On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 16:18:04 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>>>> airline tells
>>>>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines
>>>>>>>>> reject it as
>>>>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>>>> arrival.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>>>
>>>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>>>> entry into the US.
>>>> >>>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.

>>>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>>>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>>>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>>>
>>> No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
>>> never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
>>> the US.
>>
>> Pre-screening is standard IMX, although I haven’t been across to the US
>> since 2016. I was going there about three times a year at one stage.
>>
>
>Roland is talking about American security staff pre-screening people before
>they can check in to US-bound flights. I've never seen or experienced that,
>but it may be because it apparently only happens with US carriers, which I
>always avoid.

I have been subject to this on many occasions, at about the time that
Roland was a frequent flyer. I was sometimes subject to particular
scrutiny as I often turned up late (due to delayed incoming flights)
and had odd routings, such as STN - CDG - PHL - FRA - STN.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 19:59:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>>
>> I've experienced pre-screening on a BA flight to Atlanta from Terminal Five.
>>
>> The clue that you are chosen as "random" is that you cannot check in
>> online or on the self help machines at the airport.
>>
>> The operative conducting my "screening" was between the gate and
>> boarding the plane. He was American and well trained in that he was
>> only just within a tadge of being rude and any closer I would have
>> complained.
>>
>> All of the contents of my rucksack were carefully examined and several
>> swabs taken and tested. I was also thoroughly body searched.
>>
>> All of this was done in full view of other passengers so I did have
>> cause for complaint.
>>
>> I was being called even before the gate was due to close but was last to
>> board the plane. We departed late because some baggage had to be removed.
>>
>
>That's not pre-screening. It's a supposedly random (but probably not)
>security check, which is something completely different.

Yes. I may have posytd before about my horrible experience at SFO when
the ESTA system went down and those of us unlucky enough to present at
the gates at that time were taken off to the suspected-illegals room
and held for over four hours in a very unpleasant environment, with
the BCP people treating us like scum.
When my attempt to check in for the return flight (AUK - LAX) was
rejected and I was informed I was subject to additional screening my
heart sank. I need not have worried; the NZ security people managed to
do it all in a pleasant manner, totally unlike their US counterparts.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:48:44 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:07:22 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> My supposition is that Apple are better at designing fingerprint readers
>>> than government contractors.
>>
>> Or, specifically, it spends more on them (both the sensor and the
>> computer power to do the processing).
>>
>> Of course, Apple uses facial recognition rather than fingerprint scans in
>> the more professional devices (modern iPad
>> Pros). Perhaps that's more secure or more reliable?
>>
>
>I think the reason for the change was that the button/fingerprint reader
>was taking up too much space on the front of the device, which is now
>occupied by larger screen.
>
>
I don't understand the desire for a fingerprint reader on the front of
the phone. Mine's on the back, and it's a very natural action to pick
it up with my finger on the reader when needed.

>Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 19/04/2022 09:35, Ken wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:48:44 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:07:22 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> My supposition is that Apple are better at designing fingerprint readers
>>>> than government contractors.
>>>
>>> Or, specifically, it spends more on them (both the sensor and the
>>> computer power to do the processing).
>>>
>>> Of course, Apple uses facial recognition rather than fingerprint scans in
>>> the more professional devices (modern iPad
>>> Pros). Perhaps that's more secure or more reliable?
>>>
>>
>> I think the reason for the change was that the button/fingerprint reader
>> was taking up too much space on the front of the device, which is now
>> occupied by larger screen.
>>
>>
> I don't understand the desire for a fingerprint reader on the front of
> the phone. Mine's on the back, and it's a very natural action to pick
> it up with my finger on the reader when needed.
>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver

Nor do I.

Mince is on the side (power button) and it's programmed for both thumbs.
Right for normal use and left when it's sitting in the cradle in the car.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:00:54 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>>> Is it different in other countries? Do normal, law-abiding citizens
>>>>>> routinely get their fingerprints scanned? It's not
>>>>>> something I've come across.
>>>>>
>>>>> In North America if you have a Global Entry or NEXUS card which lets
>>>>> you use e-gates at US and (for NEXUS) Canadian airport immigration,
>>>>> they now use fingerprints. NEXUS used to use iris scans but for some
>>>>> reason they switched. The iris scans worked reasonably well unlike the
>>>>> UK ones a decade ago.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I should have made clearer that I was thinking of routine regular finger
>>>> printing of normal, law abusing citizens, other than at borders. I've been
>>>> finger printed at several countries' borders, but nowhere else. Roland
>>>> seemed to be suggesting that the UK was unusual in not requiring finger
>>>> print scans in other circumstances, and I was asking where/when/which other
>>>> countries required them.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, millions of us happily give our fingerprints every day to access
>>>> our own devices. And, I assume, some workplaces require fingerprint scans
>>>> for access.
>>>
>>> As some security people point out, the trouble with using a fingerprint for
>>> access to resources is that, unlike a password, you can’t change or revoke
>>> it if it’s compromised. The same is true for all biometrics. You really
>>> need the “something you have and something you know” pairing, where your
>>> biometric is the something you have.
>>>
>> Fingerprints can make things less secure as often proven by holding an
>> unconscious person's finger to their phone in the process of
>> identifying them.
>>
>
> But somewhat obvious at a passport gate.

In fiction, of course, the unconscious person (or possibly the conscious
person) and their finger may become separated, which would make the
passport gate scenario a bit easier to, erm, handle. I don’t know whether
that’s ever happened in real life.

ISTR seeing a video about making silicone fingerprint casts and unlocking
phones with them. I thought it might have been Tom Scott, but I can’t find
it.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:00:54 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>>>> Is it different in other countries? Do normal, law-abiding citizens
>>>>>>> routinely get their fingerprints scanned? It's not
>>>>>>> something I've come across.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In North America if you have a Global Entry or NEXUS card which lets
>>>>>> you use e-gates at US and (for NEXUS) Canadian airport immigration,
>>>>>> they now use fingerprints. NEXUS used to use iris scans but for some
>>>>>> reason they switched. The iris scans worked reasonably well unlike the
>>>>>> UK ones a decade ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I should have made clearer that I was thinking of routine regular finger
>>>>> printing of normal, law abusing citizens, other than at borders. I've been
>>>>> finger printed at several countries' borders, but nowhere else. Roland
>>>>> seemed to be suggesting that the UK was unusual in not requiring finger
>>>>> print scans in other circumstances, and I was asking where/when/which other
>>>>> countries required them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, millions of us happily give our fingerprints every day to access
>>>>> our own devices. And, I assume, some workplaces require fingerprint scans
>>>>> for access.
>>>>
>>>> As some security people point out, the trouble with using a fingerprint for
>>>> access to resources is that, unlike a password, you can’t change or revoke
>>>> it if it’s compromised. The same is true for all biometrics. You really
>>>> need the “something you have and something you know” pairing, where your
>>>> biometric is the something you have.
>>>>
>>> Fingerprints can make things less secure as often proven by holding an
>>> unconscious person's finger to their phone in the process of
>>> identifying them.
>>>
>>
>> But somewhat obvious at a passport gate.
>
> In fiction, of course, the unconscious person (or possibly the conscious
> person) and their finger may become separated, which would make the
> passport gate scenario a bit easier to, erm, handle. I don’t know whether
> that’s ever happened in real life.
>
> ISTR seeing a video about making silicone fingerprint casts and unlocking
> phones with them. I thought it might have been Tom Scott, but I can’t find
> it.
>
> Sam
>

I believe the better sensors can detect if the fingerprint belongs to a
live body. Other than temperature, which could be spoofed, I’m not sure how
you determine liveness.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:00:54 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>> Is it different in other countries? Do normal, law-abiding citizens
>>>>>>>> routinely get their fingerprints scanned? It's not
>>>>>>>> something I've come across.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In North America if you have a Global Entry or NEXUS card which lets
>>>>>>> you use e-gates at US and (for NEXUS) Canadian airport immigration,
>>>>>>> they now use fingerprints. NEXUS used to use iris scans but for some
>>>>>>> reason they switched. The iris scans worked reasonably well unlike the
>>>>>>> UK ones a decade ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I should have made clearer that I was thinking of routine regular finger
>>>>>> printing of normal, law abusing citizens, other than at borders. I've been
>>>>>> finger printed at several countries' borders, but nowhere else. Roland
>>>>>> seemed to be suggesting that the UK was unusual in not requiring finger
>>>>>> print scans in other circumstances, and I was asking where/when/which other
>>>>>> countries required them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, millions of us happily give our fingerprints every day to access
>>>>>> our own devices. And, I assume, some workplaces require fingerprint scans
>>>>>> for access.
>>>>>
>>>>> As some security people point out, the trouble with using a fingerprint for
>>>>> access to resources is that, unlike a password, you can’t change or revoke
>>>>> it if it’s compromised. The same is true for all biometrics. You really
>>>>> need the “something you have and something you know” pairing, where your
>>>>> biometric is the something you have.
>>>>>
>>>> Fingerprints can make things less secure as often proven by holding an
>>>> unconscious person's finger to their phone in the process of
>>>> identifying them.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But somewhat obvious at a passport gate.
>>
>> In fiction, of course, the unconscious person (or possibly the conscious
>> person) and their finger may become separated, which would make the
>> passport gate scenario a bit easier to, erm, handle. I don’t know whether
>> that’s ever happened in real life.
>>
>> ISTR seeing a video about making silicone fingerprint casts and unlocking
>> phones with them. I thought it might have been Tom Scott, but I can’t find
>> it.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
> I believe the better sensors can detect if the fingerprint belongs to a
> live body. Other than temperature, which could be spoofed, I’m not sure how
> you determine liveness.
>
>

I wonder if it's how the print moves on the sensor? That might correlate
with the elasticity of the skin, which might be different in a live body vs
a dead one or a silicone copy.

On 19/04/2022 11:31, Tweed wrote:
> I believe the better sensors can detect if the fingerprint belongs to a
> live body. Other than temperature, which could be spoofed, I’m not sure how
> you determine liveness.

Pulse?

I would have thought it essential for anything important or otherwise
the bad guys will use an axe. Easy to carry a finger around than a
body, live or dead.

Am 19.04.2022 um 12:25 schrieb Sam Wilson:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:00:54 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>>>> Is it different in other countries? Do normal, law-abiding citizens
>>>>>>> routinely get their fingerprints scanned? It's not
>>>>>>> something I've come across.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In North America if you have a Global Entry or NEXUS card which lets
>>>>>> you use e-gates at US and (for NEXUS) Canadian airport immigration,
>>>>>> they now use fingerprints. NEXUS used to use iris scans but for some
>>>>>> reason they switched. The iris scans worked reasonably well unlike the
>>>>>> UK ones a decade ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I should have made clearer that I was thinking of routine regular finger
>>>>> printing of normal, law abusing citizens, other than at borders. I've been
>>>>> finger printed at several countries' borders, but nowhere else. Roland
>>>>> seemed to be suggesting that the UK was unusual in not requiring finger
>>>>> print scans in other circumstances, and I was asking where/when/which other
>>>>> countries required them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, millions of us happily give our fingerprints every day to access
>>>>> our own devices. And, I assume, some workplaces require fingerprint scans
>>>>> for access.
>>>>
>>>> As some security people point out, the trouble with using a fingerprint for
>>>> access to resources is that, unlike a password, you can’t change or revoke
>>>> it if it’s compromised. The same is true for all biometrics. You really
>>>> need the “something you have and something you know” pairing, where your
>>>> biometric is the something you have.
>>>>
>>> Fingerprints can make things less secure as often proven by holding an
>>> unconscious person's finger to their phone in the process of
>>> identifying them.
>>>
>>
>> But somewhat obvious at a passport gate.
>
> In fiction, of course, the unconscious person (or possibly the conscious
> person) and their finger may become separated, which would make the
> passport gate scenario a bit easier to, erm, handle. I don’t know whether
> that’s ever happened in real life.

ISTR that there was a story 10 years ago about steling a luxury car
secured by fingerrpint somewhere in India.

But even if that made the newspapers it might not be more then an urban
legend.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>>>> airline tells
>>>>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines
>>>>>>>>> reject it as
>>>>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>>>> arrival.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>>>
>>>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>>>> entry into the US.
>>>>
>>>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>>>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>>>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>>>
>>> No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
>>> never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
>>> the US.
>>
>> Pre-screening is standard IMX, although I haven’t been across to the US
>> since 2016. I was going there about three times a year at one stage.
>>
>
> Roland is talking about American security staff pre-screening people before
> they can check in to US-bound flights. I've never seen or experienced that,
> but it may be because it apparently only happens with US carriers, which I
> always avoid.

I know exactly what Roland is talking about, and I have experienced it
myself on quite a number of occasions.

--
Jeremy Double

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 17:18, Recliner wrote:
>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>>>>> airline tells
>>>>>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines
>>>>>>>>>> reject it as
>>>>>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>>>>> arrival.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>>>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>>>>> entry into the US.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>>>>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>>>>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>>>>
>>>> No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
>>>> never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
>>>> the US.
>>>
>>> Pre-screening is standard IMX, although I haven’t been across to the US
>>> since 2016. I was going there about three times a year at one stage.
>>>
>>
>> Roland is talking about American security staff pre-screening people before
>> they can check in to US-bound flights. I've never seen or experienced that,
>> but it may be because it apparently only happens with US carriers, which I
>> always avoid.
>>
>
> I've experienced pre-screening on a BA flight to Atlanta from Terminal Five.
>
> The clue that you are chosen as "random" is that you cannot check in
> online or on the self help machines at the airport.
>
> The operative conducting my "screening" was between the gate and
> boarding the plane. He was American and well trained in that he was
> only just within a tadge of being rude and any closer I would have
> complained.

That’s a different layer of screening, not just providing details to allow
you to check in, but a secondary security search (IMX after main
security). IIRC, the only time I experienced it was when I was travelling
with a colleague of Indian ethnicity.
--
Jeremy Double

On 19 Apr 2022 13:08:32 GMT, Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:

><martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 18/04/2022 17:18, Recliner wrote:
>>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>>>>>> airline tells
>>>>>>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines
>>>>>>>>>>> reject it as
>>>>>>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>>>>>> arrival.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>>>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>>>>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>>>>>> entry into the US.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>>>>>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>>>>>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>>>>>
>>>>> No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
>>>>> never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
>>>>> the US.
>>>>
>>>> Pre-screening is standard IMX, although I haven’t been across to the US
>>>> since 2016. I was going there about three times a year at one stage.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Roland is talking about American security staff pre-screening people before
>>> they can check in to US-bound flights. I've never seen or experienced that,
>>> but it may be because it apparently only happens with US carriers, which I
>>> always avoid.
>>>
>>
>> I've experienced pre-screening on a BA flight to Atlanta from Terminal Five.
>>
>> The clue that you are chosen as "random" is that you cannot check in
>> online or on the self help machines at the airport.
>>
>> The operative conducting my "screening" was between the gate and
>> boarding the plane. He was American and well trained in that he was
>> only just within a tadge of being rude and any closer I would have
>> complained.
>
>That’s a different layer of screening, not just providing details to allow
>you to check in, but a secondary security search (IMX after main
>security). IIRC, the only time I experienced it was when I was travelling
>with a colleague of Indian ethnicity.

Yes, it's done at the gate, sometimes actually on the jetway.

On 19 Apr 2022 13:08:32 GMT, Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>>>>> airline tells
>>>>>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines
>>>>>>>>>> reject it as
>>>>>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>>>>> arrival.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>>>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>>>>> entry into the US.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>>>>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>>>>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>>>>
>>>> No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
>>>> never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
>>>> the US.
>>>
>>> Pre-screening is standard IMX, although I haven’t been across to the US
>>> since 2016. I was going there about three times a year at one stage.
>>>
>>
>> Roland is talking about American security staff pre-screening people before
>> they can check in to US-bound flights. I've never seen or experienced that,
>> but it may be because it apparently only happens with US carriers, which I
>> always avoid.
>
>I know exactly what Roland is talking about, and I have experienced it
>myself on quite a number of occasions.

Do you remember if you were travelling on US carriers? Roland usually did, while I never did if there was a choice,
which might explain the difference in our experiences.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 19 Apr 2022 13:08:32 GMT, Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>>>>>> airline tells
>>>>>>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines
>>>>>>>>>>> reject it as
>>>>>>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>>>>>> arrival.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>>>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>>>>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>>>>>> entry into the US.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>>>>>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>>>>>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>>>>>
>>>>> No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
>>>>> never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
>>>>> the US.
>>>>
>>>> Pre-screening is standard IMX, although I haven’t been across to the US
>>>> since 2016. I was going there about three times a year at one stage.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Roland is talking about American security staff pre-screening people before
>>> they can check in to US-bound flights. I've never seen or experienced that,
>>> but it may be because it apparently only happens with US carriers, which I
>>> always avoid.
>>
>> I know exactly what Roland is talking about, and I have experienced it
>> myself on quite a number of occasions.
>
> Do you remember if you were travelling on US carriers? Roland usually
> did, while I never did if there was a choice,
> which might explain the difference in our experiences.
>

I don’t exactly remember. I have travelled to the US with Continental
(before the merger), American, US Airways, Delta, bmi, Aer Lingus,
Icelandair, and once with British Airways.

--
Jeremy Double

Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 19 Apr 2022 13:08:32 GMT, Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>>>>>>> airline tells
>>>>>>>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>>>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>>>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines
>>>>>>>>>>>> reject it as
>>>>>>>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>>>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>>>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>>>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>>>>>>> arrival.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>>>>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>>>>>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>>>>>>> entry into the US.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>>>>>>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>>>>>>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
>>>>>> never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
>>>>>> the US.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pre-screening is standard IMX, although I haven’t been across to the US
>>>>> since 2016. I was going there about three times a year at one stage.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Roland is talking about American security staff pre-screening people before
>>>> they can check in to US-bound flights. I've never seen or experienced that,
>>>> but it may be because it apparently only happens with US carriers, which I
>>>> always avoid.
>>>
>>> I know exactly what Roland is talking about, and I have experienced it
>>> myself on quite a number of occasions.
>>
>> Do you remember if you were travelling on US carriers? Roland usually
>> did, while I never did if there was a choice,
>> which might explain the difference in our experiences.
>>
>
> I don’t exactly remember. I have travelled to the US with Continental
> (before the merger), American, US Airways, Delta, bmi, Aer Lingus,
> Icelandair, and once with British Airways.
>

Based on previous discussions, I'd speculate that it only happened with the
US carriers, and not with all flights. For example, I flew American from
Gatwick to Charlotte two or three times, and encountered no pre-screening.

I wonder if this was connected with the US plan some years ago to put armed
martials on board flights? The UK probably wouldn't have allowed them to
carry their guns through UK airports, so perhaps this pre-screening was the
substitute?

On 16/04/2022 22:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 08:20:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>
>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>> arrival.
>>>
>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>
>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>> entry into the US.
>>
> The USA requires USA passport holders (single or multiple nationality)
> to use their USA passport to enter or leave the USA :-
> https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html
> [tinyurl.com/46vppjkp]

I think that a number of countries are doing that now.

On 18/04/2022 20:59, Recliner wrote:
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 09:03:05 +0300 (GMT+03:00), Clank
>> <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> Wrote in message:
>>>> A phone only has to check its own internal database of one or a fewfingerprints.
>>>> If a border check only compares the arriving fingers
>>>> with the arriving passport then that is a dirty great hole in the
>>>> security so I doubt if it is only comparing with the passport.
>>>
>>> In what sense is that a dirty great hole in the security? The
>>> passport reduces the search set to "1", by saying "this is the
>>> person whose fingerprint you are looking for".
>>>
>> If you are only checking the fingers with the passport but not
>> checking them against other records then you are only matching the
>> person with the document in their possession irrespective of how
>> genuine it is or is not.
>>
>
> Yes, just like when a human being checks passports. All the fingerprint or
> facial recognition test is doing is to check if the right person is
> proferring the passport.
>
> At the same time, the machine will be checking the passport number against
> a database of passports 'of interest'.
>

Border guards will also run the passport through a scanner or run the
numbers, however, to check it against the database.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 20:59, Recliner wrote:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 09:03:05 +0300 (GMT+03:00), Clank
>>> <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> Wrote in message:
>>>>> A phone only has to check its own internal database of one or a fewfingerprints.
>>>>> If a border check only compares the arriving fingers
>>>>> with the arriving passport then that is a dirty great hole in the
>>>>> security so I doubt if it is only comparing with the passport.
>>>>
>>>> In what sense is that a dirty great hole in the security? The
>>>> passport reduces the search set to "1", by saying "this is the
>>>> person whose fingerprint you are looking for".
>>>>
>>> If you are only checking the fingers with the passport but not
>>> checking them against other records then you are only matching the
>>> person with the document in their possession irrespective of how
>>> genuine it is or is not.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, just like when a human being checks passports. All the fingerprint or
>> facial recognition test is doing is to check if the right person is
>> proferring the passport.
>>
>> At the same time, the machine will be checking the passport number against
>> a database of passports 'of interest'.
>>
>
> Border guards will also run the passport through a scanner or run the
> numbers, however, to check it against the database.
>

Yes, they scan machine readable passports. I don't know if they manually
type in the number of any non-machine-readable passports they encounter?
It's a very long time since I had one of those.

In message <t3k7ha$puj$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:35:37 on Mon, 18 Apr
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>>>>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>>>>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>>>>
>>>> No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
>>>> never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
>>>> the US.
>>>
>>> Pre-screening is standard IMX, although I haven’t been across to the US
>>> since 2016. I was going there about three times a year at one stage.
>>>
>> Roland is talking about American security staff pre-screening people
>>before they can check in to US-bound flights. I've never seen or
>>experienced that, but it may be because it apparently only happens
>>with US carriers, which I always avoid.
>
>I've experienced pre-screening on a BA flight to Atlanta from Terminal Five.
>
>The clue that you are chosen as "random" is that you cannot check in
>online or on the self help machines at the airport.
>
>The operative conducting my "screening" was between the gate and
>boarding the plane. He was American and well trained in that he was
>only just within a tadge of being rude and any closer I would have
>complained.

That's not the pre-screening I was describing, which is a kiosk at the
entrance to the check-in queues.

I also described separate extra-screening which can occur in the
vicinity of the departure gate.
--
Roland Perry

In message <kkcr5h10a48v79e7k7gvk5sgne2k5nfllc@4ax.com>, at 19:49:25 on
Mon, 18 Apr 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:10:24 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <j11p5h5qlreh4i7d3atec0rkf75lnj5alb@4ax.com>, at 22:19:33 on
>>Sun, 17 Apr 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>remarked:
>>
>>>>Even the characteristically extra-territorial US government can't
>>>>preside over the travelling arrangement of a person between two other
>>>>third countries (unless one is somewhere like Syria, where it would
>>>>cause difficulties when the person later wanted to enter the USA).
>>>>
>>>>Although sometimes they tie themselves in knots - a friend who used to
>>>>be in their military tells me that he always had to travel with two sets
>>>>of clothes in his carry-on, because there were some countries where his
>>>>bosses insisted he MUST wear his uniform when transiting, and others
>>>>where he MUST NOT.
>>>>
>>>With some (Middle East?) countries even children in camo aren't
>>>welcome.
>>
>>Who said camo? The rule, aiui, is that commissioned officers [I'm
>>unsighted about the troops] should travel in proper uniform, except in
>>those countries where identifying themselves in that way is regarded as
>>a security risk.
>>
>That is one of the MUSTs not a MUST NOT like my example.

Sorry, can't parse that. eg What rule does the military have wrt to
non-military children who might by accident be wearing camo?
--
Roland Perry

On 19/04/2022 19:47, Roland Perry wrote:
> Sorry, can't parse that. eg What rule does the military have wrt to
> non-military children who might by accident be wearing camo?

Some countries do not allow non-military to wear camouflaged clothing,

"It's not only illegal in Barbados, but it is also illegal and/or
frowned upon in many other Caribbean islands and Central American
countries. These islands include St. Lucia, Trinidad, Antigua, and maybe
St. Kitts."

In message <t3jdi8$pva$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:12:24 on Mon, 18 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3goqd$os4$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:06:05 on Sun, 17 Apr
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3e34h$bbo$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:43:45 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> US and UK citizens can both use the same UK ePassport machines,
>>>>>>>so they're
>>>>>>> in the same (generally short) queue on arrival in the UK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/c
>>>>>> ompany/ab
>>>>>> out/performance/border-force/2022/Mar22_Immigration_performance.pdf>
>>>>>
>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports,
>>>>
>>>> Oh dear, here we go again. As it happens I was one of the original
>>>> subscribers to the UK's Iris-scanning gates. Which turned out to be
>>>> far more wobbly than advertised.
>>>
>>> Yes, we know you used to be a frequent flier 20 years ago, but things have
>>> changed since then.
>>
>> I gave the example to debunk one of your unbecoming, tedious and
>> unfounded jibes that I'm some sort of Luddite, whereas I'm a very
>> early adopter.
>
>Nobody doubts that you were once, decades ago, an early adopter. But that
>was, what, 30-40 years ago, when you worked in IT?

Why do you think I haven't "worked in IT" since then? The role I was
performing in 2010 was (like most of those before it) was very much in
the IT deliverables industry. Some might even agree that subsequent work
involved with regulating the IT industry would also qualify.

>You lost your interest in modern technology in the last century.

I'm still an early adopter. And your timeline is wonky (one of your
ongoing Achilles heels) because the Iris gates were 2005 <https://www.bb
c.co.uk/news/uk-england-17058448>

>I simply pointed out that your frequent flier days were a long time ago,

They peaked in 2010, which I don't think qualifies as "a long time ago".

>and so all your observations about flying are based on how things used to
>be, decades ago,

You are plain wrong about that. (Not least because I've been present
while people flew in and out of the UK as recently as last December.)

>> As for the Iris gates, they did have an advantage even if dysfunctional.
>> They rarely had a queue, and if they rejected you it was to the *head*
>> of the manual queue (not the rear).
>
>I don't think many people signed up with them.

Maybe they didn't, but that doesn't mean my experiences recounted above
are false.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:47:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <kkcr5h10a48v79e7k7gvk5sgne2k5nfllc@4ax.com>, at 19:49:25 on
>Mon, 18 Apr 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:10:24 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <j11p5h5qlreh4i7d3atec0rkf75lnj5alb@4ax.com>, at 22:19:33 on
>>>Sun, 17 Apr 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>remarked:
>>>
>>>>>Even the characteristically extra-territorial US government can't
>>>>>preside over the travelling arrangement of a person between two other
>>>>>third countries (unless one is somewhere like Syria, where it would
>>>>>cause difficulties when the person later wanted to enter the USA).
>>>>>
>>>>>Although sometimes they tie themselves in knots - a friend who used to
>>>>>be in their military tells me that he always had to travel with two sets
>>>>>of clothes in his carry-on, because there were some countries where his
>>>>>bosses insisted he MUST wear his uniform when transiting, and others
>>>>>where he MUST NOT.
>>>>>
>>>>With some (Middle East?) countries even children in camo aren't
>>>>welcome.
>>>
>>>Who said camo? The rule, aiui, is that commissioned officers [I'm
>>>unsighted about the troops] should travel in proper uniform, except in
>>>those countries where identifying themselves in that way is regarded as
>>>a security risk.
>>>
>>That is one of the MUSTs not a MUST NOT like my example.
>
>Sorry, can't parse that. eg What rule does the military have wrt to
>non-military children who might by accident be wearing camo?
>
You are thinking of the military's rules. I am referring to individual
states' rules applying to civilians who are incoming passengers.

On 17/04/2022 23:55, Matthew Geier wrote:
> On 18/4/22 07:16, Charles Ellson wrote:
>
>>>
>> Relying on Schengen doesn't give an absolute right to be in a country.
>> People can be sent back on the next boat/train/plane if they don't
>> qualify on grounds of work etc.
>
> I've watched Spanish border police remove some one from a cross boarder
> train from France as it appears they only had a work permit papers on
> them and not their full ID/Passport.
>
> We were delayed about 30 minutes while an argument in multiple languages
> ensured at the other end of our coach.
> In the end the passenger was escorted off the train and we departed with
> them surrounded by half a dozen uniformed border police on the platform.
> We assume they were put on the next train back into France.
>
> The Spanish have also been criticised for causing massive traffic jams
> on the motorways by insisting on checking EVERYONE who crossed the
> boarder from France.

All EU states have that right, Schengen or no.

On 19/04/2022 20:00, MB wrote:
> On 19/04/2022 19:47, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Sorry, can't parse that. eg What rule does the military have wrt to
>> non-military children who might by accident be wearing camo?
>
>
> Some countries do not allow non-military to wear camouflaged clothing,
>
> "It's not only illegal in Barbados, but it is also illegal and/or
> frowned upon in many other Caribbean islands and Central American
> countries. These islands include St. Lucia, Trinidad, Antigua, and maybe
> St. Kitts."

I hear that they also don't care for that in Sao Tome and Principe.