Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 19:34:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 18:22:25 +0100, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/08/2022 17:01, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <td2n4j$25b5t$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:54:12 on Thu, 11 Aug
>>>>> 2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/08/2022 11:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> That's much better than some places who still have signs they forgot to
>>>>>>> take down a year ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have never seen any explanation of what the purpose was of the
>>>>>> COVID-19 PRIORITY ROUTE signs.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was to provide increased road space so cyclists could more easily
>>>>> social distance.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Some are still in place.
>>>>>
>>>>> We had some temporary bollards, long gone, on one road [to the station!]
>>>>>
>>>>> About a dozen additional sites within a one mile radius which were
>>>>> announced, never happened.
>>>>
>>>> A few of Edinburgh's bollards have gone, but most of the road closures
>>>> for which Covid was the excuse seem to have quietly become permanent.
>>>>
>>> The extra "cycle lanes" in my burgh have all now been removed.
>>> Cyclists were rarely seen in them and in one location it "hi-jacked" a
>>> bus lane used by multiple bus routes leaving one lane for all traffic
>>> which soon got stuck behind buses causing consequent congestion up to
>>> a mile away.
>>>
>>
>> Was that the one on Sheepcote Road?
>>
> Yes.
>

That was a particularly stupid one, so it's a good thing it didn't last too
long. Fortunately Harrow Council seems to be more sensible than, say,
Ealing next door.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <td16q0$1ubsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:09:20 on Wed, 10 Aug
>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <tcttfj$1dv70$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:11:47 on Tue, 9 Aug
>>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On what basis would some passengers be considered trustworthy?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hopefully better than it was 30-odd years ago, the first time I
>>>>>>>>> flew from Edinburgh to London on business. The guys in suits got
>>>>>>>>> waved through, and two of us (not travelling together - he was
>>>>>>>>> unknown to me) in sweaters and anoraks were patted down. I vowed
>>>>>>>>> to wear a suit should I ever take up hijacking.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's a name for that: Carnival Booth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Derivation?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/992/913>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you. On first skim I’m not sure what Roland’s “that”
>>>>> refers to, but I’ll read it properly later.
>>>>
>>>> And thanks to Recliner and Graeme I now conclude that Roland’s “that”
>>>> refers to my deciding to wear a suit.
>>>
>>> It's more about noticing whether suit-wearers got waved through.
>>>
>>>> JFTR I’ve never worn a suit on a plane,
>>>
>>> I got into the habit in the 80's because (a) I needed the suit at the
>>> other end anyway and it reduced the amount of baggage space I needed;
>>> but (b) it made it much more likely to be selected at the gate for a
>>> free upgrade to business class, if they'd overbooked economy.
>>
>> Having spent most of my working life in the techy side of a University or
>> similarly in the NHS (a) has never applied to me, and regarding (b) the
>> only time I’ve ever been upgraded was on holiday, and I definitely wouldn’t
>> wear a suit then.
>>
>
> Upgrades on British airlines were always rare; they're more common on US
> airlines.

Mine was on BA. It was on a flight we were bumped to, and delayed by a
day, because an incoming Iberia flight was late and they couldn’t get us
home the same day. I’m sure I’ve told the tale here before.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <td16q0$1ubsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:09:20 on Wed, 10 Aug
>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <tcttfj$1dv70$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:11:47 on Tue, 9 Aug
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On what basis would some passengers be considered trustworthy?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully better than it was 30-odd years ago, the first time I
>>>>>>>>>> flew from Edinburgh to London on business. The guys in suits got
>>>>>>>>>> waved through, and two of us (not travelling together - he was
>>>>>>>>>> unknown to me) in sweaters and anoraks were patted down. I vowed
>>>>>>>>>> to wear a suit should I ever take up hijacking.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's a name for that: Carnival Booth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Derivation?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/992/913>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you. On first skim I’m not sure what Roland’s “that”
>>>>>> refers to, but I’ll read it properly later.
>>>>>
>>>>> And thanks to Recliner and Graeme I now conclude that Roland’s “that”
>>>>> refers to my deciding to wear a suit.
>>>>
>>>> It's more about noticing whether suit-wearers got waved through.
>>>>
>>>>> JFTR I’ve never worn a suit on a plane,
>>>>
>>>> I got into the habit in the 80's because (a) I needed the suit at the
>>>> other end anyway and it reduced the amount of baggage space I needed;
>>>> but (b) it made it much more likely to be selected at the gate for a
>>>> free upgrade to business class, if they'd overbooked economy.
>>>
>>> Having spent most of my working life in the techy side of a University or
>>> similarly in the NHS (a) has never applied to me, and regarding (b) the
>>> only time I’ve ever been upgraded was on holiday, and I definitely wouldn’t
>>> wear a suit then.
>>>
>>
>> Upgrades on British airlines were always rare; they're more common on US
>> airlines.
>
> Mine was on BA. It was on a flight we were bumped to, and delayed by a
> day, because an incoming Iberia flight was late and they couldn’t get us
> home the same day. I’m sure I’ve told the tale here before.
>

I suppose they felt they owed you a favour!

I had an amusing experience a little over 30 years ago. My boss and I were
flying to the US, both in Club World. But as we boarded, they invited me to
turn left, to the almost empty First class cabin (my first crossing in that
class). But they didn't upgrade my boss, who duly took his seat in Club. He
was on the wagon at the time, and was content to stay there and work.

I soon discovered the real difference between Club and First: in Club, they
top your glass up on demand, or offer a top-up if they notice it's empty on
their rounds. But, in First, they keep an eye on you, and top you up
whenever your glass is half empty. I think I drank champagne all the way
across the Atlantic, and arrived barely able to stand up (luckily, I'd
filled in my US forms early in the flight). I've been much more sensible on
subsequent long-haul flights in First!

In message <td3m56$28e4m$3@dont-email.me>, at 20:43:35 on Thu, 11 Aug
2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 11/08/2022 17:01, Roland Perry wrote:

>> It was to provide increased road space so cyclists could more easily
>> social distance.
>
>On the pavement when there is already a cycle route signposted?

In the case I have in mind I think it was probably already a shared
pavement (although no cyclists used it, preferring the carriageway), but
they decided that to social distance the cyclists from the also scarce
pedestrians, they had to also steal three feet of the carriageway.
--
Roland Perry

In message <td6eiv$2jgf5$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:52:47 on Fri, 12 Aug
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <td16q0$1ubsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:09:20 on Wed, 10 Aug
>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tcttfj$1dv70$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:11:47 on Tue, 9 Aug
>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On what basis would some passengers be considered trustworthy?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hopefully better than it was 30-odd years ago, the first time I
>>>>>>>> flew from Edinburgh to London on business. The guys in suits got
>>>>>>>> waved through, and two of us (not travelling together - he was
>>>>>>>> unknown to me) in sweaters and anoraks were patted down. I vowed
>>>>>>>> to wear a suit should I ever take up hijacking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's a name for that: Carnival Booth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Derivation?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/992/913>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you. On first skim I’m not sure what Roland’s “that”
>>>> refers to, but I’ll read it properly later.
>>>
>>> And thanks to Recliner and Graeme I now conclude that Roland’s “that”
>>> refers to my deciding to wear a suit.
>>
>> It's more about noticing whether suit-wearers got waved through.
>>
>>> JFTR I’ve never worn a suit on a plane,
>>
>> I got into the habit in the 80's because (a) I needed the suit at the
>> other end anyway and it reduced the amount of baggage space I needed;
>> but (b) it made it much more likely to be selected at the gate for a
>> free upgrade to business class, if they'd overbooked economy.
>
>Having spent most of my working life in the techy side of a University or
>similarly in the NHS (a) has never applied to me,

YMMV, there are still plenty of occupations where suits and tie are
expected. Did you ever see Grant Shapps giving a formal TV interview
in a polo shirt?

It's just a uniform - would you be happy to fly on plane where the pilot
and cabin crew turned up wearing boxer shorts and t-shirts?

>and regarding (b) the only time I’ve ever been upgraded was on
>holiday, and I definitely wouldn’t wear a suit then.

YMMV; the most satisfactory free upgrade I got was probably a long haul
flight where my companion and I were bumped up to First Class from
Business Class on a 100% holiday flight, and while I don't recall if I
was wearing a tie, I was almost certainly wearing a suit (and she the
equivalent).
--
Roland Perry

In message <td95gs$2tuck$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:36:28 on Sat, 13 Aug
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>> Upgrades on British airlines were always rare; they're more common on US
>> airlines.

If that's free upgrades, I agree, BA always was a miserable
penny-pinching airline.

They'd want at least $250 a leg when I was traveling with them
transatlantic.

Fast forward 20years, and I was happy to pay Emirates $100 a leg, just
to get the use of the business class lounge in an extended layover in
Dubai, on an economy ticket

>Mine was on BA. It was on a flight we were bumped to, and delayed by a
>day, because an incoming Iberia flight was late and they couldn’t get us
>home the same day. I’m sure I’ve told the tale here before.

American Airlines used to give frequent flyers little stickers, a bit
like Tesco Clubcard vouchers, which in theory you could cash in whenever
you wanted to (my wife was Platinum, so had dozens of them up her
sleeve).

But when people-watching at the gate (which is where the deals were
done) it was fairly obvious that scruffy people were turned away
presumably having been told there was no availability, while smartly
dressed ones were accepted.

The cabin crew were also visibly more accommodating to the smartly
dressed, once the plane had taken off.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tdbpnj$38tau$1@dont-email.me>, at 00:33:40 on Mon, 15 Aug
2022, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:

>For avoidance of doubt, I never wear a suit... And even if I did,
> I wouldn't for a long-haul flight: loose fitting and comfortable
> is the order of the day.

It's possible to buy comfortable suits too, you know.
--
Roland Perry

In message <td3pf6$28r3n$3@dont-email.me>, at 20:40:06 on Thu, 11 Aug
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <td2g5d$24nfd$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:55:09 on Thu, 11 Aug
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> It's like Covid: many establishments require that you notify them if you
>>> have been experiencing Covid-like symptoms before visiting, but the ones
>>> they list all relate to the original early-2020 variants, not the ones that
>>> are now in circulation.
>>
>> I'm fairly impressed by the posters on some of the doors at the local
>> hopsital saying "if you are visting this department YOU MUST STILL WEAR
>> A MASK" with an "Updated in July 2022" datestamp.
>>
>> That's much better than some places who still have signs they forgot to
>> take down a year ago.
>>
>> ObTransport: drove past a yellow roadside sign this morning saying "this
>> road will be closed for seven days starting 20/06/22".
>>
>> Oh well, I suppose someone will report it as fly-tipping eventually, and
>> get it taken away. On the other hand, having sprayed the road with
>> glue-and-stones (most of which have worn away already) they still
>> haven't got around to re-painting the white lines.
>
>Surface dressing relies on passing traffic over several days to firmly
>embed the stones into the tar layer.

They have what they claim are more modern techniques now.

--
Roland Perry

In message <td59p0$2fqre$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:24:32 on Fri, 12 Aug
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 12/08/2022 11:11, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 12/08/2022 09:56, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 08:55:09 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> It's like Covid: many establishments require that you notify them if you
>>>> have been experiencing Covid-like symptoms before visiting, but the ones
>>>
>>> A godsend for skivers everywhere.
>>>
>>> "Oh you've got covid?
>> Where are the test results?
>>
>I didn't think you could get tests in England?

You can buy LTF at the pharmacy. Maybe £2/£3 each.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 15:43:41 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <td59p0$2fqre$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:24:32 on Fri, 12 Aug
>2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>On 12/08/2022 11:11, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 12/08/2022 09:56, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 08:55:09 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> It's like Covid: many establishments require that you notify them if you
>>>>> have been experiencing Covid-like symptoms before visiting, but the ones
>>>>
>>>> A godsend for skivers everywhere.
>>>>
>>>> "Oh you've got covid?
>>> Where are the test results?
>>>
>>I didn't think you could get tests in England?
>
>You can buy LTF at the pharmacy. Maybe £2/£3 each.
>
Closer to 2 pounds (2-30 -ish in High Street pharmacy chains) and as
low as 1 pound (plus delivery) if you don't need a posh box :-
https://www.medisave.co.uk/covid-lateral-flow-test.html
I haven't used up all my free ones yet.

In message <0ilqfh16pg5iq3o5149ebkd8foash8i905@4ax.com>, at 22:02:47 on
Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 15:43:41 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <td59p0$2fqre$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:24:32 on Fri, 12 Aug
>>2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>On 12/08/2022 11:11, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 12/08/2022 09:56, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 08:55:09 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> It's like Covid: many establishments require that you notify them if you
>>>>>> have been experiencing Covid-like symptoms before visiting, but the ones
>>>>>
>>>>> A godsend for skivers everywhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Oh you've got covid?
>>>> Where are the test results?
>>>>
>>>I didn't think you could get tests in England?
>>
>>You can buy LTF at the pharmacy. Maybe £2/£3 each.
>>
>Closer to 2 pounds (2-30 -ish in High Street pharmacy chains)

If you need one in a hurry, perhaps you can't travel to the nearest High
Street.

>and as low as 1 pound (plus delivery) if you don't need a posh box :-
>https://www.medisave.co.uk/covid-lateral-flow-test.html

>I haven't used up all my free ones yet.

Seriously, you need to check them, I've had to throw away all my free
ones long before their expiry date because the buffer fluid capsules had
leaked/evaporated.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <td6eiv$2jgf5$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:52:47 on Fri, 12 Aug
> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <td16q0$1ubsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:09:20 on Wed, 10 Aug
>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <tcttfj$1dv70$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:11:47 on Tue, 9 Aug
>>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On what basis would some passengers be considered trustworthy?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hopefully better than it was 30-odd years ago, the first time I
>>>>>>>>> flew from Edinburgh to London on business. The guys in suits got
>>>>>>>>> waved through, and two of us (not travelling together - he was
>>>>>>>>> unknown to me) in sweaters and anoraks were patted down. I vowed
>>>>>>>>> to wear a suit should I ever take up hijacking.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's a name for that: Carnival Booth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Derivation?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/992/913>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you. On first skim I’m not sure what Roland’s “that”
>>>>> refers to, but I’ll read it properly later.
>>>>
>>>> And thanks to Recliner and Graeme I now conclude that Roland’s “that”
>>>> refers to my deciding to wear a suit.
>>>
>>> It's more about noticing whether suit-wearers got waved through.
>>>
>>>> JFTR I’ve never worn a suit on a plane,
>>>
>>> I got into the habit in the 80's because (a) I needed the suit at the
>>> other end anyway and it reduced the amount of baggage space I needed;
>>> but (b) it made it much more likely to be selected at the gate for a
>>> free upgrade to business class, if they'd overbooked economy.
>>
>> Having spent most of my working life in the techy side of a University or
>> similarly in the NHS (a) has never applied to me,
>
> YMMV, there are still plenty of occupations where suits and tie are
> expected. Did you ever see Grant Shapps giving a formal TV interview
> in a polo shirt?

Clearly my milage did vary - see above.

> It's just a uniform - would you be happy to fly on plane where the pilot
> and cabin crew turned up wearing boxer shorts and t-shirts?

That would depend entirely on the context. I’m sure there are occasions
when that would be entirely appropriate wear for a pilot.

>> and regarding (b) the only time I’ve ever been upgraded was on
>> holiday, and I definitely wouldn’t wear a suit then.
>
> YMMV; the most satisfactory free upgrade I got was probably a long haul
> flight where my companion and I were bumped up to First Class from
> Business Class on a 100% holiday flight, and while I don't recall if I
> was wearing a tie, I was almost certainly wearing a suit (and she the
> equivalent).

You were going on holiday or the entire flight was booked with holiday
makers? If the latter I’m surprised the plane had more than one class, and
if the former then you’re a different class of holidaymaker from what I am.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 13:25:35 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <td6eiv$2jgf5$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:52:47 on Fri, 12 Aug
>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <td16q0$1ubsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:09:20 on Wed, 10 Aug
>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <tcttfj$1dv70$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:11:47 on Tue, 9 Aug
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On what basis would some passengers be considered trustworthy?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully better than it was 30-odd years ago, the first time I
>>>>>>>>>> flew from Edinburgh to London on business. The guys in suits got
>>>>>>>>>> waved through, and two of us (not travelling together - he was
>>>>>>>>>> unknown to me) in sweaters and anoraks were patted down. I vowed
>>>>>>>>>> to wear a suit should I ever take up hijacking.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's a name for that: Carnival Booth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Derivation?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/992/913>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you. On first skim I’m not sure what Roland’s “that”
>>>>>> refers to, but I’ll read it properly later.
>>>>>
>>>>> And thanks to Recliner and Graeme I now conclude that Roland’s “that”
>>>>> refers to my deciding to wear a suit.
>>>>
>>>> It's more about noticing whether suit-wearers got waved through.
>>>>
>>>>> JFTR I’ve never worn a suit on a plane,
>>>>
>>>> I got into the habit in the 80's because (a) I needed the suit at the
>>>> other end anyway and it reduced the amount of baggage space I needed;
>>>> but (b) it made it much more likely to be selected at the gate for a
>>>> free upgrade to business class, if they'd overbooked economy.
>>>
>>> Having spent most of my working life in the techy side of a University or
>>> similarly in the NHS (a) has never applied to me,
>>
>> YMMV, there are still plenty of occupations where suits and tie are
>> expected. Did you ever see Grant Shapps giving a formal TV interview
>> in a polo shirt?
>
>Clearly my milage did vary - see above.
>
>> It's just a uniform - would you be happy to fly on plane where the pilot
>> and cabin crew turned up wearing boxer shorts and t-shirts?
>
>That would depend entirely on the context. I’m sure there are occasions
>when that would be entirely appropriate wear for a pilot.
>
>>> and regarding (b) the only time I’ve ever been upgraded was on
>>> holiday, and I definitely wouldn’t wear a suit then.
>>
>> YMMV; the most satisfactory free upgrade I got was probably a long haul
>> flight where my companion and I were bumped up to First Class from
>> Business Class on a 100% holiday flight, and while I don't recall if I
>> was wearing a tie, I was almost certainly wearing a suit (and she the
>> equivalent).
>
>You were going on holiday or the entire flight was booked with holiday
>makers? If the latter I’m surprised the plane had more than one class, and
>if the former then you’re a different class of holidaymaker from what I am.

Yes, that's a good point. Generally airlines only lay on First Class on business routes. Even BA doesn't generally use
planes with a First cabin on pure holiday routes.

In message <tdlekf$11u3p$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:25:35 on Thu, 18 Aug
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <td6eiv$2jgf5$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:52:47 on Fri, 12 Aug
>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <td16q0$1ubsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:09:20 on Wed, 10 Aug
>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <tcttfj$1dv70$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:11:47 on Tue, 9 Aug
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On what basis would some passengers be considered trustworthy?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully better than it was 30-odd years ago, the first time I
>>>>>>>>>> flew from Edinburgh to London on business. The guys in suits got
>>>>>>>>>> waved through, and two of us (not travelling together - he was
>>>>>>>>>> unknown to me) in sweaters and anoraks were patted down. I vowed
>>>>>>>>>> to wear a suit should I ever take up hijacking.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's a name for that: Carnival Booth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Derivation?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/992/913>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you. On first skim I’m not sure what Roland’s “that”
>>>>>> refers to, but I’ll read it properly later.
>>>>>
>>>>> And thanks to Recliner and Graeme I now conclude that Roland’s
>>>>>“that”
>>>>> refers to my deciding to wear a suit.
>>>>
>>>> It's more about noticing whether suit-wearers got waved through.
>>>>
>>>>> JFTR I’ve never worn a suit on a plane,
>>>>
>>>> I got into the habit in the 80's because (a) I needed the suit at the
>>>> other end anyway and it reduced the amount of baggage space I needed;
>>>> but (b) it made it much more likely to be selected at the gate for a
>>>> free upgrade to business class, if they'd overbooked economy.
>>>
>>> Having spent most of my working life in the techy side of a University or
>>> similarly in the NHS (a) has never applied to me,
>>
>> YMMV, there are still plenty of occupations where suits and tie are
>> expected. Did you ever see Grant Shapps giving a formal TV interview
>> in a polo shirt?
>
>Clearly my milage did vary - see above.
>
>> It's just a uniform - would you be happy to fly on plane where the pilot
>> and cabin crew turned up wearing boxer shorts and t-shirts?
>
>That would depend entirely on the context. I’m sure there are occasions
>when that would be entirely appropriate wear for a pilot.

Maybe on his private plane, on his holiday. Not when flying a BA 777 to
New York.

>>> and regarding (b) the only time I’ve ever been upgraded was on
>>> holiday, and I definitely wouldn’t wear a suit then.
>>
>> YMMV; the most satisfactory free upgrade I got was probably a long haul
>> flight where my companion and I were bumped up to First Class from
>> Business Class on a 100% holiday flight, and while I don't recall if I
>> was wearing a tie, I was almost certainly wearing a suit (and she the
>> equivalent).
>
>You were going on holiday or the entire flight was booked with holiday
>makers?

No, it was 100% my holiday (ie no business meetings), the other pax were
the usual mix of random people.

>If the latter I’m surprised the plane had more than one class,

It was a legacy transatlantic airline with the usual three classes.
Normally I flew business class when buying my own tickets. Employer
would only pay for economy :(

>and if the former then you’re a different class of holidaymaker from
>what I am.

Cost of doing, erm, business isn't it? Flights were cheaper back then
(you still just about get a return to NY, economy, for £99) and if some
of your immediate circle of friends were in the USA rather than Bristol,
that's where you had to go.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tdlekf$11u3p$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:25:35 on Thu, 18 Aug
> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <td6eiv$2jgf5$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:52:47 on Fri, 12 Aug
>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <td16q0$1ubsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:09:20 on Wed, 10 Aug
>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <tcttfj$1dv70$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:11:47 on Tue, 9 Aug
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On what basis would some passengers be considered trustworthy?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully better than it was 30-odd years ago, the first time I
>>>>>>>>>>> flew from Edinburgh to London on business. The guys in suits got
>>>>>>>>>>> waved through, and two of us (not travelling together - he was
>>>>>>>>>>> unknown to me) in sweaters and anoraks were patted down. I vowed
>>>>>>>>>>> to wear a suit should I ever take up hijacking.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's a name for that: Carnival Booth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Derivation?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/992/913>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you. On first skim I’m not sure what Roland’s “that”
>>>>>>> refers to, but I’ll read it properly later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And thanks to Recliner and Graeme I now conclude that Roland’s
>>>>>> “that”
>>>>>> refers to my deciding to wear a suit.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's more about noticing whether suit-wearers got waved through.
>>>>>
>>>>>> JFTR I’ve never worn a suit on a plane,
>>>>>
>>>>> I got into the habit in the 80's because (a) I needed the suit at the
>>>>> other end anyway and it reduced the amount of baggage space I needed;
>>>>> but (b) it made it much more likely to be selected at the gate for a
>>>>> free upgrade to business class, if they'd overbooked economy.
>>>>
>>>> Having spent most of my working life in the techy side of a University or
>>>> similarly in the NHS (a) has never applied to me,
>>>
>>> YMMV, there are still plenty of occupations where suits and tie are
>>> expected. Did you ever see Grant Shapps giving a formal TV interview
>>> in a polo shirt?
>>
>> Clearly my milage did vary - see above.
>>
>>> It's just a uniform - would you be happy to fly on plane where the pilot
>>> and cabin crew turned up wearing boxer shorts and t-shirts?
>>
>> That would depend entirely on the context. I’m sure there are occasions
>> when that would be entirely appropriate wear for a pilot.
>
> Maybe on his private plane, on his holiday. Not when flying a BA 777 to
> New York.
>
>>>> and regarding (b) the only time I’ve ever been upgraded was on
>>>> holiday, and I definitely wouldn’t wear a suit then.
>>>
>>> YMMV; the most satisfactory free upgrade I got was probably a long haul
>>> flight where my companion and I were bumped up to First Class from
>>> Business Class on a 100% holiday flight, and while I don't recall if I
>>> was wearing a tie, I was almost certainly wearing a suit (and she the
>>> equivalent).
>>
>> You were going on holiday or the entire flight was booked with holiday
>> makers?
>
> No, it was 100% my holiday (ie no business meetings), the other pax were
> the usual mix of random people.

Ah, we misunderstood you. We thought you meant it was a flight heaving to a
sun 'n sand destination, entirely filled with holiday makers.

>
>> If the latter I’m surprised the plane had more than one class,
>
> It was a legacy transatlantic airline with the usual three classes.
> Normally I flew business class when buying my own tickets. Employer
> would only pay for economy :(
>
>> and if the former then you’re a different class of holidaymaker from
>> what I am.
>
> Cost of doing, erm, business isn't it? Flights were cheaper back then
> (you still just about get a return to NY, economy, for £99) and if some
> of your immediate circle of friends were in the USA rather than Bristol,
> that's where you had to go.
>

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tdlekf$11u3p$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:25:35 on Thu, 18 Aug
> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <td6eiv$2jgf5$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:52:47 on Fri, 12 Aug
>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <td16q0$1ubsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:09:20 on Wed, 10 Aug
>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <tcttfj$1dv70$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:11:47 on Tue, 9 Aug
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On what basis would some passengers be considered trustworthy?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully better than it was 30-odd years ago, the first time I
>>>>>>>>>>> flew from Edinburgh to London on business. The guys in suits got
>>>>>>>>>>> waved through, and two of us (not travelling together - he was
>>>>>>>>>>> unknown to me) in sweaters and anoraks were patted down. I vowed
>>>>>>>>>>> to wear a suit should I ever take up hijacking.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's a name for that: Carnival Booth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Derivation?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/992/913>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you. On first skim I’m not sure what Roland’s “that”
>>>>>>> refers to, but I’ll read it properly later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And thanks to Recliner and Graeme I now conclude that Roland’s
>>>>>> “that”
>>>>>> refers to my deciding to wear a suit.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's more about noticing whether suit-wearers got waved through.
>>>>>
>>>>>> JFTR I’ve never worn a suit on a plane,
>>>>>
>>>>> I got into the habit in the 80's because (a) I needed the suit at the
>>>>> other end anyway and it reduced the amount of baggage space I needed;
>>>>> but (b) it made it much more likely to be selected at the gate for a
>>>>> free upgrade to business class, if they'd overbooked economy.
>>>>
>>>> Having spent most of my working life in the techy side of a University or
>>>> similarly in the NHS (a) has never applied to me,
>>>
>>> YMMV, there are still plenty of occupations where suits and tie are
>>> expected. Did you ever see Grant Shapps giving a formal TV interview
>>> in a polo shirt?
>>
>> Clearly my milage did vary - see above.
>>
>>> It's just a uniform - would you be happy to fly on plane where the pilot
>>> and cabin crew turned up wearing boxer shorts and t-shirts?
>>
>> That would depend entirely on the context. I’m sure there are occasions
>> when that would be entirely appropriate wear for a pilot.
>
> Maybe on his private plane, on his holiday. Not when flying a BA 777 to
> New York.
>
>>>> and regarding (b) the only time I’ve ever been upgraded was on
>>>> holiday, and I definitely wouldn’t wear a suit then.
>>>
>>> YMMV; the most satisfactory free upgrade I got was probably a long haul
>>> flight where my companion and I were bumped up to First Class from
>>> Business Class on a 100% holiday flight, and while I don't recall if I
>>> was wearing a tie, I was almost certainly wearing a suit (and she the
>>> equivalent).
>>
>> You were going on holiday or the entire flight was booked with holiday
>> makers?
>
> No, it was 100% my holiday (ie no business meetings), the other pax were
> the usual mix of random people.

Understood. Thank you.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tdlekf$11u3p$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:25:35 on Thu, 18 Aug
> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <td6eiv$2jgf5$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:52:47 on Fri, 12 Aug
>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <td16q0$1ubsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:09:20 on Wed, 10 Aug
>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <tcttfj$1dv70$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:11:47 on Tue, 9 Aug
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On what basis would some passengers be considered trustworthy?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully better than it was 30-odd years ago, the first time I
>>>>>>>>>>> flew from Edinburgh to London on business. The guys in suits got
>>>>>>>>>>> waved through, and two of us (not travelling together - he was
>>>>>>>>>>> unknown to me) in sweaters and anoraks were patted down. I vowed
>>>>>>>>>>> to wear a suit should I ever take up hijacking.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's a name for that: Carnival Booth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Derivation?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/992/913>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you. On first skim I’m not sure what Roland’s “that”
>>>>>>> refers to, but I’ll read it properly later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And thanks to Recliner and Graeme I now conclude that Roland’s
>>>>>> “that”
>>>>>> refers to my deciding to wear a suit.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's more about noticing whether suit-wearers got waved through.
>>>>>
>>>>>> JFTR I’ve never worn a suit on a plane,
>>>>>
>>>>> I got into the habit in the 80's because (a) I needed the suit at the
>>>>> other end anyway and it reduced the amount of baggage space I needed;
>>>>> but (b) it made it much more likely to be selected at the gate for a
>>>>> free upgrade to business class, if they'd overbooked economy.
>>>>
>>>> Having spent most of my working life in the techy side of a University or
>>>> similarly in the NHS (a) has never applied to me,
>>>
>>> YMMV, there are still plenty of occupations where suits and tie are
>>> expected. Did you ever see Grant Shapps giving a formal TV interview
>>> in a polo shirt?
>>
>> Clearly my milage did vary - see above.
>>
>>> It's just a uniform - would you be happy to fly on plane where the pilot
>>> and cabin crew turned up wearing boxer shorts and t-shirts?
>>
>> That would depend entirely on the context. I’m sure there are occasions
>> when that would be entirely appropriate wear for a pilot.
>
> Maybe on his private plane, on his holiday. Not when flying a BA 777 to
> New York.

Yes, it depends entirely on the context.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tdlekf$11u3p$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:25:35 on Thu, 18 Aug
>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <td6eiv$2jgf5$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:52:47 on Fri, 12 Aug
>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <td16q0$1ubsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:09:20 on Wed, 10 Aug
>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tcttfj$1dv70$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:11:47 on Tue, 9 Aug
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On what basis would some passengers be considered trustworthy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully better than it was 30-odd years ago, the first time I
>>>>>>>>>>>> flew from Edinburgh to London on business. The guys in suits got
>>>>>>>>>>>> waved through, and two of us (not travelling together - he was
>>>>>>>>>>>> unknown to me) in sweaters and anoraks were patted down. I vowed
>>>>>>>>>>>> to wear a suit should I ever take up hijacking.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There's a name for that: Carnival Booth.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Derivation?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/992/913>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you. On first skim I’m not sure what Roland’s “that”
>>>>>>>> refers to, but I’ll read it properly later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And thanks to Recliner and Graeme I now conclude that Roland’s
>>>>>>> “that”
>>>>>>> refers to my deciding to wear a suit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's more about noticing whether suit-wearers got waved through.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JFTR I’ve never worn a suit on a plane,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I got into the habit in the 80's because (a) I needed the suit at the
>>>>>> other end anyway and it reduced the amount of baggage space I needed;
>>>>>> but (b) it made it much more likely to be selected at the gate for a
>>>>>> free upgrade to business class, if they'd overbooked economy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having spent most of my working life in the techy side of a University or
>>>>> similarly in the NHS (a) has never applied to me,
>>>>
>>>> YMMV, there are still plenty of occupations where suits and tie are
>>>> expected. Did you ever see Grant Shapps giving a formal TV interview
>>>> in a polo shirt?
>>>
>>> Clearly my milage did vary - see above.
>>>
>>>> It's just a uniform - would you be happy to fly on plane where the pilot
>>>> and cabin crew turned up wearing boxer shorts and t-shirts?
>>>
>>> That would depend entirely on the context. I’m sure there are occasions
>>> when that would be entirely appropriate wear for a pilot.
>>
>> Maybe on his private plane, on his holiday. Not when flying a BA 777 to
>> New York.
>
> Yes, it depends entirely on the context.

I sometimes wonder how smartly the crews of cargo planes are expected to
dress? I assume they don't wear ties normally.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tdlekf$11u3p$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:25:35 on Thu, 18 Aug
>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <td6eiv$2jgf5$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:52:47 on Fri, 12 Aug
>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <td16q0$1ubsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:09:20 on Wed, 10 Aug
>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tcttfj$1dv70$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:11:47 on Tue, 9 Aug
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On what basis would some passengers be considered trustworthy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully better than it was 30-odd years ago, the first time I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> flew from Edinburgh to London on business. The guys in suits got
>>>>>>>>>>>>> waved through, and two of us (not travelling together - he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unknown to me) in sweaters and anoraks were patted down. I vowed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to wear a suit should I ever take up hijacking.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There's a name for that: Carnival Booth.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Derivation?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/992/913>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you. On first skim I’m not sure what Roland’s “that”
>>>>>>>>> refers to, but I’ll read it properly later.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And thanks to Recliner and Graeme I now conclude that Roland’s
>>>>>>>> “that”
>>>>>>>> refers to my deciding to wear a suit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's more about noticing whether suit-wearers got waved through.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> JFTR I’ve never worn a suit on a plane,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I got into the habit in the 80's because (a) I needed the suit at the
>>>>>>> other end anyway and it reduced the amount of baggage space I needed;
>>>>>>> but (b) it made it much more likely to be selected at the gate for a
>>>>>>> free upgrade to business class, if they'd overbooked economy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having spent most of my working life in the techy side of a University or
>>>>>> similarly in the NHS (a) has never applied to me,
>>>>>
>>>>> YMMV, there are still plenty of occupations where suits and tie are
>>>>> expected. Did you ever see Grant Shapps giving a formal TV interview
>>>>> in a polo shirt?
>>>>
>>>> Clearly my milage did vary - see above.
>>>>
>>>>> It's just a uniform - would you be happy to fly on plane where the pilot
>>>>> and cabin crew turned up wearing boxer shorts and t-shirts?
>>>>
>>>> That would depend entirely on the context. I’m sure there are occasions
>>>> when that would be entirely appropriate wear for a pilot.
>>>
>>> Maybe on his private plane, on his holiday. Not when flying a BA 777 to
>>> New York.
>>
>> Yes, it depends entirely on the context.
>
> I sometimes wonder how smartly the crews of cargo planes are expected to
> dress? I assume they don't wear ties normally.
>
>

I’ve always wondered why the staff in the various emergency service (and
highways agency etc) control rooms wear uniforms. In general, it seems the
less autonomy of decision making you have in your job the more likely it is
that you have to wear some sort of uniform.

On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 08:19:02 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <0ilqfh16pg5iq3o5149ebkd8foash8i905@4ax.com>, at 22:02:47 on
>Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 15:43:41 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <td59p0$2fqre$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:24:32 on Fri, 12 Aug
>>>2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>On 12/08/2022 11:11, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 12/08/2022 09:56, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 08:55:09 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> It's like Covid: many establishments require that you notify them if you
>>>>>>> have been experiencing Covid-like symptoms before visiting, but the ones
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A godsend for skivers everywhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Oh you've got covid?
>>>>> Where are the test results?
>>>>>
>>>>I didn't think you could get tests in England?
>>>
>>>You can buy LTF at the pharmacy. Maybe £2/£3 each.
>>>
>>Closer to 2 pounds (2-30 -ish in High Street pharmacy chains)
>
>If you need one in a hurry, perhaps you can't travel to the nearest High
>Street.
>
>>and as low as 1 pound (plus delivery) if you don't need a posh box :-
>>https://www.medisave.co.uk/covid-lateral-flow-test.html
>
>>I haven't used up all my free ones yet.
>
>Seriously, you need to check them, I've had to throw away all my free
>ones long before their expiry date because the buffer fluid capsules had
>leaked/evaporated.
>
Mine don't seem to have done but the capsules are still in the sealed
bags. I have had at least two different types.

In message <tdm9aq$15ks7$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:01:14 on Thu, 18 Aug
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>I’ve always wondered why the staff in the various emergency service (and
>highways agency etc) control rooms wear uniforms.

There's an element of a first line of defence against people wandering
in off the street and being mistaken for an employee.
--
Roland Perry

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Yes, it depends entirely on the context.
>>> I sometimes wonder how smartly the crews of cargo planes are expected to
>>> dress? I assume they don't wear ties normally. >
>> I?ve always wondered why the staff in the various emergency service (and
>> highways agency etc) control rooms wear uniforms. In general, it seems the
>> less autonomy of decision making you have in your job the more likely it is
>> that you have to wear some sort of uniform.
>
> Indeed. I noticed relatively early in my career that whenever I
> was in a room with the really important people in the companies I
> worked for, the multi-millionaires and the powerful looked like
> they'd been dragged through a bush backwards, and the
> functionaries who worked for them were the ones wearing suits.
> That's when I resolved suits were for courts, weddings and
> funerals and not much else... I certainly don't feel the need to
> honour an airline so for the privilege of taking my business -
> they're working for me, not the other way round.
>
> Apart from one slightly awkward debate on sartorial style in the
> remarkably stuffy Institute of Directors, it's a policy that's
> broadly served me well. Helped by most of Silicon Valley
> reaching the same conclusion. Of course I'm flying to the UK for
> one of the exceptions - a wedding this weekend - today, so it
> will be interesting to see if Heathrow baggage handling manages
> to lose my suit in the process ...
>
>
> [ObRail: naturally, given that as well as flying across Europe the
> plane will also be taking me back in time about 50 years, have
> had to hire a car from Heathrow because of rail strikes.
> Sigh.]
>

I’m with you on the frequency of suit wearing, though I’ve fortunately not
needed to get it out for a court appearance (yet…). On the subject of
uniform wearing I seem to be in a very small minority in detesting school
uniforms. I’ve heard all the arguments in favour of them, but absolutely no
teacher or head teacher has managed to answer my point, which is how come
most of Europe (and significant other chunks of the world) manages to do
without them? The last Head I challenged just burbled that it wouldn’t work
here.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tdm9aq$15ks7$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:01:14 on Thu, 18 Aug
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> I’ve always wondered why the staff in the various emergency service (and
>> highways agency etc) control rooms wear uniforms.
>
> There's an element of a first line of defence against people wandering
> in off the street and being mistaken for an employee.

Really? All these sort of places seem to be defended by card locks these
days. Which brings me to another modern disease - everyone (including lots
of school pupils) wearing lanyards with ID cards. It never was a thing a
few decades ago, but seems to be the accepted normal these days.

In message <tdlka5$1376v$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:02:29 on Thu, 18 Aug
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>>the most satisfactory free upgrade I got was probably a long haul
>>>> flight where my companion and I were bumped up to First Class from
>>>> Business Class on a 100% holiday flight, and while I don't recall if I
>>>> was wearing a tie, I was almost certainly wearing a suit (and she the
>>>> equivalent).
>>>
>>> You were going on holiday or the entire flight was booked with holiday
>>> makers?
>>
>> No, it was 100% my holiday (ie no business meetings), the other pax were
>> the usual mix of random people.
>
>Ah, we misunderstood you. We thought you meant it was a flight heaving to a
>sun 'n sand destination, entirely filled with holiday makers.

I think this qualifies for deliberate misinterpretation. When did you
last see a sun'n'sand flight with both Business and First Class? And a
long haul sun'n'sand flight - really??

One transatlantic flight I was on, had a very high proportion of
holidaymakers, if a choir of gospel singers traveling to the UK to
perform a tour qualifies as "holiday". I doubt very many were
professional singers.

I do wish they hadn't spent most of the trip having a choir-practice
though. Didn't help that their body clocks said they were arriving in
the UK about midnight, so no reason to even think about sleeping.

At the other end of the spectrum I once flew to France on Easyjet (from
Luton), to quite a formal EU conference, and it was clear almost
everyone else on the flight were holidaymakers. But again, I was wearing
a suit because I went straight from the airport to the venue (where I
was speaking on a panel at one of the breakout sessions) and on the way
back the following morning my destination was the office.

One of the "hacks they don't want you know about" (see interminable spam
from publishers such as Reach), that I used a lot, was to book package
tours including flights and the rooms at the conference hotel, when
colleagues were complaining that all the rooms pre-booked by the
conference organisers were full (and in any event more expensive).

Corporate travel department was blind to this possibility, claiming that
flexible tickets were the only thing allowed. Oh how I laughed one time
when I got my return seat, and the CEO was bumped to the following day.
I think the airline's strategy was "get the tourists away and out of our
hair, because they are a PITA to accommodate extra nights, but business
travelers will just shrug, get out their Amex card, and make their own
arrangements".

Not many of the conferences were at venues where all the normal guests
had been excluded (think things like G7 meetings) so it was commonplace
to rub shoulders perhaps 50:50 with tourists at the destination. Flights
would be even more mixed because few tour operators have the muscle to
pre-book more than a few dozen seats on a wide body long haul scheduled
flight.

Having said that, I was once up front with Emirates out of Birmingham,
and everyone else was clearly a tourist (and probably from the same
group). Again, keeping the noise down wasn't high on their priority
list. Wearing Bermuda shorts, however, was.

I think the only flight I've ever been on, where 100% of the pax were
pretty much guaranteed to be tourists, was a Concorde charter to New
York.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tdlka5$1376v$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:02:29 on Thu, 18 Aug
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>>> the most satisfactory free upgrade I got was probably a long haul
>>>>> flight where my companion and I were bumped up to First Class from
>>>>> Business Class on a 100% holiday flight, and while I don't recall if I
>>>>> was wearing a tie, I was almost certainly wearing a suit (and she the
>>>>> equivalent).
>>>>
>>>> You were going on holiday or the entire flight was booked with holiday
>>>> makers?
>>>
>>> No, it was 100% my holiday (ie no business meetings), the other pax were
>>> the usual mix of random people.
>>
>> Ah, we misunderstood you. We thought you meant it was a flight heaving to a
>> sun 'n sand destination, entirely filled with holiday makers.
>
> I think this qualifies for deliberate misinterpretation. When did you
> last see a sun'n'sand flight with both Business and First Class? And a
> long haul sun'n'sand flight - really??

That's why we asked.

But there are long haul destinations that are largely leisure travel: most
Caribbean islands (though Barbados is wealthy enough to fill First class
cabins), Sydney, Orlando and perhaps Las Vegas (yes, apart from a few
conference attendees). Virgin used to keep a sub-fleet dedicated to those
routes (it may still do). Similarly, some BA long haul jets have First
cabins, some don't. There are also high J and low J configurations.