On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 04:36:32 -0700 (PDT)
TonyGamble <tonygamble@compuserve.com> wrote:
>"Radio and TV presenters are pretty interchangable these days and have been
>for quite a while. "
>
>Interchangable maybe but not necessarily possessing the same skills.
>
>Likewise the engineers, as proven when they cut to one outside reporter this
>morning at about 6.10. Desparately over exposed video and ineffective sound -
>corrected with the second try.
>
>Followed with a recording of a sea front interview with Mrs Patel where the
>volume was far too low.
>
>There is an anecdote that ITN say their finest news bulleting ever was their
>very first - having had a year to practice it. This morning's was more akin to
>a bunch of students wheeled in to have a tinker with some kit they had hardly
>ever seen before.

Given how many TV channels there are these days with only a certain pool of
professionals to go around, you might not be far from the truth.

"JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:iioql1FndbhU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 13/06/2021 09:49 pm, NY wrote:
>> "Jeff Gaines" <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:xn0mz3ki22s67ed007@news.individual.net...
>>>
>>> Watching on Sky 515, it's the only channel I've seen for years with lip
>>> sync problems, anybody else seeing this?
>>
>> Yes, terrible sync problems. I'm glad it's not just me. I'm watching a
>> recording of the HD feed on satellite. I don't know what the effect is on
>> SD on terrestrial. It was bad with Andrew Neil's introduction and for the
>> time when the reporters (north east, Northern Ireland, south east)
>> introduced themselves - though the Birmingham reporter was bang in sync.
>> I presume those introductions were recorded rather than live.
>
> Although Andrew Neil was eventually shown (by a reflection in a glass
> panel) to be in the studio with several other presenters, at first, due to
> the fuzzy nature of his image on-screen, I thought he was at home, phoning
> it in on Facetime.

Looking again critically at the pictures of my HD satellite recordings of
Welcome to GB News and Tonight Live with Dan Wootton, I'm wondering whether
the studio cameras were either SD upscaled to HD or lower bitrate, or both.
There were a few reflections off chromium objects which looked to have
jagged edges that were too coarse to be HD. And the pictures of adverts,
graphics and some of the recorded or remote insert reports looked sharper
than the studio shots.

Look at https://i.postimg.cc/50SGbJpx/vlcsnap-2021-06-14-16h10m41s205.png.
Look in particular at the reflections from the curved stand that is holding
the globe in the top left of the screen - very coarse jagged edge. And is it
my imagination or is the background (eg the plant to the right of the woman)
a bit sharper than the woman herself (I chose a frame where she wasn't
moving) - did the camera focus somewhere in between the two instead of on
the woman?

"JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:iioql1FndbhU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 13/06/2021 09:49 pm, NY wrote:
>> "Jeff Gaines" <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:xn0mz3ki22s67ed007@news.individual.net...
>>>
>>> Watching on Sky 515, it's the only channel I've seen for years with lip
>>> sync problems, anybody else seeing this?
>>
>> Yes, terrible sync problems. I'm glad it's not just me. I'm watching a
>> recording of the HD feed on satellite. I don't know what the effect is on
>> SD on terrestrial. It was bad with Andrew Neil's introduction and for the
>> time when the reporters (north east, Northern Ireland, south east)
>> introduced themselves - though the Birmingham reporter was bang in sync.
>> I presume those introductions were recorded rather than live.
>
> Although Andrew Neil was eventually shown (by a reflection in a glass
> panel) to be in the studio with several other presenters, at first, due to
> the fuzzy nature of his image on-screen, I thought he was at home, phoning
> it in on Facetime.

https://i.postimg.cc/3x2zn2p4/vlcsnap-2021-06-14-16h17m36s334.png shows he
was in the same studio as Neil Oliver - unless it is a very clever composite
shot ;-)

Look at those *horrible* jagged edges on the chromium arms of Neil Oliver's
chair.

And look at this picture of Andrew Neil
https://i.postimg.cc/Dy9trxW3/vlcsnap-2021-06-14-16h18m13s855.png - no way
is that a high quality HD picture ;-) Pin-sharp graphics, web-cam quality
camera ;-)

NY wrote:

> JNugent wrote:
>
>> Although Andrew Neil was eventually shown (by a reflection in a glass
>> panel) to be in the studio with several other presenters, at first,
>> due to the fuzzy nature of his image on-screen, I thought he was at
>> home, phoning it in on Facetime.
>
> Looking again critically at the pictures of my HD satellite recordings
> of Welcome to GB News and Tonight Live with Dan Wootton, I'm wondering
> whether the studio cameras were either SD upscaled to HD or lower
> bitrate, or both. There were a few reflections off chromium objects
> which looked to have jagged edges

Are the reflections real, or could it be a virtual studio with
reflections added to virtual surfaces?

On 14/06/2021 08:51, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 13/06/2021 in message <iinfn3FfjrdU1@mid.individual.net> Brian
> Gregory wrote:
>
>>> Watching on Sky 515, it's the only channel I've seen for years with
>>> lip sync problems, anybody else seeing this?
>>>
>>
>> Forget that.
>>
>> Why was Andrew Neil in semi darkness, so much so that he looked really
>> grainy.
>
> Thank heavens for small mercies, he looks better in the dark :-)
>

I was watching in HD on satellite.
It was fascinating watching the snow dance on his face.
It didn't quite look like normal low light graininess though, it kind of
formed a few weird swirly patterns that persisted for a moment, like
maybe there was heavy digital processing of some kind going on.

At about 20:09 when AN started his first attempt to interview Neil
Oliver there was a good bit, they had the wrong microphone faded up and
while you couldn't hear NO being interviewed you could clearly hear a
woman whisper something like "yes, well I don't know, no".

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 14/06/2021 17:28, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 14/06/2021 08:51, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>> On 13/06/2021 in message <iinfn3FfjrdU1@mid.individual.net> Brian
>> Gregory wrote:
>>
>>>> Watching on Sky 515, it's the only channel I've seen for years with
>>>> lip sync problems, anybody else seeing this?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Forget that.
>>>
>>> Why was Andrew Neil in semi darkness, so much so that he looked
>>> really grainy.
>>
>> Thank heavens for small mercies, he looks better in the dark :-)
>>
>
> I was watching in HD on satellite.
> It was fascinating watching the snow dance on his face.
> It didn't quite look like normal low light graininess though, it kind of
> formed a few weird swirly patterns that persisted for a moment, like
> maybe there was heavy digital processing of some kind going on.

I think Andrew Neil's camera was an even cheaper brand of webcam than
the rest of the studio cameras ;-)

Someone on the Digital Spy forum said his camera made it look as if he'd
had his face sandpapered ;-)

> At about 20:09 when AN started his first attempt to interview Neil
> Oliver there was a good bit, they had the wrong microphone faded up and
> while you couldn't hear NO being interviewed you could clearly hear a
> woman whisper something like "yes, well I don't know, no".

Yes I heard that cock-up. I couldn't decide whether they'd faded up the
wrong mike or whether it was something else, though whatever mike was
live caught the woman's whisper. But a few minutes later Neil Oliver
discovered that his personal mike had fallen off and was buried in his
shirt. As soon as he put it back, the sound returned to normal quality -
but still out of sync with the pictures.

I've seen worse, more car-crashy TV, but only from a local TV station
"SixTV" based in Oxford and broadcast from Oxford transmitter around
2002. That had everything: newsreaders who looked like rabbits caught in
the headlights, cameras that clipped highlights giving people glaring
orange patches on their faces, people's voices going off-mike (like Neil
Oliver's did). But it also had the delectable Sasha Norris presenting a
very interesting wildlife programme called "Wild" so it wasn't all bad.

On 14/06/2021 16:42, Andy Burns wrote:
> NY wrote:
>
>> JNugent wrote:
>>> Although Andrew Neil was eventually shown (by a reflection in a glass
>>> panel) to be in the studio with several other presenters, at first,
>>> due to the fuzzy nature of his image on-screen, I thought he was at
>>> home, phoning it in on Facetime.
>>
>> Looking again critically at the pictures of my HD satellite recordings
>> of Welcome to GB News and Tonight Live with Dan Wootton, I'm wondering
>> whether the studio cameras were either SD upscaled to HD or lower
>> bitrate, or both. There were a few reflections off chromium objects
>> which looked to have jagged edges
>
> Are the reflections real, or could it be a virtual studio with
> reflections added to virtual surfaces?

On HD it did look as if there was a fuzzy 1980s Chromakey halo around
people in some shots, so I wonder if the bookcase and the dining table
and the newsroom in the background are virtual backgrounds, and only the
chairs that the presenters are sitting on are real. But there was so
much noise and bit-starved compression artefacts (and this is on HD via
satellite) that it's difficult to tell whether it really was Chromakey
halo or just crappy over-compression of contrasty edges.

Something in the cameras or compression chain really does *not* like
bright reflections from the arms of the chrome seats: there are horrible
jagged edges like upscaled 640x480 video.

Brian Gregory wrote:

> they had the wrong microphone faded up and while you couldn't hear NO
> being interviewed you could clearly hear a woman whisper something like
> "yes, well I don't know, no"

I've heard faint talkback speech in the background several times. They
seem to know there's horrid echo on the outside contributions, because
when the interviewee is speaking they fade over to a different audi
which sounds clean, then they switch back to the echoey version when the
interviewer/interviewee are speaking to each other.

On Freesat I watched Boris on the BBC and then the feed taken by GB and (a) the video deteriorated and (b) the sound was out of sync.

Surely someone can get the sat feed into sync?

I stayed with them to watch the studio chat and the poor chap in the middle might not have bothered to clip his mike to his jacket the number of times it was not turned up.

We folk here on this forum are picky - but why isn't Mr Neil or someone at the station picky as well? It does matter. It'll matter a lot more when they run out of money and potential investors realise they simply don't care.

That OB from St Albans. How can you get echo from a lapel mike used out of doors? And then they lost her pre-taped clip. Poor girl. I bet she wonders why she gave up the day job.

TonyGamble wrote:

> but why isn't Mr Neil or someone at the station picky as well? It does matter.

The presenters seem to be taking the piss out of the technical quality.

On Monday, 14 June 2021 at 19:21:44 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
> TonyGamble wrote:
>
> > but why isn't Mr Neil or someone at the station picky as well? It does matter.
> The presenters seem to be taking the piss out of the technical quality.

Once the presenters adopt that attitude the channel is doomed.

The number of times that Dubery woman looked at the wrong camera between 6.30 and 7.00 is pathetic. Is there no floor manager?. Are they saving red bulbs on the top of the cameras?

How many times do you hear a BBC Today presenter apologising for an incorrect time check? The rule is that you crack on with what you are needed to do next. The world does not stop if you have been told the wrong time.

"TonyGamble" <tonygamble@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:c7807054-a21e-472a-ab61-0470973951ben@googlegroups.com...
> The number of times that Dubery woman looked at the wrong camera between
> 6.30 and 7.00 is pathetic. Is there no floor manager?. Are they saving red
> bulbs on the top of the cameras?

Does a floor manager usually indicate to the presenter which is *going to
be* the next camera (ie a few seconds in advance), so the presenter can be
prepared for the change, rather than the helpless looking around "the red
light on the camera I was using has gone out - which camera has a light
now?".

If so, how does a floor manager indicate this? Do they walk from one camera
to the next and give a hand signal to say "this will be the next one - but
wait for the light".

"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
news:iipl1mFsb74U1@mid.individual.net...
> TonyGamble wrote:
>
>> but why isn't Mr Neil or someone at the station picky as well? It does
>> matter.
>
> The presenters seem to be taking the piss out of the technical quality.

I predict one of two things will happen.

Either GB News will take off and become a respected and lasting news
broadcaster - and they'll have a retrospective in 20 years' time looking
back on all the technical cock-ups of the first few days before it had found
its feet.

Or GB News will vanish without trace within a month or so.

On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 19:58:55 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>"TonyGamble" <tonygamble@compuserve.com> wrote in message
>news:c7807054-a21e-472a-ab61-0470973951ben@googlegroups.com...
>> The number of times that Dubery woman looked at the wrong camera between
>> 6.30 and 7.00 is pathetic. Is there no floor manager?. Are they saving red
>> bulbs on the top of the cameras?
>
>Does a floor manager usually indicate to the presenter which is *going to
>be* the next camera (ie a few seconds in advance), so the presenter can be
>prepared for the change, rather than the helpless looking around "the red
>light on the camera I was using has gone out - which camera has a light
>now?".
>
>If so, how does a floor manager indicate this? Do they walk from one camera
>to the next and give a hand signal to say "this will be the next one - but
>wait for the light".

Unless they've changed it since I used to work in studios (admittedly
not recently) it's the Production Assistant who calls the shots from
the gallery, so anyone with talkback will hear it.

Rod.

"Jeff Gaines" <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xn0mz3ki22s67ed007@news.individual.net...
>
> Watching on Sky 515, it's the only channel I've seen for years with lip
> sync problems, anybody else seeing this?

It's still going on. The symptom is very weird. I wonder what could cause
sound to lead video at the start of any new segment on the channel, but to
gradually right itself over the course of a few minutes - until the next
interview or other live presentation after a video insert.

Are microphones in a modern studio analogue back to the mixing desk, and
then digital from the mixed output onwards? Or does each mike have an A/D
converter so the sound arrives at the mixing desk as a bitstream? I wonder
if they need to resync the sound (using a clapperboard and a digital delay)
just before each segment goes live, until they find and kill the gremlin.

"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
news:sa8b7l$pdk$1@dont-email.me...
> "Jeff Gaines" <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:xn0mz3ki22s67ed007@news.individual.net...
>>
>> Watching on Sky 515, it's the only channel I've seen for years with lip
>> sync problems, anybody else seeing this?
>
>
> It's still going on. The symptom is very weird. I wonder what could cause
> sound to lead video at the start of any new segment on the channel, but to
> gradually right itself over the course of a few minutes - until the next
> interview or other live presentation after a video insert.
>
> Are microphones in a modern studio analogue back to the mixing desk, and
> then digital from the mixed output onwards? Or does each mike have an A/D
> converter so the sound arrives at the mixing desk as a bitstream? I wonder
> if they need to resync the sound (using a clapperboard and a digital
> delay) just before each segment goes live, until they find and kill the
> gremlin.

Watching the current item (Andrew Neil talking to an anti-lockdown
campaigner) it looks as if they have only got the sound and pictures in sync
for the interviewee's camera. On the wide two-shot camera it *looks* as if
there's a delay, and there certainly is for the camera used for the close-up
of Neil. So the cameras are not even in sync with each other: it's as if
it's between camera and vision mixing desk.

I'd love to hear the talkback from the gallery. I bet they are tearing their
hair out trying to get it right.

"Roderick Stewart" <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0ebfcgl61uu2gd3g9pcm3el7afnj4sbvst@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 19:58:55 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>>"TonyGamble" <tonygamble@compuserve.com> wrote in message
>>news:c7807054-a21e-472a-ab61-0470973951ben@googlegroups.com...
>>> The number of times that Dubery woman looked at the wrong camera between
>>> 6.30 and 7.00 is pathetic. Is there no floor manager?. Are they saving
>>> red
>>> bulbs on the top of the cameras?
>>
>>Does a floor manager usually indicate to the presenter which is *going to
>>be* the next camera (ie a few seconds in advance), so the presenter can be
>>prepared for the change, rather than the helpless looking around "the red
>>light on the camera I was using has gone out - which camera has a light
>>now?".
>>
>>If so, how does a floor manager indicate this? Do they walk from one
>>camera
>>to the next and give a hand signal to say "this will be the next one - but
>>wait for the light".
>
> Unless they've changed it since I used to work in studios (admittedly
> not recently) it's the Production Assistant who calls the shots from
> the gallery, so anyone with talkback will hear it.

Yes but does the presenter hear that, or is it filtered out so as to present
them with only the most crucial comments from the director?

On Mon 14/06/2021 20:43, NY wrote:
> "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
> news:sa8b7l$pdk$1@dont-email.me...
>> "Jeff Gaines" <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:xn0mz3ki22s67ed007@news.individual.net...
>>>
>>> Watching on Sky 515, it's the only channel I've seen for years with
>>> lip sync problems, anybody else seeing this?
>>
>>
>> It's still going on. The symptom is very weird. I wonder what could
>> cause sound to lead video at the start of any new segment on the
>> channel, but to gradually right itself over the course of a few
>> minutes - until the next interview or other live presentation after a
>> video insert.
>>
>> Are microphones in a modern studio analogue back to the mixing desk,
>> and then digital from the mixed output onwards? Or does each mike have
>> an A/D converter so the sound arrives at the mixing desk as a
>> bitstream? I wonder if they need to resync the sound (using a
>> clapperboard and a digital delay) just before each segment goes live,
>> until they find and kill the gremlin.
>
>
>
> Watching the current item (Andrew Neil talking to an anti-lockdown
> campaigner) it looks as if they have only got the sound and pictures in
> sync for the interviewee's camera. On the wide two-shot camera it
> *looks* as if there's a delay, and there certainly is for the camera
> used for the close-up of Neil. So the cameras are not even in sync with
> each other: it's as if it's between camera and vision mixing desk.
>
> I'd love to hear the talkback from the gallery. I bet they are tearing
> their hair out trying to get it right.

Could it be that OBs are being done on 4G or 5G by mobile phone of which
they are using more than one and not of the same make/model/firmware/OS?

The bit that is getting me is not the poor {enter your own choice here}
but more the abysmally low sound. We normally have our TV sound at about
35 on BBC News Channel or Sky but we need to go to 50 or more (out of
60!!) to even hear GBN!

On 14/06/2021 22:21, Woody wrote:
> The bit that is getting me is not the poor {enter your own choice here}
> but more the abysmally low sound. We normally have our TV sound at about
> 35 on BBC News Channel or Sky but we need to go to 50 or more (out of
> 60!!) to even hear GBN!

I've just compared GBN against Sky News, BBC News Channel and BBC One,
all in SD on satellite. And the sound levels seem pretty similar to me.

I also compared the HD versions of GBN and BBC News, and they are also
fairly similar.

The problem isn't the sound level but the poor sound-vision sync and the
occasions of off-mike voices (as if they've faded up a mike on the other
side of the studio and are picking up room acoustics).

On 14/06/2021 22:21, Woody wrote:
> The bit that is getting me is not the poor {enter your own choice here}
> but more the abysmally low sound. We normally have our TV sound at about
> 35 on BBC News Channel or Sky but we need to go to 50 or more (out of
> 60!!) to even hear GBN!

I had it on in the workshop and on the ordinary telly I couldn't get it
loud enough to hear properly. In the end I tuned it in on a Freeview box
that is connected to an audio amp and listen to it that way.

On satellite, a couple of hours ago the sound was still low, but it's OK
now, level-wise at least. But at 0042 everything except the ticker
thingy went dead for a minute or so.

Bill

On 15/06/2021 00:34, NY wrote:
> On 14/06/2021 22:21, Woody wrote:
>> The bit that is getting me is not the poor {enter your own choice
>> here} but more the abysmally low sound. We normally have our TV sound
>> at about 35 on BBC News Channel or Sky but we need to go to 50 or more
>> (out of 60!!) to even hear GBN!
>
> I've just compared GBN against Sky News, BBC News Channel and BBC One,
> all in SD on satellite. And the sound levels seem pretty similar to me.

Yes, they brought the level up at midnight approx. Until then sat and
DTT were both very low.

Bill

On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 20:56:32 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>"Roderick Stewart" <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:0ebfcgl61uu2gd3g9pcm3el7afnj4sbvst@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 19:58:55 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>"TonyGamble" <tonygamble@compuserve.com> wrote in message
>>>news:c7807054-a21e-472a-ab61-0470973951ben@googlegroups.com...
>>>> The number of times that Dubery woman looked at the wrong camera between
>>>> 6.30 and 7.00 is pathetic. Is there no floor manager?. Are they saving
>>>> red
>>>> bulbs on the top of the cameras?
>>>
>>>Does a floor manager usually indicate to the presenter which is *going to
>>>be* the next camera (ie a few seconds in advance), so the presenter can be
>>>prepared for the change, rather than the helpless looking around "the red
>>>light on the camera I was using has gone out - which camera has a light
>>>now?".
>>>
>>>If so, how does a floor manager indicate this? Do they walk from one
>>>camera
>>>to the next and give a hand signal to say "this will be the next one - but
>>>wait for the light".
>>
>> Unless they've changed it since I used to work in studios (admittedly
>> not recently) it's the Production Assistant who calls the shots from
>> the gallery, so anyone with talkback will hear it.
>
>Yes but does the presenter hear that, or is it filtered out so as to present
>them with only the most crucial comments from the director?

Presenters of live shows usually have discreet earphones fed with
gallery talkback, which will be a cacophony of everything that is
going on in the gallery, typically dominated by the director screaming
and swearing at everyone and the PA calmly calling out shot numbers
and camera numbers, while the Technical Manager may also be on the
phone to somebody in the background. To present a live show properly
in these circumstances it's necessary to be a professional who can
cope with all this audible panic while appearing outwardly calm,
confident, knowledgeable and in charge, and to be able to ad-lib and
improvise with a smile at a moment's notice if there is a sudden
change of plan or something fails to work. This requires a special set
of qualities and skills possessed by very few. It looks like magic
when it works, and can quickly descend into chaos when it doesn't.

Rod.

On 14/06/2021 20:04, NY wrote:
> "Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
> news:iipl1mFsb74U1@mid.individual.net...
>> TonyGamble wrote:
>>
>>> but why isn't Mr Neil or someone at the station picky as well? It
>>> does matter.
>>
>> The presenters seem to be taking the piss out of the technical quality.
>
> I predict one of two things will happen.
>
> Either GB News will take off and become a respected and lasting news
> broadcaster - and they'll have a retrospective in 20 years' time
> looking back on all the technical cock-ups of the first few days
> before it had found its feet.
>
> Or GB News will vanish without trace within a month or so.

From what I can gather from various sources, the technical set up is
woefully inadequate for what they are trying to do. In fact it would be
inadequate for a simple shopping channel.
For instance it seems they may only be using an 8 input audio mixer !

It's just been thrown together by a bunch of well meaning I'm genuinely
sure, but inexperienced technical staff. I don't think the channel has
an Engineering Director ?

They need a properly engineered, designed, and debugged broadcast studio
system. That doesn't come cheap, or quickly

On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 16:15:06 +0100
"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>Looking again critically at the pictures of my HD satellite recordings of
>Welcome to GB News and Tonight Live with Dan Wootton, I'm wondering whether

I do wonder how the target audience of GBNews will take to a slightly camp
kiwi.

On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 00:34:20 +0100
NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>On 14/06/2021 22:21, Woody wrote:
>> The bit that is getting me is not the poor {enter your own choice here}
>> but more the abysmally low sound. We normally have our TV sound at about
>> 35 on BBC News Channel or Sky but we need to go to 50 or more (out of
>> 60!!) to even hear GBN!
>
>I've just compared GBN against Sky News, BBC News Channel and BBC One,
>all in SD on satellite. And the sound levels seem pretty similar to me.

Is there some kind of one upmanship going on here with sources? Why TF would
anyone watch it on satellite when its available on Freeview?