Am 01.03.2023 um 20:30 schrieb Mike Humphrey:
> On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 14:56:20 +0000, NY wrote:
>> I'm sure in the 1800s and 1900s it was quite common for station staff at
>> small stations to have to divide their time between platform duties and
>> signalling duties (eg collecting and returning the *correct* tablet to
>> the driver). But it's not something you expect in the 21st century.
>
> I can't be bothered to go and get my copy of "Red for Danger", but I
> think it was quite early that signalling became distinct from the station
> duties. As part of the push for interlocking, it was required that all
> the signal levers at a station were in the same place. This led to the
> classic signal box with the lever frame upstairs, as it would be
> difficult to get a full view of the station from platform level.

This might be where the situation in UK diverged from mainland Europe.
In Germany, it is typical for smallish stations (e.g. Neckargemünd, a
simple junction - 4 tracks - with no additional freight facilities) that
the signal box is at platform level.

Only larger stations with plenty of freight tracks had the need for an
'upstairs' signal box.

Rolf

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 17:34:26 -0000 (UTC)
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> You can see electrical switchgear in the remains of the red & white loco.
>>> I don't think I've ever seen a locomotive so comprehensively destroyed.
>>> I suppose we can assume the drivers didn't make it.
>>
>> I think it would be a genuine breaks-the-laws-of-physics type miracle if
>> they had.
>>
>> I’m having trouble getting my head around what the mechanism would be for
>> the first carriage to have been so comprehensively burned out and the
>> second to be severely damaged by fire (assuming that the first two
>> carriages are the ones at angles to the track and that there’s not the
>> remains of another carriage somewhere in the wreckage). The locos were
>> electric, the first few flat bed wagons seem to have been carrying steel
>> sheet or something similar. Do electric locos carry enough flammable
>> liquids to cause that size of fire, and if so how was it the carriage was
>> burned and the locos, across the other side of the wreckage, were not?
>> I’ve clearly missed something.
>
> My guess is something flammable in the containers on the freight train. A
> number of which seem to have been completely fragmented as there appears to
> be no sign of them.

There seem to be a number of flat bed wagons and what look like sheets of
sheet steel in the space between the overbridge and the two destroyed
locos. See the second image here:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64808123>.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 02/03/2023 13:32, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 01.03.2023 um 20:30 schrieb Mike Humphrey:
>> On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 14:56:20 +0000, NY wrote:
>>> I'm sure in the 1800s and 1900s it was quite common for station staff at
>>> small stations to have to divide their time between platform duties and
>>> signalling duties (eg collecting and returning the *correct* tablet to
>>> the driver). But it's not something you expect in the 21st century.
>>
>> I can't be bothered to go and get my copy of "Red for Danger", but I
>> think it was quite early that signalling became distinct from the station
>> duties. As part of the push for interlocking, it was required that all
>> the signal levers at a station were in the same place. This led to the
>> classic signal box with the lever frame upstairs, as it would be
>> difficult to get a full view of the station from platform level.
>
> This might be where the situation in UK diverged from mainland Europe.
> In Germany, it is typical for smallish stations (e.g. Neckargemünd, a
> simple junction - 4 tracks - with no additional freight facilities) that
> the signal box is at platform level.
>
> Only larger stations with plenty of freight tracks had the need for an
> 'upstairs' signal box.
>

There are still a few British signal boxes on platforms, though probably
not for much longer. eg
<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Haslemere_signal_box.jpg> will
go out of service later this year when the Portsmouth Direct line is
switched to Basingstoke box.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384

Reportedly

120 023
120 012+120 022

(just so someone can get offended)

Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>
> Reportedly
>
> 120 023
> 120 012+120 022
>
> (just so someone can get offended)

022 is obvious in one of the photos; 012 has been reported elsewhere.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 02/03/2023 18:38, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>
> Reportedly
>
> 120 023
> 120 012+120 022
>
> (just so someone can get offended)

Master Polson is no longer of this parish…
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

"Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ttpv4i$9f0g$5@dont-email.me...

> However, many Greeks see the catastrophe as an accident waiting to happen,
> blaming mismanagement of the country’s rail network and lax government
> oversight. Protests have erupted across Greece and rioters clashed with
> police outside the headquarters of Hellenic Train, the main network
> operator in Athens.
>
> “Even if the stationmaster made a mistake, a security system should have
> been in place to avert it,” said Nikos Kioutsoukis, a railway trade
> unionist. He said a state-of-the-art security system had been purchased by
> the government before the 2004 Athens Olympics but was never installed,
> leaving Greece’s rail system operating “blind”.
>
> In February railway union chiefs had warned of potential accidents because
> of the lack of a failsafe system and staff shortages. The warnings were
> ignored by the government of Kyriakos Mitsotakis, the prime minister.

I'm inclined to agree. Anyone can make a mistake if two "buttons" or other
type of control are next to each other. The system should be designed to be
foolproof and failsafe, and not *let* someone do something that is
dangerous. Hell, we've had mechanical interlocking in signal boxes for a
hundred or more years. Computer systems have had "are you sure?" checks on
destructive operations for as long as I've been using them.

In the absence of interlocking in the system, if they were operating in
"manual mode" as some reports say, the substitute is for one person to look
over another's shoulder when operations are performed, as a second check.

As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell that
he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)? I imagine
the signalling system did not run to being able to send radio messages
to/from drivers to alert them about an imminent collision - if even just the
wrongly-routed train had stopped, the accident would probably have been less
severe.

On 03/03/2023 09:40, NY wrote:
> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ttpv4i$9f0g$5@dont-email.me...
>
>> However, many Greeks see the catastrophe as an accident waiting to
>> happen
<snip>
>> a state-of-the-art security system had been purchased by
>> the government before the 2004 Athens Olympics but was never installed,
>> leaving Greece’s rail system operating “blind”.
>
> I'm inclined to agree. Anyone can make a mistake if two "buttons" or
> other type of control are next to each other. The system should be
> designed to be foolproof and failsafe, and not *let* someone do
> something that is dangerous. Hell, we've had mechanical interlocking in
> signal boxes for a hundred or more years. Computer systems have had "are
> you sure?" checks on destructive operations for as long as I've been
> using them.

Even if the human gets it wrong one time in a million, a commendable
record at the end of a long shift, it doesn't take long for a busy
network to clock up a million signal movements with a result like this.
Even the most cold-hearted accountant should see that automated checks
are less expensive than the consequences of skimping on them.

In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:

>As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?

That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
"route knowledge is all about.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>
>>As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>
>That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>"route knowledge is all about.

It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he
was protected by the signalling system.

On 03/03/2023 13:50, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>
>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to
>> tell that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of
>> down)?
>
> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
> "route knowledge is all about.

On the other hand if it is bi-directionally signalled the driver may
just have assumed there was work going on on the other track at night.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384

Tragedy in Tempe: Signaling and remote control on the tracks of time

The awarding of a project to a private consortium in 2014 that never
materialized and years of omissions by successive governments

George Lialias
03.03.2023 • 10:35
https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562303441/tragodia-sta-tempi-i-simatodotisi-kai-i-tiledioikisi-stis-rages-toy-chronoy/

An almost ten-year history of incorrect manipulations, omissions and –
possibly intentionally – manipulations harmful to the public interest. The
new evidence that is constantly coming to light, for the project that if it
had been carried out today we would not be mourning dozens of people, shows
that successive governments were indifferent to the quagmire in which the
case had fallen. It was the intervention of the European Commission in
2018, which led to the return of 2.4 million euros, that “awakened” the
state apparatus, indicating a deeper problem in contracting.

In 2014 ERGOSE signed a contract assigning a private party to make the
signaling and remote control system operational again , which had been
installed a decade earlier and which had fallen into disuse due to damage
and sabotage, mainly cable theft or destruction of the infrastructure. The
project is called "Reconstruction of the signaling system - remote control
and replacement of 70 track changes in identified sections of the Athens -
Thessaloniki axis " and the contractor is the joint venture TOMI (subsidiary
of "Ellaktor") - Alstom. The contract had an initial budget of 41 million
euros and a completion deadline of two years, i.e. 2016.

Consecutive extensions

However, problems appeared very soon. As early as 2016, the project began
to receive successive extensions until, according to sources in the Ministry
of Infrastructure, it fell into a quagmire. Given that the project was
financed by the NSRF, the Financial Audit Committee (EDEL) intervened in the
case, which carried out an audit in October and November 2018. In the audit
report, the EDL identified serious problems in the SKA-Platy department and
requested the recovery of 2.42 million euros from the principal of the
project, ERGOSE. According to the decision of the then Deputy Minister of
Finance Giorgos Chouliarakis (24.6.2019), which validated the audit report
of EDEL, "the above fiscal correction is imposed for the non-preparation and
approval of the studies by the lending company (s.s. Alstom) using the
specialized staff and the experience it has in signaling - remote control
projects, as well as the failure to provide the specialized experience and
know-how during the execution of the works by the contracting consortium".

In other words, two years after the initial contract deadline, part of the
necessary studies had not been prepared and approved and part of the works
that had been carried out could not be certified. This development
indicated that the contract was now on the brink of dissolution – despite
the “national plan” submitted by the Ministry of Infrastructurein 2018 he
claimed to the Community authorities that the project could be completed...
in early 2019, deliberately misleading the Community authorities. The
State, however, did not defend its position. Instead of declaring the joint
venture (which was responsible for the situation, according to EDL's
conclusion), ERGOSE preferred to give successive extensions to the project,
accepting (albeit partially) responsibility for the delay. Thus the project
came to have a final date of March 2023 and with the next extension (until
September) being ante portas.

Another 13.3 million euros

The mandatory return of part of the community funding launched developments
in the project. At the beginning of 2021, TOMI withdrew from the project,
assigning through a private agreement to Alstom its technical work on the
electronic systems (it formally remained in the consortium). Subsequently,
one year later, at the end of 2022, a supplementary contract was signed with
the consortium (essentially with Alstom), amounting to 13.3 million euros,
for the completion of the project. All these delays, of course, contributed
to the fact that there is still no modern remote control and signaling
system nor the implementation of the ETCS system (which automatically brakes
trains if they exceed the set speed or a serious problem is detected).
Systems that could have prevented yesterday's tragedy.

Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
> This is pure speculation, but it's possible that the wrong routing was
> the only problem here, i.e. that the train was authorised to proceed
> safely right line but for some reason ran wrong line. The "green light"
> (which may have been a flag, verbal message or written form for all I
> know) may have been "false" only in the sense that someone (the station
> master?) should have checked the points before issuing it. Reminder:
> that was pure speculation.

['Locksmith' = key-man = signaller, I think. I'm not sure if 'key' = lever
or point]

Locksmith profession: What are keys and how do they work in the OSE network

In places in Northern Greece the keys are still changed manually. The
president of the OSE workers and a metro marking technician speak to "K".

Dimitra Triantafillou
03.03.2023 • 15:31
https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562304677/epaggelma-kleidoychos-ti-einai-ta-kleidia-kai-pos-leitoyrgoyn-sto-diktyo-toy-ose/

The unspeakable tragedy in Tempe , in addition to the sadness and anger it
has caused to the relatives of the victims but also to the entire society,
has brought to the surface the many problems and the outdated way in which
the railway network of the country operates in a large part .

In fact, the dialogue that came to light between the station master and the
locksmith "raised" reasonable questions about the responsibilities of the
locksmith .

The dialogue was as follows:

Key: Santa, should I turn? (s.p. the "key")
['Santa' = Vassili, not St Vassili (Santa Claus!)]

Stathmarchis: No, no, leave it as it is because 1564 follows.
['Stathmarchis' = stationmaster]
[1564 is a Paleofarsalos-Larissa local train]

Key: Done, fine, I'll leave it as it is diagonally.

Giorgos Nikolaou, a signaling technician at the metro, explains that in the
language of railway workers, the keys - or scissors as the workers call them
differently - are the mechanism that is activated when a train needs to
change its track , to be transferred from one line to an adjacent one ,
parallel etc. The point of branching, the "bouquet" of lines, is called a
crossover (or needles).

As Mr. Nikolaou notes: "Both in OSE, as well as in the metro and in ISAP,
the keys are in many different places and are necessary for many reasons.
If, for example, a train gets stuck on a track, the key is what will allow
the next one to be used or the train to make a maneuver. Or if, for
example, a metro station is decided to remain closed for some reason, a key
will be changed so that the train can continue on its way to the other
stations."

In the metro and ISAP, key changes are done electronically , as Mr.
Nikolaou says. Given that there is also the system of remote control and
electronic marking "for something similar to what happened in Tempi to
happen, someone has to come and do it on purpose", emphasizes the engineer
and adds: "even if they are on the same route two trains, the remaining
parts of the remote control system will again make the chance of them
colliding almost zero."

What happens to the keys in the OSE

Thanasis Leventis, president of the workers at OSE, explains to "K" that in
Larissa, the keys are changed automatically, with an operation performed by
the locksmith at the control panel (in contrast, in the metro there is an
electronic EPS system).

The locksmith receives an order from the station master to change the keys.

After all, as Mr. Leventis explains, today's locksmith, as a railway
worker, has as his main mission to help the station master, taking orders
from the latter. If a failure occurs in the automatic system or if
necessary, the locksmith will manually change the keys – always on the
command of the station master.

According to Mr. Leventis, while the greater part of the
Athens-Thessaloniki route operates automatically when the keys are changed,
this does not happen along the entire length of the Greek railway . "In
places in Northern Greece there is not even an automatic system and keys are
changed the way it was done decades ago, when locksmiths did the work
manually over the lines. This is still happening in various places."

An example is what happened in August 2020 with a train running the
Athens-Thessaloniki route. A little outside the Thessaloniki railway
station, the passengers waited immobilized for 25 minutes for an OSE
locksmith to come, to change the keys, since the automatic system in this
section, just 700 meters from the Thessaloniki station, does not work .

"A very important specialty"

The locksmith was on leave. However, as Mr. Leventis notes: " Locksmiths
remain a very important specialty for the operation of trains today, but
they are far fewer than we need. The organizational chart of OSE includes
2,100 employees and we have ended up being 720 .

It should be noted that according to the complaints of OSE employees in
parts of the network such as Platy-Florina, the trains go... alone, since
Amyntaio, Veria and Edessa, have no station masters, except for a single
keyman in Edessa.

In recent years, the continuous retirements of stationmasters and locksmiths
combined with the non-approval of recruitments further worsened the
situation in the Greek railways.

A year ago, the Panhellenic Union of Stationmasters pointed out in a letter
that "the train running the Platy-Florina-Platy route traveled approximately
340 kilometers, taking 4 hours and 20 minutes without the supervision of its
traffic by a stationmaster.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>
>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>
> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
> "route knowledge is all about.

Headlights, the trains have headlights, and the driver will have noticed
passing over points (or not, if he was expecting to).

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>
>>>As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>
>>That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>"route knowledge is all about.
>
>It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>signalling system.

That may well be the case, but the question was whether the driver would
be *aware* he was running wrong line.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ttsvoo$leoo$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:21:12 on Fri, 3 Mar
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 03/03/2023 13:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>
>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to
>>>tell that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of
>>>down)?
>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course
>>what "route knowledge is all about.
>
>On the other hand if it is bi-directionally signalled the driver may
>just have assumed there was work going on on the other track at night.

To assume that, he must have been aware; so that answer's NY's question.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>
>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>
>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>> "route knowledge is all about.
>
>Headlights, the trains have headlights,

They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.

>and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if he was
>expecting to).

Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
track.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>
>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>
>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>
>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>
> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>
>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if he was
>> expecting to).
>
> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
> track.

How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route knowledge?
That's a very British thing.

In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>
>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>
>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>
>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>
>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if he was
>>> expecting to).
>>
>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>> track.
>
>How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route knowledge?

You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
driver for more than week.
>
>That's a very British thing.
>

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>
>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>
>>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>>
>>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>>
>>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if he was
>>>> expecting to).
>>>
>>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>>> track.
>>
>> How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route knowledge?
>
> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
> driver for more than week.

That's different to route knowledge.

In message <ttvbqa$vei9$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:59:06 on Sat, 4 Mar
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>
>>>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>>>
>>>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>>>
>>>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if he was
>>>>> expecting to).
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>>>> track.
>>>
>>> How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route knowledge?
>>
>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
>> driver for more than week.
>
>That's different to route knowledge.

Don't be absurd. It's very specifically route knowledge when the tracks
are bi-directional. So actually the original question might have been
better posed as "Was he in fact indisputably on the wrong track, and if
so, how would he have noticed".
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 12:14:06 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <ttvbqa$vei9$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:59:06 on Sat, 4 Mar
>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>>>>
>>>>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>>>>
>>>>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if he was
>>>>>> expecting to).
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>>>>> track.
>>>>
>>>> How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route knowledge?
>>>
>>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
>>> driver for more than week.
>>
>>That's different to route knowledge.
>
>Don't be absurd. It's very specifically route knowledge when the tracks
>are bi-directional. So actually the original question might have been
>better posed as "Was he in fact indisputably on the wrong track, and if
>so, how would he have noticed".

You're mixing them up, again. Any driver who 'had a job as a train driver for more than week' would know they were
running wrong line. Having Route knowledge would mean that they knew in which circumstances that was allowed on that
particular route.

On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>
>>>>As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>>that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>
>>>That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>>"route knowledge is all about.
>>
>>It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>signalling system.
>
>That may well be the case, but the question was whether the driver would
>be *aware* he was running wrong line.

Obviously

In message <u9f60ilvgbs4vsam7me8r8g2va8g2eqi6q@4ax.com>, at 12:46:37 on
Sat, 4 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 12:14:06 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <ttvbqa$vei9$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:59:06 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at
>>>>>>>>>night, to tell that he has been routed onto the wrong track
>>>>>>>>>(eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>>course what "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if he was
>>>>>>> expecting to).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>>>>>> track.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route knowledge?
>>>>
>>>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>>>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
>>>> driver for more than week.
>>>
>>>That's different to route knowledge.
>>
>>Don't be absurd. It's very specifically route knowledge when the tracks
>>are bi-directional. So actually the original question might have been
>>better posed as "Was he in fact indisputably on the wrong track, and if
>>so, how would he have noticed".
>
>You're mixing them up, again. Any driver who 'had a job as a train
>driver for more than week' would know they were running wrong line.
>Having Route knowledge would mean that they knew in which circumstances
>that was allowed on that particular route.

That would be getting a signal (in whatever form it was) to proceed.

The question I was answering was how easy it would be for the driver to
know he'd been routed down an incorrect track. That would be from
observing that he was on the up vs down (or vice versa) side, when his
route knowledge told him it *wasn't* bidirectional.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 13:01:08 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <u9f60ilvgbs4vsam7me8r8g2va8g2eqi6q@4ax.com>, at 12:46:37 on
>Sat, 4 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 12:14:06 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <ttvbqa$vei9$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:59:06 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at
>>>>>>>>>>night, to tell that he has been routed onto the wrong track
>>>>>>>>>>(eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>>>course what "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if he was
>>>>>>>> expecting to).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>>>>>>> track.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route knowledge?
>>>>>
>>>>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>>>>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
>>>>> driver for more than week.
>>>>
>>>>That's different to route knowledge.
>>>
>>>Don't be absurd. It's very specifically route knowledge when the tracks
>>>are bi-directional. So actually the original question might have been
>>>better posed as "Was he in fact indisputably on the wrong track, and if
>>>so, how would he have noticed".
>>
>>You're mixing them up, again. Any driver who 'had a job as a train
>>driver for more than week' would know they were running wrong line.
>>Having Route knowledge would mean that they knew in which circumstances
>>that was allowed on that particular route.
>
>That would be getting a signal (in whatever form it was) to proceed.
>
>The question I was answering was how easy it would be for the driver to
>know he'd been routed down an incorrect track. That would be from
>observing that he was on the up vs down (or vice versa) side, when his
>route knowledge told him it *wasn't* bidirectional.

We simply don't know what level of route knowledge is expected of Greek train drivers. I know that, in some other
countries, very little is needed. Train drivers are just expected to follow the signals, not anticipate them. I don't
know if any other countries go as far as the UK in demanding that drivers know a route in detail *before* they start
driving it.

Also, as with the signalling, what actually happens in Greece may not be what the rules say it should. For example, the
adjacent country, that once rules Greece, has very strict building codes because it's known to be an area prone to
frequent, large earthquakes. But, sadly, many builders didn't follow them, and skimped on the steel reinforcement. Even
worse, the government would grant periodic amnesties to buildings that had been constructed in violation of the codes.
And architects who tried to blow the whistle on unsafe construction were locked up. Only now are the right people being
locked up.