On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:48:13 +0100, YTC#1
<bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:

>On 21/09/2021 17:21, wessie wrote:
>>>> CO2 is not used for cattle or sheep.
>>>>
>>> Why not?

>> cattle & sheep are used to being herded into single animal width
>> channels for routine health checks, shearing & sorting so they get less
>> stressed in the abbatoir, making this method quick.
>>
>> pigs get stressed a lot easier so are kept together as a group before
>> being gassed - the publicity will say this is to make the process more
>> humane. The reality is that stress hormones can make pork taste awful
>> which reduces the value of the meat.

Just a thought - if the CO2 "stunning" method produces less stress
doesn't that make it more "humane" by definition?

The rationale that it's to increase profits is all well and good, but
does that make it a_bad_thing?

In many ways it's a win-win situation. Less suffering=>lower
stress=>better taste=>higher profits.

>It is enough to make me turn veggie[1]. But not quite.

I've killed animals to eat, it's not as easy as it sounds. Never made
me want to stop eating meat though, because why?

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in
news:ir00jqF2tppU2@mid.individual.net:

> wessie wrote:
>
>> to make ammonium nitrate you need
>> a source of ammonia. This is made via the Haber Process
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process#Sources_of_hydrogen which
>> needs a source of hydrogen. Methane has 4 hydrogen atoms which are
>> harvested via steam reforming. This leaves a spare carbon atom which
>> is oxydised to make the CO2 by product.
>
> Same problems, different year ...
>
> <https://www.fdf.org.uk/globalassets/resources/publications/falling-fla
> t-lessons-from-the-2018-uk-co2-shortage.pdf>
>

yes, I noted some articles from 2018 as well when reading up about the
subject. Like so many things, this current situation was entirely
predictable but with our system of short termism and kicking the can down
the road, little was put in place to mitigate future risks.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in
news:ir012vF33flU1@mid.individual.net:

> sweller wrote:
>
>>>>> So 'stunning' pigs and chickens in abattoirs with CO2 isn't
>>>>> humane?
>>>>
>>>> If they really do that, then probably not.
>>>
>>> We're being told that they do do that, hence the looming meat
>>> shortage due to CO2 shortage
>>
>> I thought CO2 was used in the packaging process rather then the
>> killing.
>
> I thought meat tended to be vacuum packed? I dunno I don't eat the
> stuff, but not for trendy veggie/vegan reasons. Part-baked bread,
> ready meals and salads tend to be packed in an inert/protective
> atmosphere ...
>

Joints of meat are often vac packed and packs of bacon from the cheaper
end of the range.

Packs of chicken joints or chops are often neatly arranged in a tray
with a film cover, especially if provessed by adding a marinade etc. By
putting CO2 in the tray before sealing you extend the shelf life as the
aerobic bacteria cannot multiply (as you achieve with vac packing). It's
all about presentation - consumers are more likely to pick up that tray
of "added value" chicken[1] if the legs and thighs coated in bright
orange gloop are neatly arranged. Vac pack them like they do with pork
ribs and you have to stick them in a cardboard carton as they look
horrible.

CO2 is also added to those bags of salad. Just like adding fizzy water
to a vase of cut flowers, the CO2 helps to keep the salad leaves alive
longer.

[1] just compare the price per kilo of the added value chicken compared
to buying plain chicken and adding your own marinade. Often 2x the price
per kilo.

On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 18:30:51 +0100, Tim <nobody@home.co.uk> wrote:

>On 19/09/2021 12:32, Ace wrote:

>> Nothing wrong with playing with toy soldiers. But ultimately it's
>> still just playing with toy soldiers however much time you devote to
>> accurate recreations of uniforms and badges.
>>
>>
>Blimey if a lad cannot paint model figures I don't know what you're
>expecting. This was the 1970s. I also take exception to "just playing",

I'll count that as a bite, shall I? ;)

>we were "playing" war games, 20 sided dice, strange mathematical
>probability tables etc.

I bet you were into D&D as well, weren't you?

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On 9/22/2021 2:37 AM, Ace wrote:
>
>
> I've killed animals to eat, it's not as easy as it sounds. Never made
> me want to stop eating meat though, because why?
>
I killed 50,000 chickens when I worked on a farm, due to an epidemic of
Newcastle's disease. I used a variety of methods, but the easiest was to
just grab one by the head and give it a quick flick around in a circle.
Breaks the neck instantly.
But they also made me give up eating farmed meat, when I read the
ingredients of what they ate. Nothing real, just a long, long list of
chemicals.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 22/09/2021 16:20, Turby wrote:
> On 9/22/2021 2:37 AM, Ace wrote:
>>
>>
>> I've killed animals to eat, it's not as easy as it sounds. Never made
>> me want to stop eating meat though, because why?
>>
> I killed 50,000 chickens when I worked on a farm, due to an epidemic of
> Newcastle's disease.

Is that when they lose their coats and trousers, even in the winter?

Maybe Eddie can help.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
https://the-ytc1-shed.blogspot.com/ Deprected(http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/)
There *is* an alternative! https://www.libreoffice.org/

On 22/09/2021 11:09, wessie wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in
> news:ir012vF33flU1@mid.individual.net:
>
>> sweller wrote:
>>
>>>>>> So 'stunning' pigs and chickens in abattoirs with CO2 isn't
>>>>>> humane?
>>>>>
>>>>> If they really do that, then probably not.
>>>>
>>>> We're being told that they do do that, hence the looming meat
>>>> shortage due to CO2 shortage
>>>
>>> I thought CO2 was used in the packaging process rather then the
>>> killing.
>>
>> I thought meat tended to be vacuum packed? I dunno I don't eat the
>> stuff, but not for trendy veggie/vegan reasons. Part-baked bread,
>> ready meals and salads tend to be packed in an inert/protective
>> atmosphere ...
>>
>
> Joints of meat are often vac packed and packs of bacon from the cheaper
> end of the range.
>
> Packs of chicken joints or chops are often neatly arranged in a tray
> with a film cover, especially if provessed by adding a marinade etc. By
> putting CO2 in the tray before sealing you extend the shelf life as the
> aerobic bacteria cannot multiply (as you achieve with vac packing). It's
> all about presentation - consumers are more likely to pick up that tray
> of "added value" chicken[1] if the legs and thighs coated in bright

People are stupid though.

> orange gloop are neatly arranged. Vac pack them like they do with pork
> ribs and you have to stick them in a cardboard carton as they look
> horrible.

>
> CO2 is also added to those bags of salad. Just like adding fizzy water
> to a vase of cut flowers, the CO2 helps to keep the salad leaves alive
> longer.
>
I know supermarkets are convenient, but we are our own worst enemies.

> [1] just compare the price per kilo of the added value chicken compared
> to buying plain chicken and adding your own marinade. Often 2x the price
> per kilo.
>

The biggest lesson I learnt from travelling these last 10 years or so
has been to just buy local, and fresh. I'm lucky to have a decent
butcher (he supplies all the local pubs) and some farm shop[1] nearby

[1] just been for a 10 miles cycle ride for the fruit and veg.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
https://the-ytc1-shed.blogspot.com/ Deprected(http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/)
There *is* an alternative! https://www.libreoffice.org/

On 22/09/2021 07:25, Andy Burns wrote:
> wessie wrote:
>
>> to make ammonium nitrate you need
>> a source of ammonia. This is made via the Haber Process
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process#Sources_of_hydrogen which
>> needs
>> a source of hydrogen. Methane has 4 hydrogen atoms which are harvested
>> via
>> steam reforming. This leaves a spare carbon atom which is oxydised to
>> make
>> the CO2 by product.
>
> Same problems, different year ...
>
> <https://www.fdf.org.uk/globalassets/resources/publications/falling-flat-lessons-from-the-2018-uk-co2-shortage.pdf>

An interesting report - thanks for linking to that.

I notice that the recommendation to increase the amount of BioEthanol in
petrol has been acted on - I wonder if that was just a coincidence given
that it as happened so quickly?

The report seems to omit one potential option: ammonium nitrate can be
easily stored (Beirut notwithstanding) so the government could ask the
fertiliser industry to even out their production over the year, taking
turns to put their plants into maintenance so that only one plant is
down at any one time. The 'excess' production that this would cause over
summer is what would be stored.

Is that a nonsense suggestion?
--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

Bruce Horrocks <07.013@scorecrow.com> wrote in
news:1d13b447-6e0b-7ae5-d992-13a084b335ee@scorecrow.com:

> On 22/09/2021 07:25, Andy Burns wrote:
>> wessie wrote:
>>
>>> to make ammonium nitrate you need
>>> a source of ammonia. This is made via the Haber Process
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process#Sources_of_hydrogen
>>> which needs
>>> a source of hydrogen. Methane has 4 hydrogen atoms which are
>>> harvested via
>>> steam reforming. This leaves a spare carbon atom which is oxydised
>>> to make
>>> the CO2 by product.
>>
>> Same problems, different year ...
>>
>> <https://www.fdf.org.uk/globalassets/resources/publications/falling-
fl
>> at-lessons-from-the-2018-uk-co2-shortage.pdf>
>
> An interesting report - thanks for linking to that.
>
> I notice that the recommendation to increase the amount of BioEthanol
> in petrol has been acted on - I wonder if that was just a coincidence
> given that it as happened so quickly?
>
> The report seems to omit one potential option: ammonium nitrate can be
> easily stored (Beirut notwithstanding) so the government could ask the
> fertiliser industry to even out their production over the year, taking
> turns to put their plants into maintenance so that only one plant is
> down at any one time. The 'excess' production that this would cause
> over summer is what would be stored.
>
> Is that a nonsense suggestion?

there would be quite a cost in terms of safe storage of a very
combustible material. Also a cash flow impact as material costs and
wages would need to be paid many months before the main product is paid
for by farmers.

On 9/22/2021 8:49 AM, YTC#1 wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 16:20, Turby wrote:
>> On 9/22/2021 2:37 AM, Ace wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I've killed animals to eat, it's not as easy as it sounds. Never made
>>> me want to stop eating meat though, because why?
>>>
>> I killed 50,000 chickens when I worked on a farm, due to an epidemic
>> of Newcastle's disease.
>
> Is that when they lose their coats and trousers, even in the winter?
>
Nah. I don't know how it got that name, but it affects the
nervous/muscle control. The head twists around, the wings flail, and
they do a spastic dance. If you get me drunk enough, I can do a fairly
decent imitation.
It doesn't last long, though, It kills within days.

> Maybe Eddie can help.
>

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 22/09/2021 19:16, Turby wrote:
> On 9/22/2021 8:49 AM, YTC#1 wrote:
>> On 22/09/2021 16:20, Turby wrote:
>>> On 9/22/2021 2:37 AM, Ace wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've killed animals to eat, it's not as easy as it sounds. Never made
>>>> me want to stop eating meat though, because why?
>>>>
>>> I killed 50,000 chickens when I worked on a farm, due to an epidemic
>>> of Newcastle's disease.
>>
>> Is that when they lose their coats and trousers, even in the winter?
>>
> Nah. I don't know how it got that name, but it affects the
> nervous/muscle control. The head twists around, the wings flail, and
> they do a spastic dance.

Thinks..... sounds just like a night on The Side in Newcastle.
>
>> Maybe Eddie can help.
>>
>
>
>
>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
https://the-ytc1-shed.blogspot.com/ Deprected(http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/)
There *is* an alternative! https://www.libreoffice.org/

Bruce Horrocks wrote:

> I notice that the recommendation to increase the amount of BioEthanol in petrol
> has been acted on - I wonder if that was just a coincidence given that it as
> happened so quickly?

But does it give a lie to the claim that E10 fuel emits less CO2?

I mean if we're adding twice as much bio-ethanol to petrol, there'll be twice
the CO2 by-product, presumably vented to atmosphere after it's killed pigs or
belched out after the cola/beer is drunk?

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in
news:ir1bn2Fb4ehU1@mid.individual.net:

> Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>
>> I notice that the recommendation to increase the amount of BioEthanol
>> in petrol has been acted on - I wonder if that was just a coincidence
>> given that it as happened so quickly?
>
> But does it give a lie to the claim that E10 fuel emits less CO2?
>
> I mean if we're adding twice as much bio-ethanol to petrol, there'll
> be twice the CO2 by-product, presumably vented to atmosphere after
> it's killed pigs or belched out after the cola/beer is drunk?
>

but those carbon atoms in the ethanol originate from airborne CO2, fixed by
plants into starch or sugar that is fermented into the alcohol. They are
just returned to the atmosphere where they came from.

Petrol, coal & methane have carbon locked up from millions of years ago
that is added to the atmosphere as it is burnt.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 19:20:46 +0100, YTC#1
<bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:

>On 22/09/2021 19:16, Turby wrote:
>> they do a spastic dance.
>
>Thinks..... sounds just like a night on The Side in Newcastle.

Not the Funky Chicken?

--

-Pip

On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 10:09:13 -0000 (UTC), wessie
<willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:

>CO2 is also added to those bags of salad. Just like adding fizzy water
>to a vase of cut flowers, the CO2 helps to keep the salad leaves alive
>longer.

Never heard of that before.

--

-Pip

Pipl <pluscher@live.co.uk> wrote in news:ef7nkgh3m4h9bph0aohj5g5gc950mq79c8@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 10:09:13 -0000 (UTC), wessie
> <willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:
>
>>CO2 is also added to those bags of salad. Just like adding fizzy water
>>to a vase of cut flowers, the CO2 helps to keep the salad leaves alive
>>longer.
>
> Never heard of that before.
>

this from 2005

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/salad-what-s-in-the-bag-5349186.html

scroll to the end

On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:49:18 +0100, YTC#1
<bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:

>On 22/09/2021 16:20, Turby wrote:
>> On 9/22/2021 2:37 AM, Ace wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I've killed animals to eat, it's not as easy as it sounds. Never made
>>> me want to stop eating meat though, because why?
>>>
>> I killed 50,000 chickens when I worked on a farm, due to an epidemic of
>> Newcastle's disease.

>Is that when they lose their coats and trousers, even in the winter?
>
>Maybe Eddie can help.

heh
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 22/09/2021 19:41, Andy Burns wrote:
> Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>
>> I notice that the recommendation to increase the amount of BioEthanol
>> in petrol has been acted on - I wonder if that was just a coincidence
>> given that it as happened so quickly?
>
> But does it give a lie to the claim that E10 fuel emits less CO2?
>
> I mean if we're adding twice as much bio-ethanol to petrol, there'll be
> twice the CO2 by-product, presumably vented to atmosphere after it's
> killed pigs or belched out after the cola/beer is drunk?
Its not the first time a government has attempted to reach one
environmental target whilst ignoring collateral damage in another.

I spent most of my former career as an environmental scientist and there
was phase of the government creating a mantra that burning waste (timber
products specifically) was adding to the CO2 burden which was damaging
the ozone layer (remember the ozone layer?). That was true, however,
what they then did was encourage people to allow stuff to rot instead.
This is BAD, very BAD because although the methane produced is not
classed as a greenhouse gas it has what was/is known as an ozone
depletion potential of around 20 times that of CO2! Methane though was
not amongst the targets for reduction - which made this policy ok in
gubbmint eyes.

So, the rule is, if you have a choice between burning some old
fencing/bush clippings (!) and allowing them to rot away, choose burning
every time*.

HTH, Chris
*But it needs to be a nice hot fire because low temperature bonfires
release all sorts of other crap :-) :-)
--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On 9/23/2021 6:38 AM, ChrisND @UKRM wrote:
>
> I spent most of my former career as an environmental scientist and there
> was phase of the government creating a mantra that burning waste (timber
> products specifically) was adding to the CO2 burden which was damaging
> the ozone layer (remember the ozone layer?). That was true, however,
> what they then did was encourage people to allow stuff to rot instead.
> This is BAD, very BAD because although the methane produced is not
> classed as a greenhouse gas it has what was/is known as an ozone
> depletion potential of around 20 times that of CO2!  Methane though was
> not amongst the targets for reduction - which made this policy ok in
> gubbmint eyes.
>
> So, the rule is, if you have a choice between burning some old
> fencing/bush clippings (!) and allowing them to rot away, choose burning
> every time*.
>
> HTH, Chris
> *But it needs to be a nice hot fire because low temperature bonfires
> release all sorts of other crap :-) :-)

Are you saying composting is bad?

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 9/22/2021 2:18 PM, Pipl wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 19:20:46 +0100, YTC#1
> <bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 22/09/2021 19:16, Turby wrote:
>>> they do a spastic dance.
>>
>> Thinks..... sounds just like a night on The Side in Newcastle.
>
> Not the Funky Chicken?
>

Oh, this is the Funky Funky Chicken.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 2:38:40 PM UTC+1, ChrisND @UKRM wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 19:41, Andy Burns wrote:
> > Bruce Horrocks wrote:
> >
> >> I notice that the recommendation to increase the amount of BioEthanol
> >> in petrol has been acted on - I wonder if that was just a coincidence
> >> given that it as happened so quickly?
> >
> > But does it give a lie to the claim that E10 fuel emits less CO2?
> >
> > I mean if we're adding twice as much bio-ethanol to petrol, there'll be
> > twice the CO2 by-product, presumably vented to atmosphere after it's
> > killed pigs or belched out after the cola/beer is drunk?
> Its not the first time a government has attempted to reach one
> environmental target whilst ignoring collateral damage in another.
>
> I spent most of my former career as an environmental scientist and there
> was phase of the government creating a mantra that burning waste (timber
> products specifically) was adding to the CO2 burden which was damaging
> the ozone layer (remember the ozone layer?). That was true, however,
> what they then did was encourage people to allow stuff to rot instead.
> This is BAD, very BAD because although the methane produced is not
> classed as a greenhouse gas it has what was/is known as an ozone
> depletion potential of around 20 times that of CO2! Methane though was
> not amongst the targets for reduction - which made this policy ok in
> gubbmint eyes.
>
> So, the rule is, if you have a choice between burning some old
> fencing/bush clippings (!) and allowing them to rot away, choose burning
> every time*.
>
> HTH, Chris
> *But it needs to be a nice hot fire because low temperature bonfires
> release all sorts of other crap :-) :-)

You can be dragged away to re-education camps nowadays if you have a bonfire.

https://www.gov.uk/garden-bonfires-rules

On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 4:48:17 PM UTC+1, browni...@googlemail.com wrote:

> You can be dragged away to re-education camps nowadays if you have a bonfire.
>
> https://www.gov.uk/garden-bonfires-rules

When you live near someone who averages two "bonfires" a week, and regularly
burns household waste (including plastic) with no regard for wind direction, or
the effect on neighbours, you suddenly find yourself strongly in favour of "firm
action" up to, and including, air strikes. DAMHIK, IJDOK?

--
WUN

In article <0c459e50-2c1e-444b-a456-
d365a271697en@googlegroups.com>, WUN says...
>
> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 4:48:17 PM UTC+1, browni...@googlemail.com wrote:
>
> > You can be dragged away to re-education camps nowadays if you have a bonfire.
> >
> > https://www.gov.uk/garden-bonfires-rules
>
> When you live near someone who averages two "bonfires" a week, and regularly
> burns household waste (including plastic) with no regard for wind direction, or
> the effect on neighbours, you suddenly find yourself strongly in favour of "firm
> action" up to, and including, air strikes. DAMHIK, IJDOK?

I had one of those. I took to watering the garden with a
pressure washer.

I still wave to him as I pass but he seems to ignore me.

On 23/09/2021 16:06, Turby wrote:
> On 9/23/2021 6:38 AM, ChrisND @UKRM wrote:
>>
>> I spent most of my former career as an environmental scientist and
>> there was phase of the government creating a mantra that burning waste
>> (timber products specifically) was adding to the CO2 burden which was
>> damaging the ozone layer (remember the ozone layer?). That was true,
>> however, what they then did was encourage people to allow stuff to rot
>> instead. This is BAD, very BAD because although the methane produced
>> is not classed as a greenhouse gas it has what was/is known as an
>> ozone depletion potential of around 20 times that of CO2!  Methane
>> though was not amongst the targets for reduction - which made this
>> policy ok in gubbmint eyes.
>>
>> So, the rule is, if you have a choice between burning some old
>> fencing/bush clippings (!) and allowing them to rot away, choose
>> burning every time*.
>>
>> HTH, Chris
>> *But it needs to be a nice hot fire because low temperature bonfires
>> release all sorts of other crap :-) :-)
>
> Are you saying composting is bad?

Its all about context and making the best of a bad job.
There are no good options or simple replies any more.
Neither CO2 or methane are good things to release into the atmosphere.
So, it depends what happens to the compost. If it just lies there
forever, then that is bad. If however it is treated decently and used
instead of other products which would have their own 'carbon footprint'
then it may be the best option.

The problem we have is that the world has filled up with so much crap
that we can't metaphorically or literally wash things away as we have
done for millenia.

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On 23/09/2021 16:48, Dave Brown wrote:
> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 2:38:40 PM UTC+1, ChrisND @UKRM wrote:
>> On 22/09/2021 19:41, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>>>
>>>> I notice that the recommendation to increase the amount of BioEthanol
>>>> in petrol has been acted on - I wonder if that was just a coincidence
>>>> given that it as happened so quickly?
>>>
>>> But does it give a lie to the claim that E10 fuel emits less CO2?
>>>
>>> I mean if we're adding twice as much bio-ethanol to petrol, there'll be
>>> twice the CO2 by-product, presumably vented to atmosphere after it's
>>> killed pigs or belched out after the cola/beer is drunk?
>> Its not the first time a government has attempted to reach one
>> environmental target whilst ignoring collateral damage in another.
>>
>> I spent most of my former career as an environmental scientist and there
>> was phase of the government creating a mantra that burning waste (timber
>> products specifically) was adding to the CO2 burden which was damaging
>> the ozone layer (remember the ozone layer?). That was true, however,
>> what they then did was encourage people to allow stuff to rot instead.
>> This is BAD, very BAD because although the methane produced is not
>> classed as a greenhouse gas it has what was/is known as an ozone
>> depletion potential of around 20 times that of CO2! Methane though was
>> not amongst the targets for reduction - which made this policy ok in
>> gubbmint eyes.
>>
>> So, the rule is, if you have a choice between burning some old
>> fencing/bush clippings (!) and allowing them to rot away, choose burning
>> every time*.
>>
>> HTH, Chris
>> *But it needs to be a nice hot fire because low temperature bonfires
>> release all sorts of other crap :-) :-)
>
> You can be dragged away to re-education camps nowadays if you have a bonfire.
>
> https://www.gov.uk/garden-bonfires-rules

Yes, hence my postscript above.

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk