Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 10/02/2023 15:09, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Are there separate barrier lines at Heathrow?
>>
> No. At LHR T5 at least there is a common barrier line for HEX and Eliz
> line as they use the same platforms. Don't know about the other stations there.
>

I meant for NR and LU.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <JJl*qNz+y@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 15:48:19 on Fri,
10 Feb 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> > On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:04:30 -0000 (UTC)
>> > Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>> >>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>> >>> used it much recently.
>> >>>
>> >>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>> >>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>> >>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>> >>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1)
>> >>>from (2 or
>> >> 3)
>> >>
>> >> Not just separate gate lines, but separate stations. Including Hatton
>> >> Cross, Heathrow has seven stations. Incidentally, HEx can be cheap if you
>> >> book ahead.
>> >
>> > Cheaper than the liz line?
>>
>> HEx: £5.50 advance purchase, £25 PaYG
>>
>> Liz: £11.50
>
>It seems quite hard to get the HEx website to quote below £20. I managed to
>get the £5.50 fare by searching in July, but unless you're willing to book 6
>months ahead you're going to be more expensive than the Liz.

There's a probably a name for that sort of super-cheap offer that hits
the headlines but is only available in three trains a day five months in
the future. Most travellers are savvy about this sort of thing, having
seen an advert for a Ryanair flight for £1.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central
>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>>>>>>> Line, (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They
>>>>>>> seem to have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish
>>>>>>> (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from
>>>>>>> (3) as these use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different
>>>>>>> at Paddington.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train? And what
>>>>>>> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do
>>>>>>> they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund the
>>>>>difference
>>>>> at touch-out?
>>>>
>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
>>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
>>>> have that much credit.
>>>
>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>
>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>
>Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.

Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
charges will apply?

>> Nor perhaps is
>> it the final charge it might make if you fail to touch-out.

--
Roland Perry

On 11/02/2023 07:20, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <JJl*qNz+y@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 15:48:19 on Fri,
> 10 Feb 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> > On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:04:30 -0000 (UTC)
>>> > Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>> >>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow,
>>> having not
>>> >>> used it much recently.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between
>>> central London
>>> >>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>>> Line,
>>> >>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express.  They
>>> seem to
>>> >>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1)
>>> >>>from (2 or
>>> >> 3)
>>> >>
>>> >> Not just separate gate lines, but separate stations. Including Hatton
>>> >> Cross, Heathrow has seven stations.  Incidentally, HEx can be
>>> cheap if you
>>> >> book ahead.
>>> >
>>> > Cheaper than the liz line?
>>>
>>> HEx: £5.50 advance purchase, £25 PaYG
>>>
>>> Liz: £11.50
>>
>> It seems quite hard to get the HEx website to quote below £20.  I
>> managed to
>> get the £5.50 fare by searching in July, but unless you're willing to
>> book 6
>> months ahead you're going to be more expensive than the Liz.
>
> There's a probably a name for that sort of super-cheap offer that hits
> the headlines but is only available in three trains a day five months in
> the future. Most travellers are savvy about this sort of thing, having
> seen an advert for a Ryanair flight for £1.

Bait-and-switch is related, even if not the exact term for this case.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central
>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>>>>>>>> Line, (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They
>>>>>>>> seem to have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish
>>>>>>>> (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from
>>>>>>>> (3) as these use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different
>>>>>>>> at Paddington.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train? And what
>>>>>>>> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do
>>>>>>>> they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund the
>>>>>> difference
>>>>>> at touch-out?
>>>>>
>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
>>>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
>>>>> have that much credit.
>>>>
>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>
>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>
>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>
> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
> charges will apply?
>

Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
touch out".

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central
>>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>>>>>>>>> Line, (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They
>>>>>>>>> seem to have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish
>>>>>>>>> (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from
>>>>>>>>> (3) as these use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different
>>>>>>>>> at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train? And what
>>>>>>>>> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do
>>>>>>>>> they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund the
>>>>>>> difference
>>>>>>> at touch-out?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
>>>>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
>>>>>> have that much credit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>>
>>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>>
>> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
>> charges will apply?
>>
>
> Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
> touch out".
>

My understanding is that, with cc cards, only one charge is made, at the
end of the day. It covers all journeys made that day, and tge daiky fare
cap is applied if necessary. If you have unresolved journeys, or don't
touch out in time, you get charged a maximum fare for that journey, which
isn't covered by the daily cap, of:

Up to £8.90 in Zones 1-9 or
up to £26.00 beyond Zone 9, including on the Heathrow Express

In message <ts7jj8$1c6ve$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:24 on Sat, 11 Feb
2023, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
>On 11/02/2023 07:20, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <JJl*qNz+y@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 15:48:19 on
>>Fri, 10 Feb 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> > On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:04:30 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> > Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>> >>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow,
>>>> having not
>>>> >>> used it much recently.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between
>>>> central London
>>>> >>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube +
>>>> >>>Elizabeth
>>>> Line,
>>>> >>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. 
>>>> >>>
>>>> seem to
>>>> >>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish
>>>> >>>(1) from (2 or
>>>> >> 3)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Not just separate gate lines, but separate stations. Including Hatton
>>>> >> Cross, Heathrow has seven stations.  Incidentally, HEx can be
>>>> cheap if you
>>>> >> book ahead.
>>>> >
>>>> > Cheaper than the liz line?
>>>>
>>>> HEx: £5.50 advance purchase, £25 PaYG
>>>>
>>>> Liz: £11.50
>>>
>>> It seems quite hard to get the HEx website to quote below £20.  I
>>>managed to get the £5.50 fare by searching in July, but unless
>>>you're willing to book 6 months ahead you're going to be more
>>>expensive than the Liz.

>> There's a probably a name for that sort of super-cheap offer that
>>hits the headlines but is only available in three trains a day five
>>months in the future. Most travellers are savvy about this sort of
>>thing, having seen an advert for a Ryanair flight for £1.
>
>Bait-and-switch is related, even if not the exact term for this case.

Yes, that's very close.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ts7lij$1cec7$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:02:11 on Sat, 11 Feb
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:

>>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between
>>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube +
>>>>>>>>>Elizabeth Line, (3) top price for anything involving the
>>>>>>>>>Heathrow Express. They seem to have two separate gate-lines
>>>>>>>>>at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't
>>>>>>>>>understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the
>>>>>>>>>same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>>>>>> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless
>>>>>>>>>card - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund the
>>>>>>>difference at touch-out?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
>>>>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
>>>>>> have that much credit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>>
>>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>>
>> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
>> charges will apply?
>
>Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
>touch out".

Depends what you mean by "a charge", it's probably just a refundable
deposit.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ts7s77$1d2dq$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:55:35 on Sat, 11 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow,
>>>>>>>>>>having not used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between
>>>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube
>>>>>>>>>>+ Elizabeth Line, (3) top price for anything involving the
>>>>>>>>>>Heathrow Express. They seem to have two separate gate-lines
>>>>>>>>>>at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't
>>>>>>>>>>understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the
>>>>>>>>>>different at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>>>>>>>And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or
>>>>>>>>>>Contactless card - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund
>>>>>>>> difference at touch-out?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
>>>>>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
>>>>>>> have that much credit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>>>
>>>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>>>
>>> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
>>> charges will apply?
>>
>> Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
>> touch out".
>
>My understanding is that, with cc cards, only one charge is made, at the
>end of the day. It covers all journeys made that day, and tge daiky fare
>cap is applied if necessary. If you have unresolved journeys, or don't
>touch out in time, you get charged a maximum fare for that journey,

The system isn't psychic. They don't know what "that journey" was, if
unresolved. So they just pluck a figure out of thin air in the hope
it'll be large enough to teach people to touch-out next time.

Although getting information about how, why and when you were charged
seems to get more difficult all the time. A bi like PAYG SIMs, which
won't give you an itemised statement *even if you seek one*, let alone
as a routine thing.

>which isn't covered by the daily cap, of:
>
>Up to £8.90 in Zones 1-9 or
>up to £26.00 beyond Zone 9, including on the Heathrow Express
>

--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 11:25:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <ts7s77$1d2dq$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:55:35 on Sat, 11 Feb
>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow,
>>>>>>>>>>>having not used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between
>>>>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube
>>>>>>>>>>>+ Elizabeth Line, (3) top price for anything involving the
>>>>>>>>>>>Heathrow Express. They seem to have two separate gate-lines
>>>>>>>>>>>at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the
>>>>>>>>>>>different at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>>>>>>>>And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or
>>>>>>>>>>>Contactless card - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund
>>>>>>>>> difference at touch-out?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
>>>>>>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
>>>>>>>> have that much credit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>>>>
>>>> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
>>>> charges will apply?
>>>
>>> Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
>>> touch out".
>>
>>My understanding is that, with cc cards, only one charge is made, at the
>>end of the day. It covers all journeys made that day, and tge daiky fare
>>cap is applied if necessary. If you have unresolved journeys, or don't
>>touch out in time, you get charged a maximum fare for that journey,
>
>The system isn't psychic. They don't know what "that journey" was, if
>unresolved. So they just pluck a figure out of thin air in the hope
>it'll be large enough to teach people to touch-out next time.

It does mean that some people could game the system, touching in in a Z1-9 station, and exiting via an open station
outside Z9. The 'maximum' fare they're charged could be less than the actual fare for that journey.

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 15:07:00 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <ts5h9d$128sb$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:45 on Fri, 10 Feb
>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>> used it much recently.
>>>
>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2
>>> or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these
>>> use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>
>>
>>Yes, HEx have dedicated platform and dedicated gateline at Paddington which
>>charges the correct fare. If any other trains use those platforms,
>>passengers have to be directed across the the appropriate, non-HEx gateline
>>nearby. I'm not sure what happens in the unlikely event of HEx using other
>>platforms, particularly if they're not suitable for guiding passengers
>>to/from the expensive ticket barriers - perhaps people get a cheap ride in
>>that situation.
>>
>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>
>>I believe there is usually a ticket-checker on board, though I don't know
>>whether there's *always* one.
>>
>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card
>>> - do they just charge an excess?
>>
>>Touching in and out will charge you the correct fare without any
>>intervention. Any ticket checks on board will be in addition to that, and
>>won't affect the fare charged.
>>
>>> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's
>>> to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
>>> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
>>> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
>>> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one only use
>>> the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which
>>> gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.
>>
>>AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
>>a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>
>You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>
>Later...
>
>http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>
>Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!

I assume those paper tickets must have a time-limited validity of perhaps, an hour. Otherwise, they could be stockpiled,
and used to exit the system at a lower price.

In message <lvveuhd89g973vu9emo9p047meir3o33he@4ax.com>, at 11:48:46 on
Sat, 11 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 11:25:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <ts7s77$1d2dq$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:55:35 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts5ogb$1318o$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:39:55 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow,
>>>>>>>>>>>>having not used it much recently.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between
>>>>>>>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube
>>>>>>>>>>>>+ Elizabeth Line, (3) top price for anything involving the
>>>>>>>>>>>>Heathrow Express. They seem to have two separate gate-lines
>>>>>>>>>>>>at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the
>>>>>>>>>>>>different at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>>>>>>>>>And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or
>>>>>>>>>>>>Contactless card - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out,
>>>>>>>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never
>>>>>>>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund
>>>>>>>>>> difference at touch-out?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the
>>>>>>>>>moment to Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading),
>>>>>>>>>because not everyone will have that much credit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.
>>>>>
>>>>> Great comfort to people travelling *today*, who want to know what
>>>>> charges will apply?
>>>>
>>>> Still more correct than "Neither of those charge you anything, until you
>>>> touch out".
>>>
>>>My understanding is that, with cc cards, only one charge is made, at the
>>>end of the day. It covers all journeys made that day, and tge daiky fare
>>>cap is applied if necessary. If you have unresolved journeys, or don't
>>>touch out in time, you get charged a maximum fare for that journey,
>>
>>The system isn't psychic. They don't know what "that journey" was, if
>>unresolved. So they just pluck a figure out of thin air in the hope
>>it'll be large enough to teach people to touch-out next time.
>
>It does mean that some people could game the system, touching in in a
>Z1-9 station, and exiting via an open station outside Z9. The
>'maximum' fare they're charged could be less than the actual fare for
>that journey.

Yes, we've all know that ever since Oyster was introduced (actually
before that, because I know people who used to buy a cheap tube ticket
to enter the system, then exit cross-platform at places like Stratford.

The decision for revenue protection strategists is to decide if it's
worth the candle chasing after such people. Different schemes make
different decisions. I think the KeyG payg system disables the card
after three unresolved journeys in a month, for example (as well as
charging the fee each time).

Back in the day when WAGN had grippers on most Cambridge services, the
chavs on the Herts/Cambs borders would scan the train as it arrived to
see if it was "safe" to get on without a ticket. Or having got on, jump
off just before the doors closed, if they discovered a gripper inside in
time.
--
Roland Perry

In message <d61fuhtvlhu3j9gv4t2b3la29i2uppftf3@4ax.com>, at 12:07:53 on
Sat, 11 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 15:07:00 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <ts5h9d$128sb$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:45 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>
>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2
>>>> or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these
>>>> use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, HEx have dedicated platform and dedicated gateline at Paddington which
>>>charges the correct fare. If any other trains use those platforms,
>>>passengers have to be directed across the the appropriate, non-HEx gateline
>>>nearby. I'm not sure what happens in the unlikely event of HEx using other
>>>platforms, particularly if they're not suitable for guiding passengers
>>>to/from the expensive ticket barriers - perhaps people get a cheap ride in
>>>that situation.
>>>
>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>
>>>I believe there is usually a ticket-checker on board, though I don't know
>>>whether there's *always* one.
>>>
>>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card
>>>> - do they just charge an excess?
>>>
>>>Touching in and out will charge you the correct fare without any
>>>intervention. Any ticket checks on board will be in addition to that, and
>>>won't affect the fare charged.
>>>
>>>> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's
>>>> to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
>>>> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
>>>> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
>>>> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one only use
>>>> the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which
>>>> gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.
>>>
>>>AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
>>>a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>>kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>>
>>You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>
>>Later...
>>
>>http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>
>>Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>
>I assume those paper tickets must have a time-limited validity of
>perhaps, an hour. Otherwise, they could be stockpiled, and used to exit
>the system at a lower price.

Exit at Heathrow, presumably. Surely they wouldn't be accepted anywhere
else. Being used "on the day" is probably sufficient, though.

What I don't know is if they will do multiple trips. For example, if I
were to park at the "wrong" terminal, and then catch the train to greet
an arrival at a different terminal, would the same ticket get me back.

Not that money comes into it; as the tickets are free, and the parking
at the "wrong" terminal will be clocking up like crazy.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 12:42:20 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <d61fuhtvlhu3j9gv4t2b3la29i2uppftf3@4ax.com>, at 12:07:53 on
>Sat, 11 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 15:07:00 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <ts5h9d$128sb$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:45 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>>>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2
>>>>> or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these
>>>>> use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes, HEx have dedicated platform and dedicated gateline at Paddington which
>>>>charges the correct fare. If any other trains use those platforms,
>>>>passengers have to be directed across the the appropriate, non-HEx gateline
>>>>nearby. I'm not sure what happens in the unlikely event of HEx using other
>>>>platforms, particularly if they're not suitable for guiding passengers
>>>>to/from the expensive ticket barriers - perhaps people get a cheap ride in
>>>>that situation.
>>>>
>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>
>>>>I believe there is usually a ticket-checker on board, though I don't know
>>>>whether there's *always* one.
>>>>
>>>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card
>>>>> - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>
>>>>Touching in and out will charge you the correct fare without any
>>>>intervention. Any ticket checks on board will be in addition to that, and
>>>>won't affect the fare charged.
>>>>
>>>>> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's
>>>>> to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
>>>>> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
>>>>> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
>>>>> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one only use
>>>>> the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which
>>>>> gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.
>>>>
>>>>AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
>>>>a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>>>kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>>>
>>>You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>
>>>Later...
>>>
>>>http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>
>>>Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>
>>I assume those paper tickets must have a time-limited validity of
>>perhaps, an hour. Otherwise, they could be stockpiled, and used to exit
>>the system at a lower price.
>
>Exit at Heathrow, presumably. Surely they wouldn't be accepted anywhere
>else.

Yes, obviously

> Being used "on the day" is probably sufficient, though.

Could be, though I suspect that might allow some scams that one-hour validity would block.

>
>What I don't know is if they will do multiple trips. For example, if I
>were to park at the "wrong" terminal, and then catch the train to greet
>an arrival at a different terminal, would the same ticket get me back.

Just get a new ticket for each journey.

>
>Not that money comes into it; as the tickets are free, and the parking
>at the "wrong" terminal will be clocking up like crazy.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ts5h9d$128sb$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:45 on Fri, 10 Feb
> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>> used it much recently.
>>>
>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2
>>> or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these
>>> use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, HEx have dedicated platform and dedicated gateline at Paddington which
>> charges the correct fare. If any other trains use those platforms,
>> passengers have to be directed across the the appropriate, non-HEx gateline
>> nearby. I'm not sure what happens in the unlikely event of HEx using other
>> platforms, particularly if they're not suitable for guiding passengers
>> to/from the expensive ticket barriers - perhaps people get a cheap ride in
>> that situation.
>>
>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>
>> I believe there is usually a ticket-checker on board, though I don't know
>> whether there's *always* one.
>>
>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card
>>> - do they just charge an excess?
>>
>> Touching in and out will charge you the correct fare without any
>> intervention. Any ticket checks on board will be in addition to that, and
>> won't affect the fare charged.
>>
>>> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's
>>> to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
>>> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
>>> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
>>> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one only use
>>> the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which
>>> gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.
>>
>> AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
>> a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>> kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>
> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>
> Later...
>
> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>
> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>

Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
equivalent for LU?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 13:11:28 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ts5h9d$128sb$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:45 on Fri, 10 Feb
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>
>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2
>>>> or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these
>>>> use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, HEx have dedicated platform and dedicated gateline at Paddington which
>>> charges the correct fare. If any other trains use those platforms,
>>> passengers have to be directed across the the appropriate, non-HEx gateline
>>> nearby. I'm not sure what happens in the unlikely event of HEx using other
>>> platforms, particularly if they're not suitable for guiding passengers
>>> to/from the expensive ticket barriers - perhaps people get a cheap ride in
>>> that situation.
>>>
>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>
>>> I believe there is usually a ticket-checker on board, though I don't know
>>> whether there's *always* one.
>>>
>>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card
>>>> - do they just charge an excess?
>>>
>>> Touching in and out will charge you the correct fare without any
>>> intervention. Any ticket checks on board will be in addition to that, and
>>> won't affect the fare charged.
>>>
>>>> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's
>>>> to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
>>>> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
>>>> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
>>>> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one only use
>>>> the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which
>>>> gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.
>>>
>>> AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
>>> a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>> kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>>
>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>
>> Later...
>>
>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>
>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>
>
>Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>equivalent for LU?

No, you can only open the LU station gates with an Oyster/cc card.

In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>
>> Later...
>>
>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>
>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>
>Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>equivalent for LU?

Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow is
becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we train-savvy
Brits, what hope do tourists have?
--
Roland Perry

On 11/02/2023 14:37, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir.  (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>
>>> Later...
>>>
>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>
>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>
>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>> equivalent for LU?
>
> Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow is
> becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we train-savvy
> Brits, what hope do tourists have?

Amazingly, millions every year seem to cope.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 14:37:55 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>
>>> Later...
>>>
>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>
>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>
>>Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>equivalent for LU?
>
>Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow is
>becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we train-savvy
>Brits, what hope do tourists have?

Do LU and the Liz line have ticket offices down there or are newcomers
expected to figure out the ticket machines with a queue of 20 people behind
them and 1 lonely "passenger service assistant" hiding in the broom cupboard?

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 14:42:18 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 11/02/2023 14:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir.  (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>
>>>> Later...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>
>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>> equivalent for LU?
>>
>> Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow is
>> becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we train-savvy
>> Brits, what hope do tourists have?
>
>Amazingly, millions every year seem to cope.

I wonder how many millions don't even bother and get a taxi.

In message <v15fuhhfohdh4kvq7gr38g0gfiujcnklo2@4ax.com>, at 13:13:24 on
Sat, 11 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>> AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
>>>> a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>>> kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>>>
>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>
>>> Later...
>>>
>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>
>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>
>>
>>Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>equivalent for LU?
>
>No, you can only open the LU station gates with an Oyster/cc card.

Is that a Khan tourist-tax measure (viz: scrapping much of the free
transport around the airport area, on his metals/tarmac)?
--
Roland Perry

In message <ts89u9$1efhh$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:49:45 on Sat, 11 Feb
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 14:37:55 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>
>>>> Later...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>
>>>Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>equivalent for LU?
>>
>>Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow is
>>becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we train-savvy
>>Brits, what hope do tourists have?
>
>Do LU and the Liz line have ticket offices down there or are newcomers
>expected to figure out the ticket machines with a queue of 20 people behind
>them and 1 lonely "passenger service assistant" hiding in the broom cupboard?

The ticketing facility at T5 is a number of TVMs clustered on the
concourse near the escalators/lifts down to the platforms.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ts89ga$1ee30$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:18 on Sat, 11 Feb
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 11/02/2023 14:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here
>>>>somewhere
>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir.  (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>
>>>> Later...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>
>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>> equivalent for LU?

>> Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow
>>is becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we
>>train-savvy Brits, what hope do tourists have?
>
>Amazingly, millions every year seem to cope.

Only because they are willing to hand a blank queue to the Mayor.

Or perhaps get to the LU gates at one Heathrow terminal to find that the
advice they read online about a free transfer is out of date.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ts89vl$1eg30$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:50:29 on Sat, 11 Feb
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 14:42:18 +0000
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>On 11/02/2023 14:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir.  (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>
>>>>> Later...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>
>>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>> equivalent for LU?
>>>
>>> Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow is
>>> becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we train-savvy
>>> Brits, what hope do tourists have?
>>
>>Amazingly, millions every year seem to cope.
>
>I wonder how many millions don't even bother and get a taxi.

From one terminal to another? Very few I think.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 15:18:21 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <ts89vl$1eg30$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:50:29 on Sat, 11 Feb
>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 14:42:18 +0000
>>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>On 11/02/2023 14:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ts8460$1dsj8$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:28 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>>>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir.  (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Later...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that also valid on LU to/from Hatton Cross? Or is there a similar
>>>>> equivalent for LU?
>>>>
>>>> Hand to hand fighting with the ticketing Balkanisation at Heathrow is
>>>> becoming rather tedious. If the answer isn't obvious to we train-savvy
>>>> Brits, what hope do tourists have?
>>>
>>>Amazingly, millions every year seem to cope.
>>
>>I wonder how many millions don't even bother and get a taxi.
>
> From one terminal to another? Very few I think.

Oh ok, I thought you were talking about into London. So unlike Gatwick there's
no free transfer between terminals now?