On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 18:46:25 +0000, John Levine wrote:
> According to Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk>:
>>On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 10:35:37 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> Are there credit card issuers who aren't banks in their spare time.
>>> Hold the front page, I need to go tell Barclays about this.
>>
>>Yes, there are a few about. American Express, and NewDay (who do most of
>>the "store brand" cards) for example. Capital One is a bank in the US,
>>but don't appear to be registered as a bank in the UK. There's almost
>>certainly more.
>
> AmEx converted to a US bank holding company during the 2008 financial
> crisis. Around the same time they sold their international bank to
> Standard Chartered.

Ok, thanks - wasn't aware of that. But that puts them in the same boat as
Capital One - while they may be a bank, they're not authorised for
banking in the UK. NewDay are quite definitely not a bank, though, and
issue a surprising number of cards.

Mike

On 19/02/2023 13:11, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tsri59$51ls$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:06:33 on Sat, 18 Feb
> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>> On 18 Feb 2023 at 12:35:37 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <tslovm$3aeb0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:14 on Thu, 16 Feb
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>>>>> transaction?
>>>>>
>>>>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>>>>> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>>>>> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>>>>> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>>>>> forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>>>>
>>>> This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if
>>>> you keep
>>>> repeating it often enough it'll become true?
>>>
>>> It's what I was told by people in the card issuing community when I
>>> queried it. I'm also familiar with various international money
>>> laundering precautions (have you never looked at a form you've filled in
>>> declaring what cash, and more recently also what other financial
>>> instruments such as topped-up prepay cards, you have on you when
>>> entering a country)?
>>
>> Roland, I literally run a (fully regulated) payments processing
>> business that
>> processed a greater transaction value yesterday - and every other day
>> - than
>> Amstrad's entire annual revenues at its peak.
>>
>> I do not need to guess at AML regulations based on a customs form you
>> once
>> filled in.
>
> Perhaps you missed the bit about people I spoke to in the industry.
>
>> You really are an insufferable idiot.
>
> And you need some better manners.

I think many of us would do better to criticise others' comments
constructively, rather than making /ad hominem/ attacks on the poster.

In message <tst8ha$dd9f$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:34:34 on Sun, 19 Feb
2023, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
>On 19/02/2023 13:11, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tsri59$51ls$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:06:33 on Sat, 18 Feb
>>2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>> On 18 Feb 2023 at 12:35:37 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <tslovm$3aeb0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:14 on Thu, 16 Feb
>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>>>>>> transaction?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>>>>>> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>>>>>> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>>>>>> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>>>>>> forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if
>>>>>you keep repeating it often enough it'll become true?
>>>>
>>>> It's what I was told by people in the card issuing community when I
>>>> queried it. I'm also familiar with various international money
>>>> laundering precautions (have you never looked at a form you've filled in
>>>> declaring what cash, and more recently also what other financial
>>>> instruments such as topped-up prepay cards, you have on you when
>>>> entering a country)?
>>>
>>> Roland, I literally run a (fully regulated) payments processing
>>>business that processed a greater transaction value yesterday - and
>>>every other day - than Amstrad's entire annual revenues at its
>>>peak. I do not need to guess at AML regulations based on a customs
>>>form you once filled in.

>> Perhaps you missed the bit about people I spoke to in the industry.
>>
>>> You really are an insufferable idiot.

>> And you need some better manners.
>
>I think many of us would do better to criticise others' comments
>constructively, rather than making /ad hominem/ attacks on the poster.

As someone who is overwhelmingly on the receiving end, I completely
agree. With one proviso, which is it's a good way to tell that the
person with the potty-mouth has just completely undermined their
argument and any credibility they might have had.

And that also goes for comments about the places people live or
employers they had a lifetime ago.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tsqsst$2a69$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:03:41 on Sat, 18 Feb
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tslovm$3aeb0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:14 on Thu, 16 Feb
>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>> On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>>>> transaction?
>>>>
>>>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>>>> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>>>> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>>>> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>>>> forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>>>
>>> This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if you keep
>>> repeating it often enough it'll become true?
>>
>> It's what I was told by people in the card issuing community when I
>> queried it. I'm also familiar with various international money
>> laundering precautions (have you never looked at a form you've filled in
>> declaring what cash, and more recently also what other financial
>> instruments such as topped-up prepay cards, you have on you when
>> entering a country)?
>>
>>> There is no particular money-laundering risk of putting money on a card and
>>> then spending it abroad with a credit card than there would be with a debit
>>> card on a bank account,
>>
>> Apart from various rules which force banks to report unusual and foreign
>> cash transactions.
>>
>>> or a prepay card - and, newsflash, both debit cards and prepay cards
>>> are very much Things That Do Exist.
>>
>> Who do you think I don't know that? It's preposterous.
>>
>>> There's fuck all value in a money laundering scheme where the payment
>>> instrument used on both ends of the transaction is the same. It's not
>>> laundering at all, in fact.
>>
>> Of course it is. It allows cash to be transferred from one place to
>> another, without going over a bank counter (and hence potentially
>> triggering reporting mechanisms), or being in a person's wallet as they
>> go through customs.
>>
>> ObRail Newsflash: About a year ago it was reported that part of the E*
>> delays at Paris was the French Customs (now that we've Brexited) wanting
>> to do spot checks on how much cash people were taking out of the
>> country.
>>
>>> As you've been told before, the reason credit card companies don't
>>>like taking overpayment is because if they routinely hold deposits,
>>>that makes them a bank - and banks are subject to different and more
>>>onerous regulations than lenders (to take a trivial example, being
>>>required to be part of and fund a deposit protection scheme.)
>>
>> Are there credit card issuers who aren't banks in their spare time. Hold
>> the front page, I need to go tell Barclays about this.
>>
>> Indeed, as I have mentioned many times, even quite recently, my
>> once-favourite credit card, branded "Post Office", was issued by Bank of
>> Ireland. Are they not a Bank. Really?!?!?!
>
>I don’t see how overpaying my credit card can be a money laundering issue.
>I can take out 300 Euro in cash abroad and go 300 Euro into debit on my
>card.

It's not about laundering trivial amounts like that: $3k+ is the sort of
figure they had in mind. And you probably don't have a cash-advance
limit for that.

>That’s what they like as they charge interest from the moment I
>withdraw the cash. Or I can put my card into credit by the equivalent of
>300 Euro and withdraw that at the cash machine. Either way 300 Euro has
>moved into cash. Hardly a money laundering operation. Now if I put 30k Euro
>on my card I could see an issue (disregarding the difficulties in
>withdrawing it), but I’d sort of expect various figurative alarm bells to
>ring at the credit card company then. 10k Euro is the limit of cash you can
>take through customs without declaring it.

You are now much more in the ball-park.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 19 Feb 2023 14:26:37 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <tsqsst$2a69$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:03:41 on Sat, 18 Feb
>2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tslovm$3aeb0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:14 on Thu, 16 Feb
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>>>>> transaction?
>>>>>
>>>>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>>>>> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>>>>> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>>>>> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>>>>> forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>>>>
>>>> This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if you keep
>>>> repeating it often enough it'll become true?
>>>
>>> It's what I was told by people in the card issuing community when I
>>> queried it. I'm also familiar with various international money
>>> laundering precautions (have you never looked at a form you've filled in
>>> declaring what cash, and more recently also what other financial
>>> instruments such as topped-up prepay cards, you have on you when
>>> entering a country)?
>>>
>>>> There is no particular money-laundering risk of putting money on a card and
>>>> then spending it abroad with a credit card than there would be with a debit
>>>> card on a bank account,
>>>
>>> Apart from various rules which force banks to report unusual and foreign
>>> cash transactions.
>>>
>>>> or a prepay card - and, newsflash, both debit cards and prepay cards
>>>> are very much Things That Do Exist.
>>>
>>> Who do you think I don't know that? It's preposterous.
>>>
>>>> There's fuck all value in a money laundering scheme where the payment
>>>> instrument used on both ends of the transaction is the same. It's not
>>>> laundering at all, in fact.
>>>
>>> Of course it is. It allows cash to be transferred from one place to
>>> another, without going over a bank counter (and hence potentially
>>> triggering reporting mechanisms), or being in a person's wallet as they
>>> go through customs.
>>>
>>> ObRail Newsflash: About a year ago it was reported that part of the E*
>>> delays at Paris was the French Customs (now that we've Brexited) wanting
>>> to do spot checks on how much cash people were taking out of the
>>> country.
>>>
>>>> As you've been told before, the reason credit card companies don't
>>>>like taking overpayment is because if they routinely hold deposits,
>>>>that makes them a bank - and banks are subject to different and more
>>>>onerous regulations than lenders (to take a trivial example, being
>>>>required to be part of and fund a deposit protection scheme.)
>>>
>>> Are there credit card issuers who aren't banks in their spare time. Hold
>>> the front page, I need to go tell Barclays about this.
>>>
>>> Indeed, as I have mentioned many times, even quite recently, my
>>> once-favourite credit card, branded "Post Office", was issued by Bank of
>>> Ireland. Are they not a Bank. Really?!?!?!
>>
>>I don’t see how overpaying my credit card can be a money laundering issue.
>>I can take out 300 Euro in cash abroad and go 300 Euro into debit on my
>>card.
>
>It's not about laundering trivial amounts like that: $3k+ is the sort of
>figure they had in mind. And you probably don't have a cash-advance
>limit for that.
>
Multiple repeated cash withdrawals with a high ongoing daily/weekly
flow could be a further trigger for investigation anyway. Making
payments to pet companies for goods which are later re-sold would be
less noticeable but not inevitably a guaranteed cloak for the
operation. The limits must have gone up in recent years as I have had
no more requests for information since my bank queried the origins of
the money from a small insurance policy some years ago.

>>That’s what they like as they charge interest from the moment I
>>withdraw the cash. Or I can put my card into credit by the equivalent of
>>300 Euro and withdraw that at the cash machine. Either way 300 Euro has
>>moved into cash. Hardly a money laundering operation. Now if I put 30k Euro
>>on my card I could see an issue (disregarding the difficulties in
>>withdrawing it), but I’d sort of expect various figurative alarm bells to
>>ring at the credit card company then. 10k Euro is the limit of cash you can
>>take through customs without declaring it.
>
>You are now much more in the ball-park.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tst8ha$dd9f$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:34:34 on Sun, 19 Feb
> 2023, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
>> On 19/02/2023 13:11, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <tsri59$51ls$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:06:33 on Sat, 18 Feb
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 18 Feb 2023 at 12:35:37 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <tslovm$3aeb0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:14 on Thu, 16 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>>>>>>> transaction?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>>>>>>> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>>>>>>> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>>>>>>> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>>>>>>> forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if
>>>>>> you keep repeating it often enough it'll become true?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's what I was told by people in the card issuing community when I
>>>>> queried it. I'm also familiar with various international money
>>>>> laundering precautions (have you never looked at a form you've filled in
>>>>> declaring what cash, and more recently also what other financial
>>>>> instruments such as topped-up prepay cards, you have on you when
>>>>> entering a country)?
>>>>
>>>> Roland, I literally run a (fully regulated) payments processing
>>>> business that processed a greater transaction value yesterday - and
>>>> every other day - than Amstrad's entire annual revenues at its
>>>> peak. I do not need to guess at AML regulations based on a customs
>>>> form you once filled in.
>
>>> Perhaps you missed the bit about people I spoke to in the industry.
>>>
>>>> You really are an insufferable idiot.
>
>>> And you need some better manners.
>>
>> I think many of us would do better to criticise others' comments
>> constructively, rather than making /ad hominem/ attacks on the poster.
>
> As someone who is overwhelmingly on the receiving end,

And why do you think that is? Has it never occurred to you that there's a
good reason for it?

>
> And that also goes for comments about the places people live or
> employers they had a lifetime ago.

If you didn't keep mentioning them, they wouldn't have become a running
joke.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Feb 2023 14:26:37 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <tsqsst$2a69$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:03:41 on Sat, 18 Feb
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tslovm$3aeb0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:14 on Thu, 16 Feb
>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>>>>>> transaction?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>>>>>> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>>>>>> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>>>>>> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>>>>>> forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if you keep
>>>>> repeating it often enough it'll become true?
>>>>
>>>> It's what I was told by people in the card issuing community when I
>>>> queried it. I'm also familiar with various international money
>>>> laundering precautions (have you never looked at a form you've filled in
>>>> declaring what cash, and more recently also what other financial
>>>> instruments such as topped-up prepay cards, you have on you when
>>>> entering a country)?
>>>>
>>>>> There is no particular money-laundering risk of putting money on a card and
>>>>> then spending it abroad with a credit card than there would be with a debit
>>>>> card on a bank account,
>>>>
>>>> Apart from various rules which force banks to report unusual and foreign
>>>> cash transactions.
>>>>
>>>>> or a prepay card - and, newsflash, both debit cards and prepay cards
>>>>> are very much Things That Do Exist.
>>>>
>>>> Who do you think I don't know that? It's preposterous.
>>>>
>>>>> There's fuck all value in a money laundering scheme where the payment
>>>>> instrument used on both ends of the transaction is the same. It's not
>>>>> laundering at all, in fact.
>>>>
>>>> Of course it is. It allows cash to be transferred from one place to
>>>> another, without going over a bank counter (and hence potentially
>>>> triggering reporting mechanisms), or being in a person's wallet as they
>>>> go through customs.
>>>>
>>>> ObRail Newsflash: About a year ago it was reported that part of the E*
>>>> delays at Paris was the French Customs (now that we've Brexited) wanting
>>>> to do spot checks on how much cash people were taking out of the
>>>> country.
>>>>
>>>>> As you've been told before, the reason credit card companies don't
>>>>> like taking overpayment is because if they routinely hold deposits,
>>>>> that makes them a bank - and banks are subject to different and more
>>>>> onerous regulations than lenders (to take a trivial example, being
>>>>> required to be part of and fund a deposit protection scheme.)
>>>>
>>>> Are there credit card issuers who aren't banks in their spare time. Hold
>>>> the front page, I need to go tell Barclays about this.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed, as I have mentioned many times, even quite recently, my
>>>> once-favourite credit card, branded "Post Office", was issued by Bank of
>>>> Ireland. Are they not a Bank. Really?!?!?!
>>>
>>> I don’t see how overpaying my credit card can be a money laundering issue.
>>> I can take out 300 Euro in cash abroad and go 300 Euro into debit on my
>>> card.
>>
>> It's not about laundering trivial amounts like that: $3k+ is the sort of
>> figure they had in mind. And you probably don't have a cash-advance
>> limit for that.
>>
> Multiple repeated cash withdrawals with a high ongoing daily/weekly
> flow could be a further trigger for investigation anyway. Making
> payments to pet companies for goods which are later re-sold would be
> less noticeable but not inevitably a guaranteed cloak for the
> operation. The limits must have gone up in recent years as I have had
> no more requests for information since my bank queried the origins of
> the money from a small insurance policy some years ago.

I think the origin makes a difference. If it came from a reputable UK
financial institution, it probably doesn't get queried. For example, I have
a frequent but irregular flow of dividends paid into my bank, some well
into the thousands. They never get queried.

On Sun, 19 Feb 2023 16:29:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2023 14:26:37 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <tsqsst$2a69$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:03:41 on Sat, 18 Feb
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tslovm$3aeb0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:14 on Thu, 16 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>>>>>>> transaction?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>>>>>>> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>>>>>>> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>>>>>>> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>>>>>>> forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if you keep
>>>>>> repeating it often enough it'll become true?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's what I was told by people in the card issuing community when I
>>>>> queried it. I'm also familiar with various international money
>>>>> laundering precautions (have you never looked at a form you've filled in
>>>>> declaring what cash, and more recently also what other financial
>>>>> instruments such as topped-up prepay cards, you have on you when
>>>>> entering a country)?
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no particular money-laundering risk of putting money on a card and
>>>>>> then spending it abroad with a credit card than there would be with a debit
>>>>>> card on a bank account,
>>>>>
>>>>> Apart from various rules which force banks to report unusual and foreign
>>>>> cash transactions.
>>>>>
>>>>>> or a prepay card - and, newsflash, both debit cards and prepay cards
>>>>>> are very much Things That Do Exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who do you think I don't know that? It's preposterous.
>>>>>
>>>>>> There's fuck all value in a money laundering scheme where the payment
>>>>>> instrument used on both ends of the transaction is the same. It's not
>>>>>> laundering at all, in fact.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course it is. It allows cash to be transferred from one place to
>>>>> another, without going over a bank counter (and hence potentially
>>>>> triggering reporting mechanisms), or being in a person's wallet as they
>>>>> go through customs.
>>>>>
>>>>> ObRail Newsflash: About a year ago it was reported that part of the E*
>>>>> delays at Paris was the French Customs (now that we've Brexited) wanting
>>>>> to do spot checks on how much cash people were taking out of the
>>>>> country.
>>>>>
>>>>>> As you've been told before, the reason credit card companies don't
>>>>>> like taking overpayment is because if they routinely hold deposits,
>>>>>> that makes them a bank - and banks are subject to different and more
>>>>>> onerous regulations than lenders (to take a trivial example, being
>>>>>> required to be part of and fund a deposit protection scheme.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Are there credit card issuers who aren't banks in their spare time. Hold
>>>>> the front page, I need to go tell Barclays about this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed, as I have mentioned many times, even quite recently, my
>>>>> once-favourite credit card, branded "Post Office", was issued by Bank of
>>>>> Ireland. Are they not a Bank. Really?!?!?!
>>>>
>>>> I don?t see how overpaying my credit card can be a money laundering issue.
>>>> I can take out 300 Euro in cash abroad and go 300 Euro into debit on my
>>>> card.
>>>
>>> It's not about laundering trivial amounts like that: $3k+ is the sort of
>>> figure they had in mind. And you probably don't have a cash-advance
>>> limit for that.
>>>
>> Multiple repeated cash withdrawals with a high ongoing daily/weekly
>> flow could be a further trigger for investigation anyway. Making
>> payments to pet companies for goods which are later re-sold would be
>> less noticeable but not inevitably a guaranteed cloak for the
>> operation. The limits must have gone up in recent years as I have had
>> no more requests for information since my bank queried the origins of
>> the money from a small insurance policy some years ago.
>
>I think the origin makes a difference. If it came from a reputable UK
>financial institution, it probably doesn't get queried. For example, I have
>a frequent but irregular flow of dividends paid into my bank, some well
>into the thousands. They never get queried.
>
Those are inherently part of long-term processes not well-matched to
shifting dodgy money (unless you are very patient) plus they usually
come via a small number of registrars thus easily identified. Credit
card accounts OTOH can be topped up by anyone with the relevant paying
in details and are more easily part of a chain of laundering. I
haven't had queries yet about a fat cheque from my large and
well-known insurers for a written-off car but had it come from a
grandson of Fire Auto and Marine insurer then it might be different?

On 18/02/2023 14:29, Roland Perry wrote:
> Unfortunately those are both Euro conversions, which we already know the PO/Jaja card claims to treat specially. Because they consider Euro transactions as domestic (because they bank in Eire). And see below for the mid-rate fallacy.

Well you say "unfortunately" but for many of us visiting Europe its the Euro exchange rate that we are mostly interested in.

For completeness I just checked a Swedish and a Swiss transaction from earlier in 2022 and the Swedish one came in at almost the same as the central rate, but the Swiss one appears to have charged me 2% above the going rate. But when I was in Switzerland the pound was going up and down a bit because of Trussonomics, which may have affected things.

All the same, I'll continue using my Jaja card, despite its silly name and poor customer services, as it is cheaper than almost any other UK credit card in most of Europe.

--
Clive Page

In message <k5fj1gF8qanU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:35:44 on Sun, 19
Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>On 18/02/2023 14:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Unfortunately those are both Euro conversions, which we already know
>>the PO/Jaja card claims to treat specially. Because they consider Euro
>>transactions as domestic (because they bank in Eire). And see below
>>for the mid-rate fallacy.
>
>Well you say "unfortunately" but for many of us visiting Europe its the
>Euro exchange rate that we are mostly interested in.

The topic is "foreign transaction charges" in general, and there many
places which are foreign, other than the Euro-Zone (in particular the UK
for US cardholders) and many cards other than JaJa, which has the one
unusual feature (the interaction with Euro purchases).

>For completeness I just checked a Swedish and a Swiss transaction from
>earlier in 2022 and the Swedish one came in at almost the same as the
>central rate, but the Swiss one appears to have charged me 2% above the
>going rate.

Remember the difference between buy/central/sell rates.

>But when I was in Switzerland the pound was going up and down a bit
>because of Trussonomics, which may have affected things.
>
>All the same, I'll continue using my Jaja card, despite its silly name
>and poor customer services, as it is cheaper than almost any other UK
>credit card in most of Europe.

It would be, for the reason previously given, several times. And
specifically why I signed up for its predecessor.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tstip1$eihn$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:29:21 on Sun, 19 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tst8ha$dd9f$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:34:34 on Sun, 19 Feb
>> 2023, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
>>> On 19/02/2023 13:11, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <tsri59$51ls$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:06:33 on Sat, 18 Feb
>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 18 Feb 2023 at 12:35:37 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <tslovm$3aeb0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:14 on Thu, 16 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 16 Feb 2023 at 6:48:26 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <tsi530$2rcun$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:17 on Wed, 15 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Can you overpay your card, ie put it into credit before making a
>>>>>>>>> transaction?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It depends, some credit card banks allow it, others don't. The main
>>>>>>>> vector is they don't want to get dragged into money-laundering issues
>>>>>>>> where someone pumps their card, then dumps it somewhere potentially
>>>>>>>> overseas. One-size-fits-all-ism kicks in, so overpaying 10p is as
>>>>>>>> forbidden as overpaying £10k.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is of course a complete nonsense, but presumably you think if
>>>>>>> you keep repeating it often enough it'll become true?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's what I was told by people in the card issuing community when I
>>>>>> queried it. I'm also familiar with various international money
>>>>>> laundering precautions (have you never looked at a form you've filled in
>>>>>> declaring what cash, and more recently also what other financial
>>>>>> instruments such as topped-up prepay cards, you have on you when
>>>>>> entering a country)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Roland, I literally run a (fully regulated) payments processing
>>>>> business that processed a greater transaction value yesterday - and
>>>>> every other day - than Amstrad's entire annual revenues at its
>>>>> peak. I do not need to guess at AML regulations based on a customs
>>>>> form you once filled in.
>>
>>>> Perhaps you missed the bit about people I spoke to in the industry.
>>>>
>>>>> You really are an insufferable idiot.
>>
>>>> And you need some better manners.
>>>
>>> I think many of us would do better to criticise others' comments
>>> constructively, rather than making /ad hominem/ attacks on the poster.
>>
>> As someone who is overwhelmingly on the receiving end,
>
>And why do you think that is? Has it never occurred to you that there's a
>good reason for it?

Attracting criticism is OK, it's the infant school playground flavour
which rankles.

>> And that also goes for comments about the places people live or
>> employers they had a lifetime ago.
>
>If you didn't keep mentioning them, they wouldn't have become a running
>joke.

I only mention them when there's a relevant context, and by happenstance
I happen to live near a busy railway junction with lots to talk about.
--
Roland Perry

In message <k5fj1gF8qanU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:35:44 on Sun, 19
Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>On 18/02/2023 14:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Unfortunately those are both Euro conversions, which we already know
>>the PO/Jaja card claims to treat specially. Because they consider Euro
>>transactions as domestic (because they bank in Eire). And see below
>>for the mid-rate fallacy.
>
>Well you say "unfortunately" but for many of us visiting Europe its the
>Euro exchange rate that we are mostly interested in.
>
>For completeness I just checked a Swedish and a Swiss transaction from
>earlier in 2022 and the Swedish one came in at almost the same as the
>central rate, but the Swiss one appears to have charged me 2% above the
>going rate. But when I was in Switzerland the pound was going up and
>down a bit because of Trussonomics, which may have affected things.
>
>All the same, I'll continue using my Jaja card, despite its silly name
>and poor customer services, as it is cheaper than almost any other UK
>credit card in most of Europe.

Or maybe not. I received an email yesterday saying they are canceling
all (most?) of them. Consider yourself thrown under the bus.
--
Roland Perry

On 30/03/2023 05:45, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <k5fj1gF8qanU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:35:44 on Sun, 19 Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>> On 18/02/2023 14:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> Unfortunately those are both Euro conversions, which we already know the PO/Jaja card claims to treat specially. Because they consider Euro transactions as domestic (because they bank in Eire). And see below for the mid-rate fallacy.
>>
>> Well you say "unfortunately" but for many of us visiting Europe its the Euro exchange rate that we are mostly interested in.
>>
>> For completeness I just checked a Swedish and a Swiss transaction from earlier in 2022 and the Swedish one came in at almost the same as the central rate, but the Swiss one appears to have charged me 2% above the going rate.  But when I was in Switzerland the pound was going up and down a bit because of Trussonomics, which may have affected things.
>>
>> All the same, I'll continue using my Jaja card, despite its silly name and poor customer services, as it is cheaper than almost any other UK credit card in most of Europe.
>
> Or maybe not. I received an email yesterday saying they are canceling all (most?) of them. Consider yourself thrown under the bus.

That's poor. Is it possible that you didn't use it enough? I have been using mine at least a couple of times a month, just to ensure that they know I'm alive and kicking.

--
Clive Page

In message <k8ltatF2v2oU1@mid.individual.net>, at 17:57:01 on Thu, 30
Mar 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>On 30/03/2023 05:45, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <k5fj1gF8qanU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:35:44 on Sun, 19
>>Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>> On 18/02/2023 14:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> Unfortunately those are both Euro conversions, which we already
>>>>know the PO/Jaja card claims to treat specially. Because they
>>>>consider Euro transactions as domestic (because they bank in Eire).
>>>>And see below for the mid-rate fallacy.
>>>
>>> Well you say "unfortunately" but for many of us visiting Europe its
>>>the Euro exchange rate that we are mostly interested in.
>>>
>>> For completeness I just checked a Swedish and a Swiss transaction
>>>from earlier in 2022 and the Swedish one came in at almost the same
>>>as the central rate, but the Swiss one appears to have charged me 2%
>>>above the going rate.  But when I was in Switzerland the pound was
>>>going up and down a bit because of Trussonomics, which may have affected things.
>>>
>>> All the same, I'll continue using my Jaja card, despite its silly
>>>name and poor customer services, as it is cheaper than almost any
>>>other UK credit card in most of Europe.

>> Or maybe not. I received an email yesterday saying they are
>>canceling all (most?) of them. Consider yourself thrown under the bus.
>
>That's poor. Is it possible that you didn't use it enough?

I've been using it plenty enough for it not to be regarded as dormant.

>I have been using mine at least a couple of times a month, just to
>ensure that they know I'm alive and kicking.

I have cards which I've not used for more than a year, and they don't
complain. I know Jaja being a new issuer might be slightly more jumpy
bout such things, but I've been using it frequently for pretty much all
my non-routine contactless expenditure the last six months.

Not least because I've been doing a study to see how long it takes for
such transactions to filter through the system, and what timestamps they
have.

For example I paid a parking meter around lunchtime on Tuesday and it's
come through as 11.59pm, and "posting date" Wednesday. On the other hand
an almost identical parking meter last week is timed to the minute I
made the transaction.

Other phantom midnights include Aldi, Wilko and TFL, although we know
the latter don't charge until they know what the day's travel comes to,
and whether or not to daily-cap. They then apparently put the charge
through at midnight the day after (not least because the capping period
doesn't end until 04:29 that following day)

--
Roland Perry