On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 14:17:57 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Then latest info is that both trains were hauled by the same type of
>> electric loco, both were destroyed.
>>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64808123> image 6 shows the
>> passenger train loco in red and white, the freight loco can be seen in
>> blue in the top image on the left of the collision point. In fact the
>> mangled heap of red and white metal beyond the freight loco may well be
>> the passenger loco.
>
>The number of the red and white loco is in one of those shots and both loco
>numbers are given in another report. Their Wikipedia entries also record
>that both have been destroyed in the crash.

I think this picture confirms it:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/01/world/europe/greece-train-crash.html

You can see electrical switchgear in the remains of the red & white loco.
I don't think I've ever seen a locomotive so comprehensively destroyed.
I suppose we can assume the drivers didn't make it.

On 01/03/2023 15:19, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <1iidnWhISJAL-mL-nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
> 14:56:20 on Wed, 1 Mar 2023, NY <me@privacy.net> remarked:
>> On 01/03/2023 14:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 01/03/2023 13:53, Ken wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 13:18:04 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 01/03/2023 13:01, Certes wrote:
>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 12:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do)
>>>>>>>> which was responsible for a crash.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the
>>>>>>> signalling?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> According to the link posted above[1], "the station master gives the
>>>>>> green light to move to the next station. This procedure is done at
>>>>>> approximately 15 points on the route from Athens to Thessaloniki".
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, so Greek station masters have some signalling duties? Didn't know
>>>>> that. I was wondering whether it was a "ding ding and away" collision
>>>>> (similar to Glasgow Bellgrove) where a driver got a "right away" (in
>>>>> this case, from the stationmaster; in Bellgrove's case, from the
>>>>> guard)
>>>>> but didn't check the signal. But the stationmaster *was* the
>>>>> signaller,
>>>>> in this case.
>>>>>
>>>> When I visited the Circumaetna railway in Sicily some stations had
>>>> signalling offices as part of their platform building, presumably
>>>> operated by station staff. And I think in the excellent Polish film
>>>> Closely Observed Trains the station staff operated signals. Perhaps
>>>> this was the norm in parts of Europe, at least in rural areas?
>>>>
>>>  Was the norm on some lines here, wasn't Abergele a similar problem,
>>> though there it was single line.
>>
>> I'm sure in the 1800s and 1900s it was quite common for station staff
>> at small stations to have to divide their time between platform duties
>> and signalling duties (eg collecting and returning the *correct*
>> tablet to the driver). But it's not something you expect in the 21st
>> century.
>>
>> Intriguing that one of the trains not only got an incorrect green
>> light but was also (it seems) routed wrong-line.
>
> Wouldn't it not have mattered if they got a false green light, had they
> not been routed wrong-track? It's the latter which seems to be the issue
> here.

This is pure speculation, but it's possible that the wrong routing was
the only problem here, i.e. that the train was authorised to proceed
safely right line but for some reason ran wrong line. The "green light"
(which may have been a flag, verbal message or written form for all I
know) may have been "false" only in the sense that someone (the station
master?) should have checked the points before issuing it. Reminder:
that was pure speculation.

>> Do Greek railways produce RAIB-like accident reports? If so, that will
>> make interesting reading...
>>
>> How common is it for countries to make reports into railway crashes
>> available outside the rail industry for the general public? Is the UK
>> unusual in this, or is it the norm in most countries?
>

In message <ttnto7$4sf$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:07 on Wed, 1 Mar 2023,
Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
>On 01/03/2023 15:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <1iidnWhISJAL-mL-nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>14:56:20 on Wed, 1 Mar 2023, NY <me@privacy.net> remarked:
>>> On 01/03/2023 14:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 01/03/2023 13:53, Ken wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 13:18:04 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 13:01, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 12:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do)
>>>>>>>>> which was responsible for a crash.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the
>>>>>>>>signalling?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> According to the link posted above[1], "the station master gives the
>>>>>>> green light to move to the next station. This procedure is done at
>>>>>>> approximately 15 points on the route from Athens to Thessaloniki".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, so Greek station masters have some signalling duties? Didn't
>>>>>> that. I was wondering whether it was a "ding ding and away"
>>>>>>collision (similar to Glasgow Bellgrove) where a driver got a
>>>>>>"right away" (in this case, from the stationmaster; in
>>>>>>Bellgrove's case, from the guard) but didn't check the signal.
>>>>>>But the stationmaster *was* the signaller, in this case.
>>>>>>
>>>>> When I visited the Circumaetna railway in Sicily some stations had
>>>>> signalling offices as part of their platform building, presumably
>>>>> operated by station staff. And I think in the excellent Polish film
>>>>> Closely Observed Trains the station staff operated signals. Perhaps
>>>>> this was the norm in parts of Europe, at least in rural areas?
>>>>>
>>>>  Was the norm on some lines here, wasn't Abergele a similar
>>>>problem, though there it was single line.
>>>
>>> I'm sure in the 1800s and 1900s it was quite common for station
>>>staff at small stations to have to divide their time between
>>>platform duties and signalling duties (eg collecting and returning
>>>the *correct* tablet to the driver). But it's not something you
>>>expect in the 21st century.
>>>
>>> Intriguing that one of the trains not only got an incorrect green
>>>light but was also (it seems) routed wrong-line.

>> Wouldn't it not have mattered if they got a false green light, had
>>they not been routed wrong-track? It's the latter which seems to be
>>the issue here.
>
>This is pure speculation, but it's possible that the wrong routing was
>the only problem here, i.e. that the train was authorised to proceed
>safely right line but for some reason ran wrong line. The "green light"
>(which may have been a flag, verbal message or written form for all I
>know)

I'm sure we can all agree that "green light" is a metaphor. Just like
the commonplace journalistic expression when some proposition [rather
than a train] is described as "hitting the buffers".

>may have been "false" only in the sense that someone (the station
>master?) should have checked the points before issuing it. Reminder:
>that was pure speculation.
>
>>> Do Greek railways produce RAIB-like accident reports? If so, that
>>>will make interesting reading...
>>>
>>> How common is it for countries to make reports into railway crashes
>>>available outside the rail industry for the general public? Is the UK
>>>unusual in this, or is it the norm in most countries?
>>
>

--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 12:33:34 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>
>Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>
>I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do) which
>was responsible for a crash.

Probably a combination of different terminology and translation issues. The
person in question appears to have given the passenger train permission to
move. We'd probably call him a signaller.

Mark

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 14:17:57 -0000 (UTC)
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Then latest info is that both trains were hauled by the same type of
>>> electric loco, both were destroyed.
>>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64808123> image 6 shows the
>>> passenger train loco in red and white, the freight loco can be seen in
>>> blue in the top image on the left of the collision point. In fact the
>>> mangled heap of red and white metal beyond the freight loco may well be
>>> the passenger loco.
>>
>> The number of the red and white loco is in one of those shots and both loco
>> numbers are given in another report. Their Wikipedia entries also record
>> that both have been destroyed in the crash.
>
> I think this picture confirms it:
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/01/world/europe/greece-train-crash.html

Paywall, but from what I can see that’s a photo I recognise from elsewhere.
There are plenty of others out there now.

> You can see electrical switchgear in the remains of the red & white loco.
> I don't think I've ever seen a locomotive so comprehensively destroyed.
> I suppose we can assume the drivers didn't make it.

I think it would be a genuine breaks-the-laws-of-physics type miracle if
they had.

I’m having trouble getting my head around what the mechanism would be for
the first carriage to have been so comprehensively burned out and the
second to be severely damaged by fire (assuming that the first two
carriages are the ones at angles to the track and that there’s not the
remains of another carriage somewhere in the wreckage). The locos were
electric, the first few flat bed wagons seem to have been carrying steel
sheet or something similar. Do electric locos carry enough flammable
liquids to cause that size of fire, and if so how was it the carriage was
burned and the locos, across the other side of the wreckage, were not?
I’ve clearly missed something.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 01/03/2023 15:19, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <1iidnWhISJAL-mL-nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
> 14:56:20 on Wed, 1 Mar 2023, NY <me@privacy.net> remarked:
>> On 01/03/2023 14:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 01/03/2023 13:53, Ken wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 13:18:04 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 01/03/2023 13:01, Certes wrote:
>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 12:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do)
>>>>>>>> which was responsible for a crash.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the
>>>>>>> signalling?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> According to the link posted above[1], "the station master gives the
>>>>>> green light to move to the next station. This procedure is done at
>>>>>> approximately 15 points on the route from Athens to Thessaloniki".
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, so Greek station masters have some signalling duties? Didn't know
>>>>> that. I was wondering whether it was a "ding ding and away" collision
>>>>> (similar to Glasgow Bellgrove) where a driver got a "right away" (in
>>>>> this case, from the stationmaster; in Bellgrove's case, from the
>>>>> guard)
>>>>> but didn't check the signal. But the stationmaster *was* the
>>>>> signaller,
>>>>> in this case.
>>>>>
>>>> When I visited the Circumaetna railway in Sicily some stations had
>>>> signalling offices as part of their platform building, presumably
>>>> operated by station staff. And I think in the excellent Polish film
>>>> Closely Observed Trains the station staff operated signals. Perhaps
>>>> this was the norm in parts of Europe, at least in rural areas?
>>>>
>>>  Was the norm on some lines here, wasn't Abergele a similar problem,
>>> though there it was single line.
>>
>> I'm sure in the 1800s and 1900s it was quite common for station staff
>> at small stations to have to divide their time between platform duties
>> and signalling duties (eg collecting and returning the *correct*
>> tablet to the driver). But it's not something you expect in the 21st
>> century.
>>
>> Intriguing that one of the trains not only got an incorrect green
>> light but was also (it seems) routed wrong-line.
>
> Wouldn't it not have mattered if they got a false green light, had they
> not been routed wrong-track? It's the latter which seems to be the issue
> here.

It sounds as if the whole signalling system was borked, so it may not
even have checked the interlocking between the points and the signals,
so the green light may have been given even though the points were set
to route the train onto the wrong line.

As you say, it was the incorrect routing which was the crucial factor.
Of course, if the track ahead had been single, even passing an incorrect
signal would have been catastrophic; in this case, *two* things went
wrong (incorrect signal, incorrect route).

I wonder what "manual" protocol was being used between signalboxes in
lieu of the correct fully-interlocked system? Bellcodes? Telephone
messages? Time interval?

I wonder if the driver was able to alert anyone that he'd been routed
onto the incorrect track? The report says "last night" so the accident
seems to have happened in darkness, making it harder to see that it's
the wrong track.

NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> Do Greek railways produce RAIB-like accident reports? If so, that will
> make interesting reading...
>
> How common is it for countries to make reports into railway crashes
> available outside the rail industry for the general public? Is the UK
> unusual in this, or is it the norm in most countries?

There are annual safety reports:
https://ras-el.gr/ektheseis-asfaleias/

RAS is the regulator, the Greek equivalent of ORR. I'm not sure if there's
a separate RAIB body.

Theo

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> I’m having trouble getting my head around what the mechanism would be for
> the first carriage to have been so comprehensively burned out and the
> second to be severely damaged by fire (assuming that the first two
> carriages are the ones at angles to the track and that there’s not the
> remains of another carriage somewhere in the wreckage). The locos were
> electric, the first few flat bed wagons seem to have been carrying steel
> sheet or something similar. Do electric locos carry enough flammable
> liquids to cause that size of fire, and if so how was it the carriage was
> burned and the locos, across the other side of the wreckage, were not?
> I’ve clearly missed something.

ERT has security camera video of the crash (it was dark, so you can only
really see the explosion):

https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562301173/tragodia-sta-tempi-i-stigmi-tis-sygkroysis-ton-dyo-trenon-vinteo-ntokoymento/

There appears to be an electrical flash and then a large fireball.

It could be the fire was primarily electrical, rather than sustained by
chemical burning?

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> I’m having trouble getting my head around what the mechanism would be for
>> the first carriage to have been so comprehensively burned out and the
>> second to be severely damaged by fire (assuming that the first two
>> carriages are the ones at angles to the track and that there’s not the
>> remains of another carriage somewhere in the wreckage). The locos were
>> electric, the first few flat bed wagons seem to have been carrying steel
>> sheet or something similar. Do electric locos carry enough flammable
>> liquids to cause that size of fire, and if so how was it the carriage was
>> burned and the locos, across the other side of the wreckage, were not?
>> I’ve clearly missed something.
>
> ERT has security camera video of the crash (it was dark, so you can only
> really see the explosion):
>
> https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562301173/tragodia-sta-tempi-i-stigmi-tis-sygkroysis-ton-dyo-trenon-vinteo-ntokoymento/
>
> There appears to be an electrical flash and then a large fireball.

Hmmm. There seems to be a light moving from the left and then, some way
to the right of that, some electrical sparking and the explosion. If the
light was on the passenger train it’s difficult to know why we’re not
seeing lights in carriage windows; if it was on the goods train then what
was it?

> It could be the fire was primarily electrical, rather than sustained by
> chemical burning?

The explosion looks chemically fuelled. Odd.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 01/03/2023 18:11, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> I’m having trouble getting my head around what the mechanism would be for
>>> the first carriage to have been so comprehensively burned out and the
>>> second to be severely damaged by fire (assuming that the first two
>>> carriages are the ones at angles to the track and that there’s not the
>>> remains of another carriage somewhere in the wreckage). The locos were
>>> electric, the first few flat bed wagons seem to have been carrying steel
>>> sheet or something similar. Do electric locos carry enough flammable
>>> liquids to cause that size of fire, and if so how was it the carriage was
>>> burned and the locos, across the other side of the wreckage, were not?
>>> I’ve clearly missed something.
>>
>> ERT has security camera video of the crash (it was dark, so you can only
>> really see the explosion):
>>
>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562301173/tragodia-sta-tempi-i-stigmi-tis-sygkroysis-ton-dyo-trenon-vinteo-ntokoymento/
>>
>> There appears to be an electrical flash and then a large fireball.
>
> Hmmm. There seems to be a light moving from the left and then, some way
> to the right of that, some electrical sparking and the explosion. If the
> light was on the passenger train it’s difficult to know why we’re not
> seeing lights in carriage windows; if it was on the goods train then what
> was it?
>
Could be traffic on the parallel (almost) motorway.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 14:56:20 +0000, NY wrote:
> I'm sure in the 1800s and 1900s it was quite common for station staff at
> small stations to have to divide their time between platform duties and
> signalling duties (eg collecting and returning the *correct* tablet to
> the driver). But it's not something you expect in the 21st century.

I can't be bothered to go and get my copy of "Red for Danger", but I
think it was quite early that signalling became distinct from the station
duties. As part of the push for interlocking, it was required that all
the signal levers at a station were in the same place. This led to the
classic signal box with the lever frame upstairs, as it would be
difficult to get a full view of the station from platform level. And once
the signaller is upstairs in a signal box, it's difficult to get them to
do other duties at the station, except at the very quietest stations.
Station staff handling tokens was banned after the Abermule crash.

Mike

On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 18:11:11 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> I’m having trouble getting my head around what the mechanism would be for
>>> the first carriage to have been so comprehensively burned out and the
>>> second to be severely damaged by fire (assuming that the first two
>>> carriages are the ones at angles to the track and that there’s not the
>>> remains of another carriage somewhere in the wreckage). The locos were
>>> electric, the first few flat bed wagons seem to have been carrying steel
>>> sheet or something similar. Do electric locos carry enough flammable
>>> liquids to cause that size of fire, and if so how was it the carriage was
>>> burned and the locos, across the other side of the wreckage, were not?
>>> I’ve clearly missed something.
>>
>> ERT has security camera video of the crash (it was dark, so you can only
>> really see the explosion):
>>
>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562301173/tragodia-sta-tempi-i-stigmi-tis-sygkroysis-ton-dyo-trenon-vinteo-ntokoymento/
>>
>> There appears to be an electrical flash and then a large fireball.
>
>Hmmm. There seems to be a light moving from the left and then, some way
>to the right of that, some electrical sparking and the explosion. If the
>light was on the passenger train it’s difficult to know why we’re not
>seeing lights in carriage windows; if it was on the goods train then what
>was it?
>
>> It could be the fire was primarily electrical, rather than sustained by
>> chemical burning?
>
>The explosion looks chemically fuelled. Odd.
>
It seems very brief with nothing rising, more like an electrical event
than an explosion.

On 01/03/2023 19:30, Mike Humphrey wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 14:56:20 +0000, NY wrote:
>> I'm sure in the 1800s and 1900s it was quite common for station staff at
>> small stations to have to divide their time between platform duties and
>> signalling duties (eg collecting and returning the *correct* tablet to
>> the driver). But it's not something you expect in the 21st century.
>
> I can't be bothered to go and get my copy of "Red for Danger", but I
> think it was quite early that signalling became distinct from the station
> duties. As part of the push for interlocking, it was required that all
> the signal levers at a station were in the same place. This led to the
> classic signal box with the lever frame upstairs, as it would be
> difficult to get a full view of the station from platform level. And once
> the signaller is upstairs in a signal box, it's difficult to get them to
> do other duties at the station, except at the very quietest stations.
> Station staff handling tokens was banned after the Abermule crash.

In the early days, signalling was carried out by "railway policemen"
nicknamed "bobbies" (as for normal policemen). Either Red for Danger or
else O S Nock's similar book mentions that signallers are still (as of
the writing of the book) known colloquially as "bobbies".

But I'm sure at quiet stations, with long gaps between trains, there was
a temptation to give the signallers platform-related duties, or to use
platform staff as signallers' assistants.

I hadn't realised that Abermule was actually the accident that ended
this practice. I *think* Abermule was the one where a junior porter
collected the token from a driver who was waiting to enter the next
single-line section, went off to do something platform-related and then
went back to the train to give him the token for the next section - but
ended up giving him the token he'd just taken from him moments earlier -
so the train went forward with a token for the wrong section, and the
right token had not been removed from the machine so the signaller at
the next box was not blocked from issuing a token to an oncoming train.

Ah, I'd forgotten this bit: the token machine was kept in a different
place to the point-operating levers, and different people handled the
two tasks. The token was passed from one person to another and wrong
assumptions were made that it was the new tablet rather than the old one.

Hard to believe that was only 100 years ago.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 01/03/2023 18:11, Sam Wilson wrote:
> > Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> >> ERT has security camera video of the crash (it was dark, so you can only
> >> really see the explosion):
> >>
> >> https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562301173/tragodia-sta-tempi-i-stigmi-tis-sygkroysis-ton-dyo-trenon-vinteo-ntokoymento/
> >>
> >> There appears to be an electrical flash and then a large fireball.
> >
> > Hmmm. There seems to be a light moving from the left and then, some way
> > to the right of that, some electrical sparking and the explosion. If the
> > light was on the passenger train it’s difficult to know why we’re not
> > seeing lights in carriage windows; if it was on the goods train then what
> > was it?
> >
> Could be traffic on the parallel (almost) motorway.

It is, it looks like a truck travelling southbound. The motorway goes over
a wide bridge that crosses the railway at that point. The traffic is ~10m
higher than the track there.

Theo

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 18:11:11 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> I’m having trouble getting my head around what the mechanism would be for
>>>> the first carriage to have been so comprehensively burned out and the
>>>> second to be severely damaged by fire (assuming that the first two
>>>> carriages are the ones at angles to the track and that there’s not the
>>>> remains of another carriage somewhere in the wreckage). The locos were
>>>> electric, the first few flat bed wagons seem to have been carrying steel
>>>> sheet or something similar. Do electric locos carry enough flammable
>>>> liquids to cause that size of fire, and if so how was it the carriage was
>>>> burned and the locos, across the other side of the wreckage, were not?
>>>> I’ve clearly missed something.
>>>
>>> ERT has security camera video of the crash (it was dark, so you can only
>>> really see the explosion):
>>>
>>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562301173/tragodia-sta-tempi-i-stigmi-tis-sygkroysis-ton-dyo-trenon-vinteo-ntokoymento/
>>>
>>> There appears to be an electrical flash and then a large fireball.
>>
>> Hmmm. There seems to be a light moving from the left and then, some way
>> to the right of that, some electrical sparking and the explosion. If the
>> light was on the passenger train it’s difficult to know why we’re not
>> seeing lights in carriage windows; if it was on the goods train then what
>> was it?
>>
>>> It could be the fire was primarily electrical, rather than sustained by
>>> chemical burning?
>>
>> The explosion looks chemically fuelled. Odd.
>>
> It seems very brief with nothing rising, more like an electrical event
> than an explosion.

No, there are at least three visible phases: 1) electrical arcing; 2) light
bright enough to overload the camera sensor; 3) large column of dark smoke
with interior flame, typical of an oil-based fire. I guess it could be
transformer oil, but I still don’t understand why the carriages burned.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 01/03/2023 18:11, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> I’m having trouble getting my head around what the mechanism would be for
>>>> the first carriage to have been so comprehensively burned out and the
>>>> second to be severely damaged by fire (assuming that the first two
>>>> carriages are the ones at angles to the track and that there’s not the
>>>> remains of another carriage somewhere in the wreckage). The locos were
>>>> electric, the first few flat bed wagons seem to have been carrying steel
>>>> sheet or something similar. Do electric locos carry enough flammable
>>>> liquids to cause that size of fire, and if so how was it the carriage was
>>>> burned and the locos, across the other side of the wreckage, were not?
>>>> I’ve clearly missed something.
>>>
>>> ERT has security camera video of the crash (it was dark, so you can only
>>> really see the explosion):
>>>
>>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562301173/tragodia-sta-tempi-i-stigmi-tis-sygkroysis-ton-dyo-trenon-vinteo-ntokoymento/
>>>
>>> There appears to be an electrical flash and then a large fireball.
>>
>> Hmmm. There seems to be a light moving from the left and then, some way
>> to the right of that, some electrical sparking and the explosion. If the
>> light was on the passenger train it’s difficult to know why we’re not
>> seeing lights in carriage windows; if it was on the goods train then what
>> was it?
>>
> Could be traffic on the parallel (almost) motorway.

Good point, that would be it. Thanks.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 01/03/2023 18:11, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> ERT has security camera video of the crash (it was dark, so you can only
>>>> really see the explosion):
>>>>
>>>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562301173/tragodia-sta-tempi-i-stigmi-tis-sygkroysis-ton-dyo-trenon-vinteo-ntokoymento/
>>>>
>>>> There appears to be an electrical flash and then a large fireball.
>>>
>>> Hmmm. There seems to be a light moving from the left and then, some way
>>> to the right of that, some electrical sparking and the explosion. If the
>>> light was on the passenger train it’s difficult to know why we’re not
>>> seeing lights in carriage windows; if it was on the goods train then what
>>> was it?
>>>
>> Could be traffic on the parallel (almost) motorway.
>
> It is, it looks like a truck travelling southbound. The motorway goes over
> a wide bridge that crosses the railway at that point. The traffic is ~10m
> higher than the track there.

Thank you.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 18:11:11 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> I’m having trouble getting my head around what the mechanism would be for
>>>>> the first carriage to have been so comprehensively burned out and the
>>>>> second to be severely damaged by fire (assuming that the first two
>>>>> carriages are the ones at angles to the track and that there’s not the
>>>>> remains of another carriage somewhere in the wreckage). The locos were
>>>>> electric, the first few flat bed wagons seem to have been carrying steel
>>>>> sheet or something similar. Do electric locos carry enough flammable
>>>>> liquids to cause that size of fire, and if so how was it the carriage was
>>>>> burned and the locos, across the other side of the wreckage, were not?
>>>>> I’ve clearly missed something.
>>>>
>>>> ERT has security camera video of the crash (it was dark, so you can only
>>>> really see the explosion):
>>>>
>>>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562301173/tragodia-sta-tempi-i-stigmi-tis-sygkroysis-ton-dyo-trenon-vinteo-ntokoymento/
>>>>
>>>> There appears to be an electrical flash and then a large fireball.
>>>
>>> Hmmm. There seems to be a light moving from the left and then, some way
>>> to the right of that, some electrical sparking and the explosion. If the
>>> light was on the passenger train it’s difficult to know why we’re not
>>> seeing lights in carriage windows; if it was on the goods train then what
>>> was it?
>>>
>>>> It could be the fire was primarily electrical, rather than sustained by
>>>> chemical burning?
>>>
>>> The explosion looks chemically fuelled. Odd.
>>>
>> It seems very brief with nothing rising, more like an electrical event
>> than an explosion.
>
> No, there are at least three visible phases: 1) electrical arcing; 2) light
> bright enough to overload the camera sensor; 3) large column of dark smoke
> with interior flame, typical of an oil-based fire. I guess it could be
> transformer oil, but I still don’t understand why the carriages burned.
>

Might there be catering facilities with a kitchen with some flammable
materials or gas? Though there can't be large quantities.

On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 22:24:21 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 18:11:11 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> I?m having trouble getting my head around what the mechanism would be for
>>>>> the first carriage to have been so comprehensively burned out and the
>>>>> second to be severely damaged by fire (assuming that the first two
>>>>> carriages are the ones at angles to the track and that there?s not the
>>>>> remains of another carriage somewhere in the wreckage). The locos were
>>>>> electric, the first few flat bed wagons seem to have been carrying steel
>>>>> sheet or something similar. Do electric locos carry enough flammable
>>>>> liquids to cause that size of fire, and if so how was it the carriage was
>>>>> burned and the locos, across the other side of the wreckage, were not?
>>>>> I?ve clearly missed something.
>>>>
>>>> ERT has security camera video of the crash (it was dark, so you can only
>>>> really see the explosion):
>>>>
>>>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562301173/tragodia-sta-tempi-i-stigmi-tis-sygkroysis-ton-dyo-trenon-vinteo-ntokoymento/
>>>>
>>>> There appears to be an electrical flash and then a large fireball.
>>>
>>> Hmmm. There seems to be a light moving from the left and then, some way
>>> to the right of that, some electrical sparking and the explosion. If the
>>> light was on the passenger train it?s difficult to know why we?re not
>>> seeing lights in carriage windows; if it was on the goods train then what
>>> was it?
>>>
>>>> It could be the fire was primarily electrical, rather than sustained by
>>>> chemical burning?
>>>
>>> The explosion looks chemically fuelled. Odd.
>>>
>> It seems very brief with nothing rising, more like an electrical event
>> than an explosion.
>
>No, there are at least three visible phases: 1) electrical arcing; 2) light
>bright enough to overload the camera sensor; 3) large column of dark smoke
>with interior flame, typical of an oil-based fire. I guess it could be
>transformer oil,
>
Which might explain the apparent short period?

>but I still don’t understand why the carriages burned.
>
Luggage, less fire-resistant carpet and seat material? As demonstrated
at Grenfell Tower, fire-resistant is not fire-proof once an ignition
point is achieved.

>I hadn't realised that Abermule was actually the accident that ended
>this practice. I *think* Abermule was the one where a junior porter
>collected the token from a driver who was waiting to enter the next
>single-line section, went off to do something platform-related and then
>went back to the train to give him the token for the next section - but
>ended up giving him the token he'd just taken from him moments earlier -
>so the train went forward with a token for the wrong section, and the
>right token had not been removed from the machine so the signaller at
>the next box was not blocked from issuing a token to an oncoming train.
>
>
>Ah, I'd forgotten this bit: the token machine was kept in a different
>place to the point-operating levers, and different people handled the
>two tasks. The token was passed from one person to another and wrong
>assumptions were made that it was the new tablet rather than the old one.
>
>Hard to believe that was only 100 years ago.

Read all about this sorry event here!...

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=89
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On 01/03/2023 23:01, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 22:24:21 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 18:11:11 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> I?m having trouble getting my head around what the mechanism would be for
>>>>>> the first carriage to have been so comprehensively burned out and the
>>>>>> second to be severely damaged by fire (assuming that the first two
>>>>>> carriages are the ones at angles to the track and that there?s not the
>>>>>> remains of another carriage somewhere in the wreckage). The locos were
>>>>>> electric, the first few flat bed wagons seem to have been carrying steel
>>>>>> sheet or something similar. Do electric locos carry enough flammable
>>>>>> liquids to cause that size of fire, and if so how was it the carriage was
>>>>>> burned and the locos, across the other side of the wreckage, were not?
>>>>>> I?ve clearly missed something.
>>>>>
>>>>> ERT has security camera video of the crash (it was dark, so you can only
>>>>> really see the explosion):
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562301173/tragodia-sta-tempi-i-stigmi-tis-sygkroysis-ton-dyo-trenon-vinteo-ntokoymento/
>>>>>
>>>>> There appears to be an electrical flash and then a large fireball.
>>>>
>>>> Hmmm. There seems to be a light moving from the left and then, some way
>>>> to the right of that, some electrical sparking and the explosion. If the
>>>> light was on the passenger train it?s difficult to know why we?re not
>>>> seeing lights in carriage windows; if it was on the goods train then what
>>>> was it?
>>>>
>>>>> It could be the fire was primarily electrical, rather than sustained by
>>>>> chemical burning?
>>>>
>>>> The explosion looks chemically fuelled. Odd.
>>>>
>>> It seems very brief with nothing rising, more like an electrical event
>>> than an explosion.
>>
>> No, there are at least three visible phases: 1) electrical arcing; 2) light
>> bright enough to overload the camera sensor; 3) large column of dark smoke
>> with interior flame, typical of an oil-based fire. I guess it could be
>> transformer oil,
>>
> Which might explain the apparent short period?
>
>> but I still don’t understand why the carriages burned.
>>
> Luggage, less fire-resistant carpet and seat material? As demonstrated
> at Grenfell Tower, fire-resistant is not fire-proof once an ignition
> point is achieved.

The freight train was containers so could have been the contents of one
of those.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 17:34:26 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> You can see electrical switchgear in the remains of the red & white loco.
>> I don't think I've ever seen a locomotive so comprehensively destroyed.
>> I suppose we can assume the drivers didn't make it.
>
>I think it would be a genuine breaks-the-laws-of-physics type miracle if
>they had.
>
>I’m having trouble getting my head around what the mechanism would be for
>the first carriage to have been so comprehensively burned out and the
>second to be severely damaged by fire (assuming that the first two
>carriages are the ones at angles to the track and that there’s not the
>remains of another carriage somewhere in the wreckage). The locos were
>electric, the first few flat bed wagons seem to have been carrying steel
>sheet or something similar. Do electric locos carry enough flammable
>liquids to cause that size of fire, and if so how was it the carriage was
>burned and the locos, across the other side of the wreckage, were not?
>I’ve clearly missed something.

My guess is something flammable in the containers on the freight train. A
number of which seem to have been completely fragmented as there appears to
be no sign of them.

On 02.03.23 09:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 01/03/2023 23:01, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 22:24:21 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 18:11:11 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> I?m having trouble getting my head around what the mechanism
>>>>>>> would be for
>>>>>>> the first carriage to have been so comprehensively burned out and
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> second to be severely damaged by fire (assuming that the first two
>>>>>>> carriages are the ones at angles to the track and that there?s
>>>>>>> not the
>>>>>>> remains of another carriage somewhere in the wreckage).  The
>>>>>>> locos were
>>>>>>> electric, the first few flat bed wagons seem to have been
>>>>>>> carrying steel
>>>>>>> sheet or something similar.  Do electric locos carry enough
>>>>>>> flammable
>>>>>>> liquids to cause that size of fire, and if so how was it the
>>>>>>> carriage was
>>>>>>> burned and the locos, across the other side of the wreckage, were
>>>>>>> not?
>>>>>>> I?ve clearly missed something.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ERT has security camera video of the crash (it was dark, so you
>>>>>> can only
>>>>>> really see the explosion):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562301173/tragodia-sta-tempi-i-stigmi-tis-sygkroysis-ton-dyo-trenon-vinteo-ntokoymento/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There appears to be an electrical flash and then a large fireball.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm.   There seems to be a light moving from the left and then,
>>>>> some way
>>>>> to the right of that, some electrical sparking and the explosion.
>>>>> If the
>>>>> light was on the passenger train it?s difficult to know why we?re not
>>>>> seeing lights in carriage windows; if it was on the goods train
>>>>> then what
>>>>> was it?
>>>>>
>>>>>> It could be the fire was primarily electrical, rather than
>>>>>> sustained by
>>>>>> chemical burning?
>>>>>
>>>>> The explosion looks chemically fuelled.  Odd.
>>>>>
>>>> It seems very brief with nothing rising, more like an electrical event
>>>> than an explosion.
>>>
>>> No, there are at least three visible phases: 1) electrical arcing; 2)
>>> light
>>> bright enough to overload the camera sensor; 3) large column of dark
>>> smoke
>>> with interior flame, typical of an oil-based fire.  I guess it could be
>>> transformer oil,
>>>
>> Which might explain the apparent short period?
>>
>>> but I still don’t understand why the carriages burned.
>>>
>> Luggage, less fire-resistant carpet and seat material? As demonstrated
>> at Grenfell Tower, fire-resistant is not fire-proof once an ignition
>> point is achieved.
>
> The freight train was containers so could have been the contents of one
> of those.

It's not unusual for refrigerated containers to have an onboard engine
to power the refrigeration system independently, and fuel for such a
system is naturally a fire hazard.

Robin

NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 01/03/2023 15:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <1iidnWhISJAL-mL-nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 14:56:20 on Wed, 1 Mar 2023, NY <me@privacy.net> remarked:
>>> On 01/03/2023 14:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 01/03/2023 13:53, Ken wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 13:18:04 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 13:01, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 12:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do)
>>>>>>>>> which was responsible for a crash.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the
>>>>>>>> signalling?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> According to the link posted above[1], "the station master gives the
>>>>>>> green light to move to the next station. This procedure is done at
>>>>>>> approximately 15 points on the route from Athens to Thessaloniki".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, so Greek station masters have some signalling duties? Didn't know
>>>>>> that. I was wondering whether it was a "ding ding and away" collision
>>>>>> (similar to Glasgow Bellgrove) where a driver got a "right away" (in
>>>>>> this case, from the stationmaster; in Bellgrove's case, from the
>>>>>> guard)
>>>>>> but didn't check the signal. But the stationmaster *was* the
>>>>>> signaller,
>>>>>> in this case.
>>>>>>
>>>>> When I visited the Circumaetna railway in Sicily some stations had
>>>>> signalling offices as part of their platform building, presumably
>>>>> operated by station staff. And I think in the excellent Polish film
>>>>> Closely Observed Trains the station staff operated signals. Perhaps
>>>>> this was the norm in parts of Europe, at least in rural areas?
>>>>>
>>>>  Was the norm on some lines here, wasn't Abergele a similar problem,
>>>> though there it was single line.
>>>
>>> I'm sure in the 1800s and 1900s it was quite common for station staff
>>> at small stations to have to divide their time between platform duties
>>> and signalling duties (eg collecting and returning the *correct*
>>> tablet to the driver). But it's not something you expect in the 21st
>>> century.
>>>
>>> Intriguing that one of the trains not only got an incorrect green
>>> light but was also (it seems) routed wrong-line.
>>
>> Wouldn't it not have mattered if they got a false green light, had they
>> not been routed wrong-track? It's the latter which seems to be the issue
>> here.
>
> It sounds as if the whole signalling system was borked, so it may not
> even have checked the interlocking between the points and the signals,
> so the green light may have been given even though the points were set
> to route the train onto the wrong line.
>
> As you say, it was the incorrect routing which was the crucial factor.
> Of course, if the track ahead had been single, even passing an incorrect
> signal would have been catastrophic; in this case, *two* things went
> wrong (incorrect signal, incorrect route).
>
> I wonder what "manual" protocol was being used between signalboxes in
> lieu of the correct fully-interlocked system? Bellcodes? Telephone
> messages? Time interval?
>
> I wonder if the driver was able to alert anyone that he'd been routed
> onto the incorrect track? The report says "last night" so the accident
> seems to have happened in darkness, making it harder to see that it's
> the wrong track.
>

From:

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4d50bf22-b7ed-11ed-a513-158bcb2665eb?shareToken=5d9bd512122f151559d534b5cc3d2e12>

The Greek stationmaster who oversaw the head-on collision of two trains is
to appear before a local prosecutor today, charged with multiple counts of
manslaughter, after he was accused of “pressing the wrong button” then
failing to stop the disaster.

One official said the mistake was entirely attributable to the negligence
of the station chief, who took the job three months ago. “When he switched
the incoming train to the same line as the freight train, I asked him,
‘What have you done?’ He understood his mistake. But by then it was too
late. It was clearly his mistake. You don’t just press a button and leave
it,” he said, declining to give his name, on the Antenna television
network.

The 59-year-old stationmaster of Larissa, 230 miles north of the Greek
capital, has already confessed to failing to change tracks, keeping both
trains on the same line. In his first testimony, he said he “realised” his
mistake 12 minutes after authorising the passenger train to leave the
station despite a red warning signal. The deadly collision happened 12
minutes later.

The stationmaster remains in police custody and authorities have refused to
release his name. He faces life imprisonment for a string of criminal
charges, with which he is due to be formally charged by a local prosecutor
today, judicial sources told The Times.

However, many Greeks see the catastrophe as an accident waiting to happen,
blaming mismanagement of the country’s rail network and lax government
oversight. Protests have erupted across Greece and rioters clashed with
police outside the headquarters of Hellenic Train, the main network
operator in Athens.

“Even if the stationmaster made a mistake, a security system should have
been in place to avert it,” said Nikos Kioutsoukis, a railway trade
unionist. He said a state-of-the-art security system had been purchased by
the government before the 2004 Athens Olympics but was never installed,
leaving Greece’s rail system operating “blind”.

In February railway union chiefs had warned of potential accidents because
of the lack of a failsafe system and staff shortages. The warnings were
ignored by the government of Kyriakos Mitsotakis, the prime minister.

In message <ttpv4i$9f0g$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:52:02 on Thu, 2 Mar
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>The 59-year-old stationmaster of Larissa, 230 miles north of the Greek
>capital, has already confessed to failing to change tracks, keeping both
>trains on the same line. In his first testimony, he said he “realised” his
>mistake 12 minutes after authorising the passenger train to leave the
>station despite a red warning signal. The deadly collision happened 12
>minutes later.

Two consecutive 12 minutes, or the same 12 minutes?
--
Roland Perry