In message <tu0f8i$12stg$5@dont-email.me>, at 22:04:02 on Sat, 4 Mar
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>> On 04/03/2023 18:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>>>>>> Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at
>>>>>>>>>night, to tell that he has been routed onto the wrong track
>>>>>>>>>(eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>>course what "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>>>>>> wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>>>>>> signalling system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That may well be the case, but the question was whether the driver would
>>>>>> be *aware* he was running wrong line.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously
>>>>
>>>> And of course if bidirectional running was common then there is no a priori
>>>> wrong line.
>>>
>>> There will still usually be a right line and a wrong line, IMX. The only
>>> places with no defined 'normal' direction for multiple lines are station
>>> throats eg Paddington and Cardiff.
>>
>> I think the point is that it may only be "wrong" in railway jargon, not
>> in the layman's sense of "incorrect". It may (or may not) be so common
>> for trains to run wrong line at that point that a driver would accept
>> either route without question.
>
>I don't know if we'll ever hear, but I wonder why the express passenger
>train was routed wrong line at all? Obviously whoever did it didn't know
>about the freight train, but even without it, why deliberately route it
>wrong line? Was it, perhaps, due to overtake a slow train?

Remember the reporting of the "12 minutes" upthread, where the person
responsible realised he'd made a mistake, but had no way to warn the
trains? I suspect he then turned himself in to the authorities to avoid
getting lynched.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ttvtbn$1140t$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:58:31 on Sat, 4 Mar
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>
>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>
>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>
>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>
>Irrelevant as to knowing which track he’s on, and seeing the track(s)
>illuminated in front would be even more obvious than seeing the OHLE.
>
>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if he was
>>> expecting to).
>>
>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>> track.
>
>See following discussion about route knowledge, bi-di working and which
>line is right or wrong.

We are well past the point that we should using terms like
"correct/incorrect" to distinguish that situation from bi-directional
working where the "up/down" is dynamic.
--
Roland Perry

In message <-vGdnU5O5tfnVp75nZ2dnZfqnPQAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
22:51:36 on Sat, 4 Mar 2023, NY <me@privacy.net> remarked:
>On 04/03/2023 11:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>>side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a
>>train driver for more than week.
>
>Assuming that your train's headlights show enough of the opposite track
>for you to tell which track you were on, when it's dark outside.

It doesn't really matter how dark it is outside, I'm sure the driver can
see the OHL masts and tell whether the ones on the left or right are
closer.

>But I'm sure they would do. The problem is if that it not unusual:
>there maybe routes where routes are signalled bidirectionally and you
>may be switched to either track. In the UK, you'd expect "feathers" to
>show that you were being switched to the one that was less normal, but
>maybe other countries' signalling is less informative.

Aren't feathers are more for being routed off the main line at a
junction, onto a branch line.
--
Roland Perry

On 05/03/2023 07:29, Roland Perry wrote:
> We are well past the point that we should using terms like
> "correct/incorrect" to distinguish that situation from bi-directional
> working where the "up/down" is dynamic.

But I would imagine in most cases there is a "normal" line and an
"exceptional" line, unless there really *are* cases where there is a
roughly equal chance of being routed onto one line or the other. And
that the "normal" line is the one which is named for the direction you
are travelling in (eg the "up" line for a train which is going towards
London) and the "exceptional" one is the one named for the opposite
direction.

Recliner explained on 04/03/2023 :
> I don't
> know if any other countries go as far as the UK in demanding that drivers
> know a route in detail *before* they start driving it.
>
At least Belgium does. Drivers need to study the routes before being
allowed to drive them, and if they haven't driven them often enough,
their route knowledge has to be refreshed. It is a process that is
taken very seriously. Driving by observing signals only is feasible
for a passenger train that does not stop anywhere en route, but for a
heavy goods train, or an all-stops passenger train, route knowledge
remains essential. You need to know the gradients, where to start/stop
accelerating/breaking, where to stop you train on the platform (to
avoid keeping down the level crossing just behind you, for example),
the specific rail adhesion conditions, etc.

--
Marc Van Dyck

In message <BsCcnY7LadZOxJn5nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
08:58:58 on Sun, 5 Mar 2023, NY <me@privacy.net> remarked:

>On 05/03/2023 07:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>> We are well past the point that we should using terms like
>>"correct/incorrect" to distinguish that situation from bi-directional
>>working where the "up/down" is dynamic.
>
>But I would imagine in most cases there is a "normal" line and an
>"exceptional" line, unless there really *are* cases where there is a
>roughly equal chance of being routed onto one line or the other. And
>that the "normal" line is the one which is named for the direction you
>are travelling in (eg the "up" line for a train which is going towards
>London) and the "exceptional" one is the one named for the opposite
>direction.

What do you call "roughly equal"? If we were to discover that about half
the Ely-Norwich trains travel up to Ely North on the so-called
"Up-London" line, would that be sufficient?

[It's not a huge stretch of the imagination, because they overwhelmingly
reverse in a platform on the "Up" side of the station, and when they
get to Ely north "turn right" for Shippey Hill etc].

And if it was a quarter, or even three quarters...
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 5 Mar 2023 07:16:45 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <tu0f8i$12stg$5@dont-email.me>, at 22:04:02 on Sat, 4 Mar
>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>> On 04/03/2023 18:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>>>>>>> Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at
>>>>>>>>>>night, to tell that he has been routed onto the wrong track
>>>>>>>>>>(eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>>>course what "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>>>>>>> wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>>>>>>> signalling system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That may well be the case, but the question was whether the driver would
>>>>>>> be *aware* he was running wrong line.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Obviously
>>>>>
>>>>> And of course if bidirectional running was common then there is no a priori
>>>>> wrong line.
>>>>
>>>> There will still usually be a right line and a wrong line, IMX. The only
>>>> places with no defined 'normal' direction for multiple lines are station
>>>> throats eg Paddington and Cardiff.
>>>
>>> I think the point is that it may only be "wrong" in railway jargon, not
>>> in the layman's sense of "incorrect". It may (or may not) be so common
>>> for trains to run wrong line at that point that a driver would accept
>>> either route without question.
>>
>>I don't know if we'll ever hear, but I wonder why the express passenger
>>train was routed wrong line at all? Obviously whoever did it didn't know
>>about the freight train, but even without it, why deliberately route it
>>wrong line? Was it, perhaps, due to overtake a slow train?
>
>Remember the reporting of the "12 minutes" upthread, where the person
>responsible realised he'd made a mistake, but had no way to warn the
>trains? I suspect he then turned himself in to the authorities to avoid
>getting lynched.

I wonder what caused him to realise his error after 12 minutes? Perhaps it's when he discovered that there was a freight
train on the same line?

On Sun, 5 Mar 2023 07:22:02 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <tu0hhc$134qc$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:42:52 on Sat, 4 Mar
>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>> On 04/03/2023 18:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>>>>>>> Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at
>>>>>>>>>>night, to tell
>>>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>>>course what
>>>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>>>>>>> wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>>>>>>> signalling system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That may well be the case, but the question was whether the driver would
>>>>>>> be *aware* he was running wrong line.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Obviously
>>>>>
>>>>> And of course if bidirectional running was common then there is no a priori
>>>>> wrong line.
>>>>
>>>> There will still usually be a right line and a wrong line, IMX. The only
>>>> places with no defined 'normal' direction for multiple lines are station
>>>> throats eg Paddington and Cardiff.
>>>
>>> I think the point is that it may only be "wrong" in railway jargon, not
>>> in the layman's sense of "incorrect". It may (or may not) be so common
>>> for trains to run wrong line at that point that a driver would accept
>>> either route without question.
>>
>>Yes, what I mean is that for bidirectionally-worked double track, there
>>will be a normal direction of travel for each track, rather than trains
>>using either line randomly. That's entirely separate from whether local
>>rules and practice mean that crews will accept being routed onto the
>>bidirectional track in the 'not-normal' direction without questioning it,
>>particularly at night when there may be engineering work for example.
>
>What's "abnormal" though. As well as the overtaking I described a few
>moments ago, I've written here recently about the practice for pairs of
>trains heading from Ely to Norwich or Peterborough to travel side by
>side up as far as Ely North Junction.

We have no idea of the extent to which the operations of the Greek railway system are modelled on Ely.

>
>I haven't studied them closely enough to know if they use the "up" line
>to access Norwich, even they don't absolutely need to (which observably
>happens several times a day), but I suppose we could look at the real
>time signaling maps.

"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote in message
news:tVz8mvuL5GBkFAXk@perry.uk...
> In message <BsCcnY7LadZOxJn5nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
> 08:58:58 on Sun, 5 Mar 2023, NY <me@privacy.net> remarked:
>
>>On 05/03/2023 07:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> We are well past the point that we should using terms like
>>> "correct/incorrect" to distinguish that situation from bi-directional
>>> working where the "up/down" is dynamic.
>>
>>But I would imagine in most cases there is a "normal" line and an
>>"exceptional" line, unless there really *are* cases where there is a
>>roughly equal chance of being routed onto one line or the other. And that
>>the "normal" line is the one which is named for the direction you are
>>travelling in (eg the "up" line for a train which is going towards London)
>>and the "exceptional" one is the one named for the opposite direction.
>
> What do you call "roughly equal"? If we were to discover that about half
> the Ely-Norwich trains travel up to Ely North on the so-called "Up-London"
> line, would that be sufficient?
>
> [It's not a huge stretch of the imagination, because they overwhelmingly
> reverse in a platform on the "Up" side of the station, and when they
> get to Ely north "turn right" for Shippey Hill etc].
>
> And if it was a quarter, or even three quarters...

If "about half" the trains run "wrong line" (in the sense that "up" is
normally on the left where tracks are not bi-directional) then a driver will
not think it is of concern to be routed onto the "wrong" line, and will not
take any precautions or alert anyone - apart from negotiating the points in
the station throat at a reduced speed, he will then trust that the signaller
knows what he is doing and will then drive at line speed (which may be lower
on one track than the other).

If, on the other hand, the line is not bi-directional, or if running on the
"wrong" track is very rare, he may contact the signaller to check "are you
sure?", or expect to have been briefed beforehand.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>> On 04/03/2023 18:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>>>>>> Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>>>>>> wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>>>>>> signalling system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That may well be the case, but the question was whether the driver would
>>>>>> be *aware* he was running wrong line.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously
>>>>
>>>> And of course if bidirectional running was common then there is no a priori
>>>> wrong line.
>>>
>>> There will still usually be a right line and a wrong line, IMX. The only
>>> places with no defined 'normal' direction for multiple lines are station
>>> throats eg Paddington and Cardiff.
>>
>> I think the point is that it may only be "wrong" in railway jargon, not
>> in the layman's sense of "incorrect". It may (or may not) be so common
>> for trains to run wrong line at that point that a driver would accept
>> either route without question.
>>
>
> Yes, what I mean is that for bidirectionally-worked double track, there
> will be a normal direction of travel for each track, rather than trains
> using either line randomly. That's entirely separate from whether local
> rules and practice mean that crews will accept being routed onto the
> bidirectional track in the 'not-normal' direction without questioning it,
> particularly at night when there may be engineering work for example.

Thank you. I imagine it would also be customary for particular workings to
be routed onto a specific track rather than for it to be random.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>> On 04/03/2023 18:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>>>>>>> Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>>>>>>> wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>>>>>>> signalling system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That may well be the case, but the question was whether the driver would
>>>>>>> be *aware* he was running wrong line.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Obviously
>>>>>
>>>>> And of course if bidirectional running was common then there is no a priori
>>>>> wrong line.
>>>>
>>>> There will still usually be a right line and a wrong line, IMX. The only
>>>> places with no defined 'normal' direction for multiple lines are station
>>>> throats eg Paddington and Cardiff.
>>>
>>> I think the point is that it may only be "wrong" in railway jargon, not
>>> in the layman's sense of "incorrect". It may (or may not) be so common
>>> for trains to run wrong line at that point that a driver would accept
>>> either route without question.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, what I mean is that for bidirectionally-worked double track, there
>> will be a normal direction of travel for each track, rather than trains
>> using either line randomly. That's entirely separate from whether local
>> rules and practice mean that crews will accept being routed onto the
>> bidirectional track in the 'not-normal' direction without questioning it,
>> particularly at night when there may be engineering work for example.
>
> Thank you. I imagine it would also be customary for particular workings to
> be routed onto a specific track rather than for it to be random.
>

I've been routed onto the bi-directional aka reversible (in unexpected
locations [1]) three times in the past two years - once quite recently for
reasons unknown, another time because there had been a failure of the OLE
supply and I had to pass a stranded 387 [2], and another time because I had
to overtake another train (a very short length of bi-di there, just through
an intermediate station) in circumstances which I don't quite recall, but
there was disruption and out-of-course running going on. Only in the second
scenario had I been appraised of what was going to occur, and that was only
as an aside from the signaller during the conversation about needing to
change to diesel mode following the power failure.

[1] certain locations it’s quite common - for example to access platforms
1/2 at Bristol Parkway in the up direction, you have to cross to the
reversible just after Filton or Patchway, depending where you're
approaching from. Trains from Temple Meads to St Philips Marsh can only use
the down line; on the occasions when a down train needs to access temple
meads at the same time, it'll run reversible from Feeder Bridge Jn/North
Somerset Jn to Bristol East Jn.

[2] ironically the power was restored in the meantime, and having overtaken
the stationary 387 it then overtook me back, before the end of that
bidirectional section.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <tu2kdl$1dal3$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:44:20 on Sun, 5 Mar
2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote in message
>news:tVz8mvuL5GBkFAXk@perry.uk...
>> In message <BsCcnY7LadZOxJn5nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>08:58:58 on Sun, 5 Mar 2023, NY <me@privacy.net> remarked:
>>
>>>On 05/03/2023 07:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> We are well past the point that we should using terms like
>>>>"correct/incorrect" to distinguish that situation from
>>>>bi-directional working where the "up/down" is dynamic.
>>>
>>>But I would imagine in most cases there is a "normal" line and an
>>>"exceptional" line, unless there really *are* cases where there is a
>>>roughly equal chance of being routed onto one line or the other. And
>>>that the "normal" line is the one which is named for the direction
>>>you are travelling in (eg the "up" line for a train which is going
>>>towards London) and the "exceptional" one is the one named for the
>>>opposite direction.
>>
>> What do you call "roughly equal"? If we were to discover that about
>>half the Ely-Norwich trains travel up to Ely North on the so-called
>>"Up-London" line, would that be sufficient?
>>
>> [It's not a huge stretch of the imagination, because they overwhelmingly
>> reverse in a platform on the "Up" side of the station, and when they
>> get to Ely north "turn right" for Shippey Hill etc].
>>
>> And if it was a quarter, or even three quarters...
>
>If "about half" the trains run "wrong line" (in the sense that "up" is
>normally on the left where tracks are not bi-directional) then a driver
>will not think it is of concern to be routed onto the "wrong" line, and
>will not take any precautions or alert anyone - apart from negotiating
>the points in the station throat at a reduced speed,

In the example I gave, no such points issue, because you'd need to
negotiate those *only if* you were routed on the conventional left-hand
track. Meanwhile, due to two very dodgy river bridges[1], there's a
significant speed limit on both tracks anyway.

>he will then trust that the signaller knows what he is doing and will
>then drive at line speed (which may be lower on one track than the
>other).
>
>If, on the other hand, the line is not bi-directional, or if running on
>the "wrong" track is very rare, he may contact the signaller to check
>"are you sure?", or expect to have been briefed beforehand.

In the example I gave, running on the RH track is commonplace, probably
many times a day.

Far be it from me to introduce some actual information (rather than
speculation) into a thread like this, the Norwich-bound trains would
normally start via S285, and if running bidirectionally, S295 etc; or if
going on the left use the crossover to S293 etc and crossover again
after s303 to head for Shippea Hill.

https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/sbr#T_ELYY

There's a relevant train in Platform two right now (1L13)... let's see
what it does...ah-ha, it's running on the right, not least because the
lefthand track is occupied by a Kings Cross to Kings Lynn train (1T52),
which departed platform 1, one minute earlier.

Just to rub things in, there's now a Norwich-Nottingham service (1R96)
which is signalled via S298 to run RH southbound into platform 1, from
where it will reverse and run LH towards Manea.

[1] A least one of them has a detailed monthly inspection to see if it's
finally going to collapse; or is that: able to struggle on for
another month. Both bridges are due to be replaced as part of the
Ely-North junction improvement project, but as that's now in its
second decade of dithering, not even having local MP Liz Truss who
has supported the project all along, able to kickstart it during her
brief tenure as PM, I'm off to buy even more popcorn.
--
Roland Perry

On 05/03/2023 17:44, NY wrote:
> "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote in message
> news:tVz8mvuL5GBkFAXk@perry.uk...
>> In message <BsCcnY7LadZOxJn5nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 08:58:58 on Sun, 5 Mar 2023, NY <me@privacy.net> remarked:
>>
>>> On 05/03/2023 07:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> We are well past the point that we should using terms like
>>>> "correct/incorrect" to distinguish that situation from
>>>> bi-directional working where the "up/down" is dynamic.
>>>
>>> But I would imagine in most cases there is a "normal" line and an
>>> "exceptional" line, unless there really *are* cases where there is a
>>> roughly equal chance of being routed onto one line or the other. And
>>> that the "normal" line is the one which is named for the direction
>>> you are travelling in (eg the "up" line for a train which is going
>>> towards London) and the "exceptional" one is the one named for the
>>> opposite direction.
>>
>> What do you call "roughly equal"? If we were to discover that about
>> half the Ely-Norwich trains travel up to Ely North on the so-called
>> "Up-London" line, would that be sufficient?
>>
>> [It's not a huge stretch of the imagination, because they overwhelmingly
>>  reverse in a platform on the "Up" side of the station, and when they
>>  get to Ely north "turn right" for Shippey Hill etc].
>>
>> And if it was a quarter, or even three quarters...
>
> If "about half" the trains run "wrong line" (in the sense that "up" is
> normally on the left where tracks are not bi-directional) then a driver
> will not think it is of concern to be routed onto the "wrong" line, and
> will not take any precautions or alert anyone - apart from negotiating
> the points in the station throat at a reduced speed, he will then trust
> that the signaller knows what he is doing and will then drive at line
> speed (which may be lower on one track than the other).
>
> If, on the other hand, the line is not bi-directional, or if running on
> the "wrong" track is very rare, he may contact the signaller to check
> "are you sure?", or expect to have been briefed beforehand.

Except in this case there doesn't appear to be any form of train to
shore comms available. So having ended up running on the "wrong" track
the driver had no option but to accept the route.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 05/03/2023 19:42, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>> On 04/03/2023 18:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>>>>>>>> Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>>>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>>>>>>>> wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>>>>>>>> signalling system.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That may well be the case, but the question was whether the driver would
>>>>>>>> be *aware* he was running wrong line.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Obviously
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And of course if bidirectional running was common then there is no a priori
>>>>>> wrong line.
>>>>>
>>>>> There will still usually be a right line and a wrong line, IMX. The only
>>>>> places with no defined 'normal' direction for multiple lines are station
>>>>> throats eg Paddington and Cardiff.
>>>>
>>>> I think the point is that it may only be "wrong" in railway jargon, not
>>>> in the layman's sense of "incorrect". It may (or may not) be so common
>>>> for trains to run wrong line at that point that a driver would accept
>>>> either route without question.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, what I mean is that for bidirectionally-worked double track, there
>>> will be a normal direction of travel for each track, rather than trains
>>> using either line randomly. That's entirely separate from whether local
>>> rules and practice mean that crews will accept being routed onto the
>>> bidirectional track in the 'not-normal' direction without questioning it,
>>> particularly at night when there may be engineering work for example.
>>
>> Thank you. I imagine it would also be customary for particular workings to
>> be routed onto a specific track rather than for it to be random.
>>
>
> I've been routed onto the bi-directional aka reversible (in unexpected
> locations [1]) three times in the past two years - once quite recently for
> reasons unknown, another time because there had been a failure of the OLE
> supply and I had to pass a stranded 387 [2], and another time because I had
> to overtake another train (a very short length of bi-di there, just through
> an intermediate station) in circumstances which I don't quite recall, but
> there was disruption and out-of-course running going on. Only in the second
> scenario had I been appraised of what was going to occur, and that was only
> as an aside from the signaller during the conversation about needing to
> change to diesel mode following the power failure.
>
> [1] certain locations it’s quite common - for example to access platforms
> 1/2 at Bristol Parkway in the up direction, you have to cross to the
> reversible just after Filton or Patchway, depending where you're
> approaching from. Trains from Temple Meads to St Philips Marsh can only use
> the down line; on the occasions when a down train needs to access temple
> meads at the same time, it'll run reversible from Feeder Bridge Jn/North
> Somerset Jn to Bristol East Jn.
>
> [2] ironically the power was restored in the meantime, and having overtaken
> the stationary 387 it then overtook me back, before the end of that
> bidirectional section.
>
There's video of the reversible up line through Dawlish being used to
pass a service here:-

https://youtu.be/2vDh_9izqrY

On 05/03/2023 20:05, Graeme Wall wrote:
> Except in this case there doesn't appear to be any form of train to
> shore comms available. So having ended up running on the "wrong" track
> the driver had no option but to accept the route.

I wonder what the agreed protocol is for the Greek system if a driver
finds (or suspects) that he's been routed onto the wrong track and can't
contact the signaller by radio. Is he required to stop immediately to
lessen the effect of a head-on collision, or to continue to the next
signal that has a telephone (assuming that signal-post telephones are
used in the Greek system). I presume "press on regardless and hope for
the best" is *not* an option.

The difficult is when wrong-line working is so common than drivers don't
realise that on this occasion it is *not* correct.

Greek train crash official charged and taken into custody

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7105389a-bba7-11ed-b039-425ba6c60d6d?shareToken=e80faa5e78374044042498426a72f445>

A Greek stationmaster accused of causing the country’s deadliest train
accident has been charged and taken into custody, his lawyer and legal
officials said.

The accused, 59, who has accepted responsibility for failing to switch
tracks on a freight train — leaving it running on the same line as an
oncoming passenger train packed with university students — was charged with
multiple counts of negligent manslaughter.

He was also charged with “obstructing the passageway of transport”, after a
seven-hour testimony before a prosecutor and investigative magistrate in
city of Larissa, 380km north of Athens, near the site of the deadly
collision.

The stationmaster, whose identity has not been made public because of
strict Greek privacy laws, was taken into custody in the aftermath of the
testimony. No trial date has been set, but if convicted he faces up to life
imprisonment.

Stefanos Pantzartzidis, the stationmaster’s lawyer, said the unanimous
decision by the judicial officials “was anticipated”. He said his client
was “devastated” but was prepared to take “blame and accountability only
proportionate to him”.

It remained unclear whether other railway officials would be charged in
connection with the horrific crash that left at least 57 passengers dead,
26 injured and an unknown number of people missing.

Earlier in the day, OSE, Greece’s state-run railways company, said that the
stationmaster had been suspended pending the result of his trial.

His supervisor was also suspended for leaving him alone on the job. The
accused had been posted to the Larissa station days before the incident and
had only been given a brief training stint.

In message <hb490i5hu1eokgdjcagcbt3tkvti3oe5d2@4ax.com>, at 12:57:15 on
Sun, 5 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sun, 5 Mar 2023 07:22:02 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <tu0hhc$134qc$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:42:52 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>> On 04/03/2023 18:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>>>>>>>> Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>>><roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at
>>>>>>>>>>>night, to tell
>>>>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>>>>course what
>>>>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>>>>>>>> wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>>>>>>>> signalling system.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That may well be the case, but the question was whether the
>>>>>>>>driver would
>>>>>>>> be *aware* he was running wrong line.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Obviously
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And of course if bidirectional running was common then there is
>>>>>>no a priori
>>>>>> wrong line.
>>>>>
>>>>> There will still usually be a right line and a wrong line, IMX. The only
>>>>> places with no defined 'normal' direction for multiple lines are station
>>>>> throats eg Paddington and Cardiff.
>>>>
>>>> I think the point is that it may only be "wrong" in railway jargon, not
>>>> in the layman's sense of "incorrect". It may (or may not) be so common
>>>> for trains to run wrong line at that point that a driver would accept
>>>> either route without question.
>>>
>>>Yes, what I mean is that for bidirectionally-worked double track, there
>>>will be a normal direction of travel for each track, rather than trains
>>>using either line randomly. That's entirely separate from whether local
>>>rules and practice mean that crews will accept being routed onto the
>>>bidirectional track in the 'not-normal' direction without questioning it,
>>>particularly at night when there may be engineering work for example.
>>
>>What's "abnormal" though. As well as the overtaking I described a few
>>moments ago, I've written here recently about the practice for pairs of
>>trains heading from Ely to Norwich or Peterborough to travel side by
>>side up as far as Ely North Junction.
>
>We have no idea of the extent to which the operations of the Greek
>railway system are modelled on Ely.

Oh look, the bogus silver bullet again.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t7490iligvpkp5eblkk2dhi3krcpv625qm@4ax.com>, at 12:55:52 on
Sun, 5 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sun, 5 Mar 2023 07:16:45 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <tu0f8i$12stg$5@dont-email.me>, at 22:04:02 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>> On 04/03/2023 18:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>>>>>>>> Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>>><roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at
>>>>>>>>>>>night, to tell that he has been routed onto the wrong track
>>>>>>>>>>>(eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>>>>course what "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>>>>>>>> wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>>>>>>>> signalling system.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That may well be the case, but the question was whether the
>>>>>>>>driver would be *aware* he was running wrong line.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Obviously
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And of course if bidirectional running was common then there is
>>>>>>no a priori wrong line.
>>>>>
>>>>> There will still usually be a right line and a wrong line, IMX. The only
>>>>> places with no defined 'normal' direction for multiple lines are station
>>>>> throats eg Paddington and Cardiff.
>>>>
>>>> I think the point is that it may only be "wrong" in railway jargon, not
>>>> in the layman's sense of "incorrect". It may (or may not) be so common
>>>> for trains to run wrong line at that point that a driver would accept
>>>> either route without question.
>>>
>>>I don't know if we'll ever hear, but I wonder why the express passenger
>>>train was routed wrong line at all? Obviously whoever did it didn't know
>>>about the freight train, but even without it, why deliberately route it
>>>wrong line? Was it, perhaps, due to overtake a slow train?
>>
>>Remember the reporting of the "12 minutes" upthread, where the person
>>responsible realised he'd made a mistake, but had no way to warn the
>>trains? I suspect he then turned himself in to the authorities to avoid
>>getting lynched.
>
>I wonder what caused him to realise his error after 12 minutes? Perhaps
>it's when he discovered that there was a freight train on the same
>line?

Probably just a random thought occurring to him to check what he'd done
earlier.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tu4bho$1la5f$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:25:12 on Mon, 6 Mar
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Greek train crash official charged and taken into custody
>
><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7105389a-bba7-11ed-b039-425ba6c60d6d
>?shareToken=e80faa5e78374044042498426a72f445>
>
>A Greek stationmaster accused of causing the country’s deadliest train
>accident has been charged and taken into custody, his lawyer and legal
>officials said.
>
>The accused, 59, who has accepted responsibility for failing to switch
>tracks on a freight train — leaving it running on the same line as an
>oncoming passenger train packed with university students — was charged with
>multiple counts of negligent manslaughter.

Interesting; this sounds like the error was the person who routed the
freight train, not as I think we've all been assuming the one who routed
the passenger train.

But that just makes things even odder, because that means *both* trains
were supposed to running on the left, rather than the usual right. Or
are we also assuming incorrectly that on that stretch of line "usual"
was indeed on-the-right?

Which brings us back <drum roll> to what's usual between Ely and Ely
North.

>He was also charged with “obstructing the passageway of transport”, after a
>seven-hour testimony before a prosecutor and investigative magistrate in
>city of Larissa, 380km north of Athens, near the site of the deadly
>collision.
>
>The stationmaster, whose identity has not been made public because of
>strict Greek privacy laws, was taken into custody in the aftermath of the
>testimony. No trial date has been set, but if convicted he faces up to life
>imprisonment.
>
>Stefanos Pantzartzidis, the stationmaster’s lawyer, said the unanimous
>decision by the judicial officials “was anticipated”. He said his client
>was “devastated” but was prepared to take “blame and accountability only
>proportionate to him”.
>
>It remained unclear whether other railway officials would be charged in
>connection with the horrific crash that left at least 57 passengers dead,
>26 injured and an unknown number of people missing.
>
>Earlier in the day, OSE, Greece’s state-run railways company, said that the
>stationmaster had been suspended pending the result of his trial.

Yes, it's difficult to telework the role of stationmaster from a custody
cell.

>His supervisor was also suspended for leaving him alone on the job. The
>accused had been posted to the Larissa station days before the incident and
>had only been given a brief training stint.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tu4bho$1la5f$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:25:12 on Mon, 6 Mar
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Greek train crash official charged and taken into custody
>>
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7105389a-bba7-11ed-b039-425ba6c60d6d
>> ?shareToken=e80faa5e78374044042498426a72f445>
>>
>> A Greek stationmaster accused of causing the country’s deadliest train
>> accident has been charged and taken into custody, his lawyer and legal
>> officials said.
>>
>> The accused, 59, who has accepted responsibility for failing to switch
>> tracks on a freight train — leaving it running on the same line as an
>> oncoming passenger train packed with university students — was charged with
>> multiple counts of negligent manslaughter.
>
> Interesting; this sounds like the error was the person who routed the
> freight train, not as I think we've all been assuming the one who routed
> the passenger train.
>
> But that just makes things even odder, because that means *both* trains
> were supposed to running on the left, rather than the usual right. Or
> are we also assuming incorrectly that on that stretch of line "usual"
> was indeed on-the-right?

From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or siding?).
He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but for some
unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.

In message <tu71r6$c4ds$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:57:58 on Tue, 7 Mar
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tu4bho$1la5f$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:25:12 on Mon, 6 Mar
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Greek train crash official charged and taken into custody
>>>
>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7105389a-bba7-11ed-b039-425ba6c60d6d
>>> ?shareToken=e80faa5e78374044042498426a72f445>
>>>
>>> A Greek stationmaster accused of causing the country’s deadliest train
>>> accident has been charged and taken into custody, his lawyer and legal
>>> officials said.
>>>
>>> The accused, 59, who has accepted responsibility for failing to switch
>>> tracks on a freight train — leaving it running on the same line as an
>>> oncoming passenger train packed with university students — was
>>>charged with
>>> multiple counts of negligent manslaughter.
>>
>> Interesting; this sounds like the error was the person who routed the
>> freight train, not as I think we've all been assuming the one who routed
>> the passenger train.
>>
>> But that just makes things even odder, because that means *both* trains
>> were supposed to running on the left, rather than the usual right. Or
>> are we also assuming incorrectly that on that stretch of line "usual"
>> was indeed on-the-right?
>
>From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
>some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or siding?).
> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but for some
>unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.

I thought the pictures showed the passenger train running on the left,
whereas in Greece one might expect the correct side normally to be the
right.

(It's unfortunate the word "right" has two meanings, we should be
careful not to be ambiguous in its use).
--
Roland Perry

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or siding?).
> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but for some
> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.

That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running and the
passenger was left-hand running. Since the usual rule is right-hand
running, the passenger was running 'wrong line' and the freight was running
'normally'.

I'm trying to remember which platform trains called at in Larissa station
when I used it in 2003. I think it was right hand running (ie the platform
nearest the station building on the northwest side was for Athens, and the
middle track on the island for Thessaloniki, with the southeast loop being
for northbound locals), but I'm not 100%.

AFAICR all the passenger trains I travelled on were right-hand running, so
left-hand is out of the ordinary. At that time the line was only the new
double track as far as Evangelismos, at which point it switched to the old
single track through Tembi and Platamonas (the new Neoi Poroi station had
been built but not opened), so there was no left/right hand there.

There are no branches or sidings in the vicinity the freight would have come
from. There are some loops north of Larissa (near Evangelismos) but the
freight hadn't reached there. I'm not sure where the previous signalling
control point is - possibly Katerini or Platy.

Theo

On 07 Mar 2023 11:03:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
>> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or siding?).
>> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but for some
>> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>
>That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running and the
>passenger was left-hand running.

Are we sure about that?

> Since the usual rule is right-hand
>running, the passenger was running 'wrong line' and the freight was running
>'normally'.

Yes, right-hand running is the norm in Greece.

>
>I'm trying to remember which platform trains called at in Larissa station
>when I used it in 2003. I think it was right hand running (ie the platform
>nearest the station building on the northwest side was for Athens, and the
>middle track on the island for Thessaloniki, with the southeast loop being
>for northbound locals), but I'm not 100%.
>
>AFAICR all the passenger trains I travelled on were right-hand running, so
>left-hand is out of the ordinary. At that time the line was only the new
>double track as far as Evangelismos, at which point it switched to the old
>single track through Tembi and Platamonas (the new Neoi Poroi station had
>been built but not opened), so there was no left/right hand there.
>
>There are no branches or sidings in the vicinity the freight would have come
>from. There are some loops north of Larissa (near Evangelismos) but the
>freight hadn't reached there. I'm not sure where the previous signalling
>control point is - possibly Katerini or Platy.

In message <3Ab*+zCaz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 11:03:23 on Tue,
7 Mar 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
>> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or siding?).
>> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but for some
>> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>
>That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running and the
>passenger was left-hand running. Since the usual rule is right-hand
>running, the passenger was running 'wrong line' and the freight was running
>'normally'.

If this was AOL, I'd say "+1" (but it isn't, so I won't).
--
Roland Perry

Am 04.03.2023 um 17:48 schrieb Recliner:
> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 15:43:45 +0000, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 04/03/2023 12:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ttvbqa$vei9$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:59:06 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night,
>>>>>>>>>>> to tell
>>>>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of
>>>>>>>>>>> down)?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>>>> course what
>>>>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if
>>>>>>>>> he was
>>>>>>>>> expecting to).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>>>>>>>> track.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route
>>>>>>> knowledge?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>>>>>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
>>>>>> driver for more than week.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's different to route knowledge.
>>>>
>>>> Don't be absurd. It's very specifically route knowledge when the tracks
>>>> are bi-directional. So actually the original question might have been
>>>> better posed as "Was he in fact indisputably on the wrong track, and if
>>>> so, how would he have noticed".
>>>
>>> Which is the wrong track in Greece, do they run on the left or the right
>>> in normal sevice?
>>
>> The line has been reported as having both tracks bi-directional -
>> which seems un-necessary unless it enables an express to pass a slower
>> one in the same direction, which would actually reduce track capacity
>> because of waiting for an oncoming train to clear the line.
>
> It's appropriate for relatively lightly used mixed traffic lines and saves
> fitting passing loops. I've experienced it on HS1, when a Eurostar overtook
> our chartered Javelin wrong-line. Also in Germany, whan an ICE T overtook
> our steam train wrong line. Obviously, in both cases, the signalling was
> working correctly.

It's also appropriate for heavily used lines in combination with a
takt-based timetable. One example is the ICE from Mannheim going
towards Karlsruhe and Stuttgart, leaving at approximately the same time;
the train to Stuttgart sometimes has 'wrong-line' running for 20 to 30
miles up till the junction where the two main lines diverge.

On my local line Heidelberg - Karlsruhe, the reaction to delayed IC
trains is often wrong-line running for the local trains 9 miles from
Heidelberg to Walldorf, allowing the local train to leave Heidelberg
before the IC and only dropping behind the IC on the station entry to
Walldorf (where the local in the other direction blocks further
wrong-line running). Always a source of great mirth for the passengers
waiting on platform 1 to have to switch to platform 3 for the local
train ;-(