On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 15:19:39 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <ts89u9$1efhh$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:49:45 on Sat, 11 Feb
>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 14:37:55 +0000
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>
>>>>> Later...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>
>>>>Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>>equivalent for LU?
>>>
>>>Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow is
>>>becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we train-savvy
>>>Brits, what hope do tourists have?
>>
>>Do LU and the Liz line have ticket offices down there or are newcomers
>>expected to figure out the ticket machines with a queue of 20 people behind
>>them and 1 lonely "passenger service assistant" hiding in the broom cupboard?
>
>The ticketing facility at T5 is a number of TVMs clustered on the
>concourse near the escalators/lifts down to the platforms.

I bet thats fun after a load of A380s have landed. TfLs ticket machines arn't
exactly intuitive. They should just put up big signs saying you can use
contactless bank cards.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 15:18:21 +0000
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ts89vl$1eg30$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:50:29 on Sat, 11 Feb
>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 14:42:18 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 11/02/2023 14:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir.  (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Later...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>>>> equivalent for LU?
>>>>>
>>>>> Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow is
>>>>> becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we train-savvy
>>>>> Brits, what hope do tourists have?
>>>>
>>>> Amazingly, millions every year seem to cope.
>>>
>>> I wonder how many millions don't even bother and get a taxi.
>>
>> From one terminal to another? Very few I think.
>
> Oh ok, I thought you were talking about into London. So unlike Gatwick there's
> no free transfer between terminals now?

There is, as this thread has repeatedly mentioned.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ts89u9$1efhh$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:49:45 on Sat, 11 Feb
> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 14:37:55 +0000
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>
>>>>> Later...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>
>>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>> equivalent for LU?
>>>
>>> Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow is
>>> becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we train-savvy
>>> Brits, what hope do tourists have?
>>
>> Do LU and the Liz line have ticket offices down there or are newcomers
>> expected to figure out the ticket machines with a queue of 20 people behind
>> them and 1 lonely "passenger service assistant" hiding in the broom cupboard?
>
> The ticketing facility at T5 is a number of TVMs clustered on the
> concourse near the escalators/lifts down to the platforms.

Yes, with several helpful attendants keen to help.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ts89ga$1ee30$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:18 on Sat, 11 Feb
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 11/02/2023 14:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here
>>>>> somewhere
>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir.  (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>
>>>>> Later...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>
>>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>> equivalent for LU?
>
>>> Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow
>>> is becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we
>>> train-savvy Brits, what hope do tourists have?
>>
>> Amazingly, millions every year seem to cope.
>
> Only because they are willing to hand a blank queue to the Mayor.
>
> Or perhaps get to the LU gates at one Heathrow terminal to find that the
> advice they read online about a free transfer is out of date.

It's not.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <v15fuhhfohdh4kvq7gr38g0gfiujcnklo2@4ax.com>, at 13:13:24 on
> Sat, 11 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>>> AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
>>>>> a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>>>> kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>>>>
>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>
>>>> Later...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>> equivalent for LU?
>>
>> No, you can only open the LU station gates with an Oyster/cc card.
>
> Is that a Khan tourist-tax measure

Huh? It's free, as this thread has made clear.

(viz: scrapping much of the free
> transport around the airport area, on his metals/tarmac)?

That was a HAL economy measure brought in during Covid.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 15:19:39 +0000
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ts89u9$1efhh$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:49:45 on Sat, 11 Feb
>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 14:37:55 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Later...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>>> equivalent for LU?
>>>>
>>>> Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow is
>>>> becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we train-savvy
>>>> Brits, what hope do tourists have?
>>>
>>> Do LU and the Liz line have ticket offices down there or are newcomers
>>> expected to figure out the ticket machines with a queue of 20 people behind
>>> them and 1 lonely "passenger service assistant" hiding in the broom cupboard?
>>
>> The ticketing facility at T5 is a number of TVMs clustered on the
>> concourse near the escalators/lifts down to the platforms.
>
> I bet thats fun after a load of A380s have landed.

No danger of that!

> TfLs ticket machines arn't
> exactly intuitive. They should just put up big signs saying you can use
> contactless bank cards.

I'm sure there are signs to that effect.

In message <ts8dd7$1er8a$8@dont-email.me>, at 15:48:55 on Sat, 11 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <v15fuhhfohdh4kvq7gr38g0gfiujcnklo2@4ax.com>, at 13:13:24 on
>> Sat, 11 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>> AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you
>>>>>>don't have
>>>>>> a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>>>>> kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>>>>>
>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>
>>>>> Later...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>> equivalent for LU?
>>>
>>> No, you can only open the LU station gates with an Oyster/cc card.

Paper tickets no longer accepted?

>> Is that a Khan tourist-tax measure
>
>Huh? It's free, as this thread has made clear.

Ah, so it's free as in no-charge to the Oyster or CCs that the visiting
transit passenger manages to conjure out of thin air.

>>(viz: scrapping much of the free transport around the airport area,
>>on his metals/tarmac)?
>
>That was a HAL economy measure brought in during Covid.

I'm sure there was a reduction in the service, before Covid. Someone I
know stayed in one of the perimeter hotels and what would previously
have been a free bus ride to T123, wasn't any more.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ts8cna$1ep0c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:14 on Sat, 11 Feb
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 15:18:21 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <ts89vl$1eg30$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:50:29 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 14:42:18 +0000
>>>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>On 11/02/2023 14:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir.  (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Later...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>>>> equivalent for LU?
>>>>>
>>>>> Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow is
>>>>> becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we train-savvy
>>>>> Brits, what hope do tourists have?
>>>>
>>>>Amazingly, millions every year seem to cope.
>>>
>>>I wonder how many millions don't even bother and get a taxi.
>>
>> From one terminal to another? Very few I think.
>
>Oh ok, I thought you were talking about into London. So unlike Gatwick there's
>no free transfer between terminals now?

There are free trains, but we've also been discussing free buses around
the area, and what credentials a person needs to use the free trains.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ts8dd7$1er8a$8@dont-email.me>, at 15:48:55 on Sat, 11 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <v15fuhhfohdh4kvq7gr38g0gfiujcnklo2@4ax.com>, at 13:13:24 on
>>> Sat, 11 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you
>>>>>>> don't have
>>>>>>> a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>>>>>> kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Later...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>>> equivalent for LU?
>>>>
>>>> No, you can only open the LU station gates with an Oyster/cc card.
>
> Paper tickets no longer accepted?
>
>>> Is that a Khan tourist-tax measure
>>
>> Huh? It's free, as this thread has made clear.
>
> Ah, so it's free as in no-charge to the Oyster or CCs that the visiting
> transit passenger manages to conjure out of thin air.
>

https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/transport/Heathrow-free-travel-map.pdf

*Oyster or contactless required to activate ticket gates at stations.
Alternatively, if using the trains between terminals, you can collect a
free train transfer ticket at train stations.
No Oyster, contactless or ticket is required for free travel on the H30
bus.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>>>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central
>>>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>>>>>>>>>> Line, (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They
>>>>>>>>>> seem to have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish
>>>>>>>>>> (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from
>>>>>>>>>> (3) as these use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different
>>>>>>>>>> at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train? And what
>>>>>>>>>> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do
>>>>>>>>>> they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund the
>>>>>>>> difference
>>>>>>>> at touch-out?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
>>>>>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
>>>>>>> have that much credit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>>>
>>>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>>>
>>> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
>>> charges will apply?
>>>
>>
>> Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
>> touch out".
>>
>
> My understanding is that, with cc cards, only one charge is made, at the
> end of the day. It covers all journeys made that day, and tge daiky fare
> cap is applied if necessary. If you have unresolved journeys, or don't
> touch out in time, you get charged a maximum fare for that journey, which
> isn't covered by the daily cap, of:
>
> Up to £8.90 in Zones 1-9 or
> up to £26.00 beyond Zone 9, including on the Heathrow Express
>
>

Doesn't it make a token charge at the beginning of the first journey, to
check that the card is active? Then that pending charge eventually gets
changed into to correct, capped, fare? I thought we discussed this fairly
recently?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ts7lij$1cec7$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:02:11 on Sat, 11 Feb
> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>>>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between
>>>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube +
>>>>>>>>>> Elizabeth Line, (3) top price for anything involving the
>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow Express. They seem to have two separate gate-lines
>>>>>>>>>> at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't
>>>>>>>>>> understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the
>>>>>>>>>> same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>>>>>>> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless
>>>>>>>>>> card - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund the
>>>>>>>> difference at touch-out?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
>>>>>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
>>>>>>> have that much credit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>>>
>>>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>>>
>>> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
>>> charges will apply?
>>
>> Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
>> touch out".
>
> Depends what you mean by "a charge", it's probably just a refundable
> deposit.

Oyster certainly makes a charge when you touch in for the first time that
day, as in, it deducts money from your available credit (which then
triggers auto top up if appropriate, so it really is a reduction in your
available credit, not some notional 'something' which will get applied
later).

Some of it will get refunded when you touch out, if appropriate. There's no
way without involving a staff member, to get it all refunded.

Subsequent journeys the same day might begin with a lesser amount being
charged, until you've reached the daily cap, at which point zero is charged
when you touch in for an appropriate journey. At least that's how I
remember it from days when I've made multiple journeys.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ts7s77$1d2dq$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:55:35 on Sat, 11 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow,
>>>>>>>>>>> having not used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between
>>>>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube
>>>>>>>>>>> + Elizabeth Line, (3) top price for anything involving the
>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow Express. They seem to have two separate gate-lines
>>>>>>>>>>> at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the
>>>>>>>>>>> different at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>>>>>>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or
>>>>>>>>>>> Contactless card - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund
>>>>>>>>> difference at touch-out?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
>>>>>>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
>>>>>>>> have that much credit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>>>>
>>>> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
>>>> charges will apply?
>>>
>>> Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
>>> touch out".
>>
>> My understanding is that, with cc cards, only one charge is made, at the
>> end of the day. It covers all journeys made that day, and tge daiky fare
>> cap is applied if necessary. If you have unresolved journeys, or don't
>> touch out in time, you get charged a maximum fare for that journey,
>
> The system isn't psychic. They don't know what "that journey" was, if
> unresolved. So they just pluck a figure out of thin air in the hope
> it'll be large enough to teach people to touch-out next time.
>

Surely the charge for an unresolved journey is clearly stated on the TfL
website somewhere?

Oh look:
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/pay-as-you-go/touching-in-and-out#on-this-page-2>

> Although getting information about how, why and when you were charged
> seems to get more difficult all the time. A bi like PAYG SIMs, which
> won't give you an itemised statement *even if you seek one*, let alone
> as a routine thing.
>

If your card is registered, you can easily log in and see an itemised list.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 11:25:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <ts7s77$1d2dq$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:55:35 on Sat, 11 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>>>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow,
>>>>>>>>>>>> having not used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between
>>>>>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube
>>>>>>>>>>>> + Elizabeth Line, (3) top price for anything involving the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow Express. They seem to have two separate gate-lines
>>>>>>>>>>>> at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the
>>>>>>>>>>>> different at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>>>>>>>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or
>>>>>>>>>>>> Contactless card - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>>>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund
>>>>>>>>>> difference at touch-out?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
>>>>>>>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
>>>>>>>>> have that much credit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>>>>>
>>>>> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
>>>>> charges will apply?
>>>>
>>>> Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
>>>> touch out".
>>>
>>> My understanding is that, with cc cards, only one charge is made, at the
>>> end of the day. It covers all journeys made that day, and tge daiky fare
>>> cap is applied if necessary. If you have unresolved journeys, or don't
>>> touch out in time, you get charged a maximum fare for that journey,
>>
>> The system isn't psychic. They don't know what "that journey" was, if
>> unresolved. So they just pluck a figure out of thin air in the hope
>> it'll be large enough to teach people to touch-out next time.
>
> It does mean that some people could game the system, touching in in a
> Z1-9 station, and exiting via an open station
> outside Z9. The 'maximum' fare they're charged could be less than the
> actual fare for that journey.
>

Beware though, the Maximum Fare charged in that situation doesn't count
towards any caps. So you might end up paying twice.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 13:11:28 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts5h9d$128sb$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:45 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>>>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2
>>>>> or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these
>>>>> use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, HEx have dedicated platform and dedicated gateline at Paddington which
>>>> charges the correct fare. If any other trains use those platforms,
>>>> passengers have to be directed across the the appropriate, non-HEx gateline
>>>> nearby. I'm not sure what happens in the unlikely event of HEx using other
>>>> platforms, particularly if they're not suitable for guiding passengers
>>>> to/from the expensive ticket barriers - perhaps people get a cheap ride in
>>>> that situation.
>>>>
>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>
>>>> I believe there is usually a ticket-checker on board, though I don't know
>>>> whether there's *always* one.
>>>>
>>>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card
>>>>> - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>
>>>> Touching in and out will charge you the correct fare without any
>>>> intervention. Any ticket checks on board will be in addition to that, and
>>>> won't affect the fare charged.
>>>>
>>>>> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's
>>>>> to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
>>>>> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
>>>>> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
>>>>> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one only use
>>>>> the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which
>>>>> gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.
>>>>
>>>> AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
>>>> a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>>> kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>>>
>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>
>>> Later...
>>>
>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>
>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>
>>
>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>> equivalent for LU?
>
> No, you can only open the LU station gates with an Oyster/cc card.
>

So if you don't have one, you have to use HEx/EL? Interesting.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 13:11:28 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ts5h9d$128sb$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:45 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>>>>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2
>>>>>> or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these
>>>>>> use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, HEx have dedicated platform and dedicated gateline at Paddington which
>>>>> charges the correct fare. If any other trains use those platforms,
>>>>> passengers have to be directed across the the appropriate, non-HEx gateline
>>>>> nearby. I'm not sure what happens in the unlikely event of HEx using other
>>>>> platforms, particularly if they're not suitable for guiding passengers
>>>>> to/from the expensive ticket barriers - perhaps people get a cheap ride in
>>>>> that situation.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe there is usually a ticket-checker on board, though I don't know
>>>>> whether there's *always* one.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card
>>>>>> - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>>
>>>>> Touching in and out will charge you the correct fare without any
>>>>> intervention. Any ticket checks on board will be in addition to that, and
>>>>> won't affect the fare charged.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's
>>>>>> to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
>>>>>> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
>>>>>> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
>>>>>> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one only use
>>>>>> the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which
>>>>>> gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.
>>>>>
>>>>> AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
>>>>> a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>>>> kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>>>>
>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>
>>>> Later...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>> equivalent for LU?
>>
>> No, you can only open the LU station gates with an Oyster/cc card.
>>
>
> So if you don't have one, you have to use HEx/EL? Interesting.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>

Paper tickets open LU gates, I’ve used one.

On 10/02/2023 10:51, Clive Page wrote:
> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not used it much recently.
>
> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line, (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express.  They seem to have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.  Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?  And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do they just charge an excess?
>
> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free.  So what's to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free, then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier?  Or can one only use the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which gets charged and later refunded?  It's all a bit baffling.
>

To summarise: I think the answer is that at the Heathrow terminal I've passed through recently and probably at all of them there is a separate gateline for the Piccadilly Line and for the Liz/HEX trains. Then when reaching Paddington there is normally a separate platform and gateline for the HEX, so that anyone using it with an Oyster card expecting to pay a Liz line fare will get a surprise. And although there are barrier-less transfers from Liz line to Underground at many stations, anyone taking the Liz line to/from Heathrow will get an appropriate charge as they will have used a Liz/HEX barrier at Heathrow and not an underground gateline.

There is a similar situation in Paris where there are different fares to La Defense on the Metro and the RER, but separate gatelines at La Defense. Which I got caught by once some years ago, not realising that RER was dearer. I wonder how many innocent tourists get caught paying more than they expected because it's all so complicated?

--
Clive Page

According to Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com>:
>Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>> On 10/02/2023 15:09, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Are there separate barrier lines at Heathrow?
>>>
>> No. At LHR T5 at least there is a common barrier line for HEX and Eliz
>> line as they use the same platforms. Don't know about the other stations there.
>>
>
>I meant for NR and LU.

The LU and NR stations are separate at all three Heathrow stations.

At T4 and T5 they are right next to each other, at T23 they're farther
apart connected by the subway.

The T5 stations are considered one station but I believe there are
separate gates. I haven't been there in quite a while.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 13:11:28 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts5h9d$128sb$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:45 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>>>>>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>>>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>>>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2
>>>>>>> or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these
>>>>>>> use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, HEx have dedicated platform and dedicated gateline at Paddington which
>>>>>> charges the correct fare. If any other trains use those platforms,
>>>>>> passengers have to be directed across the the appropriate, non-HEx gateline
>>>>>> nearby. I'm not sure what happens in the unlikely event of HEx using other
>>>>>> platforms, particularly if they're not suitable for guiding passengers
>>>>>> to/from the expensive ticket barriers - perhaps people get a cheap ride in
>>>>>> that situation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe there is usually a ticket-checker on board, though I don't know
>>>>>> whether there's *always* one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card
>>>>>>> - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Touching in and out will charge you the correct fare without any
>>>>>> intervention. Any ticket checks on board will be in addition to that, and
>>>>>> won't affect the fare charged.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's
>>>>>>> to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
>>>>>>> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
>>>>>>> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
>>>>>>> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one only use
>>>>>>> the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which
>>>>>>> gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
>>>>>> a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>>>>> kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>>>>>
>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>
>>>>> Later...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>> equivalent for LU?
>>>
>>> No, you can only open the LU station gates with an Oyster/cc card.
>>>
>>
>> So if you don't have one, you have to use HEx/EL? Interesting.
>>
>
> Paper tickets open LU gates, I’ve used one.
>

But can you get a free one, to travel between the various Heathrow stations
and Hatton Cross?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> According to Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com>:
>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>> On 10/02/2023 15:09, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Are there separate barrier lines at Heathrow?
>>>>
>>> No. At LHR T5 at least there is a common barrier line for HEX and Eliz
>>> line as they use the same platforms. Don't know about the other stations there.
>>>
>>
>> I meant for NR and LU.
>
> The LU and NR stations are separate at all three Heathrow stations.
>
> At T4 and T5 they are right next to each other, at T23 they're farther
> apart connected by the subway.
>
> The T5 stations are considered one station but I believe there are
> separate gates. I haven't been there in quite a while.
>

They are physically separate stations all the way up. They have different
lifts and escalators from the terminal above.

On 11 Feb 2023 at 1:20:28 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

> In message <ts7lij$1cec7$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:02:11 on Sat, 11 Feb
> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>>>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between
>>>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube +
>>>>>>>>>> Elizabeth Line, (3) top price for anything involving the
>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow Express. They seem to have two separate gate-lines
>>>>>>>>>> at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't
>>>>>>>>>> understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the
>>>>>>>>>> same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>>>>>>> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless
>>>>>>>>>> card - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund the
>>>>>>>> difference at touch-out?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
>>>>>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
>>>>>>> have that much credit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>>>
>>>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>>>
>>> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
>>> charges will apply?
>>
>> Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
>> touch out".
>
> Depends what you mean by "a charge", it's probably just a refundable
> deposit.

Referring back to the previous discussion on how split card auth/settle works,
the logical thing to do would be to take an authorisation at first touch in,
for the maximum you expect to be able to charge, but not to settle it at that
point. Then at end of day send the actual amount as settlement (there's no
rule that says you have to settle the amount authorised - you can send a
settlement for more or less, all that auth tells you is the maximum amount
that is guaranteed not to be declined at settlement.)

For most banks, with this process you'd only see a single actual transaction
for the correct amount at end of day. But if your bank's online banking is
real-time (uncommon in the past, much more common these days) until the
settlement you might well see the authorisation appear as a 'pending' payment
or else see an increase in the difference between what shows as "balance" and
"available to spend".

Note that I'm not claiming this is what they *do* do. Just that it would be a
sensible thing they *could* do.

In message <ts8nb9$1fume$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:38:33 on Sat, 11 Feb
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ts7s77$1d2dq$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:55:35 on Sat, 11 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow,
>>>>>>>>>>>> having not used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between
>>>>>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube
>>>>>>>>>>>> + Elizabeth Line, (3) top price for anything involving the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow Express. They seem to have two separate gate-lines
>>>>>>>>>>>> at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the
>>>>>>>>>>>> different at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>>>>>>>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or
>>>>>>>>>>>> Contactless card - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund
>>>>>>>>>> difference at touch-out?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the
>>>>>>>>>moment to
>>>>>>>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not
>>>>>>>>>everyone will
>>>>>>>>> have that much credit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>>>>>
>>>>> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
>>>>> charges will apply?
>>>>
>>>> Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
>>>> touch out".
>>>
>>> My understanding is that, with cc cards, only one charge is made, at the
>>> end of the day. It covers all journeys made that day, and tge daiky fare
>>> cap is applied if necessary. If you have unresolved journeys, or don't
>>> touch out in time, you get charged a maximum fare for that journey,
>>
>> The system isn't psychic. They don't know what "that journey" was, if
>> unresolved. So they just pluck a figure out of thin air in the hope
>> it'll be large enough to teach people to touch-out next time.
>
>Surely the charge for an unresolved journey is clearly stated on the TfL
>website somewhere?
>
>Oh look:
><https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster
>/pay-as-you-go/touching-in-and-out#on-this-page-2>

I'm baffled as to why you suppose anyone suggested the size of the
charge was a secret. Four clicks inside a website isn't the *most*
accessible place though.

>> Although getting information about how, why and when you were charged
>>seems to get more difficult all the time. A bit like PAYG SIMs, which
>>won't give you an itemised statement *even if you seek one*, let alone
>>as a routine thing.
>
>If your card is registered, you can easily log in and see an itemised list.

My Oyster is registered, but I've not used it for ages. (And they throw
away all history after 8 weeks).

Looking at my account just now it seems I have *two* Oysters registered,
which is odd, as I only have one to hand. The "other" has £12 on it, so
I must try to release that. Report it as lost, perhaps?

And two accounts for different contactless cards, which have expired (as
they do).

I'll try to clean it all up later using the app (Just this once I'll
lift my moratorium on even-more-apps). And look for info there on the
unresolved journey charge.

And noted the lies on the website; because a CCC isn't the cheapest way
to pay for Single Tickets, because you can't load Railcards.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ts8nb8$1fume$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:38:32 on Sat, 11 Feb
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ts7lij$1cec7$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:02:11 on Sat, 11 Feb
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between
>>>>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube +
>>>>>>>>>>> Elizabeth Line, (3) top price for anything involving the
>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow Express. They seem to have two separate gate-lines
>>>>>>>>>>> at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the
>>>>>>>>>>> same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>>>>>>>> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless
>>>>>>>>>>> card - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund the
>>>>>>>>> difference at touch-out?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the
>>>>>>>>moment to
>>>>>>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not
>>>>>>>>everyone will
>>>>>>>> have that much credit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>>>>
>>>> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
>>>> charges will apply?
>>>
>>> Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
>>> touch out".
>>
>> Depends what you mean by "a charge", it's probably just a refundable
>> deposit.
>
>Oyster certainly makes a charge when you touch in for the first time that
>day, as in, it deducts money from your available credit (which then
>triggers auto top up if appropriate, so it really is a reduction in your
>available credit, not some notional 'something' which will get applied
>later).
>
>Some of it will get refunded when you touch out, if appropriate. There's no
>way without involving a staff member,

Could that staff member be reachable via the app/website?

>to get it all refunded.

Even a partial refund is still a refund.

>Subsequent journeys the same day might begin with a lesser amount being
>charged, until you've reached the daily cap, at which point zero is charged
>when you touch in for an appropriate journey. At least that's how I
>remember it from days when I've made multiple journeys.

Last time I looked at a statement (maybe from a TVM) there was a
blizzard of touches ins and out, charges and refunds. Quite difficult to
check.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ts8ls9$1fpur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:13:29 on Sat, 11 Feb
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ts8dd7$1er8a$8@dont-email.me>, at 15:48:55 on Sat, 11 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <v15fuhhfohdh4kvq7gr38g0gfiujcnklo2@4ax.com>, at 13:13:24 on
>>>> Sat, 11 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you
>>>>>>>> don't have
>>>>>>>> a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>>>>>>> kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Later...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>>>> equivalent for LU?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, you can only open the LU station gates with an Oyster/cc card.
>>
>> Paper tickets no longer accepted?
>>
>>>> Is that a Khan tourist-tax measure
>>>
>>> Huh? It's free, as this thread has made clear.
>>
>> Ah, so it's free as in no-charge to the Oyster or CCs that the visiting
>> transit passenger manages to conjure out of thin air.
>>
>
>https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/trans
>port/Heathrow-free-travel-map.pdf

I was recollecting the free travel which also included lots of normal
bus stops, for example near hotels on the perimeter road.

>*Oyster or contactless required to activate ticket gates at stations.
>Alternatively, if using the trains between terminals, you can collect a
>free train transfer ticket at train stations.
>No Oyster, contactless or ticket is required for free travel on the H30
>bus.

The devil is in the detail! The bus appears to only run in the wee small
hours when the trains aren't. And even than only every 20 minutes.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ts8oee$1g2c1$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:57:18 on Sat, 11 Feb
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 13:11:28 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>><anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts5h9d$128sb$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:45 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between
>>>>>>>central London
>>>>>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>>>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>>>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2
>>>>>>> or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these
>>>>>>> use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at
>>>>>>>Paddington.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, HEx have dedicated platform and dedicated gateline at
>>>>>>Paddington which
>>>>>> charges the correct fare. If any other trains use those platforms,
>>>>>> passengers have to be directed across the the appropriate,
>>>>>>non-HEx gateline
>>>>>> nearby. I'm not sure what happens in the unlikely event of HEx
>>>>>>using other
>>>>>> platforms, particularly if they're not suitable for guiding passengers
>>>>>> to/from the expensive ticket barriers - perhaps people get a
>>>>>>cheap ride in
>>>>>> that situation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe there is usually a ticket-checker on board, though I don't know
>>>>>> whether there's *always* one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or
>>>>>>>Contactless card
>>>>>>> - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Touching in and out will charge you the correct fare without any
>>>>>> intervention. Any ticket checks on board will be in addition to that, and
>>>>>> won't affect the fare charged.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's
>>>>>>> to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
>>>>>>> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
>>>>>>> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
>>>>>>> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one
>>>>>>>only use
>>>>>>> the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which
>>>>>>> gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you
>>>>>>don't have
>>>>>> a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>>>>> kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>>>>>
>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>
>>>>> Later...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>> equivalent for LU?
>>>
>>> No, you can only open the LU station gates with an Oyster/cc card.
>>>
>>
>> So if you don't have one, you have to use HEx/EL? Interesting.
>>
>
>Paper tickets open LU gates, I’ve used one.

The free paper tickets?
--
Roland Perry

In message <ts8dd6$1er8a$7@dont-email.me>, at 15:48:54 on Sat, 11 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ts89ga$1ee30$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:18 on Sat, 11 Feb
>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 11/02/2023 14:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here
>>>>>> somewhere
>>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir.  (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Later...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>>> equivalent for LU?
>>
>>>> Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow
>>>> is becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we
>>>> train-savvy Brits, what hope do tourists have?
>>>
>>> Amazingly, millions every year seem to cope.
>>
>> Only because they are willing to hand a blank queue to the Mayor.
>>
>> Or perhaps get to the LU gates at one Heathrow terminal to find that the
>> advice they read online about a free transfer is out of date.
>
>It's not.

How do you know what they read online?
--
Roland Perry