On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:00:09 +0100, Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:

>On 29 Sep 2021 11:02:51 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Here they keep referring to the number of drivers required over there:
>>100,000. Where does that come from?
>
>There's a shortage of drivers all over Europe. But the flexibility of
>the single market, plus cabotage, means that the EU isn't suffering
>from it
>
>Really good article here:
>https://trans.info/en/there-s-a-europe-wide-hgv-driver-shortage-so-why-do-uk-supply-chains-seem-more-disrupted-254524

I watched a YouTube vid by a trucker explaining the shortage last
night.

Poor pay, appalling facilities for overnighting, unsociable hours
(days, weeks).

It wasn't until the end that I noticed the video was two years old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hSake-OUXU
--
Salad Dodger
1690 FLHTK;GL1800D
Previously ...
CB1300SA8;GL1800A6;GL1500SEV;CBR1100XXX;
CBR1000FL;CBX1000Z;GPz750R;Z750E1;Z650C2;
KH500A8;KH250B3;TS250c;TS185c.

On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:08:30 +0100, Salad Dodger
<salad.dodger@idnet.com> wrote:

>I watched a YouTube vid by a trucker explaining the shortage last
>night.
>
>Poor pay, appalling facilities for overnighting, unsociable hours
>(days, weeks).
>
>It wasn't until the end that I noticed the video was two years old.
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hSake-OUXU

The House of Commons Transport Select Committee knew about the driver
shortage issues in 2016
https://twitter.com/InspGadgetBlogs/status/1442470547414142979

And pay isn't the primary issue. I know I'm an Ian Dunt fanboy, but
this article says the real killer is the appalling conditions in the
UK, certainly compared to mainland Europe
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hgv-driver-shortage-uk-government-fix-lorry-crisis-caused-brexit-1191706
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 30/09/2021 09:10, Champ wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:08:30 +0100, Salad Dodger
> <salad.dodger@idnet.com> wrote:
>
>> I watched a YouTube vid by a trucker explaining the shortage last
>> night.
>>
>> Poor pay, appalling facilities for overnighting, unsociable hours
>> (days, weeks).
>>
>> It wasn't until the end that I noticed the video was two years old.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hSake-OUXU
>
> The House of Commons Transport Select Committee knew about the driver
> shortage issues in 2016
> https://twitter.com/InspGadgetBlogs/status/1442470547414142979
>
> And pay isn't the primary issue. I know I'm an Ian Dunt fanboy, but
> this article says the real killer is the appalling conditions in the
> UK, certainly compared to mainland Europe
> https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hgv-driver-shortage-uk-government-fix-lorry-crisis-caused-brexit-1191706
>
When I took up driving for a living in 2007, after an illustrious (sic)
academic career, there were reputedly 80k drivers needed. By the time I
retired in 2018, it was down to 50k (allegedly). Yes, I agree, pay isn't
the main issue. It is general treatment by warehouse staff and
management that you are the lowest of the low, poor waiting and rest
conditions (and toilets - if there is one), and the joy that the press
seem to have in always blaming the lorry driver in road accidents. Eg
"12% of road accidents involve an HGV", whilst failing to point out that
99% involve a car!

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

WUN <nigel.eaton@gmail.com> wrote in news:dd2d8358-37ba-4f84-a229-
08f8a39569b2n@googlegroups.com:

> Can I just offer this thought, as the owner of an EV?
>
> BWAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAAHAAAAAAAAAA...
>
> <draws breath>
>
> BWAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...
>
> Ahem.
>
> Now, tell me again about this "range anxiety" thing?
>

Just back from a trip on my motorcycle[1], feeding it Tesco 99 or E10
where only one grade available. 1018 miles since Fri 24 Sept. I
refuelled on 6 of the 7 days. No problem. I did see a few stations
closed which were mainly BP who have the biggest driver shortage as they
outsource the logisitics. Mostly looked to refuel once the countdown had
reached 40 miles left[2]

Seems diesel is a different matter. Matrix signs on the M6/M5 between
Stafford and Strensham all said the services on that stretch were out of
diesel. Many stations I passed had diesel pumps out of action

The only forecourt with a queue was the last one, my local Sainsbury's.
That was only for diesel. They must have more than one tank as diesel
was only available on one section. I was waved directly to a free
unleaded pump.

In summary, your EV and your smug grin can be placed up your anus.

[1] the S1000XR

[2] only 9 miles left when I reached Sainsbury's but that is less than a
mile from home.

wessie <willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:
>
> Just back from a trip on my motorcycle[1], feeding it Tesco 99 or E10
> where only one grade available. 1018 miles since Fri 24 Sept. I
> refuelled on 6 of the 7 days. No problem. I did see a few stations
> closed which were mainly BP who have the biggest driver shortage as they
> outsource the logisitics. Mostly looked to refuel once the countdown had
> reached 40 miles left[2]
>
> Seems diesel is a different matter. Matrix signs on the M6/M5 between
> Stafford and Strensham all said the services on that stretch were out of
> diesel. Many stations I passed had diesel pumps out of action

Plenty of both and no queueues at Morrissons Worle, WSM

--
http://www.netunix.com/

wessie wrote:

> I did see a few stations
> closed which were mainly BP who have the biggest driver shortage as they
> outsource the logisitics.

I think it was a BP press release (or was it a leak) that I first heard last
thurs/fri, seemed to be saying it was Hoyer's fault not BP's.

Anyway, I didn't go out and queue as I had 3/4 tank and a jerry can (I think
pretty much full, not checked) in the garage, several work journeys later, I was
down to 120 miles left, and was hoping to do two separate 100+ journeys at weekend.

On way out yesterday morning, passed several much reduced queues, but decided to
wait until return journey, that paid off as I managed to pull into a forecourt
and there was only one car in front of me, not been out today, but I get the
feeling it's probably 'over' as long as people don't go mad ...

On 30/09/2021 09:10, Champ wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:08:30 +0100, Salad Dodger
> <salad.dodger@idnet.com> wrote:
>
>> I watched a YouTube vid by a trucker explaining the shortage last
>> night.
>>
>> Poor pay, appalling facilities for overnighting, unsociable hours
>> (days, weeks).
>>
>> It wasn't until the end that I noticed the video was two years old.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hSake-OUXU
>
> The House of Commons Transport Select Committee knew about the driver
> shortage issues in 2016
> https://twitter.com/InspGadgetBlogs/status/1442470547414142979
>
> And pay isn't the primary issue. I know I'm an Ian Dunt fanboy, but

He has written some good pieces that the "i" have published.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
https://the-ytc1-shed.blogspot.com/ Deprected(http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/)
There *is* an alternative! https://www.libreoffice.org/

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 4:48:42 AM UTC-5, Champ wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 20:32:29 -0700 (PDT), Ben Blaney
> <benb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I have the HGV, of course, and I also have the ADR. So - and it's not often I get to say this - I could potentially be the saviour of Great Britain.
> All hail the returning hero!

What a time to be alive, with my "special set of skills".

> >But I've got tickets for Stacey Kent at Birdland on Thursday, so can I save Britain next week sometime?
> Oh, ok then
>
> PS - have fond memories of going to see Stacey Kent with you decades
> ago, at some open air venue somewhere

Yes, and my windscreen wipers packed up at 120mph on the A13 in substantial rain in complete darkness.

I'll ask Stace if she remembers you.

On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:24:10 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>but I get the
>feeling it's probably 'over' as long as people don't go mad ...

Once everyone has a full tank, and especially with usage down [1], the
problem was always going to resolve itself.

[1] read that traffic on Monday was 6% down compared to average Monday
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

wessie wrote:

> Seems diesel is a different matter. Matrix signs on the M6/M5 between
> Stafford and Strensham all said the services on that stretch were out
> of diesel. Many stations I passed had diesel pumps out of action

The problem maybe the commercial vehicles (vans, small trucks as well
as HGVs) have greater need through travelling higher mileages, they
also have larger tanks so the initial panic buying depleted diesel
stocks more quickly and then repeatedly becaus ethey can't afford to be
off the road.

I'm guessing the diesel storage tanks are similiar in size to the
petrol ones but there are 2 types of petrol to one type of diesel.

....maybe.

--
Simon

"sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in news:iro1c5Flp56U1
@mid.individual.net:

> wessie wrote:
>
>> Seems diesel is a different matter. Matrix signs on the M6/M5 between
>> Stafford and Strensham all said the services on that stretch were out
>> of diesel. Many stations I passed had diesel pumps out of action
>
> The problem maybe the commercial vehicles (vans, small trucks as well
> as HGVs) have greater need through travelling higher mileages, they
> also have larger tanks so the initial panic buying depleted diesel
> stocks more quickly and then repeatedly becaus ethey can't afford to be
> off the road.

plus, from my observations in my travels, supermarkets are getting
restocked more often as they already have the logisitics, and employ their
own drivers, so cope better with increased demand

few supermarket forecourts have access for HGV

>
> I'm guessing the diesel storage tanks are similiar in size to the
> petrol ones but there are 2 types of petrol to one type of diesel.
>
> ...maybe.
>

actually, there is a posh diesel as well e.g.
https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels/diesel

On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 10:19:41 AM UTC+1, wessie wrote:
> "sweller" <swe...@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in news:iro1c5Flp56U1
> @mid.individual.net:
> > wessie wrote:
> >
> >> Seems diesel is a different matter. Matrix signs on the M6/M5 between
> >> Stafford and Strensham all said the services on that stretch were out
> >> of diesel. Many stations I passed had diesel pumps out of action
> >
> > The problem maybe the commercial vehicles (vans, small trucks as well
> > as HGVs) have greater need through travelling higher mileages, they
> > also have larger tanks so the initial panic buying depleted diesel
> > stocks more quickly and then repeatedly becaus ethey can't afford to be
> > off the road.
> plus, from my observations in my travels, supermarkets are getting
> restocked more often as they already have the logisitics, and employ their
> own drivers, so cope better with increased demand
>
> few supermarket forecourts have access for HGV
> >
> > I'm guessing the diesel storage tanks are similiar in size to the
> > petrol ones but there are 2 types of petrol to one type of diesel.
> >
> > ...maybe.
> >
> actually, there is a posh diesel as well e.g.
> https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels/diesel

I think most of them have a premium diesel, e.g. Shell V-Power, BP Ultimate.

On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 10:19:41 UTC+1, wessie wrote:
> plus, from my observations in my travels, supermarkets are getting
> restocked more often as they already have the logisitics, and employ their
> own drivers, so cope better with increased demand

Where's SteveH, maybe he might have some insight[1]?

[1] Not take away their passports or send them all home.

On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 9:19:16 AM UTC+1, Champ wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:24:10 +0100, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
> >but I get the
> >feeling it's probably 'over' as long as people don't go mad ...
> Once everyone has a full tank, and especially with usage down [1], the
> problem was always going to resolve itself.

It's certainly not resolving itself around here. Local roads blocked by queueing traffic at
all the local petrol stations. Diesel is (apparently) in very short supply.

Mrs WUN went to Stevenage earlier, and the knuckle draggers were queueing back onto
the hard-shoulder of the A1M...

--
WUN

On 01/10/2021 17:43, WUN wrote:
> On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 9:19:16 AM UTC+1, Champ wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:24:10 +0100, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
>> wrote:
>>> but I get the
>>> feeling it's probably 'over' as long as people don't go mad ...
>> Once everyone has a full tank, and especially with usage down [1], the
>> problem was always going to resolve itself.
>
> It's certainly not resolving itself around here. Local roads blocked by queueing traffic at
> all the local petrol stations. Diesel is (apparently) in very short supply.

All calmed down here. We must be rural :-)

>
> Mrs WUN went to Stevenage earlier, and the knuckle draggers were queueing back onto
> the hard-shoulder of the A1M...
>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
https://the-ytc1-shed.blogspot.com/ Deprected(http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/)
There *is* an alternative! https://www.libreoffice.org/

WUN wrote:

> Champ wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> I get the feeling it's probably 'over'
>>
>> Once everyone has a full tank, and especially with usage down [1], the
>> problem was always going to resolve itself.
>
> It's certainly not resolving itself around here. Local roads blocked by queueing traffic at
> all the local petrol stations. Diesel is (apparently) in very short supply.

Same as the other day some sites shut due to no fuel today, but M1 J21 services,
zero queue, not all pumps were available, and I think one flavour of diesel was
off, choice of E5/E10 unleaded.

On 9/30/2021 1:10 AM, Champ wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:08:30 +0100, Salad Dodger
> <salad.dodger@idnet.com> wrote:
>
>> I watched a YouTube vid by a trucker explaining the shortage last
>> night.
>>
>> Poor pay, appalling facilities for overnighting, unsociable hours
>> (days, weeks).
>>
>> It wasn't until the end that I noticed the video was two years old.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hSake-OUXU
>
> The House of Commons Transport Select Committee knew about the driver
> shortage issues in 2016
> https://twitter.com/InspGadgetBlogs/status/1442470547414142979
>
> And pay isn't the primary issue. I know I'm an Ian Dunt fanboy, but
> this article says the real killer is the appalling conditions in the
> UK, certainly compared to mainland Europe
> https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hgv-driver-shortage-uk-government-fix-lorry-crisis-caused-brexit-1191706
>

Over here, the cost of living in the last 30 years has about doubled,
whereas average income has gone up ~15%. Lots of people think raising
wages also raises costs, but obviously costs go up no matter what. What
really has gone up is the wealth disparity.
One really wonders if people will ever wake up.

And I wonder if you will ever be able to undo Brexit.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:09:45 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:

>And I wonder if you will ever be able to undo Brexit.

Depends what you mean by undo

I think the UK formlly rejoining the EU is likely to be a generation
or more away.

However, I'm more hopefully that, in order to relieve the very obvious
economic impact, the country will move towards becoming a member of
the EEA (like Norway), and therefore effectively rejoining the Single
Market and Customs Union. Of course, a lot of people would lose a lot
of face if this happens, so it'll have to be dressed up in a lot of
obsfusctaing language, but it still seems the most likely medium term
(by which I mean ~10 years) outcome to me. But, then, I am an
incurable optimist
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:09:45 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:

>Over here, the cost of living in the last 30 years has about doubled,

Really?

<googles stats>

Wow, so it has. I had no idea. Prompted me to look at the UK and
Europe by comparison, which has frankly blown my mind.

From 1990 (for your 30 years) US inflation overall has been 110%, UK
133%, Switzerland, where I live and always thought of as an expensive
place to live, just 30%.

Euro figures on the site I'm looking https://www.in2013dollars.com at
only start from 1996, so the relative rates for that period are -

$ 75% £ 92% Eu 50% Chf 10%

I've been here since 2000, since when the cost of living has
apparently increased by just 7%. (UK 60%, UK 70%).

I always knew we were relatively well off here (everyone in general, I
mean, not me in particular) but had no idea just how much things had
changed elsewhere.

I really am stunned by this, I feel sorry for all you poor sods.

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On Saturday, 2 October 2021 at 18:23:08 UTC+1, Champ wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:09:45 -0700, Turby <xs...@xmail.com> wrote:
>
> >And I wonder if you will ever be able to undo Brexit.
> Depends what you mean by undo
>
> I think the UK formlly rejoining the EU is likely to be a generation
> or more away.

I'd agree with this; if it ever happens. I suspect in 20-30 years time that
Scotland will probably be independent and Ireland quite possibly
reunited.
> However, I'm more hopefully that, in order to relieve the very obvious
> economic impact, the country will move towards becoming a member of
> the EEA (like Norway), and therefore effectively rejoining the Single
> Market and Customs Union. Of course, a lot of people would lose a lot
> of face if this happens, so it'll have to be dressed up in a lot of
> obsfusctaing language, but it still seems the most likely medium term
> (by which I mean ~10 years) outcome to me. But, then, I am an
> incurable optimist

Not sure about EEA membership as such, I suspect the existing members
might not be so keen on the UK's joining due to the relative size of the UK
economy potentially causing the UK to try to control the EEA.

But I do think it's likely SM membership will happen, potentially CU
as you say in ten or so years. I think there's a very uncomfortable
period starting which is necessary for some people to wake the fuck
up.

Alternatively we start to look a bit more like Belarus; and I'm not altogether
joking.

On 10/2/2021 11:21 AM, Ace wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:09:45 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Over here, the cost of living in the last 30 years has about doubled,
>
> Really?
>
> <googles stats>
>
> Wow, so it has. I had no idea. Prompted me to look at the UK and
> Europe by comparison, which has frankly blown my mind.
>
> From 1990 (for your 30 years) US inflation overall has been 110%, UK
> 133%, Switzerland, where I live and always thought of as an expensive
> place to live, just 30%.
>
> Euro figures on the site I'm looking https://www.in2013dollars.com at
> only start from 1996, so the relative rates for that period are -
>
> $ 75% £ 92% Eu 50% Chf 10%
>
> I've been here since 2000, since when the cost of living has
> apparently increased by just 7%. (UK 60%, UK 70%).
>
> I always knew we were relatively well off here (everyone in general, I
> mean, not me in particular) but had no idea just how much things had
> changed elsewhere.
>
> I really am stunned by this, I feel sorry for all you poor sods.
>
I bought my 2nd house (this one) in 1996 for $230k. It's a 2300sqft
house on a 8800sqft parcel, in a residential suburb ~5 miles from the
beach. It is now valued at more than $1 million.
My first house is a mile away, closer to the beach. I paid $160k in '91.
It's now worth $800k.

People joining the middle class now can't afford to buy a home. BTW,
back then, families were supported by the husband's income. Now it takes
two or more.

But it's not the same everywhere. You could buy a mansion in Texas for
what I paid.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On Saturday, 2 October 2021 at 20:34:40 UTC+1, Turby wrote:

> I bought my 2nd house (this one) in 1996 for $230k. It's a 2300sqft
> house on a 8800sqft parcel, in a residential suburb ~5 miles from the
> beach. It is now valued at more than $1 million.
> My first house is a mile away, closer to the beach. I paid $160k in '91.
> It's now worth $800k.

I bought my first house in 1988 (two bedroom victorian semi-detached house
on a major road in Bath) for £65.5k[1].

I sold it in 1999 for £75k.

It was next sold in Oct 2016 for £295k (from the outside no significant renovation
was done and there hasn't been evidence of much work over the years, I pass it
now and again).

Current estimate is about £360k.

It was a stretch when we bought it (and I was lucky to have inherited a significant sum).
I think my partner and I had a joint income of about 15k when we bought, so roughly
four years (pre-tax) income[2]- but we were both modestly paid at the time, average salary
was around 12k so two incomes give around three years of pre-tax income to pay for it.

But now? Average salary around 30k, assume two of those and it's around six years
pre-tax income. The cost of buying a specific house has probably doubled in terms of
required pre-tax income and more than doubled when you include the fact that tax-relief
has been removed.

The 'system' is broken and I can understand the anger towards the boomers[3].

[1] A friend bought something similar in 1983. He paid around 40k.
[2] And we got tax relief on mortgage payments...
[3] I *just* qualify as one.

On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 11:25:24 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
<stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, 2 October 2021 at 18:23:08 UTC+1, Champ wrote:
>> On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:09:45 -0700, Turby <xs...@xmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >And I wonder if you will ever be able to undo Brexit.
>> Depends what you mean by undo
>>
>> I think the UK formlly rejoining the EU is likely to be a generation
>> or more away.

>I'd agree with this; if it ever happens. I suspect in 20-30 years time that
>Scotland will probably be independent and Ireland quite possibly
>reunited.

I agree about Scotland and Ireland, but think it more likely to be
within 10 years
>> However, I'm more hopefully that, in order to relieve the very obvious
>> economic impact, the country will move towards becoming a member of
>> the EEA (like Norway), and therefore effectively rejoining the Single
>> Market and Customs Union. Of course, a lot of people would lose a lot
>> of face if this happens, so it'll have to be dressed up in a lot of
>> obsfusctaing language, but it still seems the most likely medium term
>> (by which I mean ~10 years) outcome to me. But, then, I am an
>> incurable optimist
>
>Not sure about EEA membership as such, I suspect the existing members
>might not be so keen on the UK's joining due to the relative size of the UK
>economy potentially causing the UK to try to control the EEA.

Yeah, it probably wouldn't be formal membership of the EEA - more like
a series of bilateral agreements like Switzerland has

>But I do think it's likely SM membership will happen, potentially CU
>as you say in ten or so years. I think there's a very uncomfortable
>period starting which is necessary for some people to wake the fuck
>up.

Or die off

>Alternatively we start to look a bit more like Belarus; and I'm not altogether
>joking.
Yep
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Sunday, 3 October 2021 at 13:06:00 UTC+1, Champ wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 11:25:24 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
> <stephen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, 2 October 2021 at 18:23:08 UTC+1, Champ wrote:
> >> On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:09:45 -0700, Turby <xs...@xmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >And I wonder if you will ever be able to undo Brexit.
> >> Depends what you mean by undo
> >>
> >> I think the UK formlly rejoining the EU is likely to be a generation
> >> or more away.
>
> >I'd agree with this; if it ever happens. I suspect in 20-30 years time that
> >Scotland will probably be independent and Ireland quite possibly
> >reunited.
> I agree about Scotland and Ireland, but think it more likely to be
> within 10 years

I wasn't clear; I meant 20-30 years is the time for 'rUK' to maybe rejoin the EU.

I suspect that Scotland's gone from the UK *if* nothing changes drastically in the
next 3 or 4 years. I can't see a referendum in *this* parliament so maybe after
the next election: 2023-2025? Then it's going to be a protracted process to let the
referendum happen, I'm not even sure the result is a given (or that they'd let it be by
a simple majority). Even if voted for, I doubt the actual leaving happens much
before 2030, if nothing else brexit has taught that making changes to long established
arrangements needs careful study and execution.

Ireland probably needs our generation to die off in the North. Then again looking
across the water and the shortages of food and fuel in 'Great' Britain will certainly
sharpen the Republic's appeal.

Stephen Packer <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote in
news:95f7d84e-6aca-45aa-bbcd-cc604002dc65n@googlegroups.com:

> The 'system' is broken and I can understand the anger towards the
> boomers[3].
>

my 2 bed, end of terrace house with integral garage and garden has gone up
50% since I bought it in March 2014 according to Zoopla.

I took out a 10 year mortgage to live here rather than buy a flat with en
bloc garage without a mortgage. After the last 18 months, that has turned
out to be a very wise decision as I would have gone stir crazy in a flat.
The garden has been a bit of a sanctuary and somewhere I was able to
socialise a bit with neighbours when unable to go anywhere else.

if I was buying now, I would be getting a 50% larger mortgage just to buy
the flat and may have continued to rent.

My next door neighbours bought in 2012. They have just agreed a sale and
are fucking off back to Poland with the proceeds. One less bus driver, one
less owner of a domestic cleaning business and one less child to help
counteract the demographic time bomb due to a reducing birth rate in the
UK. Good luck to them as they are going to be set up nicely with a nest egg
after nearly 20 years in the UK.