Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <84gl5htg716h069hoc2vr2a3l4orshvvgu@4ax.com>, at 14:12:02 on
> Sat, 16 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 07:40:56 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t3c3su$vlc$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:44:30 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check
>>>>>>>>> for people
>>>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>>>> they’ve left?
>>>>>
>>>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>>>
>>>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>>
>>> But not necessarily to the immigration department, rather than the
>>> security department.
>>
>> Are they separate? It's Border Force in the UK and the DHS in the US.
>
> I don't think you'll find that Border Force or DHS is in the business of
> issuing immigration visas (and hence checking if a person presenting
> themselves for travel is perhaps a previously-failed applicant).

Most people travel without visas, and obviously BF or DHS will know which
visas have been issued.

On 16/04/2022 09:20, Recliner wrote:
> The US system seems to know who's due to arrive.

Does it link the data so it knows that Fred Bloggs (UK passport) is the
same person as Fred Blogg (US passport)?

On 15/04/2022 15:01, Tweed wrote:
> If UK joined Schengen it would put the vendors of cross channel rubber
> boats out if business, as Boris desires, but not with the end effect that a
> large chunk of the UK population would accept.

It might put the rubber boat vendors out of business but wouldn't their
customers be able to get to the UK easier?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3e34h$bbo$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:43:45 on Sat, 16 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>> US and UK citizens can both use the same UK ePassport machines, so they're
>>>> in the same (generally short) queue on arrival in the UK.
>>>
>>> <https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/company/ab
>>> out/performance/border-force/2022/Mar22_Immigration_performance.pdf>
>>
>> Unlike you, I actually use airports,
>
> Oh dear, here we go again. As it happens I was one of the original
> subscribers to the UK's Iris-scanning gates. Which turned out to be
> far more wobbly than advertised.

Yes, we know you used to be a frequent flier 20 years ago, but things have
changed since then.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 16/04/2022 09:20, Recliner wrote:
>> The US system seems to know who's due to arrive.
>
> Does it link the data so it knows that Fred Bloggs (UK passport) is the
> same person as Fred Blogg (US passport)?
>

That's what we don't know. It may not even care: the American Fred Bloggs
would be welcomed in without problems, even if he wasn't known to be due.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3gkvq$jn$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:42 on Sun, 17 Apr 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>>
>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>
>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial
>>>> recognition isn’t
>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>
>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>
>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>> various civil liberties infringements.
>
> Passport biometric is set by International agreement, and needs to be
> consistent.

The standard allows for fingerprints, for whatever reason we’ve opted out.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04126/SN04126.pdf

The EU has set minimum standards for passports which include the use of
facial and fingerprint biometrics. The UK is not covered by the
regulations. The previous government had intended to introduce “second
generation” ePassports in 2012, which would have included fingerprint data,
in order to keep pace with the EU regulations. However, the Coalition
Government halted these plans and does not intend to extend the use of
biometrics in UK passports beyond facial biometrics

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 15/04/2022 15:01, Tweed wrote:
>> If UK joined Schengen it would put the vendors of cross channel rubber
>> boats out if business, as Boris desires, but not with the end effect that a
>> large chunk of the UK population would accept.
>
> It might put the rubber boat vendors out of business but wouldn't their
> customers be able to get to the UK easier?
>
>
>

That’s exactly my point. For whatever reasons, the UK is held in high
regard by many overseas people and is seen as a desirable place to be.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3gkvq$jn$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:42 on Sun, 17 Apr 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial
>>>>> recognition isn’t
>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>
>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>
>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>
>> Passport biometric is set by International agreement, and needs to be
>> consistent.
>
> The standard allows for fingerprints, for whatever reason we’ve opted out.
>
> https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04126/SN04126.pdf
>
> The EU has set minimum standards for passports which include the use of
> facial and fingerprint biometrics. The UK is not covered by the
> regulations. The previous government had intended to introduce “second
> generation” ePassports in 2012, which would have included fingerprint data,
> in order to keep pace with the EU regulations. However, the Coalition
> Government halted these plans and does not intend to extend the use of
> biometrics in UK passports beyond facial biometrics
>
>

I wonder if fingerprints can be taken by ePassport machines without human
supervision? Whenever I've had mine taken (and not just at the US border)
there was always a human supervisor telling you what to do, and making sure
you did it correctly. The error rate seems very high compared to facial
recognition, and it's slow.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3gkvq$jn$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:42 on Sun, 17 Apr 2022,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial
>>>>>> recognition isn’t
>>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>>
>>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>>
>>> Passport biometric is set by International agreement, and needs to be
>>> consistent.
>>
>> The standard allows for fingerprints, for whatever reason we’ve opted out.
>>
>> https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04126/SN04126.pdf
>>
>> The EU has set minimum standards for passports which include the use of
>> facial and fingerprint biometrics. The UK is not covered by the
>> regulations. The previous government had intended to introduce “second
>> generation” ePassports in 2012, which would have included fingerprint data,
>> in order to keep pace with the EU regulations. However, the Coalition
>> Government halted these plans and does not intend to extend the use of
>> biometrics in UK passports beyond facial biometrics
>>
>>
>
> I wonder if fingerprints can be taken by ePassport machines without human
> supervision? Whenever I've had mine taken (and not just at the US border)
> there was always a human supervisor telling you what to do, and making sure
> you did it correctly. The error rate seems very high compared to facial
> recognition, and it's slow.
>
>

It’s very quick on my iPad and iPhone. Enrolling is slow, but recognising
an enrolled fingerprint is very fast. If you went for a palm print, ie 5
digits at once, you only have to recognise one to get positive
identification. I doubt it is any more error prone than facial recognition.
For the latter there’s well publicised instances of people getting thorough
eGates by accidentally using their spouse’s passport.

In message <t3gnia$gt9$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:42 on Sun, 17 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3e34g$bbo$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:43:44 on Sat, 16 Apr
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>>>> airline tells the border authorities in the destination country
>>>>>>>>> the list of passports that will be arriving on a flight, but if
>>>>>>>>> a dual national chooses to use a different (unexpected) passport
>>>>>>>>> on arrival, would the machines reject it as they weren't
>>>>>>>>> expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's passport
>>>>>>>>> anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>
>>>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>>>> arrival.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>>>
>>>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would
>>>>>allow them
>>>>> entry into the US.
>>>>
>>>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>>>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>>>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>>>
>>> No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
>>> never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
>>> the US.
>>
>> Yes, we know you've reported that. I think the closest we got was
>> perhaps it being "a thing" with US-based airlines,
>
>Yes, that's what we concluded last time this came up: it seems only US
>carriers did this. BA and Virgin certainly didn't. I never fly on US
>carriers if I can help it, so never encountered this additional check (I
>doubt that it happens even on US airlines in the modern era).

Define "modern era".

>> which of course loyal US citizens are more likely to patronise. (Not
>>least because they are probably on its FF programme due to domestic
>>travel).
>
>Not really. All the trans-Atlantic airlines are members of the three major
>alliances, so their FF loyalties extend to foreign airlines in the same
>alliance.

Getting points credited cross-alliances is a nightmare. And BA was
always one of the worst (never doing it automatically).

Restricting yourself to a [European] carrier in your own Alliance isn't
likely to increase the choice of routes, so I'll stick with the idea
that most USA-ians will fly with a local carrier.

>But US government staff on official trips are supposed to fly on US
>airlines if possible. I don't know how strictly this is enforced. For
>example, is it enough to book a US airline flight number, knowing very well
>that it's actually a code-share with a superior European or Asian airline?

Or even with a worse one.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:18:59 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3gkvq$jn$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:42 on Sun, 17 Apr 2022,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial
>>>>>>> recognition isn’t
>>>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>>>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>>>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>>>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>>>
>>>> Passport biometric is set by International agreement, and needs to be
>>>> consistent.
>>>
>>> The standard allows for fingerprints, for whatever reason we’ve opted out.
>>>
>>> https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04126/SN04126.pdf
>>>
>>> The EU has set minimum standards for passports which include the use of
>>> facial and fingerprint biometrics. The UK is not covered by the
>>> regulations. The previous government had intended to introduce “second
>>> generation” ePassports in 2012, which would have included fingerprint data,
>>> in order to keep pace with the EU regulations. However, the Coalition
>>> Government halted these plans and does not intend to extend the use of
>>> biometrics in UK passports beyond facial biometrics
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I wonder if fingerprints can be taken by ePassport machines without human
>> supervision? Whenever I've had mine taken (and not just at the US border)
>> there was always a human supervisor telling you what to do, and making sure
>> you did it correctly. The error rate seems very high compared to facial
>> recognition, and it's slow.
>>
>>
>
>It’s very quick on my iPad and iPhone. Enrolling is slow, but recognising
>an enrolled fingerprint is very fast. If you went for a palm print, ie 5
>digits at once, you only have to recognise one to get positive
>identification. I doubt it is any more error prone than facial recognition.
>For the latter there’s well publicised instances of people getting thorough
>eGates by accidentally using their spouse’s passport.

I wonder how scalable that is? The iDevices have a very powerful CPU and GPU, and only have to recognise a handful of
prints. And as you say, their initial learning process is slow and cumbersome. Also, the users are well-trained and
frequent.

Without all those favourable circumstances, fingerprint scanners at borders don't work nearly as well. I've encountered
them in multiple countries, and they're never straightforward.

On 17/04/2022 13:23, Recliner wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:18:59 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I wonder if fingerprints can be taken by ePassport machines without human
>>> supervision? Whenever I've had mine taken (and not just at the US border)
>>> there was always a human supervisor telling you what to do, and making sure
>>> you did it correctly. The error rate seems very high compared to facial
>>> recognition, and it's slow.
>>
>> It’s very quick on my iPad and iPhone. Enrolling is slow, but recognising
>> an enrolled fingerprint is very fast. If you went for a palm print, ie 5
>> digits at once, you only have to recognise one to get positive
>> identification. I doubt it is any more error prone than facial recognition.
>> For the latter there’s well publicised instances of people getting thorough
>> eGates by accidentally using their spouse’s passport.
>
> I wonder how scalable that is? The iDevices have a very powerful CPU and GPU, and only have to recognise a handful of
> prints. And as you say, their initial learning process is slow and cumbersome. Also, the users are well-trained and
> frequent.
>
> Without all those favourable circumstances, fingerprint scanners at borders don't work nearly as well. I've encountered
> them in multiple countries, and they're never straightforward.

It depends what job is to be done. If it's "here's a fingerprint; guess
which of the 100 million folk on your database it belongs to", then
there will be a lot of "don't know"s (or wrong answers, depending on the
confidence threshold). If it's "the person attached to this finger
claims to be Anne X. Ample; is that amongst the 1% of names that this
print might belong to?", the process becomes quicker and more reliable.

Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 17/04/2022 13:23, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:18:59 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I wonder if fingerprints can be taken by ePassport machines without human
>>>> supervision? Whenever I've had mine taken (and not just at the US border)
>>>> there was always a human supervisor telling you what to do, and making sure
>>>> you did it correctly. The error rate seems very high compared to facial
>>>> recognition, and it's slow.
>>>
>>> It’s very quick on my iPad and iPhone. Enrolling is slow, but recognising
>>> an enrolled fingerprint is very fast. If you went for a palm print, ie 5
>>> digits at once, you only have to recognise one to get positive
>>> identification. I doubt it is any more error prone than facial recognition.
>>> For the latter there’s well publicised instances of people getting thorough
>>> eGates by accidentally using their spouse’s passport.
>>
>> I wonder how scalable that is? The iDevices have a very powerful CPU
>> and GPU, and only have to recognise a handful of
>> prints. And as you say, their initial learning process is slow and
>> cumbersome. Also, the users are well-trained and
>> frequent.
>>
>> Without all those favourable circumstances, fingerprint scanners at
>> borders don't work nearly as well. I've encountered
>> them in multiple countries, and they're never straightforward.
>
> It depends what job is to be done. If it's "here's a fingerprint; guess
> which of the 100 million folk on your database it belongs to", then
> there will be a lot of "don't know"s (or wrong answers, depending on the
> confidence threshold). If it's "the person attached to this finger
> claims to be Anne X. Ample; is that amongst the 1% of names that this
> print might belong to?", the process becomes quicker and more reliable.
>

All it needs to do is to match the fingerprint to the one recorded in the
biometric passport. No database search required. Same process for the
existing facial recognition. Your passport chip contains a copy of your
picture. All both methods are trying to do is to check that the passport
belongs to the person presenting it. The name and passport number are
enough to interrogate databases.

My supposition is that Apple are better at designing fingerprint readers
than government contractors.

In message <t3gt33$k3o$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:59 on Sun, 17 Apr
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3gkvq$jn$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:42 on Sun, 17 Apr 2022,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport
>>>>>>>>>>holders can
>>>>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual
>>>>>>>>>>lines, for people
>>>>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing
>>>>>>>>>too fast?)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial
>>>>>>> recognition isn’t
>>>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>>>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>>>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option
>>>>>of using a
>>>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>>>
>>>> Passport biometric is set by International agreement, and needs to be
>>>> consistent.
>>>
>>> The standard allows for fingerprints, for whatever reason we’ve opted out.
>>>
>>> https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04126/SN04126.pdf
>>>
>>> The EU has set minimum standards for passports which include the use
>>>of facial and fingerprint biometrics. The UK is not covered by the
>>>regulations. The previous government had intended to introduce
>>>“second generation” ePassports in 2012, which would have
>>>included fingerprint data, in order to keep pace with the EU
>>>regulations. However, the Coalition Government halted these plans
>>>and does not intend to extend the use of biometrics in UK passports
>>>beyond facial biometrics
>>
>> I wonder if fingerprints can be taken by ePassport machines without human
>> supervision? Whenever I've had mine taken (and not just at the US border)
>> there was always a human supervisor telling you what to do, and making sure
>> you did it correctly. The error rate seems very high compared to facial
>> recognition, and it's slow.
>
>It’s very quick on my iPad and iPhone. Enrolling is slow, but recognising
>an enrolled fingerprint is very fast.

And what false positive rate is it specified for? Your phone doesn't
have hundreds of thousands of people attempting to log into it, unlike
passport gates.

It's like the much hated fingerprint recognition technology for paying
for school meals. There's only a population of about thousand you need
to cope with, not eight billion.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t3gnia$gt9$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:42 on Sun, 17 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines,
>>>>>>>for people
>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>>
>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>
>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial
>>>>recognition isn’t
>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>
>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>
>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>> various civil liberties infringements.
>
>The passports don't include fingerprints.

Yes, because in the UK the authorities traditionally only routinely
fingerprint criminals. And that mud sticks.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:07:22 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 17/04/2022 13:23, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:18:59 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I wonder if fingerprints can be taken by ePassport machines without human
>>>>> supervision? Whenever I've had mine taken (and not just at the US border)
>>>>> there was always a human supervisor telling you what to do, and making sure
>>>>> you did it correctly. The error rate seems very high compared to facial
>>>>> recognition, and it's slow.
>>>>
>>>> It’s very quick on my iPad and iPhone. Enrolling is slow, but recognising
>>>> an enrolled fingerprint is very fast. If you went for a palm print, ie 5
>>>> digits at once, you only have to recognise one to get positive
>>>> identification. I doubt it is any more error prone than facial recognition.
>>>> For the latter there’s well publicised instances of people getting thorough
>>>> eGates by accidentally using their spouse’s passport.
>>>
>>> I wonder how scalable that is? The iDevices have a very powerful CPU
>>> and GPU, and only have to recognise a handful of
>>> prints. And as you say, their initial learning process is slow and
>>> cumbersome. Also, the users are well-trained and
>>> frequent.
>>>
>>> Without all those favourable circumstances, fingerprint scanners at
>>> borders don't work nearly as well. I've encountered
>>> them in multiple countries, and they're never straightforward.
>>
>> It depends what job is to be done. If it's "here's a fingerprint; guess
>> which of the 100 million folk on your database it belongs to", then
>> there will be a lot of "don't know"s (or wrong answers, depending on the
>> confidence threshold). If it's "the person attached to this finger
>> claims to be Anne X. Ample; is that amongst the 1% of names that this
>> print might belong to?", the process becomes quicker and more reliable.
>>
>
>All it needs to do is to match the fingerprint to the one recorded in the
>biometric passport. No database search required. Same process for the
>existing facial recognition. Your passport chip contains a copy of your
>picture. All both methods are trying to do is to check that the passport
>belongs to the person presenting it. The name and passport number are
>enough to interrogate databases.
>
>My supposition is that Apple are better at designing fingerprint readers
>than government contractors.

Or, specifically, it spends more on them (both the sensor and the computer power to do the processing).

Of course, Apple uses facial recognition rather than fingerprint scans in the more professional devices (modern iPad
Pros). Perhaps that's more secure or more reliable?

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:05:32 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t3gnia$gt9$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:42 on Sun, 17 Apr
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines,
>>>>>>>>for people
>>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial
>>>>>recognition isn’t
>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>
>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>
>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>
>>The passports don't include fingerprints.
>
>Yes, because in the UK the authorities traditionally only routinely
>fingerprint criminals. And that mud sticks.

Is it different in other countries? Do normal, law-abiding citizens routinely get their fingerprints scanned? It's not
something I've come across.

On 17/04/2022 14:05, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t3gnia$gt9$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:42 on Sun, 17 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport
>>>>>>>> holders can
>>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines,
>>>>>>>> for people
>>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>> must add  to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>> it a legal thing  or a technology problem (features changing too
>>>>>>> fast?)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial
>>>>> recognition isn’t
>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>
>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology
>>>> point
>>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I
>>>> expect a
>>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>
>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of
>>> using a
>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>
>> The passports don't include fingerprints.
>
> Yes, because in the UK the authorities traditionally only routinely
> fingerprint criminals. And that mud sticks.

The UK fingerprints those arrested not when some become convicted criminals.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:07:22 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>> On 17/04/2022 13:23, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:18:59 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I wonder if fingerprints can be taken by ePassport machines without human
>>>>>> supervision? Whenever I've had mine taken (and not just at the US border)
>>>>>> there was always a human supervisor telling you what to do, and making sure
>>>>>> you did it correctly. The error rate seems very high compared to facial
>>>>>> recognition, and it's slow.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s very quick on my iPad and iPhone. Enrolling is slow, but recognising
>>>>> an enrolled fingerprint is very fast. If you went for a palm print, ie 5
>>>>> digits at once, you only have to recognise one to get positive
>>>>> identification. I doubt it is any more error prone than facial recognition.
>>>>> For the latter there’s well publicised instances of people getting thorough
>>>>> eGates by accidentally using their spouse’s passport.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder how scalable that is? The iDevices have a very powerful CPU
>>>> and GPU, and only have to recognise a handful of
>>>> prints. And as you say, their initial learning process is slow and
>>>> cumbersome. Also, the users are well-trained and
>>>> frequent.
>>>>
>>>> Without all those favourable circumstances, fingerprint scanners at
>>>> borders don't work nearly as well. I've encountered
>>>> them in multiple countries, and they're never straightforward.
>>>
>>> It depends what job is to be done. If it's "here's a fingerprint; guess
>>> which of the 100 million folk on your database it belongs to", then
>>> there will be a lot of "don't know"s (or wrong answers, depending on the
>>> confidence threshold). If it's "the person attached to this finger
>>> claims to be Anne X. Ample; is that amongst the 1% of names that this
>>> print might belong to?", the process becomes quicker and more reliable.
>>>
>>
>> All it needs to do is to match the fingerprint to the one recorded in the
>> biometric passport. No database search required. Same process for the
>> existing facial recognition. Your passport chip contains a copy of your
>> picture. All both methods are trying to do is to check that the passport
>> belongs to the person presenting it. The name and passport number are
>> enough to interrogate databases.
>>
>> My supposition is that Apple are better at designing fingerprint readers
>> than government contractors.
>
> Or, specifically, it spends more on them (both the sensor and the
> computer power to do the processing).
>
> Of course, Apple uses facial recognition rather than fingerprint scans in
> the more professional devices (modern iPad
> Pros). Perhaps that's more secure or more reliable?
>

They’ve been desperate to remove anything that creates a bezel. The FaceID
via a camera isn’t as reliable or secure. They’ve not cracked putting the
fingerprint sensor under the glass display. Some of the newer iPads have
the sensor on the side power button, in addition to the option to use
FaceID.

Give the cost of an eGate I’d imagine adding the compute power of an iPad
would be trivial.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3gt33$k3o$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:59 on Sun, 17 Apr
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3gkvq$jn$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:42 on Sun, 17 Apr 2022,
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport
>>>>>>>>>>> holders can
>>>>>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual
>>>>>>>>>>> lines, for people
>>>>>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing
>>>>>>>>>> too fast?)?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial
>>>>>>>> recognition isn’t
>>>>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>>>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>>>>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>>>>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option
>>>>>> of using a
>>>>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>>>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>>>>
>>>>> Passport biometric is set by International agreement, and needs to be
>>>>> consistent.
>>>>
>>>> The standard allows for fingerprints, for whatever reason we’ve opted out.
>>>>
>>>> https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04126/SN04126.pdf
>>>>
>>>> The EU has set minimum standards for passports which include the use
>>>> of facial and fingerprint biometrics. The UK is not covered by the
>>>> regulations. The previous government had intended to introduce
>>>> “second generation” ePassports in 2012, which would have
>>>> included fingerprint data, in order to keep pace with the EU
>>>> regulations. However, the Coalition Government halted these plans
>>>> and does not intend to extend the use of biometrics in UK passports
>>>> beyond facial biometrics
>>>
>>> I wonder if fingerprints can be taken by ePassport machines without human
>>> supervision? Whenever I've had mine taken (and not just at the US border)
>>> there was always a human supervisor telling you what to do, and making sure
>>> you did it correctly. The error rate seems very high compared to facial
>>> recognition, and it's slow.
>>
>> It’s very quick on my iPad and iPhone. Enrolling is slow, but recognising
>> an enrolled fingerprint is very fast.
>
> And what false positive rate is it specified for? Your phone doesn't
> have hundreds of thousands of people attempting to log into it, unlike
> passport gates.
>
> It's like the much hated fingerprint recognition technology for paying
> for school meals. There's only a population of about thousand you need
> to cope with, not eight billion.

My phone doesn’t learn each day, getting to know me better. It simply
compares what it senses against the stored token of my fingerprint. If that
token changes it would recognise someone else. Your passport would present
the token for you, so it doesn’t matter if there’s thousands of people
using it. The school system doesn’t have the pupil presenting the token. I
also expect the school systems use some sort of cheap and nasty sensor. I
have two laptops with fingerprint sensors and they are hopeless in
comparison to the Apple sensors.

The system doesn’t have ti be perfect, the existing camera based systems
aren’t - given the stories of people being admitted on the passports of
others.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3gnia$gt9$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:42 on Sun, 17 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines,
>>>>>>>> for people
>>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial
>>>>> recognition isn’t
>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>
>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>
>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>
>> The passports don't include fingerprints.
>
> Yes, because in the UK the authorities traditionally only routinely
> fingerprint criminals. And that mud sticks.

I fear you’ve hit the nail on the head. I was advocating an opt in system.
Being stuck in a manual passport queue with <12 year olds must be fairly
terrible.

On 17/04/2022 14:05, Roland Perry wrote:
> Yes, because in the UK the authorities traditionally only routinely
> fingerprint criminals. And that mud sticks.

And many people do not trust the - didn't they change the rules so they
no longer destroy fingerprints taken for elimination and add to those
stored.

On 17/04/2022 15:33, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
> The UK fingerprints those arrested not when some become convicted criminals.

And don't they keep the figerprints of those people even though not
convicted of anything?

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 17/04/2022 15:33, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>> The UK fingerprints those arrested not when some become convicted criminals.
>
> And don't they keep the figerprints of those people even though not
> convicted of anything?
>
>
>

Similar issues with retained DNA samples. Now there’s an idea for a
passport gate - spit and go.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:04:37 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:07:22 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>> On 17/04/2022 13:23, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:18:59 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I wonder if fingerprints can be taken by ePassport machines without human
>>>>>>> supervision? Whenever I've had mine taken (and not just at the US border)
>>>>>>> there was always a human supervisor telling you what to do, and making sure
>>>>>>> you did it correctly. The error rate seems very high compared to facial
>>>>>>> recognition, and it's slow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s very quick on my iPad and iPhone. Enrolling is slow, but recognising
>>>>>> an enrolled fingerprint is very fast. If you went for a palm print, ie 5
>>>>>> digits at once, you only have to recognise one to get positive
>>>>>> identification. I doubt it is any more error prone than facial recognition.
>>>>>> For the latter there’s well publicised instances of people getting thorough
>>>>>> eGates by accidentally using their spouse’s passport.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder how scalable that is? The iDevices have a very powerful CPU
>>>>> and GPU, and only have to recognise a handful of
>>>>> prints. And as you say, their initial learning process is slow and
>>>>> cumbersome. Also, the users are well-trained and
>>>>> frequent.
>>>>>
>>>>> Without all those favourable circumstances, fingerprint scanners at
>>>>> borders don't work nearly as well. I've encountered
>>>>> them in multiple countries, and they're never straightforward.
>>>>
>>>> It depends what job is to be done. If it's "here's a fingerprint; guess
>>>> which of the 100 million folk on your database it belongs to", then
>>>> there will be a lot of "don't know"s (or wrong answers, depending on the
>>>> confidence threshold). If it's "the person attached to this finger
>>>> claims to be Anne X. Ample; is that amongst the 1% of names that this
>>>> print might belong to?", the process becomes quicker and more reliable.
>>>>
>>>
>>> All it needs to do is to match the fingerprint to the one recorded in the
>>> biometric passport. No database search required. Same process for the
>>> existing facial recognition. Your passport chip contains a copy of your
>>> picture. All both methods are trying to do is to check that the passport
>>> belongs to the person presenting it. The name and passport number are
>>> enough to interrogate databases.
>>>
>>> My supposition is that Apple are better at designing fingerprint readers
>>> than government contractors.
>>
>> Or, specifically, it spends more on them (both the sensor and the
>> computer power to do the processing).
>>
>> Of course, Apple uses facial recognition rather than fingerprint scans in
>> the more professional devices (modern iPad
>> Pros). Perhaps that's more secure or more reliable?
>>
>
>They’ve been desperate to remove anything that creates a bezel. The FaceID
>via a camera isn’t as reliable or secure. They’ve not cracked putting the
>fingerprint sensor under the glass display.

You need an OLED display for that, which my inexpensive Android phone has. The fingerprint recognition through the
screen works well with that.

> Some of the newer iPads have
>the sensor on the side power button, in addition to the option to use
>FaceID.
>
>Give the cost of an eGate I’d imagine adding the compute power of an iPad
>would be trivial.

Yes, you'd think so, so there must be some other barrier. I speculate that it just takes too long and needs too much
human supervision to be viable.