 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> and vide the pandemic a lot of retailers no longer
>>> accept cash, anyway.
>>
>>Any store that does there here tends to get either protestors
>>outside their doors, or unwanted attention from activists (for
>>the unbanked) or politicians. Or both.
>
> In the early days of the pandemic many stores didn't like cash
> BUT when the schools re-opened the provincial health officer
> said that in situations where both parties were masked and basic
> hand-washing was taking place that there had been NO cases where
> Covid had been spread by handling paper alone.

There's little evidence of *any* disease being spread by paper
money.
>
> Now she was talking about school classroom situations but after
> that news release cash started making a strong comeback.
>
> At this time if a store rejected my cash I'd leave my purchase
> at the cashier and go elsewhere

I'd be inclined to do the same, if I ever carried cash. But I
don't. The *onlY* think I use cash for these days is a haircut, and
that's because the business model of a barber shop leads of many of
them not taking anything else.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:47386db0-ce17-47d2-b4c3-2b9e19e2c4a1n@googlegroups.com:

> On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 10:42:24 PM UTC-6, The Horny
> Goat wrote:
>
>> In the early days of the pandemic many stores didn't like cash
>
> Fortunately for me, because I'm a senior citizen, my bank
> doesn't charge any service fee for debit purchases. So with one
> or two unusual exceptions, I haven't used cash since the
> pandemic began.
>
Other than haircuts, I haven't used cash for at least 10 years. Maybe
15.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:fvvfogdoogn0tvgmud31satnrao6u49bm1@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 02:58:13 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, 7 November 2021 at 04:42:24 UTC, The Horny Goat
>>wrote:
>>> On Sun, 07 Nov 2021 03:30:29 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>>> <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> and vide the pandemic a lot of retailers no longer
>>> >> accept cash, anyway.
>>> >
>>> >Any store that does there here tends to get either protestors
>>> >outside their doors, or unwanted attention from activists
>>> >(for the unbanked) or politicians. Or both.
>>> In the early days of the pandemic many stores didn't like cash
>>> BUT when the schools re-opened the provincial health officer
>>> said that in situations where both parties were masked and
>>> basic hand-washing was taking place that there had been NO
>>> cases where Covid had been spread by handling paper alone.
>>>
>>> Now she was talking about school classroom situations but
>>> after that news release cash started making a strong comeback.
>>>
>>> At this time if a store rejected my cash I'd leave my purchase
>>> at the cashier and go elsewhere though for me at this time
>>> it's usually about 70% debit, 25% cash and only rarely Visa
>>> for in-person purchases.
>>
>>In Scotland, we're told that contactless card payments
>>are preferred, but I've had card payment refused by a
>>clerk for small purchases - that may or may not reflect
>>current fees - and at the moment, I offer cash for that.
>>I think the clerk takes money and makes change, then
>>washes or "sanitises" their hands immediately.
>>
>>And there's TV adverts for apparently a new system
>>allowing self-employed people to take card payment
>>by smart phone. The sole trader declares "I take card
>>now" and several people around them go "Ooh" at
>>high pitch and for an extremely long time. This is in
>>the advert; it's very annoying and it motivates me to
>>pay cash deliberately. I haven't seen it in real life;
>>I suppose it would be my role to go "Ooh". I intend
>>not to.
>
> I think that, like depositing checks, we've had that capability
> here for some time.
>
> Not me, of course; I don't do smartphones. But I think it has
> been available for businesspersons that are interested.

The ads never mention the fees.

There's a reason they don't.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

"Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote in
news:vnmk5i-q6a.ln1@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au:

> On 07/11/2021 14:30, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>> "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote in
>> news:nvjh5i-4qs.ln1@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au:
>>
>>> On 06/11/2021 07:17, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
>>>> news:JDdhJ.19091$6a3.7614@fx41.iad:
>>>>
>>>>> Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> Michael Benveniste <mhb@murkyether.com> wrote in
>>>>>> news:16b4a7dc13314a43$1$3170321$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.
>>>>>> co m:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In 1910, the average annual wage in Germany was about 1000
>>>>>>> marks. So each of those dime-sized coins equated to over
>>>>>>> 2 days of labor. Even for the idle rich, that's a lot of
>>>>>>> money to pay for what was effectively street
>>>>>>> entertainment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ridiculous. The average wage in the US last year was a bit
>>>>>> under $70,000. 2 days of their labor is under $300
>>>>>> (assuming a 40 hour week). A *lot* of people carry that
>>>>>> much in cash on a regular basis. Hell, some people (that
>>>>>> is, ordinarly middle class people) spend that much on
>>>>>> groceries every week.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, but then they mainly use plastic to pay for those
>>>>> groceries, and even if they carry cash, very few carry
>>>>> USD100 bills - the logical analog of the gold coin of the
>>>>> era.
>>>>>
>>>> Do you claim that is a universal truth? That *everybody* uses
>>>> plastic *all* *the* *time*?
>>>>
>>>> If so, you're as stupid as he is.
>>>>
>>>> Carrying a few hundred in cash is *common*.
>>>>
>>> Perhaps in the USA - here in Oz it's just easier to tap, or
>>> shove'n'pin,
>>
>> Well over half our retail business is plastic now.
>>
>> But there are still quite a lot of people who carry a few
>> hundred in cash on a regular basis (even ignoring the
>> "unbanked" who have little other choice).
>>
>>> and vide the pandemic a lot of retailers no longer
>>> accept cash, anyway.
>>
>> Any store that does there here tends to get either protestors
>> outside their doors, or unwanted attention from activists (for
>> the unbanked) or politicians. Or both.
>>
>> (Contrary to popular belief, it is not illegel to refuse cash
>> under nearly all circumstances that ordinary people will ever
>> experience.)
>>>
>>> And no, it's not legislated that /anybody/ has to accept cash,
>>> and, if it was, the courts consider public health to be more
>>> important, anyway.
>>
>> We've all heard about how completely, utterly broken the minds
>> of Ozzies are with fear and panic, yes.
>>>
> Important point - we are "Aussies". "Ozzy" means Austrian.
> (And, sadly, both nations are becoming stupider as time passes.
> Sigh, eventually we'll all be as stupid as the USA.)

Important only to you.
>
>>> I think the lonely pineapple (AUD50) in my wallet has been
>>> there for nigh on 18 months!
>>>
>> And yet, you still have it.
>>
> I'm hardly going to throw it away!!!
>
You could, perhaps, deposit it in the bank, or, you know, spend it.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:p30goghhitjh81d9sshcfb6mijfbcr3ipk@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 21:35:23 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt"
> <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:
>
>>On 07/11/2021 14:30, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>> "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote in
>>> news:nvjh5i-4qs.ln1@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au:
>>>
>>>> On 06/11/2021 07:17, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
>>>>> news:JDdhJ.19091$6a3.7614@fx41.iad:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>> Michael Benveniste <mhb@murkyether.com> wrote in
>>>>>>> news:16b4a7dc13314a43$1$3170321$802601b3@news.usenetexpress
>>>>>>> .co m:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In 1910, the average annual wage in Germany was about
>>>>>>>> 1000 marks. So each of those dime-sized coins equated to
>>>>>>>> over 2 days of labor. Even for the idle rich, that's a
>>>>>>>> lot of money to pay for what was effectively street
>>>>>>>> entertainment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ridiculous. The average wage in the US last year was a bit
>>>>>>> under $70,000. 2 days of their labor is under $300
>>>>>>> (assuming a 40 hour week). A *lot* of people carry that
>>>>>>> much in cash on a regular basis. Hell, some people (that
>>>>>>> is, ordinarly middle class people) spend that much on
>>>>>>> groceries every week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, but then they mainly use plastic to pay for those
>>>>>> groceries, and even if they carry cash, very few carry
>>>>>> USD100 bills - the logical analog of the gold coin of the
>>>>>> era.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Do you claim that is a universal truth? That *everybody*
>>>>> uses plastic *all* *the* *time*?
>>>>>
>>>>> If so, you're as stupid as he is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Carrying a few hundred in cash is *common*.
>>>>>
>>>> Perhaps in the USA - here in Oz it's just easier to tap, or
>>>> shove'n'pin,
>>>
>>> Well over half our retail business is plastic now.
>>>
>>> But there are still quite a lot of people who carry a few
>>> hundred in cash on a regular basis (even ignoring the
>>> "unbanked" who have little other choice).
>>>
>>>> and vide the pandemic a lot of retailers no longer
>>>> accept cash, anyway.
>>>
>>> Any store that does there here tends to get either protestors
>>> outside their doors, or unwanted attention from activists (for
>>> the unbanked) or politicians. Or both.
>>>
>>> (Contrary to popular belief, it is not illegel to refuse cash
>>> under nearly all circumstances that ordinary people will ever
>>> experience.)
>>>>
>>>> And no, it's not legislated that /anybody/ has to accept
>>>> cash, and, if it was, the courts consider public health to be
>>>> more important, anyway.
>>>
>>> We've all heard about how completely, utterly broken the minds
>>> of Ozzies are with fear and panic, yes.
>>>>
>>Important point - we are "Aussies". "Ozzy" means Austrian.
>>(And, sadly, both nations are becoming stupider as time passes.
>>Sigh, eventually we'll all be as stupid as the USA.)
>
> In Australia, no doubt.
>
> But here in the USA, I'm not sure the distinction is
> well-defined.

Or that anyone actually cares.

If he prfers, I guess I could refer to them as "kangaroo fuckers."

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

In article <XnsADDBBDFD7431Ftaustincagmailcom@85.12.62.232>,
Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote in
>news:9oleoglrr2g2r7flur7chanptpqjuuterc@4ax.com:
>
>> On Sun, 07 Nov 2021 03:27:22 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Sounds like contractors, rather than retailers. Different
>>>market, different pace of change. Taking credit cards involves
>>>fees, which for most retailers are less than the cost of dealing
>>>with bad checks and counterfeit bills. But contrators have
>>>options to collect on bad checks, and can easily identify the
>>>source of funny money to the authorities.
>>
>> I dunno - we've had ONE counterfeit bill in 25+ years in
>> business.
>
>We get them regularly. Most often during county fair season (when
>the carnies are in town).
>
>> (On another occasion in a stack of 25 bills we once
>> had one half bill which the bad guy counted out with the half
>> bill in the midst of the stack! We didn't notice till the end of
>> day cash reconciliation....)
>
>We actually got a counterfeit $20 from the bank once (that I know
>about). Talk about an unhappy conversation.
>>
>> As for credit cards from highest to lowest the fees go Amex,
>> M/C, Visa and debit - a typical Canadian VISA/MC charge is 2-4%
>> of the charge (mostly higher for affinity and 'high spender'
>> cards which have point programs paid for by higher fees to
>> vendors) while Canadian debit transactions are typically 5-15
>> cents per transaction based on volume and are by far the
>> cheapest form of payment which is why I usually use debit
>> particularly in small establishments as I can quickly calculate
>> what my purchase is costing them in fees.
>>
>Amex has gone down, but is still higher. (I'm pretty sure the
>increasing pressure on them to lower their fees is why they've
>started offering, and pushing, actual credit cards - the
>traditional Amex card isn't a credit card as such, because you have
>to pay it off in full every month, so they get no interest on
>outstanding balances.)
>
>Fees for credit and debit are pretty much the same now, from what
>I'm told, at least for a merchant the size we are. Hell, even Arco
>(mostly) takes credit cards now.
>

Had an interesting vacation trip to Martha's Vineyard in 2002 and found
that for some reason very few businesses there would take a credit card.
They also have some sort of rule that keeps out most chains.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

In article <XnsADDBBE826D109taustincagmailcom@85.12.62.232>,
Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>news:47386db0-ce17-47d2-b4c3-2b9e19e2c4a1n@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 10:42:24 PM UTC-6, The Horny
>> Goat wrote:
>>
>>> In the early days of the pandemic many stores didn't like cash
>>
>> Fortunately for me, because I'm a senior citizen, my bank
>> doesn't charge any service fee for debit purchases. So with one
>> or two unusual exceptions, I haven't used cash since the
>> pandemic began.
>>
>Other than haircuts, I haven't used cash for at least 10 years. Maybe
>15.
>

I try to use cash almost exclusively. And I pay my bills by check.

Yes, I know, 1950 called and said come back all is forgiven.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
news:3f182276-f5d9-45df-879e-97d97c7dac51n@googlegroups.com:

> On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 11:36:52 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person
> wrote:
>> On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 21:35:23 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt" .
>> >>
>> >> (Contrary to popular belief, it is not illegel to refuse
>> >> cash under nearly all circumstances that ordinary people
>> >> will ever experience.)
>> >>>
>> >>> And no, it's not legislated that /anybody/ has to accept
>> >>> cash, and, if it was, the courts consider public health to
>> >>> be more important, anyway.
>
> In the US, paper currency bears the inscription "This note is
> good for all debts, public and private." This means that in a
> transaction where something of value is irrevocably supplied
> before payment (eg, a meal in a restaurant) you can legally
> leave cash and walk out regardless of the seller's preference.
> In other circumstances, the vendor can refuse.

No, that isn't what it means. As is so often the case, you are
clueless. There is no federal law or regulation saying that
merchants must accept cash.

What the sentence means is that a *creditor* must accept cash for
repayment of a debt. A merchant is not a creditor, not even a
restaurant that serves you food before you pay. That kind of
transacion is covered by different bodies of law.

Some states and cities have laws requiring accepting cash, but
that's not what *you* were talking about.
>
>> >> We've all heard about how completely, utterly broken the
>> >> minds of Ozzies are with fear and panic, yes.
>> >>>
>> >Important point - we are "Aussies". "Ozzy" means Austrian.
>> >(And, sadly, both nations are becoming stupider as time
>> >passes. Sigh, eventually we'll all be as stupid as the USA.)
>> In Australia, no doubt.
>>
>> But here in the USA, I'm not sure the distinction is
>> well-defined.
>
> I've *never* heard 'Ozzy' used to refer to Austrians. The use of
> 'Oz' to refer to Australia is well known though.
>
Indeed.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:e7af2ff9-d9cd-409c-babf-2e247ac46650n@googlegroups.com:

> On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 2:40:04 PM UTC-7,
> pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> In the US, paper currency bears the inscription "This note is
>> good for all debts, public and private."
>
> And of course, the _primary_ intent of this was to prevent
> merchants from insisting on gold coin as payment.
>
Never, at any point. As usual, you're even more full of shit than
Petey.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:vh0gogdkemhun3pck5rb8gs4r35o11cjij@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 07 Nov 2021 03:38:35 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>news:jdcdog11149n7dknd85r4rrslkclq645rm@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 10:17:01 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>>> <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 7:07:14 AM UTC, Quadibloc
>>>>wrote:
>>>>> This post might be on-topic for anyone wanting to write a
>>>>> fantasy story set in the 19th century, or the part of the
>>>>> 20th century before the First World War. I had already
>>>>> posted about this to two other newsgroups where it was more
>>>>> on-topic, but without any germane replies.
>>>>>
>>>>> In 1912, in the city of Wroclaw, then called Breslau, and
>>>>> then in Germany, there was a chess game between one Levitsky
>>>>> and one Marshall which ended with a Queen sacrifice so
>>>>> impressive that, according to some accounts, many of the
>>>>> spectators tossed gold coins at the chessboard. Some writers
>>>>> have expressed doubt about whether that happened, but I tend
>>>>> to be willing to believe Frank Marshall's account. But there
>>>>> was one question in my mind: why would anyone, let alone
>>>>> many of the people in the audience, be carrying gold coins
>>>>> around in their pockets? I mean, this seems as though it's
>>>>> something basic that would have to be possible before we
>>>>> could believe that this happened.
>>>>>
>>>>> Back in those days, nearly every country did mint gold
>>>>> coins. But it was still true that for denominations larger
>>>>> than those of silver coins, what was routinely used was
>>>>> paper money.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did some thinking about this, and I came up with a
>>>>> possible explanation.
>>>>>
>>>>> At one time, U.S. paper money stated, in addition to it
>>>>> being "legal tender for all debts, public and private", that
>>>>> there was one exception to that: payment on import duties.
>>>>> The function of gold, even under the gold standard, was
>>>>> mainly for exchanges between the central banks of different
>>>>> countries to reconcile the case of a nonzero balance of
>>>>> payments.
>>>>>
>>>>> But combine that insight with this fact: back then, they
>>>>> didn't have credit cards or travellers' cheques.
>>>>>
>>>>> One could, even back then, I suppose, go to a bank and
>>>>> change one's money for that of another country. But it could
>>>>> be that the fees for that service were high back then.
>>>>> Obviously, just taking your own country's paper money to a
>>>>> foreign merchant wouldn't work well. Such a merchant would
>>>>> be ill-equipped to know if the money was genuine, and would
>>>>> not necessarily have an idea of its value.
>>>>> But gold coins... all you have to do is weigh them. (Yes,
>>>>> that's oversimplified; one country's gold coins might be 10%
>>>>> copper, and another country's gold coins might be 20% copper
>>>>> or something...)
>>>>> And back in those days, there were books published giving
>>>>> the weight, fineness, and value of gold coins from all the
>>>>> different countries around the world that issued them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Such as this one:
>>>>> https://archive.org/details/petersonscomplet00tbpe
>>>>>
>>>>> And the chess game, in a German city, was between a Russian
>>>>> player and an American one. So it's not unreasonable that
>>>>> many of the spectators were international tourists, some of
>>>>> them from Russia or the United States.
>>>>>
>>>>> So is this when someone, in 1910, or 1890, or thereabouts,
>>>>> would be carrying gold coins in his pocket instead of paper
>>>>> money, because that's how they handled transferring money
>>>>> between different countries for individuals, not just
>>>>> between banks, in those days?
>>>>>
>>>>> John Savard
>>>>According to many reports, the RAF issues gold sovereigns to
>>>>pilots who might be shot down behind enemy lines so they can
>>>>buy their way out of there (I did hear that there may be a
>>>>change to credit cards somewhere along the line). The
>>>>following link not only supports this, but points to a site
>>>>that gives some insight into the typical humour of the UK
>>>>armed forces - generally a lot more heavy-handed than in
>>>>general society
>>>>https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/because-you-never-kno
>>>>w- when-20-gold-sovereigns-might.37670/ - come to think of it,
>>>>that's obvious just from the domain name.
>>>
>>> And, of course, there is always the survival kit detailed in
>>> /Dr. Stranglove/ (the movie): gold and nylons, whee!
>>
>>In "From Russia With Love," Bond mentions that 20 gold
>>sovereigns is part of the standard kit for agents (while
>>producing one from his briefcase).
>
> And then forgets to mention how to safely open one.

I wouldn't call "luring Agent Grant into opening the case with the
bas bomb set to go off if you open it wrong because he's holding a
gun on you" "forgetting." In fact, he clearly didn't *forget*
anything at all.

(Just saw that movie the other night on some movie channel.)

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote in
news:iurhpiFov6iU1@mid.individual.net:

> In article <XnsADDBBDFD7431Ftaustincagmailcom@85.12.62.232>,
> Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote in
>>news:9oleoglrr2g2r7flur7chanptpqjuuterc@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Sun, 07 Nov 2021 03:27:22 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Sounds like contractors, rather than retailers. Different
>>>>market, different pace of change. Taking credit cards involves
>>>>fees, which for most retailers are less than the cost of
>>>>dealing with bad checks and counterfeit bills. But contrators
>>>>have options to collect on bad checks, and can easily identify
>>>>the source of funny money to the authorities.
>>>
>>> I dunno - we've had ONE counterfeit bill in 25+ years in
>>> business.
>>
>>We get them regularly. Most often during county fair season
>>(when the carnies are in town).
>>
>>> (On another occasion in a stack of 25 bills we once
>>> had one half bill which the bad guy counted out with the half
>>> bill in the midst of the stack! We didn't notice till the end
>>> of day cash reconciliation....)
>>
>>We actually got a counterfeit $20 from the bank once (that I
>>know about). Talk about an unhappy conversation.
>>>
>>> As for credit cards from highest to lowest the fees go Amex,
>>> M/C, Visa and debit - a typical Canadian VISA/MC charge is
>>> 2-4% of the charge (mostly higher for affinity and 'high
>>> spender' cards which have point programs paid for by higher
>>> fees to vendors) while Canadian debit transactions are
>>> typically 5-15 cents per transaction based on volume and are
>>> by far the cheapest form of payment which is why I usually use
>>> debit particularly in small establishments as I can quickly
>>> calculate what my purchase is costing them in fees.
>>>
>>Amex has gone down, but is still higher. (I'm pretty sure the
>>increasing pressure on them to lower their fees is why they've
>>started offering, and pushing, actual credit cards - the
>>traditional Amex card isn't a credit card as such, because you
>>have to pay it off in full every month, so they get no interest
>>on outstanding balances.)
>>
>>Fees for credit and debit are pretty much the same now, from
>>what I'm told, at least for a merchant the size we are. Hell,
>>even Arco (mostly) takes credit cards now.
>>
>
> Had an interesting vacation trip to Martha's Vineyard in 2002
> and found that for some reason very few businesses there would
> take a credit card.

Be interesting to hear the story behind that. Unless it's something
as mundane as "they charge fees." That wouldn't be interesting at
all.

> They also have some sort of rule that keeps
> out most chains.

Many communities at least try to do so (until the graft and
corruption start to flow like water).

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote in
news:iurhu3Fov6iU2@mid.individual.net:

> In article <XnsADDBBE826D109taustincagmailcom@85.12.62.232>,
> Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>>news:47386db0-ce17-47d2-b4c3-2b9e19e2c4a1n@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 10:42:24 PM UTC-6, The Horny
>>> Goat wrote:
>>>
>>>> In the early days of the pandemic many stores didn't like
>>>> cash
>>>
>>> Fortunately for me, because I'm a senior citizen, my bank
>>> doesn't charge any service fee for debit purchases. So with
>>> one or two unusual exceptions, I haven't used cash since the
>>> pandemic began.
>>>
>>Other than haircuts, I haven't used cash for at least 10 years.
>>Maybe 15.
>>
>
> I try to use cash almost exclusively.

The wonderful thing is, we're both allowed to do what we do.

> And I pay my bills by
> check.

I pay a couple by check. Which is to say, I pay through exactly the
same part of my online banking account, only instead of an
electronic transfer, the bank writes a check and mails it for me
(without even charging me for the postage).
>
> Yes, I know, 1950 called and said come back all is forgiven.

It's hard to imagine that cash will go entirely away in our
lifetimes, at least in the US. Some parts of Europe are heading
that way as fast as they can, though. When I was in Iceland, I
didn't see a single business that didn't accept credit cards (even
American credit cards with no PIN). The street vendors wit ha hot
dog cart take plastic. And Sweden apparently has *banks* that won't
accept cash now.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 02:40:36 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
<taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote in
>news:9oleoglrr2g2r7flur7chanptpqjuuterc@4ax.com:
>
>> On Sun, 07 Nov 2021 03:27:22 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>We actually got a counterfeit $20 from the bank once (that I know
>about). Talk about an unhappy conversation.

Never had that BUT have taken out $200 and got 9 $20 bills and 1 $1
bill. Fortunately the branch was open at the time and I was able to
immediately storm in and demand of the head teller that she
immediately fix it - and having been a customer at that branch for 10+
years (30 now) they did.

Had I gone after hours I probably would have had to eat the loss.
>Amex has gone down, but is still higher. (I'm pretty sure the
>increasing pressure on them to lower their fees is why they've
>started offering, and pushing, actual credit cards - the
>traditional Amex card isn't a credit card as such, because you have
>to pay it off in full every month, so they get no interest on
>outstanding balances.)

Understood and yes I've heard they've dropped their fees - not
surprising since their already low share of the market was under
attack from the debit cards.

>Fees for credit and debit are pretty much the same now, from what
>I'm told, at least for a merchant the size we are. Hell, even Arco
>(mostly) takes credit cards now.

So what is your typical merchant fee in the US currently for debit
cards? (I've heard Visa/MC rates are about .5 - .75% lower in the US
than Canada but it's very hard to tell given the vast number of
'affinity' and 'points' cards meaning that there are umpteen different
rates based on card class which under the standard merchant agreement
a merchant MUST honor with no additional fees)

On Sun, 07 Nov 2021 19:41:55 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
<pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:

>>> >Important point - we are "Aussies". "Ozzy" means Austrian. (And,
>>> >sadly, both nations are becoming stupider as time passes. Sigh,
>>> >eventually we'll all be as stupid as the USA.)
>>> In Australia, no doubt.
>>>
>>> But here in the USA, I'm not sure the distinction is well-defined.
>>
>> I've *never* heard 'Ozzy' used to refer to Austrians. The use of 'Oz'
>> to refer to Australia is well known though.
>
>While I've always seen Australians referred to as Aussies in print, when
>spoken it's always been pronounced in a way I can't distinguish from
>Ozzie. (I'm in the SW US).

That is my experience in Western Canada as well. (And was in Ontario
when I lived there 30 years ago)

On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 9:42:00 PM UTC-5, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 11:36:52 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 21:35:23 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt" .
> >> >>>
> >> >Important point - we are "Aussies". "Ozzy" means Austrian. (And,
> >> >sadly, both nations are becoming stupider as time passes. Sigh,
> >> >eventually we'll all be as stupid as the USA.)
> >> In Australia, no doubt.
> >>
> >> But here in the USA, I'm not sure the distinction is well-defined.
> >
> > I've *never* heard 'Ozzy' used to refer to Austrians. The use of 'Oz'
> > to refer to Australia is well known though.
> While I've always seen Australians referred to as Aussies in print, when
> spoken it's always been pronounced in a way I can't distinguish from
> Ozzie. (I'm in the SW US).

Whereas I, in the NE, can't imagine the 'ss' and 'zz' being
confused.

Pt

Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
> ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote in
> news:iurhu3Fov6iU2@mid.individual.net:
>
>> In article <XnsADDBBE826D109taustincagmailcom@85.12.62.232>,
>> Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>>>news:47386db0-ce17-47d2-b4c3-2b9e19e2c4a1n@googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 10:42:24 PM UTC-6, The Horny
>>>> Goat wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In the early days of the pandemic many stores didn't like
>>>>> cash
>>>>
>>>> Fortunately for me, because I'm a senior citizen, my bank
>>>> doesn't charge any service fee for debit purchases. So with
>>>> one or two unusual exceptions, I haven't used cash since the
>>>> pandemic began.
>>>>
>>>Other than haircuts, I haven't used cash for at least 10 years.
>>>Maybe 15.
>>>
>>
>> I try to use cash almost exclusively.
>
> The wonderful thing is, we're both allowed to do what we do.
>
>> And I pay my bills by
>> check.
>
> I pay a couple by check. Which is to say, I pay through exactly the
> same part of my online banking account, only instead of an
> electronic transfer, the bank writes a check and mails it for me
> (without even charging me for the postage).
>>
>> Yes, I know, 1950 called and said come back all is forgiven.
>
> It's hard to imagine that cash will go entirely away in our
> lifetimes, at least in the US. Some parts of Europe are heading
> that way as fast as they can, though. When I was in Iceland, I
> didn't see a single business that didn't accept credit cards (even
> American credit cards with no PIN). The street vendors wit ha hot
> dog cart take plastic. And Sweden apparently has *banks* that won't
> accept cash now.
>

On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 7:57:41 PM UTC-7, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
> news:e7af2ff9-d9cd-409c...@googlegroups.com:
> > On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 2:40:04 PM UTC-7,
> > pete...@gmail.com wrote:

> >> In the US, paper currency bears the inscription "This note is
> >> good for all debts, public and private."

> > And of course, the _primary_ intent of this was to prevent
> > merchants from insisting on gold coin as payment.

> Never, at any point. As usual, you're even more full of shit than
> Petey.

I'm quite serious. After all, the whole _point_ of printing paper money
is to spare the government the need of minting as much gold coin;
and that's not going to work if nobody will accept it, because they can't
use it anywhere.

And gold and silver coin is safe - it doesn't become worthless if the
government fails, it's percieved as being harder to counterfeit.

John Savard