https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

In message <5ss9FUO2jx$jFw6a@bancom.co.uk>, at 09:20:54 on Wed, 1 Mar
2023, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> remarked:
>
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384

The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
train heading north on the lefthand track), however the track there is
twin. Or were there some engineering works happening?

https://goo.gl/maps/LcZyM7jRNeLGCCEY9
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 09:41:16 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <5ss9FUO2jx$jFw6a@bancom.co.uk>, at 09:20:54 on Wed, 1 Mar
>2023, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>
>The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
>train heading north on the lefthand track), however the track there is
>twin. Or were there some engineering works happening?
>
>https://goo.gl/maps/LcZyM7jRNeLGCCEY9

I can only see one loco in that mess so possibly one train went into the
back of the other.

On 01/03/2023 10:22, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 09:41:16 +0000
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <5ss9FUO2jx$jFw6a@bancom.co.uk>, at 09:20:54 on Wed, 1 Mar
>> 2023, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>
>> The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
>> train heading north on the lefthand track), however the track there is
>> twin. Or were there some engineering works happening?
>>
>> https://goo.gl/maps/LcZyM7jRNeLGCCEY9
>
> I can only see one loco in that mess so possibly one train went into the
> back of the other.

The Guardian now claims that " a passenger train travelling from Athens
to the northern city of Thessaloniki, and a cargo train on its way from
Thessaloniki to Larissa – collided head-on".

<https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/01/greece-train-crash-deaths-injuries-larissa-collision-derailment>

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <5ss9FUO2jx$jFw6a@bancom.co.uk>, at 09:20:54 on Wed, 1 Mar
> 2023, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> remarked:
> >
> >https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>
> The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
> train heading north on the lefthand track), however the track there is
> twin. Or were there some engineering works happening?
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/LcZyM7jRNeLGCCEY9

I know the location well, having travelled through it a lot when I lived in
the area. Some say the vale of Tembi (Tempe) is 'cursed' due to the number
of road crashes, although it may not be uncorrelated with the state of the
road and the quality of Greek driving... (the road has been bypassed at
motorway standard now, so that probably helps)

This is the 'new' line, that was built in the 2000s to replace the twisty
19th century single track that followed field boundaries. (The old line
through the valley was scenic and the focus of some kind of preservation
effort, not sure where that went but it appears to be disconnected at both
ends[*]). Unlike the old line which followed the river valley on bridges,
there's a lot of tunnelling for the new line on the west side of the gorge.
When I lived there the tunnels were still under construction (most Greek
railway projects take 10+ years due to mismanagement and lack of funds).

Most 'new' lines in Greece are bidirectionally signalled, I suppose on the
basis that you're building a new signalling system so making it bi-di
doesn't add much to the cost. I don't think there is any common usage of
bi-di running in general use, although I'm not familiar with usage on that
section. However the presence of bi-di does mean it's possible to set a
route to put a train on the opposite track.

https://www.ekathimerini.com/ has reports and more pictures, although
nothing I can see suggesting at the cause. In the Greek version, there is
suggestion the signalling is being done manually:
https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562300477/sygkroysi-trenon-sta-tempi-ginontai-ola-cheirokinita-kataggellei-o-proedros-ton-michanodigon/
https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562300522/tragodia-sta-tempi-epi-45-oloklira-lepta-epsachnan-na-vroyn-se-poio-kommati-tis-diadromis-vrisketai-to-treno/
translations:
https://www-kathimerini-gr.translate.goog/society/562300477/sygkroysi-trenon-sta-tempi-ginontai-ola-cheirokinita-kataggellei-o-proedros-ton-michanodigon/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp
https://www-kathimerini-gr.translate.goog/society/562300522/tragodia-sta-tempi-epi-45-oloklira-lepta-epsachnan-na-vroyn-se-poio-kommati-tis-diadromis-vrisketai-to-treno/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp
The stationmaster of Larisa has been arrested.

The latter link says:

On the occasion of the tragedy in Tempi, Vassilis Zavogiannis ,
representative of the employees on the TRAINOSE Board of Directors, spoke to
"K" [Kathimerini] about the " decommissioning" of the basic safety means
that prevent a train accident . As he characteristically mentioned, neither
the signaling nor the remote control work, while the trains work exactly as
they did 30 years ago.

"The main problem on the Athens- Thessaloniki line is that the signaling and
remote control are not working , the basic safety means that protect the
trains from accidents . In essence, this critical railway line for the
country, in terms of its security and protection, in the year 2023, is
judged only by the human factor. Our trains operate the same way they did
30 years ago . To put it metaphorically, it's like having a pitin front
of our house. We know where it is and we always avoid it, but at some point
we fall in. That's what happened in this case as well."

Especially for the remote control system, Mr. Zavogiannis notes that it
does exist, however, it has never worked. "It is something that the
workers' unions have been calling for since 2018 already, when the route
started to go through the Kallidromou tunnel, after Tithorea, to Lianokladi,
instead of the route that until then went through Amfikleia, Lilaia and
Bralos . The remote control and signaling was an important part of the
modernization of the line but it stuck."

Mr. Zavogiannis considers the scenario of human error as the most likely
cause of the accident, stressing at the same time that the picture of the
course of the routes was not clear . " Think about how yesterday, for 45
whole minutes, they were looking to find which part of the route the train
was on . It's shocking what happened. Along with all the dead railway
workers, we lost , as far as we know, nine of our colleagues in this
accident."

Theo

[*] the accident appears to be just at the start of the old track - in this
photo it can be seen curving away just to the right of the freight train
https://www.kathimerini.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/AP23060235092349-835x440.jpg
Since there's now a wall between the two it won't have played a part in the
accident.

Any signifiance?

Train Collision in Greece: Electronic Systems ‘Not Working for Years’

https://greekreporter.com/2023/03/01/train-collision-greece-electronic-systems-not-working/

On 01/03/2023 10:22, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 09:41:16 +0000
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <5ss9FUO2jx$jFw6a@bancom.co.uk>, at 09:20:54 on Wed, 1 Mar
>> 2023, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>
>> The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
>> train heading north on the lefthand track), however the track there is
>> twin. Or were there some engineering works happening?
>>
>> https://goo.gl/maps/LcZyM7jRNeLGCCEY9
>
> I can only see one loco in that mess so possibly one train went into the
> back of the other.
>

Or was the passenger train a DMU?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 11:48:33 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 01/03/2023 10:22, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 09:41:16 +0000
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <5ss9FUO2jx$jFw6a@bancom.co.uk>, at 09:20:54 on Wed, 1 Mar
>>> 2023, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>
>>> The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
>>> train heading north on the lefthand track), however the track there is
>>> twin. Or were there some engineering works happening?
>>>
>>> https://goo.gl/maps/LcZyM7jRNeLGCCEY9
>>
>> I can only see one loco in that mess so possibly one train went into the
>> back of the other.
>>
>
>Or was the passenger train a DMU?

The carraiges look like loco hauled stock to me but who knows. Maybe it was
a push-pull being pushed.

On 01/03/2023 11:50, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 11:48:33 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 01/03/2023 10:22, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 09:41:16 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <5ss9FUO2jx$jFw6a@bancom.co.uk>, at 09:20:54 on Wed, 1 Mar
>>>> 2023, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>
>>>> The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
>>>> train heading north on the lefthand track), however the track there is
>>>> twin. Or were there some engineering works happening?
>>>>
>>>> https://goo.gl/maps/LcZyM7jRNeLGCCEY9
>>>
>>> I can only see one loco in that mess so possibly one train went into the
>>> back of the other.
>>>
>>
>> Or was the passenger train a DMU?
>
> The carraiges look like loco hauled stock to me but who knows. Maybe it was
> a push-pull being pushed.
>
>
Then latest info is that both trains were hauled by the same type of
electric loco, both were destroyed.

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64808123> image 6 shows the
passenger train loco in red and white, the freight loco can be seen in
blue in the top image on the left of the collision point. In fact the
mangled heap of red and white metal beyond the freight loco may well be
the passenger loco.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384

Now reported that a station master has been arrested
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384

I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do) which
was responsible for a crash.

On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>
> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>
> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do) which
> was responsible for a crash.

Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the signalling?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 01/03/2023 12:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
>> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>
>> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>
>> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do) which
>> was responsible for a crash.
>
> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the signalling?

According to the link posted above[1], "the station master gives the
green light to move to the next station. This procedure is done at
approximately 15 points on the route from Athens to Thessaloniki".

Presumably, one possible cause is that a station master may have "given
the green light" (either literally or metaphorically) when an oncoming
train was in the relevant section.

[1]
<https://greekreporter.com/2023/03/01/train-collision-greece-electronic-systems-not-working/>

Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 11:48:33 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >On 01/03/2023 10:22, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> >Or was the passenger train a DMU?
>
> The carraiges look like loco hauled stock to me but who knows. Maybe it was
> a push-pull being pushed.

OSE class 120 loco and carriages (think they're the Kioleidika type built by
Hellenic Shipyards ~2004). I don't think they typically run in push-pull.

Theo

On 01/03/2023 13:01, Certes wrote:
> On 01/03/2023 12:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
>>> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>
>>> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>
>>> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do)
>>> which was responsible for a crash.
>>
>> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the signalling?
>
> According to the link posted above[1], "the station master gives the
> green light to move to the next station. This procedure is done at
> approximately 15 points on the route from Athens to Thessaloniki".
>
> Presumably, one possible cause is that a station master may have "given
> the green light" (either literally or metaphorically) when an oncoming
> train was in the relevant section.
>
> [1]
> <https://greekreporter.com/2023/03/01/train-collision-greece-electronic-systems-not-working/>

He's been charged with manslaughter through negligence.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 01/03/2023 13:01, Certes wrote:
> On 01/03/2023 12:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
>>> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>
>>> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>
>>> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do)
>>> which was responsible for a crash.
>>
>> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the signalling?
>
> According to the link posted above[1], "the station master gives the
> green light to move to the next station. This procedure is done at
> approximately 15 points on the route from Athens to Thessaloniki".

Ah, so Greek station masters have some signalling duties? Didn't know
that. I was wondering whether it was a "ding ding and away" collision
(similar to Glasgow Bellgrove) where a driver got a "right away" (in
this case, from the stationmaster; in Bellgrove's case, from the guard)
but didn't check the signal. But the stationmaster *was* the signaller,
in this case.

Whatever the cause, let's hope lessons are learned and safety changes
are made.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
> > On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
> >>
> >> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
> >
> > Now reported that a station master has been arrested
> > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
> >
> > I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do) which
> > was responsible for a crash.
>
> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the signalling?

The station master is an employee of the infrastructure operator OSE
('organisation of railways of Greece'). The trains are run by Hellenic
Train, the privatised train operator formerly known as TRAINOSE that was
sold to the Italian FS.

I assume the position translated as station master (σταθμάρχης) is
effectively the regional manager: they are the person with overall
responsibility for the operation of the railway network in that area. I
don't think they're pulling signalling levers but the buck stops there.

(the UK equivalent might be the arrest of the Network Rail chief of
operations for the Newcastle area, being of roughly comparable importance.
Although the station itself is rather more of an Ely kind of scale, with
a handful of trains an hour)

Theo

On 01/03/2023 13:01, Certes wrote:
> On 01/03/2023 12:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
>>> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>
>>> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>
>>> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do)
>>> which was responsible for a crash.
>>
>> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the signalling?
>
> According to the link posted above[1], "the station master gives the
> green light to move to the next station. This procedure is done at
> approximately 15 points on the route from Athens to Thessaloniki".
>
> Presumably, one possible cause is that a station master may have "given
> the green light" (either literally or metaphorically) when an oncoming
> train was in the relevant section.
>
> [1]
> <https://greekreporter.com/2023/03/01/train-collision-greece-electronic-systems-not-working/>

[quote]
“Nothing works, everything is done manually. We are ‘in manual mode’
throughout the Athens-Thessaloniki network,” he said, emphasizing that
neither the indicators, the traffic lights, nor the electronic traffic
control is working.

When in Athens the station master gives the green light to move to the
next station. This procedure is done at approximately 15 points on the
route from Athens to Thessaloniki because no telemonitoring, or
photo-signaling system is working, he said.
[/quote]

Oh shit! FUBAR!

(I presume "traffic light" is a bad translation of "(colour light) signal".)

On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 13:01:45 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:

>On 01/03/2023 12:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
>>> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>
>>> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>
>>> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do) which
>>> was responsible for a crash.
>>
>> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the signalling?
>
>According to the link posted above[1], "the station master gives the
>green light to move to the next station. This procedure is done at
>approximately 15 points on the route from Athens to Thessaloniki".
>
>Presumably, one possible cause is that a station master may have "given
>the green light" (either literally or metaphorically) when an oncoming
>train was in the relevant section.
>
>[1]
><https://greekreporter.com/2023/03/01/train-collision-greece-electronic-systems-not-working/>

Sounds more like blowing the whistle than setting the route.

On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 13:18:04 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>On 01/03/2023 13:01, Certes wrote:
>> On 01/03/2023 12:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
>>>> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>
>>>> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do)
>>>> which was responsible for a crash.
>>>
>>> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the signalling?
>>
>> According to the link posted above[1], "the station master gives the
>> green light to move to the next station. This procedure is done at
>> approximately 15 points on the route from Athens to Thessaloniki".
>
>Ah, so Greek station masters have some signalling duties? Didn't know
>that. I was wondering whether it was a "ding ding and away" collision
>(similar to Glasgow Bellgrove) where a driver got a "right away" (in
>this case, from the stationmaster; in Bellgrove's case, from the guard)
>but didn't check the signal. But the stationmaster *was* the signaller,
>in this case.
>
When I visited the Circumaetna railway in Sicily some stations had
signalling offices as part of their platform building, presumably
operated by station staff. And I think in the excellent Polish film
Closely Observed Trains the station staff operated signals. Perhaps
this was the norm in parts of Europe, at least in rural areas?

>Whatever the cause, let's hope lessons are learned and safety changes
>are made.

Am 01.03.2023 um 14:53 schrieb Ken:
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 13:18:04 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> On 01/03/2023 13:01, Certes wrote:
>>> On 01/03/2023 12:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
>>>>> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>
>>>>> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do)
>>>>> which was responsible for a crash.
>>>>
>>>> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the signalling?
>>>
>>> According to the link posted above[1], "the station master gives the
>>> green light to move to the next station. This procedure is done at
>>> approximately 15 points on the route from Athens to Thessaloniki".
>>
>> Ah, so Greek station masters have some signalling duties? Didn't know
>> that. I was wondering whether it was a "ding ding and away" collision
>> (similar to Glasgow Bellgrove) where a driver got a "right away" (in
>> this case, from the stationmaster; in Bellgrove's case, from the guard)
>> but didn't check the signal. But the stationmaster *was* the signaller,
>> in this case.
>>
> When I visited the Circumaetna railway in Sicily some stations had
> signalling offices as part of their platform building, presumably
> operated by station staff. And I think in the excellent Polish film
> Closely Observed Trains the station staff operated signals. Perhaps
> this was the norm in parts of Europe, at least in rural areas?

Let's say: It was the norm in many countries that small signalling
offices were an integrated part of station buildings (e.g. when the only
points in the station are in direct view of the platforms).

In rural regions, this led to the possibility of reducing station staff
to 1 person when there was not enough work for more than 1 person, with
the unavoidable consequence that sale of train tickets had to stop 5 to
10 minutes before the train arrived.

Rolf

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 01/03/2023 11:50, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 11:48:33 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 01/03/2023 10:22, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 09:41:16 +0000
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <5ss9FUO2jx$jFw6a@bancom.co.uk>, at 09:20:54 on Wed, 1 Mar
>>>>> 2023, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>
>>>>> The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
>>>>> train heading north on the lefthand track), however the track there is
>>>>> twin. Or were there some engineering works happening?
>>>>>
>>>>> https://goo.gl/maps/LcZyM7jRNeLGCCEY9
>>>>
>>>> I can only see one loco in that mess so possibly one train went into the
>>>> back of the other.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Or was the passenger train a DMU?
>>
>> The carraiges look like loco hauled stock to me but who knows. Maybe it was
>> a push-pull being pushed.
>>
>>
> Then latest info is that both trains were hauled by the same type of
> electric loco, both were destroyed.
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64808123> image 6 shows the
> passenger train loco in red and white, the freight loco can be seen in
> blue in the top image on the left of the collision point. In fact the
> mangled heap of red and white metal beyond the freight loco may well be
> the passenger loco.

The number of the red and white loco is in one of those shots and both loco
numbers are given in another report. Their Wikipedia entries also record
that both have been destroyed in the crash.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 13:53:36 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 13:18:04 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>On 01/03/2023 13:01, Certes wrote:
>>> On 01/03/2023 12:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
>>>>> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>
>>>>> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do)
>>>>> which was responsible for a crash.
>>>>
>>>> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the signalling?
>>>
>>> According to the link posted above[1], "the station master gives the
>>> green light to move to the next station. This procedure is done at
>>> approximately 15 points on the route from Athens to Thessaloniki".
>>
>>Ah, so Greek station masters have some signalling duties? Didn't know
>>that. I was wondering whether it was a "ding ding and away" collision
>>(similar to Glasgow Bellgrove) where a driver got a "right away" (in
>>this case, from the stationmaster; in Bellgrove's case, from the guard)
>>but didn't check the signal. But the stationmaster *was* the signaller,
>>in this case.
>>
>When I visited the Circumaetna railway in Sicily some stations had
>signalling offices as part of their platform building, presumably
>operated by station staff. And I think in the excellent Polish film
>Closely Observed Trains the station staff operated signals. Perhaps
>this was the norm in parts of Europe, at least in rural areas?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_railway_signalling

On 01/03/2023 13:53, Ken wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 13:18:04 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> On 01/03/2023 13:01, Certes wrote:
>>> On 01/03/2023 12:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
>>>>> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>
>>>>> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do)
>>>>> which was responsible for a crash.
>>>>
>>>> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the signalling?
>>>
>>> According to the link posted above[1], "the station master gives the
>>> green light to move to the next station. This procedure is done at
>>> approximately 15 points on the route from Athens to Thessaloniki".
>>
>> Ah, so Greek station masters have some signalling duties? Didn't know
>> that. I was wondering whether it was a "ding ding and away" collision
>> (similar to Glasgow Bellgrove) where a driver got a "right away" (in
>> this case, from the stationmaster; in Bellgrove's case, from the guard)
>> but didn't check the signal. But the stationmaster *was* the signaller,
>> in this case.
>>
> When I visited the Circumaetna railway in Sicily some stations had
> signalling offices as part of their platform building, presumably
> operated by station staff. And I think in the excellent Polish film
> Closely Observed Trains the station staff operated signals. Perhaps
> this was the norm in parts of Europe, at least in rural areas?
>

Was the norm on some lines here, wasn't Abergele a similar problem,
though there it was single line.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 01/03/2023 14:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 01/03/2023 13:53, Ken wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 13:18:04 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 01/03/2023 13:01, Certes wrote:
>>>> On 01/03/2023 12:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do)
>>>>>> which was responsible for a crash.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the
>>>>> signalling?
>>>>
>>>> According to the link posted above[1], "the station master gives the
>>>> green light to move to the next station. This procedure is done at
>>>> approximately 15 points on the route from Athens to Thessaloniki".
>>>
>>> Ah, so Greek station masters have some signalling duties? Didn't know
>>> that. I was wondering whether it was a "ding ding and away" collision
>>> (similar to Glasgow Bellgrove) where a driver got a "right away" (in
>>> this case, from the stationmaster; in Bellgrove's case, from the guard)
>>> but didn't check the signal. But the stationmaster *was* the signaller,
>>> in this case.
>>>
>> When I visited the Circumaetna railway in Sicily some stations had
>> signalling offices as part of their platform building, presumably
>> operated by station staff. And I think in the excellent Polish film
>> Closely Observed Trains the station staff operated signals. Perhaps
>> this was the norm in parts of Europe, at least in rural areas?
>>
>
> Was the norm on some lines here, wasn't Abergele a similar problem,
> though there it was single line.

I'm sure in the 1800s and 1900s it was quite common for station staff at
small stations to have to divide their time between platform duties and
signalling duties (eg collecting and returning the *correct* tablet to
the driver). But it's not something you expect in the 21st century.

Intriguing that one of the trains not only got an incorrect green light
but was also (it seems) routed wrong-line.

Do Greek railways produce RAIB-like accident reports? If so, that will
make interesting reading...

How common is it for countries to make reports into railway crashes
available outside the rail industry for the general public? Is the UK
unusual in this, or is it the norm in most countries?

In message <1iidnWhISJAL-mL-nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
14:56:20 on Wed, 1 Mar 2023, NY <me@privacy.net> remarked:
>On 01/03/2023 14:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 01/03/2023 13:53, Ken wrote:
>>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 13:18:04 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 01/03/2023 13:01, Certes wrote:
>>>>> On 01/03/2023 12:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 12:33, NY wrote:
>>>>>>> On 01/03/2023 09:20, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now reported that a station master has been arrested
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder what a station master could have done (or failed to do)
>>>>>>> which was responsible for a crash.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does a Greek station master's duties including operating the
>>>>>>signalling?
>>>>>
>>>>> According to the link posted above[1], "the station master gives the
>>>>> green light to move to the next station. This procedure is done at
>>>>> approximately 15 points on the route from Athens to Thessaloniki".
>>>>
>>>> Ah, so Greek station masters have some signalling duties? Didn't know
>>>> that. I was wondering whether it was a "ding ding and away" collision
>>>> (similar to Glasgow Bellgrove) where a driver got a "right away" (in
>>>> this case, from the stationmaster; in Bellgrove's case, from the guard)
>>>> but didn't check the signal. But the stationmaster *was* the signaller,
>>>> in this case.
>>>>
>>> When I visited the Circumaetna railway in Sicily some stations had
>>> signalling offices as part of their platform building, presumably
>>> operated by station staff. And I think in the excellent Polish film
>>> Closely Observed Trains the station staff operated signals. Perhaps
>>> this was the norm in parts of Europe, at least in rural areas?
>>>
>> Was the norm on some lines here, wasn't Abergele a similar problem,
>>though there it was single line.
>
>I'm sure in the 1800s and 1900s it was quite common for station staff
>at small stations to have to divide their time between platform duties
>and signalling duties (eg collecting and returning the *correct* tablet
>to the driver). But it's not something you expect in the 21st century.
>
>Intriguing that one of the trains not only got an incorrect green light
>but was also (it seems) routed wrong-line.

Wouldn't it not have mattered if they got a false green light, had they
not been routed wrong-track? It's the latter which seems to be the issue
here.

>Do Greek railways produce RAIB-like accident reports? If so, that will
>make interesting reading...
>
>How common is it for countries to make reports into railway crashes
>available outside the rail industry for the general public? Is the UK
>unusual in this, or is it the norm in most countries?

--
Roland Perry