On 05/02/2022 19:42, Kelly Phillips wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:15:00 +0000, David Brooks
> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>
>> On 05/02/2022 06:17, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 22:20:31 +0000, David Brooks
>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> When one looks at an image on a screen, how can one tell that it's being
>>>> shown by the REAL operating system ...... or being displayed on a
>>>> VIRTUAL machine screen?
>>>
>>> If "one" is not an idiot, then it's entirely straightforward and
>>> obvious. However, if "one" is an idiot, then all bets are off.
>>
>> [....]
>>
>> So, let's be clear.
>>
>> YOU claim "it's entirely straightforward and
>> obvious" yet you cannot describe HOW.
>>
>> Is that right?
>
> No, and it's obvious that snit is pulling your strings.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Snit.

> A VM host is an application. You know when you're running it. Inside
> that application, a guest OS (VM) is another application. You know when
> you're running it. I see no possibility for confusion, but to be fair,
> I'm not the idiot computer user that you are.
>
> Don't take my word for it, though. VMware, the obvious leader in that
> space, has a free version of VMware Fusion that you can download and
> install on your ??-inch iMac. Fusion is your VM host application. Run
> that and use its capabilities to install one or more VM guests. Now run
> your guest. Do you see any scenario where you wouldn't be able to tell
> the difference between your VM guest and your host OS? I think not, but
> every time I think I've found the basement of your technical skills, you
> surprise me by digging another level down.

Interesting, but VMWare is not available from my Apple App Store.
https://ibb.co/n7MdLF1

What I'm getting at is that it was once suggested to me that it is
possible for a VM to be installed on a computer WITHOUT the knowledge of
the user AND without a hacker having physical access to the machine itself.

Once done, the 'BotMaster' could subsequently control what the user of
the computer is shown on his/her screen.

Snit appears to agree with me that it might be impossible for the
computer user to actually KNOW whether of not they are viewing true or
false information.

Does that help you to understand?

Do you know HOW one could ascertain whether or not a computer had been
compromised in this manner?

You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest
that naively downloading and installing appropriate software would be a
possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually happens
when they install software onto their machines.

--
Kind regards,
David

on 2/6/2022, David Brooks supposed :
> On 05/02/2022 19:42, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:15:00 +0000, David Brooks
>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/02/2022 06:17, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 22:20:31 +0000, David Brooks
>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> When one looks at an image on a screen, how can one tell that it's being
>>>>> shown by the REAL operating system ...... or being displayed on a
>>>>> VIRTUAL machine screen?
>>>>
>>>> If "one" is not an idiot, then it's entirely straightforward and
>>>> obvious. However, if "one" is an idiot, then all bets are off.
>>>
>>> [....]
>>>
>>> So, let's be clear.
>>>
>>> YOU claim "it's entirely straightforward and
>>> obvious" yet you cannot describe HOW.
>>>
>>> Is that right?
>>
>> No, and it's obvious that snit is pulling your strings.
>
> This has absolutely nothing to do with Snit.
>
>> A VM host is an application. You know when you're running it. Inside
>> that application, a guest OS (VM) is another application. You know when
>> you're running it. I see no possibility for confusion, but to be fair,
>> I'm not the idiot computer user that you are.
>>
>> Don't take my word for it, though. VMware, the obvious leader in that
>> space, has a free version of VMware Fusion that you can download and
>> install on your ??-inch iMac. Fusion is your VM host application. Run
>> that and use its capabilities to install one or more VM guests. Now run
>> your guest. Do you see any scenario where you wouldn't be able to tell
>> the difference between your VM guest and your host OS? I think not, but
>> every time I think I've found the basement of your technical skills, you
>> surprise me by digging another level down.
>
> Interesting, but VMWare is not available from my Apple App Store.
> https://ibb.co/n7MdLF1
>
> What I'm getting at is that it was once suggested to me that it is possible
> for a VM to be installed on a computer WITHOUT the knowledge of the user AND
> without a hacker having physical access to the machine itself.
>
> Once done, the 'BotMaster' could subsequently control what the user of the
> computer is shown on his/her screen.
>
> Snit appears to agree with me that it might be impossible for the computer
> user to actually KNOW whether of not they are viewing true or false
> information.
>
> Does that help you to understand?
>
> Do you know HOW one could ascertain whether or not a computer had been
> compromised in this manner?
>
> You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest that
> naively downloading and installing appropriate software would be a possible
> route. Most computer users have no idea what actually happens when they
> install software onto their machines.

https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/pub-inf_5317.pdf

On 06/02/2022 08:59, FromTheRafters wrote:
> on 2/6/2022, David Brooks supposed :
>> On 05/02/2022 19:42, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:15:00 +0000, David Brooks
>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05/02/2022 06:17, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 22:20:31 +0000, David Brooks
>>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> When one looks at an image on a screen, how can one tell that it's
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> shown by the REAL operating system ...... or being displayed on a
>>>>>> VIRTUAL machine screen?
>>>>>
>>>>> If "one" is not an idiot, then it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>> obvious. However, if "one" is an idiot, then all bets are off.
>>>>
>>>> [....]
>>>>
>>>> So, let's be clear.
>>>>
>>>> YOU claim "it's entirely straightforward and
>>>> obvious" yet you cannot describe HOW.
>>>>
>>>> Is that right?
>>>
>>> No, and it's obvious that snit is pulling your strings.
>>
>> This has absolutely nothing to do with Snit.
>>
>>> A VM host is an application. You know when you're running it. Inside
>>> that application, a guest OS (VM) is another application. You know when
>>> you're running it. I see no possibility for confusion, but to be fair,
>>> I'm not the idiot computer user that you are.
>>>
>>> Don't take my word for it, though. VMware, the obvious leader in that
>>> space, has a free version of VMware Fusion that you can download and
>>> install on your ??-inch iMac. Fusion is your VM host application. Run
>>> that and use its capabilities to install one or more VM guests. Now run
>>> your guest. Do you see any scenario where you wouldn't be able to tell
>>> the difference between your VM guest and your host OS? I think not, but
>>> every time I think I've found the basement of your technical skills, you
>>> surprise me by digging another level down.
>>
>> Interesting, but VMWare is not available from my Apple App Store.
>> https://ibb.co/n7MdLF1
>>
>> What I'm getting at is that it was once suggested to me that it is
>> possible for a VM to be installed on a computer WITHOUT the knowledge
>> of the user AND without a hacker having physical access to the machine
>> itself.
>>
>> Once done, the 'BotMaster' could subsequently control what the user of
>> the computer is shown on his/her screen.
>>
>> Snit appears to agree with me that it might be impossible for the
>> computer user to actually KNOW whether of not they are viewing true or
>> false information.
>>
>> Does that help you to understand?
>>
>> Do you know HOW one could ascertain whether or not a computer had been
>> compromised in this manner?
>>
>> You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest
>> that naively downloading and installing appropriate software would be
>> a possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually
>> happens when they install software onto their machines.
>
> https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/pub-inf_5317.pdf

EXCELLENT - I will study later. Thank you.

Have YOU any suggestion of HOW I can check my iMac? Are you familiar
with Knock Knock?

David Brooks wrote on 2/6/2022 :
> On 06/02/2022 08:59, FromTheRafters wrote:
>> on 2/6/2022, David Brooks supposed :
>>> On 05/02/2022 19:42, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:15:00 +0000, David Brooks
>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05/02/2022 06:17, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 22:20:31 +0000, David Brooks
>>>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When one looks at an image on a screen, how can one tell that it's
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> shown by the REAL operating system ...... or being displayed on a
>>>>>>> VIRTUAL machine screen?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If "one" is not an idiot, then it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>>> obvious. However, if "one" is an idiot, then all bets are off.
>>>>>
>>>>> [....]
>>>>>
>>>>> So, let's be clear.
>>>>>
>>>>> YOU claim "it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>> obvious" yet you cannot describe HOW.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that right?
>>>>
>>>> No, and it's obvious that snit is pulling your strings.
>>>
>>> This has absolutely nothing to do with Snit.
>>>
>>>> A VM host is an application. You know when you're running it. Inside
>>>> that application, a guest OS (VM) is another application. You know when
>>>> you're running it. I see no possibility for confusion, but to be fair,
>>>> I'm not the idiot computer user that you are.
>>>>
>>>> Don't take my word for it, though. VMware, the obvious leader in that
>>>> space, has a free version of VMware Fusion that you can download and
>>>> install on your ??-inch iMac. Fusion is your VM host application. Run
>>>> that and use its capabilities to install one or more VM guests. Now run
>>>> your guest. Do you see any scenario where you wouldn't be able to tell
>>>> the difference between your VM guest and your host OS? I think not, but
>>>> every time I think I've found the basement of your technical skills, you
>>>> surprise me by digging another level down.
>>>
>>> Interesting, but VMWare is not available from my Apple App Store.
>>> https://ibb.co/n7MdLF1
>>>
>>> What I'm getting at is that it was once suggested to me that it is
>>> possible for a VM to be installed on a computer WITHOUT the knowledge of
>>> the user AND without a hacker having physical access to the machine
>>> itself.
>>>
>>> Once done, the 'BotMaster' could subsequently control what the user of the
>>> computer is shown on his/her screen.
>>>
>>> Snit appears to agree with me that it might be impossible for the computer
>>> user to actually KNOW whether of not they are viewing true or false
>>> information.
>>>
>>> Does that help you to understand?
>>>
>>> Do you know HOW one could ascertain whether or not a computer had been
>>> compromised in this manner?
>>>
>>> You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest that
>>> naively downloading and installing appropriate software would be a
>>> possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually happens
>>> when they install software onto their machines.
>>
>> https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/pub-inf_5317.pdf
>
> EXCELLENT - I will study later. Thank you.
>
> Have YOU any suggestion of HOW I can check my iMac? Are you familiar with
> Knock Knock?

No. You have a habit of asking questions where you have little chance
of understanding the answers. You asked something general and I
answered something specific, that is a 'surreptitiously installed' VM
(like a full featured rootkit type of malware) could be detectable, in
some cases, by software. My linked answer was about how malware can
detect malware analyst's VMs from within said VMs.

On 2022-02-06, FromTheRafters <erratic@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

(snip)

>>>> You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest that
>>>> naively downloading and installing appropriate software would be a
>>>> possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually happens
>>>> when they install software onto their machines.
>>>
>>> https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/pub-inf_5317.pdf
>>
>> EXCELLENT - I will study later. Thank you.
>>
>> Have YOU any suggestion of HOW I can check my iMac? Are you familiar with
>> Knock Knock?
>
> No. You have a habit of asking questions where you have little chance
> of understanding the answers. You asked something general and I
> answered something specific, that is a 'surreptitiously installed' VM
> (like a full featured rootkit type of malware) could be detectable, in
> some cases, by software. My linked answer was about how malware can
> detect malware analyst's VMs from within said VMs.

+1

On 06/02/2022 15:27, Steve Carroll wrote:
> On 2022-02-06, FromTheRafters <erratic@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
>>>>> You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest that
>>>>> naively downloading and installing appropriate software would be a
>>>>> possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually happens
>>>>> when they install software onto their machines.
>>>>
>>>> https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/pub-inf_5317.pdf
>>>
>>> EXCELLENT - I will study later. Thank you.
>>>
>>> Have YOU any suggestion of HOW I can check my iMac? Are you familiar with
>>> Knock Knock?
>>
>> No. You have a habit of asking questions where you have little chance
>> of understanding the answers. You asked something general and I
>> answered something specific, that is a 'surreptitiously installed' VM
>> (like a full featured rootkit type of malware) could be detectable, in
>> some cases, by software. My linked answer was about how malware can
>> detect malware analyst's VMs from within said VMs.
>
> +1

Just suppose, Steve, that you visited a website and downloaded some
software onto your Apple computer and then installed it.

Assume, in doing so, you inadvertently installed a "rootkit type of
malware" onto your computer. If you were still able to use your computer
to achieve your chosen tasks, how would YOU ever detect that you were
hosting a spy within, as it were?

On 2022-02-06, David Brooks <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 06/02/2022 15:27, Steve Carroll wrote:
>> On 2022-02-06, FromTheRafters <erratic@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>>>>>> You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest that
>>>>>> naively downloading and installing appropriate software would be a
>>>>>> possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually happens
>>>>>> when they install software onto their machines.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/pub-inf_5317.pdf
>>>>
>>>> EXCELLENT - I will study later. Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> Have YOU any suggestion of HOW I can check my iMac? Are you familiar with
>>>> Knock Knock?
>>>
>>> No. You have a habit of asking questions where you have little chance
>>> of understanding the answers. You asked something general and I
>>> answered something specific, that is a 'surreptitiously installed' VM
>>> (like a full featured rootkit type of malware) could be detectable, in
>>> some cases, by software. My linked answer was about how malware can
>>> detect malware analyst's VMs from within said VMs.
>>
>> +1
>
> Just suppose, Steve, that you visited a website and downloaded some
> software onto your Apple computer and then installed it.
>
> Assume, in doing so, you inadvertently installed a "rootkit type of
> malware" onto your computer. If you were still able to use your computer
> to achieve your chosen tasks, how would YOU ever detect that you were
> hosting a spy within, as it were?

I've been over this with you, if you recall, I even pointed out the
malware (via npm) that went undetected by ClamX's engine. I've been far
more 'affected' by YOUR paranoia ;)

I don't spend a lot of time thinking about 'what ifs', but were there a
'what if' I was as concerned about as you seem to be, I'd spend the time
to learn about it, as opposed to asking the same questions over and over
from the same groups of people. As I've pointed out in the past, there
are means available for you to detect (and be alerted to) when something
is being installed. Are they 'Snit-level' easy? No. Short of that, you
can run a scan after every session where you've dl'd something. If
you're that worried, the best solution is to never keep sensitive data
on your computer.

On 2022 Feb 06, David Brooks wrote
(in article <XMSLJ.10927$EjU2.10622@fx07.ams1>):

> On 06/02/2022 15:27, Steve Carroll wrote:
> > On 2022-02-06, FromTheRafters<erratic@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> >
> > (snip)
> >
> > > > > > You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > naively downloading and installing appropriate software would be a
> > > > > > possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually happens
> > > > > > when they install software onto their machines.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/pub-inf_5317.pdf
> > > >
> > > > EXCELLENT - I will study later. Thank you.
> > > >
> > > > Have YOU any suggestion of HOW I can check my iMac? Are you familiar with
> > > > Knock Knock?
> > >
> > > No. You have a habit of asking questions where you have little chance
> > > of understanding the answers. You asked something general and I
> > > answered something specific, that is a 'surreptitiously installed' VM
> > > (like a full featured rootkit type of malware) could be detectable, in
> > > some cases, by software. My linked answer was about how malware can
> > > detect malware analyst's VMs from within said VMs.
> >
> > +1
>
> Just suppose, Steve, that you visited a website and downloaded some
> software onto your Apple computer and then installed it.
>
> Assume, in doing so, you inadvertently installed a "rootkit type of
> malware" onto your computer.

you’re an idiot. the number of rootkits available for Macs is very low.
Most of them have problems with XProtect or SIP or both. Apple has
specifically addressed in November 2021 one strain which could bypass SIP.
Unless and until new SIP bypasses are developed, any rootkit can’t be
installed if you have SIP turned on.
> If you were still able to use your computer
> to achieve your chosen tasks, how would YOU ever detect that you were
> hosting a spy within, as it were?

Sophos and MalwareBytes both detected rootkits. Even those which bypass SIP
or which are installed because some idiot has turned SIP off.

There are also at least two command-line tools available from Git which not
merelt detect but remove rootkits. As you’re massively incompetent, you
dpn’t know how to use those tools. Hint: you can get the source code and
compile them yourself. Well, I could. You’re an idiot. If you have the
source, you can inspect it and see what each line does and will _know_
what’s in there.

On 06/02/2022 12:46, FromTheRafters wrote:
> David Brooks wrote on 2/6/2022 :
>> On 06/02/2022 08:59, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>> on 2/6/2022, David Brooks supposed :
>>>> On 05/02/2022 19:42, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:15:00 +0000, David Brooks
>>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 05/02/2022 06:17, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 22:20:31 +0000, David Brooks
>>>>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When one looks at an image on a screen, how can one tell that
>>>>>>>> it's being
>>>>>>>> shown by the REAL operating system ...... or being displayed on a
>>>>>>>> VIRTUAL machine screen?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If "one" is not an idiot, then it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>>>> obvious. However, if "one" is an idiot, then all bets are off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [....]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, let's be clear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> YOU claim "it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>>> obvious" yet you cannot describe HOW.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that right?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, and it's obvious that snit is pulling your strings.
>>>>
>>>> This has absolutely nothing to do with Snit.
>>>>
>>>>> A VM host is an application. You know when you're running it. Inside
>>>>> that application, a guest OS (VM) is another application. You know
>>>>> when
>>>>> you're running it. I see no possibility for confusion, but to be fair,
>>>>> I'm not the idiot computer user that you are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't take my word for it, though. VMware, the obvious leader in that
>>>>> space, has a free version of VMware Fusion that you can download and
>>>>> install on your ??-inch iMac. Fusion is your VM host application. Run
>>>>> that and use its capabilities to install one or more VM guests. Now
>>>>> run
>>>>> your guest. Do you see any scenario where you wouldn't be able to tell
>>>>> the difference between your VM guest and your host OS? I think not,
>>>>> but
>>>>> every time I think I've found the basement of your technical
>>>>> skills, you
>>>>> surprise me by digging another level down.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting, but VMWare is not available from my Apple App Store.
>>>> https://ibb.co/n7MdLF1
>>>>
>>>> What I'm getting at is that it was once suggested to me that it is
>>>> possible for a VM to be installed on a computer WITHOUT the
>>>> knowledge of the user AND without a hacker having physical access to
>>>> the machine itself.
>>>>
>>>> Once done, the 'BotMaster' could subsequently control what the user
>>>> of the computer is shown on his/her screen.
>>>>
>>>> Snit appears to agree with me that it might be impossible for the
>>>> computer user to actually KNOW whether of not they are viewing true
>>>> or false information.
>>>>
>>>> Does that help you to understand?
>>>>
>>>> Do you know HOW one could ascertain whether or not a computer had
>>>> been compromised in this manner?
>>>>
>>>> You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest
>>>> that naively downloading and installing appropriate software would
>>>> be a possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually
>>>> happens when they install software onto their machines.
>>>
>>> https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/pub-inf_5317.pdf
>>
>> EXCELLENT - I will study later. Thank you.
>>
>> Have YOU any suggestion of HOW I can check my iMac? Are you familiar
>> with Knock Knock?
>
> No. You have a habit of asking questions where you have little chance of
> understanding the answers. You asked something general and I answered
> something specific, that is a 'surreptitiously installed' VM (like a
> full featured rootkit type of malware) could be detectable, in some
> cases, by software. My linked answer was about how malware can detect
> malware analyst's VMs from within said VMs.

OK - Details here:- https://objective-see.com/products/knockknock.html

I appreciate your input, FTR. Thank you. :-)

--
David

On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 08:34:03 -0000, wrote:

> On 05/02/2022 19:42, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:15:00 +0000, David Brooks
>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/02/2022 06:17, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 22:20:31 +0000, David Brooks
>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> When one looks at an image on a screen, how can one tell that it's being
>>>>> shown by the REAL operating system ...... or being displayed on a
>>>>> VIRTUAL machine screen?
>>>>
>>>> If "one" is not an idiot, then it's entirely straightforward and
>>>> obvious. However, if "one" is an idiot, then all bets are off.
>>>
>>> [....]
>>>
>>> So, let's be clear.
>>>
>>> YOU claim "it's entirely straightforward and
>>> obvious" yet you cannot describe HOW.
>>>
>>> Is that right?
>>
>> No, and it's obvious that snit is pulling your strings.
>
> This has absolutely nothing to do with Snit.
>
>> A VM host is an application. You know when you're running it. Inside
>> that application, a guest OS (VM) is another application. You know when
>> you're running it. I see no possibility for confusion, but to be fair,
>> I'm not the idiot computer user that you are.
>>
>> Don't take my word for it, though. VMware, the obvious leader in that
>> space, has a free version of VMware Fusion that you can download and
>> install on your ??-inch iMac. Fusion is your VM host application. Run
>> that and use its capabilities to install one or more VM guests. Now run
>> your guest. Do you see any scenario where you wouldn't be able to tell
>> the difference between your VM guest and your host OS? I think not, but
>> every time I think I've found the basement of your technical skills, you
>> surprise me by digging another level down.
>
> Interesting, but VMWare is not available from my Apple App Store.
> https://ibb.co/n7MdLF1
>
> What I'm getting at is that it was once suggested to me that it is
> possible for a VM to be installed on a computer WITHOUT the knowledge of
> the user AND without a hacker having physical access to the machine itself.
>
> Once done, the 'BotMaster' could subsequently control what the user of
> the computer is shown on his/her screen.
>
> Snit appears to agree with me that it might be impossible for the
> computer user to actually KNOW whether of not they are viewing true or
> false information.
>
> Does that help you to understand?
>
> Do you know HOW one could ascertain whether or not a computer had been
> compromised in this manner?
>
> You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest
> that naively downloading and installing appropriate software would be a
> possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually happens
> when they install software onto their machines.

I have used (for a laugh after it was used on me for a laugh) "back orifice". You can remotely control someone else's computer. Someone remotely printed the entire manual for a computer game on every laser printer at my work overnight. I tried the trick on a friend in Canada, but accidentally opened the door for anyone to control his machine. He didn't like that.

On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 20:24:08 -0000, wrote:

> On 06/02/2022 12:46, FromTheRafters wrote:
>> David Brooks wrote on 2/6/2022 :
>>> On 06/02/2022 08:59, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>> on 2/6/2022, David Brooks supposed :
>>>>> On 05/02/2022 19:42, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:15:00 +0000, David Brooks
>>>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 05/02/2022 06:17, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 22:20:31 +0000, David Brooks
>>>>>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When one looks at an image on a screen, how can one tell that
>>>>>>>>> it's being
>>>>>>>>> shown by the REAL operating system ...... or being displayed on a
>>>>>>>>> VIRTUAL machine screen?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If "one" is not an idiot, then it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>>>>> obvious. However, if "one" is an idiot, then all bets are off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [....]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, let's be clear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> YOU claim "it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>>>> obvious" yet you cannot describe HOW.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is that right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, and it's obvious that snit is pulling your strings.
>>>>>
>>>>> This has absolutely nothing to do with Snit.
>>>>>
>>>>>> A VM host is an application. You know when you're running it. Inside
>>>>>> that application, a guest OS (VM) is another application. You know
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> you're running it. I see no possibility for confusion, but to be fair,
>>>>>> I'm not the idiot computer user that you are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't take my word for it, though. VMware, the obvious leader in that
>>>>>> space, has a free version of VMware Fusion that you can download and
>>>>>> install on your ??-inch iMac. Fusion is your VM host application. Run
>>>>>> that and use its capabilities to install one or more VM guests. Now
>>>>>> run
>>>>>> your guest. Do you see any scenario where you wouldn't be able to tell
>>>>>> the difference between your VM guest and your host OS? I think not,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> every time I think I've found the basement of your technical
>>>>>> skills, you
>>>>>> surprise me by digging another level down.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting, but VMWare is not available from my Apple App Store.
>>>>> https://ibb.co/n7MdLF1
>>>>>
>>>>> What I'm getting at is that it was once suggested to me that it is
>>>>> possible for a VM to be installed on a computer WITHOUT the
>>>>> knowledge of the user AND without a hacker having physical access to
>>>>> the machine itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once done, the 'BotMaster' could subsequently control what the user
>>>>> of the computer is shown on his/her screen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Snit appears to agree with me that it might be impossible for the
>>>>> computer user to actually KNOW whether of not they are viewing true
>>>>> or false information.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does that help you to understand?
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you know HOW one could ascertain whether or not a computer had
>>>>> been compromised in this manner?
>>>>>
>>>>> You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest
>>>>> that naively downloading and installing appropriate software would
>>>>> be a possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually
>>>>> happens when they install software onto their machines.
>>>>
>>>> https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/pub-inf_5317.pdf
>>>
>>> EXCELLENT - I will study later. Thank you.
>>>
>>> Have YOU any suggestion of HOW I can check my iMac? Are you familiar
>>> with Knock Knock?
>>
>> No. You have a habit of asking questions where you have little chance of
>> understanding the answers. You asked something general and I answered
>> something specific, that is a 'surreptitiously installed' VM (like a
>> full featured rootkit type of malware) could be detectable, in some
>> cases, by software. My linked answer was about how malware can detect
>> malware analyst's VMs from within said VMs.
>
> OK - Details here:- https://objective-see.com/products/knockknock.html

Oh but Macs don't get viruses. That's what I remember being told....

On 06/02/2022 21:26, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 08:34:03 -0000,  wrote:
>
>> On 05/02/2022 19:42, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:15:00 +0000, David Brooks
>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05/02/2022 06:17, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 22:20:31 +0000, David Brooks
>>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> When one looks at an image on a screen, how can one tell that it's
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> shown by the REAL operating system ...... or being displayed on a
>>>>>> VIRTUAL machine screen?
>>>>>
>>>>> If "one" is not an idiot, then it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>> obvious. However, if "one" is an idiot, then all bets are off.
>>>>
>>>> [....]
>>>>
>>>> So, let's be clear.
>>>>
>>>> YOU claim "it's entirely straightforward and
>>>> obvious" yet you cannot describe HOW.
>>>>
>>>> Is that right?
>>>
>>> No, and it's obvious that snit is pulling your strings.
>>
>> This has absolutely nothing to do with Snit.
>>
>>> A VM host is an application. You know when you're running it. Inside
>>> that application, a guest OS (VM) is another application. You know when
>>> you're running it. I see no possibility for confusion, but to be fair,
>>> I'm not the idiot computer user that you are.
>>>
>>> Don't take my word for it, though. VMware, the obvious leader in that
>>> space, has a free version of VMware Fusion that you can download and
>>> install on your ??-inch iMac. Fusion is your VM host application. Run
>>> that and use its capabilities to install one or more VM guests. Now run
>>> your guest. Do you see any scenario where you wouldn't be able to tell
>>> the difference between your VM guest and your host OS? I think not, but
>>> every time I think I've found the basement of your technical skills, you
>>> surprise me by digging another level down.
>>
>> Interesting, but VMWare is not available from my Apple App Store.
>> https://ibb.co/n7MdLF1
>>
>> What I'm getting at is that it was once suggested to me that it is
>> possible for a VM to be installed on a computer WITHOUT the knowledge of
>> the user AND without a hacker having physical access to the machine
>> itself.
>>
>> Once done, the 'BotMaster' could subsequently control what the user of
>> the computer is shown on his/her screen.
>>
>> Snit appears to agree with me that it might be impossible for the
>> computer user to actually KNOW whether of not they are viewing true or
>> false information.
>>
>> Does that help you to understand?
>>
>> Do you know HOW one could ascertain whether or not a computer had been
>> compromised in this manner?
>>
>> You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest
>> that naively downloading and installing appropriate software would be a
>> possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually happens
>> when they install software onto their machines.
>
> I have used (for a laugh after it was used on me for a laugh) "back
> orifice".  You can remotely control someone else's computer.  Someone
> remotely printed the entire manual for a computer game on every laser
> printer at my work overnight.  I tried the trick on a friend in Canada,
> but accidentally opened the door for anyone to control his machine.  He
> didn't like that.

You're a bit of a bad lad!!! ;-)

I'm quite fond of TeamViewer. Have you tried it?

https://www.teamviewer.com/en/

On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 22:52:17 -0000, wrote:

> On 06/02/2022 21:26, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 08:34:03 -0000, wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/02/2022 19:42, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:15:00 +0000, David Brooks
>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05/02/2022 06:17, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 22:20:31 +0000, David Brooks
>>>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When one looks at an image on a screen, how can one tell that it's
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> shown by the REAL operating system ...... or being displayed on a
>>>>>>> VIRTUAL machine screen?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If "one" is not an idiot, then it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>>> obvious. However, if "one" is an idiot, then all bets are off.
>>>>>
>>>>> [....]
>>>>>
>>>>> So, let's be clear.
>>>>>
>>>>> YOU claim "it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>> obvious" yet you cannot describe HOW.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that right?
>>>>
>>>> No, and it's obvious that snit is pulling your strings.
>>>
>>> This has absolutely nothing to do with Snit.
>>>
>>>> A VM host is an application. You know when you're running it. Inside
>>>> that application, a guest OS (VM) is another application. You know when
>>>> you're running it. I see no possibility for confusion, but to be fair,
>>>> I'm not the idiot computer user that you are.
>>>>
>>>> Don't take my word for it, though. VMware, the obvious leader in that
>>>> space, has a free version of VMware Fusion that you can download and
>>>> install on your ??-inch iMac. Fusion is your VM host application. Run
>>>> that and use its capabilities to install one or more VM guests. Now run
>>>> your guest. Do you see any scenario where you wouldn't be able to tell
>>>> the difference between your VM guest and your host OS? I think not, but
>>>> every time I think I've found the basement of your technical skills, you
>>>> surprise me by digging another level down.
>>>
>>> Interesting, but VMWare is not available from my Apple App Store.
>>> https://ibb.co/n7MdLF1
>>>
>>> What I'm getting at is that it was once suggested to me that it is
>>> possible for a VM to be installed on a computer WITHOUT the knowledge of
>>> the user AND without a hacker having physical access to the machine
>>> itself.
>>>
>>> Once done, the 'BotMaster' could subsequently control what the user of
>>> the computer is shown on his/her screen.
>>>
>>> Snit appears to agree with me that it might be impossible for the
>>> computer user to actually KNOW whether of not they are viewing true or
>>> false information.
>>>
>>> Does that help you to understand?
>>>
>>> Do you know HOW one could ascertain whether or not a computer had been
>>> compromised in this manner?
>>>
>>> You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest
>>> that naively downloading and installing appropriate software would be a
>>> possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually happens
>>> when they install software onto their machines.
>>
>> I have used (for a laugh after it was used on me for a laugh) "back
>> orifice". You can remotely control someone else's computer. Someone
>> remotely printed the entire manual for a computer game on every laser
>> printer at my work overnight. I tried the trick on a friend in Canada,
>> but accidentally opened the door for anyone to control his machine. He
>> didn't like that.
>
> You're a bit of a bad lad!!! ;-)
>
> I'm quite fond of TeamViewer. Have you tried it?
>
> https://www.teamviewer.com/en/

I used to use that at home for my 6 garage machines. I can't remember why I stopped, something went wrong with it and I changed to Remote Utilities.

On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 22:52:17 -0000, wrote:

> On 06/02/2022 21:26, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 08:34:03 -0000, wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/02/2022 19:42, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:15:00 +0000, David Brooks
>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05/02/2022 06:17, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 22:20:31 +0000, David Brooks
>>>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When one looks at an image on a screen, how can one tell that it's
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> shown by the REAL operating system ...... or being displayed on a
>>>>>>> VIRTUAL machine screen?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If "one" is not an idiot, then it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>>> obvious. However, if "one" is an idiot, then all bets are off.
>>>>>
>>>>> [....]
>>>>>
>>>>> So, let's be clear.
>>>>>
>>>>> YOU claim "it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>> obvious" yet you cannot describe HOW.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that right?
>>>>
>>>> No, and it's obvious that snit is pulling your strings.
>>>
>>> This has absolutely nothing to do with Snit.
>>>
>>>> A VM host is an application. You know when you're running it. Inside
>>>> that application, a guest OS (VM) is another application. You know when
>>>> you're running it. I see no possibility for confusion, but to be fair,
>>>> I'm not the idiot computer user that you are.
>>>>
>>>> Don't take my word for it, though. VMware, the obvious leader in that
>>>> space, has a free version of VMware Fusion that you can download and
>>>> install on your ??-inch iMac. Fusion is your VM host application. Run
>>>> that and use its capabilities to install one or more VM guests. Now run
>>>> your guest. Do you see any scenario where you wouldn't be able to tell
>>>> the difference between your VM guest and your host OS? I think not, but
>>>> every time I think I've found the basement of your technical skills, you
>>>> surprise me by digging another level down.
>>>
>>> Interesting, but VMWare is not available from my Apple App Store.
>>> https://ibb.co/n7MdLF1
>>>
>>> What I'm getting at is that it was once suggested to me that it is
>>> possible for a VM to be installed on a computer WITHOUT the knowledge of
>>> the user AND without a hacker having physical access to the machine
>>> itself.
>>>
>>> Once done, the 'BotMaster' could subsequently control what the user of
>>> the computer is shown on his/her screen.
>>>
>>> Snit appears to agree with me that it might be impossible for the
>>> computer user to actually KNOW whether of not they are viewing true or
>>> false information.
>>>
>>> Does that help you to understand?
>>>
>>> Do you know HOW one could ascertain whether or not a computer had been
>>> compromised in this manner?
>>>
>>> You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest
>>> that naively downloading and installing appropriate software would be a
>>> possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually happens
>>> when they install software onto their machines.
>>
>> I have used (for a laugh after it was used on me for a laugh) "back
>> orifice". You can remotely control someone else's computer. Someone
>> remotely printed the entire manual for a computer game on every laser
>> printer at my work overnight. I tried the trick on a friend in Canada,
>> but accidentally opened the door for anyone to control his machine. He
>> didn't like that.
>
> You're a bit of a bad lad!!! ;-)
>
> I'm quite fond of TeamViewer. Have you tried it?
>
> https://www.teamviewer.com/en/

Another one is Classroom Spy. A teacher had a weird shaped room where he couldn't see some of the pupils. He didn't tell them he could see their screens. He'd place a message on their screen to scare the shit out of them if they weren't working. He liked a good joke, he once told a boy to stop masticating (which means chewing), the boy covered his private parts and shouted "I wasn't!"

On 06/02/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 20:24:08 -0000,  wrote:
>
>> On 06/02/2022 12:46, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>> David Brooks wrote on 2/6/2022 :
>>>> On 06/02/2022 08:59, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>> on 2/6/2022, David Brooks supposed :
>>>>>> On 05/02/2022 19:42, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:15:00 +0000, David Brooks
>>>>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 05/02/2022 06:17, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 22:20:31 +0000, David Brooks
>>>>>>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When one looks at an image on a screen, how can one tell that
>>>>>>>>>> it's being
>>>>>>>>>> shown by the REAL operating system ...... or being displayed on a
>>>>>>>>>> VIRTUAL machine screen?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If "one" is not an idiot, then it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>>>>>> obvious. However, if "one" is an idiot, then all bets are off.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [....]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, let's be clear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> YOU claim "it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>>>>> obvious" yet you cannot describe HOW.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is that right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, and it's obvious that snit is pulling your strings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This has absolutely nothing to do with Snit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A VM host is an application. You know when you're running it. Inside
>>>>>>> that application, a guest OS (VM) is another application. You know
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> you're running it. I see no possibility for confusion, but to be
>>>>>>> fair,
>>>>>>> I'm not the idiot computer user that you are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't take my word for it, though. VMware, the obvious leader in
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> space, has a free version of VMware Fusion that you can download and
>>>>>>> install on your ??-inch iMac. Fusion is your VM host application.
>>>>>>> Run
>>>>>>> that and use its capabilities to install one or more VM guests. Now
>>>>>>> run
>>>>>>> your guest. Do you see any scenario where you wouldn't be able to
>>>>>>> tell
>>>>>>> the difference between your VM guest and your host OS? I think not,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> every time I think I've found the basement of your technical
>>>>>>> skills, you
>>>>>>> surprise me by digging another level down.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting, but VMWare is not available from my Apple App Store.
>>>>>> https://ibb.co/n7MdLF1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I'm getting at is that it was once suggested to me that it is
>>>>>> possible for a VM to be installed on a computer WITHOUT the
>>>>>> knowledge of the user AND without a hacker having physical access to
>>>>>> the machine itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once done, the 'BotMaster' could subsequently control what the user
>>>>>> of the computer is shown on his/her screen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Snit appears to agree with me that it might be impossible for the
>>>>>> computer user to actually KNOW whether of not they are viewing true
>>>>>> or false information.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does that help you to understand?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you know HOW one could ascertain whether or not a computer had
>>>>>> been compromised in this manner?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest
>>>>>> that naively downloading and installing appropriate software would
>>>>>> be a possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually
>>>>>> happens when they install software onto their machines.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/pub-inf_5317.pdf
>>>>
>>>> EXCELLENT - I will study later. Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> Have YOU any suggestion of HOW I can check my iMac? Are you familiar
>>>> with Knock Knock?
>>>
>>> No. You have a habit of asking questions where you have little chance of
>>> understanding the answers. You asked something general and I answered
>>> something specific, that is a 'surreptitiously installed' VM (like a
>>> full featured rootkit type of malware) could be detectable, in some
>>> cases, by software. My linked answer was about how malware can detect
>>> malware analyst's VMs from within said VMs.
>>
>> OK - Details here:- https://objective-see.com/products/knockknock.html
>
> Oh but Macs don't get viruses.  That's what I remember being told....

Sadly, I don't believe that is true. However, Apple does appear to
'monitor' ALL Apple computers connected to the Internet and can control
ALL of them whenever urgent action is required - that my belief anyway.

In article <YnYLJ.38735$sga6.36975@fx10.ams1>, David Brooks
<Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> However, Apple does appear to
> 'monitor' ALL Apple computers connected to the Internet and can control
> ALL of them whenever urgent action is required - that my belief anyway.

tin foil, aisle 4.

you must also believe the earth is flat and the moon landing was faked.

On 06/02/2022 23:00, nospam wrote:
> In article <YnYLJ.38735$sga6.36975@fx10.ams1>, David Brooks
> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>
>> However, Apple does appear to
>> 'monitor' ALL Apple computers connected to the Internet and can control
>> ALL of them whenever urgent action is required - that my belief anyway.
>
> tin foil, aisle 4.
>
> you must also believe the earth is flat and the moon landing was faked.

THIS was installed by Apple recently with *NO* input from me:-

XProtectPlistConfigData:

Version: 2155
Source: Apple
Install Date: 04/02/2022, 14:30

==========================================

Explain

On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 22:58:00 -0000, wrote:

> On 06/02/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 20:24:08 -0000, wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/02/2022 12:46, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>> David Brooks wrote on 2/6/2022 :
>>>>> On 06/02/2022 08:59, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>>> on 2/6/2022, David Brooks supposed :
>>>>>>> On 05/02/2022 19:42, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:15:00 +0000, David Brooks
>>>>>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 05/02/2022 06:17, Kelly Phillips wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 22:20:31 +0000, David Brooks
>>>>>>>>>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When one looks at an image on a screen, how can one tell that
>>>>>>>>>>> it's being
>>>>>>>>>>> shown by the REAL operating system ...... or being displayed on a
>>>>>>>>>>> VIRTUAL machine screen?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If "one" is not an idiot, then it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>>>>>>> obvious. However, if "one" is an idiot, then all bets are off.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [....]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, let's be clear.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> YOU claim "it's entirely straightforward and
>>>>>>>>> obvious" yet you cannot describe HOW.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is that right?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, and it's obvious that snit is pulling your strings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This has absolutely nothing to do with Snit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A VM host is an application. You know when you're running it. Inside
>>>>>>>> that application, a guest OS (VM) is another application. You know
>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>> you're running it. I see no possibility for confusion, but to be
>>>>>>>> fair,
>>>>>>>> I'm not the idiot computer user that you are.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don't take my word for it, though. VMware, the obvious leader in
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> space, has a free version of VMware Fusion that you can download and
>>>>>>>> install on your ??-inch iMac. Fusion is your VM host application.
>>>>>>>> Run
>>>>>>>> that and use its capabilities to install one or more VM guests. Now
>>>>>>>> run
>>>>>>>> your guest. Do you see any scenario where you wouldn't be able to
>>>>>>>> tell
>>>>>>>> the difference between your VM guest and your host OS? I think not,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> every time I think I've found the basement of your technical
>>>>>>>> skills, you
>>>>>>>> surprise me by digging another level down.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting, but VMWare is not available from my Apple App Store.
>>>>>>> https://ibb.co/n7MdLF1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What I'm getting at is that it was once suggested to me that it is
>>>>>>> possible for a VM to be installed on a computer WITHOUT the
>>>>>>> knowledge of the user AND without a hacker having physical access to
>>>>>>> the machine itself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Once done, the 'BotMaster' could subsequently control what the user
>>>>>>> of the computer is shown on his/her screen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Snit appears to agree with me that it might be impossible for the
>>>>>>> computer user to actually KNOW whether of not they are viewing true
>>>>>>> or false information.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does that help you to understand?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you know HOW one could ascertain whether or not a computer had
>>>>>>> been compromised in this manner?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest
>>>>>>> that naively downloading and installing appropriate software would
>>>>>>> be a possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually
>>>>>>> happens when they install software onto their machines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/pub-inf_5317.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> EXCELLENT - I will study later. Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have YOU any suggestion of HOW I can check my iMac? Are you familiar
>>>>> with Knock Knock?
>>>>
>>>> No. You have a habit of asking questions where you have little chance of
>>>> understanding the answers. You asked something general and I answered
>>>> something specific, that is a 'surreptitiously installed' VM (like a
>>>> full featured rootkit type of malware) could be detectable, in some
>>>> cases, by software. My linked answer was about how malware can detect
>>>> malware analyst's VMs from within said VMs.
>>>
>>> OK - Details here:- https://objective-see.com/products/knockknock.html
>>
>> Oh but Macs don't get viruses. That's what I remember being told....
>
> Sadly, I don't believe that is true. However, Apple does appear to
> 'monitor' ALL Apple computers connected to the Internet and can control
> ALL of them whenever urgent action is required - that my belief anyway.

And you don't see that as a problem?!? Your own property can be controlled by a company? Oh god....

In article <2CYLJ.25159$fIV5.11079@fx12.ams1>, David Brooks
<Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>
>
> THIS was installed by Apple recently with *NO* input from me:-

false. it was due to input from you.

> XProtectPlistConfigData:
>
> Version: 2155
> Source: Apple
> Install Date: 04/02/2022, 14:30
>
> ==========================================
>
> Explain

the reason is simple: you're stupid.

In article <op.1g60t4r1mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

> >
> > Sadly, I don't believe that is true. However, Apple does appear to
> > 'monitor' ALL Apple computers connected to the Internet and can control
> > ALL of them whenever urgent action is required - that my belief anyway.
>
> And you don't see that as a problem?!? Your own property can be controlled by a company? Oh god....

it's bullshit.

On 2022 Feb 06, David Brooks wrote
(in article <2CYLJ.25159$fIV5.11079@fx12.ams1>):

> On 06/02/2022 23:00, nospam wrote:
> > In article<YnYLJ.38735$sga6.36975@fx10.ams1>, David Brooks
> > <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >
> > > However, Apple does appear to
> > > 'monitor' ALL Apple computers connected to the Internet and can control
> > > ALL of them whenever urgent action is required - that my belief anyway.
> >
> > tin foil, aisle 4.
> >
> > you must also believe the earth is flat and the moon landing was faked.
>
> THIS was installed by Apple recently with *NO* input from me:-
>
> XProtectPlistConfigData:
>
> Version: 2155
> Source: Apple
> Install Date: 04/02/2022, 14:30
>
> ==========================================
>
> Explain

it’sa security update. you had to install it from softwre update. you’re
an idiot.

On 2022 Feb 06, Commander Kinsey wrote
(in article <op.1g60t4r1mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):

> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 22:58:00 -0000, wrote:
>
> > On 06/02/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> > > On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 20:24:08 -0000, wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 06/02/2022 12:46, FromTheRafters wrote:
> > > > > David Brooks wrote on 2/6/2022 :
> > > > > > On 06/02/2022 08:59, FromTheRafters wrote:
> > > > > > > on 2/6/2022, David Brooks supposed :
> > > > > > > > On 05/02/2022 19:42, Kelly Phillips wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:15:00 +0000, David Brooks
> > > > > > > > > <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On 05/02/2022 06:17, Kelly Phillips wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 22:20:31 +0000, David Brooks
> > > > > > > > > > > <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > When one looks at an image on a screen, how can one tell that
> > > > > > > > > > > > it's being
> > > > > > > > > > > > shown by the REAL operating system ...... or being displayed on a
> > > > > > > > > > > > VIRTUAL machine screen?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If "one" is not an idiot, then it's entirely straightforward and
> > > > > > > > > > > obvious. However, if "one" is an idiot, then all bets are off.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > [....]
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So, let's be clear.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > YOU claim "it's entirely straightforward and
> > > > > > > > > > obvious" yet you cannot describe HOW.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Is that right?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No, and it's obvious that snit is pulling your strings.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This has absolutely nothing to do with Snit.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > A VM host is an application. You know when you're running it. Inside
> > > > > > > > > that application, a guest OS (VM) is another application. You know
> > > > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > you're running it. I see no possibility for confusion, but to be
> > > > > > > > > fair,
> > > > > > > > > I'm not the idiot computer user that you are.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Don't take my word for it, though. VMware, the obvious leader in
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > space, has a free version of VMware Fusion that you can download and
> > > > > > > > > install on your ??-inch iMac. Fusion is your VM host application.
> > > > > > > > > Run
> > > > > > > > > that and use its capabilities to install one or more VM guests. Now
> > > > > > > > > run
> > > > > > > > > your guest. Do you see any scenario where you wouldn't be able to
> > > > > > > > > tell
> > > > > > > > > the difference between your VM guest and your host OS? I think not,
> > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > every time I think I've found the basement of your technical
> > > > > > > > > skills, you
> > > > > > > > > surprise me by digging another level down.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Interesting, but VMWare is not available from my Apple App Store.
> > > > > > > > https://ibb.co/n7MdLF1
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What I'm getting at is that it was once suggested to me that it is
> > > > > > > > possible for a VM to be installed on a computer WITHOUT the
> > > > > > > > knowledge of the user AND without a hacker having physical access to
> > > > > > > > the machine itself.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Once done, the 'BotMaster' could subsequently control what the user
> > > > > > > > of the computer is shown on his/her screen.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Snit appears to agree with me that it might be impossible for the
> > > > > > > > computer user to actually KNOW whether of not they are viewing true
> > > > > > > > or false information.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Does that help you to understand?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Do you know HOW one could ascertain whether or not a computer had
> > > > > > > > been compromised in this manner?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest
> > > > > > > > that naively downloading and installing appropriate software would
> > > > > > > > be a possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually
> > > > > > > > happens when they install software onto their machines.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/pub-inf_5317.pdf
> > > > > >
> > > > > > EXCELLENT - I will study later. Thank you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have YOU any suggestion of HOW I can check my iMac? Are you familiar
> > > > > > with Knock Knock?
> > > > >
> > > > > No. You have a habit of asking questions where you have little chance of
> > > > > understanding the answers. You asked something general and I answered
> > > > > something specific, that is a 'surreptitiously installed' VM (like a
> > > > > full featured rootkit type of malware) could be detectable, in some
> > > > > cases, by software. My linked answer was about how malware can detect
> > > > > malware analyst's VMs from within said VMs.
> > > >
> > > > OK - Details here:- https://objective-see.com/products/knockknock.html
> > >
> > > Oh but Macs don't get viruses. That's what I remember being told....
> >
> > Sadly, I don't believe that is true. However, Apple does appear to
> > 'monitor' ALL Apple computers connected to the Internet and can control
> > ALL of them whenever urgent action is required - that my belief anyway.
>
> And you don't see that as a problem?!? Your own property can be controlled by
> a company? Oh god....

it’dbe a problem if it were true. as he’s incredibly stupid and is, as
usual, utterly wrong, it’s not a problem.

Apple does not, and cannot possibly, monitor all Apple computers connected to
the internet. Only massively paranoid idiots would think that Apple could or
would do any such thing. Oh. Wait. Our David is a massively paranoid idiot.

David Brooks <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 06/02/2022 23:00, nospam wrote:
>> In article <YnYLJ.38735$sga6.36975@fx10.ams1>, David Brooks
>> <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> However, Apple does appear to
>>> 'monitor' ALL Apple computers connected to the Internet and can control
>>> ALL of them whenever urgent action is required - that my belief anyway.
>>
>> tin foil, aisle 4.
>>
>> you must also believe the earth is flat and the moon landing was faked.
>
>
> THIS was installed by Apple recently with *NO* input from me:-
>
> XProtectPlistConfigData:
>
> Version: 2155
> Source: Apple
> Install Date: 04/02/2022, 14:30
>
> ==========================================
>
> Explain
>

Do you ever get tired of being massively stupid? Why aren’t you ashamed
and embarrassed by posting such absurd drivel?

On 06/02/2022 17:05, Steve Carroll wrote:
> On 2022-02-06, David Brooks <Davidb_tj@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> On 06/02/2022 15:27, Steve Carroll wrote:
>>> On 2022-02-06, FromTheRafters <erratic@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> (snip)
>>>
>>>>>>> You might wonder how such a circumstance could come about. I suggest that
>>>>>>> naively downloading and installing appropriate software would be a
>>>>>>> possible route. Most computer users have no idea what actually happens
>>>>>>> when they install software onto their machines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/pub-inf_5317.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> EXCELLENT - I will study later. Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have YOU any suggestion of HOW I can check my iMac? Are you familiar with
>>>>> Knock Knock?
>>>>
>>>> No. You have a habit of asking questions where you have little chance
>>>> of understanding the answers. You asked something general and I
>>>> answered something specific, that is a 'surreptitiously installed' VM
>>>> (like a full featured rootkit type of malware) could be detectable, in
>>>> some cases, by software. My linked answer was about how malware can
>>>> detect malware analyst's VMs from within said VMs.
>>>
>>> +1
>>
>> Just suppose, Steve, that you visited a website and downloaded some
>> software onto your Apple computer and then installed it.
>>
>> Assume, in doing so, you inadvertently installed a "rootkit type of
>> malware" onto your computer. If you were still able to use your computer
>> to achieve your chosen tasks, how would YOU ever detect that you were
>> hosting a spy within, as it were?
>
> I've been over this with you, if you recall, I even pointed out the
> malware (via npm) that went undetected by ClamX's engine. I've been far
> more 'affected' by YOUR paranoia ;)

I'm not sure that I DO recall .... and I was wondering hard about "npm"
- until this morning!

https://www.theregister.com/2022/02/03/npm_malware_report/

> I don't spend a lot of time thinking about 'what ifs', but were there a
> 'what if' I was as concerned about as you seem to be, I'd spend the time
> to learn about it, as opposed to asking the same questions over and over
> from the same groups of people. As I've pointed out in the past, there
> are means available for you to detect (and be alerted to) when something
> is being installed. Are they 'Snit-level' easy? No. Short of that, you
> can run a scan after every session where you've dl'd something. If
> you're that worried, the best solution is to never keep sensitive data
> on your computer.

Spend a little time explaining. Suppose someone visits the
www.clamXav.com website and is taken in by the fancy graphics and 'Free'
offer.

They choose to 'Download' the product. Once the Installer.pkg is shown
in 'Downloads' - HOW should they check it?

Assuming they use a 'tool' for the purpose, how would an average user
have any idea what each item actually does?

OK - they decide to install ClamXav anyway. If it (malware) is capable
of making itself invisible to another AV scanner (say Malwarebytes) HOW
would the user know that anything was amiss?

I have read the response here: MID <stpolt$k15$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Much as I would have liked to have learned the necessary skills to
examine a machine myself, life was/is too short. I agree with what
LegionX/Dustin Cook has said .....

"Once that machine is booted clean and someone goes looking who
knows what they are doing - you're going to get caught. And
removed. And studied. Then automated systems will hunt you down
with little to no user interaction required. Welcome to the real
world."

The trouble is ..... *nobody has done that*! (AFAIK)

Are YOU capable of doing that?

Just to be clear, I'm not bothered one iota for myself. I care about
gullible folk who may have no idea that they are being taken-in by
snake-oil.

HTH

--
David

On 06/02/2022 23:59, nospam wrote:
> In article <op.1g60t4r1mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey
> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Sadly, I don't believe that is true. However, Apple does appear to
>>> 'monitor' ALL Apple computers connected to the Internet and can control
>>> ALL of them whenever urgent action is required - that my belief anyway.
>>
>> And you don't see that as a problem?!? Your own property can be controlled by a company? Oh god....
>
> it's bullshit.

It's true.

Like the majority of users, I'm sure, all I have done is tick the boxes,
as shown here:-

https://ibb.co/Zd7fdVy