On 18/04/2022 17:18, Recliner wrote:
> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>>>> airline tells
>>>>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines
>>>>>>>>> reject it as
>>>>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>>>> arrival.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>>>
>>>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>>>> entry into the US.
>>>>
>>>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>>>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>>>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>>>
>>> No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
>>> never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
>>> the US.
>>
>> Pre-screening is standard IMX, although I haven’t been across to the US
>> since 2016. I was going there about three times a year at one stage.
>>
>
> Roland is talking about American security staff pre-screening people before
> they can check in to US-bound flights. I've never seen or experienced that,
> but it may be because it apparently only happens with US carriers, which I
> always avoid.
>

I've experienced pre-screening on a BA flight to Atlanta from Terminal Five.

The clue that you are chosen as "random" is that you cannot check in
online or on the self help machines at the airport.

The operative conducting my "screening" was between the gate and
boarding the plane. He was American and well trained in that he was
only just within a tadge of being rude and any closer I would have
complained.

All of the contents of my rucksack were carefully examined and several
swabs taken and tested. I was also thoroughly body searched.

All of this was done in full view of other passengers so I did have
cause for complaint.

I was being called even before the gate was due to close but was last to
board the plane. We departed late because some baggage had to be removed.

On 18/04/2022 17:14, Tweed wrote:
> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>
>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Couldn’t or wouldn’t? ie error or deliberately programmed to reject? Bit
>>> like my Anytime ticket that wouldn’t open the gate line because of an
>>> associated rail card.
>>
>> I had that issue with a Senior Anytime ticket at Huddersfield station a few
>> weeks ago. It was back to normal (i.e. accepting my ticket) when I
>> travelled the following week.
>>
>
> Having now read up on eGates, 12 to 17 year olds have to be accompanied. In
> practice that means they have to go in immediately after the parent or
> through an adjacent gate. A 12 to 17 year old passport flashes up and alert
> to the border force officer supervising the gates. If they can’t
> immediately identify accompanying adult the gate is not released and the
> child has to go through to the manual desk. How they identify the
> accompanying adult when surnames are different I have no idea. Perhaps the
> group is linked by the advance passenger info. This probably explains why
> the teenager daughters couldn’t get through - they were probably separated
> from the adult.
>
> There seems to be a bit of a thing about unaccompanied children. Around a
> decade ago my 16 year old son flew back from somewhere on his own and was
> going to get the train back from the airport. Border Force wouldn’t let him
> go until they had phoned me to confirm the travel arrangements.
>
> Further reading indicates that at Glasgow airport they turn the eGates off
> when flights from Romania come in, such is the perceived risk of child
> smuggling.
>

I've just read the report mentioned earlier. It's my opinion that the
eGates should not be used for children until the staff are fully
trained. There is too little protection for children travelling for
nefarious purposes.

On 18/04/2022 14:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
> Never had an eye test? Similar sort of arrangement.

Many times but they are cleaned between each user.

On 18/04/2022 11:12, Recliner wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3goqd$os4$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:06:05 on Sun, 17 Apr
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3e34h$bbo$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:43:45 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> US and UK citizens can both use the same UK ePassport machines, so they're
>>>>>>> in the same (generally short) queue on arrival in the UK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/c
>>>>>> ompany/ab
>>>>>> out/performance/border-force/2022/Mar22_Immigration_performance.pdf>
>>>>>
>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports,
>>>>
>>>> Oh dear, here we go again. As it happens I was one of the original
>>>> subscribers to the UK's Iris-scanning gates. Which turned out to be
>>>> far more wobbly than advertised.
>>>
>>> Yes, we know you used to be a frequent flier 20 years ago, but things have
>>> changed since then.
>>
>> I gave the example to debunk one of your unbecoming, tedious and
>> unfounded jibes that I'm some sort of Luddite, whereas I'm a very
>> early adopter.
>
> Nobody doubts that you were once, decades ago, an early adopter. But that
> was, what, 30-40 years ago, when you worked in IT? You lost your interest
> in modern technology in the last century.
>
> I simply pointed out that your frequent flier days were a long time ago,
> and so all your observations about flying are based on how things used to
> be, decades ago, and not how they are now. You ought to make this clear
> when you share your historical reminiscences with us.
>
>>
>> As for the Iris gates, they did have an advantage even if dysfunctional.
>> They rarely had a queue, and if they rejected you it was to the *head*
>> of the manual queue (not the rear).
>
> I don't think many people signed up with them.
>

Well I did too, and agree with Roland. They mostly worked well, and if they didn't you got to the head of the manual queue. I was annoyed that the system was abolished not all that long after I signed up to it.

--
Clive Page

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 17:14, Tweed wrote:
>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Couldn’t or wouldn’t? ie error or deliberately programmed to reject? Bit
>>>> like my Anytime ticket that wouldn’t open the gate line because of an
>>>> associated rail card.
>>>
>>> I had that issue with a Senior Anytime ticket at Huddersfield station a few
>>> weeks ago. It was back to normal (i.e. accepting my ticket) when I
>>> travelled the following week.
>>>
>>
>> Having now read up on eGates, 12 to 17 year olds have to be accompanied. In
>> practice that means they have to go in immediately after the parent or
>> through an adjacent gate. A 12 to 17 year old passport flashes up and alert
>> to the border force officer supervising the gates. If they can’t
>> immediately identify accompanying adult the gate is not released and the
>> child has to go through to the manual desk. How they identify the
>> accompanying adult when surnames are different I have no idea. Perhaps the
>> group is linked by the advance passenger info. This probably explains why
>> the teenager daughters couldn’t get through - they were probably separated
>> from the adult.
>>
>> There seems to be a bit of a thing about unaccompanied children. Around a
>> decade ago my 16 year old son flew back from somewhere on his own and was
>> going to get the train back from the airport. Border Force wouldn’t let him
>> go until they had phoned me to confirm the travel arrangements.
>>
>> Further reading indicates that at Glasgow airport they turn the eGates off
>> when flights from Romania come in, such is the perceived risk of child
>> smuggling.
>>
>
> I've just read the report mentioned earlier. It's my opinion that the
> eGates should not be used for children until the staff are fully
> trained. There is too little protection for children travelling for
> nefarious purposes.
>

Maybe, but I’m afraid your opinions count for nothing in the face of budget
cuts. The clear reason for eGates is to allow for (at least one of the
years quoted) an 11% budget cut and a 5% increase in passengers processed
(presumably pre covid). There’s clearly little proper training going on
given the statistics quoted in the report.

On 18/04/2022 18:57, MB wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 14:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> Never had an eye test? Similar sort of arrangement.
>
> Many times but they are cleaned between each user.

I meant the remote scanning of your eye.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 05:48:47 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 10:29:52 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> If UK joined Schengen it would put the vendors of cross channel rubber
>>>>> boats out if business, as Boris desires, but not with the end effect that a
>>>>> large chunk of the UK population would accept.
>>>>
>>>> It might put the rubber boat vendors out of business but wouldn't their
>>>> customers be able to get to the UK easier?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> That?s exactly my point. For whatever reasons, the UK is held in high
>>> regard by many overseas people and is seen as a desirable place to be.
>>>
>> Relying on Schengen doesn't give an absolute right to be in a country.
>> People can be sent back on the next boat/train/plane if they don't
>> qualify on grounds of work etc.
>>
>
>I never stated that Schengen gives a right to entry, but for practical
>purposes it makes it very difficult to keep people from other Schengen
>countries out, that being the point after all.
>
It might be difficult to keep them out but an undesirable presence
usually takes more than five minutes to arise.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:07:22 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> My supposition is that Apple are better at designing fingerprint readers
>> than government contractors.
>
> Or, specifically, it spends more on them (both the sensor and the
> computer power to do the processing).
>
> Of course, Apple uses facial recognition rather than fingerprint scans in
> the more professional devices (modern iPad
> Pros). Perhaps that's more secure or more reliable?
>

I think the reason for the change was that the button/fingerprint reader
was taking up too much space on the front of the device, which is now
occupied by larger screen.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:05:32 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <t3gnia$gt9$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:42 on Sun, 17 Apr
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines,
>>>>>>>>> for people
>>>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial
>>>>>> recognition isn’t
>>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>>
>>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>>
>>> The passports don't include fingerprints.
>>
>> Yes, because in the UK the authorities traditionally only routinely
>> fingerprint criminals. And that mud sticks.
>
> Is it different in other countries? Do normal, law-abiding citizens
> routinely get their fingerprints scanned? It's not
> something I've come across.
>

I had my fingerprints taken entering a country (and again leaving). I can't
remember which one though, most likely one out of Hong Kong, Singapore or
Taiwan.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:10:24 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <j11p5h5qlreh4i7d3atec0rkf75lnj5alb@4ax.com>, at 22:19:33 on
>Sun, 17 Apr 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>
>>>Even the characteristically extra-territorial US government can't
>>>preside over the travelling arrangement of a person between two other
>>>third countries (unless one is somewhere like Syria, where it would
>>>cause difficulties when the person later wanted to enter the USA).
>>>
>>>Although sometimes they tie themselves in knots - a friend who used to
>>>be in their military tells me that he always had to travel with two sets
>>>of clothes in his carry-on, because there were some countries where his
>>>bosses insisted he MUST wear his uniform when transiting, and others
>>>where he MUST NOT.
>>>
>>With some (Middle East?) countries even children in camo aren't
>>welcome.
>
>Who said camo? The rule, aiui, is that commissioned officers [I'm
>unsighted about the troops] should travel in proper uniform, except in
>those countries where identifying themselves in that way is regarded as
>a security risk.
>
That is one of the MUSTs not a MUST NOT like my example.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 09:03:05 +0300 (GMT+03:00), Clank
<clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> Wrote in message:
>> A phone only has to check its own internal database of one or a fewfingerprints.
>> If a border check only compares the arriving fingers
>> with the arriving passport then that is a dirty great hole in the
>> security so I doubt if it is only comparing with the passport.
>
>In what sense is that a dirty great hole in the security? The
> passport reduces the search set to "1", by saying "this is the
> person whose fingerprint you are looking for".
>
If you are only checking the fingers with the passport but not
checking them against other records then you are only matching the
person with the document in their possession irrespective of how
genuine it is or is not.

<snip>

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 17:18, Recliner wrote:
>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>>>>> airline tells
>>>>>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines
>>>>>>>>>> reject it as
>>>>>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>>>>> arrival.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>>>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>>>>> entry into the US.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>>>>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>>>>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>>>>
>>>> No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
>>>> never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
>>>> the US.
>>>
>>> Pre-screening is standard IMX, although I haven’t been across to the US
>>> since 2016. I was going there about three times a year at one stage.
>>>
>>
>> Roland is talking about American security staff pre-screening people before
>> they can check in to US-bound flights. I've never seen or experienced that,
>> but it may be because it apparently only happens with US carriers, which I
>> always avoid.
>>
>
> I've experienced pre-screening on a BA flight to Atlanta from Terminal Five.
>
> The clue that you are chosen as "random" is that you cannot check in
> online or on the self help machines at the airport.
>
> The operative conducting my "screening" was between the gate and
> boarding the plane. He was American and well trained in that he was
> only just within a tadge of being rude and any closer I would have
> complained.
>
> All of the contents of my rucksack were carefully examined and several
> swabs taken and tested. I was also thoroughly body searched.
>
> All of this was done in full view of other passengers so I did have
> cause for complaint.
>
> I was being called even before the gate was due to close but was last to
> board the plane. We departed late because some baggage had to be removed.
>

That's not pre-screening. It's a supposedly random (but probably not)
security check, which is something completely different.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:07:22 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> My supposition is that Apple are better at designing fingerprint readers
>>> than government contractors.
>>
>> Or, specifically, it spends more on them (both the sensor and the
>> computer power to do the processing).
>>
>> Of course, Apple uses facial recognition rather than fingerprint scans in
>> the more professional devices (modern iPad
>> Pros). Perhaps that's more secure or more reliable?
>>
>
> I think the reason for the change was that the button/fingerprint reader
> was taking up too much space on the front of the device, which is now
> occupied by larger screen.
>

Yes, but it was subsequently moved to a side button on the lesser devices,
so that reason for using facial recognition on the Pro model no longer
applies.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:05:32 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t3gnia$gt9$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:42 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines,
>>>>>>>>>> for people
>>>>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial
>>>>>>> recognition isn’t
>>>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>>>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>>>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>>>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>>>
>>>> The passports don't include fingerprints.
>>>
>>> Yes, because in the UK the authorities traditionally only routinely
>>> fingerprint criminals. And that mud sticks.
>>
>> Is it different in other countries? Do normal, law-abiding citizens
>> routinely get their fingerprints scanned? It's not
>> something I've come across.
>>
>
> I had my fingerprints taken entering a country (and again leaving). I can't
> remember which one though, most likely one out of Hong Kong, Singapore or
> Taiwan.
>

I meant other than at borders. It was probably at Hong Kong.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 09:03:05 +0300 (GMT+03:00), Clank
> <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> Wrote in message:
>>> A phone only has to check its own internal database of one or a fewfingerprints.
>>> If a border check only compares the arriving fingers
>>> with the arriving passport then that is a dirty great hole in the
>>> security so I doubt if it is only comparing with the passport.
>>
>> In what sense is that a dirty great hole in the security? The
>> passport reduces the search set to "1", by saying "this is the
>> person whose fingerprint you are looking for".
>>
> If you are only checking the fingers with the passport but not
> checking them against other records then you are only matching the
> person with the document in their possession irrespective of how
> genuine it is or is not.
>

Yes, just like when a human being checks passports. All the fingerprint or
facial recognition test is doing is to check if the right person is
proferring the passport.

At the same time, the machine will be checking the passport number against
a database of passports 'of interest'.

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> Wrote in message:
>> If you are only checking the fingers with the passport but not
>> checking them against other records then you are only matching the
>> ×person with the document in their possession irrespective of how
>> genuine it is or is not.<snip>
>
> Of course. What do you think border control staff are doing when
> they take your passport and then ask you to take your sunglassess
> off? Running your face through a Terminator-style facial
> recognition database in their head?
>
> Biometrics in passports enable automation (with a bonus of higher
> accuracy) of checking whether or not the passport holder matches
> the passport. Nothing more.
>
> Of course, once you're satisfied that the passport matches the
> person, there are other databases and systems which you can then
> check the passport against, increasingly sophisticated ones. But
> they have nothing to do with biometrics per se.
>
>
> And yes, if you can forge a biometric passport you have exactly
> the same problem you have if you can forge a non biometric
> passport. There is nothing inherent in biometric passports that
> makes them impossible to forge. However, they are a lot harder
> to forge partly because the technology is just more complex, but
> also because you'll need to compromise the cryptographic keys
> used to sign the data. On the positive side, one advantage that
> they have over traditional passports is that if you identify a
> compromised key being used to produce forgeries you can revoke
> that key and immediately disable those passports.
>
>
>
>

And getting that thread that has only one ply that lights up under UV is
also hard :)

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>> Is it different in other countries? Do normal, law-abiding citizens
>>> routinely get their fingerprints scanned? It's not
>>> something I've come across.
>>
>> In North America if you have a Global Entry or NEXUS card which lets
>> you use e-gates at US and (for NEXUS) Canadian airport immigration,
>> they now use fingerprints. NEXUS used to use iris scans but for some
>> reason they switched. The iris scans worked reasonably well unlike the
>> UK ones a decade ago.
>>
>
> I should have made clearer that I was thinking of routine regular finger
> printing of normal, law abusing citizens, other than at borders. I've been
> finger printed at several countries' borders, but nowhere else. Roland
> seemed to be suggesting that the UK was unusual in not requiring finger
> print scans in other circumstances, and I was asking where/when/which other
> countries required them.
>
> Of course, millions of us happily give our fingerprints every day to access
> our own devices. And, I assume, some workplaces require fingerprint scans
> for access.

As some security people point out, the trouble with using a fingerprint for
access to resources is that, unlike a password, you can’t change or revoke
it if it’s compromised. The same is true for all biometrics. You really
need the “something you have and something you know” pairing, where your
biometric is the something you have.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 17/04/2022 10:44, Recliner wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>>
>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>
>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial recognition isn’t
>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>
>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>
>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>> various civil liberties infringements.
>
> The passports don't include fingerprints.
>

Some do, IIRC, depending on the issuing state.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 17/04/2022 10:44, Recliner wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial recognition isn’t
>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>
>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>
>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>
>> The passports don't include fingerprints.
>>
>
> Some do, IIRC, depending on the issuing state.
>

Not UK passports, old or new, but perhaps other countries do?

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:00:54 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>> Is it different in other countries? Do normal, law-abiding citizens
>>>> routinely get their fingerprints scanned? It's not
>>>> something I've come across.
>>>
>>> In North America if you have a Global Entry or NEXUS card which lets
>>> you use e-gates at US and (for NEXUS) Canadian airport immigration,
>>> they now use fingerprints. NEXUS used to use iris scans but for some
>>> reason they switched. The iris scans worked reasonably well unlike the
>>> UK ones a decade ago.
>>>
>>
>> I should have made clearer that I was thinking of routine regular finger
>> printing of normal, law abusing citizens, other than at borders. I've been
>> finger printed at several countries' borders, but nowhere else. Roland
>> seemed to be suggesting that the UK was unusual in not requiring finger
>> print scans in other circumstances, and I was asking where/when/which other
>> countries required them.
>>
>> Of course, millions of us happily give our fingerprints every day to access
>> our own devices. And, I assume, some workplaces require fingerprint scans
>> for access.
>
>As some security people point out, the trouble with using a fingerprint for
>access to resources is that, unlike a password, you can’t change or revoke
>it if it’s compromised. The same is true for all biometrics. You really
>need the “something you have and something you know” pairing, where your
>biometric is the something you have.
>
Fingerprints can make things less secure as often proven by holding an
unconscious person's finger to their phone in the process of
identifying them.

On 19/04/2022 00:58, Recliner wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 17/04/2022 10:44, Recliner wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial recognition isn’t
>>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>>
>>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>>
>>> The passports don't include fingerprints.
>>>
>>
>> Some do, IIRC, depending on the issuing state.
>>
>
> Not UK passports, old or new, but perhaps other countries do?
>

Depending on the issuing state, I said. Believe me, I know that UK
passports do not have them.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/04/2022 00:58, Recliner wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 17/04/2022 10:44, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial recognition isn’t
>>>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>>>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>>>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>>>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>>>
>>>> The passports don't include fingerprints.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Some do, IIRC, depending on the issuing state.
>>>
>>
>> Not UK passports, old or new, but perhaps other countries do?
>>
>
> Depending on the issuing state, I said. Believe me, I know that UK
> passports do not have them.
>

Which countries do, and which borders check them?

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:00:54 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>> Is it different in other countries? Do normal, law-abiding citizens
>>>>> routinely get their fingerprints scanned? It's not
>>>>> something I've come across.
>>>>
>>>> In North America if you have a Global Entry or NEXUS card which lets
>>>> you use e-gates at US and (for NEXUS) Canadian airport immigration,
>>>> they now use fingerprints. NEXUS used to use iris scans but for some
>>>> reason they switched. The iris scans worked reasonably well unlike the
>>>> UK ones a decade ago.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I should have made clearer that I was thinking of routine regular finger
>>> printing of normal, law abusing citizens, other than at borders. I've been
>>> finger printed at several countries' borders, but nowhere else. Roland
>>> seemed to be suggesting that the UK was unusual in not requiring finger
>>> print scans in other circumstances, and I was asking where/when/which other
>>> countries required them.
>>>
>>> Of course, millions of us happily give our fingerprints every day to access
>>> our own devices. And, I assume, some workplaces require fingerprint scans
>>> for access.
>>
>> As some security people point out, the trouble with using a fingerprint for
>> access to resources is that, unlike a password, you can’t change or revoke
>> it if it’s compromised. The same is true for all biometrics. You really
>> need the “something you have and something you know” pairing, where your
>> biometric is the something you have.
>>
> Fingerprints can make things less secure as often proven by holding an
> unconscious person's finger to their phone in the process of
> identifying them.
>

But somewhat obvious at a passport gate.

On 19/04/2022 00:58, Recliner wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 17/04/2022 10:44, Recliner wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial recognition isn’t
>>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>>
>>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>>
>>> The passports don't include fingerprints.
>>>
>>
>> Some do, IIRC, depending on the issuing state.
>>
>
> Not UK passports, old or new, but perhaps other countries do?
>

Argentina, as do their ID cards.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:24:47 +0100, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>>>>
>>>
>>> Couldn’t or wouldn’t? ie error or deliberately programmed to reject? Bit
>>> like my Anytime ticket that wouldn’t open the gate line because of an
>>> associated rail card.
>>
>> I had that issue with a Senior Anytime ticket at Huddersfield station a few
>> weeks ago. It was back to normal (i.e. accepting my ticket) when I
>> travelled the following week.
>>
>
>Seems to be a fairly routine thing to programme a gateline to reject
>tickets bought with railcards recently. Had it a couple of times,
>including at Waterloo, which caused a certain amount of chaos as a lot
>of students were travelling and they overwhelmed the number of grippers
>available to check railcards.

Yes. Bishop's Stortford rejects my ticket routinely when trying to
leave the station during the evening peak. I'm not sure whether it's
because I have a railcard or because its an off-peak ticket that I'm
using during the peak and the gates aren't granular enough to
distinguish off-peak (valid) from super off-peak (invalid - unless
it's a school holiday in Suffolk).