On 17/04/2022 16:09, MB wrote:
> On 17/04/2022 15:33, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>> The UK fingerprints those arrested not when some become convicted
>> criminals.
>
> And don't they keep the figerprints of those people even though not
> convicted of anything?
>
>
They do.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3gnia$gt9$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:42 on Sun, 17 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3e34g$bbo$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:43:44 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>>>>> airline tells the border authorities in the destination country
>>>>>>>>>> the list of passports that will be arriving on a flight, but if
>>>>>>>>>> a dual national chooses to use a different (unexpected) passport
>>>>>>>>>> on arrival, would the machines reject it as they weren't
>>>>>>>>>> expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's passport
>>>>>>>>>> anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>>>>> arrival.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>>>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would
>>>>>> allow them
>>>>>> entry into the US.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>>>>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>>>>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>>>>
>>>> No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
>>>> never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
>>>> the US.
>>>
>>> Yes, we know you've reported that. I think the closest we got was
>>> perhaps it being "a thing" with US-based airlines,
>>
>> Yes, that's what we concluded last time this came up: it seems only US
>> carriers did this. BA and Virgin certainly didn't. I never fly on US
>> carriers if I can help it, so never encountered this additional check (I
>> doubt that it happens even on US airlines in the modern era).
>
> Define "modern era".

Say, from 2010.

>
>>> which of course loyal US citizens are more likely to patronise. (Not
>>> least because they are probably on its FF programme due to domestic
>>> travel).
>>
>> Not really. All the trans-Atlantic airlines are members of the three major
>> alliances, so their FF loyalties extend to foreign airlines in the same
>> alliance.
>
> Getting points credited cross-alliances is a nightmare.

I assume you meant to mention that this was sometimes the case 15-20 years
ago, when you still flew?

> And BA was always one of the worst (never doing it automatically).

Again, presumably you mean you had one such experience 20 years ago?

Not, of course to defend BA's unreliable IT.

>
> Restricting yourself to a [European] carrier in your own Alliance isn't
> likely to increase the choice of routes, so I'll stick with the idea
> that most USA-ians will fly with a local carrier.

Not in a era of code-shares. They probably don't even know they've booked
to travel on a foreign airline's plane.

>
>> But US government staff on official trips are supposed to fly on US
>> airlines if possible. I don't know how strictly this is enforced. For
>> example, is it enough to book a US airline flight number, knowing very well
>> that it's actually a code-share with a superior European or Asian airline?
>
> Or even with a worse one.

Ah, I detect the famous Perry dry humour!

According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>Is it different in other countries? Do normal, law-abiding citizens routinely get their fingerprints scanned? It's not
>something I've come across.

In North America if you have a Global Entry or NEXUS card which lets
you use e-gates at US and (for NEXUS) Canadian airport immigration,
they now use fingerprints. NEXUS used to use iris scans but for some
reason they switched. The iris scans worked reasonably well unlike the
UK ones a decade ago.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>> Is it different in other countries? Do normal, law-abiding citizens
>> routinely get their fingerprints scanned? It's not
>> something I've come across.
>
> In North America if you have a Global Entry or NEXUS card which lets
> you use e-gates at US and (for NEXUS) Canadian airport immigration,
> they now use fingerprints. NEXUS used to use iris scans but for some
> reason they switched. The iris scans worked reasonably well unlike the
> UK ones a decade ago.
>

I should have made clearer that I was thinking of routine regular finger
printing of normal, law abusing citizens, other than at borders. I've been
finger printed at several countries' borders, but nowhere else. Roland
seemed to be suggesting that the UK was unusual in not requiring finger
print scans in other circumstances, and I was asking where/when/which other
countries required them.

Of course, millions of us happily give our fingerprints every day to access
our own devices. And, I assume, some workplaces require fingerprint scans
for access.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 10:29:52 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 15/04/2022 15:01, Tweed wrote:
>>> If UK joined Schengen it would put the vendors of cross channel rubber
>>> boats out if business, as Boris desires, but not with the end effect that a
>>> large chunk of the UK population would accept.
>>
>> It might put the rubber boat vendors out of business but wouldn't their
>> customers be able to get to the UK easier?
>>
>>
>>
>
>That’s exactly my point. For whatever reasons, the UK is held in high
>regard by many overseas people and is seen as a desirable place to be.
>
Relying on Schengen doesn't give an absolute right to be in a country.
People can be sent back on the next boat/train/plane if they don't
qualify on grounds of work etc.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 08:26:10 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <uubm5hd6jdfu4iao25nloil06bgtomtfrj@4ax.com>, at 22:28:45 on
>Sat, 16 Apr 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 07:59:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>airline tells
>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines
>>>>>>reject it as
>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>
>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>
>>>>I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>arrival.
>>>
>>>The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>
>>They only take a dim view if the journey is to/from the USA,
>
>Those are the only flights with such checks.
>
>>otherwise either passport can be used. Using different passports to
>>enter/leave can cause bother (legal or practical) in many countries.
>
>Even the characteristically extra-territorial US government can't
>preside over the travelling arrangement of a person between two other
>third countries (unless one is somewhere like Syria, where it would
>cause difficulties when the person later wanted to enter the USA).
>
>Although sometimes they tie themselves in knots - a friend who used to
>be in their military tells me that he always had to travel with two sets
>of clothes in his carry-on, because there were some countries where his
>bosses insisted he MUST wear his uniform when transiting, and others
>where he MUST NOT.
>
With some (Middle East?) countries even children in camo aren't
welcome.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 10:09:05 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 16/04/2022 09:20, Recliner wrote:
>>> The US system seems to know who's due to arrive.
>>
>> Does it link the data so it knows that Fred Bloggs (UK passport) is the
>> same person as Fred Blogg (US passport)?
>>
>
>That's what we don't know. It may not even care: the American Fred Bloggs
>would be welcomed in without problems, even if he wasn't known to be due.
>
The trouble will occur when the UK Fred Bloggs departs the USA with
his USA passport as the UK Fred Bloggs will still be "in" the USA
according to the system as reported more than once in newspapers when
people (more usually Mrs Bloggs married to a USA-only Mr Bloggs IIRC)
have forgotten to use the right passport.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:21:51 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>
>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>
>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>
>>I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial recognition isn’t
>>effective for under 12s.
>>
>>https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>
>Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>"13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>
Age based on where an acceptable level of accuracy is achieved with a
trial of a large number of subjects?

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 10:09:05 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 16/04/2022 09:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>> The US system seems to know who's due to arrive.
>>>
>>> Does it link the data so it knows that Fred Bloggs (UK passport) is the
>>> same person as Fred Blogg (US passport)?
>>>
>>
>> That's what we don't know. It may not even care: the American Fred Bloggs
>> would be welcomed in without problems, even if he wasn't known to be due.
>>
> The trouble will occur when the UK Fred Bloggs departs the USA with
> his USA passport as the UK Fred Bloggs will still be "in" the USA

No, the UK Bloggs never entered the US, so he couldn't overstay. He would
have had to enter on his US passport.

> according to the system as reported more than once in newspapers when
> people (more usually Mrs Bloggs married to a USA-only Mr Bloggs IIRC)
> have forgotten to use the right passport.

Dual nationals, as already discussed, have to enter the US on their US
passport. You don't go through passport control on departure from the US.
In fact, departure gates are not even classed as domestic or international.

The airline scans your passport at check-in, and presumably sends the DHS a
list of which passport holders have departed on each flight. Not being one,
I don't know if they insist that dual passport holders show the same
passport they registered when they booked the flight.

On 17/04/2022 22:16, Charles Ellson wrote:
> Relying on Schengen doesn't give an absolute right to be in a country.
> People can be sent back on the next boat/train/plane if they don't
> qualify on grounds of work etc.

Does not seem to be very effective in France.

On 18/4/22 07:16, Charles Ellson wrote:

>>
> Relying on Schengen doesn't give an absolute right to be in a country.
> People can be sent back on the next boat/train/plane if they don't
> qualify on grounds of work etc.

I've watched Spanish border police remove some one from a cross boarder
train from France as it appears they only had a work permit papers on
them and not their full ID/Passport.

We were delayed about 30 minutes while an argument in multiple languages
ensured at the other end of our coach.
In the end the passenger was escorted off the train and we departed with
them surrounded by half a dozen uniformed border police on the platform.
We assume they were put on the next train back into France.

The Spanish have also been criticised for causing massive traffic jams
on the motorways by insisting on checking EVERYONE who crossed the
boarder from France.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 23:04:23 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 17/04/2022 22:16, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> Relying on Schengen doesn't give an absolute right to be in a country.
>> People can be sent back on the next boat/train/plane if they don't
>> qualify on grounds of work etc.
>
>Does not seem to be very effective in France.
>
It depends if they are noticed and/or if it causes enough trouble to
motivate the authorities. The "camp" at Calais is small relative to
the rest of France.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:50:05 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 10:09:05 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> On 16/04/2022 09:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> The US system seems to know who's due to arrive.
>>>>
>>>> Does it link the data so it knows that Fred Bloggs (UK passport) is the
>>>> same person as Fred Blogg (US passport)?
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's what we don't know. It may not even care: the American Fred Bloggs
>>> would be welcomed in without problems, even if he wasn't known to be due.
>>>
>> The trouble will occur when the UK Fred Bloggs departs the USA with
>> his USA passport as the UK Fred Bloggs will still be "in" the USA
>
>No, the UK Bloggs never entered the US, so he couldn't overstay. He would
>have had to enter on his US passport.
>
If he entered on his UK passport then that starts the clock which
doesn't get stopped if he fails to leave on his UK passport.

>> according to the system as reported more than once in newspapers when
>> people (more usually Mrs Bloggs married to a USA-only Mr Bloggs IIRC)
>> have forgotten to use the right passport.
>
>Dual nationals, as already discussed, have to enter the US on their US
>passport. You don't go through passport control on departure from the US.
>In fact, departure gates are not even classed as domestic or international.
>
That is the requirement. People don't always obey requirements and
using the wrong passport is something that can be done without being
obvious unless the system has them flagged from a previous occurence.

>The airline scans your passport at check-in, and presumably sends the DHS a
>list of which passport holders have departed on each flight. Not being one,
>I don't know if they insist that dual passport holders show the same
>passport they registered when they booked the flight.
>
Dual passport or not, showing a different passport from that
previously advised ought to be fairly obvious to those checking.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:07:22 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 17/04/2022 13:23, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:18:59 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I wonder if fingerprints can be taken by ePassport machines without human
>>>>> supervision? Whenever I've had mine taken (and not just at the US border)
>>>>> there was always a human supervisor telling you what to do, and making sure
>>>>> you did it correctly. The error rate seems very high compared to facial
>>>>> recognition, and it's slow.
>>>>
>>>> It’s very quick on my iPad and iPhone. Enrolling is slow, but recognising
>>>> an enrolled fingerprint is very fast. If you went for a palm print, ie 5
>>>> digits at once, you only have to recognise one to get positive
>>>> identification. I doubt it is any more error prone than facial recognition.
>>>> For the latter there’s well publicised instances of people getting thorough
>>>> eGates by accidentally using their spouse’s passport.
>>>
>>> I wonder how scalable that is? The iDevices have a very powerful CPU
>>> and GPU, and only have to recognise a handful of
>>> prints. And as you say, their initial learning process is slow and
>>> cumbersome. Also, the users are well-trained and
>>> frequent.
>>>
>>> Without all those favourable circumstances, fingerprint scanners at
>>> borders don't work nearly as well. I've encountered
>>> them in multiple countries, and they're never straightforward.
>>
>> It depends what job is to be done. If it's "here's a fingerprint; guess
>> which of the 100 million folk on your database it belongs to", then
>> there will be a lot of "don't know"s (or wrong answers, depending on the
>> confidence threshold). If it's "the person attached to this finger
>> claims to be Anne X. Ample; is that amongst the 1% of names that this
>> print might belong to?", the process becomes quicker and more reliable.
>>
>
>All it needs to do is to match the fingerprint to the one recorded in the
>biometric passport. No database search required. Same process for the
>existing facial recognition. Your passport chip contains a copy of your
>picture. All both methods are trying to do is to check that the passport
>belongs to the person presenting it. The name and passport number are
>enough to interrogate databases.
>
>My supposition is that Apple are better at designing fingerprint readers
>than government contractors.
>
A phone only has to check its own internal database of one or a few
fingerprints. If a border check only compares the arriving fingers
with the arriving passport then that is a dirty great hole in the
security so I doubt if it is only comparing with the passport.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:25:38 +0100,
martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:

>On 17/04/2022 16:09, MB wrote:
>> On 17/04/2022 15:33, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>> The UK fingerprints those arrested not when some become convicted
>>> criminals.
>>
>> And don't they keep the figerprints of those people even though not
>> convicted of anything?
>>
>>
>They do.
>
But they can't keep them forever :-
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/protection-of-freedoms-act-2012-dna-and-fingerprint-provisions/protection-of-freedoms-act-2012-how-dna-and-fingerprint-evidence-is-protected-in-law
[tinyurl.com/2p8dxvxt]

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 10:29:52 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 15/04/2022 15:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>> If UK joined Schengen it would put the vendors of cross channel rubber
>>>> boats out if business, as Boris desires, but not with the end effect that a
>>>> large chunk of the UK population would accept.
>>>
>>> It might put the rubber boat vendors out of business but wouldn't their
>>> customers be able to get to the UK easier?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That’s exactly my point. For whatever reasons, the UK is held in high
>> regard by many overseas people and is seen as a desirable place to be.
>>
> Relying on Schengen doesn't give an absolute right to be in a country.
> People can be sent back on the next boat/train/plane if they don't
> qualify on grounds of work etc.
>

I never stated that Schengen gives a right to entry, but for practical
purposes it makes it very difficult to keep people from other Schengen
countries out, that being the point after all.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:07:22 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>> On 17/04/2022 13:23, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:18:59 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I wonder if fingerprints can be taken by ePassport machines without human
>>>>>> supervision? Whenever I've had mine taken (and not just at the US border)
>>>>>> there was always a human supervisor telling you what to do, and making sure
>>>>>> you did it correctly. The error rate seems very high compared to facial
>>>>>> recognition, and it's slow.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s very quick on my iPad and iPhone. Enrolling is slow, but recognising
>>>>> an enrolled fingerprint is very fast. If you went for a palm print, ie 5
>>>>> digits at once, you only have to recognise one to get positive
>>>>> identification. I doubt it is any more error prone than facial recognition.
>>>>> For the latter there’s well publicised instances of people getting thorough
>>>>> eGates by accidentally using their spouse’s passport.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder how scalable that is? The iDevices have a very powerful CPU
>>>> and GPU, and only have to recognise a handful of
>>>> prints. And as you say, their initial learning process is slow and
>>>> cumbersome. Also, the users are well-trained and
>>>> frequent.
>>>>
>>>> Without all those favourable circumstances, fingerprint scanners at
>>>> borders don't work nearly as well. I've encountered
>>>> them in multiple countries, and they're never straightforward.
>>>
>>> It depends what job is to be done. If it's "here's a fingerprint; guess
>>> which of the 100 million folk on your database it belongs to", then
>>> there will be a lot of "don't know"s (or wrong answers, depending on the
>>> confidence threshold). If it's "the person attached to this finger
>>> claims to be Anne X. Ample; is that amongst the 1% of names that this
>>> print might belong to?", the process becomes quicker and more reliable.
>>>
>>
>> All it needs to do is to match the fingerprint to the one recorded in the
>> biometric passport. No database search required. Same process for the
>> existing facial recognition. Your passport chip contains a copy of your
>> picture. All both methods are trying to do is to check that the passport
>> belongs to the person presenting it. The name and passport number are
>> enough to interrogate databases.
>>
>> My supposition is that Apple are better at designing fingerprint readers
>> than government contractors.
>>
> A phone only has to check its own internal database of one or a few
> fingerprints. If a border check only compares the arriving fingers
> with the arriving passport then that is a dirty great hole in the
> security so I doubt if it is only comparing with the passport.
>

The passport number and name are the things compared with databases. The
fingerprint or photographic identification are just to confirm you are
presenting your passport. Just consider what happens with a manual check.

There’s more tithe photographic checks than you might imagine. I could
never get through the eGates at Birmingham airport. At the reject desk I
once commented on this. The passport chap pressed a few buttons and said
something along the lines of this won’t happen again, and he’s been proved
to be correct.

In message <6qmp5hhist33r5fkbd65ts4ou9m2mluklc@4ax.com>, at 04:35:45 on
Mon, 18 Apr 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:50:05 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 10:09:05 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 16/04/2022 09:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> The US system seems to know who's due to arrive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does it link the data so it knows that Fred Bloggs (UK passport) is the
>>>>> same person as Fred Blogg (US passport)?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's what we don't know. It may not even care: the American Fred Bloggs
>>>> would be welcomed in without problems, even if he wasn't known to be due.
>>>>
>>> The trouble will occur when the UK Fred Bloggs departs the USA with
>>> his USA passport as the UK Fred Bloggs will still be "in" the USA
>>
>>No, the UK Bloggs never entered the US, so he couldn't overstay. He would
>>have had to enter on his US passport.
>>
>If he entered on his UK passport then that starts the clock which
>doesn't get stopped if he fails to leave on his UK passport.

That's how it used to work when the exit-flag was a bit of paper stapled
in the passport, which the airline check-in desk was supposed to grab
and forward, when you left. Sometimes they forgot, which is where the
horror stories arise from.

Now that we have API/PNR/ESTA, electronic manifests and so on, I
seriously doubt many passengers fall through the same cracks.

--
Roland Perry

In message <t3i22d$rsr$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:50:05 on Sun, 17 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 10:09:05 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> On 16/04/2022 09:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> The US system seems to know who's due to arrive.
>>>>
>>>> Does it link the data so it knows that Fred Bloggs (UK passport) is the
>>>> same person as Fred Blogg (US passport)?
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's what we don't know. It may not even care: the American Fred Bloggs
>>> would be welcomed in without problems, even if he wasn't known to be due.
>>>
>> The trouble will occur when the UK Fred Bloggs departs the USA with
>> his USA passport as the UK Fred Bloggs will still be "in" the USA
>
>No, the UK Bloggs never entered the US, so he couldn't overstay. He would
>have had to enter on his US passport.
>
>> according to the system as reported more than once in newspapers when
>> people (more usually Mrs Bloggs married to a USA-only Mr Bloggs IIRC)
>> have forgotten to use the right passport.
>
>Dual nationals, as already discussed, have to enter the US on their US
>passport. You don't go through passport control on departure from the US.

For those with long memories, the original excuse given for
fingerprinting aliens arriving in the USA, was so they could be
registered for operating a kiosk at the departure gate, where
they could flag their departure.

After some limited trials, the idea was dropped. But they still take the
fingerprints on entry...

>In fact, departure gates are not even classed as domestic or international.
>
>The airline scans your passport at check-in, and presumably sends the DHS a
>list of which passport holders have departed on each flight. Not being one,
>I don't know if they insist that dual passport holders show the same
>passport they registered when they booked the flight.

And of course the passenger might miss the flight (either accidentally
or deliberately).
--
Roland Perry

In message <e0co5h9und5a9lls2iboaqmvgoja2f0t1k@4ax.com>, at 16:24:01 on
Sun, 17 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>> All it needs to do is to match the fingerprint to the one recorded in the
>>>> biometric passport. No database search required. Same process for the
>>>> existing facial recognition. Your passport chip contains a copy of your
>>>> picture. All both methods are trying to do is to check that the passport
>>>> belongs to the person presenting it. The name and passport number are
>>>> enough to interrogate databases.
>>>>
>>>> My supposition is that Apple are better at designing fingerprint readers
>>>> than government contractors.
>>>
>>> Or, specifically, it spends more on them (both the sensor and the
>>> computer power to do the processing).
>>>
>>> Of course, Apple uses facial recognition rather than fingerprint scans in
>>> the more professional devices (modern iPad
>>> Pros). Perhaps that's more secure or more reliable?
>>
>>They’ve been desperate to remove anything that creates a bezel. The FaceID
>>via a camera isn’t as reliable or secure. They’ve not cracked putting the
>>fingerprint sensor under the glass display.
>
>You need an OLED display for that, which my inexpensive Android phone
>has. The fingerprint recognition through the
>screen works well with that.
>
>> Some of the newer iPads have the sensor on the side power button, in
>>addition to the option to use FaceID.
>>
>>Give the cost of an eGate I’d imagine adding the compute power of an iPad
>>would be trivial.
>
>Yes, you'd think so, so there must be some other barrier. I speculate
>that it just takes too long and needs too much human supervision to be
>viable.

I suspect the point that's being missed here is that that the phone
fingerprint ID feature is almost certainly using a hash of the
fingerprint (that's definitely how the school-dinners ones worked) and
have a very limited number of patterns to match.

Almost everyone probably registers just a single fingerprint, although
my conventional laptop (which has such a facility, available since 2004,
long before iPhones etc) lets you have at least two.

In any event, the matching of fingerprints on large scale government
systems (eg immigration control) is a solved problem. 20yrs ago when I
got a US driving licence, they were collecting fingerprints from almost
all licence holders (it was a state by state thing) and they said that
if you misplaced your licence you could go to any one of their DMV
centres for a replacement, and they'd be able to identify you from your
fingerprint alone.

The infamous "Green Cards" by then also had fingerprint biometric
*embedded*, although that was more as an anti-counterfeiting measure.
--
Roland Perry

In message <j11p5h5qlreh4i7d3atec0rkf75lnj5alb@4ax.com>, at 22:19:33 on
Sun, 17 Apr 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:

>>Even the characteristically extra-territorial US government can't
>>preside over the travelling arrangement of a person between two other
>>third countries (unless one is somewhere like Syria, where it would
>>cause difficulties when the person later wanted to enter the USA).
>>
>>Although sometimes they tie themselves in knots - a friend who used to
>>be in their military tells me that he always had to travel with two sets
>>of clothes in his carry-on, because there were some countries where his
>>bosses insisted he MUST wear his uniform when transiting, and others
>>where he MUST NOT.
>>
>With some (Middle East?) countries even children in camo aren't
>welcome.

Who said camo? The rule, aiui, is that commissioned officers [I'm
unsighted about the troops] should travel in proper uniform, except in
those countries where identifying themselves in that way is regarded as
a security risk.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t3ht7u$r4u$2@dont-email.me>, at 20:27:42 on Sun, 17 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:

>>> Is it different in other countries? Do normal, law-abiding citizens
>>> routinely get their fingerprints scanned? It's not
>>> something I've come across.
>>
>> In North America if you have a Global Entry or NEXUS card which lets
>> you use e-gates at US and (for NEXUS) Canadian airport immigration,
>> they now use fingerprints. NEXUS used to use iris scans but for some
>> reason they switched. The iris scans worked reasonably well unlike the
>> UK ones a decade ago.
>
>I should have made clearer that I was thinking of routine regular finger
>printing of normal, law abusing citizens, other than at borders. I've been
>finger printed at several countries' borders, but nowhere else. Roland
>seemed to be suggesting that the UK was unusual in not requiring finger
>print scans in other circumstances,

My comment was about the stigma which the British public as a whole
attaches to being fingerprinted by the authorities, aka "treated like a
criminal".

Hence the minor uproar when schools started using them as tokens for
lunch money and borrowing library books.

>and I was asking where/when/which other countries required them.

Some (many?) US driving licences. Not embedded in the licence, but
accompanying the routine application (/renewal). The latter more
frequent in the USA anyway, including when you change address.

Sometimes characterised as "thumb prints", as if that made it more
acceptable. I suppose only criminals get asked for a full set.

>Of course, millions of us happily give our fingerprints every day to access
>our own devices. And, I assume, some workplaces require fingerprint scans
>for access.

Neither of those are storing fingerprints for big government databases.
Indeed, I suspect they are only storing hashes.
--
Roland Perry

In message <0d1p5h1ejr4uu53bjejgldthcv4lsdqaub@4ax.com>, at 22:26:23 on
Sun, 17 Apr 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:21:51 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>
>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>
>>>I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial recognition isn’t
>>>effective for under 12s.
>>>
>>>https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>
>>Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>"13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>
>Age based on where an acceptable level of accuracy is achieved with a
>trial of a large number of subjects?

If you can find such a study, feel free to refer to it. I'm still minded
to think they've picked the age out of the same hat as the existing rule
for UMs.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t3haa7$fiq$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:04:39 on Sun, 17 Apr
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which
>>>>>>>>>>>>passport holders can use the ePassport gates. Those ststs
>>>>>>>>>>>>are for the manual lines, for people who can't (or choose
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing
>>>>>>>>>>> too fast?)?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial
>>>>>>>>> recognition isn’t
>>>>>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not
>>>>>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a
>>>>>>>>technology point of view is false negatives (so simply join the
>>>>>>>>manual queue). I expect a 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option
>>>>>>> of using a
>>>>>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>>>>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Passport biometric is set by International agreement, and needs to be
>>>>>> consistent.
>>>>>
>>>>> The standard allows for fingerprints, for whatever reason we’ve
>>>>>opted out.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04126/SN04
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The EU has set minimum standards for passports which include the use
>>>>> of facial and fingerprint biometrics. The UK is not covered by the
>>>>> regulations. The previous government had intended to introduce
>>>>> “second generation” ePassports in 2012, which would have
>>>>> included fingerprint data, in order to keep pace with the EU
>>>>> regulations. However, the Coalition Government halted these plans
>>>>> and does not intend to extend the use of biometrics in UK passports
>>>>> beyond facial biometrics
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if fingerprints can be taken by ePassport machines without human
>>>> supervision? Whenever I've had mine taken (and not just at the US border)
>>>> there was always a human supervisor telling you what to do, and making sure
>>>> you did it correctly. The error rate seems very high compared to facial
>>>> recognition, and it's slow.
>>>
>>> It’s very quick on my iPad and iPhone. Enrolling is slow, but recognising
>>> an enrolled fingerprint is very fast.
>>
>> And what false positive rate is it specified for? Your phone doesn't
>> have hundreds of thousands of people attempting to log into it, unlike
>> passport gates.
>>
>> It's like the much hated fingerprint recognition technology for paying
>> for school meals. There's only a population of about thousand you need
>> to cope with, not eight billion.
>
>My phone doesn’t learn each day, getting to know me better. It simply
>compares what it senses against the stored token of my fingerprint.

Ah yes, "token", or hash.

And recently I got a new phone, the fingerprint sensor for which is
vastly more sensitive (ie faster, less fussy) than the previous one.

Which leads me to think the previous one wasn't "learning". Which it
could easily do, because it would tell me that I MUST use a PIN after a
reboot, and at the stage it knows who I am and could ask for an update.

>If that token changes it would recognise someone else. Your passport
>would present the token for you, so it doesn’t matter if there’s
>thousands of people using it. The school system doesn’t have the
>pupil presenting the token.

The tokens are stored locally. No real difference (except scale of the
number of comparisons required; from one to a thousand, but not
millions).

>I also expect the school systems use some sort of cheap and nasty
>sensor. I have two laptops with fingerprint sensors and they are
>hopeless in comparison to the Apple sensors.

My laptop's sensor is at least as good as my Android phone.

>The system doesn’t have ti be perfect, the existing camera based systems
>aren’t - given the stories of people being admitted on the passports of
>others.

Much also happens with manual passport checks.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t3goqd$os4$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:06:05 on Sun, 17 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3e34h$bbo$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:43:45 on Sat, 16 Apr
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> US and UK citizens can both use the same UK ePassport machines, so they're
>>>>> in the same (generally short) queue on arrival in the UK.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>><https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/c
>>>>ompany/ab
>>>> out/performance/border-force/2022/Mar22_Immigration_performance.pdf>
>>>
>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports,
>>
>> Oh dear, here we go again. As it happens I was one of the original
>> subscribers to the UK's Iris-scanning gates. Which turned out to be
>> far more wobbly than advertised.
>
>Yes, we know you used to be a frequent flier 20 years ago, but things have
>changed since then.

I gave the example to debunk one of your unbecoming, tedious and
unfounded jibes that I'm some sort of Luddite, whereas I'm a very
early adopter.

As for the Iris gates, they did have an advantage even if dysfunctional.
They rarely had a queue, and if they rejected you it was to the *head*
of the manual queue (not the rear).
--
Roland Perry