On 04/03/2023 12:14, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ttvbqa$vei9$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:59:06 on Sat, 4 Mar
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night,
>>>>>>>> to tell
>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of
>>>>>>>> down)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>> course what
>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>>>>
>>>>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>>>>
>>>>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if
>>>>>> he was
>>>>>> expecting to).
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>>>>> track.
>>>>
>>>> How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route
>>>> knowledge?
>>>
>>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
>>> driver for more than week.
>>
>> That's different to route knowledge.
>
> Don't be absurd. It's very specifically route knowledge when the tracks
> are bi-directional. So actually the original question might have been
> better posed as "Was he in fact indisputably on the wrong track, and if
> so, how would he have noticed".

Which is the wrong track in Greece, do they run on the left or the right
in normal sevice?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 04/03/2023 14:21, Recliner wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 13:01:08 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <u9f60ilvgbs4vsam7me8r8g2va8g2eqi6q@4ax.com>, at 12:46:37 on
>> Sat, 4 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 12:14:06 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <ttvbqa$vei9$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:59:06 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at
>>>>>>>>>>> night, to tell that he has been routed onto the wrong track
>>>>>>>>>>> (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>>>> course what "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if he was
>>>>>>>>> expecting to).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>>>>>>>> track.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route knowledge?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>>>>>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
>>>>>> driver for more than week.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's different to route knowledge.
>>>>
>>>> Don't be absurd. It's very specifically route knowledge when the tracks
>>>> are bi-directional. So actually the original question might have been
>>>> better posed as "Was he in fact indisputably on the wrong track, and if
>>>> so, how would he have noticed".
>>>
>>> You're mixing them up, again. Any driver who 'had a job as a train
>>> driver for more than week' would know they were running wrong line.
>>> Having Route knowledge would mean that they knew in which circumstances
>>> that was allowed on that particular route.
>>
>> That would be getting a signal (in whatever form it was) to proceed.
>>
>> The question I was answering was how easy it would be for the driver to
>> know he'd been routed down an incorrect track. That would be from
>> observing that he was on the up vs down (or vice versa) side, when his
>> route knowledge told him it *wasn't* bidirectional.
>
> We simply don't know what level of route knowledge is expected of Greek train drivers. I know that, in some other
> countries, very little is needed. Train drivers are just expected to follow the signals, not anticipate them. I don't
> know if any other countries go as far as the UK in demanding that drivers know a route in detail *before* they start
> driving it.
>
> Also, as with the signalling, what actually happens in Greece may not be what the rules say it should. For example, the
> adjacent country, that once rules Greece, has very strict building codes because it's known to be an area prone to
> frequent, large earthquakes. But, sadly, many builders didn't follow them, and skimped on the steel reinforcement. Even
> worse, the government would grant periodic amnesties to buildings that had been constructed in violation of the codes.
> And architects who tried to blow the whistle on unsafe construction were locked up. Only now are the right people being
> locked up.

They've locked up the corrupt ministers?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/03/2023 12:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ttvbqa$vei9$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:59:06 on Sat, 4 Mar
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night,
>>>>>>>>> to tell
>>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of
>>>>>>>>> down)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>> course what
>>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if
>>>>>>> he was
>>>>>>> expecting to).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>>>>>> track.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route
>>>>> knowledge?
>>>>
>>>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>>>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
>>>> driver for more than week.
>>>
>>> That's different to route knowledge.
>>
>> Don't be absurd. It's very specifically route knowledge when the tracks
>> are bi-directional. So actually the original question might have been
>> better posed as "Was he in fact indisputably on the wrong track, and if
>> so, how would he have noticed".
>
> Which is the wrong track in Greece, do they run on the left or the right
> in normal sevice?

Greece has right-hand running, so the passenger train was running wrong
line. I've not seen any reports of who took the decision to switch the
track, or why. I don't think it was the 'station master', who simply gave
the order to depart.

It appears that the Greek railways basically shut down in the financial
crisis, and it seems to be running again with the infrastructure not fully
restored to safe operation.

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> It's not unusual for refrigerated containers to have an onboard engine
> to power the refrigeration system independently, and fuel for such a
> system is naturally a fire hazard.

Tempi: The critical questions of the tragedy and the estimates for the causes of the explosion

It is believed that the brake oils ignited, which is why there was an explosion after the crash

Newsroom
04.03.2023 • 17:32
https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562307464/tempi-ta-krisima-erotimata-tis-tragodias-kai-oi-ektimiseis-gia-ta-aitia-tis-ekrixis/

Critical questions about the "chain of mistakes" that led to the tragedy in
Tempi , as well as an explanation for the explosion caused after the
collision of the two trains, were raised by Christos Glavopoulos, Mechanical
- electrical engineer and forensic expert.

The first question he raised, speaking to ERT, is whether the station master
Larisis knew that the commercial train was moving on the same line as IC62.
"It has not been made public if he knew that he was really sending the
passenger train on the same line, this action cannot be logically
explained," noted Mr. Glavopoulos.

Secondly, according to him, by looking at his console, the station master
could have seen the approach process of the two trains, i.e. that they are
going to collide. “What the technical experts will have to investigate is
whether the console itself actually shows. How can we draw a conclusion
when we don't know two key points? Firstly, if it had been informed by
document and secondly, if the console really shows what it should show", he
said characteristically.

Furthermore, he said that the Railway Regulatory Authority has to answer a
series of questions as it audits, collects and deals with problems of OSE,
ERGOSE, TRAINOSE, Hellenic Train and anyone else involved in the country's
railway project.

The "black boxes" of trains

Mr. Glavopoulos also emphasized the "black boxes" of the two trains that
contain the tachograph and, in all probability, the various conversations
that took place between the train driver and the station master. The
problem, of course, is that due to the high temperatures, the "black boxes"
are likely to have been damaged.

As he explains: “The black box with the tachograph readings of the
conversations is an electronic system, which I hope was not destroyed by the
explosion. In all the railway accidents we have been involved in, under
normal circumstances the investigating authority instructs the OSE, "take
out the tachograph and tell us what it says". In this particular case, I
would like the appointed experts to be present when the tachograph is
extracted, if possible, and during the investigation and study of the
tachograph records – which should be done by independent experts and not by
the OSE itself - so as to ensure its integrity".

What caused the explosion?

Regarding the dozens of meters high "mushroom" that rose up after the
explosion, the forensic expert expressed with great certainty that there was
an ignition of the oils that regulate the brake system.

"The brake system works with oil, which is constantly under pressure when
the space explodes or the tank that has the oil and the other systems is
suddenly released, gas appears and catches fire," he noted.

According to ERT information, there were 2.5 tons of oil in each engine,
i.e. five tons of oil in both trains.
The head-on collision raised the temperature above the auto-ignition limit,
ruptured the container, spewed out the oils, caught fire and created this
huge mushroom

It is noted that according to the investigations of the Police and the Fire
Brigade, the commercial train was carrying sheet metal, fruit and grain and
not any flammable material.

"The chain of human errors must be found"

Speaking about the "human error", Mr. Glavopoulos concluded by saying: "The
right of the prime minister is that he did not name who made the human error
and this must be investigated. Everyone thinks that the human error is the
fault of the station master Larissa. Indeed, the last chain of human errors
occurred with the handling of the station master. However, the chain of
human error that led to the last error should be investigated if it is an
error and if there is a written telegram that a commercial train is coming.
When that's resolved, we'll start going to the next step."

On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 15:43:45 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 04/03/2023 12:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ttvbqa$vei9$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:59:06 on Sat, 4 Mar
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night,
>>>>>>>>> to tell
>>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of
>>>>>>>>> down)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>> course what
>>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if
>>>>>>> he was
>>>>>>> expecting to).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>>>>>> track.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route
>>>>> knowledge?
>>>>
>>>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>>>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
>>>> driver for more than week.
>>>
>>> That's different to route knowledge.
>>
>> Don't be absurd. It's very specifically route knowledge when the tracks
>> are bi-directional. So actually the original question might have been
>> better posed as "Was he in fact indisputably on the wrong track, and if
>> so, how would he have noticed".
>
>Which is the wrong track in Greece, do they run on the left or the right
>in normal sevice?

The line has been reported as having both tracks bi-directional -
which seems un-necessary unless it enables an express to pass a slower
one in the same direction, which would actually reduce track capacity
because of waiting for an oncoming train to clear the line.

Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 15:43:45 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 04/03/2023 12:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ttvbqa$vei9$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:59:06 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night,
>>>>>>>>>> to tell
>>>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of
>>>>>>>>>> down)?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>>> course what
>>>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if
>>>>>>>> he was
>>>>>>>> expecting to).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>>>>>>> track.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route
>>>>>> knowledge?
>>>>>
>>>>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>>>>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
>>>>> driver for more than week.
>>>>
>>>> That's different to route knowledge.
>>>
>>> Don't be absurd. It's very specifically route knowledge when the tracks
>>> are bi-directional. So actually the original question might have been
>>> better posed as "Was he in fact indisputably on the wrong track, and if
>>> so, how would he have noticed".
>>
>> Which is the wrong track in Greece, do they run on the left or the right
>> in normal sevice?
>
> The line has been reported as having both tracks bi-directional -
> which seems un-necessary unless it enables an express to pass a slower
> one in the same direction, which would actually reduce track capacity
> because of waiting for an oncoming train to clear the line.
>

It's appropriate for relatively lightly used mixed traffic lines and saves
fitting passing loops. I've experienced it on HS1, when a Eurostar overtook
our chartered Javelin wrong-line. Also in Germany, whan an ICE T overtook
our steam train wrong line. Obviously, in both cases, the signalling was
working correctly.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>> Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>
>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>
>>> It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>> wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>> signalling system.
>>
>> That may well be the case, but the question was whether the driver would
>> be *aware* he was running wrong line.
>
> Obviously

And of course if bidirectional running was common then there is no a priori
wrong line.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>
>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>
>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>
>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>
> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.

Irrelevant as to knowing which track he’s on, and seeing the track(s)
illuminated in front would be even more obvious than seeing the OHLE.

>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if he was
>> expecting to).
>
> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
> track.

See following discussion about route knowledge, bi-di working and which
line is right or wrong.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> It's not unusual for refrigerated containers to have an onboard engine
>> to power the refrigeration system independently, and fuel for such a
>> system is naturally a fire hazard.
>
> Tempi: The critical questions of the tragedy and the estimates for the
> causes of the explosion
>
> It is believed that the brake oils ignited, which is why there was an
> explosion after the crash
>
> Newsroom
> 04.03.2023 • 17:32
> https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562307464/tempi-ta-krisima-erotimata-tis-tragodias-kai-oi-ektimiseis-gia-ta-aitia-tis-ekrixis/
>
> Critical questions about the "chain of mistakes" that led to the tragedy in
> Tempi , as well as an explanation for the explosion caused after the
> collision of the two trains, were raised by Christos Glavopoulos, Mechanical
> - electrical engineer and forensic expert.
>
> The first question he raised, speaking to ERT, is whether the station master
> Larisis knew that the commercial train was moving on the same line as IC62.
> "It has not been made public if he knew that he was really sending the
> passenger train on the same line, this action cannot be logically
> explained," noted Mr. Glavopoulos.
>
> Secondly, according to him, by looking at his console, the station master
> could have seen the approach process of the two trains, i.e. that they are
> going to collide. “What the technical experts will have to investigate is
> whether the console itself actually shows. How can we draw a conclusion
> when we don't know two key points? Firstly, if it had been informed by
> document and secondly, if the console really shows what it should show", he
> said characteristically.
>
> Furthermore, he said that the Railway Regulatory Authority has to answer a
> series of questions as it audits, collects and deals with problems of OSE,
> ERGOSE, TRAINOSE, Hellenic Train and anyone else involved in the country's
> railway project.
>
> The "black boxes" of trains
>
> Mr. Glavopoulos also emphasized the "black boxes" of the two trains that
> contain the tachograph and, in all probability, the various conversations
> that took place between the train driver and the station master. The
> problem, of course, is that due to the high temperatures, the "black boxes"
> are likely to have been damaged.
>
> As he explains: “The black box with the tachograph readings of the
> conversations is an electronic system, which I hope was not destroyed by the
> explosion. In all the railway accidents we have been involved in, under
> normal circumstances the investigating authority instructs the OSE, "take
> out the tachograph and tell us what it says". In this particular case, I
> would like the appointed experts to be present when the tachograph is
> extracted, if possible, and during the investigation and study of the
> tachograph records – which should be done by independent experts and not by
> the OSE itself - so as to ensure its integrity".
>
> What caused the explosion?
>
> Regarding the dozens of meters high "mushroom" that rose up after the
> explosion, the forensic expert expressed with great certainty that there was
> an ignition of the oils that regulate the brake system.
>
> "The brake system works with oil, which is constantly under pressure when
> the space explodes or the tank that has the oil and the other systems is
> suddenly released, gas appears and catches fire," he noted.
>
> According to ERT information, there were 2.5 tons of oil in each engine,
> i.e. five tons of oil in both trains.
>
> The head-on collision raised the temperature above the auto-ignition limit,
> ruptured the container, spewed out the oils, caught fire and created this
> huge mushroom
>
> It is noted that according to the investigations of the Police and the Fire
> Brigade, the commercial train was carrying sheet metal, fruit and grain and
> not any flammable material.
>
> "The chain of human errors must be found"
>
> Speaking about the "human error", Mr. Glavopoulos concluded by saying: "The
> right of the prime minister is that he did not name who made the human error
> and this must be investigated. Everyone thinks that the human error is the
> fault of the station master Larissa. Indeed, the last chain of human errors
> occurred with the handling of the station master. However, the chain of
> human error that led to the last error should be investigated if it is an
> error and if there is a written telegram that a commercial train is coming.
> When that's resolved, we'll start going to the next step."
>

Oil [tick]
Sheet metal [tick]

But why does a locomotive need 2.5 tonnes of oil for the brakes?
Transformer cooling I could understand needing significant quantities, but
brakes? Anna, if you’re reading this, do you know how much oil a UK rail
power unit typically contains for its brakes?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 15:43:45 +0000, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 04/03/2023 12:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ttvbqa$vei9$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:59:06 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night,
>>>>>>>>>>> to tell
>>>>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of
>>>>>>>>>>> down)?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>>>> course what
>>>>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if
>>>>>>>>> he was
>>>>>>>>> expecting to).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>>>>>>>> track.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route
>>>>>>> knowledge?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>>>>>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
>>>>>> driver for more than week.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's different to route knowledge.
>>>>
>>>> Don't be absurd. It's very specifically route knowledge when the tracks
>>>> are bi-directional. So actually the original question might have been
>>>> better posed as "Was he in fact indisputably on the wrong track, and if
>>>> so, how would he have noticed".
>>>
>>> Which is the wrong track in Greece, do they run on the left or the right
>>> in normal sevice?
>>
>> The line has been reported as having both tracks bi-directional -
>> which seems un-necessary unless it enables an express to pass a slower
>> one in the same direction, which would actually reduce track capacity
>> because of waiting for an oncoming train to clear the line.
>>
>
> It's appropriate for relatively lightly used mixed traffic lines and saves
> fitting passing loops. I've experienced it on HS1, when a Eurostar overtook
> our chartered Javelin wrong-line. Also in Germany, whan an ICE T overtook
> our steam train wrong line. Obviously, in both cases, the signalling was
> working correctly.

Or for some more heavily used ones. I noticed when our late running train
for Geneva Airport was waiting to depart Geneva Cornavin. We had been
exactly the same number of minutes late since leaving Milan and we should
be leaving Cornavin now, but the train at the next platform, also for the
Airport was due to leave now. It set off, and a few seconds later so did
we. We rapidly moved onto a dual track line and then overtook the other
train on the other track. I don’t know how that line is normally worked,
but I’d suspect it’s not configured as two single lines.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 15:43:45 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 04/03/2023 12:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ttvbqa$vei9$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:59:06 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night,
>>>>>>>>>>>> to tell
>>>>>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of
>>>>>>>>>>>> down)?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>>>>> course what
>>>>>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if
>>>>>>>>>> he was
>>>>>>>>>> expecting to).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>>>>>>>>> track.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route
>>>>>>>> knowledge?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>>>>>>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
>>>>>>> driver for more than week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's different to route knowledge.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't be absurd. It's very specifically route knowledge when the tracks
>>>>> are bi-directional. So actually the original question might have been
>>>>> better posed as "Was he in fact indisputably on the wrong track, and if
>>>>> so, how would he have noticed".
>>>>
>>>> Which is the wrong track in Greece, do they run on the left or the right
>>>> in normal sevice?
>>>
>>> The line has been reported as having both tracks bi-directional -
>>> which seems un-necessary unless it enables an express to pass a slower
>>> one in the same direction, which would actually reduce track capacity
>>> because of waiting for an oncoming train to clear the line.
>>>
>>
>> It's appropriate for relatively lightly used mixed traffic lines and saves
>> fitting passing loops. I've experienced it on HS1, when a Eurostar overtook
>> our chartered Javelin wrong-line. Also in Germany, whan an ICE T overtook
>> our steam train wrong line. Obviously, in both cases, the signalling was
>> working correctly.
>
> Or for some more heavily used ones. I noticed when our late running train
> for Geneva Airport was waiting to depart Geneva Cornavin. We had been
> exactly the same number of minutes late since leaving Milan and we should
> be leaving Cornavin now, but the train at the next platform, also for the
> Airport was due to leave now. It set off, and a few seconds later so did
> we. We rapidly moved onto a dual track line and then overtook the other
> train on the other track. I don’t know how that line is normally worked,
> but I’d suspect it’s not configured as two single lines.
>

Perhaps it's actually a four-track line at that point? Station throats can
be confusing.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 15:43:45 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 04/03/2023 12:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ttvbqa$vei9$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:59:06 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> down)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>>>>>> course what
>>>>>>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if
>>>>>>>>>>> he was
>>>>>>>>>>> expecting to).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>>>>>>>>>> track.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route
>>>>>>>>> knowledge?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>>>>>>>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
>>>>>>>> driver for more than week.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's different to route knowledge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't be absurd. It's very specifically route knowledge when the tracks
>>>>>> are bi-directional. So actually the original question might have been
>>>>>> better posed as "Was he in fact indisputably on the wrong track, and if
>>>>>> so, how would he have noticed".
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is the wrong track in Greece, do they run on the left or the right
>>>>> in normal sevice?
>>>>
>>>> The line has been reported as having both tracks bi-directional -
>>>> which seems un-necessary unless it enables an express to pass a slower
>>>> one in the same direction, which would actually reduce track capacity
>>>> because of waiting for an oncoming train to clear the line.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's appropriate for relatively lightly used mixed traffic lines and saves
>>> fitting passing loops. I've experienced it on HS1, when a Eurostar overtook
>>> our chartered Javelin wrong-line. Also in Germany, whan an ICE T overtook
>>> our steam train wrong line. Obviously, in both cases, the signalling was
>>> working correctly.
>>
>> Or for some more heavily used ones. I noticed when our late running train
>> for Geneva Airport was waiting to depart Geneva Cornavin. We had been
>> exactly the same number of minutes late since leaving Milan and we should
>> be leaving Cornavin now, but the train at the next platform, also for the
>> Airport was due to leave now. It set off, and a few seconds later so did
>> we. We rapidly moved onto a dual track line and then overtook the other
>> train on the other track. I don’t know how that line is normally worked,
>> but I’d suspect it’s not configured as two single lines.
>>
>
> Perhaps it's actually a four-track line at that point? Station throats can
> be confusing.

There are 4 tracks heading west out of the station but then two peel off
northwards towards the airport, there are then some junctions, and then two
tracks terminate in the airport itself. The two trains ran in to the
airport station in parallel.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> It's not unusual for refrigerated containers to have an onboard engine
>>> to power the refrigeration system independently, and fuel for such a
>>> system is naturally a fire hazard.
>>
>> Tempi: The critical questions of the tragedy and the estimates for the
>> causes of the explosion
>>
>> It is believed that the brake oils ignited, which is why there was an
>> explosion after the crash
>>
>> Newsroom
>> 04.03.2023 • 17:32
>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562307464/tempi-ta-krisima-erotimata-tis-tragodias-kai-oi-ektimiseis-gia-ta-aitia-tis-ekrixis/
>>
>> Critical questions about the "chain of mistakes" that led to the tragedy in
>> Tempi , as well as an explanation for the explosion caused after the
>> collision of the two trains, were raised by Christos Glavopoulos, Mechanical
>> - electrical engineer and forensic expert.
>>
>> The first question he raised, speaking to ERT, is whether the station master
>> Larisis knew that the commercial train was moving on the same line as IC62.
>> "It has not been made public if he knew that he was really sending the
>> passenger train on the same line, this action cannot be logically
>> explained," noted Mr. Glavopoulos.
>>
>> Secondly, according to him, by looking at his console, the station master
>> could have seen the approach process of the two trains, i.e. that they are
>> going to collide. “What the technical experts will have to investigate is
>> whether the console itself actually shows. How can we draw a conclusion
>> when we don't know two key points? Firstly, if it had been informed by
>> document and secondly, if the console really shows what it should show", he
>> said characteristically.
>>
>> Furthermore, he said that the Railway Regulatory Authority has to answer a
>> series of questions as it audits, collects and deals with problems of OSE,
>> ERGOSE, TRAINOSE, Hellenic Train and anyone else involved in the country's
>> railway project.
>>
>> The "black boxes" of trains
>>
>> Mr. Glavopoulos also emphasized the "black boxes" of the two trains that
>> contain the tachograph and, in all probability, the various conversations
>> that took place between the train driver and the station master. The
>> problem, of course, is that due to the high temperatures, the "black boxes"
>> are likely to have been damaged.
>>
>> As he explains: “The black box with the tachograph readings of the
>> conversations is an electronic system, which I hope was not destroyed by the
>> explosion. In all the railway accidents we have been involved in, under
>> normal circumstances the investigating authority instructs the OSE, "take
>> out the tachograph and tell us what it says". In this particular case, I
>> would like the appointed experts to be present when the tachograph is
>> extracted, if possible, and during the investigation and study of the
>> tachograph records – which should be done by independent experts and not by
>> the OSE itself - so as to ensure its integrity".
>>
>> What caused the explosion?
>>
>> Regarding the dozens of meters high "mushroom" that rose up after the
>> explosion, the forensic expert expressed with great certainty that there was
>> an ignition of the oils that regulate the brake system.
>>
>> "The brake system works with oil, which is constantly under pressure when
>> the space explodes or the tank that has the oil and the other systems is
>> suddenly released, gas appears and catches fire," he noted.
>>
>> According to ERT information, there were 2.5 tons of oil in each engine,
>> i.e. five tons of oil in both trains.
>>
>> The head-on collision raised the temperature above the auto-ignition limit,
>> ruptured the container, spewed out the oils, caught fire and created this
>> huge mushroom
>>
>> It is noted that according to the investigations of the Police and the Fire
>> Brigade, the commercial train was carrying sheet metal, fruit and grain and
>> not any flammable material.
>>
>> "The chain of human errors must be found"
>>
>> Speaking about the "human error", Mr. Glavopoulos concluded by saying: "The
>> right of the prime minister is that he did not name who made the human error
>> and this must be investigated. Everyone thinks that the human error is the
>> fault of the station master Larissa. Indeed, the last chain of human errors
>> occurred with the handling of the station master. However, the chain of
>> human error that led to the last error should be investigated if it is an
>> error and if there is a written telegram that a commercial train is coming.
>> When that's resolved, we'll start going to the next step."
>>
>
> Oil [tick]
> Sheet metal [tick]
>
> But why does a locomotive need 2.5 tonnes of oil for the brakes?
> Transformer cooling I could understand needing significant quantities, but
> brakes? Anna, if you’re reading this, do you know how much oil a UK rail
> power unit typically contains for its brakes?
>

None. Hydraulic brakes on trains would be very unusual. What I suspect it
could refer to is oil cooling for rheostatic brakes, perhaps?

It sounds about the right quantity for transformer cooling oil, tbh.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>>> Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>
>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>
>>>> It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>>> wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>>> signalling system.
>>>
>>> That may well be the case, but the question was whether the driver would
>>> be *aware* he was running wrong line.
>>
>> Obviously
>
> And of course if bidirectional running was common then there is no a priori
> wrong line.
>

There will still usually be a right line and a wrong line, IMX. The only
places with no defined 'normal' direction for multiple lines are station
throats eg Paddington and Cardiff.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 15:43:45 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 04/03/2023 12:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ttvbqa$vei9$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:59:06 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ttv68s$utdg$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:24:28 on Sat, 4 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ttt48k$lti5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:37:56 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> course what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Headlights, the trains have headlights,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They also have tunnels and bends; hence with restricted sighting.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the driver will have noticed passing over points (or not, if
>>>>>>>>>>>> he was
>>>>>>>>>>>> expecting to).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, that's part of both the route knowledge, and observation of the
>>>>>>>>>>> track.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How do we know that the Greek railways insist on driver route
>>>>>>>>>> knowledge?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>>>>>>>>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
>>>>>>>>> driver for more than week.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's different to route knowledge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't be absurd. It's very specifically route knowledge when the tracks
>>>>>>> are bi-directional. So actually the original question might have been
>>>>>>> better posed as "Was he in fact indisputably on the wrong track, and if
>>>>>>> so, how would he have noticed".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is the wrong track in Greece, do they run on the left or the right
>>>>>> in normal sevice?
>>>>>
>>>>> The line has been reported as having both tracks bi-directional -
>>>>> which seems un-necessary unless it enables an express to pass a slower
>>>>> one in the same direction, which would actually reduce track capacity
>>>>> because of waiting for an oncoming train to clear the line.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's appropriate for relatively lightly used mixed traffic lines and saves
>>>> fitting passing loops. I've experienced it on HS1, when a Eurostar overtook
>>>> our chartered Javelin wrong-line. Also in Germany, whan an ICE T overtook
>>>> our steam train wrong line. Obviously, in both cases, the signalling was
>>>> working correctly.
>>>
>>> Or for some more heavily used ones. I noticed when our late running train
>>> for Geneva Airport was waiting to depart Geneva Cornavin. We had been
>>> exactly the same number of minutes late since leaving Milan and we should
>>> be leaving Cornavin now, but the train at the next platform, also for the
>>> Airport was due to leave now. It set off, and a few seconds later so did
>>> we. We rapidly moved onto a dual track line and then overtook the other
>>> train on the other track. I don’t know how that line is normally worked,
>>> but I’d suspect it’s not configured as two single lines.
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps it's actually a four-track line at that point? Station throats can
>> be confusing.
>
> There are 4 tracks heading west out of the station but then two peel off
> northwards towards the airport, there are then some junctions, and then two
> tracks terminate in the airport itself. The two trains ran in to the
> airport station in parallel.

I suppose the tracks would be bidirectionally signalled, but other than in
the station throats, there will be a 'normal' direction for each track. If
no trains were leaving the airport station, both could be used for
approaching trains.

On 04/03/2023 18:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>>>> Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>
>>>>> It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>>>> wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>>>> signalling system.
>>>>
>>>> That may well be the case, but the question was whether the driver would
>>>> be *aware* he was running wrong line.
>>>
>>> Obviously
>>
>> And of course if bidirectional running was common then there is no a priori
>> wrong line.
>
> There will still usually be a right line and a wrong line, IMX. The only
> places with no defined 'normal' direction for multiple lines are station
> throats eg Paddington and Cardiff.

I think the point is that it may only be "wrong" in railway jargon, not
in the layman's sense of "incorrect". It may (or may not) be so common
for trains to run wrong line at that point that a driver would accept
either route without question.

Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
> On 04/03/2023 18:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>>>>> Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>>>>> wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>>>>> signalling system.
>>>>>
>>>>> That may well be the case, but the question was whether the driver would
>>>>> be *aware* he was running wrong line.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously
>>>
>>> And of course if bidirectional running was common then there is no a priori
>>> wrong line.
>>
>> There will still usually be a right line and a wrong line, IMX. The only
>> places with no defined 'normal' direction for multiple lines are station
>> throats eg Paddington and Cardiff.
>
> I think the point is that it may only be "wrong" in railway jargon, not
> in the layman's sense of "incorrect". It may (or may not) be so common
> for trains to run wrong line at that point that a driver would accept
> either route without question.
>

I don't know if we'll ever hear, but I wonder why the express passenger
train was routed wrong line at all? Obviously whoever did it didn't know
about the freight train, but even without it, why deliberately route it
wrong line? Was it, perhaps, due to overtake a slow train?

Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
> On 04/03/2023 18:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>>>>> Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>>>>> wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>>>>> signalling system.
>>>>>
>>>>> That may well be the case, but the question was whether the driver would
>>>>> be *aware* he was running wrong line.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously
>>>
>>> And of course if bidirectional running was common then there is no a priori
>>> wrong line.
>>
>> There will still usually be a right line and a wrong line, IMX. The only
>> places with no defined 'normal' direction for multiple lines are station
>> throats eg Paddington and Cardiff.
>
> I think the point is that it may only be "wrong" in railway jargon, not
> in the layman's sense of "incorrect". It may (or may not) be so common
> for trains to run wrong line at that point that a driver would accept
> either route without question.
>

Yes, what I mean is that for bidirectionally-worked double track, there
will be a normal direction of travel for each track, rather than trains
using either line randomly. That's entirely separate from whether local
rules and practice mean that crews will accept being routed onto the
bidirectional track in the 'not-normal' direction without questioning it,
particularly at night when there may be engineering work for example.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 04/03/2023 11:51, Roland Perry wrote:
> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a train
> driver for more than week.

Assuming that your train's headlights show enough of the opposite track
for you to tell which track you were on, when it's dark outside.

But I'm sure they would do. The problem is if that it not unusual: there
maybe routes where routes are signalled bidirectionally and you may be
switched to either track. In the UK, you'd expect "feathers" to show
that you were being switched to the one that was less normal, but maybe
other countries' signalling is less informative.

On 04/03/2023 16:48, Recliner wrote:
> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 15:43:45 +0000, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Which is the wrong track in Greece, do they run on the left or the right
>>> in normal sevice?
>>
>> The line has been reported as having both tracks bi-directional -
>> which seems un-necessary unless it enables an express to pass a slower
>> one in the same direction, which would actually reduce track capacity
>> because of waiting for an oncoming train to clear the line.
>
> It's appropriate for relatively lightly used mixed traffic lines and saves
> fitting passing loops. I've experienced it on HS1, when a Eurostar overtook
> our chartered Javelin wrong-line. Also in Germany, whan an ICE T overtook
> our steam train wrong line. Obviously, in both cases, the signalling was
> working correctly.

I've noticed goods trains running wrong line for significant distances
through the Swindon area on a couple of occasions in the last few weeks, to
allow passenger trains to overtake on the right line.

One of these occasions was earlier this week after disruption near London,
when a queue of up trains had built up and there were no down trains for a
long period. The other was late on a Sunday evening and might just have been
because it was quiet there was an opportunity to allow the goods train to be
overtaken without needing to put it in a loop.

It makes sense for the goods train rather than the passenger train to be
routed over the wrong line because the speed restriction is usually lower,
which will affect the goods train less or not at all, and it allows the
passenger train to more easily stop at its usual platforms. The longer
signalling sections on the wrong line would also be a factor.

Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
> On 04/03/2023 16:48, Recliner wrote:
>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 15:43:45 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Which is the wrong track in Greece, do they run on the left or the right
>>>> in normal sevice?
>>>
>>> The line has been reported as having both tracks bi-directional -
>>> which seems un-necessary unless it enables an express to pass a slower
>>> one in the same direction, which would actually reduce track capacity
>>> because of waiting for an oncoming train to clear the line.
>>
>> It's appropriate for relatively lightly used mixed traffic lines and saves
>> fitting passing loops. I've experienced it on HS1, when a Eurostar overtook
>> our chartered Javelin wrong-line. Also in Germany, whan an ICE T overtook
>> our steam train wrong line. Obviously, in both cases, the signalling was
>> working correctly.
>
> I've noticed goods trains running wrong line for significant distances
> through the Swindon area on a couple of occasions in the last few weeks, to
> allow passenger trains to overtake on the right line.
>
> One of these occasions was earlier this week after disruption near London,
> when a queue of up trains had built up and there were no down trains for a
> long period. The other was late on a Sunday evening and might just have been
> because it was quiet there was an opportunity to allow the goods train to be
> overtaken without needing to put it in a loop.
>
> It makes sense for the goods train rather than the passenger train to be
> routed over the wrong line because the speed restriction is usually lower,
> which will affect the goods train less or not at all, and it allows the
> passenger train to more easily stop at its usual platforms. The longer
> signalling sections on the wrong line would also be a factor.
>

Yes, agreed.

On 04/03/2023 22:51, NY wrote:
> On 04/03/2023 11:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a
>> train driver for more than week.
>
> Assuming that your train's headlights show enough of the opposite track
> for you to tell which track you were on, when it's dark outside.
>
> But I'm sure they would do. The problem is if that it not unusual: there
> maybe routes where routes are signalled bidirectionally and you may be
> switched to either track. In the UK, you'd expect "feathers" to show
> that you were being switched to the one that was less normal, but maybe
> other countries' signalling is less informative.

I'd expect that the drivers have to know which way the points are set so
that, when the points are normal, trains can maintain a reasonable speed
rather than having to slow down "just in case" before every crossover.

Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
> On 04/03/2023 22:51, NY wrote:
>> On 04/03/2023 11:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> You'd have to be super-inattentive not to pick up things like "which
>>> side of the tracks am I supposed to be on", having had a job as a
>>> train driver for more than week.
>>
>> Assuming that your train's headlights show enough of the opposite track
>> for you to tell which track you were on, when it's dark outside.
>>
>> But I'm sure they would do. The problem is if that it not unusual: there
>> maybe routes where routes are signalled bidirectionally and you may be
>> switched to either track. In the UK, you'd expect "feathers" to show
>> that you were being switched to the one that was less normal, but maybe
>> other countries' signalling is less informative.
>
> I'd expect that the drivers have to know which way the points are set so
> that, when the points are normal, trains can maintain a reasonable speed
> rather than having to slow down "just in case" before every crossover.
>

Surely the signals would tell them of an impending switch? They would in
the UK. We do have a recent UK example of what happens when a driver misses
the signals:

<https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2022/05/17/lumo-803-crossed-points-at-three-times-the-speed-limit>

<https://www.gov.uk/government/news/overspeeding-incident-at-peterborough-station>

In message <tu028o$11kee$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:22:16 on Sat, 4 Mar
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>>>> Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at night, to tell
>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of course what
>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>
>>>>> It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>>>> wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>>>> signalling system.
>>>>
>>>> That may well be the case, but the question was whether the driver would
>>>> be *aware* he was running wrong line.
>>>
>>> Obviously
>>
>> And of course if bidirectional running was common then there is no a priori
>> wrong line.
>
>There will still usually be a right line and a wrong line, IMX. The only
>places with no defined 'normal' direction for multiple lines are station
>throats eg Paddington and Cardiff.

It's commonplace for trains to use the bidirectional facility between
Ely North unction and Ely station (including for "overtaking"
manoeuvres[1] mentioned in some of the reporting from Greece). But
perhaps that could be considered a 2km station throat?

[1] Southbound passenger train overtaking a stationary freight, usually.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tu0hhc$134qc$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:42:52 on Sat, 4 Mar
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>> On 04/03/2023 18:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 06:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <emv30i5fnvefa2c0jsbtm6nn14a6dmsv38@4ax.com>, at 14:07:04 on
>>>>>> Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 13:50:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <ttsfau$jqq1$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Fri, 3 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a matter of interest, how easy is it for a driver, at
>>>>>>>>>night, to tell
>>>>>>>>> that he has been routed onto the wrong track (eg up instead of down)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That line has OHL, and it's therefore pretty obvious. And of
>>>>>>>>course what
>>>>>>>> "route knowledge is all about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It may be that wrong line running is common over there, so the driver
>>>>>>> wasn't perturbed by it? He would have assumed he was protected by the
>>>>>>> signalling system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That may well be the case, but the question was whether the driver would
>>>>>> be *aware* he was running wrong line.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously
>>>>
>>>> And of course if bidirectional running was common then there is no a priori
>>>> wrong line.
>>>
>>> There will still usually be a right line and a wrong line, IMX. The only
>>> places with no defined 'normal' direction for multiple lines are station
>>> throats eg Paddington and Cardiff.
>>
>> I think the point is that it may only be "wrong" in railway jargon, not
>> in the layman's sense of "incorrect". It may (or may not) be so common
>> for trains to run wrong line at that point that a driver would accept
>> either route without question.
>
>Yes, what I mean is that for bidirectionally-worked double track, there
>will be a normal direction of travel for each track, rather than trains
>using either line randomly. That's entirely separate from whether local
>rules and practice mean that crews will accept being routed onto the
>bidirectional track in the 'not-normal' direction without questioning it,
>particularly at night when there may be engineering work for example.

What's "abnormal" though. As well as the overtaking I described a few
moments ago, I've written here recently about the practice for pairs of
trains heading from Ely to Norwich or Peterborough to travel side by
side up as far as Ely North Junction.

I haven't studied them closely enough to know if they use the "up" line
to access Norwich, even they don't absolutely need to (which observably
happens several times a day), but I suppose we could look at the real
time signaling maps.
--
Roland Perry