Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> Wrote in message:
>> Total check-in time and time spent in security queues when boarding
>> trains crossing borders from
>> France-Switzerland, Switzerland-Italy, Italy-Switzerland, and Switzerland-France: zero.
>> Number of times we had to show passports and Covid-19 vaccination certificates: zero.
>> Surely full UK membership of Schengen would be a huge benefit to
>> everyone who ever goes abroad?
>
> I'm as pro-EU as anyone, but to be honest Schengen membership
> never made a lot of sense for the UK (which is of course why it
> had no trouble getting an opt out - the EU never pushed for it
> either.)
>
> The purpose of Schengen is to stop wasting money staffing and
> securing extensive internal land borders, in order to divert
> those resources to securing the external land border. The UK's
> only internal land border is covered by the CTA anyway, so no
> real benefit. On the other side of the scale, you couldn't
> maintain passportless travel with the channel islands/IoM unless
> they also joined Schengen - so, no benefit, but quite a lot of
> political and practical cost.
>
> Passportless travel at airports etc. was only a side effect, and
> you really shouldn't need Schengen to competently manage border
> control in the nice cosy setting of a very limited number of land
> and sea ports. That the UK fails at that is simply massive under
> resourcing of border force over decades.
>

There’s another reason why UK defends its borders. Most (all?) Schengen
countries have some form of ID card. You can in theory be asked to prove
your identity within the country and therefore establish your right to be
there. Many countries still insist on your passport details being taken by
hotels. We in UK (also Ireland?) have no such ID system. It’s one reason
why we are popular with illegal immigrants as it is reasonably easy to
disappear once in. (There are, of course, other reasons)

Friends in Germany are completely unable to comprehend how we can lead a
normal life without an ID card.

On 15/04/2022 07:16, Clank wrote:
> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> Wrote in message:
>> Total check-in time and time spent in security queues when boarding trains crossing borders from
>> France-Switzerland, Switzerland-Italy, Italy-Switzerland, and Switzerland-France: zero.
>> Number of times we had to show passports and Covid-19 vaccination certificates: zero.
>> Surely full UK membership of Schengen would be a huge benefit to everyone who ever goes abroad?
>
> I'm as pro-EU as anyone, but to be honest Schengen membership
> never made a lot of sense for the UK (which is of course why it
> had no trouble getting an opt out - the EU never pushed for it
> either.)

Agreed.

>
> The purpose of Schengen is to stop wasting money staffing and
> securing extensive internal land borders, in order to divert
> those resources to securing the external land border. The UK's
> only internal land border is covered by the CTA anyway, so no
> real benefit. On the other side of the scale, you couldn't
> maintain passportless travel with the channel islands/IoM unless
> they also joined Schengen - so, no benefit, but quite a lot of
> political and practical cost.

What problem would there be in including The Channel Islands and the
Isle of Man in Schengen along with the UK?

>
> Passportless travel at airports etc. was only a side effect, and
> you really shouldn't need Schengen to competently manage border
> control in the nice cosy setting of a very limited number of land
> and sea ports. That the UK fails at that is simply massive under
> resourcing of border force over decades.
>

Amen!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I’ve some sympathy for the airlines and airports but they are authors of
>> their own doom to some extent. There wasn’t a huge amount of support from
>> government so staff had to be made redundant. Getting them all back,
>> trained and security cleared isn’t easy, especially as,it wasn’t 100% clear
>> that we would be travelling largely restriction free by Easter.
>>
>
> There's a Tom Scott video on the topic: <https://youtu.be/JA3RXeds0_g>
>
>> (Interestingly nobody wanted to see my vaccine passes to or from Madeira).
>>
>
> Not even at check-in, or at the gate?
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>
>

Someone I know who is a UK national residing in the US on a green card
visited the UK at the end of March and then returned home 3 weeks ago on
a visit to see relatives. They reported that no Covid checks of any kind
were done in either direction, not even requests to see vaccine status
documentation.
Route was Chicago- Heathrow and return .

GH

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I’ve some sympathy for the airlines and airports but they are authors of
>>> their own doom to some extent. There wasn’t a huge amount of support from
>>> government so staff had to be made redundant. Getting them all back,
>>> trained and security cleared isn’t easy, especially as,it wasn’t 100% clear
>>> that we would be travelling largely restriction free by Easter.
>>>
>>
>> There's a Tom Scott video on the topic: <https://youtu.be/JA3RXeds0_g>
>>
>>> (Interestingly nobody wanted to see my vaccine passes to or from Madeira).
>>>
>>
>> Not even at check-in, or at the gate?
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>>
>>
>
> Nope. Had them ready on my phone and also paper copies. Madeira is still
> pretty strict on mask wearing in indoors public places, with everyone
> complying and EasyJet enforce mask wearing if either end of the route still
> has mandatory mask wearing. There’s talk of Portugal abandoning mask
> wearing in the coming weeks.

I've had to upload my NHS vaccination certificate to the airline before
check-in, and to the destination country (to get the PLF QR code). Once
you've done that, no humans need to see it. Of course, it's no longer
required for the return to the UK.

On 15/04/2022 08:40, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 15/04/2022 07:16, Clank wrote:
>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> Wrote in message:
>>> Total check-in time and time spent in security queues when boarding
>>> trains crossing borders from
>>> France-Switzerland, Switzerland-Italy, Italy-Switzerland, and
>>> Switzerland-France: zero.
>>> Number of times we had to show passports and Covid-19 vaccination
>>> certificates: zero.
>>> Surely full UK membership of Schengen would be a huge benefit to
>>> everyone who ever goes abroad?
>>
>> I'm as pro-EU as anyone, but to be honest Schengen membership
>>   never made a lot of sense for the UK (which is of course why it
>>   had no trouble getting an opt out - the EU never pushed for it
>>   either.)
>
> Agreed.
>
>>
>> The purpose of Schengen is to stop wasting money staffing and
>>   securing extensive internal land borders, in order to divert
>>   those resources to securing the external land border. The UK's
>>   only internal land border is covered by the CTA anyway, so no
>>   real benefit.  On the other side of the scale, you couldn't
>>   maintain passportless travel with the channel islands/IoM unless
>>   they also joined Schengen - so, no benefit, but quite a lot of
>>   political and practical cost.
>
> What problem would there be in including The Channel Islands and the
> Isle of Man in Schengen along with the UK?
Perhaps they don't want to be in Schengen. More to the point I don't
think the present HMG wants to be in Shhengen for obvious political reasons.
>
>>
>> Passportless travel at airports etc. was only a side effect, and
>>   you really shouldn't need Schengen to competently manage border
>>   control in the nice cosy setting of a very limited number of land
>>   and sea ports. That the UK fails at that is simply massive under
>>   resourcing of border force over decades.
>>
>
> Amen!
>

In message <jbsn53F3hl8U1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:02:44 on Fri, 15
Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I’ve some sympathy for the airlines and airports but they are authors of
>>> their own doom to some extent. There wasn’t a huge amount of support from
>>> government so staff had to be made redundant. Getting them all back,
>>> trained and security cleared isn’t easy, especially as,it wasn’t
>>>100% clear
>>> that we would be travelling largely restriction free by Easter.
>>>
>>
>> There's a Tom Scott video on the topic: <https://youtu.be/JA3RXeds0_g>
>>
>>> (Interestingly nobody wanted to see my vaccine passes to or from Madeira).
>>>
>>
>> Not even at check-in, or at the gate?
>
>Someone I know who is a UK national residing in the US on a green card
>visited the UK at the end of March and then returned home 3 weeks ago on
>a visit to see relatives. They reported that no Covid checks of any kind
>were done in either direction,

Not even lateral flow tests?

> not even requests to see vaccine status
>documentation.
>Route was Chicago- Heathrow and return .

Does the USA even have a co-ordinated vaccination certificate. Last I
heard every state had a different scheme (the joys of being a federal
republic).
--
Roland Perry

On 15/04/2022 09:17, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
> On 15/04/2022 08:40, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 15/04/2022 07:16, Clank wrote:
>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> Wrote in message:
>>>> Total check-in time and time spent in security queues when boarding
>>>> trains crossing borders from
>>>> France-Switzerland, Switzerland-Italy, Italy-Switzerland, and
>>>> Switzerland-France: zero.
>>>> Number of times we had to show passports and Covid-19 vaccination
>>>> certificates: zero.
>>>> Surely full UK membership of Schengen would be a huge benefit to
>>>> everyone who ever goes abroad?
>>>
>>> I'm as pro-EU as anyone, but to be honest Schengen membership
>>>   never made a lot of sense for the UK (which is of course why it
>>>   had no trouble getting an opt out - the EU never pushed for it
>>>   either.)
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>>>
>>> The purpose of Schengen is to stop wasting money staffing and
>>>   securing extensive internal land borders, in order to divert
>>>   those resources to securing the external land border. The UK's
>>>   only internal land border is covered by the CTA anyway, so no
>>>   real benefit.  On the other side of the scale, you couldn't
>>>   maintain passportless travel with the channel islands/IoM unless
>>>   they also joined Schengen - so, no benefit, but quite a lot of
>>>   political and practical cost.
>>
>> What problem would there be in including The Channel Islands and the
>> Isle of Man in Schengen along with the UK?
> Perhaps they don't want to be in Schengen.

Has anyone asked them?

More to the point I don't
> think the present HMG wants to be in Shhengen for obvious political
> reasons.

That's a given, the theoretical question was if the UK /was/ to join
Schengen why would it be a problem for islands that are already part of
the CTA?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <jbsn53F3hl8U1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:02:44 on Fri, 15
> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’ve some sympathy for the airlines and airports but they are authors of
>>>> their own doom to some extent. There wasn’t a huge amount of support from
>>>> government so staff had to be made redundant. Getting them all back,
>>>> trained and security cleared isn’t easy, especially as,it wasn’t
>>>> 100% clear
>>>> that we would be travelling largely restriction free by Easter.
>>>>
>>>
>>> There's a Tom Scott video on the topic: <https://youtu.be/JA3RXeds0_g>
>>>
>>>> (Interestingly nobody wanted to see my vaccine passes to or from Madeira).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not even at check-in, or at the gate?
>>
>> Someone I know who is a UK national residing in the US on a green card
>> visited the UK at the end of March and then returned home 3 weeks ago on
>> a visit to see relatives. They reported that no Covid checks of any kind
>> were done in either direction,
>
> Not even lateral flow tests?

The UK hasn't required any tests for months, and even the hated PLF was
abolished last month. So there are now no Covid-related restrictions or
documents required for travel to the UK. The UK also doesn't require masks
to be worn on UK-bound flights (of course, some airlines might still insist
on them). So, travel to the UK is back to pre-Covid days.

>
>> not even requests to see vaccine status
>> documentation.
>> Route was Chicago- Heathrow and return .
>
> Does the USA even have a co-ordinated vaccination certificate. Last I
> heard every state had a different scheme (the joys of being a federal
> republic).

I believe the US still requires proof of full vaccination and a negative
test before boarding flights to the US:

<https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/usa/entry-requirements>

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> The UK hasn't required any tests for months, and even the hated PLF was
> abolished last month. So there are now no Covid-related restrictions or
> documents required for travel to the UK. The UK also doesn't require masks
> to be worn on UK-bound flights (of course, some airlines might still insist
> on them). So, travel to the UK is back to pre-Covid days.
>
>>
>>> not even requests to see vaccine status
>>> documentation.
>>> Route was Chicago- Heathrow and return .
>>
>> Does the USA even have a co-ordinated vaccination certificate. Last I
>> heard every state had a different scheme (the joys of being a federal
>> republic).
>
>
> I believe the US still requires proof of full vaccination and a negative
> test before boarding flights to the US:
>
> <https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/usa/entry-requirements>
>

I’m off by sea next week and have to pass a negative test before boarding ,
a test for the US side has to be done shortly before arrival for their
regulations .
That was why I was surprised my acquaintance wasn’t checked on their return
..
Maybe it was staff shortage.

GH

In message <t3bdj8$l1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:23:52 on Fri, 15 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <jbsn53F3hl8U1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:02:44 on Fri, 15
>> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I’ve some sympathy for the airlines and airports but they are authors of
>>>>> their own doom to some extent. There wasn’t a huge amount of
>>>>>support from
>>>>> government so staff had to be made redundant. Getting them all back,
>>>>> trained and security cleared isn’t easy, especially as,it wasn’t
>>>>> 100% clear
>>>>> that we would be travelling largely restriction free by Easter.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There's a Tom Scott video on the topic: <https://youtu.be/JA3RXeds0_g>
>>>>
>>>>> (Interestingly nobody wanted to see my vaccine passes to or from Madeira).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not even at check-in, or at the gate?
>>>
>>> Someone I know who is a UK national residing in the US on a green card
>>> visited the UK at the end of March and then returned home 3 weeks ago on
>>> a visit to see relatives. They reported that no Covid checks of any kind
>>> were done in either direction,
>>
>> Not even lateral flow tests?
>
>The UK hasn't required any tests for months,

The travel described was in both directions.

>and even the hated PLF was
>abolished last month. So there are now no Covid-related restrictions or
>documents required for travel to the UK. The UK also doesn't require masks
>to be worn on UK-bound flights (of course, some airlines might still insist
>on them). So, travel to the UK is back to pre-Covid days.
>
>>
>>> not even requests to see vaccine status
>>> documentation.
>>> Route was Chicago- Heathrow and return .
>>
>> Does the USA even have a co-ordinated vaccination certificate. Last I
>> heard every state had a different scheme (the joys of being a federal
>> republic).
>
>I believe the US still requires proof of full vaccination and a negative
>test before boarding flights to the US:
>
><https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/usa/entry-requirements>

Almost:

"Before boarding a flight to the USA, most passengers - regardless of
vaccination status - are required to show a negative COVID-19 test
result taken no more than 1 day before travel.

Upon arrival, fully vaccinated travellers:

do not have to quarantine
are recommended to take a viral test within 3 to 5 days of arrival

If you have recovered from a documented COVID-19 infection within the
past 90 days (regardless of vaccination status):

you do not need to get a test 3 to 5 days after travel

--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:15:13 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 15/04/2022 09:17, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>> On 15/04/2022 08:40, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 15/04/2022 07:16, Clank wrote:
>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> Wrote in message:
>>>>> Total check-in time and time spent in security queues when boarding
>>>>> trains crossing borders from
>>>>> France-Switzerland, Switzerland-Italy, Italy-Switzerland, and
>>>>> Switzerland-France: zero.
>>>>> Number of times we had to show passports and Covid-19 vaccination
>>>>> certificates: zero.
>>>>> Surely full UK membership of Schengen would be a huge benefit to
>>>>> everyone who ever goes abroad?
>>>>
>>>> I'm as pro-EU as anyone, but to be honest Schengen membership
>>>>   never made a lot of sense for the UK (which is of course why it
>>>>   had no trouble getting an opt out - the EU never pushed for it
>>>>   either.)
>>>
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of Schengen is to stop wasting money staffing and
>>>>   securing extensive internal land borders, in order to divert
>>>>   those resources to securing the external land border. The UK's
>>>>   only internal land border is covered by the CTA anyway, so no
>>>>   real benefit.  On the other side of the scale, you couldn't
>>>>   maintain passportless travel with the channel islands/IoM unless
>>>>   they also joined Schengen - so, no benefit, but quite a lot of
>>>>   political and practical cost.
>>>
>>> What problem would there be in including The Channel Islands and the
>>> Isle of Man in Schengen along with the UK?
>> Perhaps they don't want to be in Schengen.
>
>Has anyone asked them?

Probably, and the answer would almost certainly be 'no'. The idea that anyone from the EU could choose to live in the
CI without restriction would horrify the islanders.

>
>More to the point I don't
>> think the present HMG wants to be in Shhengen for obvious political
>> reasons.
>
>That's a given, the theoretical question was if the UK /was/ to join
>Schengen why would it be a problem for islands that are already part of
>the CTA?

For sure.

On 15/04/2022 12:28, Recliner wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:15:13 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 15/04/2022 09:17, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>> On 15/04/2022 08:40, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 15/04/2022 07:16, Clank wrote:
>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> Wrote in message:
>>>>>> Total check-in time and time spent in security queues when boarding
>>>>>> trains crossing borders from
>>>>>> France-Switzerland, Switzerland-Italy, Italy-Switzerland, and
>>>>>> Switzerland-France: zero.
>>>>>> Number of times we had to show passports and Covid-19 vaccination
>>>>>> certificates: zero.
>>>>>> Surely full UK membership of Schengen would be a huge benefit to
>>>>>> everyone who ever goes abroad?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm as pro-EU as anyone, but to be honest Schengen membership
>>>>>   never made a lot of sense for the UK (which is of course why it
>>>>>   had no trouble getting an opt out - the EU never pushed for it
>>>>>   either.)
>>>>
>>>> Agreed.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The purpose of Schengen is to stop wasting money staffing and
>>>>>   securing extensive internal land borders, in order to divert
>>>>>   those resources to securing the external land border. The UK's
>>>>>   only internal land border is covered by the CTA anyway, so no
>>>>>   real benefit.  On the other side of the scale, you couldn't
>>>>>   maintain passportless travel with the channel islands/IoM unless
>>>>>   they also joined Schengen - so, no benefit, but quite a lot of
>>>>>   political and practical cost.
>>>>
>>>> What problem would there be in including The Channel Islands and the
>>>> Isle of Man in Schengen along with the UK?
>>> Perhaps they don't want to be in Schengen.
>>
>> Has anyone asked them?
>
> Probably, and the answer would almost certainly be 'no'.

So you don't know.

The idea that anyone from the EU could choose to live in the
> CI without restriction would horrify the islanders.

That's not an automatic consequence of joining Schengen, ask the Swiss.

>
>>
>> More to the point I don't
>>> think the present HMG wants to be in Shhengen for obvious political
>>> reasons.
>>
>> That's a given, the theoretical question was if the UK /was/ to join
>> Schengen why would it be a problem for islands that are already part of
>> the CTA?
>
> For sure.

What's for sure?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:52:10 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 15/04/2022 12:28, Recliner wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:15:13 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 15/04/2022 09:17, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>> On 15/04/2022 08:40, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 15/04/2022 07:16, Clank wrote:
>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> Wrote in message:
>>>>>>> Total check-in time and time spent in security queues when boarding
>>>>>>> trains crossing borders from
>>>>>>> France-Switzerland, Switzerland-Italy, Italy-Switzerland, and
>>>>>>> Switzerland-France: zero.
>>>>>>> Number of times we had to show passports and Covid-19 vaccination
>>>>>>> certificates: zero.
>>>>>>> Surely full UK membership of Schengen would be a huge benefit to
>>>>>>> everyone who ever goes abroad?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm as pro-EU as anyone, but to be honest Schengen membership
>>>>>>   never made a lot of sense for the UK (which is of course why it
>>>>>>   had no trouble getting an opt out - the EU never pushed for it
>>>>>>   either.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The purpose of Schengen is to stop wasting money staffing and
>>>>>>   securing extensive internal land borders, in order to divert
>>>>>>   those resources to securing the external land border. The UK's
>>>>>>   only internal land border is covered by the CTA anyway, so no
>>>>>>   real benefit.  On the other side of the scale, you couldn't
>>>>>>   maintain passportless travel with the channel islands/IoM unless
>>>>>>   they also joined Schengen - so, no benefit, but quite a lot of
>>>>>>   political and practical cost.
>>>>>
>>>>> What problem would there be in including The Channel Islands and the
>>>>> Isle of Man in Schengen along with the UK?
>>>> Perhaps they don't want to be in Schengen.
>>>
>>> Has anyone asked them?
>>
>> Probably, and the answer would almost certainly be 'no'.
>
>So you don't know.

Why would anyone have asked them, as there was zero prospect of it happening?

>
>
>The idea that anyone from the EU could choose to live in the
>> CI without restriction would horrify the islanders.
>
>That's not an automatic consequence of joining Schengen, ask the Swiss.

Citizens from Europe’s Schengen area, the European Union and EFTA do not require visas to enter and stay in the country
for 90 days.

Stays for longer than 90 days are possible without a visa but you must apply for a residence permit. Accords with the EU
governing the free movement of people allow EU citizens to apply for residency while in Switzerland.

<https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/entry-exit/29014704>

On 15/04/2022 12:58, Recliner wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:52:10 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 15/04/2022 12:28, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:15:13 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 15/04/2022 09:17, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 15/04/2022 08:40, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 07:16, Clank wrote:
>>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> Wrote in message:
>>>>>>>> Total check-in time and time spent in security queues when boarding
>>>>>>>> trains crossing borders from
>>>>>>>> France-Switzerland, Switzerland-Italy, Italy-Switzerland, and
>>>>>>>> Switzerland-France: zero.
>>>>>>>> Number of times we had to show passports and Covid-19 vaccination
>>>>>>>> certificates: zero.
>>>>>>>> Surely full UK membership of Schengen would be a huge benefit to
>>>>>>>> everyone who ever goes abroad?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm as pro-EU as anyone, but to be honest Schengen membership
>>>>>>>   never made a lot of sense for the UK (which is of course why it
>>>>>>>   had no trouble getting an opt out - the EU never pushed for it
>>>>>>>   either.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The purpose of Schengen is to stop wasting money staffing and
>>>>>>>   securing extensive internal land borders, in order to divert
>>>>>>>   those resources to securing the external land border. The UK's
>>>>>>>   only internal land border is covered by the CTA anyway, so no
>>>>>>>   real benefit.  On the other side of the scale, you couldn't
>>>>>>>   maintain passportless travel with the channel islands/IoM unless
>>>>>>>   they also joined Schengen - so, no benefit, but quite a lot of
>>>>>>>   political and practical cost.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What problem would there be in including The Channel Islands and the
>>>>>> Isle of Man in Schengen along with the UK?
>>>>> Perhaps they don't want to be in Schengen.
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone asked them?
>>>
>>> Probably, and the answer would almost certainly be 'no'.
>>
>> So you don't know.
>
> Why would anyone have asked them, as there was zero prospect of it happening?

CI and IoM could probably become de facto part of Schengen without
formally joining, like Monaco and San Marino, but might not want that.
The republic of Ireland would have to join Schengen too. Has anyone
asked them?

>> The idea that anyone from the EU could choose to live in the
>>> CI without restriction would horrify the islanders.
>>
>> That's not an automatic consequence of joining Schengen, ask the Swiss.
>
> Citizens from Europe’s Schengen area, the European Union and EFTA do not require visas to enter and stay in the country
> for 90 days.
>
> Stays for longer than 90 days are possible without a visa but you must apply for a residence permit. Accords with the EU
> governing the free movement of people allow EU citizens to apply for residency while in Switzerland.
>
> <https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/entry-exit/29014704>

Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 15/04/2022 12:58, Recliner wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:52:10 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 15/04/2022 12:28, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:15:13 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 15/04/2022 09:17, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 08:40, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 07:16, Clank wrote:
>>>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> Wrote in message:
>>>>>>>>> Total check-in time and time spent in security queues when boarding
>>>>>>>>> trains crossing borders from
>>>>>>>>> France-Switzerland, Switzerland-Italy, Italy-Switzerland, and
>>>>>>>>> Switzerland-France: zero.
>>>>>>>>> Number of times we had to show passports and Covid-19 vaccination
>>>>>>>>> certificates: zero.
>>>>>>>>> Surely full UK membership of Schengen would be a huge benefit to
>>>>>>>>> everyone who ever goes abroad?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm as pro-EU as anyone, but to be honest Schengen membership
>>>>>>>>   never made a lot of sense for the UK (which is of course why it
>>>>>>>>   had no trouble getting an opt out - the EU never pushed for it
>>>>>>>>   either.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The purpose of Schengen is to stop wasting money staffing and
>>>>>>>>   securing extensive internal land borders, in order to divert
>>>>>>>>   those resources to securing the external land border. The UK's
>>>>>>>>   only internal land border is covered by the CTA anyway, so no
>>>>>>>>   real benefit.  On the other side of the scale, you couldn't
>>>>>>>>   maintain passportless travel with the channel islands/IoM unless
>>>>>>>>   they also joined Schengen - so, no benefit, but quite a lot of
>>>>>>>>   political and practical cost.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What problem would there be in including The Channel Islands and the
>>>>>>> Isle of Man in Schengen along with the UK?
>>>>>> Perhaps they don't want to be in Schengen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone asked them?
>>>>
>>>> Probably, and the answer would almost certainly be 'no'.
>>>
>>> So you don't know.
>>
>> Why would anyone have asked them, as there was zero prospect of it happening?
>
> CI and IoM could probably become de facto part of Schengen without
> formally joining, like Monaco and San Marino, but might not want that.
> The republic of Ireland would have to join Schengen too. Has anyone
> asked them?
>
>>> The idea that anyone from the EU could choose to live in the
>>>> CI without restriction would horrify the islanders.
>>>
>>> That's not an automatic consequence of joining Schengen, ask the Swiss.
>>
>> Citizens from Europe’s Schengen area, the European Union and EFTA do not
>> require visas to enter and stay in the country
>> for 90 days.
>>
>> Stays for longer than 90 days are possible without a visa but you must
>> apply for a residence permit. Accords with the EU
>> governing the free movement of people allow EU citizens to apply for
>> residency while in Switzerland.
>>
>> <https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/entry-exit/29014704>
>

If UK joined Schengen it would put the vendors of cross channel rubber
boats out if business, as Boris desires, but not with the end effect that a
large chunk of the UK population would accept.

On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> electronic gates all working.
>>
>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>> they were allowed in.)
>>
>
>New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>smuggling/forced marriage etc.

The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.

Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>
>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>
>>
>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>
> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>

Couldn’t or wouldn’t? ie error or deliberately programmed to reject? Bit
like my Anytime ticket that wouldn’t open the gate line because of an
associated rail card.

On 15/04/2022 12:58, Recliner wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:52:10 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 15/04/2022 12:28, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:15:13 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 15/04/2022 09:17, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 15/04/2022 08:40, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 07:16, Clank wrote:
>>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> Wrote in message:
>>>>>>>> Total check-in time and time spent in security queues when boarding
>>>>>>>> trains crossing borders from
>>>>>>>> France-Switzerland, Switzerland-Italy, Italy-Switzerland, and
>>>>>>>> Switzerland-France: zero.
>>>>>>>> Number of times we had to show passports and Covid-19 vaccination
>>>>>>>> certificates: zero.
>>>>>>>> Surely full UK membership of Schengen would be a huge benefit to
>>>>>>>> everyone who ever goes abroad?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm as pro-EU as anyone, but to be honest Schengen membership
>>>>>>>   never made a lot of sense for the UK (which is of course why it
>>>>>>>   had no trouble getting an opt out - the EU never pushed for it
>>>>>>>   either.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The purpose of Schengen is to stop wasting money staffing and
>>>>>>>   securing extensive internal land borders, in order to divert
>>>>>>>   those resources to securing the external land border. The UK's
>>>>>>>   only internal land border is covered by the CTA anyway, so no
>>>>>>>   real benefit.  On the other side of the scale, you couldn't
>>>>>>>   maintain passportless travel with the channel islands/IoM unless
>>>>>>>   they also joined Schengen - so, no benefit, but quite a lot of
>>>>>>>   political and practical cost.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What problem would there be in including The Channel Islands and the
>>>>>> Isle of Man in Schengen along with the UK?
>>>>> Perhaps they don't want to be in Schengen.
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone asked them?
>>>
>>> Probably, and the answer would almost certainly be 'no'.
>>
>> So you don't know.
>
> Why would anyone have asked them, as there was zero prospect of it happening?

You just claimed someone probably did ask them, make up your mind.

>
>>
>>
>> The idea that anyone from the EU could choose to live in the
>>> CI without restriction would horrify the islanders.
>>
>> That's not an automatic consequence of joining Schengen, ask the Swiss.
>
> Citizens from Europe’s Schengen area, the European Union and EFTA do not require visas to enter and stay in the country
> for 90 days.
>
> Stays for longer than 90 days are possible without a visa but you must apply for a residence permit. Accords with the EU
> governing the free movement of people allow EU citizens to apply for residency while in Switzerland.
>
> <https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/entry-exit/29014704>
>

Precisely.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <b8vi5htjjod31qd6v9mha9in6m82pv7vva@4ax.com>, at 15:12:51 on
Fri, 15 Apr 2022, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
><usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>
>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>> they were allowed in.)
>>
>>New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>
>The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.

In what way could it "not handle" them. Are they for example a different
size, or without the biometric chip?

Or did it read the passport and say "nah", which is handling, even if
not the desired result.

Is there any signage saying *all* new passports can't be used?
--
Roland Perry

In message <t3bum8$m22$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:15:36 on Fri, 15 Apr
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>
>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>
>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>
>Couldn’t or wouldn’t? ie error or deliberately programmed to reject? Bit
>like my Anytime ticket that wouldn’t open the gate line because of an
>associated rail card.

The gate "handled" the ticket, and decided that it wasn't acceptable. I
get that all the time with off-peak returns being rejected at Kings
Cross in the evening rush hour, despite being valid to [may change from
one fare manual to the next] destinations north of Cambridge.

Similarly, back in the day, I used to have valid anytime return from
north of the river to London Bridge mainline consistently rejected by
the barriers there. But it read them first, which was the important
thing.
--
Roland Perry

On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>
>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>
>>
>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>
> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.

I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
children.

what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 15/04/2022 12:58, Recliner wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:52:10 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 15/04/2022 12:28, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:15:13 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 15/04/2022 09:17, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 08:40, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 07:16, Clank wrote:
>>>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> Wrote in message:
>>>>>>>>> Total check-in time and time spent in security queues when boarding
>>>>>>>>> trains crossing borders from
>>>>>>>>> France-Switzerland, Switzerland-Italy, Italy-Switzerland, and
>>>>>>>>> Switzerland-France: zero.
>>>>>>>>> Number of times we had to show passports and Covid-19 vaccination
>>>>>>>>> certificates: zero.
>>>>>>>>> Surely full UK membership of Schengen would be a huge benefit to
>>>>>>>>> everyone who ever goes abroad?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm as pro-EU as anyone, but to be honest Schengen membership
>>>>>>>>   never made a lot of sense for the UK (which is of course why it
>>>>>>>>   had no trouble getting an opt out - the EU never pushed for it
>>>>>>>>   either.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The purpose of Schengen is to stop wasting money staffing and
>>>>>>>>   securing extensive internal land borders, in order to divert
>>>>>>>>   those resources to securing the external land border. The UK's
>>>>>>>>   only internal land border is covered by the CTA anyway, so no
>>>>>>>>   real benefit.  On the other side of the scale, you couldn't
>>>>>>>>   maintain passportless travel with the channel islands/IoM unless
>>>>>>>>   they also joined Schengen - so, no benefit, but quite a lot of
>>>>>>>>   political and practical cost.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What problem would there be in including The Channel Islands and the
>>>>>>> Isle of Man in Schengen along with the UK?
>>>>>> Perhaps they don't want to be in Schengen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone asked them?
>>>>
>>>> Probably, and the answer would almost certainly be 'no'.
>>>
>>> So you don't know.
>>
>> Why would anyone have asked them, as there was zero prospect of it happening?
>
> You just claimed someone probably did ask them, make up your mind.
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The idea that anyone from the EU could choose to live in the
>>>> CI without restriction would horrify the islanders.
>>>
>>> That's not an automatic consequence of joining Schengen, ask the Swiss.
>>
>> Citizens from Europe’s Schengen area, the European Union and EFTA do not
>> require visas to enter and stay in the country
>> for 90 days.
>>
>> Stays for longer than 90 days are possible without a visa but you must
>> apply for a residence permit. Accords with the EU
>> governing the free movement of people allow EU citizens to apply for
>> residency while in Switzerland.
>>
>> <https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/entry-exit/29014704>
>>
>
> Precisely.
>

In other words, EU citizens are free to live and work in Switzerland. That
wouldn't be acceptable to the CI.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>
>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>
>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>
> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
> children.
>
> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>
>

We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
they’ve left?

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 15/04/2022 12:58, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:52:10 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 15/04/2022 12:28, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:15:13 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 09:17, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 08:40, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 07:16, Clank wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> Wrote in message:
>>>>>>>>>> Total check-in time and time spent in security queues when boarding
>>>>>>>>>> trains crossing borders from
>>>>>>>>>> France-Switzerland, Switzerland-Italy, Italy-Switzerland, and
>>>>>>>>>> Switzerland-France: zero.
>>>>>>>>>> Number of times we had to show passports and Covid-19 vaccination
>>>>>>>>>> certificates: zero.
>>>>>>>>>> Surely full UK membership of Schengen would be a huge benefit to
>>>>>>>>>> everyone who ever goes abroad?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm as pro-EU as anyone, but to be honest Schengen membership
>>>>>>>>>   never made a lot of sense for the UK (which is of course why it
>>>>>>>>>   had no trouble getting an opt out - the EU never pushed for it
>>>>>>>>>   either.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The purpose of Schengen is to stop wasting money staffing and
>>>>>>>>>   securing extensive internal land borders, in order to divert
>>>>>>>>>   those resources to securing the external land border. The UK's
>>>>>>>>>   only internal land border is covered by the CTA anyway, so no
>>>>>>>>>   real benefit.  On the other side of the scale, you couldn't
>>>>>>>>>   maintain passportless travel with the channel islands/IoM unless
>>>>>>>>>   they also joined Schengen - so, no benefit, but quite a lot of
>>>>>>>>>   political and practical cost.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What problem would there be in including The Channel Islands and the
>>>>>>>> Isle of Man in Schengen along with the UK?
>>>>>>> Perhaps they don't want to be in Schengen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Has anyone asked them?
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably, and the answer would almost certainly be 'no'.
>>>>
>>>> So you don't know.
>>>
>>> Why would anyone have asked them, as there was zero prospect of it happening?
>>
>> You just claimed someone probably did ask them, make up your mind.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The idea that anyone from the EU could choose to live in the
>>>>> CI without restriction would horrify the islanders.
>>>>
>>>> That's not an automatic consequence of joining Schengen, ask the Swiss.
>>>
>>> Citizens from Europe’s Schengen area, the European Union and EFTA do not
>>> require visas to enter and stay in the country
>>> for 90 days.
>>>
>>> Stays for longer than 90 days are possible without a visa but you must
>>> apply for a residence permit. Accords with the EU
>>> governing the free movement of people allow EU citizens to apply for
>>> residency while in Switzerland.
>>>
>>> <https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/entry-exit/29014704>
>>>
>>
>> Precisely.
>>
>
> In other words, EU citizens are free to live and work in Switzerland. That
> wouldn't be acceptable to the CI.
>
>

I think you might find getting a Swiss residence permit isn’t easy unless
you meet certain conditions. Likewise the CI. Having lots of money helps in
both cases. Speaking of which, I’ve discovered Portugal will give you an EU
passport of you have half a million Euro to spare to buy a property there.

In message <t3c0e6$406$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:45:25 on Fri, 15 Apr
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>
>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>
>I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of
>the children.
>
>what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged
>marriages.

You saw Border Control at the UK airport? I thought the scheme for
"counting them out and counting them back in again", failed because
no-one was doing the counting-out.

When I used to fly out of East Midlands, there were never any Border
Control people, although occasionally there was a policeman from
Leicestershire constabulary asking people where they were travelling to,
but only at the scheduled airline inter-EU gates, not the "holiday sun"
charter ones.

>The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>

--
Roland Perry