Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 12/03/2023 09:41, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:54:15 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:35:57 +0000
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 11/03/2023 16:28, Bob wrote:
>>>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
>>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling
>>>>>>>>>>>> Britain
>>>>>>>>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hopefully!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went independent
>>>>>>> its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or not as
>>>>>>> great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little britain which
>>>>>>> is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>>>>> everywhere
>>>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>>>> mean the locals just got up and left.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>>>>
>>> I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.
>>
>> How long do you have to live somewhere before you’re a local rather than an
>> immigrant?
>
> In Wales never.

What about the kids?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 12/03/2023 17:08, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 02/03/2023 13:32, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>> Am 01.03.2023 um 20:30 schrieb Mike Humphrey:
>>>>> On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 14:56:20 +0000, NY wrote:
>>>>>> I'm sure in the 1800s and 1900s it was quite common for station staff at
>>>>>> small stations to have to divide their time between platform duties and
>>>>>> signalling duties (eg collecting and returning the *correct* tablet to
>>>>>> the driver). But it's not something you expect in the 21st century.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't be bothered to go and get my copy of "Red for Danger", but I
>>>>> think it was quite early that signalling became distinct from the station
>>>>> duties. As part of the push for interlocking, it was required that all
>>>>> the signal levers at a station were in the same place. This led to the
>>>>> classic signal box with the lever frame upstairs, as it would be
>>>>> difficult to get a full view of the station from platform level.
>>>>
>>>> This might be where the situation in UK diverged from mainland Europe.
>>>> In Germany, it is typical for smallish stations (e.g. Neckargemünd, a
>>>> simple junction - 4 tracks - with no additional freight facilities) that
>>>> the signal box is at platform level.
>>>>
>>>> Only larger stations with plenty of freight tracks had the need for an
>>>> 'upstairs' signal box.
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are still a few British signal boxes on platforms, though probably
>>> not for much longer. eg
>>> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Haslemere_signal_box.jpg> will
>>> go out of service later this year when the Portsmouth Direct line is
>>> switched to Basingstoke box.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> About 10 years I took my then 14 year old Nephew to visit the Chalk pits
>> museum at Amberley and the signaller noticing his interest as he peered
>> through the window invited us into the small “box” which was/is integrated
>> far more into the station than most even being under the canopy.
>> < https://www.flickr.com/photos/bods/4413532177>
>>
>> Signalman gave the nephew a good explanation of what did what and when it
>> was done
>> and then supervised him while he pulled the relevant levers to clear a
>> train through.
>> The interior was quite compact.
>> < https://www.flickr.com/photos/67716429@N06/6786477978>
>
> Google Street View from 10 months ago seems to suggest that Helsby Junction
> is still there, at least in the flesh. Does it still control anything?
> ISTR it being rebuilt; at least at one point the brickwork of the
> understory was wildly distorted and the next time I went it wasn’t. It’s
> nearly 25 years since I was last there, though.
>

Horrified to work out I haven't been there since 1989! I feel a trip
coming on. Mind you it's about 3 hours by train from here.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 12/03/2023 17:08, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Google Street View from 10 months ago seems to suggest that Helsby Junction
> is still there, at least in the flesh. Does it still control anything?
> ISTR it being rebuilt; at least at one point the brickwork of the
> understory was wildly distorted and the next time I went it wasn’t. It’s
> nearly 25 years since I was last there, though.

Still controls the junction, still had semaphores when I went through a
couple of months ago. Frodsham Junction box is also still in use (there
was a car parked by it when I was last at the car-wash...) although the
semaphores are no more, but the junction onto the Halton Curve is now in
regular use for Chester to Liverpool trains.
--
Dave,
Frodsham

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>everywhere
>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>
>>Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>
> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
> island ergo its natives are British.

There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of the United
Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland. Mind you, many
people seem to use "Great Britain" and "United Kingdom" interchangeably,
forgetting the one is Eng, Scot, Wales and the other is Eng, Scot, Wales,
NI. Did cars from Northern Ireland carry an oval GB sticker or (more
recently) have GB on the blue sidebar of the EU-standard number plates. Or
did they have separate letters "NI"?

Dave Jackson <dave@dave-jackson.org.uk> wrote:
> On 12/03/2023 17:08, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Google Street View from 10 months ago seems to suggest that Helsby Junction
>> is still there, at least in the flesh. Does it still control anything?
>> ISTR it being rebuilt; at least at one point the brickwork of the
>> understory was wildly distorted and the next time I went it wasn’t. It’s
>> nearly 25 years since I was last there, though.
>
> Still controls the junction, still had semaphores when I went through a
> couple of months ago. Frodsham Junction box is also still in use (there
> was a car parked by it when I was last at the car-wash...) although the
> semaphores are no more, but the junction onto the Halton Curve is now in
> regular use for Chester to Liverpool trains.

Excellent - thank you!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
> news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>> everywhere
>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>
>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>
>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>> island ergo its natives are British.
>
> There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of the United
> Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland. Mind you, many
> people seem to use "Great Britain" and "United Kingdom" interchangeably,
> forgetting the one is Eng, Scot, Wales and the other is Eng, Scot, Wales,
> NI. Did cars from Northern Ireland carry an oval GB sticker or (more
> recently) have GB on the blue sidebar of the EU-standard number plates. Or
> did they have separate letters "NI"?

Until the days of BoJo the Evil Clown the international car registration
letters for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland were
GB, as is the ISO 3166 two-letter abbreviation, which has been a source of
tension in some quarters. They are now UK, which matches the DNS top level
domain, and is also a source of tension in some quarters.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 07:35:18 +0000
>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:54:15 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>wrote:
>>>>Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>>>mean the locals just got up and left.
>>>
>>>Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>>>
>>I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.
>
>Really? Visit any high street in an arc from wood green through tottenham
>to walthamstow and have a listen to how often you hear english spoken. And if
>you do it'll probably be in a foreign accent and when the accent is british
>it'll probably be from an afro caribbean or asian. The majority of white
>londoners legged it long ago north, east and west.
>
What is a "British accent" ?
What is a "Londoner" ?

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:15:08 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>everywhere
>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>
>>>Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>
>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>> island ergo its natives are British.
>
>There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of the United
>Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland.
>
UKish ? (kepe it short, keep it simple).

>Mind you, many
>people seem to use "Great Britain" and "United Kingdom" interchangeably,
>forgetting the one is Eng, Scot, Wales and the other is Eng, Scot, Wales,
>NI. Did cars from Northern Ireland carry an oval GB sticker or (more
>recently) have GB on the blue sidebar of the EU-standard number plates. Or
>did they have separate letters "NI"?

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 23:07:47 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>> news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>> everywhere
>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>
>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>
>>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>>> island ergo its natives are British.
>>
>> There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of the United
>> Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland. Mind you, many
>> people seem to use "Great Britain" and "United Kingdom" interchangeably,
>> forgetting the one is Eng, Scot, Wales and the other is Eng, Scot, Wales,
>> NI. Did cars from Northern Ireland carry an oval GB sticker or (more
>> recently) have GB on the blue sidebar of the EU-standard number plates. Or
>> did they have separate letters "NI"?
>
>Until the days of BoJo the Evil Clown the international car registration
>letters for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland were
>GB
>
Anecdotally due to the political incompetence of the UK rep on the
relevant committee who would probably have settled on "E" if Spain had
not claimed it first.

>as is the ISO 3166 two-letter abbreviation, which has been a source of
>tension in some quarters. They are now UK, which matches the DNS top level
>domain, and is also a source of tension in some quarters.
>
>Sam

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:30:33 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:

>On 12/03/2023 16:07, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 07:33:34 +0000
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:16:46 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling Britain
>>>>>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hopefully!
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….
>>>>
>>>> Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went independent
>>>> its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or not as
>>>> great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little britain which
>>>> is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.
>>>>
>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is everywhere
>>>
>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>
>>> Unless someone is using the term to describe the area coming under the
>>> rule of a government based in Westminster. Your "British" is not
>>> inevitably derived from the same context being applied by another. The
>>> group of islands could lose that description if anyone ever comes up
>>> with a sensible alternative but there has been a lack of success so
>>> far.
>>
>> I'm sure the Iberian Peninsula could be renamed too.
>
>That would reduce ambiguity.
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Iberia>
>
As would describing Shqipëria by its own name to prevent confusion
with Alba.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 00:21:55 +0000, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 07:35:18 +0000
>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:54:15 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>wrote:
>>>>>Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>>>>mean the locals just got up and left.
>>>>
>>>>Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>>>>
>>>I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.
>>
>>Really? Visit any high street in an arc from wood green through tottenham
>>to walthamstow and have a listen to how often you hear english spoken. And if
>>you do it'll probably be in a foreign accent and when the accent is british
>>it'll probably be from an afro caribbean or asian. The majority of white
>>londoners legged it long ago north, east and west.
>>

>What is a "Londoner" ?

Sumwon who thinks of London wherever they go.... a bit Thame but
lyrics can't lie.

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:15:08 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>everywhere
>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>
>>>Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>
>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>> island ergo its natives are British.
>
>There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of the United
>Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland.

A UKGBNI'er... works for all of us in amateur radio...

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 18:18:03 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:15:08 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>>news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>>everywhere
>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>
>>>>Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>>all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>>people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>
>>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>>> island ergo its natives are British.
>>
>>There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of the United
>>Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland.
>
>A UKGBNI'er... works for all of us in amateur radio...
>
Even those still using Morse?

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 01:38:09 +0000, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 18:18:03 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:15:08 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>>>news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>>>everywhere
>>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>>
>>>>>Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>>>all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>>>people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>>>> island ergo its natives are British.
>>>
>>>There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of the United
>>>Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland.
>>
>>A UKGBNI'er... works for all of us in amateur radio...
>>
>Even those still using Morse?

Inspecting my records, even those in Oxford.

After a cold winter, I do believe thaw is finally here.

Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:15:08 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>> news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>> everywhere
>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>
>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>
>>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>>> island ergo its natives are British.
>>
>> There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of the United
>> Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland.
>
> A UKGBNI'er... works for all of us in amateur radio...

I notice that the Titan A321neo, leased by the UK government, was
re-registered as G-GBNI. It's just flown the PM's delegation from Stansted
to San Diego, with a refuelling stop in Dulles. I wonder why they didn't
use the RAF Voyager A330 that could have done it non-stop, in more comfort?

The A321 previously flew from Orly to Stansted on the 10th evening. I
wonder if that was conveying the PM's delegation back from the meetings
with Macron? They went out by Eurostar, but perhaps returned by air?

In message <tukfss$32b29$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:17:34 on Sun, 12 Mar
2023, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Britain  'England' and then go on themselves to call the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>USA 'America' or the  Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the
>>>>>>>>>>>>UK Britain.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be
>>>>>>>>>British….
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went
>>>>>>>>independent its inhabitants would still be british whether they
>>>>>>>>liked it or not as great britain is this island we're on. As
>>>>>>>>opposed to little britain which is Brittany across the channel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british
>>>>>>>>isles  everywhere  the native britons used to live which
>>>>>>>>includes the island of ireland.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want
>>>>>>>to get all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only
>>>>>>>actually British people, the Brittons no longer live in the
>>>>>>>rest of the British Isles.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>>>>> mean the locals just got up and left.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>>>>>
>>>> I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.
>>>
>>> How long do you have to live somewhere before you’re a local
>>>rather than an immigrant?

>> It used to be that one had to be second generation *even if British*
>>when moving somewhere to be considered a local.

>> AKA: "Did you go to the local primary school".
>> Three years does it in most places now (whatever age and wherever
>>you've come from).
>
>Nope, been here almost 20 years and still a "soothmoother" (someone who
>comes to Shetland on the ferry through the south mouth of Lerwick
>Harbour).

It's not a member of the set "most places" then, is it?
--
Roland Perry

In message <tuqs0i57rlukpmt110sdbb6ffrikkh35ge@4ax.com>, at 00:21:55 on
Mon, 13 Mar 2023, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:

>>>>>Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>>>>mean the locals just got up and left.
>>>>
>>>>Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>>>>
>>>I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.
>>
>>Really? Visit any high street in an arc from wood green through tottenham
>>to walthamstow and have a listen to how often you hear english spoken. And if
>>you do it'll probably be in a foreign accent and when the accent is british
>>it'll probably be from an afro caribbean or asian. The majority of white
>>londoners legged it long ago north, east and west.
>>
>What is a "British accent" ?
>What is a "Londoner" ?

Someone born within, or culturally assimilated by, the North/South
Circular, perhaps.

Not the M25, I think.

There was something quite particular about Brentwood, though. One stop
before the end of the Elizabeth Line and the Oyster zones, these days;
just outside the M25.

People who lived in London regarded it as the "first country town along
A12", and Essex people regarded it as the "First bit of London you get
to along the A12". Back in the day it had one London Transport Red Bus
service, and one Green Line bus. The High Street was less than two miles
from the edge of the London Borough of Havering (formerly Romford,
Essex).
--
Roland Perry

In message <tulm03$3a2cs$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:07:47 on Sun, 12 Mar
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>> news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>> everywhere
>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>
>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>
>>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>>> island ergo its natives are British.
>>
>> There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of the United
>> Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland. Mind you, many
>> people seem to use "Great Britain" and "United Kingdom" interchangeably,
>> forgetting the one is Eng, Scot, Wales and the other is Eng, Scot, Wales,
>> NI. Did cars from Northern Ireland carry an oval GB sticker or (more
>> recently) have GB on the blue sidebar of the EU-standard number plates. Or
>> did they have separate letters "NI"?
>
>Until the days of BoJo the Evil Clown the international car registration
>letters for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland were
>GB, as is the ISO 3166 two-letter abbreviation, which has been a source of
>tension in some quarters. They are now UK, which matches the DNS top level
>domain, and is also a source of tension in some quarters.

As of course is (a source of tension) the anomaly that the ccTLD is .uk,
which by rights should have been reserved for Ukraine. But being early
adopters we acquired squatters rights; as did Jersey, Guernsey and the
Isle of Man, who would struggle profoundly to be allocated their own
ccTLD today.

The ISO people (several of whom I worked with closely on these matters)
believe the codes should be mnemonic of geographical feature, so .us
(which *is* the ISO code, but rarely used as a ccTLD) is also anomalous
because there are other "United States" (viz Mexico).

UAE just scrapes in under the wire, because while "United Emirates" is a
generic, the "A" is Arab. [There are seven members, and it used to be
called "The Trucial States"; and a bit like Holland/Netherlands the
(only) member most people have heard of is Dubai].

Egypt is an interesting country, because depending on the context it can
claim to be in Africa, Asia or the Middle East. Also MEDA, according to
the EU. Thus for example the recent COP27 could tick a box as being held
in Asia (and actually on the correct side of the Suez Canal), or Africa,
depending on which the organisers were most struggling to comply with.

Looking a the earlier locations, I'm guessing they needed an "Africa".
--
Roland Perry

In message <tum1on$3dlpg$5@dont-email.me>, at 02:28:39 on Mon, 13 Mar
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:15:08 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>>> news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>>> everywhere
>>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>>>> island ergo its natives are British.
>>>
>>> There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of
>>>the United
>>> Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland.
>>
>> A UKGBNI'er... works for all of us in amateur radio...
>
>I notice that the Titan A321neo, leased by the UK government, was
>re-registered as G-GBNI. It's just flown the PM's delegation from Stansted
>to San Diego, with a refuelling stop in Dulles. I wonder why they didn't
>use the RAF Voyager A330 that could have done it non-stop, in more comfort?
>
>The A321 previously flew from Orly to Stansted on the 10th evening. I
>wonder if that was conveying the PM's delegation back from the meetings
>with Macron? They went out by Eurostar, but perhaps returned by air?

Cleverly multi-mode?
--
Roland Perry

In message <ps0t0i1qgg7nfmlsd1t749bfn28tvbvcic@4ax.com>, at 19:07:05 on
Sun, 12 Mar 2023, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 01:38:09 +0000, Charles Ellson
><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 18:18:03 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:15:08 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>>>>everywhere
>>>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>>>>all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>>>>people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>>>>> island ergo its natives are British.
>>>>
>>>>There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of
>>>>the United
>>>>Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland.
>>>
>>>A UKGBNI'er... works for all of us in amateur radio...
>>>
>>Even those still using Morse?
>
>Inspecting my records, even those in Oxford.
>
>After a cold winter, I do believe thaw is finally here.

I'll endeavour to keep this subthread running.
--
Roland Perry

On 13.03.23 00:07, Sam Wilson wrote:
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>> news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>> everywhere
>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>
>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>
>>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>>> island ergo its natives are British.
>>
>> There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of the United
>> Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland. Mind you, many
>> people seem to use "Great Britain" and "United Kingdom" interchangeably,
>> forgetting the one is Eng, Scot, Wales and the other is Eng, Scot, Wales,
>> NI. Did cars from Northern Ireland carry an oval GB sticker or (more
>> recently) have GB on the blue sidebar of the EU-standard number plates. Or
>> did they have separate letters "NI"?
>
> Until the days of BoJo the Evil Clown the international car registration
> letters for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland were
> GB, as is the ISO 3166 two-letter abbreviation, which has been a source of
> tension in some quarters. They are now UK, which matches the DNS top level
> domain, and is also a source of tension in some quarters.

AIUI there was some dispute with Ukraine about the use of the letters UK
for certain purposes, so the compromise was for them to use UA and us to
use GB.

Robin

On 12.03.23 17:10, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 07:35:18 +0000
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:54:15 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> wrote:
>>>> Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>>> mean the locals just got up and left.
>>>
>>> Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>>>
>> I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.
>
> Really? Visit any high street in an arc from wood green through tottenham
> to walthamstow and have a listen to how often you hear english spoken. And if
> you do it'll probably be in a foreign accent and when the accent is british
> it'll probably be from an afro caribbean or asian. The majority of white
> londoners legged it long ago north, east and west.

This is something that is changing quite rapidly right now. A change in
government policy a few years ago that removed the obligation on
boroughs to provide housing within the borough for people from the
borough who need housing assistance. The result is the younger
generation starting perhaps 15 years ago, are all now being shipped out
of places like Hackney, Bethnal Green and Tottenham to places like
Southend. Similarly in SE London people are being shipped out to places
like the Medway towns.

In the same way that places like Notting Hill and Brixton that were in
the past associated with Carribean immigrant communities are now all
well to middle class suburbs, the same is going to happen to these places.

Robin

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 09:45:22 +0100
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 13.03.23 00:07, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>>> news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>>> everywhere
>>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>>>> island ergo its natives are British.
>>>
>>> There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of the United
>
>>> Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland. Mind you, many
>>> people seem to use "Great Britain" and "United Kingdom" interchangeably,
>>> forgetting the one is Eng, Scot, Wales and the other is Eng, Scot, Wales,
>>> NI. Did cars from Northern Ireland carry an oval GB sticker or (more
>>> recently) have GB on the blue sidebar of the EU-standard number plates. Or
>>> did they have separate letters "NI"?
>>
>> Until the days of BoJo the Evil Clown the international car registration
>> letters for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland were
>> GB, as is the ISO 3166 two-letter abbreviation, which has been a source of
>> tension in some quarters. They are now UK, which matches the DNS top level
>> domain, and is also a source of tension in some quarters.
>
>AIUI there was some dispute with Ukraine about the use of the letters UK
>for certain purposes, so the compromise was for them to use UA and us to
>use GB.

Given they use the cyrillic alphabet why didn't ukraine just use yk?

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 00:21:55 +0000
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 07:35:18 +0000
>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:54:15 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>wrote:
>>>>>Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>>>>mean the locals just got up and left.
>>>>
>>>>Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>>>>
>>>I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.
>>
>>Really? Visit any high street in an arc from wood green through tottenham
>>to walthamstow and have a listen to how often you hear english spoken. And if
>>you do it'll probably be in a foreign accent and when the accent is british
>>it'll probably be from an afro caribbean or asian. The majority of white
>>londoners legged it long ago north, east and west.
>>
>What is a "British accent" ?

Not a turkish or albanian one.

>What is a "Londoner" ?

Whats a scotsman, true or otherwise?

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 00:26:56 +0000
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 23:07:47 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>>> news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>>> everywhere
>>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>>>> island ergo its natives are British.
>>>
>>> There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of the
>United
>>> Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland. Mind you, many
>
>>> people seem to use "Great Britain" and "United Kingdom" interchangeably,
>>> forgetting the one is Eng, Scot, Wales and the other is Eng, Scot, Wales,
>>> NI. Did cars from Northern Ireland carry an oval GB sticker or (more
>>> recently) have GB on the blue sidebar of the EU-standard number plates. Or
>>> did they have separate letters "NI"?
>>
>>Until the days of BoJo the Evil Clown the international car registration
>>letters for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland were
>>GB
>>
>Anecdotally due to the political incompetence of the UK rep on the
>relevant committee who would probably have settled on "E" if Spain had
>not claimed it first.

To be fair, this was one of boris' few sensible decisions as it rolls in
northern ireland who won't have to have NI stickers now, though arguably it
also covers the channel islands and IoM too.