On Monday, 11 October 2021 at 11:57:28 UTC+1, MB wrote:
> On 11/10/2021 09:16, Norman Wells wrote:
> > Oh, Lordy, I'm not that technical! I just want a phone and an extension
> > both to work after I've been ported. But the BT HUb2 has only one
> > (bright green) telephone socket which seems to be a potential problem.
> My HUB6 has not telephone socket so they will presumably to replace it?

Yes.

>
> I think there is going a massive reaction against this change because
> most people have a phone that was installed many years ago, they do not
> want to have start messing around with it. If BT want to transfer them
> to digital then it is up to BT to do any work necessary though I would
> prefer to stay on a land line connection because I don't want to start
> running mains extension leads around the house or having to an extra
> mains socket fitted.

Well you already have one for the router and your phones will work from its BS 6312 431A socket - so why do you think you need more mains leads?

>
> It's even worse than the letters I keep getting telling me that I can
> have a "smart" electricity meter as if it would be of some benefit to me.

On 11/10/2021 18:09, Tim+ wrote:
> Tony Gamble <tonygamble@compuserve.com> wrote:
>> On 11/10/2021 12:53, Tim+ wrote:
>>
>>> Or just ditch the wire/cable/fibre connection and use mobile 4/5G.
>>
>> How does that suit people who have a phone in their bedroom, one in the
>> kitchen, one in the living room and a couple on our desks?
>
> The amazing thing thing about mobile phones is that they’re mobile. It’s
> entirely possible to carry them on your person.
>
>>
>> Seems a lot of sim cards.
>>
>> Or was your suggestion really a joke?
>
> Many households have already given up their landlines for mobiles. It won’t
> suit everyone for a variety of reasons but it’s an option.
>
> Tim
>

I live with a hearing loss.

Thus, when I am asleep, I cannot hear telephones ring.

I have a special alarm clock that has a vibrator atteched to it which I
keep under my pillow.

The same alarm clock can be connected to a landline so that people can
pre-send a text message to my mobile phone and then ring my landline
number which then via my alarm clock wakes me up via the vibrator in my
pillow.

I then get up and check my mobile for messages.

I have not seen a alarm clock that I can connect to a mobile phone in
the same way as mien does to a landline.

On 12/10/2021 09:52, Tony Gamble wrote:
> How many people have their Hub near their phone?
>
> Not me and not many in the homes I go to.

No, but quite a lot have the Hub plugged into the master socket. In the
brave new world there will be a cable from the Hub's phone port back to
the master socket, which will feed the already installed extension
network. There are links posted in this thread, that detail how that is
done, (and one chap in here has already done it)

On Monday, 11 October 2021 at 17:32:25 UTC+1, Pamela wrote:
> On 10:00 11 Oct 2021, Andy Burns said:
> >
> > Andy Burns wrote:
> >
> >> With luck BT will supply you with a voice re-injection frontplate,
> >> so you plug the green phone socket of the router to the green
> >> extensions socket of the faceplate, and your extensions will work,
> >> if you want a phone near the router then you'd need one of the old
> >> socket-doublers.
> >
> > <https://draytek.co.uk/information/blog/the-end-of-analogue-phone-lin
> > es-pt2>
>
> He writes:
>
> "People who have analogue phone service need reliable service and
> won't tolerate the type of quality which we put up with on a
> contended service."
>
> It will be interesting to see how well the workrounds (such as
> priority flags on packets) overcome the inherently asynchronous nature
> of TCP.

It's the asynchronous nature of ADSL - it's in the name see!

Nevertheless with a typical 50Mbps downlink and a 10Mbps uplink, there is usually plenty of spare capacity on a domestic installation to carry a couple of 64kbps voice channels.

>
> I get unwelcome audio effects using Android to Android voice apps, so
> this needs to be markedly better than that if it's to replace POTS.

That is your computer.

On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 08:08:25 UTC+1, MB wrote:
> On 12/10/2021 07:53, Indy Jess John wrote:
> > I have a low spec wired phone in the master socket so that in the event
> > of a power cut there is a phone that can ring out and report it.
> I keep a wall mounted phone near the master socket so it can be quickly
> plugged in if needed.
>
> I don't think I have ever received any junk calls at night? Junk calls
> seem to have quietened down at the moment but sure they will start again
> one day!

Never had them at night, but sometimes they come in before 09:00 or occasionally 08:00 and /or at weekends - probably because the far east is several hours ahead. I just tell them that we only take junk / Spam / scam calls 9-5 on weekdays.

On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 08:28:59 UTC+1, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 12/10/2021 07:53, Indy Jess John wrote:
> > I have a low spec wired phone in the master socket so that in the
> > event of a power cut there is a phone that can ring out and report it.
> I don't think I've ever needed to report a power cut this century. The
> DNO's telemetry is so good these days, that the power cut appears on
> their service status page in under a minute.
> (Here's looking at you BBC/Arqiva etc)
>
> Of course if your individual connection fails, that's a different matter
> (and good luck !)

We had no power cut here from when I moved to the area (1975) to last November, when a large are was knocked off for a few minutes - probably an error in the control room. It went back on quick because there are two hospitals on the same 'circuit'.

On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 09:02:17 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
> "Tweed" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:sk3eb9$k46$1...@dont-email.me...
SNIP

> >
> > The thing is, the copper network is approaching end of life, both the
> > actual multi core cables and the equipment in the exchanges.

The copper is generally OK, the aluminium, used in the 70's, is corroding.

> Oh come on
>
> the equipment at the exchange gets updated at regular intervals

Indeed, I remember my parents getting STD in rural Scotland in the mid 60's - I got to keep the large battery that was part of the original installation.

>
> I spent half a lifetime working for companies who made a business selling
> such equipment

Large part of mine too.

>
> Even the copper cables get renewed with fibre as far as the street cabinet,
> the trunk network having been fibre-only for a couple of decades

And we had ISDN at home and office from mid 90's until [force] migrated to ADSL over ten years ago. Nowhere to plug my ISDN phone in now :-(, although we ran it out of a Panasonic PABX for quite a long time.

R. Mark Clayton <notyalckram@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 11 October 2021 at 17:32:25 UTC+1, Pamela wrote:
>> On 10:00 11 Oct 2021, Andy Burns said:
>>>
>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> With luck BT will supply you with a voice re-injection frontplate,
>>>> so you plug the green phone socket of the router to the green
>>>> extensions socket of the faceplate, and your extensions will work,
>>>> if you want a phone near the router then you'd need one of the old
>>>> socket-doublers.
>>>
>>> <https://draytek.co.uk/information/blog/the-end-of-analogue-phone-lin
>>> es-pt2>
>>
>> He writes:
>>
>> "People who have analogue phone service need reliable service and
>> won't tolerate the type of quality which we put up with on a
>> contended service."
>>
>> It will be interesting to see how well the workrounds (such as
>> priority flags on packets) overcome the inherently asynchronous nature
>> of TCP.
>
> It's the asynchronous nature of ADSL - it's in the name see!
>
> Nevertheless with a typical 50Mbps downlink and a 10Mbps uplink, there is
> usually plenty of spare capacity on a domestic installation to carry a
> couple of 64kbps voice channels.
>
>>
>> I get unwelcome audio effects using Android to Android voice apps, so
>> this needs to be markedly better than that if it's to replace POTS.
>
> That is your computer.
>

Asymmetric digital subscriber line, not asynchronous. Asymmetric as in the
upload speed being much lower than the download.

On 12/10/2021 08:58, tim... wrote:
>
>
> "Mark Carver"<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:iskrppF7l4qU1@mid.individual.net...
>> On 12/10/2021 07:53, Indy Jess John wrote:
>>> I have a low spec wired phone in the master socket so that in the event
>>> of a power cut there is a phone that can ring out and report it.
>>
>> I don't think I've ever needed to report a power cut this century.
>
> I think you've been lucky
>
> I have suffered 4 or 5
>
> usually relatively short outages, but one was multiple hours
>
>
>
The last one I had was earlier this year. It started at around 11pm and
it was just my street that went out (houses and street lights). I phoned
in the fault and appeared to be the first caller. They phoned me back
half an hour later to tell me it was a cable fault and it would be a few
hours before the power came back on.

I went to bed. They left a message on my answerphone at around 3:30am to
tell me the power was back on. I had to reset some time switches in the
morning.

Jim

On 12/10/2021 09:14, Norman Wells wrote:
> This isn't a fibre connection to the premises, and BT aren't coming
> round at all. All that's happening is that they say they're switching
> me over to Digital Voice and what I have to do is unplug my landline
> phone from the wall socket and plug it into a socket on the BT Hub instead.

Even though the BT Home Hub does not have a socket for a telephone?

On 12/10/2021 11:39, MB wrote:
> On 12/10/2021 09:14, Norman Wells wrote:
>> This isn't a fibre connection to the premises, and BT aren't coming
>> round at all.  All that's happening is that they say they're switching
>> me over to Digital Voice and what I have to do is unplug my landline
>> phone from the wall socket and plug it into a socket on the BT Hub
>> instead.
>
> Even though the BT Home Hub does not have a socket for a telephone?

Oh, for goodness sake, no, YOUR one doesn't, but the newers one do, and
BT will give you a new one when the time comes

On 12/10/2021 09:52, Tony Gamble wrote:
> BT chose to put ours as near as possible to where the phone signal comes
> into our flat. On the floor in a corridor - hardly a smart place to have
> a phone.

Mine is a mess, the master socket is in the hall and I orginally
connected to it by plugging in and running wires around the house to
extensions including one in the sitting room.

When the BT subcontractor came to upgrade me to "fibre" (i.e. VDSL) he
used my wiring to a socket in the sitting room and connected there so I
think I have two sockets in parallel and rely on a plug connection to
the original master socket. I have no spare power sockets in the hall
for a router.

On 12/10/2021 11:40, Mark Carver wrote:
> Oh, for goodness sake, no, YOUR one doesn't, but the newers one do, and
> BT will give you a new one when the time comes

It is a Home Hub 6 which is not exactly ancient.

But I was pointing out that is one of the problems they are going to
have if they just send out an instruction to plug the telephone into the
router.

On 12/10/2021 09:17, tim... wrote:
>> and have to keep the router always powered.
> you need to do this anyway.
>
> Turing your router on and off as you (don't) use it destabilises the data
> connection.
>
>

You do not HAVE to keep it powered now, some might recommend it but it
is not essential and I tend to turn things off if going away overnight.

Tony Gamble <tonygamble@compuserve.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 12/10/2021 08:56, tim... wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Tony Gamble" <tonygamble@compuserve.com> wrote in message
>> news:isis9hFqjv9U1@mid.individual.net...
>>> On 11/10/2021 12:53, Tim+ wrote:
>>>
>>>> Or just ditch the wire/cable/fibre connection and use mobile 4/5G.
>>>
>>> How does that suit people who have a phone in their bedroom, one in
>>> the kitchen, one in the living room and a couple on our desks?
>>
>> buy cordeless phones
>>

> Don't like people who put their reply underneath the question.

Too posting should only be used in private emails or when responding to
people who have to rely on screen readers (partially sighted users).

Otherwise, the sense of the thread quickly gets lost and quotes get
mis-attributed. You might not like it but it’s a convention as old as
USENET. Ignore it and you *will* get flak.

>
> But.
>
> Several of my phones are cordless and why use cordless when you buy a
> home with phone sockets?
>
> Main reason for posting is because I have just looked at my BTHub6 and
> it has no phone socket at the back. If BT are going to change my
> landline to Voice they will need to change my hub to something that
> deals with the phone wiring they installed.

They will.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 12/10/2021 09:54, charles wrote:
> I can recall a situation when BBC Radio 3 was lost in Aberdeen and further
> north. It took a would-be listener in Kyle of Lochalsh to phone in to
> complain. All the transmitters were working perfectly which is all the
> monitoring saw.

BT had a card that had two halves with automatic changeover but the bit
that detected a fault, didn't so it remained on the faulty half and no
faults were indicated.

The people in the control centres and many engineers have absolute faith
in what their computer screen indicates. I had someone (not BT) come
out for a link failure after lightning, he came through later to say all
fixed. He took some convincing that there was nothing coming out of
link. I had no digital test gear of any sort so poked an oscilloscope
probe into one of the U-Links to prove it was dead!

After the Inverness fault, a senior BT manager took part in online
discussion. I asked why they cannot detect a drop in activity which
might indicate a fault or an increase in people doing Speed Checks.

On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:20:40 +0100, "tim..." <timsnews99@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
>"Roderick Stewart" <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:dim8mgdrvqmdj5a22cro48p0nisgjq40cr@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 12:35:03 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>BT have said they are not keeping their POTS (copper wire) service beyond
>>>2025. They won't make exceptions for 'luddites'.
>>
>> That might seem like a long time, but I reckon most people will know
>> nothing about this until the day it happens.
>>
>> Which means that as well as millions of people with computers that are
>> insecure because Windows 10 is no longer supported and they can't be
>> upgraded to Windows 11 (more than 50% of them can't apparently),
>
>how many domestic customers don't just chuck their computer away and upgrade
>within the MS upgrade period

I don't know, but it certainly isn't all of them. Many people see it
as wasteful to throw away things that are in working order and have
many years of life left in them.

>and how many people actually need their computer to be "secure"

Everybody who uses one that's connected to the internet.

Even if individuals don't want to think about this, some online
businesses (mostly banks probably) may refuse to connect or allow
logins from insecure or out of date systems.

Rod.

On 12/10/2021 11:58, Tim+ wrote:
> Otherwise, the sense of the thread quickly gets lost and quotes get
> mis-attributed. You might not like it but it’s a convention as old as
> USENET. Ignore it and you*will* get flak.

USENET used to be full of long arguments about that!

On 12/10/2021 09:08, tim... wrote:
> "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote in message
> news:isiva8Fr4rpU1@mid.individual.net...
>> On 11/10/2021 12:53, Tim+ wrote:

>>>
>>> Or just ditch the wire/cable/fibre connection and use mobile 4/5G.
>>
>> Then I'd have to tell everyone not to use my landline number, which is
>> what most of them do currently.
>
> you have a very non-standard community there
>
> even amongst my group of retired neighbours, the majority have moved to
> using a mobile as their main form of telecoms.
>
> Only a few hold-outs still rely upon their LL as the preferred means of
> communication

When I make calls, it's cheaper anyway on my mobile, so I use that.
When I'm at home, though, I don't want to carry a phone around with me
just in case anyone calls. It's actually more convenient to walk to the
landline phone when anyone does. Being tied to the wall, it's usually
where I left it last and can find it again.

Anyway, I'd have to give my mobile number instead to all the nuisance
callers I currently get on the landline!

> Amongst younger groups the majority don't even make many voice calls
> anymore.  Relying upon other forms of digital communications to keep in
> touch

In that way, I'm totally with them.

SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:
> On 11/10/2021 18:09, Tim+ wrote:
>> Tony Gamble <tonygamble@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/10/2021 12:53, Tim+ wrote:
>>>
>>>> Or just ditch the wire/cable/fibre connection and use mobile 4/5G.
>>>
>>> How does that suit people who have a phone in their bedroom, one in the
>>> kitchen, one in the living room and a couple on our desks?
>>
>> The amazing thing thing about mobile phones is that they’re mobile. It’s
>> entirely possible to carry them on your person.
>>
>>>
>>> Seems a lot of sim cards.
>>>
>>> Or was your suggestion really a joke?
>>
>> Many households have already given up their landlines for mobiles. It won’t
>> suit everyone for a variety of reasons but it’s an option.
>>

>> Tim
>>
>
>
> I live with a hearing loss.
>
> Thus, when I am asleep, I cannot hear telephones ring.
>
> I have a special alarm clock that has a vibrator atteched to it which I
> keep under my pillow.
>
> The same alarm clock can be connected to a landline so that people can
> pre-send a text message to my mobile phone and then ring my landline
> number which then via my alarm clock wakes me up via the vibrator in my
> pillow.
>
> I then get up and check my mobile for messages.
>
> I have not seen a alarm clock that I can connect to a mobile phone in
> the same way as mien does to a landline.
>

Did you miss this?

>> It won’t
>> suit everyone for a variety of reasons but it’s an option.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 11/10/2021 17:32, Pamela wrote:
> On 10:00 11 Oct 2021, Andy Burns said:
>>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> With luck BT will supply you with a voice re-injection frontplate,
>>> so you plug the green phone socket of the router to the green
>>> extensions socket of the faceplate, and your extensions will work,
>>> if you want a phone near the router then you'd need one of the old
>>> socket-doublers.
>>
>> <https://draytek.co.uk/information/blog/the-end-of-analogue-phone-lin
>> es-pt2>
>
> He writes:
>
> "People who have analogue phone service need reliable service and
> won't tolerate the type of quality which we put up with on a
> contended service."
>
> It will be interesting to see how well the workrounds (such as
> priority flags on packets) overcome the inherently asynchronous nature
> of TCP.
>
> I get unwelcome audio effects using Android to Android voice apps, so
> this needs to be markedly better than that if it's to replace POTS.
>

VoIP telephony is normally all UDP (not TCP).

The main problem is that you really need to downgrade your connection
and run it a bit below it's maximum speed (in both directions) for VoIP
to work well. Maybe when everything is all in one box like with the BT
Hub it will only do this while you are actually using VoIP.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 11/10/2021 23:40, alan_m wrote:
> On 11/10/2021 15:17, Tweed wrote:
>
>> Likewise and like every other young person I know, and quite a lot of the
>> not so young. Now where’s my new gramophone needle gone…….
>>
>
> Whilst in the house my mobile is usually on charge in one room.
> Landline phone is DECT with one base station with three handsets in
> different rooms.
>

Charge your mobile while you sleep.

You could use a time switch if you want to avoid stressing the battery
by keeping it fully charged for most of the night.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 12/10/2021 12:33, Tim+ wrote:
> SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:
>> On 11/10/2021 18:09, Tim+ wrote:
>>> Tony Gamble <tonygamble@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>> On 11/10/2021 12:53, Tim+ wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Or just ditch the wire/cable/fibre connection and use mobile 4/5G.
>>>>
>>>> How does that suit people who have a phone in their bedroom, one in the
>>>> kitchen, one in the living room and a couple on our desks?
>>>
>>> The amazing thing thing about mobile phones is that they’re mobile. It’s
>>> entirely possible to carry them on your person.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Seems a lot of sim cards.
>>>>
>>>> Or was your suggestion really a joke?
>>>
>>> Many households have already given up their landlines for mobiles. It won’t
>>> suit everyone for a variety of reasons but it’s an option.
>>>
>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>
>>
>> I live with a hearing loss.
>>
>> Thus, when I am asleep, I cannot hear telephones ring.
>>
>> I have a special alarm clock that has a vibrator atteched to it which I
>> keep under my pillow.
>>
>> The same alarm clock can be connected to a landline so that people can
>> pre-send a text message to my mobile phone and then ring my landline
>> number which then via my alarm clock wakes me up via the vibrator in my
>> pillow.
>>
>> I then get up and check my mobile for messages.
>>
>> I have not seen a alarm clock that I can connect to a mobile phone in
>> the same way as mien does to a landline.
>>
>
> Did you miss this?

I still have a "landline" but its actually provided over FTTP by voafone
who ported my landline number over to the VOIP line. when rining the
house phone number, the alarm clock responds to the ring signal and
pulses the vibrator in my pillow.

Although my mobile does have an internal vibrator, I don;t fancy keeping
my head in close proximity for 8+ hours next to a RF energy source.....

>>> It won’t
>>> suit everyone for a variety of reasons but it’s an option.
>
> Tim
>
>

On 11/10/2021 17:54, Tweed wrote:
> Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:
>> On 11/10/2021 15:53, Tweed wrote:
>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> On 11/10/2021 15:04, Wilf wrote:
>>>>> Actually, I don't know that it is "their decision". I think it has been
>>>>> mandated by Ofcom. But in any case, I'm pretty sure that when the time
>>>>> comes for any of us to change, we will get the necessary information and
>>>>> be supplied with any required equipment.

>>>> I am sure that will have to happen. There are many people with even
>>>> less technical knowledge than most us. Some might have broadband but
>>>> only use it occasionally.
>>>>
>>>> Most want a phone in several rooms around the house. I certainly do not
>>>> want to carry a mobile phone around, mine does not get used much and
>>>> mainly for the horrible verification system when you make any online
>>>> payment.
>>>>
>>>> The mobile phone sits on top of some books in the bookcase and is often
>>>> forgotten when I go out!
>>>>
>>>> BT are making the change for their benefit, we do not get any benefit
>>>> and a degradation in service, the worst being we not long have a phone
>>>> when the power goes off and have to keep the router always powered.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect there are going to lots of letters to MPs when as they start
>>>> to changeover.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You can back feed your router’s analogue phone output into your existing
>>> extension wiring. You can even get a special replacement master socket
>>> faceplate if you want to do it neatly.
>>
>> That's what I was going to attempt, so it's good to know that should work.
>>
>> Thanks to everyone who has commented

> Have a read here
>
> https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_How_to:_Voice_reinjection

Looks too complicated for most telephone *users*.

--
Max Demian

On 12/10/2021 08:58, MB wrote:
> On 12/10/2021 08:46, Tweed wrote:
>> You can’t get through if there’s a power cut, as everyone else is
>> trying to
>> ring up…..
>
> In practice I think they tend to presume the electricity company will know.

A couple of times my "actual" electricity providers [1] (SSE Southern
Electric) have rung me up (on my landline) to ask whether I was having
(or had) a power cut. I hadn't. So their automatic systems aren't
infallible.

[1] They must have got my number for EDF, the "bill senders".

--
Max Demian