In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
><martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>
>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>
>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>
>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>> children.
>>
>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>
>We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>they’ve left?

TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>
>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>
>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>> children.
>>>
>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>
>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>> they’ve left?
>
> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.

I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>
>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>> children.
>>>>
>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>
>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>> they’ve left?
>>
>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>
> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>
>

The ferry ports, to be accurate the ferry operators, have had to start
scanning passports in recent years, so they’ve been acting as unpaid Border
Force staff. I’ve no idea what happens if you appear on the wanted list
though. And of course dual nationals can confuse the system by using
different passports for out than in.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>
>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>>> children.
>>>>>
>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>
>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>> they’ve left?
>>>
>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>
>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>
>>
>
> The ferry ports, to be accurate the ferry operators, have had to start
> scanning passports in recent years, so they’ve been acting as unpaid Border
> Force staff. I’ve no idea what happens if you appear on the wanted list
> though. And of course dual nationals can confuse the system by using
> different passports for out than in.
>
>

I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?

On 15/04/2022 15:38, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t3bum8$m22$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:15:36 on Fri, 15 Apr
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>
>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for
>>>> people
>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>
>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>
>> Couldn’t or wouldn’t? ie error or deliberately programmed to reject? Bit
>> like my Anytime ticket that wouldn’t open the gate line because of an
>> associated rail card.
>
> The gate "handled" the ticket, and decided that it wasn't acceptable. I
> get that all the time with off-peak returns being rejected at Kings
> Cross in the evening rush hour, despite being valid to [may change from
> one fare manual to the next] destinations north of Cambridge.
>
> Similarly, back in the day, I used to have valid anytime return from
> north of the river to London Bridge mainline consistently rejected by
> the barriers there. But it read them first, which was the important thing.

That's a problem when the gate staff don't understand the restrictions
and rely on the gate programming to get it correct.

I used to have a consistent problem at Cardiff Central railway station
which was programmed to reject non break of journey tickets. However
there are a number of retail outlets outside the barrier which you are
allowed to access. This only got resolved when the station manager was
on duty when I was feeling particularly stroppy and explained in
excruciating detail why I was allowed through the barrier with an
advance ticket.

Once I overcome that hurdle I then explained that Cardiff station group
no longer existed and my tickets were being swallowed incorrectly.

Happy both those problems were sorted and have remained so.

On 15/04/2022 17:34, Recliner wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>>
>>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>>> they’ve left?
>>>>
>>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>>
>>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The ferry ports, to be accurate the ferry operators, have had to start
>> scanning passports in recent years, so they’ve been acting as unpaid Border
>> Force staff. I’ve no idea what happens if you appear on the wanted list
>> though. And of course dual nationals can confuse the system by using
>> different passports for out than in.
>>
>>
>
> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>
I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 15/04/2022 17:34, Recliner wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>>>> they’ve left?
>>>>>
>>>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>>>
>>>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The ferry ports, to be accurate the ferry operators, have had to start
>>> scanning passports in recent years, so they’ve been acting as unpaid Border
>>> Force staff. I’ve no idea what happens if you appear on the wanted list
>>> though. And of course dual nationals can confuse the system by using
>>> different passports for out than in.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>
> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>

I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
arrival.

On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 06:09:07 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 06:26:01 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 13/04/2022 22:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Just to provide a counter view to all the doom and gloom in the media,
>>>>>>> we?ve just been to Madeira and back without a hitch. EMR to St Pancras and
>>>>>>> back on time no issues. Thameslink from StP to Gatwick equally problem
>>>>>>> free. Minor security queue leaving Gatwick. Took 20 minutes. EasyJet didn?t
>>>>>>> cancel our flights. Got my first Schengen in and out stamps at Funchal
>>>>>>> airport. On the return no passport queue, electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>> Trains ran without a hitch. Doesn?t make a newspaper or TV story though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How long did you have to wait in the Funchal passport queue? I waited a
>>>>>> full hour in Rome in November, but only about 10 mins at Málaga last month.
>>>>>> No queues at the UK ePassport readers on the return, whose use is not
>>>>>> restricted to UK citizens. EU citizens continue to be welcome to use them.
>>>>>> I'm off to Rome again next month, and hope not to have to wait an hour
>>>>>> again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I had a very long wait for luggage in LHR T3 last month. Maybe staff
>>>>>> shortages in baggage handling?
>>>>>>
>>>>> A Belfast flight left Heathrow without any hold baggage a couple of
>>>>> weeks ago.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, baggage handling seems to be one of several weak spots. Apparently the
>>>> security vetting of the much-needed new recruits is very slow. The airports
>>>> had run down their staff during the period of much reduced demand and
>>>> closed terminals, and they're struggling now that the traffic has suddenly
>>>> ramped back up.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nit sure if it is an Easter holidays effect, but there wasn?t much demand
>>> for our Thameslink train through the core yesterday at around 1730. I was
>>> expecting hoards to get on Blackfriars northwards, but no.
>>>
>> Probably because a load of people had gone home at lunchtime for their
>> Maundy Thursday half day civil service (and historical/ex-CS staff)
>> holiday.
>> <snip>
>>
>
>This was a Wednesday
>
Indeed it was. Maybe just general skiving to make it a longer weekend?

In message <dkmj5hdj72m056e7hgjv3fulrc9a2mn4jo@4ax.com>, at 21:51:51 on
Fri, 15 Apr 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 06:09:07 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
><usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 06:26:01 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/04/2022 22:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>> Just to provide a counter view to all the doom and gloom in the
>>>>>>>>media, we?ve just been to Madeira and back without a hitch. EMR
>>>>>>>>to St Pancras and back on time no issues. Thameslink from StP
>>>>>>>>to Gatwick equally problem free. Minor security queue leaving
>>>>>>>>Gatwick. Took 20 minutes. EasyJet didn?t cancel our flights.
>>>>>>>>Got my first Schengen in and out stamps at Funchal airport. On
>>>>>>>>the return no passport queue, electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>Trains ran without a hitch. Doesn?t make a newspaper or TV story though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How long did you have to wait in the Funchal passport queue? I waited a
>>>>>>> full hour in Rome in November, but only about 10 mins at Málaga
>>>>>>>last month.

>>>>>>> No queues at the UK ePassport readers on the return, whose use
>>>>>>> restricted to UK citizens. EU citizens continue to be welcome
>>>>>>>to use them. I'm off to Rome again next month, and hope not to
>>>>>>>have to wait an hour again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I had a very long wait for luggage in LHR T3 last month. Maybe staff
>>>>>>> shortages in baggage handling?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> A Belfast flight left Heathrow without any hold baggage a couple of
>>>>>> weeks ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, baggage handling seems to be one of several weak spots.
>>>>>Apparently the security vetting of the much-needed new recruits is
>>>>>very slow. The airports had run down their staff during the period
>>>>>of much reduced demand and closed terminals, and they're
>>>>>struggling now that the traffic has suddenly ramped back up.
>>>>
>>>> Nit sure if it is an Easter holidays effect, but there wasn?t much demand
>>>> for our Thameslink train through the core yesterday at around 1730. I was
>>>> expecting hoards to get on Blackfriars northwards, but no.
>>>>
>>> Probably because a load of people had gone home at lunchtime for their
>>> Maundy Thursday half day civil service (and historical/ex-CS staff)
>>> holiday.
>>> <snip>
>>
>>This was a Wednesday
>>
>Indeed it was. Maybe just general skiving to make it a longer weekend?

Why think the worst, when it's not necessary? From the out-of-office
email replies I've been getting the last few days, a lot of people this
year (even if they didn't traditionally do it) having been taking annual
to make a very-long weekend. Separately, several people I know have
clocked up vast amounts of untaken annual leave "because of Covid".

If there's nowhere open/easy to go to, what's the point in taking annual
leave from working at home, to being on holiday at home?
--
Roland Perry

In message <t3cdjp$b1v$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:16 on Fri, 15 Apr
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 15/04/2022 15:38, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t3bum8$m22$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:15:36 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for
>>>>>people
>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>
>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>
>>> Couldn’t or wouldn’t? ie error or deliberately programmed to reject? Bit
>>> like my Anytime ticket that wouldn’t open the gate line because of an
>>> associated rail card.

>> The gate "handled" the ticket, and decided that it wasn't
>>acceptable. I get that all the time with off-peak returns being
>>rejected at Kings Cross in the evening rush hour, despite being valid
>>to [may change from one fare manual to the next] destinations north
>>of Cambridge.

>> Similarly, back in the day, I used to have valid anytime return from
>>north of the river to London Bridge mainline consistently rejected by
>>the barriers there. But it read them first, which was the important
>>thing.
>
>That's a problem when the gate staff don't understand the restrictions
>and rely on the gate programming to get it correct.

In both cases the sheer volume of passengers experiencing the issue, day
in and day out, meant they were familiar with it.

>I used to have a consistent problem at Cardiff Central railway station
>which was programmed to reject non break of journey tickets. However
>there are a number of retail outlets outside the barrier which you are
>allowed to access. This only got resolved when the station manager was
>on duty when I was feeling particularly stroppy and explained in
>excruciating detail why I was allowed through the barrier with an
>advance ticket.

BoJ is a much misunderstood concept, not helped by the industry often
compounding the issue with muddled advice. In practice, what the
rule-makers are trying to address isn't people making a diversion to
on-premises facilities, but using that as an opportunity to stop
short/start long on a discounted ticket. Yes, even a discounted AP
ticket (see the classic example of people hauled up for stopping short
at Southampton Airport on a specially discounted London-Southampton
ticket).

The most blatant (but allowable I think, because there was no
restriction) break I did was an open return from Nottingham to Gatwick,
but I flew back in to Luton and used only the Luton-Nottingham portion
of the return. Because of the fares schemes, throwing away the
Gatwick-Luton portion of the ticket was a lot cheaper than buying two
singles.

>Once I overcome that hurdle I then explained that Cardiff station group
>no longer existed and my tickets were being swallowed incorrectly.
>
>Happy both those problems were sorted and have remained so.

--
Roland Perry

In message <t3c3su$vlc$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:44:30 on Fri, 15 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>
>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>> children.
>>>>
>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>
>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>> they’ve left?
>>
>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>
>I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.

But not necessarily to the immigration department, rather than the
security department.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t3c5ph$eob$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:49 on Fri, 15 Apr
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check
>>>>>>>for people
>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>
>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>>> children.
>>>>>
>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>
>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>> they’ve left?
>>>
>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>
>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>
>The ferry ports, to be accurate the ferry operators, have had to start
>scanning passports in recent years, so they’ve been acting as unpaid Border
>Force staff.

Just like airport security then.

>I’ve no idea what happens if you appear on the wanted list though.

Not sure there's an equivalent to the "no fly list" for ferries. Wanted
for skipping bail, or whatever, is far too sophisticated for these sorts
of checks.

>And of course dual nationals can confuse the system by using different
>passports for out than in.

The USA insists that their dual nationals (which they've allowed longer
than some people imagine) use the USA passport for inbound travel.
Meanwhile simply by the proxy of the length of queues, the UK strongly
encourages use of the UK passport for arrivals.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t3c6q3$mds$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:34:11 on Fri, 15 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check
>>>>>>>>for people
>>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>>
>>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>>> they’ve left?
>>>>
>>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>>
>>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>
>> The ferry ports, to be accurate the ferry operators, have had to start
>> scanning passports in recent years, so they’ve been acting as unpaid Border
>> Force staff. I’ve no idea what happens if you appear on the wanted list
>> though. And of course dual nationals can confuse the system by using
>> different passports for out than in.
>
>I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
>the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
>they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?

A passport is intended as a bearer-bond, and free standing, not linked
to expected arrivals. Are the IT systems even sophisticated enough to
attempt to correlate the two?
--
Roland Perry

In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>
>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>
>I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>arrival.

The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3c5ph$eob$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:49 on Fri, 15 Apr
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check
>>>>>>>> for people
>>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>>
>>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>>> they’ve left?
>>>>
>>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>>
>>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>
>> The ferry ports, to be accurate the ferry operators, have had to start
>> scanning passports in recent years, so they’ve been acting as unpaid Border
>> Force staff.
>
> Just like airport security then.
>
>> I’ve no idea what happens if you appear on the wanted list though.
>
> Not sure there's an equivalent to the "no fly list" for ferries. Wanted
> for skipping bail, or whatever, is far too sophisticated for these sorts
> of checks.
>
>> And of course dual nationals can confuse the system by using different
>> passports for out than in.
>
> The USA insists that their dual nationals (which they've allowed longer
> than some people imagine) use the USA passport for inbound travel.

Which would certainly make good sense for the passport holders. They might,
of course, have registered their other passport with the airline.

> Meanwhile simply by the proxy of the length of queues, the UK strongly
> encourages use of the UK passport for arrivals.

US and UK citizens can both use the same UK ePassport machines, so they're
in the same (generally short) queue on arrival in the UK.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3c6q3$mds$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:34:11 on Fri, 15 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check
>>>>>>>>> for people
>>>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>>>> they’ve left?
>>>>>
>>>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>>>
>>>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>>
>>> The ferry ports, to be accurate the ferry operators, have had to start
>>> scanning passports in recent years, so they’ve been acting as unpaid Border
>>> Force staff. I’ve no idea what happens if you appear on the wanted list
>>> though. And of course dual nationals can confuse the system by using
>>> different passports for out than in.
>>
>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>
> A passport is intended as a bearer-bond, and free standing, not linked
> to expected arrivals. Are the IT systems even sophisticated enough to
> attempt to correlate the two?

The US system seems to know who's due to arrive.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>
>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>
>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>> arrival.
>
> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.

There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
entry into the US.

On 15/04/2022 15:01, Tweed wrote:
> If UK joined Schengen it would put the vendors of cross channel rubber
> boats out if business, as Boris desires, but not with the end effect that a
> large chunk of the UK population would accept.

Well since they seem to be getting here in large numbers anyway, the main effect would be that fewer would drown and that some border officials could be redeployed to do something more useful. That seems to me to be a net gain.

--
Clive Page

In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>airline tells
>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines
>>>>>reject it as
>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>
>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>
>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>> arrival.
>>
>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>
>There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>entry into the US.

Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
sticker on the back of the passport.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t3du89$bfj$3@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3c6q3$mds$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:34:11 on Fri, 15 Apr
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who
>>>>>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old
>>>>>>>>>>>maroon passport but they didn't work for her teenage
>>>>>>>>>>>daughters with new blue ones. (I couldn't understand why her
>>>>>>>>>>>daughters had problems with being asked where they had come
>>>>>>>>>>>from and where they were going by officials before they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a
>>>>>>>>>> for people smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because
>>>>>>>>two particular children had to be kept apart I usually only
>>>>>>>>took most of the children.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control
>>>>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been
>>>>>>>>taking them out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM
>>>>>>>>or arranged marriages. The return was a different matter and we
>>>>>>>>had to make sure that the parents were behind me in the car
>>>>>>>>queue as control was always concerned that I might be
>>>>>>>>trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>>>>> they’ve left?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>>>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>>>
>>>> The ferry ports, to be accurate the ferry operators, have had to
>>>>start scanning passports in recent years, so they’ve been acting
>>>>as unpaid Border Force staff. I’ve no idea what happens if you
>>>>appear on the wanted list though. And of course dual nationals can
>>>>confuse the system by using different passports for out than in.
>>>
>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>
>> A passport is intended as a bearer-bond, and free standing, not linked
>> to expected arrivals. Are the IT systems even sophisticated enough to
>> attempt to correlate the two?
>
>The US system seems to know who's due to arrive.

There's at least four layers involved there: ESTA, international no-fly
lists, airplane manifests, and the pre-checkin screening. I've also seen
them more than once doing an extra (non-airline) check at the UK
boarding gates.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t3dt0j$3gc$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:59:13 on Sat, 16 Apr
2022, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> Wrote in message:

>> A passport is intended as a bearer-bond, and free standing, not
>>linked to expected arrivals.
>
>I fear that principle may be a thing of the past unfortunately -
> we are increasingly moving towards a world where your passport is
> just a means for sharing a reference number into a
> database.

That's a slightly different thing to said database having a list of
expected arrivals, and presumably some associated deliberation over
people arriving who weren't expected, and people who were expected
evaporating in transit.

>> Are the IT systems even sophisticated enough to attempt to correlate the two?
>
>In the UK? Highly unlikely given the general laissez fair attitude
> to border control, and general success rate of any UK government
> IT projects - it would be pointless anyway since the data isn't
> even provided by all carriers and all ports, but even when it is,
> it is not as far as I know real time and may even be provided
> retrospectively.
>
>In contrast I'd not be surprised if the US did - if I recall
> correctly they have pre-departure deadlines for the information
> to have been submitted by the airline and approved, and without
> that approval the flight is not allowed to take-off. (I have
> vague memories of ESTA system crashes in the past causing chaos
> as flights were grounded because they couldn't get approval.)

Indeed, and soon there's going to be...

>Furthermore the EU's new Electronic Entry/Exit System combined
> with ETIAS will - entry will be conditional on both the EES
> system validating you've not overstayed, and absent a visa, on a
> valid ETIAS record for that identity document being
> found.
>
>This will have the negative that you need to pre-register
> (including details of the passport you intend to use), at a cost,
> before travel. On the upside, there will be no need for passport
> stamps any more and thus the possibility to enable eGates for
> non-EU citizens/residents.

Actually, passport stamps are still useful when trying to answer
questions about travel that might arise when making visa applications
to third countries.

iirc Russia (although a bit off the menu at the moment) wants a list,
and of course the USA suddenly took a dislike to anyone who had been to
Syria since some date about five years in the past they pulled out of a
hat.

I know about the latter because an inveterate tourist friend of mine had
been on a package tour to Syria (looking at ancient monuments) before
their war, and with that substantial hindsight only escaped this
deadline by a matter of weeks.
--
Roland Perry

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 15/04/2022 15:01, Tweed wrote:
>> If UK joined Schengen it would put the vendors of cross channel rubber
>> boats out if business, as Boris desires, but not with the end effect that a
>> large chunk of the UK population would accept.
>
> Well since they seem to be getting here in large numbers anyway, the main
> effect would be that fewer would drown and that some border officials
> could be redeployed to do something more useful. That seems to me to be a net gain.
>

You might be several orders of magnitude out in your estimation of those
that would come over.

In message <t3du88$bfj$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:24 on Sat, 16 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3c5ph$eob$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:49 on Fri, 15 Apr
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who
>>>>>>>>>>came throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old
>>>>>>>>>>maroon passport but they didn't work for her teenage
>>>>>>>>>>daughters with new blue ones. (I couldn't understand why her
>>>>>>>>>>daughters had problems with being asked where they had come
>>>>>>>>>>from and where they were going by officials before they were
>>>>>>>>>>allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check
>>>>>>>>> for people
>>>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>>>> they’ve left?
>>>>>
>>>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>>>
>>>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>>
>>> The ferry ports, to be accurate the ferry operators, have had to
>>>start scanning passports in recent years, so they’ve been acting as
>>>unpaid Border Force staff.
>>
>> Just like airport security then.
>>
>>> I’ve no idea what happens if you appear on the wanted list though.
>>
>> Not sure there's an equivalent to the "no fly list" for ferries. Wanted
>> for skipping bail, or whatever, is far too sophisticated for these sorts
>> of checks.
>>
>>> And of course dual nationals can confuse the system by using different
>>> passports for out than in.
>>
>> The USA insists that their dual nationals (which they've allowed longer
>> than some people imagine) use the USA passport for inbound travel.
>
>Which would certainly make good sense for the passport holders. They might,
>of course, have registered their other passport with the airline.

Even if they did that, on arrival in the USA the temptation to use the
shorter queues (and lack of fingerprinting) for Citizens would give the
game away. Even if using the non-citizen queues, the immigration
officials will be looking up their citizenship too.

>> Meanwhile simply by the proxy of the length of queues, the UK strongly
>> encourages use of the UK passport for arrivals.
>
>US and UK citizens can both use the same UK ePassport machines, so they're
>in the same (generally short) queue on arrival in the UK.

<https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/company/ab
out/performance/border-force/2022/Mar22_Immigration_performance.pdf>

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>> airline tells
>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines
>>>>>> reject it as
>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>
>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>> arrival.
>>>
>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>
>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>> entry into the US.
>
> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
> sticker on the back of the passport.

No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
the US.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3du89$bfj$3@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3c6q3$mds$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:34:11 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who
>>>>>>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old
>>>>>>>>>>>> maroon passport but they didn't work for her teenage
>>>>>>>>>>>> daughters with new blue ones. (I couldn't understand why her
>>>>>>>>>>>> daughters had problems with being asked where they had come
>>>>>>>>>>>> from and where they were going by officials before they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a
>>>>>>>>>>> for people smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because
>>>>>>>>> two particular children had to be kept apart I usually only
>>>>>>>>> took most of the children.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control
>>>>>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been
>>>>>>>>> taking them out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM
>>>>>>>>> or arranged marriages. The return was a different matter and we
>>>>>>>>> had to make sure that the parents were behind me in the car
>>>>>>>>> queue as control was always concerned that I might be
>>>>>>>>> trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this lack of
>>>>>>>>> diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>>>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>>>>>> they’ve left?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>>>>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>>>>
>>>>> The ferry ports, to be accurate the ferry operators, have had to
>>>>> start scanning passports in recent years, so they’ve been acting
>>>>> as unpaid Border Force staff. I’ve no idea what happens if you
>>>>> appear on the wanted list though. And of course dual nationals can
>>>>> confuse the system by using different passports for out than in.
>>>>
>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>
>>> A passport is intended as a bearer-bond, and free standing, not linked
>>> to expected arrivals. Are the IT systems even sophisticated enough to
>>> attempt to correlate the two?
>>
>> The US system seems to know who's due to arrive.
>
> There's at least four layers involved there: ESTA, international no-fly
> lists, airplane manifests, and the pre-checkin screening. I've also seen
> them more than once doing an extra (non-airline) check at the UK
> boarding gates.

Yes, secondary security screening at the gate before US flights is not
uncommon. It's supposedly random, but probably is not.