Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tshg3u$2mfek$5@dont-email.me>, at 02:30:22 on Wed, 15 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> Don't get me started. Just a day ago I succumbed to Fred. Olsen's
>>> pleas to go sailing into the wild grey, squally yonder.
>>>
>>> Payment involved either of two Visa cards... one from a Canadian Main
>>> Street bank carrying a large credit limit but 3.5% foreign-exchange
>>> fee on top of Visa's generally reasonable exchange rate... the other
>>> with no fee but a limited credit facility despite years of non-abuse
>>> use.
> ...
>>
>> Do you have any cashback cards? Those provide a partial compensation for
>> foreign exchange transaction fees? But, fundamentally, if you're going to
>> have foreign holidays, you have to accept foreign exchange transaction
>> costs. They're a relatively trivial increment
>
> Getting back to TfL contactless transactions. Let's say our tourist
> takes a £5.60 tube ride from Heathrow to Oxford Circus, then later £2.60
> each way to Canary Wharf for some sightseeing and dinner.
>
> They won't get much change from £30 for the dinner, and the card fees
> (even at a commission "surcharge" as high as 3.5%) will be 20p, 9p and
> 9p.
>
> The total far is way below the daily cap, and if charged in one go would
> be £10.80, with a fee of 38p, which is remarkably similar to the total
> of the three fees above!

Obviously so, if the fees are a pure percentage; it doesn't matter if it's
a single or multiple transactions. But some cards have a fixed surcharge on
*each* foreign currency transaction, and in those cases, it's advantageous
if TfL groups all the payments in one day into a single charge.

On 14/02/2023 10:38, Roland Perry wrote:
> As I said earlier, the only exception I've found is the PO CC (RIP, unfortunately) which being a native-Euro card had no hidden charges for buying things in Euros. Indeed, what it also meant was that they ate the 2% for what were for them "out of area" charges in pounds sterling.

PO credit cards are indeed defunct, but they have moved customers to Jaja. It has an awful website, app, and customer service (see e.g. trusted reviews), but still allows Euro transactions without the commission charged by other cards. My recent experience is that their exchange rate is quite reasonable. I'm not sure whether they are allowing anyone except old PO card users to apply - maybe their technology is so overwhelmed that they don't want more customers at present.

--
Clive Page

On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 08:28:17 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:40:31 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>>> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
>>>>>> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For using
>>>>>> it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out for each
>>>>>> journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
>>>>> provisional one? I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards that
>>>>> they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per day, however
>>>>> many journeys they made.
>>>>
>>>> Credit cards have separate steps for authorize and charge. When you check
>>>> into a hotel they authorize an amount larger than what they expect you to
>>>> spend, then charge the actual amount when you leave.
>>>>
>>>> In my limited experience they do one daily charge to payment cards so
>>>> I would think those notifications are authorizations, not final
>>>> charges.
>>>>
>>>> I'm still trying to figure out why it is easy to get a no transaction
>>>> charge card in the US even though the rest of our banking system is so
>>>> awful, but hard everywhere else. The charges are legal, it's not
>>>> because they have to.
>>>>
>>> I’ve two UK credit cards, from mainstream banks, that have no foreign
>>> transaction charges.
>>
>> Don't get me started. Just a day ago I succumbed to Fred. Olsen's
>> pleas to go sailing into the wild grey, squally yonder.
>>
>> Payment involved either of two Visa cards... one from a Canadian Main
>> Street bank carrying a large credit limit but 3.5% foreign-exchange
>> fee on top of Visa's generally reasonable exchange rate... the other
>> with no fee but a limited credit facility despite years of non-abuse
>> use.
>>
>> Freddie's folk suggested direct bank transfer CAD to GBP, which would
>> suit them I'd guess as they would be paying for the pleasure of
>> accepting credit-card payment. However, that would involve the Canuck
>> Main Streeter with horrible exchange rate... and still a transaction
>> fee.
>>
>> Separate payments via phone conversation with Freddie with two
>> charge/clear cycles with the no-fee virtual bank won out. Likely two
>> 10-min conversations @ five cents/minute... or a dollar... for the
>> bother.
>>
>
>Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>transaction?

I am able to (i.e. I *can*) do that sort of... with a Big Butt: the
purchase/transaction limit on the card is not additionally tied to
surplus credit from pre-loading. It's static.

After bulk-loading, I'd then have to somehow time the series of
part-charges by whatever business to allow each segment to clear
before allowing the next. Those overnight transactions/postings
aren't necessarily predictable. It depends how quickly a business
bills the Visa system, and the debit changes from pending to an actual
charge.

Thank goodness for remarkably cheap international phone rates -- long
gone the days of the likes of £3/min with a three-min minimum!

On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 02:30:22 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:40:31 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>>> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
>>>>>> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For using
>>>>>> it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out for each
>>>>>> journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
>>>>> provisional one? I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards that
>>>>> they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per day, however
>>>>> many journeys they made.
>>>>
>>>> Credit cards have separate steps for authorize and charge. When you check
>>>> into a hotel they authorize an amount larger than what they expect you to
>>>> spend, then charge the actual amount when you leave.
>>>>
>>>> In my limited experience they do one daily charge to payment cards so
>>>> I would think those notifications are authorizations, not final
>>>> charges.
>>>>
>>>> I'm still trying to figure out why it is easy to get a no transaction
>>>> charge card in the US even though the rest of our banking system is so
>>>> awful, but hard everywhere else. The charges are legal, it's not
>>>> because they have to.
>>>>
>>> I’ve two UK credit cards, from mainstream banks, that have no foreign
>>> transaction charges.
>>
>> Don't get me started. Just a day ago I succumbed to Fred. Olsen's
>> pleas to go sailing into the wild grey, squally yonder.
>>
>> Payment involved either of two Visa cards... one from a Canadian Main
>> Street bank carrying a large credit limit but 3.5% foreign-exchange
>> fee on top of Visa's generally reasonable exchange rate... the other
>> with no fee but a limited credit facility despite years of non-abuse
>> use.
>>
>> Freddie's folk suggested direct bank transfer CAD to GBP, which would
>> suit them I'd guess as they would be paying for the pleasure of
>> accepting credit-card payment. However, that would involve the Canuck
>> Main Streeter with horrible exchange rate... and still a transaction
>> fee.
>>
>> Separate payments via phone conversation with Freddie with two
>> charge/clear cycles with the no-fee virtual bank won out. Likely two
>> 10-min conversations @ five cents/minute... or a dollar... for the
>> bother.
>>
>
>Do you have any cashback cards? Those provide a partial compensation for
>foreign exchange transaction fees?

It is/was a cashback card, originally for all purchases... till a year
or so back the pleasure for *international/foreign currency*
transactions was removed so it's now just Canadian-dollar purchases.

But AFAIAA it remains the only Visa no annual fee/no international
transaction charge card.

In message <tsi74u$2rkia$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:03:26 on Wed, 15 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tshg3u$2mfek$5@dont-email.me>, at 02:30:22 on Wed, 15 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> Don't get me started. Just a day ago I succumbed to Fred. Olsen's
>>>> pleas to go sailing into the wild grey, squally yonder.
>>>>
>>>> Payment involved either of two Visa cards... one from a Canadian Main
>>>> Street bank carrying a large credit limit but 3.5% foreign-exchange
>>>> fee on top of Visa's generally reasonable exchange rate... the other
>>>> with no fee but a limited credit facility despite years of non-abuse
>>>> use.
>> ...
>>>
>>> Do you have any cashback cards? Those provide a partial compensation for
>>> foreign exchange transaction fees? But, fundamentally, if you're going to
>>> have foreign holidays, you have to accept foreign exchange transaction
>>> costs. They're a relatively trivial increment
>>
>> Getting back to TfL contactless transactions. Let's say our tourist
>> takes a £5.60 tube ride from Heathrow to Oxford Circus, then later £2.60
>> each way to Canary Wharf for some sightseeing and dinner.
>>
>> They won't get much change from £30 for the dinner, and the card fees
>> (even at a commission "surcharge" as high as 3.5%) will be 20p, 9p and
>> 9p.
>>
>> The total far is way below the daily cap, and if charged in one go would
>> be £10.80, with a fee of 38p, which is remarkably similar to the total
>> of the three fees above!
>
>Obviously so, if the fees are a pure percentage; it doesn't matter if it's
>a single or multiple transactions. But some cards have a fixed surcharge on
>*each* foreign currency transaction,

I'd like some evidence of such fixed fees for non-cash transactions.

>and in those cases, it's advantageous if TfL groups all the payments in
>one day into a single charge.

Only if it's not a null set.

In other news, I have a visitor arriving soon, and they were worried
about buying a coffee at Heathrow in the event I was delayed (last time
I drove there I was delayed about 4hrs by climate protesters).

Good news: they've upgraded their card to C&P - but still not
contactless - and claimed that a coffee was bound to be less than the
minimum charge. We were able to assure them that Starbucks at Heathrow
has no minimum [card] charge. {At their profit margins, who cares}

In other news: Went to my local garden centre yesterday to buy some odds
and ends. The person in front of me at the till saw the sign which said
"Minimum £10 for cards", which I know they rigorously enforce. [My plan
B is to buy some top-up item that I'm bound to need sometime this year].

So the person offered cash. The assistant went ballistic! "£20 note; I
don't have enough change for a £20 note !!"

And in a final bit of Grand-dad news: Decided to give in, and put the
Tesco loyalty card app on my phone. I've had the card since they were
first issued in 1995, and also tried not very successfully to use their
rev0.1 online shopping service in 2001 (too many wonky substitutes,
something they've still not fixed all this time later).

Discovered I had some un-redeemed vouchers which must have been "lost in
the post", so went to the shop this morning to use them. Sadly no mobile
coverage (a very common problem inside their steel-framed sheds anywhere
in the country) so no can do. I'm on O2, and I doubt Tesco Mobile's MVNO
O2 coverage is any better. I was stood about 25ft away from a Tesco
Mobile shop-in-a-shop.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:40:31 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>>> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
>>>>>> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For using
>>>>>> it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out for each
>>>>>> journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
>>>>> provisional one? I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards that
>>>>> they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per day, however
>>>>> many journeys they made.
>>>>
>>>> Credit cards have separate steps for authorize and charge. When you check
>>>> into a hotel they authorize an amount larger than what they expect you to
>>>> spend, then charge the actual amount when you leave.
>>>>
>>>> In my limited experience they do one daily charge to payment cards so
>>>> I would think those notifications are authorizations, not final
>>>> charges.
>>>>
>>>> I'm still trying to figure out why it is easy to get a no transaction
>>>> charge card in the US even though the rest of our banking system is so
>>>> awful, but hard everywhere else. The charges are legal, it's not
>>>> because they have to.
>>>>
>>> I’ve two UK credit cards, from mainstream banks, that have no foreign
>>> transaction charges.
>>
>> Don't get me started. Just a day ago I succumbed to Fred. Olsen's
>> pleas to go sailing into the wild grey, squally yonder.
>>
>> Payment involved either of two Visa cards... one from a Canadian Main
>> Street bank carrying a large credit limit but 3.5% foreign-exchange
>> fee on top of Visa's generally reasonable exchange rate... the other
>> with no fee but a limited credit facility despite years of non-abuse
>> use.
>>
>> Freddie's folk suggested direct bank transfer CAD to GBP, which would
>> suit them I'd guess as they would be paying for the pleasure of
>> accepting credit-card payment. However, that would involve the Canuck
>> Main Streeter with horrible exchange rate... and still a transaction
>> fee.
>>
>> Separate payments via phone conversation with Freddie with two
>> charge/clear cycles with the no-fee virtual bank won out. Likely two
>> 10-min conversations @ five cents/minute... or a dollar... for the
>> bother.
>
>Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>transaction?

It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
forbidden as overpaying £10k.
--
Roland Perry

On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>> transaction?
>
> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
> forbidden as overpaying £10k.

This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if you keep
repeating it often enough it'll become true?

There is no particular money-laundering risk of putting money on a card and
then spending it abroad with a credit card than there would be with a debit
card on a bank account, or a prepay card - and, newsflash, both debit cards
and prepay cards are very much Things That Do Exist. There's fuck all value in
a money laundering scheme where the payment instrument used on both ends of
the transaction is the same. It's not laundering at all, in fact.

As you've been told before, the reason credit card companies don't like taking
overpayment is because if they routinely hold deposits, that makes them a bank
- and banks are subject to different and more onerous regulations than lenders
(to take a trivial example, being required to be part of and fund a deposit
protection scheme.)

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>> transaction?
>>
>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>> forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>
> This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if you keep
> repeating it often enough it'll become true?
>
> There is no particular money-laundering risk of putting money on a card and
> then spending it abroad with a credit card than there would be with a debit
> card on a bank account, or a prepay card - and, newsflash, both debit cards
> and prepay cards are very much Things That Do Exist. There's fuck all value in
> a money laundering scheme where the payment instrument used on both ends of
> the transaction is the same. It's not laundering at all, in fact.
>
> As you've been told before, the reason credit card companies don't like taking
> overpayment is because if they routinely hold deposits, that makes them a bank
> - and banks are subject to different and more onerous regulations than lenders
> (to take a trivial example, being required to be part of and fund a deposit
> protection scheme.)
>

Is this why I get no grief from my credit card providers, as they are all
mainstream banks?

On 16 Feb 2023 at 7:40:56 PM EET, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>>> transaction?
>>>
>>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>>> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>>> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>>> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>>> forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>>
>> This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if you keep
>> repeating it often enough it'll become true?
>>
>> There is no particular money-laundering risk of putting money on a card and
>> then spending it abroad with a credit card than there would be with a debit
>> card on a bank account, or a prepay card - and, newsflash, both debit cards
>> and prepay cards are very much Things That Do Exist. There's fuck all value in
>> a money laundering scheme where the payment instrument used on both ends of
>> the transaction is the same. It's not laundering at all, in fact.
>>
>> As you've been told before, the reason credit card companies don't like taking
>> overpayment is because if they routinely hold deposits, that makes them a bank
>> - and banks are subject to different and more onerous regulations than lenders
>> (to take a trivial example, being required to be part of and fund a deposit
>> protection scheme.)
>>
>
> Is this why I get no grief from my credit card providers, as they are all
> mainstream banks?

Almost certainly. If you're already subject to bank regulation anyway, you're
going to be less scared of becoming subject to bank regulation :-).

(Although even then, I'd expect quite a few 'bank' credit cards are actually
issued by subsidiaries or sister-companies that /aren't/ banks, so I'd
certainly not want to make a blanket statement.)

(Incidentally, I should add that while there is no /particular/ risk to credit
cards, there are money-laundering risks with cards which allow you obtain and
fund a card anonymously - but that's not really an issue with credit cards
(who tend to be very keen on knowing their customer before they're willing to
extend them credit, quite apart from KYC/AML regulation) and much more of an
issue with prepay cards.)

On 16/02/2023 16:48, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:40:31 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>>> According to Recliner  <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>>>> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to pay for
>>>>>>> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made. For
>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>> it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the touch-out
>>>>>>> for each
>>>>>>> journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
>>>>>> provisional one?  I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards that
>>>>>> they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per day,
>>>>>> however
>>>>>> many journeys they made.
>>>>>
>>>>> Credit cards have separate steps for authorize and charge.  When
>>>>> you check
>>>>> into a hotel they authorize an amount larger than what they expect
>>>>> you to
>>>>> spend, then charge the actual amount when you leave.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my limited experience they do one daily charge to payment cards so
>>>>> I would think those notifications are authorizations, not final
>>>>> charges.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm still trying to figure out why it is easy to get a no transaction
>>>>> charge card in the US even though the rest of our banking system is so
>>>>> awful, but hard everywhere else. The charges are legal, it's not
>>>>> because they have to.
>>>>>
>>>> I’ve two UK credit cards, from mainstream banks, that have no foreign
>>>> transaction charges.
>>>
>>> Don't get me started.  Just a day ago I succumbed to Fred. Olsen's
>>> pleas to go sailing into the wild grey, squally yonder.
>>>
>>> Payment involved either of two Visa cards... one from a Canadian Main
>>> Street bank carrying a large credit limit but 3.5% foreign-exchange
>>> fee on top of Visa's generally reasonable exchange rate... the other
>>> with no fee but a limited credit facility despite years of non-abuse
>>> use.
>>>
>>> Freddie's folk suggested direct bank transfer CAD to GBP, which would
>>> suit them I'd guess as they would be paying for the pleasure of
>>> accepting credit-card payment.  However, that would involve the Canuck
>>> Main Streeter with horrible exchange rate... and still a transaction
>>> fee.
>>>
>>> Separate payments via phone conversation with Freddie with two
>>> charge/clear cycles with the no-fee virtual bank won out.  Likely two
>>> 10-min conversations @ five cents/minute... or a dollar... for the
>>> bother.
>>
>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>> transaction?
>
> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
> forbidden as overpaying £10k.

One of my cards had a credit when both TUI and BA refunded tickets due
to the covid crisis.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ts5h9d$128sb$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:45 on Fri, 10 Feb
> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>> used it much recently.
>>>
>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2
>>> or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these
>>> use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, HEx have dedicated platform and dedicated gateline at Paddington which
>> charges the correct fare. If any other trains use those platforms,
>> passengers have to be directed across the the appropriate, non-HEx gateline
>> nearby. I'm not sure what happens in the unlikely event of HEx using other
>> platforms, particularly if they're not suitable for guiding passengers
>> to/from the expensive ticket barriers - perhaps people get a cheap ride in
>> that situation.
>>
>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>
>> I believe there is usually a ticket-checker on board, though I don't know
>> whether there's *always* one.
>>
>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card
>>> - do they just charge an excess?
>>
>> Touching in and out will charge you the correct fare without any
>> intervention. Any ticket checks on board will be in addition to that, and
>> won't affect the fare charged.
>>
>>> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's
>>> to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
>>> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
>>> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
>>> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one only use
>>> the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which
>>> gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.
>>
>> AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
>> a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>> kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>
> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>
> Later...
>
> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>
> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!

Doesn’t say it’s not valid to Penzance, Holyhead or Wick, either. Or even
Ely - you could have tried that.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 17/02/2023 16:39, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ts5h9d$128sb$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:45 on Fri, 10 Feb
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>
>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2
>>>> or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these
>>>> use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, HEx have dedicated platform and dedicated gateline at Paddington which
>>> charges the correct fare. If any other trains use those platforms,
>>> passengers have to be directed across the the appropriate, non-HEx gateline
>>> nearby. I'm not sure what happens in the unlikely event of HEx using other
>>> platforms, particularly if they're not suitable for guiding passengers
>>> to/from the expensive ticket barriers - perhaps people get a cheap ride in
>>> that situation.
>>>
>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>
>>> I believe there is usually a ticket-checker on board, though I don't know
>>> whether there's *always* one.
>>>
>>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card
>>>> - do they just charge an excess?
>>>
>>> Touching in and out will charge you the correct fare without any
>>> intervention. Any ticket checks on board will be in addition to that, and
>>> won't affect the fare charged.
>>>
>>>> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's
>>>> to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
>>>> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
>>>> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
>>>> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one only use
>>>> the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which
>>>> gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.
>>>
>>> AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
>>> a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>> kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>>
>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>
>> Later...
>>
>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>
>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>
> Doesn’t say it’s not valid to Penzance, Holyhead or Wick, either. Or even
> Ely - you could have tried that.

Bizarrely, it does say it may be valid on the DLR if it has a Maltese
cross, which I assume it hasn't.

Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
> On 17/02/2023 16:39, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts5h9d$128sb$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:45 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>>>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2
>>>>> or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these
>>>>> use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, HEx have dedicated platform and dedicated gateline at Paddington which
>>>> charges the correct fare. If any other trains use those platforms,
>>>> passengers have to be directed across the the appropriate, non-HEx gateline
>>>> nearby. I'm not sure what happens in the unlikely event of HEx using other
>>>> platforms, particularly if they're not suitable for guiding passengers
>>>> to/from the expensive ticket barriers - perhaps people get a cheap ride in
>>>> that situation.
>>>>
>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>
>>>> I believe there is usually a ticket-checker on board, though I don't know
>>>> whether there's *always* one.
>>>>
>>>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card
>>>>> - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>
>>>> Touching in and out will charge you the correct fare without any
>>>> intervention. Any ticket checks on board will be in addition to that, and
>>>> won't affect the fare charged.
>>>>
>>>>> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's
>>>>> to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
>>>>> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
>>>>> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
>>>>> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one only use
>>>>> the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which
>>>>> gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.
>>>>
>>>> AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
>>>> a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>>> kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>>>
>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>
>>> Later...
>>>
>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>
>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>>
>> Doesn’t say it’s not valid to Penzance, Holyhead or Wick, either. Or even
>> Ely - you could have tried that.
>
> Bizarrely, it does say it may be valid on the DLR if it has a Maltese
> cross, which I assume it hasn't.

It doesn't.

In message <tsodvo$3meuf$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:36:56 on Fri, 17 Feb
2023, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
>On 17/02/2023 16:39, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts5h9d$128sb$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:45 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>>>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2
>>>>> or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these
>>>>> use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, HEx have dedicated platform and dedicated gateline at Paddington which
>>>> charges the correct fare. If any other trains use those platforms,
>>>> passengers have to be directed across the the appropriate, non-HEx gateline
>>>> nearby. I'm not sure what happens in the unlikely event of HEx using other
>>>> platforms, particularly if they're not suitable for guiding passengers
>>>> to/from the expensive ticket barriers - perhaps people get a cheap ride in
>>>> that situation.
>>>>
>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>>>>
>>>> I believe there is usually a ticket-checker on board, though I don't know
>>>> whether there's *always* one.
>>>>
>>>>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card
>>>>> - do they just charge an excess?
>>>>
>>>> Touching in and out will charge you the correct fare without any
>>>> intervention. Any ticket checks on board will be in addition to that, and
>>>> won't affect the fare charged.
>>>>
>>>>> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's
>>>>> to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
>>>>> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
>>>>> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
>>>>> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one only use
>>>>> the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which
>>>>> gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.
>>>>
>>>> AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
>>>> a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>>>> kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.
>>>
>>> You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
>>> from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).
>>>
>>> Later...
>>>
>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg
>>>
>>> Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
>> Doesn’t say it’s not valid to Penzance, Holyhead or Wick,
>>either. Or even
>> Ely - you could have tried that.
>
>Bizarrely, it does say it may be valid on the DLR if it has a Maltese
>cross, which I assume it hasn't.

I've posted the photo. Everyone can see whether it has a Maltese Cross
or not.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tsnkec$3jh8t$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:20:59 on Fri, 17 Feb
2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>On 16/02/2023 16:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>>2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:40:31 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>>>> According to Recliner  <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>> My phone is set up so that if I use the card stored on it to
>>>>>>>> something it gives me a notification when the charge is made.
>>>>>>>>For using it on TfL contactless, I get the notification at the
>>>>>>>>touch-out for each journey, until I hit a relevant cap.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting, I wonder if that's an actual charge or some sort of
>>>>>>>provisional one?  I thought TfL reassured users of foreign cards
>>>>>>> they'd only incur one foreign currency transaction charge per
>>>>>>>day, however many journeys they made.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Credit cards have separate steps for authorize and charge.  When
>>>>>>you check into a hotel they authorize an amount larger than what
>>>>>>they expect you to spend, then charge the actual amount when you leave.

>>>>>> In my limited experience they do one daily charge to payment cards so
>>>>>> I would think those notifications are authorizations, not final
>>>>>> charges.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm still trying to figure out why it is easy to get a no transaction
>>>>>> charge card in the US even though the rest of our banking system is so
>>>>>> awful, but hard everywhere else. The charges are legal, it's not
>>>>>> because they have to.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I’ve two UK credit cards, from mainstream banks, that have no foreign
>>>>> transaction charges.
>>>>
>>>> Don't get me started.  Just a day ago I succumbed to Fred. Olsen's
>>>> pleas to go sailing into the wild grey, squally yonder.
>>>>
>>>> Payment involved either of two Visa cards... one from a Canadian Main
>>>> Street bank carrying a large credit limit but 3.5% foreign-exchange
>>>> fee on top of Visa's generally reasonable exchange rate... the other
>>>> with no fee but a limited credit facility despite years of non-abuse
>>>> use.
>>>>
>>>> Freddie's folk suggested direct bank transfer CAD to GBP, which would
>>>> suit them I'd guess as they would be paying for the pleasure of
>>>> accepting credit-card payment.  However, that would involve the Canuck
>>>> Main Streeter with horrible exchange rate... and still a transaction
>>>> fee.
>>>>
>>>> Separate payments via phone conversation with Freddie with two
>>>> charge/clear cycles with the no-fee virtual bank won out.  Likely two
>>>> 10-min conversations @ five cents/minute... or a dollar... for the
>>>> bother.
>>>
>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>> transaction?

>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>>vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>>where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>>overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>>forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>
>One of my cards had a credit when both TUI and BA refunded tickets due
>to the covid crisis.

Yes, that happened to me when my third-in-a-row railtour was cancelled.
(Not sure I'm up for 4th time lucky). But such credits can't be helped,
nor are they the holder over-paying.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tslovm$3aeb0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:14 on Thu, 16 Feb
2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>> transaction?
>>
>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>> forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>
>This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if you keep
>repeating it often enough it'll become true?

It's what I was told by people in the card issuing community when I
queried it. I'm also familiar with various international money
laundering precautions (have you never looked at a form you've filled in
declaring what cash, and more recently also what other financial
instruments such as topped-up prepay cards, you have on you when
entering a country)?

>There is no particular money-laundering risk of putting money on a card and
>then spending it abroad with a credit card than there would be with a debit
>card on a bank account,

Apart from various rules which force banks to report unusual and foreign
cash transactions.

>or a prepay card - and, newsflash, both debit cards and prepay cards
>are very much Things That Do Exist.

Who do you think I don't know that? It's preposterous.

>There's fuck all value in a money laundering scheme where the payment
>instrument used on both ends of the transaction is the same. It's not
>laundering at all, in fact.

Of course it is. It allows cash to be transferred from one place to
another, without going over a bank counter (and hence potentially
triggering reporting mechanisms), or being in a person's wallet as they
go through customs.

ObRail Newsflash: About a year ago it was reported that part of the E*
delays at Paris was the French Customs (now that we've Brexited) wanting
to do spot checks on how much cash people were taking out of the
country.

>As you've been told before, the reason credit card companies don't like taking
>overpayment is because if they routinely hold deposits, that makes them a bank
>- and banks are subject to different and more onerous regulations than lenders
>(to take a trivial example, being required to be part of and fund a deposit
>protection scheme.)

Are there credit card issuers who aren't banks in their spare time. Hold
the front page, I need to go tell Barclays about this.

Indeed, as I have mentioned many times, even quite recently, my
once-favourite credit card, branded "Post Office", was issued by Bank of
Ireland. Are they not a Bank. Really?!?!?!
--
Roland Perry

In message <k54dd4Ff2rsU1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:52:04 on Wed, 15
Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:

>On 14/02/2023 10:38, Roland Perry wrote:

>> As I said earlier, the only exception I've found is the PO CC (RIP,
>>unfortunately) which being a native-Euro card had no hidden charges
>>for buying things in Euros. Indeed, what it also meant was that they
>>ate the 2% for what were for them "out of area" charges in pounds sterling.
>
>PO credit cards are indeed defunct, but they have moved customers to
>Jaja. It has an awful website, app, and customer service (see e.g.
>trusted reviews), but still allows Euro transactions without the
>commission charged by other cards.

Without [hidden] commission (which seems highly unlikely) or without a
fixed fee per non-cash transaction?

We keep wandering off topic.

>My recent experience is that their exchange rate is quite reasonable.

Can you post a couple of examples, so we can check the official rates on
that day. My hunch is we'll find the pretty much industry standard 3%
margin.

>I'm not sure whether they are allowing anyone except old PO card users
>to apply - maybe their technology is so overwhelmed that they don't
>want more customers at present.

I have one, and didn't apply, so the proposition is poorly drafted. They
simply transferred me whether I wanted them to or not.

I agree that their technology is flaky.

The website says today: "We are currently not accepting new applications
for our credit card. <<Find out more>>" and if you click on that it
takes you back to the home page. What a bunch of numpties!

--
Roland Perry

On 18/02/2023 10:35, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tslovm$3aeb0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:14 on Thu, 16 Feb
> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>> On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>>> transaction?
>>>
>>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>>> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>>> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>>> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>>> forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>>
>> This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if you
>> keep
>> repeating it often enough it'll become true?
>
> It's what I was told by people in the card issuing community when I
> queried it. I'm also familiar with various international money
> laundering precautions (have you never looked at a form you've filled in
> declaring what cash, and more recently also what other financial
> instruments such as topped-up prepay cards, you have on you when
> entering a country)?
>

Haven't seen one of those in more years than I care to admit to!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 18/02/2023 11:03, Roland Perry wrote:
> Without [hidden] commission (which seems highly unlikely) or without a fixed fee per non-cash transaction?
>
> We keep wandering off topic.
>
>> My recent experience is that their exchange rate is quite reasonable.
>
> Can you post a couple of examples, so we can check the official rates on that day. My hunch is we'll find the pretty much industry standard 3% margin.

OK, on 31st Oct 2022 I charged Euro 76.39 in France, billed by Jaja as £67.22. The website exchange-rates.org.uk says the rate then was 1.1399 which means I should have been charged £67.19.

On 31st Jan 2023 I charged Euro 16 in Portugal, billed by Jaja as £14.08. exchange-rates.org.uk says rate on that date was 1.1334, so I should have been charged £14.12. Not far off in both cases. And there is no extra charge for retail transactions, only for taking cash from a machine.

Please check yourself, I may not have chosen the best exchange rate history website.

--
Clive Page

In message <k5bvorFma33U1@mid.individual.net>, at 12:48:27 on Sat, 18
Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>On 18/02/2023 11:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Without [hidden] commission (which seems highly unlikely) or without
>>a fixed fee per non-cash transaction?
>> We keep wandering off topic.
>>
>>> My recent experience is that their exchange rate is quite
>>>reasonable.
>> Can you post a couple of examples, so we can check the official
>>rates on that day. My hunch is we'll find the pretty much industry
>>standard 3% margin.
>
>OK, on 31st Oct 2022 I charged Euro 76.39 in France, billed by Jaja as
>£67.22. The website exchange-rates.org.uk says the rate then was
>1.1399 which means I should have been charged £67.19.
>
>On 31st Jan 2023 I charged Euro 16 in Portugal, billed by Jaja as
>£14.08. exchange-rates.org.uk says rate on that date was 1.1334, so I
>should have been charged £14.12. Not far off in both cases.

Unfortunately those are both Euro conversions, which we already know the
PO/Jaja card claims to treat specially. Because they consider Euro
transactions as domestic (because they bank in Eire). And see below for
the mid-rate fallacy.

>And there is no extra charge for retail transactions, only for taking
>cash from a machine.

OK, so there *is* still that transaction charge (for cash); as I
suspected.

>Please check yourself, I may not have chosen the best exchange rate
>history website.

AIUI such sites quote the mid-rate, in other words halfway between buy
and sell.

eg today Ten-Euro = 8.89 pounds on that site.

Looking at the Post Office site, they will give you 1.085 Euros for
every pound you send them; that's a rate of 9.22; whereas if you want to
sell ten Euros they'll give you £7.75

That latter is super-mean [8.56 would be fairer], but the difference
between 9.22 and 8.89 is 3.5%, pretty much bang-on the number I've been
mentioning repeatedly.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 10:35:37 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
> Are there credit card issuers who aren't banks in their spare time. Hold
> the front page, I need to go tell Barclays about this.

Yes, there are a few about. American Express, and NewDay (who do most of
the "store brand" cards) for example. Capital One is a bank in the US,
but don't appear to be registered as a bank in the UK. There's almost
certainly more.

Mike

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tslovm$3aeb0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:14 on Thu, 16 Feb
> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>> On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>>> transaction?
>>>
>>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>>> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>>> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>>> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>>> forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>>
>> This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if you keep
>> repeating it often enough it'll become true?
>
> It's what I was told by people in the card issuing community when I
> queried it. I'm also familiar with various international money
> laundering precautions (have you never looked at a form you've filled in
> declaring what cash, and more recently also what other financial
> instruments such as topped-up prepay cards, you have on you when
> entering a country)?
>
>> There is no particular money-laundering risk of putting money on a card and
>> then spending it abroad with a credit card than there would be with a debit
>> card on a bank account,
>
> Apart from various rules which force banks to report unusual and foreign
> cash transactions.
>
>> or a prepay card - and, newsflash, both debit cards and prepay cards
>> are very much Things That Do Exist.
>
> Who do you think I don't know that? It's preposterous.
>
>> There's fuck all value in a money laundering scheme where the payment
>> instrument used on both ends of the transaction is the same. It's not
>> laundering at all, in fact.
>
> Of course it is. It allows cash to be transferred from one place to
> another, without going over a bank counter (and hence potentially
> triggering reporting mechanisms), or being in a person's wallet as they
> go through customs.
>
> ObRail Newsflash: About a year ago it was reported that part of the E*
> delays at Paris was the French Customs (now that we've Brexited) wanting
> to do spot checks on how much cash people were taking out of the
> country.
>
>> As you've been told before, the reason credit card companies don't like taking
>> overpayment is because if they routinely hold deposits, that makes them a bank
>> - and banks are subject to different and more onerous regulations than lenders
>> (to take a trivial example, being required to be part of and fund a deposit
>> protection scheme.)
>
> Are there credit card issuers who aren't banks in their spare time. Hold
> the front page, I need to go tell Barclays about this.
>
> Indeed, as I have mentioned many times, even quite recently, my
> once-favourite credit card, branded "Post Office", was issued by Bank of
> Ireland. Are they not a Bank. Really?!?!?!

I don’t see how overpaying my credit card can be a money laundering issue.
I can take out 300 Euro in cash abroad and go 300 Euro into debit on my
card. That’s what they like as they charge interest from the moment I
withdraw the cash. Or I can put my card into credit by the equivalent of
300 Euro and withdraw that at the cash machine. Either way 300 Euro has
moved into cash. Hardly a money laundering operation. Now if I put 30k Euro
on my card I could see an issue (disregarding the difficulties in
withdrawing it), but I’d sort of expect various figurative alarm bells to
ring at the credit card company then. 10k Euro is the limit of cash you can
take through customs without declaring it.

According to Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk>:
>On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 10:35:37 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Are there credit card issuers who aren't banks in their spare time. Hold
>> the front page, I need to go tell Barclays about this.
>
>Yes, there are a few about. American Express, and NewDay (who do most of
>the "store brand" cards) for example. Capital One is a bank in the US,
>but don't appear to be registered as a bank in the UK. There's almost
>certainly more.

AmEx converted to a US bank holding company during the 2008 financial
crisis. Around the same time they sold their international bank to
Standard Chartered.

In the U.S. they have some unimpressive online bank offerings with
current and savings accounts, and a business bank that used to be
called Kabbage.

Circling back to the original topic, the Kabbage debit card has a 2.7%
foreign transaction fee, which is pretty bad for a US debit card. My
smallish regional bank only charges 1%.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On 18 Feb 2023 at 12:35:37 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

> In message <tslovm$3aeb0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:14 on Thu, 16 Feb
> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>> On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>>> transaction?
>>>
>>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>>> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>>> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>>> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>>> forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>>
>> This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if you keep
>> repeating it often enough it'll become true?
>
> It's what I was told by people in the card issuing community when I
> queried it. I'm also familiar with various international money
> laundering precautions (have you never looked at a form you've filled in
> declaring what cash, and more recently also what other financial
> instruments such as topped-up prepay cards, you have on you when
> entering a country)?

Roland, I literally run a (fully regulated) payments processing business that
processed a greater transaction value yesterday - and every other day - than
Amstrad's entire annual revenues at its peak.

I do not need to guess at AML regulations based on a customs form you once
filled in.

You really are an insufferable idiot.

In message <tsri59$51ls$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:06:33 on Sat, 18 Feb
2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>On 18 Feb 2023 at 12:35:37 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <tslovm$3aeb0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:14 on Thu, 16 Feb
>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>> On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>>>> transaction?
>>>>
>>>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>>>> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>>>> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>>>> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>>>> forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>>>
>>> This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if you keep
>>> repeating it often enough it'll become true?
>>
>> It's what I was told by people in the card issuing community when I
>> queried it. I'm also familiar with various international money
>> laundering precautions (have you never looked at a form you've filled in
>> declaring what cash, and more recently also what other financial
>> instruments such as topped-up prepay cards, you have on you when
>> entering a country)?
>
>Roland, I literally run a (fully regulated) payments processing business that
>processed a greater transaction value yesterday - and every other day - than
>Amstrad's entire annual revenues at its peak.
>
>I do not need to guess at AML regulations based on a customs form you once
>filled in.

Perhaps you missed the bit about people I spoke to in the industry.

>You really are an insufferable idiot.

And you need some better manners.
--
Roland Perry