I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not used it much recently.

There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line, (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington. Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train? And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do they just charge an excess?

And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free, then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one only use the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.

--
Clive Page

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
> used it much recently.
>
> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or 3)

Not just separate gate lines, but separate stations. Including Hatton
Cross, Heathrow has seven stations. Incidentally, HEx can be cheap if you
book ahead.

> but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the
> same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.

Yes, HEx has its own platforms and barriers at Paddington.

> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train? And what
> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do
> they just charge an excess?

Why would they? Contactless/Oyster are valid on HEx.

>
> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free.

And now, Hatton Cross as well.

> So what's to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier?

You can get a free paper ticket from a machine.
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/50569840292/in/album-72157716758978336/>

> Or can one only use the free inter-terminal service if armed with a
> contactless card which gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.

It doesn't get charged at all.

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:04:30 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>> used it much recently.
>>
>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or
>3)
>
>Not just separate gate lines, but separate stations. Including Hatton
>Cross, Heathrow has seven stations. Incidentally, HEx can be cheap if you
>book ahead.

Cheaper than the liz line?

>> but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the
>> same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>
>Yes, HEx has its own platforms and barriers at Paddington.

I can't imagine anyone would bother with HEx now on a turn up and go basis.
It must be haemorraging money.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:04:30 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>> used it much recently.
>>>
>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or
>> 3)
>>
>> Not just separate gate lines, but separate stations. Including Hatton
>> Cross, Heathrow has seven stations. Incidentally, HEx can be cheap if you
>> book ahead.
>
> Cheaper than the liz line?

HEx: £5.50 advance purchase, £25 PaYG

Liz: £11.50

>
>>> but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these use the
>>> same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>
>> Yes, HEx has its own platforms and barriers at Paddington.
>
> I can't imagine anyone would bother with HEx now on a turn up and go basis.
> It must be haemorraging money.

It still seems to be carrying lots of pax, but who knows what they paid?

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:04:30 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>
>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or
>>> 3)
>>>
>>> Not just separate gate lines, but separate stations. Including Hatton
>>> Cross, Heathrow has seven stations. Incidentally, HEx can be cheap if you
>>> book ahead.
>>
>> Cheaper than the liz line?
>
> HEx: £5.50 advance purchase, £25 PaYG
>
> Liz: £11.50

And the Tube is £5.50 any time PaYG. So HEx advance purchase to PAD matches
the Tube fare (to anywhere in Z1).

In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>used it much recently.
>
>There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central
>London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>Line, (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They
>seem to have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish
>(1) from (2 or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from
>(3) as these use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different
>at Paddington.

Different platforms at Paddington.

>Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train? And what
>if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do
>they just charge an excess?

Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
you get a unresolved-journey fee.

>And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free.

Yes, and there's a machine which issues a ticket to anyone.

>So what's to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
>inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line
>free, then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there
>changing to Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier?

Nothing at all (apart from maybe very occasional on-train checks).

Of course, you have to exit the system *somewhere*, so pick either an
unbarriered station, or pre-buy a ticket from the penultimate station to
your destination. They appear to be willing to take this risk of revenue
loss.

>Or can one only use the free inter-terminal service if armed with a
>contactless card which gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit
>baffling.

Many passengers changing terminals have no intention of staying in
London, understanding the complicated fares system, have one card for
every family member, etc etc. So it needs to be as frictionless as
possible.
--
Roland Perry

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
> used it much recently.
>
> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2
> or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these
> use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>

Yes, HEx have dedicated platform and dedicated gateline at Paddington which
charges the correct fare. If any other trains use those platforms,
passengers have to be directed across the the appropriate, non-HEx gateline
nearby. I'm not sure what happens in the unlikely event of HEx using other
platforms, particularly if they're not suitable for guiding passengers
to/from the expensive ticket barriers - perhaps people get a cheap ride in
that situation.

> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>

I believe there is usually a ticket-checker on board, though I don't know
whether there's *always* one.

> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card
> - do they just charge an excess?
>

Touching in and out will charge you the correct fare without any
intervention. Any ticket checks on board will be in addition to that, and
won't affect the fare charged.

> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's
> to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one only use
> the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which
> gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.
>

AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <ts5bb5$11jvq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:55:17 on Fri, 10 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:04:30 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>>>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1)
>>>>>from (2 or
>>>> 3)
>>>>
>>>> Not just separate gate lines, but separate stations. Including Hatton
>>>> Cross, Heathrow has seven stations. Incidentally, HEx can be cheap if you
>>>> book ahead.
>>>
>>> Cheaper than the liz line?
>>
>> HEx: £5.50 advance purchase, £25 PaYG
>>
>> Liz: £11.50
>
>And the Tube is £5.50 any time PaYG.

How do they separate Liz and tube passengers at Paddington if there's
allegedly a barrierless transfer from Hex to Bakerloo?

>So HEx advance purchase to PAD matches the Tube fare (to anywhere in
>Z1).

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>> used it much recently.
>>
>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central
>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>> Line, (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They
>> seem to have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish
>> (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from
>> (3) as these use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different
>> at Paddington.
>
> Different platforms at Paddington.
>
>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train? And what
>> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do
>> they just charge an excess?
>
> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>

Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund the difference
at touch-out? Unfortunately I haven't used mine recently enough to be able
to check online.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> Wrote in message:r
> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10 Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:>I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not >used it much recently.>>There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central >London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth >Line, (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They >seem to have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish >(1) from (2 or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from >(3) as these use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different >at Paddington.Different platforms at Paddington.>Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train? And what >if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do >they just charge an excess?Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out, you get a unresolved-journey fee.>And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free.Yes, and there's a machine which issues a ticket to anyone.>So what's to stop someone at Heathrow say
ing they want to use the free >inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line >free, then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there >changing to Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier?Nothing at all (apart from maybe very occasional on-train checks).Of course, you have to exit the system *somewhere*, so pick either an unbarriered station, or pre-buy a ticket from the penultimate station to your destination. They appear to be willing to take this risk of revenue loss.

Yes, my last trip to Heathrow was like that. I travel free
anyway, but started the journey at T23 with a free ticket as and
left the system at a Tube station with open barriers.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> Wrote in message:r
> In message <ts5bb5$11jvq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:55:17 on Fri, 10 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:>>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:04:30 -0000 (UTC)>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not>>>>> used it much recently.>>>>>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London>>>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,>>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to>>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) >>>>>from (2 or>>>> 3)>>>>>>>> Not just separate gate lines, but separate stations. Including Hatton>>>> Cross, Heathrow has seven stations. Incidentally, HEx can be cheap if you>>>> book ahead.>>>>>> Cheaper than the liz line?>>>> HEx: £5.50 advance purchase, £25 PaYG>>>> Liz: £11.50>>And the Tube is £5.50 any time PaYG.How do they separate Liz and tube passengers at Paddington if there's allegedly a barrierless transfer from Hex to Bakerloo?

No, that's between the Liz and Bakerloo.

--

In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>> used it much recently.
>>>
>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central
>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>>> Line, (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They
>>> seem to have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish
>>> (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from
>>> (3) as these use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different
>>> at Paddington.
>>
>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>
>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train? And what
>>> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do
>>> they just charge an excess?
>>
>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>
>Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund the difference
>at touch-out?

AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
have that much credit.

>Unfortunately I haven't used mine recently enough to be able
>to check online.

Nor I, but I have an idea it does have some concept of how much it's
prepared to wager you won't go into negative balance.
--
Roland Perry

In message <8WrFL.364$Cvae.264@fx12.ams1>, at 13:47:48 on Fri, 10 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> Wrote in message:r
>> In message <ts5bb5$11jvq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:55:17 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:>Recliner
>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>
>>wrote:>>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:04:30 -0000 (UTC)>>> Recliner
>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu>
>>wrote:>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at
>>Heathrow, having not>>>>> used it much recently.>>>>>>>>>> There are
>>essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London>>>>>
>>and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>>Line,>>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express.
>>They seem to>>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to
>>distinguish (1) >>>>>from (2 or>>>> 3)>>>>>>>> Not just separate gate
>>lines, but separate stations. Including Hatton>>>> Cross, Heathrow has
>>seven stations. Incidentally, HEx can be cheap if you>>>> book
>>ahead.>>>>>> Cheaper than the liz line?>>>> HEx: £5.50 advance
>>purchase, £25 PaYG>>>> Liz: £11.50>>And the Tube is £5.50 any time
>>PaYG.How do they separate Liz and tube passengers at Paddington if
>>there's allegedly a barrierless transfer from Hex to Bakerloo?
>
>No, that's between the Liz and Bakerloo.

Sorry, that was finger trouble. Let's try again:

>>Liz: £11.50 And the Tube is £5.50 any time PaYG.

How do they separate Liz and tube passengers at Paddington if there's
allegedly a barrierless transfer from **Liz** to Bakerloo?
--
Roland Perry

In message <ts5h9d$128sb$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:45 on Fri, 10 Feb
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>> used it much recently.
>>
>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2
>> or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from (3) as these
>> use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different at Paddington.
>>
>
>Yes, HEx have dedicated platform and dedicated gateline at Paddington which
>charges the correct fare. If any other trains use those platforms,
>passengers have to be directed across the the appropriate, non-HEx gateline
>nearby. I'm not sure what happens in the unlikely event of HEx using other
>platforms, particularly if they're not suitable for guiding passengers
>to/from the expensive ticket barriers - perhaps people get a cheap ride in
>that situation.
>
>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train?
>
>I believe there is usually a ticket-checker on board, though I don't know
>whether there's *always* one.
>
>> And what if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card
>> - do they just charge an excess?
>
>Touching in and out will charge you the correct fare without any
>intervention. Any ticket checks on board will be in addition to that, and
>won't affect the fare charged.
>
>> And I gather that trains between Heathrow terminals are free. So what's
>> to stop someone at Heathrow saying they want to use the free
>> inter-terminal service and so getting through the manual gate-line free,
>> then taking an Elizabeth line train to Farringdon and there changing to
>> Thameslink without passing through a ticket barrier? Or can one only use
>> the free inter-terminal service if armed with a contactless card which
>> gets charged and later refunded? It's all a bit baffling.
>
>AFAIK you still have to touch in for the free travel, but if you don't have
>a suitable card I believe you can ask for a token (or whatever) of some
>kind which allows you to touch in/out but only for the free part.

You get a paper ticket from a vending machine. I have one here somewhere
from my last visit, as a souvenir. (I didn't use it for travel).

Later...

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/LHR-Transfer.jpg

Doesn't say it's not valid to Gatwick/Luton/Reading/Shenfield!!
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <8WrFL.364$Cvae.264@fx12.ams1>, at 13:47:48 on Fri, 10 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> Wrote in message:r
>>> In message <ts5bb5$11jvq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:55:17 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:>Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>
>>> wrote:>>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:04:30 -0000 (UTC)>>> Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu>
>>> wrote:>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at
>>> Heathrow, having not>>>>> used it much recently.>>>>>>>>>> There are
>>> essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London>>>>>
>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>>> Line,>>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express.
>>> They seem to>>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to
>>> distinguish (1) >>>>>from (2 or>>>> 3)>>>>>>>> Not just separate gate
>>> lines, but separate stations. Including Hatton>>>> Cross, Heathrow has
>>> seven stations. Incidentally, HEx can be cheap if you>>>> book
>>> ahead.>>>>>> Cheaper than the liz line?>>>> HEx: £5.50 advance
>>> purchase, £25 PaYG>>>> Liz: £11.50>>And the Tube is £5.50 any time
>>> PaYG.How do they separate Liz and tube passengers at Paddington if
>>> there's allegedly a barrierless transfer from Hex to Bakerloo?
>>
>> No, that's between the Liz and Bakerloo.
>
> Sorry, that was finger trouble. Let's try again:
>
>>> Liz: £11.50 And the Tube is £5.50 any time PaYG.
>
> How do they separate Liz and tube passengers at Paddington if there's
> allegedly a barrierless transfer from **Liz** to Bakerloo?

Are there separate barrier lines at Heathrow?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>
>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central
>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>>>> Line, (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They
>>>> seem to have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish
>>>> (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from
>>>> (3) as these use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different
>>>> at Paddington.
>>>
>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>
>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train? And what
>>>> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do
>>>> they just charge an excess?
>>>
>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>
>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund the difference
>> at touch-out?
>
> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
> have that much credit.
>

I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).

Unlike Tokyo for example, which charges minimum fare on entry and the extra
on exit, so you can be stuck within the barriered area with no credit to
exit. There are top-up machines in that area for that reason.

>> Unfortunately I haven't used mine recently enough to be able
>> to check online.
>
> Nor I, but I have an idea it does have some concept of how much it's
> prepared to wager you won't go into negative balance.

Mine's got auto top up so that's not a problem.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central
>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>>>>> Line, (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They
>>>>> seem to have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish
>>>>> (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from
>>>>> (3) as these use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different
>>>>> at Paddington.
>>>>
>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>
>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train? And what
>>>>> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do
>>>>> they just charge an excess?
>>>>
>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>
>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund the difference
>>> at touch-out?
>>
>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
>> have that much credit.
>
>I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).

Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare. Nor perhaps is
it the final charge it might make if you fail to touch-out.

>Unlike Tokyo for example, which charges minimum fare on entry and the extra
>on exit, so you can be stuck within the barriered area with no credit to
>exit. There are top-up machines in that area for that reason.
>
>>> Unfortunately I haven't used mine recently enough to be able
>>> to check online.
>>
>> Nor I, but I have an idea it does have some concept of how much it's
>> prepared to wager you won't go into negative balance.
>
>Mine's got auto top up so that's not a problem.

Not everybody does, so that's TfL's problem.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ts5mnj$12r7b$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:39 on Fri, 10 Feb
> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts5hkp$12a6q$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:42:49 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <k4mlu8FdrfcU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:51:52 on Fri, 10
>>>>> Feb 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
>>>>>> used it much recently.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central
>>>>>> London and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>>>>>> Line, (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They
>>>>>> seem to have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish
>>>>>> (1) from (2 or 3) but I don't understand how they distinguish (2) from
>>>>>> (3) as these use the same platforms, or maybe they are always different
>>>>>> at Paddington.
>>>>>
>>>>> Different platforms at Paddington.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Are there always ticket checks on the Heathrow Express train? And what
>>>>>> if you've already touched in using an Oyster or Contactless card - do
>>>>>> they just charge an excess?
>>>>>
>>>>> Neither of those charge you anything, until you touch out, at which
>>>>> point they calculate the appropriate fare. Or if you never touch out,
>>>>> you get a unresolved-journey fee.
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't Oyster charge you a full fare at touch-in and refund the difference
>>>> at touch-out?
>>>
>>> AIUI, It doesn't charge you a maximum possible fare (eg at the moment to
>>> Gatwick/Luton Airports, or Shenfield/Reading), because not everyone will
>>> have that much credit.
>>
>> I thought it charged a Z6 journey (for entering in Z1).
>
> Perhaps it does, but that's not a maximum potential fare.

Not any more, but it was when the system was launched.

> Nor perhaps is
> it the final charge it might make if you fail to touch-out.
>

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:04:30 -0000 (UTC)
> > Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> >>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at Heathrow, having not
> >>> used it much recently.
> >>>
> >>> There are essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London
> >>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth Line,
> >>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express. They seem to
> >>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to distinguish (1) from (2 or
> >> 3)
> >>
> >> Not just separate gate lines, but separate stations. Including Hatton
> >> Cross, Heathrow has seven stations. Incidentally, HEx can be cheap if you
> >> book ahead.
> >
> > Cheaper than the liz line?
>
> HEx: £5.50 advance purchase, £25 PaYG
>
> Liz: £11.50

It seems quite hard to get the HEx website to quote below £20. I managed to
get the £5.50 fare by searching in July, but unless you're willing to book 6
months ahead you're going to be more expensive than the Liz.

Theo

On 10/02/2023 15:09, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Are there separate barrier lines at Heathrow?
>
No. At LHR T5 at least there is a common barrier line for HEX and Eliz line as they use the same platforms. Don't know about the other stations there.

--
Clive Page

On 10/02/2023 22:43, Clive Page wrote:
> On 10/02/2023 15:09, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Are there separate barrier lines at Heathrow?
>>
> No.  At LHR T5 at least there is a common barrier line for HEX and Eliz
> line as they use the same platforms.  Don't know about the other
> stations there.

I was wondering that. Actual layouts seem very difficult to find but
all terminals except T5 seem to have separate stations for underground
and rail. T5 seems to use P1-2 for underground, and P3-4 for rail, with
no walking route round the end of the tracks between 2 and 4[*], so they
may well have separate gatelines.

<https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations-and-destinations/stations-made-easy/heathrow-terminal-5-rail-station-only-station-plan>

[*] the platforms are numbered 1 (island) 2 (tracks) 4 (concourse) 3.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <8WrFL.364$Cvae.264@fx12.ams1>, at 13:47:48 on Fri, 10 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> Wrote in message:r
>>>> In message <ts5bb5$11jvq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:55:17 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:>Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>
>>>> wrote:>>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:04:30 -0000 (UTC)>>> Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu>
>>>> wrote:>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at
>>>> Heathrow, having not>>>>> used it much recently.>>>>>>>>>> There are
>>>> essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London>>>>>
>>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>>>> Line,>>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express.
>>>> They seem to>>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to
>>>> distinguish (1) >>>>>from (2 or>>>> 3)>>>>>>>> Not just separate gate
>>>> lines, but separate stations. Including Hatton>>>> Cross, Heathrow has
>>>> seven stations. Incidentally, HEx can be cheap if you>>>> book
>>>> ahead.>>>>>> Cheaper than the liz line?>>>> HEx: £5.50 advance
>>>> purchase, £25 PaYG>>>> Liz: £11.50>>And the Tube is £5.50 any time
>>>> PaYG.How do they separate Liz and tube passengers at Paddington if
>>>> there's allegedly a barrierless transfer from Hex to Bakerloo?
>>>
>>> No, that's between the Liz and Bakerloo.
>>
>> Sorry, that was finger trouble. Let's try again:
>>
>>>> Liz: £11.50 And the Tube is £5.50 any time PaYG.
>>
>> How do they separate Liz and tube passengers at Paddington if there's
>> allegedly a barrierless transfer from **Liz** to Bakerloo?
>
> Are there separate barrier lines at Heathrow?

Yes, of course.

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 10/02/2023 15:09, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Are there separate barrier lines at Heathrow?
>>
> No. At LHR T5 at least there is a common barrier line for HEX and Eliz
> line as they use the same platforms. Don't know about the other stations there.

That wasn't the question.

Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
> On 10/02/2023 22:43, Clive Page wrote:
>> On 10/02/2023 15:09, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Are there separate barrier lines at Heathrow?
>>>
>> No.  At LHR T5 at least there is a common barrier line for HEX and Eliz
>> line as they use the same platforms.  Don't know about the other
>> stations there.
>
> I was wondering that. Actual layouts seem very difficult to find but
> all terminals except T5 seem to have separate stations for underground
> and rail. T5 seems to use P1-2 for underground, and P3-4 for rail, with
> no walking route round the end of the tracks between 2 and 4[*], so they
> may well have separate gatelines.
>
> <https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations-and-destinations/stations-made-easy/heathrow-terminal-5-rail-station-only-station-plan>
>
> [*] the platforms are numbered 1 (island) 2 (tracks) 4 (concourse) 3.
>

The T5 LU and HEx/Liz stations are adjacent, but completely separate.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <8WrFL.364$Cvae.264@fx12.ams1>, at 13:47:48 on Fri, 10 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> Wrote in message:r
>>> In message <ts5bb5$11jvq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:55:17 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:>Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>
>>> wrote:>>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:04:30 -0000 (UTC)>>> Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu>
>>> wrote:>>>>> I don't know how Oyster/contactless cards work at
>>> Heathrow, having not>>>>> used it much recently.>>>>>>>>>> There are
>>> essentially 3 very different fare levels between central London>>>>>
>>> and the airport's terminals: (1) Tube only, (2) Tube + Elizabeth
>>> Line,>>>>> (3) top price for anything involving the Heathrow Express.
>>> They seem to>>>>> have two separate gate-lines at each terminal to
>>> distinguish (1) >>>>>from (2 or>>>> 3)>>>>>>>> Not just separate gate
>>> lines, but separate stations. Including Hatton>>>> Cross, Heathrow has
>>> seven stations. Incidentally, HEx can be cheap if you>>>> book
>>> ahead.>>>>>> Cheaper than the liz line?>>>> HEx: £5.50 advance
>>> purchase, £25 PaYG>>>> Liz: £11.50>>And the Tube is £5.50 any time
>>> PaYG.How do they separate Liz and tube passengers at Paddington if
>>> there's allegedly a barrierless transfer from Hex to Bakerloo?
>>
>> No, that's between the Liz and Bakerloo.
>
> Sorry, that was finger trouble. Let's try again:
>
>>> Liz: £11.50 And the Tube is £5.50 any time PaYG.
>
> How do they separate Liz and tube passengers at Paddington if there's
> allegedly a barrierless transfer from **Liz** to Bakerloo?

Incidentally, there's also cross-platform barrierless transfer from Liz to
Central and District line trains at Ealing Broadway, and barrierless
transfer to Circle, H&C, Jubilee, Met, Northern, DLR and LO platforms
elsewhere. ;h