In message <tdnh0c$1djva$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:18:21 on Fri, 19 Aug
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tdm9aq$15ks7$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:01:14 on Thu, 18 Aug
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> I’ve always wondered why the staff in the various emergency service (and
>>> highways agency etc) control rooms wear uniforms.
>>
>> There's an element of a first line of defence against people wandering
>> in off the street and being mistaken for an employee.
>
>Really? All these sort of places seem to be defended by card locks these
>days.

Ah, you took the bait!

Yes, but old habits die hard, and there's such a thing as
following-through after someone with keycard. It takes nerves of steel
the slam the door in a colleague-behind-you's face, even if that's what
the rule says. But without a uniform, you have a far better excuse.

> Which brings me to another modern disease - everyone (including lots
>of school pupils) wearing lanyards with ID cards. It never was a thing a
>few decades ago, but seems to be the accepted normal these days.

This is a whole other area of security theatre. I have proven beyond any
reasonable doubt that all most people check is that you have the correct
lanyard. The badge it's carrying being far too difficult to check in
real time[1]. Although some security checkpoints do have people
eyeballing the colour of the stripe across the badge, to see if protocol
is to wave them though or not.

Here I think Turquoise is "head of NGO delegation". Head of government
delegation would be a different colour.

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/g8-badge.jpg

They were a bit jumpy, I recall, because the Japanese PM made an
appearance. The one before the recently assassinated.

Anyway, lanyard carnival booth was how I got into the Home Office
wearing a civil service one with [ObRail] a Scotrail photo-ID ITSO card
in the holder. Well, I suppose it *is* government issued.

Needless to say, I was fully cleared to be there anyway (which was about
once a week on average), just probing their defences for fun. <Thread
convergence> and wearing a smart business suit did no harm either.

[1] There is some technology for that - the badge having an RFID, and a
screen flashing up the photo of the person who was registered, but I
didn't see that very often.
--
Roland Perry

On 19/08/2022 10:17, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tdnh0c$1djva$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:18:21 on Fri, 19 Aug
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tdm9aq$15ks7$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:01:14 on Thu, 18 Aug
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> I’ve always wondered why the staff in the various emergency service
>>>> (and
>>>> highways agency etc) control rooms wear uniforms.
>>>
>>> There's an element of a first line of defence against people wandering
>>> in off the street and being mistaken for an employee.
>>
>> Really? All these sort of places seem to be defended by card locks these
>> days.
>
> Ah, you took the bait!
>
> Yes, but old habits die hard, and there's such a thing as
> following-through after someone with keycard. It takes nerves of steel
> the slam the door in a colleague-behind-you's face, even if that's what
> the rule says. But without a uniform, you have a far better excuse.
>
>> Which brings me to another modern disease - everyone (including lots
>> of school pupils) wearing lanyards with ID cards. It never was a thing a
>> few decades ago, but seems to be the accepted normal these days.
>
> This is a whole other area of security theatre. I have proven beyond any
> reasonable doubt that all most people check is that you have the correct
> lanyard. The badge it's carrying being far too difficult to check in
> real time[1]. Although some security checkpoints do have people
> eyeballing the colour of the stripe across the badge, to see if protocol
> is to wave them though or not.
>
> Here I think Turquoise is "head of NGO delegation". Head of government
> delegation would be a different colour.
>
> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/g8-badge.jpg
>
> They were a bit jumpy, I recall, because the Japanese PM made an
> appearance. The one before the recently assassinated.
>
> Anyway, lanyard carnival booth was how I got into the Home Office
> wearing a civil service one with [ObRail] a Scotrail photo-ID ITSO card
> in the holder. Well, I suppose it *is* government issued.

My version of that was Diana's funeral, I was at Horse Guards working
for Sky and the production team forgot to give us our passes the night
before. On the day the engineers were booked on half an hour earlier
than everyone else to get switched on and check the lines. When I arrive
plod was not letting them through, I had a Sky Sports pass from covering
football so I wore that and plod was happy. I then vouched for the
engineers and they were let through as well.

>
> Needless to say, I was fully cleared to be there anyway (which was about
> once a week on average), just probing their defences for fun. <Thread
> convergence> and wearing a smart business suit did no harm either.
>
> [1] There is some technology for that - the badge having an RFID, and a
>     screen flashing up the photo of the person who was registered, but I
>     didn't see that very often.

HMNB Portsmouth (and presumably the others) have that.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <tdngo4$1disd$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:13:56 on Fri, 19 Aug
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>On the subject of uniform wearing I seem to be in a very small minority
>in detesting school uniforms. I’ve heard all the arguments in favour
>of them, but absolutely no teacher or head teacher has managed to
>answer my point, which is how come most of Europe (and significant
>other chunks of the world) manages to do without them? The last Head I
>challenged just burbled that it wouldn’t work here.

There's a very real peer-pressure to "keep up with the Jones's" and for
children whose parents can't afford the latest fashions to be bullied. I
don't know how they deal with that elsewhere.

Perhaps they have a more sophisticated dress *code* for non-uniform
attire? I might have seen one here which basically said "anything you
can buy in Asda/Tesco, but nothing fancier".
--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/08/2022 10:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tdnh0c$1djva$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:18:21 on Fri, 19 Aug
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tdm9aq$15ks7$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:01:14 on Thu, 18 Aug
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> I’ve always wondered why the staff in the various emergency service
>>>>> (and
>>>>> highways agency etc) control rooms wear uniforms.
>>>>
>>>> There's an element of a first line of defence against people wandering
>>>> in off the street and being mistaken for an employee.
>>>
>>> Really? All these sort of places seem to be defended by card locks these
>>> days.
>>
>> Ah, you took the bait!
>>
>> Yes, but old habits die hard, and there's such a thing as
>> following-through after someone with keycard. It takes nerves of steel
>> the slam the door in a colleague-behind-you's face, even if that's what
>> the rule says. But without a uniform, you have a far better excuse.
>>
>>> Which brings me to another modern disease - everyone (including lots
>>> of school pupils) wearing lanyards with ID cards. It never was a thing a
>>> few decades ago, but seems to be the accepted normal these days.
>>
>> This is a whole other area of security theatre. I have proven beyond any
>> reasonable doubt that all most people check is that you have the correct
>> lanyard. The badge it's carrying being far too difficult to check in
>> real time[1]. Although some security checkpoints do have people
>> eyeballing the colour of the stripe across the badge, to see if protocol
>> is to wave them though or not.
>>
>> Here I think Turquoise is "head of NGO delegation". Head of government
>> delegation would be a different colour.
>>
>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/g8-badge.jpg
>>
>> They were a bit jumpy, I recall, because the Japanese PM made an
>> appearance. The one before the recently assassinated.
>>
>> Anyway, lanyard carnival booth was how I got into the Home Office
>> wearing a civil service one with [ObRail] a Scotrail photo-ID ITSO card
>> in the holder. Well, I suppose it *is* government issued.
>
> My version of that was Diana's funeral, I was at Horse Guards working
> for Sky and the production team forgot to give us our passes the night
> before. On the day the engineers were booked on half an hour earlier
> than everyone else to get switched on and check the lines. When I arrive
> plod was not letting them through, I had a Sky Sports pass from covering
> football so I wore that and plod was happy. I then vouched for the
> engineers and they were let through as well.
>
>>
>> Needless to say, I was fully cleared to be there anyway (which was about
>> once a week on average), just probing their defences for fun. <Thread
>> convergence> and wearing a smart business suit did no harm either.
>>
>> [1] There is some technology for that - the badge having an RFID, and a
>>     screen flashing up the photo of the person who was registered, but I
>>     didn't see that very often.
>
> HMNB Portsmouth (and presumably the others) have that.
>

So do most cruise ships. You swipe or touch your cabin key card when
disembarking and embarking, and the crew member on duty instantly sees the
mug shot they took when you first checked in. The system also records your
departure and arrival, and so always knows which passengers are on board,
and which ashore or on a Zodiac.

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720301179239>

Am 19.08.2022 um 11:00 schrieb Recliner:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tdlka5$1376v$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:02:29 on Thu, 18 Aug
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>> the most satisfactory free upgrade I got was probably a long haul
>>>>>> flight where my companion and I were bumped up to First Class from
>>>>>> Business Class on a 100% holiday flight, and while I don't recall if I
>>>>>> was wearing a tie, I was almost certainly wearing a suit (and she the
>>>>>> equivalent).
>>>>>
>>>>> You were going on holiday or the entire flight was booked with holiday
>>>>> makers?
>>>>
>>>> No, it was 100% my holiday (ie no business meetings), the other pax were
>>>> the usual mix of random people.
>>>
>>> Ah, we misunderstood you. We thought you meant it was a flight heaving to a
>>> sun 'n sand destination, entirely filled with holiday makers.
>>
>> I think this qualifies for deliberate misinterpretation. When did you
>> last see a sun'n'sand flight with both Business and First Class? And a
>> long haul sun'n'sand flight - really??
>
> That's why we asked.
>
> But there are long haul destinations that are largely leisure travel: most
> Caribbean islands (though Barbados is wealthy enough to fill First class
> cabins), Sydney, Orlando and perhaps Las Vegas (yes, apart from a few
> conference attendees). Virgin used to keep a sub-fleet dedicated to those
> routes (it may still do). Similarly, some BA long haul jets have First
> cabins, some don't. There are also high J and low J configurations.

In my 'German' mind, the Maledives are missing, and the Dominican
Republic certainly is an all-inclusive "sun'n sand" mass destiantion.

Rolf

Am 19.08.2022 um 11:33 schrieb Roland Perry:
> In message <tdngo4$1disd$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:13:56 on Fri, 19 Aug
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> On the subject of uniform wearing I seem to be in a very small
>> minority in detesting school uniforms. I’ve heard all the arguments in
>> favour of them, but absolutely no teacher or head teacher has managed
>> to answer my point, which is how come most of Europe (and significant
>> other chunks of the world) manages to do without them? The last Head I
>> challenged just burbled that it wouldn’t work here.
>
> There's a very real peer-pressure to "keep up with the Jones's" and for
> children whose parents can't afford the latest fashions to be bullied. I
> don't know how they deal with that elsewhere.
>
> Perhaps they have a more sophisticated dress *code* for non-uniform
> attire?

Nope, it was more like 'get out a good attire almost like for Church'.
In the country you wanted to look like 'not a farmer'.

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 12:53:32 +0200, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:

>Am 19.08.2022 um 11:00 schrieb Recliner:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tdlka5$1376v$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:02:29 on Thu, 18 Aug
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> the most satisfactory free upgrade I got was probably a long haul
>>>>>>> flight where my companion and I were bumped up to First Class from
>>>>>>> Business Class on a 100% holiday flight, and while I don't recall if I
>>>>>>> was wearing a tie, I was almost certainly wearing a suit (and she the
>>>>>>> equivalent).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You were going on holiday or the entire flight was booked with holiday
>>>>>> makers?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it was 100% my holiday (ie no business meetings), the other pax were
>>>>> the usual mix of random people.
>>>>
>>>> Ah, we misunderstood you. We thought you meant it was a flight heaving to a
>>>> sun 'n sand destination, entirely filled with holiday makers.
>>>
>>> I think this qualifies for deliberate misinterpretation. When did you
>>> last see a sun'n'sand flight with both Business and First Class? And a
>>> long haul sun'n'sand flight - really??
>>
>> That's why we asked.
>>
>> But there are long haul destinations that are largely leisure travel: most
>> Caribbean islands (though Barbados is wealthy enough to fill First class
>> cabins), Sydney, Orlando and perhaps Las Vegas (yes, apart from a few
>> conference attendees). Virgin used to keep a sub-fleet dedicated to those
>> routes (it may still do). Similarly, some BA long haul jets have First
>> cabins, some don't. There are also high J and low J configurations.
>
>In my 'German' mind, the Maledives are missing, and the Dominican
>Republic certainly is an all-inclusive "sun'n sand" mass destiantion.

Yes, I wasn't trying to come up with an exhaustive list. I'm sure there are a number of African and Indian Ocean island
(eg, Seychelles) destinations that come into this category.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tdngo4$1disd$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:13:56 on Fri, 19 Aug
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> On the subject of uniform wearing I seem to be in a very small minority
>> in detesting school uniforms. I’ve heard all the arguments in favour
>> of them, but absolutely no teacher or head teacher has managed to
>> answer my point, which is how come most of Europe (and significant
>> other chunks of the world) manages to do without them? The last Head I
>> challenged just burbled that it wouldn’t work here.
>
> There's a very real peer-pressure to "keep up with the Jones's" and for
> children whose parents can't afford the latest fashions to be bullied. I
> don't know how they deal with that elsewhere.
>
> Perhaps they have a more sophisticated dress *code* for non-uniform
> attire? I might have seen one here which basically said "anything you
> can buy in Asda/Tesco, but nothing fancier".

That’s the trouble. These tropes are trotted out without any thought as to
how it is solved/not a real problem elsewhere.

On 13/08/2022 22:58, Recliner wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <td16q0$1ubsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:09:20 on Wed, 10 Aug
>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <tcttfj$1dv70$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:11:47 on Tue, 9 Aug
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On what basis would some passengers be considered trustworthy?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully better than it was 30-odd years ago, the first time I
>>>>>>>>>>> flew from Edinburgh to London on business. The guys in suits got
>>>>>>>>>>> waved through, and two of us (not travelling together - he was
>>>>>>>>>>> unknown to me) in sweaters and anoraks were patted down. I vowed
>>>>>>>>>>> to wear a suit should I ever take up hijacking.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's a name for that: Carnival Booth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Derivation?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/992/913>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you. On first skim I’m not sure what Roland’s “that”
>>>>>>> refers to, but I’ll read it properly later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And thanks to Recliner and Graeme I now conclude that Roland’s “that”
>>>>>> refers to my deciding to wear a suit.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's more about noticing whether suit-wearers got waved through.
>>>>>
>>>>>> JFTR I’ve never worn a suit on a plane,
>>>>>
>>>>> I got into the habit in the 80's because (a) I needed the suit at the
>>>>> other end anyway and it reduced the amount of baggage space I needed;
>>>>> but (b) it made it much more likely to be selected at the gate for a
>>>>> free upgrade to business class, if they'd overbooked economy.
>>>>
>>>> Having spent most of my working life in the techy side of a University or
>>>> similarly in the NHS (a) has never applied to me, and regarding (b) the
>>>> only time I’ve ever been upgraded was on holiday, and I definitely wouldn’t
>>>> wear a suit then.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Upgrades on British airlines were always rare; they're more common on US
>>> airlines.
>>
>> Mine was on BA. It was on a flight we were bumped to, and delayed by a
>> day, because an incoming Iberia flight was late and they couldn’t get us
>> home the same day. I’m sure I’ve told the tale here before.
>>
>
> I suppose they felt they owed you a favour!
>
> I had an amusing experience a little over 30 years ago. My boss and I were
> flying to the US, both in Club World. But as we boarded, they invited me to
> turn left, to the almost empty First class cabin (my first crossing in that
> class). But they didn't upgrade my boss, who duly took his seat in Club. He
> was on the wagon at the time, and was content to stay there and work.
>
> I soon discovered the real difference between Club and First: in Club, they
> top your glass up on demand, or offer a top-up if they notice it's empty on
> their rounds. But, in First, they keep an eye on you, and top you up
> whenever your glass is half empty. I think I drank champagne all the way
> across the Atlantic, and arrived barely able to stand up (luckily, I'd
> filled in my US forms early in the flight). I've been much more sensible on
> subsequent long-haul flights in First!

Club class is quite nice, and I really have no complaints about World
Traveller Plus.

World Traveller has become horrible, however, with its iron board seats.

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 10:17:04 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>[1] There is some technology for that - the badge having an RFID, and a
> screen flashing up the photo of the person who was registered, but I
> didn't see that very often.

I attend an event most years which has that. And I once got refused access,
despite having a fairly high-level pass, because the system failed to
recognise my badge, and I ended up having to go to the accreditation office
and wait in a fairly lengthy queue to get it replaced by someone who
apologised profusely and said "we've had a lot of those this year".

Mark

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 10:17:04 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>> [1] There is some technology for that - the badge having an RFID, and a
>> screen flashing up the photo of the person who was registered, but I
>> didn't see that very often.
>
> I attend an event most years which has that. And I once got refused access,
> despite having a fairly high-level pass, because the system failed to
> recognise my badge, and I ended up having to go to the accreditation office
> and wait in a fairly lengthy queue to get it replaced by someone who
> apologised profusely and said "we've had a lot of those this year".
>
> Mark
>

My initial moan about badges and lanyards wasn’t for their use in
events/conferences etc - that’s a valid use. It’s the idea that everyone,
including school children, have to go about their working day with these
things dangling round their necks. As Roland has pointed out, you can
largely get around an institution with a fake one.

In message <tdnqf3$1esmm$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:59:47 on Fri, 19 Aug
2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>Am 19.08.2022 um 11:33 schrieb Roland Perry:
>> In message <tdngo4$1disd$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:13:56 on Fri, 19 Aug
>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> On the subject of uniform wearing I seem to be in a very small
>>>minority in detesting school uniforms. I’ve heard all the arguments
>>>in favour of them, but absolutely no teacher or head teacher has
>>>managed to answer my point, which is how come most of Europe (and
>>>significant other chunks of the world) manages to do without them?
>>>The last Head I challenged just burbled that it wouldn’t work here.

>> There's a very real peer-pressure to "keep up with the Jones's" and
>>for children whose parents can't afford the latest fashions to be
>>bullied. I don't know how they deal with that elsewhere.

>> Perhaps they have a more sophisticated dress *code* for non-uniform
>>attire?
>
>Nope, it was more like 'get out a good attire almost like for Church'.
>In the country you wanted to look like 'not a farmer'.

Sounds more expensive than the typical Tesco/Asda UK school uniform.

And on the subject of expense, I raised this issue with someone I know
who has recently moved from one professional setting to another, where
the former required a uniform that no doubt would be scoffed at here.

Their reaction was "at least that uniform was supplied free, I now have
to spend a fortune on smart-casual replacements".
--
Roland Perry

In message <tdnsd5$1fala$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:32:54 on Fri, 19 Aug
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tdngo4$1disd$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:13:56 on Fri, 19 Aug
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> On the subject of uniform wearing I seem to be in a very small minority
>>> in detesting school uniforms. I’ve heard all the arguments in favour
>>> of them, but absolutely no teacher or head teacher has managed to
>>> answer my point, which is how come most of Europe (and significant
>>> other chunks of the world) manages to do without them? The last Head I
>>> challenged just burbled that it wouldn’t work here.
>>
>> There's a very real peer-pressure to "keep up with the Jones's" and for
>> children whose parents can't afford the latest fashions to be bullied. I
>> don't know how they deal with that elsewhere.
>>
>> Perhaps they have a more sophisticated dress *code* for non-uniform
>> attire? I might have seen one here which basically said "anything you
>> can buy in Asda/Tesco, but nothing fancier".
>
>That’s the trouble. These tropes are trotted out without any thought as to
>how it is solved/not a real problem elsewhere.

They know it's a problem elsewhere, or there wouldn't be "solutions" in
the wild.

One of the solutions in a uniform-compulsory school is to have a pool of
donated/recycled uniforms to hand out to the most disadvantaged
families. I'm not sure how that would work if half the school is turning
up in Armani/£100 very latest Manchester United shirts.

Then as a quite separate issue you have the "hemline competition"
amongst the girls.
--
Roland Perry

In message <d4vvfht4nsf8tduo6abdhv806do9h8kd93@4ax.com>, at 22:16:54 on
Fri, 19 Aug 2022, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 10:17:04 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>[1] There is some technology for that - the badge having an RFID, and a
>> screen flashing up the photo of the person who was registered, but I
>> didn't see that very often.
>
>I attend an event most years which has that. And I once got refused access,
>despite having a fairly high-level pass, because the system failed to
>recognise my badge, and I ended up having to go to the accreditation office
>and wait in a fairly lengthy queue to get it replaced by someone who
>apologised profusely and said

If you know in advance you need accreditation desks, always good to be
there a day early.

>"we've had a lot of those this year".

I had someone saying something very similar the other day. Problem is,
they don't appear to escalate it anyone who might find out exactly
what's wrong. In your case for example, is there file missing which
happens to have your details (along with others) in it.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tdpv1s$1qkui$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:30:20 on Sat, 20 Aug
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 10:17:04 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> [1] There is some technology for that - the badge having an RFID, and a
>>> screen flashing up the photo of the person who was registered, but I
>>> didn't see that very often.
>>
>> I attend an event most years which has that. And I once got refused access,
>> despite having a fairly high-level pass, because the system failed to
>> recognise my badge, and I ended up having to go to the accreditation office
>> and wait in a fairly lengthy queue to get it replaced by someone who
>> apologised profusely and said "we've had a lot of those this year".
>
>My initial moan about badges and lanyards wasn’t for their use in
>events/conferences etc - that’s a valid use. It’s the idea that everyone,
>including school children, have to go about their working day with these
>things dangling round their necks.

Perhaps a consequence of deskilling the workforce. When I was at school
I'd be surprised if almost all teachers didn't know on sight the names
of all the pupils, but they just don't bother with that any more.

In the opposite direction it was a requirement that all pupils knew
every member of staff by sight, and we were tested on it from time to
time.

>As Roland has pointed out, you can largely get around an institution
>with a fake one.

I think you can occasionally get through the door with one, but you
won't be lucky all day every day.

Most lanyard/badge combos can be disassembled, and the badge clipped to
something like a top pocket. Problem is, not so many people have one of
those any more.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tdnsd5$1fala$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:32:54 on Fri, 19 Aug
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tdngo4$1disd$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:13:56 on Fri, 19 Aug
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> On the subject of uniform wearing I seem to be in a very small minority
>>>> in detesting school uniforms. I’ve heard all the arguments in favour
>>>> of them, but absolutely no teacher or head teacher has managed to
>>>> answer my point, which is how come most of Europe (and significant
>>>> other chunks of the world) manages to do without them? The last Head I
>>>> challenged just burbled that it wouldn’t work here.
>>>
>>> There's a very real peer-pressure to "keep up with the Jones's" and for
>>> children whose parents can't afford the latest fashions to be bullied. I
>>> don't know how they deal with that elsewhere.
>>>
>>> Perhaps they have a more sophisticated dress *code* for non-uniform
>>> attire? I might have seen one here which basically said "anything you
>>> can buy in Asda/Tesco, but nothing fancier".
>>
>> That’s the trouble. These tropes are trotted out without any thought as to
>> how it is solved/not a real problem elsewhere.
>
> They know it's a problem elsewhere, or there wouldn't be "solutions" in
> the wild.
>
> One of the solutions in a uniform-compulsory school is to have a pool of
> donated/recycled uniforms to hand out to the most disadvantaged
> families. I'm not sure how that would work if half the school is turning
> up in Armani/£100 very latest Manchester United shirts.
>
> Then as a quite separate issue you have the "hemline competition"
> amongst the girls.

It just appears to be a non issue in mainland Europe. Colleagues from there
who visit the UK express total surprise that we feel the need to do it.
Last time I was in Graz my tram passed a school at finishing time, so I
took note of what the children (approx 13-15 years old) were wearing. Not a
designer Armani or football shirt to be seen. Just fairly normal clothes.
Remember our children go round in civilian clothes at the weekend and
school holidays. It’s only for the attendance at school does it suddenly
become an issue.

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:57:53 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 13/08/2022 22:58, Recliner wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <td16q0$1ubsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:09:20 on Wed, 10 Aug
>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tcttfj$1dv70$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:11:47 on Tue, 9 Aug
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On what basis would some passengers be considered trustworthy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully better than it was 30-odd years ago, the first time I
>>>>>>>>>>>> flew from Edinburgh to London on business. The guys in suits got
>>>>>>>>>>>> waved through, and two of us (not travelling together - he was
>>>>>>>>>>>> unknown to me) in sweaters and anoraks were patted down. I vowed
>>>>>>>>>>>> to wear a suit should I ever take up hijacking.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There's a name for that: Carnival Booth.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Derivation?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/992/913>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you. On first skim I’m not sure what Roland’s “that”
>>>>>>>> refers to, but I’ll read it properly later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And thanks to Recliner and Graeme I now conclude that Roland’s “that”
>>>>>>> refers to my deciding to wear a suit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's more about noticing whether suit-wearers got waved through.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JFTR I’ve never worn a suit on a plane,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I got into the habit in the 80's because (a) I needed the suit at the
>>>>>> other end anyway and it reduced the amount of baggage space I needed;
>>>>>> but (b) it made it much more likely to be selected at the gate for a
>>>>>> free upgrade to business class, if they'd overbooked economy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having spent most of my working life in the techy side of a University or
>>>>> similarly in the NHS (a) has never applied to me, and regarding (b) the
>>>>> only time I’ve ever been upgraded was on holiday, and I definitely wouldn’t
>>>>> wear a suit then.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Upgrades on British airlines were always rare; they're more common on US
>>>> airlines.
>>>
>>> Mine was on BA. It was on a flight we were bumped to, and delayed by a
>>> day, because an incoming Iberia flight was late and they couldn’t get us
>>> home the same day. I’m sure I’ve told the tale here before.
>>>
>>
>> I suppose they felt they owed you a favour!
>>
>> I had an amusing experience a little over 30 years ago. My boss and I were
>> flying to the US, both in Club World. But as we boarded, they invited me to
>> turn left, to the almost empty First class cabin (my first crossing in that
>> class). But they didn't upgrade my boss, who duly took his seat in Club. He
>> was on the wagon at the time, and was content to stay there and work.
>>
>> I soon discovered the real difference between Club and First: in Club, they
>> top your glass up on demand, or offer a top-up if they notice it's empty on
>> their rounds. But, in First, they keep an eye on you, and top you up
>> whenever your glass is half empty. I think I drank champagne all the way
>> across the Atlantic, and arrived barely able to stand up (luckily, I'd
>> filled in my US forms early in the flight). I've been much more sensible on
>> subsequent long-haul flights in First!
>
>Club class is quite nice, and I really have no complaints about World
>Traveller Plus.

The once revolutionary ying-yang Club World seats have been overtaken by most other airlines, and BA really needs to
speed up the switch to the new generation Club World seats. They're being fitted in new planes as they're delivered, but
need to be retrofitted to the older fleet.

>
>World Traveller has become horrible, however, with its iron board seats.

Never tried it.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Yes, it depends entirely on the context.
>>>> I sometimes wonder how smartly the crews of cargo planes are expected to
>>>> dress? I assume they don't wear ties normally. >
>>> I?ve always wondered why the staff in the various emergency service (and
>>> highways agency etc) control rooms wear uniforms. In general, it seems the
>>> less autonomy of decision making you have in your job the more likely it is
>>> that you have to wear some sort of uniform.
>>
>> Indeed. I noticed relatively early in my career that whenever I
>> was in a room with the really important people in the companies I
>> worked for, the multi-millionaires and the powerful looked like
>> they'd been dragged through a bush backwards, and the
>> functionaries who worked for them were the ones wearing suits.
>> That's when I resolved suits were for courts, weddings and
>> funerals and not much else... I certainly don't feel the need to
>> honour an airline so for the privilege of taking my business -
>> they're working for me, not the other way round.
>>
>> Apart from one slightly awkward debate on sartorial style in the
>> remarkably stuffy Institute of Directors, it's a policy that's
>> broadly served me well. Helped by most of Silicon Valley
>> reaching the same conclusion. Of course I'm flying to the UK for
>> one of the exceptions - a wedding this weekend - today, so it
>> will be interesting to see if Heathrow baggage handling manages
>> to lose my suit in the process ...
>>
>>
>> [ObRail: naturally, given that as well as flying across Europe the
>> plane will also be taking me back in time about 50 years, have
>> had to hire a car from Heathrow because of rail strikes.
>> Sigh.]
>>
>
> I’m with you on the frequency of suit wearing, though I’ve fortunately not
> needed to get it out for a court appearance (yet…). On the subject of
> uniform wearing I seem to be in a very small minority in detesting school
> uniforms. I’ve heard all the arguments in favour of them, but absolutely no
> teacher or head teacher has managed to answer my point, which is how come
> most of Europe (and significant other chunks of the world) manages to do
> without them? The last Head I challenged just burbled that it wouldn’t work
> here.

I don’t know the answer to the European question <insert Brexit-themed
comment here> but two teachers in my family, who worked in more or less
deprived areas, insisted that school uniform was essential. On non-uniform
days a significant number of the poorer kids just wouldn’t turn up. In one
of their schools, in a depressed area of Liverpool, there was always small
change lying around on the floor because it wasn’t cool to carry small
change.

In a less prosperous area near here family members with children have
encountered a similar phenomenon where relatively un-well off parents
insist on having all their baby paraphernalia brand new, and replaced every
few months, while the more middle class parents are happy with second hand
stuff which they exchange freely.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tdlekf$11u3p$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:25:35 on Thu, 18 Aug
>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <td6eiv$2jgf5$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:52:47 on Fri, 12 Aug
>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <td16q0$1ubsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:09:20 on Wed, 10 Aug
>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tcttfj$1dv70$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:11:47 on Tue, 9 Aug
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On what basis would some passengers be considered trustworthy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully better than it was 30-odd years ago, the first time I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> flew from Edinburgh to London on business. The guys in suits got
>>>>>>>>>>>>> waved through, and two of us (not travelling together - he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unknown to me) in sweaters and anoraks were patted down. I vowed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to wear a suit should I ever take up hijacking.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There's a name for that: Carnival Booth.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Derivation?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/992/913>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you. On first skim I’m not sure what Roland’s “that”
>>>>>>>>> refers to, but I’ll read it properly later.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And thanks to Recliner and Graeme I now conclude that Roland’s
>>>>>>>> “that”
>>>>>>>> refers to my deciding to wear a suit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's more about noticing whether suit-wearers got waved through.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> JFTR I’ve never worn a suit on a plane,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I got into the habit in the 80's because (a) I needed the suit at the
>>>>>>> other end anyway and it reduced the amount of baggage space I needed;
>>>>>>> but (b) it made it much more likely to be selected at the gate for a
>>>>>>> free upgrade to business class, if they'd overbooked economy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having spent most of my working life in the techy side of a University or
>>>>>> similarly in the NHS (a) has never applied to me,
>>>>>
>>>>> YMMV, there are still plenty of occupations where suits and tie are
>>>>> expected. Did you ever see Grant Shapps giving a formal TV interview
>>>>> in a polo shirt?
>>>>
>>>> Clearly my milage did vary - see above.
>>>>
>>>>> It's just a uniform - would you be happy to fly on plane where the pilot
>>>>> and cabin crew turned up wearing boxer shorts and t-shirts?
>>>>
>>>> That would depend entirely on the context. I’m sure there are occasions
>>>> when that would be entirely appropriate wear for a pilot.
>>>
>>> Maybe on his private plane, on his holiday. Not when flying a BA 777 to
>>> New York.
>>
>> Yes, it depends entirely on the context.
>
> I sometimes wonder how smartly the crews of cargo planes are expected to
> dress? I assume they don't wear ties normally.

Unless they’re with Eddie Stobart Airlines! To be honest I was thinking of
smaller planes in tropical or less populated area - island-hopping Twotters
and seaplanes, and missionary aviation and such like. I don’t think I’d be
reassured by the pilot of an Otter with floats dropping me and my canoe
into the Yukon somewhere turning up wearing a tie and a uniform with 4
stripes.

Sam

--
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Spit the dummy to reply

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 10:17:04 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> [1] There is some technology for that - the badge having an RFID, and a
>>> screen flashing up the photo of the person who was registered, but I
>>> didn't see that very often.
>>
>> I attend an event most years which has that. And I once got refused access,
>> despite having a fairly high-level pass, because the system failed to
>> recognise my badge, and I ended up having to go to the accreditation office
>> and wait in a fairly lengthy queue to get it replaced by someone who
>> apologised profusely and said "we've had a lot of those this year".
>>
>> Mark
>>
>
> My initial moan about badges and lanyards wasn’t for their use in
> events/conferences etc - that’s a valid use. It’s the idea that everyone,
> including school children, have to go about their working day with these
> things dangling round their necks. As Roland has pointed out, you can
> largely get around an institution with a fake one.

At my last places of work the cards were mainly to get you through doors
(and initially we had plain white ones because that way if they were lost
no one could target you by checking your photo). Having it on a lanyard
(or a ski-pass string-thing) just made it handier, especially if you were
carrying things.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 20/08/2022 17:06, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 10:17:04 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [1] There is some technology for that - the badge having an RFID, and a
>>>> screen flashing up the photo of the person who was registered, but I
>>>> didn't see that very often.
>>>
>>> I attend an event most years which has that. And I once got refused access,
>>> despite having a fairly high-level pass, because the system failed to
>>> recognise my badge, and I ended up having to go to the accreditation office
>>> and wait in a fairly lengthy queue to get it replaced by someone who
>>> apologised profusely and said "we've had a lot of those this year".
>>
>> My initial moan about badges and lanyards wasn’t for their use in
>> events/conferences etc - that’s a valid use. It’s the idea that everyone,
>> including school children, have to go about their working day with these
>> things dangling round their necks. As Roland has pointed out, you can
>> largely get around an institution with a fake one.
>
> At my last places of work the cards were mainly to get you through doors
> (and initially we had plain white ones because that way if they were lost
> no one could target you by checking your photo). Having it on a lanyard
> (or a ski-pass string-thing) just made it handier, especially if you were
> carrying things.

Our cards were red. A colleague once got in by brandishing a KitKat.

On 20/08/2022 17:16, Certes wrote:
> On 20/08/2022 17:06, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 10:17:04 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] There is some technology for that - the badge having an RFID,
>>>>> and a
>>>>> screen flashing up the photo of the person who was registered, but I
>>>>> didn't see that very often.
>>>>
>>>> I attend an event most years which has that. And I once got refused
>>>> access,
>>>> despite having a fairly high-level pass, because the system failed to
>>>> recognise my badge, and I ended up having to go to the accreditation
>>>> office
>>>> and wait in a fairly lengthy queue to get it replaced by someone who
>>>> apologised profusely and said "we've had a lot of those this year".
>>>
>>> My initial moan about badges and lanyards wasn’t for their use in
>>> events/conferences etc - that’s a valid use. It’s the idea that
>>> everyone,
>>> including school children, have to go about their working day with these
>>> things dangling round their necks. As Roland has pointed out, you can
>>> largely get around an institution with a fake one.
>>
>> At my last places of work the cards were mainly to get you through doors
>> (and initially we had plain white ones because that way if they were lost
>> no one could target you by checking your photo).  Having it on a lanyard
>> (or a ski-pass string-thing) just made it handier, especially if you were
>> carrying things.
>
> Our cards were red.  A colleague once got in by brandishing a KitKat.
>

You mean he sweet-talked his way in?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <tdr0gg$204c9$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:20 on Sat, 20 Aug
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Yes, it depends entirely on the context.
>>>>> I sometimes wonder how smartly the crews of cargo planes are expected to
>>>>> dress? I assume they don't wear ties normally. >
>>>> I?ve always wondered why the staff in the various emergency service (and
>>>> highways agency etc) control rooms wear uniforms. In general, it seems the
>>>> less autonomy of decision making you have in your job the more likely it is
>>>> that you have to wear some sort of uniform.
>>>
>>> Indeed. I noticed relatively early in my career that whenever I
>>> was in a room with the really important people in the companies I
>>> worked for, the multi-millionaires and the powerful looked like
>>> they'd been dragged through a bush backwards, and the
>>> functionaries who worked for them were the ones wearing suits.
>>> That's when I resolved suits were for courts, weddings and
>>> funerals and not much else... I certainly don't feel the need to
>>> honour an airline so for the privilege of taking my business -
>>> they're working for me, not the other way round.
>>>
>>> Apart from one slightly awkward debate on sartorial style in the
>>> remarkably stuffy Institute of Directors, it's a policy that's
>>> broadly served me well. Helped by most of Silicon Valley
>>> reaching the same conclusion. Of course I'm flying to the UK for
>>> one of the exceptions - a wedding this weekend - today, so it
>>> will be interesting to see if Heathrow baggage handling manages
>>> to lose my suit in the process ...
>>>
>>>
>>> [ObRail: naturally, given that as well as flying across Europe the
>>> plane will also be taking me back in time about 50 years, have
>>> had to hire a car from Heathrow because of rail strikes.
>>> Sigh.]
>>>
>>
>> I’m with you on the frequency of suit wearing, though I’ve
>>fortunately not
>> needed to get it out for a court appearance (yet…). On the subject of
>> uniform wearing I seem to be in a very small minority in detesting school
>> uniforms. I’ve heard all the arguments in favour of them, but absolutely no
>> teacher or head teacher has managed to answer my point, which is how come
>> most of Europe (and significant other chunks of the world) manages to do
>> without them? The last Head I challenged just burbled that it wouldn’t work
>> here.
>
>I don’t know the answer to the European question <insert Brexit-themed
>comment here> but two teachers in my family, who worked in more or less
>deprived areas, insisted that school uniform was essential. On non-uniform
>days a significant number of the poorer kids just wouldn’t turn up. In one
>of their schools, in a depressed area of Liverpool, there was always small
>change lying around on the floor because it wasn’t cool to carry small
>change.
>
>In a less prosperous area near here family members with children have
>encountered a similar phenomenon where relatively un-well off parents
>insist on having all their baby paraphernalia brand new, and replaced every
>few months, while the more middle class parents are happy with second hand
>stuff which they exchange freely.

That's a similar issue to people who claim they can't afford to feed
their children insisting on having the latest iPhone. It's a kind of
tribalism, and isn't their individual fault.

You can pretty much guarantee anyone driving an Audi, or wearing a
Rolex, is suffering the same (but at a higher income level).
--
Roland Perry

In message <tdqbrl$1rvt4$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:08:53 on Sat, 20 Aug
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tdnsd5$1fala$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:32:54 on Fri, 19 Aug
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tdngo4$1disd$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:13:56 on Fri, 19 Aug
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> On the subject of uniform wearing I seem to be in a very small minority
>>>>> in detesting school uniforms. I’ve heard all the arguments in favour
>>>>> of them, but absolutely no teacher or head teacher has managed to
>>>>> answer my point, which is how come most of Europe (and significant
>>>>> other chunks of the world) manages to do without them? The last Head I
>>>>> challenged just burbled that it wouldn’t work here.
>>>>
>>>> There's a very real peer-pressure to "keep up with the Jones's" and for
>>>> children whose parents can't afford the latest fashions to be bullied. I
>>>> don't know how they deal with that elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps they have a more sophisticated dress *code* for non-uniform
>>>> attire? I might have seen one here which basically said "anything you
>>>> can buy in Asda/Tesco, but nothing fancier".
>>>
>>> That’s the trouble. These tropes are trotted out without any thought as to
>>> how it is solved/not a real problem elsewhere.
>>
>> They know it's a problem elsewhere, or there wouldn't be "solutions" in
>> the wild.
>>
>> One of the solutions in a uniform-compulsory school is to have a pool of
>> donated/recycled uniforms to hand out to the most disadvantaged
>> families. I'm not sure how that would work if half the school is turning
>> up in Armani/£100 very latest Manchester United shirts.
>>
>> Then as a quite separate issue you have the "hemline competition"
>> amongst the girls.
>
>It just appears to be a non issue in mainland Europe. Colleagues from there
>who visit the UK express total surprise that we feel the need to do it.
>Last time I was in Graz my tram passed a school at finishing time, so I
>took note of what the children (approx 13-15 years old) were wearing. Not a
>designer Armani or football shirt to be seen. Just fairly normal clothes.
>Remember our children go round in civilian clothes at the weekend and
>school holidays. It’s only for the attendance at school does it suddenly
>become an issue.

Many children compete to have "not-normal" clothes at the weekend and in
school holidays too. But at those times it's their parents' problem.

During school hours it's the teachers' problem, and one they'd really
rather not have on top of all the other ones.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tdqbrl$1rvt4$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:08:53 on Sat, 20 Aug
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tdnsd5$1fala$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:32:54 on Fri, 19 Aug
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tdngo4$1disd$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:13:56 on Fri, 19 Aug
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On the subject of uniform wearing I seem to be in a very small minority
>>>>>> in detesting school uniforms. I’ve heard all the arguments in favour
>>>>>> of them, but absolutely no teacher or head teacher has managed to
>>>>>> answer my point, which is how come most of Europe (and significant
>>>>>> other chunks of the world) manages to do without them? The last Head I
>>>>>> challenged just burbled that it wouldn’t work here.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a very real peer-pressure to "keep up with the Jones's" and for
>>>>> children whose parents can't afford the latest fashions to be bullied. I
>>>>> don't know how they deal with that elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps they have a more sophisticated dress *code* for non-uniform
>>>>> attire? I might have seen one here which basically said "anything you
>>>>> can buy in Asda/Tesco, but nothing fancier".
>>>>
>>>> That’s the trouble. These tropes are trotted out without any thought as to
>>>> how it is solved/not a real problem elsewhere.
>>>
>>> They know it's a problem elsewhere, or there wouldn't be "solutions" in
>>> the wild.
>>>
>>> One of the solutions in a uniform-compulsory school is to have a pool of
>>> donated/recycled uniforms to hand out to the most disadvantaged
>>> families. I'm not sure how that would work if half the school is turning
>>> up in Armani/£100 very latest Manchester United shirts.
>>>
>>> Then as a quite separate issue you have the "hemline competition"
>>> amongst the girls.
>>
>> It just appears to be a non issue in mainland Europe. Colleagues from there
>> who visit the UK express total surprise that we feel the need to do it.
>> Last time I was in Graz my tram passed a school at finishing time, so I
>> took note of what the children (approx 13-15 years old) were wearing. Not a
>> designer Armani or football shirt to be seen. Just fairly normal clothes.
>> Remember our children go round in civilian clothes at the weekend and
>> school holidays. It’s only for the attendance at school does it suddenly
>> become an issue.
>
> Many children compete to have "not-normal" clothes at the weekend and in
> school holidays too. But at those times it's their parents' problem.
>
> During school hours it's the teachers' problem, and one they'd really
> rather not have on top of all the other ones.

I’m still awaiting an explanation as to how most of the rest of Europe
survives without school uniform. UK and Ireland are very much the
exceptions here. As I’ve said, I know all the well rehearsed arguments for
school uniforms, which you are starting to trot out. However all of the
alleged problems that school uniforms are supposed to solve just don’t seem
to be an issue elsewhere.