In message <34o9vZ1EpL6jFACx@perry.uk>, at 10:07:00 on Sun, 12 Feb 2023,
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>In message <ts8nb9$1fume$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:38:33 on Sat, 11 Feb
>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts7s77$1d2dq$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:55:35 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52
>>>>>>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> having not used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between
>>>>>>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube
>>>>>>>>>>>>> + Elizabeth Line, (3) top price for anything involving the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow Express. They seem to have two separate gate-lines
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> different at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Contactless card - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never
>>>>>>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund
>>>>>>>>>>> difference at touch-out?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at
>>>>>>>>>>the moment to Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading),
>>>>>>>>>>because not everyone will have that much credit.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
>>>>>> charges will apply?
>>>>>
>>>>> Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
>>>>> touch out".
>>>>
>>>> My understanding is that, with cc cards, only one charge is made, at the
>>>> end of the day. It covers all journeys made that day, and tge daiky fare
>>>> cap is applied if necessary. If you have unresolved journeys, or don't
>>>> touch out in time, you get charged a maximum fare for that journey,
>>>
>>> The system isn't psychic. They don't know what "that journey" was, if
>>> unresolved. So they just pluck a figure out of thin air in the hope
>>> it'll be large enough to teach people to touch-out next time.
>>
>>Surely the charge for an unresolved journey is clearly stated on the TfL
>>website somewhere?
>>
>>Oh look:
>><https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster
>>/pay-as-you-go/touching-in-and-out#on-this-page-2>
>
>I'm baffled as to why you suppose anyone suggested the size of the
>charge was a secret. Four clicks inside a website isn't the *most*
>accessible place though.
>
>>> Although getting information about how, why and when you were
>>>>charged seems to get more difficult all the time. A bit like PAYG
>>>>SIMs, which won't give you an itemised statement *even if you seek
>>>>one*, let alone as a routine thing.
>>
>>If your card is registered, you can easily log in and see an itemised list.
>
>My Oyster is registered, but I've not used it for ages. (And they throw
>away all history after 8 weeks).
>
>Looking at my account just now it seems I have *two* Oysters
>registered, which is odd, as I only have one to hand. The "other" has
>£12 on it, so I must try to release that. Report it as lost, perhaps?

I just tried to transfer the £12 to the other Oyster, and it says I have
only until Wednesday to make a journey on TfL in order to collect the
funds.

What use is that!!

>And two accounts for different contactless cards, which have expired
>(as they do).
>
>I'll try to clean it all up later using the app (Just this once I'll
>lift my moratorium on even-more-apps). And look for info there on the
>unresolved journey charge.
>
>And noted the lies on the website; because a CCC isn't the cheapest way
>to pay for Single Tickets, because you can't load Railcards.

OK, some more devil in the detail: It seems you can't register Visitor
Cards, so the people perhaps most needing to know what earth they are
being charged and why, can't find out. Or maybe they need to
instantly-register a CCC.

Also the App only has one of the two Oyster cards visible on the
Website. (Later... that's because the problem one is 1st Generation and
they claim won't play ball with the app. But if the number's just a
pointer to an entry on their backoffice system, what's that got to do
with the card? It's not like the app will allow me to use NFC to
interrogate the card, which would actually be useful).

Found the minimum fare details inside the app, and ignoring for a moment
the Peak/Off-peak difference, there's a grand total of twenty different
charges, depending on where you touched in (or is that also
where-you-touched-out, if you failed to touch-in?)

Our MML correspondent will be delighted to learn that St Pancras MML
platforms are £14.40; curiously it doesn't mention St Pancras HS1
platforms, so maybe they are the plain vanilla Z1-9 £8.90?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ts8dd6$1er8a$7@dont-email.me>, at 15:48:54 on Sat, 11 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts89ga$1ee30$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:18 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 11/02/2023 14:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here
>>>>>>> somewhere
>>>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir.  (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Later...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>>>> equivalent for LU?
>>>
>>>>> Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow
>>>>> is becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we
>>>>> train-savvy Brits, what hope do tourists have?
>>>>
>>>> Amazingly, millions every year seem to cope.
>>>
>>> Only because they are willing to hand a blank queue to the Mayor.
>>>
>>> Or perhaps get to the LU gates at one Heathrow terminal to find that the
>>> advice they read online about a free transfer is out of date.
>>
>> It's not.
>
> How do you know what they read online?

There's been free travel between the three Heathrow terminal Tube stations
for over a decade, and it continues unchanged. However, it's improved
recently as it's now more generous, having been extended to Hatton Cross
station for the first time. So, how could passengers 'get to the LU gates
at one Heathrow terminal to find that the advice they read online about a
free transfer is out of date'?

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 17:47:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <ts8dd7$1er8a$8@dont-email.me>, at 15:48:55 on Sat, 11 Feb
>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <v15fuhhfohdh4kvq7gr38g0gfiujcnklo2@4ax.com>, at 13:13:24 on

>
> >>(viz: scrapping much of the free transport around the airport area,
> >>on his metals/tarmac)?
>>
>>That was a HAL economy measure brought in during Covid.
>
>I'm sure there was a reduction in the service, before Covid. Someone I
>know stayed in one of the perimeter hotels and what would previously
>have been a free bus ride to T123, wasn't any more.

<https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/heathrow-airports-free-buses-no-20799385>

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 10:16:58 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <ts8oee$1g2c1$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:57:18 on Sat, 11 Feb
>2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>>
>>>> No, you can only open the LU station gates with an Oyster/cc card.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So if you don't have one, you have to use HEx/EL? Interesting.
>>>
>>
>>Paper tickets open LU gates, I’ve used one.
>
>The free paper tickets?

Yes, that's an interesting question. Logically, they shouldn't work, but I wonder if they do?

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 17:48:44 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <ts8cna$1ep0c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:14 on Sat, 11 Feb
>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 15:18:21 +0000
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <ts89vl$1eg30$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:50:29 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 14:42:18 +0000
>>>>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>On 11/02/2023 14:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir.  (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Later...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>>>>> equivalent for LU?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow is
>>>>>> becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we train-savvy
>>>>>> Brits, what hope do tourists have?
>>>>>
>>>>>Amazingly, millions every year seem to cope.
>>>>
>>>>I wonder how many millions don't even bother and get a taxi.
>>>
>>> From one terminal to another? Very few I think.
>>
>>Oh ok, I thought you were talking about into London. So unlike Gatwick there's
>>no free transfer between terminals now?
>
>There are free trains, but we've also been discussing free buses around
>the area, and what credentials a person needs to use the free trains.

I think the airport generally points passengers wanting an inter-terminal transfer towards the rail stations, not the LU
stations, so anyone can use them, without needing a cc card or having any risk of getting a charge. It works for any
inter-terminal journey, on trains that probably won't be too crowded.

Conversely, the Tube isn't a useful way of moving from the other terminals to T4, and may be too crowded.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 10:16:58 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <ts8oee$1g2c1$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:57:18 on Sat, 11 Feb
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, you can only open the LU station gates with an Oyster/cc card.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So if you don't have one, you have to use HEx/EL? Interesting.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Paper tickets open LU gates, I’ve used one.
>>
>> The free paper tickets?
>
> Yes, that's an interesting question. Logically, they shouldn't work, but
> I wonder if they do?
>

Wouldn’t they be mag stripe tickets, and don’t LU gates accept them? It’s
the basis of the whole fuss about QR railway tickets not working on many LU
gates and you having to get a mag stripe ticket for cross London transfers.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 10:16:58 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ts8oee$1g2c1$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:57:18 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, you can only open the LU station gates with an Oyster/cc card.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So if you don't have one, you have to use HEx/EL? Interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paper tickets open LU gates, I’ve used one.
>>>
>>> The free paper tickets?
>>
>> Yes, that's an interesting question. Logically, they shouldn't work, but
>> I wonder if they do?
>>
>
> Wouldn’t they be mag stripe tickets, and don’t LU gates accept them?

Yes, they're mag stripe tickets, but that doesn't mean those particular
tickets are valid on LU:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/50569840297/in/album-72157716758978336/

[Note the lack of mention of LU.]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/50569840292/in/album-72157716758978336/

[Note again the lack of mention of the LU stations.]

Those tickets are dispensed in the Heathrow rail stations, but not in the
Tube stations. And see

https://www.heathrow.com/at-the-airport/airport-maps/travel-between-terminals

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 10:16:58 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <ts8oee$1g2c1$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:57:18 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, you can only open the LU station gates with an Oyster/cc card.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So if you don't have one, you have to use HEx/EL? Interesting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paper tickets open LU gates, I’ve used one.
>>>>
>>>> The free paper tickets?
>>>
>>> Yes, that's an interesting question. Logically, they shouldn't work, but
>>> I wonder if they do?
>>>
>>
>> Wouldn’t they be mag stripe tickets, and don’t LU gates accept them?
>
> Yes, they're mag stripe tickets, but that doesn't mean those particular
> tickets are valid on LU:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/50569840297/in/album-72157716758978336/
>
> [Note the lack of mention of LU.]
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/50569840292/in/album-72157716758978336/
>
> [Note again the lack of mention of the LU stations.]
>
> Those tickets are dispensed in the Heathrow rail stations, but not in the
> Tube stations. And see
>
> https://www.heathrow.com/at-the-airport/airport-maps/travel-between-terminals
>

But my, admittedly poorly articulated, point is LU has to have gates that
accept mag stripe as well as contactless. I could have a return ticket from
the Midlands to Heathrow via cross London, so a mag stripe ticket. So the
Heathrow gates have to accept that ticket for my return journey. So a free
inter terminal ticket can be mag stripe and use existing infrastructure.
Eventually mag stripe will vanish and something else will be needed.
Probably just a bit of till roll with an Aztec code.

I suspect the free tickets deliberately do not mention LU so as not to give
the impression to the confused tourist that they can be used for travel
outside of Heathrow.

On 11.02.23 11:55, Recliner wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>>>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central
>>>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>>>>>>>>>> Line, (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They
>>>>>>>>>> seem to have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish
>>>>>>>>>> (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from
>>>>>>>>>> (3) as these use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different
>>>>>>>>>> at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train? And what
>>>>>>>>>> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do
>>>>>>>>>> they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund the
>>>>>>>> difference
>>>>>>>> at touch-out?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
>>>>>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
>>>>>>> have that much credit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>>>
>>>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>>>
>>> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
>>> charges will apply?
>>>
>>
>> Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
>> touch out".
>>
>
> My understanding is that, with cc cards, only one charge is made, at the
> end of the day. It covers all journeys made that day, and tge daiky fare
> cap is applied if necessary. If you have unresolved journeys, or don't
> touch out in time, you get charged a maximum fare for that journey, which
> isn't covered by the daily cap, of:
>
> Up to £8.90 in Zones 1-9 or
> up to £26.00 beyond Zone 9, including on the Heathrow Express

My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For using
it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out for each
journey, until I hit a relevant cap.

Robin

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 10:16:58 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <ts8oee$1g2c1$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:57:18 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, you can only open the LU station gates with an Oyster/cc card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So if you don't have one, you have to use HEx/EL? Interesting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paper tickets open LU gates, I’ve used one.
>>>>>
>>>>> The free paper tickets?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that's an interesting question. Logically, they shouldn't work, but
>>>> I wonder if they do?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wouldn’t they be mag stripe tickets, and don’t LU gates accept them?
>>
>> Yes, they're mag stripe tickets, but that doesn't mean those particular
>> tickets are valid on LU:
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/50569840297/in/album-72157716758978336/
>>
>> [Note the lack of mention of LU.]
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/50569840292/in/album-72157716758978336/
>>
>> [Note again the lack of mention of the LU stations.]
>>
>> Those tickets are dispensed in the Heathrow rail stations, but not in the
>> Tube stations. And see
>>
>> https://www.heathrow.com/at-the-airport/airport-maps/travel-between-terminals
>>
>
> But my, admittedly poorly articulated, point is LU has to have gates that
> accept mag stripe as well as contactless. I could have a return ticket from
> the Midlands to Heathrow via cross London, so a mag stripe ticket. So the
> Heathrow gates have to accept that ticket for my return journey. So a free
> inter terminal ticket can be mag stripe and use existing infrastructure.
> Eventually mag stripe will vanish and something else will be needed.
> Probably just a bit of till roll with an Aztec code.
>
> I suspect the free tickets deliberately do not mention LU so as not to give
> the impression to the confused tourist that they can be used for travel
> outside of Heathrow.

That would also apply to Liz and HEx.

I have the impression that the free Tube travel within Heathrow is aimed
more at staff and locals, not tourists. Presumably HAL has to pay TfL for
each such journey, whereas it wouldn't on the trains. It also doesn't want
to have to explain the difficulties of using the Tube to T4.

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 12:08:02 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:
[snip]
>Back in the day when WAGN had grippers on most Cambridge services, the
>chavs on the Herts/Cambs borders would scan the train as it arrived to
>see if it was "safe" to get on without a ticket. Or having got on, jump
>off just before the doors closed, if they discovered a gripper inside in
>time.

The neds (as we call them here) move to the other portion of the train
at the next station if they see a ticket examiner.

When Abellio were about to take over the franchise, I wrote to the
(Glasgow) Herald pointing out that parent company name was Nederlandse
Spoorwegen, and suggested ScotRail should be renamed NedRail to bring
it in line with the customer profile. To my surprise, this was
printed :-)

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 11.02.23 11:55, Recliner wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>>>>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central
>>>>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>>>>>>>>>>> Line, (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They
>>>>>>>>>>> seem to have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish
>>>>>>>>>>> (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from
>>>>>>>>>>> (3) as these use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different
>>>>>>>>>>> at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train? And what
>>>>>>>>>>> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do
>>>>>>>>>>> they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund the
>>>>>>>>> difference
>>>>>>>>> at touch-out?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
>>>>>>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
>>>>>>>> have that much credit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>>>>
>>>> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
>>>> charges will apply?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
>>> touch out".
>>>
>>
>> My understanding is that, with cc cards, only one charge is made, at the
>> end of the day. It covers all journeys made that day, and tge daiky fare
>> cap is applied if necessary. If you have unresolved journeys, or don't
>> touch out in time, you get charged a maximum fare for that journey, which
>> isn't covered by the daily cap, of:
>>
>> Up to £8.90 in Zones 1-9 or
>> up to £26.00 beyond Zone 9, including on the Heathrow Express
>
> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For using
> it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out for each
> journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>

Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
provisional one? I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards that
they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per day, however
many journeys they made.

According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
>> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For using
>> it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out for each
>> journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>>
>
>Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
>provisional one? I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards that
>they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per day, however
>many journeys they made.

Credit cards have separate steps for authorize and charge. When you check
into a hotel they authorize an amount larger than what they expect you to
spend, then charge the actual amount when you leave.

In my limited experience they do one daily charge to payment cards so
I would think those notifications are authorizations, not final
charges.

I'm still trying to figure out why it is easy to get a no transaction
charge card in the US even though the rest of our banking system is so
awful, but hard everywhere else. The charges are legal, it's not
because they have to.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
>>> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For using
>>> it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out for each
>>> journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>>>
>>
>> Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
>> provisional one? I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards that
>> they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per day, however
>> many journeys they made.
>
> Credit cards have separate steps for authorize and charge. When you check
> into a hotel they authorize an amount larger than what they expect you to
> spend, then charge the actual amount when you leave.
>
> In my limited experience they do one daily charge to payment cards so
> I would think those notifications are authorizations, not final
> charges.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out why it is easy to get a no transaction
> charge card in the US even though the rest of our banking system is so
> awful, but hard everywhere else. The charges are legal, it's not
> because they have to.
>
I’ve two UK credit cards, from mainstream banks, that have no foreign
transaction charges.

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:40:31 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
>>>> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For using
>>>> it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out for each
>>>> journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
>>> provisional one? I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards that
>>> they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per day, however
>>> many journeys they made.
>>
>> Credit cards have separate steps for authorize and charge. When you check
>> into a hotel they authorize an amount larger than what they expect you to
>> spend, then charge the actual amount when you leave.
>>
>> In my limited experience they do one daily charge to payment cards so
>> I would think those notifications are authorizations, not final
>> charges.
>>
>> I'm still trying to figure out why it is easy to get a no transaction
>> charge card in the US even though the rest of our banking system is so
>> awful, but hard everywhere else. The charges are legal, it's not
>> because they have to.
>>
>I’ve two UK credit cards, from mainstream banks, that have no foreign
>transaction charges.
>
In those cases the "charge" can often be found within the exchange
rate.

In message <mjnluhd22t1gnl7qmm72l0g82udmgosdl7@4ax.com>, at 01:08:52 on
Tue, 14 Feb 2023, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:40:31 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
><usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
>>>>> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For using
>>>>> it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out for each
>>>>> journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>>>>>
>>>> Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
>>>> provisional one? I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards that
>>>> they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per day, however
>>>> many journeys they made.
>>>
>>> Credit cards have separate steps for authorize and charge. When you check
>>> into a hotel they authorize an amount larger than what they expect you to
>>> spend, then charge the actual amount when you leave.
>>>
>>> In my limited experience they do one daily charge to payment cards so
>>> I would think those notifications are authorizations, not final
>>> charges.
>>>
>>> I'm still trying to figure out why it is easy to get a no transaction
>>> charge card in the US even though the rest of our banking system is so
>>> awful, but hard everywhere else. The charges are legal, it's not
>>> because they have to.
>>>
>>I’ve two UK credit cards, from mainstream banks, that have no foreign
>>transaction charges.
>>
>In those cases the "charge" can often be found within the exchange
>rate.

I think we may be getting ourselves confused with foreign "cash
withdrawal" (usually ATM) fees, where some cards still charge perhaps
£2/2% whichever is the higher. *If* a £3 travel ticket was regarded as
cash (I don't understand why it would be) then four legs a day could be
£20 if clocked up individually, rather than £14.

Cards which proclaim "no foreign transaction fees" mean that they don't
add perhaps 2% to every purchase as a kind of bureau-de-change fee. And
yes, many cards which say that use an artificially inflated exchange
rate instead. To no-one's surprise, that exchange rate is typically 2%
poorer.

The only exception I have encountered was the Post Office credit card,
which explicitly said it made no hidden charges if you bought in Euros,
and that was because it was a branded Bank-of-Ireland card.

Of course, there's no hidden charges on UK-issued cards when you buy in
pounds!
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <mjnluhd22t1gnl7qmm72l0g82udmgosdl7@4ax.com>, at 01:08:52 on
> Tue, 14 Feb 2023, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
> remarked:
>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:40:31 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>>> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
>>>>>> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For using
>>>>>> it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out for each
>>>>>> journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
>>>>> provisional one? I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards that
>>>>> they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per day, however
>>>>> many journeys they made.
>>>>
>>>> Credit cards have separate steps for authorize and charge. When you check
>>>> into a hotel they authorize an amount larger than what they expect you to
>>>> spend, then charge the actual amount when you leave.
>>>>
>>>> In my limited experience they do one daily charge to payment cards so
>>>> I would think those notifications are authorizations, not final
>>>> charges.
>>>>
>>>> I'm still trying to figure out why it is easy to get a no transaction
>>>> charge card in the US even though the rest of our banking system is so
>>>> awful, but hard everywhere else. The charges are legal, it's not
>>>> because they have to.
>>>>
>>> I’ve two UK credit cards, from mainstream banks, that have no foreign
>>> transaction charges.
>>>
>> In those cases the "charge" can often be found within the exchange
>> rate.
>
> I think we may be getting ourselves confused with foreign "cash
> withdrawal" (usually ATM) fees, where some cards still charge perhaps
> £2/2% whichever is the higher. *If* a £3 travel ticket was regarded as
> cash (I don't understand why it would be) then four legs a day could be
> £20 if clocked up individually, rather than £14.
>
> Cards which proclaim "no foreign transaction fees" mean that they don't
> add perhaps 2% to every purchase as a kind of bureau-de-change fee. And
> yes, many cards which say that use an artificially inflated exchange
> rate instead. To no-one's surprise, that exchange rate is typically 2%
> poorer.
>
> The only exception I have encountered was the Post Office credit card,
> which explicitly said it made no hidden charges if you bought in Euros,
> and that was because it was a branded Bank-of-Ireland card.
>
> Of course, there's no hidden charges on UK-issued cards when you buy in
> pounds!

My two credit cards use the MasterCard rate for foreign purchases, with no
added spread. I don’t know how it would be possible to improve on that as a
regular user.

In message <tsfdv4$2evqr$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:41:25 on Tue, 14 Feb
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <mjnluhd22t1gnl7qmm72l0g82udmgosdl7@4ax.com>, at 01:08:52 on
>> Tue, 14 Feb 2023, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>> remarked:
>>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:40:31 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>>>> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
>>>>>>> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For using
>>>>>>> it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out for each
>>>>>>> journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
>>>>>> provisional one? I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards that
>>>>>> they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per
>>>>>>day, however
>>>>>> many journeys they made.
>>>>>
>>>>> Credit cards have separate steps for authorize and charge. When you check
>>>>> into a hotel they authorize an amount larger than what they expect you to
>>>>> spend, then charge the actual amount when you leave.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my limited experience they do one daily charge to payment cards so
>>>>> I would think those notifications are authorizations, not final
>>>>> charges.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm still trying to figure out why it is easy to get a no transaction
>>>>> charge card in the US even though the rest of our banking system is so
>>>>> awful, but hard everywhere else. The charges are legal, it's not
>>>>> because they have to.
>>>>>
>>>> I’ve two UK credit cards, from mainstream banks, that have no foreign
>>>> transaction charges.
>>>>
>>> In those cases the "charge" can often be found within the exchange
>>> rate.
>>
>> I think we may be getting ourselves confused with foreign "cash
>> withdrawal" (usually ATM) fees, where some cards still charge perhaps
>> £2/2% whichever is the higher. *If* a £3 travel ticket was regarded as
>> cash (I don't understand why it would be) then four legs a day could be
>> £20 if clocked up individually, rather than £14.
>>
>> Cards which proclaim "no foreign transaction fees" mean that they don't
>> add perhaps 2% to every purchase as a kind of bureau-de-change fee. And
>> yes, many cards which say that use an artificially inflated exchange
>> rate instead. To no-one's surprise, that exchange rate is typically 2%
>> poorer.
>>
>> The only exception I have encountered was the Post Office credit card,
>> which explicitly said it made no hidden charges if you bought in Euros,
>> and that was because it was a branded Bank-of-Ireland card.
>>
>> Of course, there's no hidden charges on UK-issued cards when you buy in
>> pounds!
>
>My two credit cards use the MasterCard rate for foreign purchases, with no
>added spread.

It is often alleged that the "Mastercard rate" includes that hidden 2%

>I don’t know how it would be possible to improve on that as a
>regular user.

It's difficult, because the card companies want their pound (or to be
more exact, 2%-3% depending on brand) of flesh however much their
marketing people spin it to the cardholders.

As I said earlier, the only exception I've found is the PO CC (RIP,
unfortunately) which being a native-Euro card had no hidden charges for
buying things in Euros. Indeed, what it also meant was that they ate the
2% for what were for them "out of area" charges in pounds sterling.

Meanwhile, one ruse some have described to me is to get a card which
offers cash-back, in which case if you get 2% cashback on all
transactions [look at the small print] you'd be back on a level (but
only level, not actually getting any cash-*back*) playing field for
overseas transactions.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tsfdv4$2evqr$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:41:25 on Tue, 14 Feb
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <mjnluhd22t1gnl7qmm72l0g82udmgosdl7@4ax.com>, at 01:08:52 on
>>> Tue, 14 Feb 2023, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:40:31 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
>>>>>>>> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For using
>>>>>>>> it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out for each
>>>>>>>> journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
>>>>>>> provisional one? I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards that
>>>>>>> they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per
>>>>>>> day, however
>>>>>>> many journeys they made.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Credit cards have separate steps for authorize and charge. When you check
>>>>>> into a hotel they authorize an amount larger than what they expect you to
>>>>>> spend, then charge the actual amount when you leave.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my limited experience they do one daily charge to payment cards so
>>>>>> I would think those notifications are authorizations, not final
>>>>>> charges.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm still trying to figure out why it is easy to get a no transaction
>>>>>> charge card in the US even though the rest of our banking system is so
>>>>>> awful, but hard everywhere else. The charges are legal, it's not
>>>>>> because they have to.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I’ve two UK credit cards, from mainstream banks, that have no foreign
>>>>> transaction charges.
>>>>>
>>>> In those cases the "charge" can often be found within the exchange
>>>> rate.
>>>
>>> I think we may be getting ourselves confused with foreign "cash
>>> withdrawal" (usually ATM) fees, where some cards still charge perhaps
>>> £2/2% whichever is the higher. *If* a £3 travel ticket was regarded as
>>> cash (I don't understand why it would be) then four legs a day could be
>>> £20 if clocked up individually, rather than £14.
>>>
>>> Cards which proclaim "no foreign transaction fees" mean that they don't
>>> add perhaps 2% to every purchase as a kind of bureau-de-change fee. And
>>> yes, many cards which say that use an artificially inflated exchange
>>> rate instead. To no-one's surprise, that exchange rate is typically 2%
>>> poorer.
>>>
>>> The only exception I have encountered was the Post Office credit card,
>>> which explicitly said it made no hidden charges if you bought in Euros,
>>> and that was because it was a branded Bank-of-Ireland card.
>>>
>>> Of course, there's no hidden charges on UK-issued cards when you buy in
>>> pounds!
>>
>> My two credit cards use the MasterCard rate for foreign purchases, with no
>> added spread.
>
> It is often alleged that the "Mastercard rate" includes that hidden 2%
>
>> I don’t know how it would be possible to improve on that as a
>> regular user.
>
> It's difficult, because the card companies want their pound (or to be
> more exact, 2%-3% depending on brand) of flesh however much their
> marketing people spin it to the cardholders.
>
> As I said earlier, the only exception I've found is the PO CC (RIP,
> unfortunately) which being a native-Euro card had no hidden charges for
> buying things in Euros. Indeed, what it also meant was that they ate the
> 2% for what were for them "out of area" charges in pounds sterling.
>
> Meanwhile, one ruse some have described to me is to get a card which
> offers cash-back, in which case if you get 2% cashback on all
> transactions [look at the small print] you'd be back on a level (but
> only level, not actually getting any cash-*back*) playing field for
> overseas transactions.

You don’t need to listen to allegations about the MasterCard rate, the
facts are easily obtainable. Just now on MasterCard 100 Euro converts to
88.79 pounds. On XE, which claims to use mid market rates you get 88.18
pounds.

In message <tsfqei$2gsgl$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:14:26 on Tue, 14 Feb
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>> It is often alleged that the "Mastercard rate" includes that hidden 2%

....

>You don’t need to listen to allegations about the MasterCard rate,

Crowd sourced data isn't always wrong. But then again it's not always
right.

> the facts are easily obtainable. Just now on MasterCard 100 Euro
>converts to 88.79 pounds. On XE, which claims to use mid market rates
>you get 88.18 pounds.

Gotch! The mid-market rate is halfway between buy and sell.

Thus the actual rate should be 88.18 minus 0.61 = 87.57, which is
heading off towards a 2% rate-hike, especially as we don't know these
numbers are precisely contemporaneous.
--
Roland Perry

On 14/02/2023 17:59, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tsfqei$2gsgl$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:14:26 on Tue, 14 Feb
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> It is often alleged that the "Mastercard rate" includes that hidden 2%
>
> ...
>
>> You don’t need to listen to allegations about the MasterCard rate,
>
> Crowd sourced data isn't always wrong. But then again it's not always
> right.
>
>> the facts are easily obtainable. Just now on MasterCard 100 Euro
>> converts to 88.79 pounds. On XE, which claims to use mid market rates
>> you get 88.18 pounds.
>
> Gotch! The mid-market rate is halfway between buy and sell.
>
> Thus the actual rate should be 88.18 minus 0.61 = 87.57, which is
> heading off towards a 2% rate-hike, especially as we don't know these
> numbers are precisely contemporaneous.

GBP 87.57 is what you might get if selling EUR 100, but that's not
important right now because our consumer is buying Euros to spend
and not selling them.

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:40:31 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
>>>> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For using
>>>> it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out for each
>>>> journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
>>> provisional one? I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards that
>>> they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per day, however
>>> many journeys they made.
>>
>> Credit cards have separate steps for authorize and charge. When you check
>> into a hotel they authorize an amount larger than what they expect you to
>> spend, then charge the actual amount when you leave.
>>
>> In my limited experience they do one daily charge to payment cards so
>> I would think those notifications are authorizations, not final
>> charges.
>>
>> I'm still trying to figure out why it is easy to get a no transaction
>> charge card in the US even though the rest of our banking system is so
>> awful, but hard everywhere else. The charges are legal, it's not
>> because they have to.
>>
>I’ve two UK credit cards, from mainstream banks, that have no foreign
>transaction charges.

Don't get me started. Just a day ago I succumbed to Fred. Olsen's
pleas to go sailing into the wild grey, squally yonder.

Payment involved either of two Visa cards... one from a Canadian Main
Street bank carrying a large credit limit but 3.5% foreign-exchange
fee on top of Visa's generally reasonable exchange rate... the other
with no fee but a limited credit facility despite years of non-abuse
use.

Freddie's folk suggested direct bank transfer CAD to GBP, which would
suit them I'd guess as they would be paying for the pleasure of
accepting credit-card payment. However, that would involve the Canuck
Main Streeter with horrible exchange rate... and still a transaction
fee.

Separate payments via phone conversation with Freddie with two
charge/clear cycles with the no-fee virtual bank won out. Likely two
10-min conversations @ five cents/minute... or a dollar... for the
bother.

Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:40:31 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
>>>>> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For using
>>>>> it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out for each
>>>>> journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
>>>> provisional one? I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards that
>>>> they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per day, however
>>>> many journeys they made.
>>>
>>> Credit cards have separate steps for authorize and charge. When you check
>>> into a hotel they authorize an amount larger than what they expect you to
>>> spend, then charge the actual amount when you leave.
>>>
>>> In my limited experience they do one daily charge to payment cards so
>>> I would think those notifications are authorizations, not final
>>> charges.
>>>
>>> I'm still trying to figure out why it is easy to get a no transaction
>>> charge card in the US even though the rest of our banking system is so
>>> awful, but hard everywhere else. The charges are legal, it's not
>>> because they have to.
>>>
>> I’ve two UK credit cards, from mainstream banks, that have no foreign
>> transaction charges.
>
> Don't get me started. Just a day ago I succumbed to Fred. Olsen's
> pleas to go sailing into the wild grey, squally yonder.
>
> Payment involved either of two Visa cards... one from a Canadian Main
> Street bank carrying a large credit limit but 3.5% foreign-exchange
> fee on top of Visa's generally reasonable exchange rate... the other
> with no fee but a limited credit facility despite years of non-abuse
> use.
>
> Freddie's folk suggested direct bank transfer CAD to GBP, which would
> suit them I'd guess as they would be paying for the pleasure of
> accepting credit-card payment. However, that would involve the Canuck
> Main Streeter with horrible exchange rate... and still a transaction
> fee.
>
> Separate payments via phone conversation with Freddie with two
> charge/clear cycles with the no-fee virtual bank won out. Likely two
> 10-min conversations @ five cents/minute... or a dollar... for the
> bother.
>

Do you have any cashback cards? Those provide a partial compensation for
foreign exchange transaction fees? But, fundamentally, if you're going to
have foreign holidays, you have to accept foreign exchange transaction
costs. They're a relatively trivial increment to the non-trivial cost of
the holiday.

I had six foreign holidays last year, and will probably have five this
year, so I know I've incurred plenty of such costs. It's not something I
worry about.

In message <tshg3u$2mfek$5@dont-email.me>, at 02:30:22 on Wed, 15 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>> Don't get me started. Just a day ago I succumbed to Fred. Olsen's
>> pleas to go sailing into the wild grey, squally yonder.
>>
>> Payment involved either of two Visa cards... one from a Canadian Main
>> Street bank carrying a large credit limit but 3.5% foreign-exchange
>> fee on top of Visa's generally reasonable exchange rate... the other
>> with no fee but a limited credit facility despite years of non-abuse
>> use.
....
>
>Do you have any cashback cards? Those provide a partial compensation for
>foreign exchange transaction fees? But, fundamentally, if you're going to
>have foreign holidays, you have to accept foreign exchange transaction
>costs. They're a relatively trivial increment

Getting back to TfL contactless transactions. Let's say our tourist
takes a £5.60 tube ride from Heathrow to Oxford Circus, then later £2.60
each way to Canary Wharf for some sightseeing and dinner.

They won't get much change from £30 for the dinner, and the card fees
(even at a commission "surcharge" as high as 3.5%) will be 20p, 9p and
9p.

The total far is way below the daily cap, and if charged in one go would
be £10.80, with a fee of 38p, which is remarkably similar to the total
of the three fees above!
--
Roland Perry

Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:40:31 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
>>>>> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For using
>>>>> it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out for each
>>>>> journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
>>>> provisional one? I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards that
>>>> they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per day, however
>>>> many journeys they made.
>>>
>>> Credit cards have separate steps for authorize and charge. When you check
>>> into a hotel they authorize an amount larger than what they expect you to
>>> spend, then charge the actual amount when you leave.
>>>
>>> In my limited experience they do one daily charge to payment cards so
>>> I would think those notifications are authorizations, not final
>>> charges.
>>>
>>> I'm still trying to figure out why it is easy to get a no transaction
>>> charge card in the US even though the rest of our banking system is so
>>> awful, but hard everywhere else. The charges are legal, it's not
>>> because they have to.
>>>
>> I’ve two UK credit cards, from mainstream banks, that have no foreign
>> transaction charges.
>
> Don't get me started. Just a day ago I succumbed to Fred. Olsen's
> pleas to go sailing into the wild grey, squally yonder.
>
> Payment involved either of two Visa cards... one from a Canadian Main
> Street bank carrying a large credit limit but 3.5% foreign-exchange
> fee on top of Visa's generally reasonable exchange rate... the other
> with no fee but a limited credit facility despite years of non-abuse
> use.
>
> Freddie's folk suggested direct bank transfer CAD to GBP, which would
> suit them I'd guess as they would be paying for the pleasure of
> accepting credit-card payment. However, that would involve the Canuck
> Main Streeter with horrible exchange rate... and still a transaction
> fee.
>
> Separate payments via phone conversation with Freddie with two
> charge/clear cycles with the no-fee virtual bank won out. Likely two
> 10-min conversations @ five cents/minute... or a dollar... for the
> bother.
>

Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
transaction?