On Sat, 05 Mar 2022 12:29:31 -0000, John Hill <yclept@outlook.com> wrote:

> Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 Mar 2022 03:00:38 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mar 3, 2022 at 3:41:32 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>> <op.1ig7zixvmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>
>>
>> Let's say I plug in two USB sticks and they're both called "USB Stick".
>> They both contain the same files exactly, I back them up from one to the
>> other, or I'm putting the same files on several to give photos to some
>> family and friends. On a PC, one is called F: and the other G:. ON a
>> mac they're both called USB Drive. How do you differentiate between the
>> two? How does the OS?
>>
>
> The OS is well able to manage it's files, folders and devices without any
> assistance from you.
>
> As for you, why not do the obvious and rename them e.g. USB Stick A and USB
> Stick B? Takes less time than it took me to give you this excellent advice.

Because in Windows I don't have to.

In article <op.1ikwmdvqmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

> > As for you, why not do the obvious and rename them e.g. USB Stick A and USB
> > Stick B? Takes less time than it took me to give you this excellent advice.
>
> Because in Windows I don't have to.

nor in mac os.

On Mar 5, 2022 at 3:36:55 PM MST, "nospam" wrote
<050320221736554500%nospam@nospam.invalid>:

> In article <op.1ikwmdvqmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey
> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>> As for you, why not do the obvious and rename them e.g. USB Stick A and USB
>>> Stick B? Takes less time than it took me to give you this excellent advice.
>>
>> Because in Windows I don't have to.
>
> nor in mac os.

It is easier in each OS, but not needed in either.

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

On Saturday, 5 March 2022 at 14:33:06 UTC, nospam wrote:
> In article <svvl3b$n3k$1...@dont-email.me>, John Hill <ycl...@outlook.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > Let's say I plug in two USB sticks and they're both called "USB Stick".
> > > They both contain the same files exactly, I back them up from one to the
> > > other, or I'm putting the same files on several to give photos to some
> > > family and friends. On a PC, one is called F: and the other G:. ON a
> > > mac they're both called USB Drive. How do you differentiate between the
> > > two? How does the OS?
> > >
> >
> > The OS is well able to manage it's files, folders and devices without any
> > assistance from you.
> yep.

Another thing is that each removable USB stick or SD card and any other drive (not sure about networked drives)

Is that on a Mac if you put a file in the trash/bin, and eject the drive, then reinsert it
the file(s) are still on the removable drive and re-appear in the trash/bin, whereas I think on a PC the files are
deleted when ejected.
Which can be a good or a bad thing I guess.

> > As for you, why not do the obvious and rename them e.g. USB Stick A and USB
> > Stick B? Takes less time than it took me to give you this excellent advice.
> that's not always possible, such as with network shares, or desirable,
> if the device must have a particular name.

On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 02:27:05 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 2, 2022 at 5:15:25 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
> <op.1iekbzqymvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 03:03:34 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 26, 2022 at 1:52:11 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>> <op.1h7tk90xmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 03:11:37 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 24, 2022 at 4:52:30 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>> <op.1h4clsdamvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:16:11 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 20, 2022 at 3:33:56 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>>>> <op.1hwuautymvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:00:55 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 20, 2022 at 8:21:46 AM MST, "Chris" wrote <sutmaa$e75$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I mainly use PCs and thought, how do Mac users manage without drive letters?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Easily.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How do you enter a path for example? How can a program refer to a file
>>>>>>>>>>> if there's no letter?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's a UNIX system so all paths are relative to root '/'. Once you get used
>>>>>>>>>> to a unified system, drive letters make no sense.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Add to that on macOS you can move and rename files even when they are open.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All paths relative to root?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Absolute paths are. You can also have relative paths.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Talk about complicating matters. This shit belongs in linux.
>>>>>
>>>>> Makes it easier:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Go to such and such address
>>>>> * Go two doors up
>>>>>
>>>>> Both of those fit with how we do things normally. Which is better depends on
>>>>> the circumstances.
>>>>
>>>> How is this showing the mac way is better?
>>>
>>> Given how Windows also uses absolute and relative paths, what makes you think
>>> it is different?
>>
>> I've just plugged in 6 USB sticks, all with the same name "USB drive".
>> They're called E:, F:, G:, H:, I:, J:. How would this work on a mac?
>
> I think the first one would be labeled "USB Drive", next one "USB Drive 1",
> then "USB Drive 2", etc. Much better to not have the same names -- that way
> you do not have to track the numbers or the letters.

So much quicker to refer to something with a single keystroke.

On Mar 10, 2022 at 9:20:37 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
<op.1iumcnw4mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

> On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 02:27:05 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 2, 2022 at 5:15:25 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>> <op.1iekbzqymvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>
>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 03:03:34 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Feb 26, 2022 at 1:52:11 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>> <op.1h7tk90xmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 03:11:37 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2022 at 4:52:30 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>>> <op.1h4clsdamvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:16:11 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Feb 20, 2022 at 3:33:56 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>>>>> <op.1hwuautymvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:00:55 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 20, 2022 at 8:21:46 AM MST, "Chris" wrote <sutmaa$e75$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I mainly use PCs and thought, how do Mac users manage without drive letters?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Easily.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How do you enter a path for example? How can a program refer to a file
>>>>>>>>>>>> if there's no letter?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's a UNIX system so all paths are relative to root '/'. Once you get used
>>>>>>>>>>> to a unified system, drive letters make no sense.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Add to that on macOS you can move and rename files even when they are open.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All paths relative to root?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Absolute paths are. You can also have relative paths.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Talk about complicating matters. This shit belongs in linux.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Makes it easier:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Go to such and such address
>>>>>> * Go two doors up
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Both of those fit with how we do things normally. Which is better depends on
>>>>>> the circumstances.
>>>>>
>>>>> How is this showing the mac way is better?
>>>>
>>>> Given how Windows also uses absolute and relative paths, what makes you think
>>>> it is different?
>>>
>>> I've just plugged in 6 USB sticks, all with the same name "USB drive".
>>> They're called E:, F:, G:, H:, I:, J:. How would this work on a mac?
>>
>> I think the first one would be labeled "USB Drive", next one "USB Drive 1",
>> then "USB Drive 2", etc. Much better to not have the same names -- that way
>> you do not have to track the numbers or the letters.
>
> So much quicker to refer to something with a single keystroke.

What keystroke refers to an entire path?

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

On Sat, 05 Mar 2022 00:27:13 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 4, 2022 at 2:56:55 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
> <op.1ii0k5qsmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>
>> On Fri, 04 Mar 2022 03:00:38 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mar 3, 2022 at 3:41:32 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>> <op.1ig7zixvmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Makes it easier:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * Go to such and such address
>>>>>>>>> * Go two doors up
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Both of those fit with how we do things normally. Which is better depends on
>>>>>>>>> the circumstances.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How is this showing the mac way is better?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given how Windows also uses absolute and relative paths, what makes you think
>>>>>>> it is different?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The extra garbage on the beginning of yours. The simplest example: a file in
>>>>>> the root directory if the main drive. c:\file.txt And on a mac?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would you save something on the root?
>>>>
>>>> For quickness, but that's irrelevant, I showed you the shortest example to
>>>> make a point.
>>>
>>> It still makes no sense to save to root. But it is even easier on macOS:
>>>
>>> \file.txt
>>>
>>> No need for silly drive letters.
>>
>> Which drive is that the root of?
>
> The boot drive.

Quicker on Windows for any other drive. E:\videos\beach babes.mp4

> I did goof, though. It should be: /file.txt

Why does Mac and Linux use the wrong slash? The forward slash is for an option. dir/s includes subdirectories for example.

> As I said, I almost never have to type such stuff. No real need for general
> use.

I keep forgetting how fluffy macs are, you hate using the keyboard.

>>> You *might* have made a point had you selected some other drive. :)
>>>
>>>>> Save it in your User folder.
>>>>
>>>> What's the obsession with a user folder?
>>>
>>> What makes you see "obsession" in understanding that user files are in the
>>> user folder?
>>
>> I own the computer, all the files are mine.
>
> True, but it makes sense to have an organization where your user files are in
> a user folder...

Bullshit. I organise my files where I want them. And on different drives. And where do you draw the line at a user file? What about recordings form my security cameras? What about settings I saved in a program?

> doing this is part of security. It is part of the reason
> macOS tends to have less malware.

Nothing to do with security whatsoever. And anyway Windows also defaults to a user folder, I just ignore it.

>>>> I save things in folder in the root like c:\pictures, c:\videos.
>>>>
>>>>> But when do you refer to it like that? I generally just say a file in the
>>>>> Documents folder or whatever.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think even a mac would respond to "a file in the documents folder".
>>>> Maybe an Alexa.
>>>
>>> I have no issue saving files in the Documents folder.
>>
>> Why use the setup the OS writer chose? I'll decide what array to organise my
>> folders in, depending if I'm a photographer, music fan, etc.
>
> You can also save things to the Pictures or Music folders... which are
> defaults, or any other folder you want.

Are those folders not inside your user folder?

>>>>>>>>> But, really, for general use when do you use either much?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Every day, many times.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Example?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When installing a program and seeing where it's going. When referring to a
>>>>>> file in a program. When saving a file.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I install a program I put it either in the Applications folder or the
>>>>> desktop.
>>>>
>>>> ROPL! You install programs to the desktop.
>>>
>>> Yes. I download them and fiddle with them there. Then I decide to keep or
>>> toss. Having a quick temporary storage is a key use of the desktop.
>>>
>>>>> No need to give more of a path.
>>>>
>>>> Kinda helps to give each application it's own folder.
>>>
>>> On macOS each app is almost always just one icon. It is, technically, a
>>> folder, but it is easy to move around. More recent versions of macOS do offer
>>> more benefits for putting apps in the Applications folder.
>>
>> So you think you're looking at a file but it's a folder, how confusing.
>
> You are looking at an application icon. And it works fine.

I prefer to know what I'm looking at.

>> What happens if you double click one?
>
> If you double click on an application icon the application opens. Of course.
> What else would you expect?

But you said it's actually a folder. Wouldn't a folder open when you double click it?

>>>>> When I look at a file in an app I
>>>>> either navigate to it in the Open dialog (visual) or use the Open Recent
>>>>> options. And with Open Recent most apps keep track even if I have moved and
>>>>> renamed the file. Windows does not generally do that.
>>>>
>>>> I like to know what drive it's on. So what do you do if two drives are named
>>>> the same?
>>>
>>> If there are multiple ones it shows the folder it is in.
>>
>> Let's say I plug in two USB sticks and they're both called "USB Stick". They
>> both contain the same files exactly, I back them up from one to the other, or
>> I'm putting the same files on several to give photos to some family and
>> friends. On a PC, one is called F: and the other G:. ON a mac they're both
>> called USB Drive. How do you differentiate between the two? How does the OS?
>
> The OS shows "USB Stick" and "USB Stick 1" (I think). The OS has built in IDs
> in he background to know what disk is what (and can use the "user" names).

Windows is better. They can all be called USB Stick without a number. Differentiation when required is done by the letter, which the user can see.

>>> Say you have an MS Word (or whatever) file open on Windows. You opened it from
>>> Recent Files and it is buried deep. How do you find where it is? How do you
>>> move it? How do you rename it?
>>
>> You have it open, you save it, it will tell you where it's going.
>
> And if you want to move or rename it?

Never heard of anyone wanting to rename an open file. You must be very disorganised. The closest I've ever done is open a file then want to make a similar one (say for another client), so I just save as a new name.

> Or if you have file A.doc open and you
> want to get to B.doc which you know is in the same folder, buried several
> folders deep?
>
> To be more specific: You have ~/Companies/Company A/Client A/Project
> A/2021/A.docx open. How do you get to ~/Companies/Company A/Client A/Project
> A/2021/B.docx quickly?

If I right click a recent file, I can choose "open location". Now I have the ~/Companies/Company A/Client A/Project A/2021 folder open.

In article <op.1iwxdi02mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

>
> Why does Mac and Linux use the wrong slash? The forward slash is for an
> option. dir/s includes subdirectories for example.

unix predates windows, thus by your metric, windows got it wrong, for
both path delimiters and for options.

> >
> > The OS shows "USB Stick" and "USB Stick 1" (I think). The OS has built in
> > IDs
> > in he background to know what disk is what (and can use the "user" names).
>
> Windows is better. They can all be called USB Stick without a number.
> Differentiation when required is done by the letter, which the user can see.

they *are* called usb stick without a number.

*internally*, they are differentiated by guid, with the suffixed number
only because the mount point is the same. the user never sees any of
that, unless they deliberately look for it.

again, using your metric, mac is better.

On Mar 12, 2022 at 3:13:56 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
<op.1iwxdi02mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

> On Sat, 05 Mar 2022 00:27:13 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 4, 2022 at 2:56:55 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>> <op.1ii0k5qsmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>
>>> On Fri, 04 Mar 2022 03:00:38 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mar 3, 2022 at 3:41:32 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>> <op.1ig7zixvmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Makes it easier:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> * Go to such and such address
>>>>>>>>>> * Go two doors up
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Both of those fit with how we do things normally. Which is better depends on
>>>>>>>>>> the circumstances.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How is this showing the mac way is better?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Given how Windows also uses absolute and relative paths, what makes you think
>>>>>>>> it is different?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The extra garbage on the beginning of yours. The simplest example: a file in
>>>>>>> the root directory if the main drive. c:\file.txt And on a mac?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why would you save something on the root?
>>>>>
>>>>> For quickness, but that's irrelevant, I showed you the shortest example to
>>>>> make a point.
>>>>
>>>> It still makes no sense to save to root. But it is even easier on macOS:
>>>>
>>>> \file.txt
>>>>
>>>> No need for silly drive letters.
>>>
>>> Which drive is that the root of?
>>
>> The boot drive.
>
> Quicker on Windows for any other drive. E:\videos\beach babes.mp4

Your boot drive is your E: drive? And how is that faster than ~/videos/beach
babes.mp4

>> I did goof, though. It should be: /file.txt
>
> Why does Mac and Linux use the wrong slash?

What makes you think it is wrong, other than your rules?

> The forward slash is for an option. dir/s includes subdirectories for example.

That is how it works on Windows. Not elsewhere.

>
>> As I said, I almost never have to type such stuff. No real need for general
>> use.
>
> I keep forgetting how fluffy macs are, you hate using the keyboard.

When do you have to type it? And if you are going to type it why worry about
having to open two folders?

>>>> You *might* have made a point had you selected some other drive. :)
>>>>
>>>>>> Save it in your User folder.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's the obsession with a user folder?
>>>>
>>>> What makes you see "obsession" in understanding that user files are in the
>>>> user folder?
>>>
>>> I own the computer, all the files are mine.
>>
>> True, but it makes sense to have an organization where your user files are in
>> a user folder...
>
> Bullshit. I organise my files where I want them.

As do I... I just *want* my organization to work well for me and to allow my
system to be multiuser and less prone to malware.

> And on different drives.

I use different drives.

> And where do you draw the line at a user file?

Not sure what you mean by this.

> What about recordings form my security cameras?

I tend to save those in Documents but Movies would also make sense.

> What about settings I saved in a program?

~/Library/Preferences. Of course.

One thing I miss about Classic Mac was being able to save those files (plist
files in macOS terms) and have different sets of settings. Worked in pretty
much any app on Classic Mac. Does not work on modern macOS.

>> doing this is part of security. It is part of the reason
>> macOS tends to have less malware.
>
> Nothing to do with security whatsoever.

Sure it does. It is a key reason for it.

> And anyway Windows also defaults to a user folder, I just ignore it.

You create your own rules. Sure. And it is your system -- enjoy. Just do not
expect others to follow your rules.

>
>>>>> I save things in folder in the root like c:\pictures, c:\videos.
>>>>>
>>>>>> But when do you refer to it like that? I generally just say a file in the
>>>>>> Documents folder or whatever.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think even a mac would respond to "a file in the documents folder".
>>>>> Maybe an Alexa.
>>>>
>>>> I have no issue saving files in the Documents folder.
>>>
>>> Why use the setup the OS writer chose? I'll decide what array to organise my
>>> folders in, depending if I'm a photographer, music fan, etc.
>>
>> You can also save things to the Pictures or Music folders... which are
>> defaults, or any other folder you want.
>
> Are those folders not inside your user folder?

Yes.

>
>>>>>>>>>> But, really, for general use when do you use either much?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Every day, many times.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Example?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When installing a program and seeing where it's going. When referring to a
>>>>>>> file in a program. When saving a file.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I install a program I put it either in the Applications folder or the
>>>>>> desktop.
>>>>>
>>>>> ROPL! You install programs to the desktop.
>>>>
>>>> Yes. I download them and fiddle with them there. Then I decide to keep or
>>>> toss. Having a quick temporary storage is a key use of the desktop.
>>>>
>>>>>> No need to give more of a path.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kinda helps to give each application it's own folder.
>>>>
>>>> On macOS each app is almost always just one icon. It is, technically, a
>>>> folder, but it is easy to move around. More recent versions of macOS do offer
>>>> more benefits for putting apps in the Applications folder.
>>>
>>> So you think you're looking at a file but it's a folder, how confusing.
>>
>> You are looking at an application icon. And it works fine.
>
> I prefer to know what I'm looking at.

As opposed to?
>
>>> What happens if you double click one?
>>
>> If you double click on an application icon the application opens. Of course.
>> What else would you expect?
>
> But you said it's actually a folder. Wouldn't a folder open when you double
> click it?

Why would you want to open a folder when you launch an app? You can dig into
it if you want but as the norm? What is the value? Why make it so you have to
dig to find the EXE, and figure out which one, just to launch an app? Seems to
get around that weakness you would need to create some extra menu and maybe
even have to place it on the taskbar to deal with this challenge. Oh. Windows
does that.

>>>>>> When I look at a file in an app I
>>>>>> either navigate to it in the Open dialog (visual) or use the Open Recent
>>>>>> options. And with Open Recent most apps keep track even if I have moved and
>>>>>> renamed the file. Windows does not generally do that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I like to know what drive it's on. So what do you do if two drives are named
>>>>> the same?
>>>>
>>>> If there are multiple ones it shows the folder it is in.
>>>
>>> Let's say I plug in two USB sticks and they're both called "USB Stick". They
>>> both contain the same files exactly, I back them up from one to the other, or
>>> I'm putting the same files on several to give photos to some family and
>>> friends. On a PC, one is called F: and the other G:. ON a mac they're both
>>> called USB Drive. How do you differentiate between the two? How does the OS?
>>
>> The OS shows "USB Stick" and "USB Stick 1" (I think). The OS has built in IDs
>> in he background to know what disk is what (and can use the "user" names).
>
> Windows is better. They can all be called USB Stick without a number.
> Differentiation when required is done by the letter, which the user can see.

In article <bg7XJ.80768$yi_7.45484@fx39.iad>, Snit
<brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> One thing I miss about Classic Mac was being able to save those files (plist
> files in macOS terms) and have different sets of settings. Worked in pretty
> much any app on Classic Mac. Does not work on modern macOS.

that only worked if the app explicitly supported multiple preferences,
which can be done on modern mac os, but it doesn't because there is
little reason to do so.

On Mar 12, 2022 at 3:40:33 PM MST, "nospam" wrote
<120320221740330767%nospam@nospam.invalid>:

> In article <bg7XJ.80768$yi_7.45484@fx39.iad>, Snit
> <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> One thing I miss about Classic Mac was being able to save those files (plist
>> files in macOS terms) and have different sets of settings. Worked in pretty
>> much any app on Classic Mac. Does not work on modern macOS.
>
> that only worked if the app explicitly supported multiple preferences,
> which can be done on modern mac os, but it doesn't because there is
> little reason to do so.

It worked on most apps in Classic Mac (were there any it did not?)... does it
work for any in modern macOS? I know *I* liked the feature, even if you do not
see much value in it.

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

In article <hH9XJ.125388$H_t7.4934@fx40.iad>, Snit
<brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> >> One thing I miss about Classic Mac was being able to save those files
> >> (plist
> >> files in macOS terms) and have different sets of settings. Worked in pretty
> >> much any app on Classic Mac. Does not work on modern macOS.
> >
> > that only worked if the app explicitly supported multiple preferences,
> > which can be done on modern mac os, but it doesn't because there is
> > little reason to do so.
>
> It worked on most apps in Classic Mac (were there any it did not?)... does it
> work for any in modern macOS? I know *I* liked the feature, even if you do not
> see much value in it.

you are once again making incorrect assumptions. i used that regularly
with eudora.

the point is that it is *not* part of mac os, classic or x. an app must
explicitly support swapping preferences. a few apps did, but most did
not.

it can easily be done in mac os x, but it's not something many people
used (or even knew about) in classic mac os, so developers don't
bother. adding to that, app preferences on mac os x are inside
~/library, which is normally invisible.

i vaguely recall eudora on mac os x continued to support it, likely
because it was already implemented in the classic version and remained
in the carbon port.

On Mar 12, 2022 at 5:08:42 PM MST, "nospam" wrote
<120320221908421141%nospam@nospam.invalid>:

> In article <hH9XJ.125388$H_t7.4934@fx40.iad>, Snit
> <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>> One thing I miss about Classic Mac was being able to save those files
>>>> (plist
>>>> files in macOS terms) and have different sets of settings. Worked in pretty
>>>> much any app on Classic Mac. Does not work on modern macOS.
>>>
>>> that only worked if the app explicitly supported multiple preferences,
>>> which can be done on modern mac os, but it doesn't because there is
>>> little reason to do so.
>>
>> It worked on most apps in Classic Mac (were there any it did not?)... does it
>> work for any in modern macOS? I know *I* liked the feature, even if you do not
>> see much value in it.
>
> you are once again making incorrect assumptions. i used that regularly
> with eudora.

It is not an assumption you said there is little reason to use it. Even if you
see little reason, I see more and miss the feature.

> the point is that it is *not* part of mac os, classic or x. an app must
> explicitly support swapping preferences. a few apps did, but most did
> not.

Which did not?

> it can easily be done in mac os x, but it's not something many people
> used (or even knew about) in classic mac os, so developers don't
> bother. adding to that, app preferences on mac os x are inside
> ~/library, which is normally invisible.
>
> i vaguely recall eudora on mac os x continued to support it, likely
> because it was already implemented in the classic version and remained
> in the carbon port.

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 04:59:09 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 10, 2022 at 9:20:37 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
> <op.1iumcnw4mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>
>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 02:27:05 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mar 2, 2022 at 5:15:25 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>> <op.1iekbzqymvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 03:03:34 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 26, 2022 at 1:52:11 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>> <op.1h7tk90xmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 03:11:37 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2022 at 4:52:30 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>>>> <op.1h4clsdamvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:16:11 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 20, 2022 at 3:33:56 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>>>>>> <op.1hwuautymvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:00:55 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 20, 2022 at 8:21:46 AM MST, "Chris" wrote <sutmaa$e75$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I mainly use PCs and thought, how do Mac users manage without drive letters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Easily.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How do you enter a path for example? How can a program refer to a file
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if there's no letter?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a UNIX system so all paths are relative to root '/'. Once you get used
>>>>>>>>>>>> to a unified system, drive letters make no sense.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Add to that on macOS you can move and rename files even when they are open.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All paths relative to root?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Absolute paths are. You can also have relative paths.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Talk about complicating matters. This shit belongs in linux.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Makes it easier:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Go to such and such address
>>>>>>> * Go two doors up
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Both of those fit with how we do things normally. Which is better depends on
>>>>>>> the circumstances.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How is this showing the mac way is better?
>>>>>
>>>>> Given how Windows also uses absolute and relative paths, what makes you think
>>>>> it is different?
>>>>
>>>> I've just plugged in 6 USB sticks, all with the same name "USB drive".
>>>> They're called E:, F:, G:, H:, I:, J:. How would this work on a mac?
>>>
>>> I think the first one would be labeled "USB Drive", next one "USB Drive 1",
>>> then "USB Drive 2", etc. Much better to not have the same names -- that way
>>> you do not have to track the numbers or the letters.
>>
>> So much quicker to refer to something with a single keystroke.
>
> What keystroke refers to an entire path?

I meant to refer to a drive, for example "F".

On Mar 14, 2022 at 4:01:51 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
<op.1i0oxdylmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 04:59:09 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 10, 2022 at 9:20:37 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>> <op.1iumcnw4mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>
>>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 02:27:05 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mar 2, 2022 at 5:15:25 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>> <op.1iekbzqymvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 03:03:34 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 26, 2022 at 1:52:11 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>>> <op.1h7tk90xmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 03:11:37 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2022 at 4:52:30 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>>>>> <op.1h4clsdamvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:16:11 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 20, 2022 at 3:33:56 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>>>>>>> <op.1hwuautymvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:00:55 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 20, 2022 at 8:21:46 AM MST, "Chris" wrote <sutmaa$e75$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I mainly use PCs and thought, how do Mac users manage without drive letters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Easily.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How do you enter a path for example? How can a program refer to a file
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if there's no letter?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a UNIX system so all paths are relative to root '/'. Once you get used
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to a unified system, drive letters make no sense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Add to that on macOS you can move and rename files even when they are open.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> All paths relative to root?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Absolute paths are. You can also have relative paths.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Talk about complicating matters. This shit belongs in linux.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Makes it easier:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * Go to such and such address
>>>>>>>> * Go two doors up
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Both of those fit with how we do things normally. Which is better depends on
>>>>>>>> the circumstances.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How is this showing the mac way is better?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given how Windows also uses absolute and relative paths, what makes you think
>>>>>> it is different?
>>>>>
>>>>> I've just plugged in 6 USB sticks, all with the same name "USB drive".
>>>>> They're called E:, F:, G:, H:, I:, J:. How would this work on a mac?
>>>>
>>>> I think the first one would be labeled "USB Drive", next one "USB Drive 1",
>>>> then "USB Drive 2", etc. Much better to not have the same names -- that way
>>>> you do not have to track the numbers or the letters.
>>>
>>> So much quicker to refer to something with a single keystroke.
>>
>> What keystroke refers to an entire path?
>
> I meant to refer to a drive, for example "F".

Which drive is that?

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:20:23 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 12, 2022 at 3:13:56 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
> <op.1iwxdi02mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>
>> On Sat, 05 Mar 2022 00:27:13 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mar 4, 2022 at 2:56:55 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>> <op.1ii0k5qsmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 04 Mar 2022 03:00:38 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 3, 2022 at 3:41:32 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>> <op.1ig7zixvmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Makes it easier:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> * Go to such and such address
>>>>>>>>>>> * Go two doors up
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Both of those fit with how we do things normally. Which is better depends on
>>>>>>>>>>> the circumstances.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How is this showing the mac way is better?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Given how Windows also uses absolute and relative paths, what makes you think
>>>>>>>>> it is different?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The extra garbage on the beginning of yours. The simplest example: a file in
>>>>>>>> the root directory if the main drive. c:\file.txt And on a mac?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why would you save something on the root?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For quickness, but that's irrelevant, I showed you the shortest example to
>>>>>> make a point.
>>>>>
>>>>> It still makes no sense to save to root. But it is even easier on macOS:
>>>>>
>>>>> \file.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> No need for silly drive letters.
>>>>
>>>> Which drive is that the root of?
>>>
>>> The boot drive.
>>
>> Quicker on Windows for any other drive. E:\videos\beach babes.mp4
>
> Your boot drive is your E: drive?

No, the E: drive is the large rust spinner for videos and TV.

> And how is that faster than ~/videos/beach babes.mp4

What's a tilde again? Is that your user folder? Well I don't want them in there. My user folder is on the boot drive and that's too small for terabytes of TV.

>>> I did goof, though. It should be: /file.txt
>>
>> Why does Mac and Linux use the wrong slash?
>
> What makes you think it is wrong, other than your rules?
>
>> The forward slash is for an option. dir/s includes subdirectories for example.
>
> That is how it works on Windows. Not elsewhere.

What do use for an option in a command? What happens if you want to write a date in a filename?

>>> As I said, I almost never have to type such stuff. No real need for general
>>> use.
>>
>> I keep forgetting how fluffy macs are, you hate using the keyboard.
>
> When do you have to type it?

Plenty times. I prefer having both options.

> And if you are going to type it why worry about
> having to open two folders?

What?

>>>>> You *might* have made a point had you selected some other drive. :)
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Save it in your User folder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's the obsession with a user folder?
>>>>>
>>>>> What makes you see "obsession" in understanding that user files are in the
>>>>> user folder?
>>>>
>>>> I own the computer, all the files are mine.
>>>
>>> True, but it makes sense to have an organization where your user files are in
>>> a user folder...
>>
>> Bullshit. I organise my files where I want them.
>
> As do I... I just *want* my organization to work well for me

Chances are the way you organise things isn't the same way the OS programmers do.

> and to allow my system to be multiuser and less prone to malware.

Malware doesn't find a problem with files in user folders.

>> And on different drives.
>
> I use different drives.
>
>> And where do you draw the line at a user file?
>
> Not sure what you mean by this.

What files do you refer to as user files?

>> What about recordings form my security cameras?
>
> I tend to save those in Documents but Movies would also make sense.

They're not either.

>> What about settings I saved in a program?
>
> ~/Library/Preferences. Of course.

Why would that be of course? What happened to the good old days when preferences were in the program's folder? Even my computer game has some stuff in my user folder and some stuff in it's own folder.

> One thing I miss about Classic Mac was being able to save those files (plist
> files in macOS terms) and have different sets of settings. Worked in pretty
> much any app on Classic Mac. Does not work on modern macOS.

Not sure what you're talking about.

>>> doing this is part of security. It is part of the reason
>>> macOS tends to have less malware.
>>
>> Nothing to do with security whatsoever.
>
> Sure it does. It is a key reason for it.
>
>> And anyway Windows also defaults to a user folder, I just ignore it.
>
> You create your own rules. Sure. And it is your system -- enjoy. Just do not
> expect others to follow your rules.

I don't expect anyone to organise anything the same way, which is why having the OS try to push you into one way is ridiculous.

>>>>>> I save things in folder in the root like c:\pictures, c:\videos.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But when do you refer to it like that? I generally just say a file in the
>>>>>>> Documents folder or whatever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think even a mac would respond to "a file in the documents folder".
>>>>>> Maybe an Alexa.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no issue saving files in the Documents folder.
>>>>
>>>> Why use the setup the OS writer chose? I'll decide what array to organise my
>>>> folders in, depending if I'm a photographer, music fan, etc.
>>>
>>> You can also save things to the Pictures or Music folders... which are
>>> defaults, or any other folder you want.
>>
>> Are those folders not inside your user folder?
>
> Yes.

My videos are on a different drive to my pictures.

>>>>>>>>>>> But, really, for general use when do you use either much?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Every day, many times.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Example?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When installing a program and seeing where it's going. When referring to a
>>>>>>>> file in a program. When saving a file.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I install a program I put it either in the Applications folder or the
>>>>>>> desktop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ROPL! You install programs to the desktop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. I download them and fiddle with them there. Then I decide to keep or
>>>>> toss. Having a quick temporary storage is a key use of the desktop.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> No need to give more of a path.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kinda helps to give each application it's own folder.
>>>>>
>>>>> On macOS each app is almost always just one icon. It is, technically, a
>>>>> folder, but it is easy to move around. More recent versions of macOS do offer
>>>>> more benefits for putting apps in the Applications folder.
>>>>
>>>> So you think you're looking at a file but it's a folder, how confusing.
>>>
>>> You are looking at an application icon. And it works fine.
>>
>> I prefer to know what I'm looking at.
>
> As opposed to?

What's sneaking up behind me.

>>>> What happens if you double click one?
>>>
>>> If you double click on an application icon the application opens. Of course.
>>> What else would you expect?
>>
>> But you said it's actually a folder. Wouldn't a folder open when you double
>> click it?
>
> Why would you want to open a folder when you launch an app? You can dig into
> it if you want but as the norm? What is the value? Why make it so you have to
> dig to find the EXE, and figure out which one, just to launch an app? Seems to
> get around that weakness you would need to create some extra menu and maybe
> even have to place it on the taskbar to deal with this challenge. Oh. Windows
> does that.

On Mar 18, 2022 at 11:26:14 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
<op.1i8n50gnmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:20:23 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 12, 2022 at 3:13:56 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>> <op.1iwxdi02mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>
>>> On Sat, 05 Mar 2022 00:27:13 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mar 4, 2022 at 2:56:55 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>> <op.1ii0k5qsmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 04 Mar 2022 03:00:38 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 3, 2022 at 3:41:32 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>>> <op.1ig7zixvmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Makes it easier:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> * Go to such and such address
>>>>>>>>>>>> * Go two doors up
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Both of those fit with how we do things normally. Which is better depends on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the circumstances.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How is this showing the mac way is better?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Given how Windows also uses absolute and relative paths, what makes you think
>>>>>>>>>> it is different?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The extra garbage on the beginning of yours. The simplest example: a file in
>>>>>>>>> the root directory if the main drive. c:\file.txt And on a mac?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why would you save something on the root?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For quickness, but that's irrelevant, I showed you the shortest example to
>>>>>>> make a point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It still makes no sense to save to root. But it is even easier on macOS:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> \file.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No need for silly drive letters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which drive is that the root of?
>>>>
>>>> The boot drive.
>>>
>>> Quicker on Windows for any other drive. E:\videos\beach babes.mp4
>>
>> Your boot drive is your E: drive?
>
> No, the E: drive is the large rust spinner for videos and TV.

But above you spoke of it as the boot drive.

>> And how is that faster than ~/videos/beach babes.mp4
>
> What's a tilde again? Is that your user folder?

Yes, though I admit it is apparently uncommon enough knowledge someone
trolling me years ago said it was "the hard drive only". (Warning: While that
is a fact I suspect this will trigger someone who trolls me).

> Well I don't want them in there. My user folder is on the boot drive and
> that's too small for terabytes of TV.

I also use an external drive. It is a 3 TB drive I have creatively named
"Other 3". I literally have never typed the path to it. No need. I have,
perhaps, dragged a file to the command line to get the path. Maybe. Not even
sure if I have done that with any file on that drive.

>>>> I did goof, though. It should be: /file.txt
>>>
>>> Why does Mac and Linux use the wrong slash?
>>
>> What makes you think it is wrong, other than your rules?
>>
>>> The forward slash is for an option. dir/s includes subdirectories for example.
>>
>> That is how it works on Windows. Not elsewhere.
>
> What do use for an option in a command?

Something like:

ls -a

For ls (list) with the option of "all". Lots of other options. Here is the man
(manual) page for it -- maybe even up to date, but maybe not. Either way you
get the idea:

https://ss64.com/osx/ls.html

> What happens if you want to write a date in a filename?

Here is how I do that:

https://youtu.be/jnssFYSpPUk

>>>> As I said, I almost never have to type such stuff. No real need for general
>>>> use.
>>>
>>> I keep forgetting how fluffy macs are, you hate using the keyboard.
>>
>> When do you have to type it?
>
> Plenty times. I prefer having both options.

I have options... but there is rarely a time I have to.

>> And if you are going to type it why worry about
>> having to open two folders?
>
> What?

If I am in my terminal I just drag the file. Why type when it will do it for
me?

https://youtu.be/XT061T6VZ2I

>>>>>> You *might* have made a point had you selected some other drive. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Save it in your User folder.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's the obsession with a user folder?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What makes you see "obsession" in understanding that user files are in the
>>>>>> user folder?
>>>>>
>>>>> I own the computer, all the files are mine.
>>>>
>>>> True, but it makes sense to have an organization where your user files are in
>>>> a user folder...
>>>
>>> Bullshit. I organise my files where I want them.
>>
>> As do I... I just *want* my organization to work well for me
>
> Chances are the way you organise things isn't the same way the OS programmers
> do.

Nor does it need to be.

>> and to allow my system to be multiuser and less prone to malware.
>
> Malware doesn't find a problem with files in user folders.

Weak permission structures are a security risk.
>
>>> And on different drives.
>>
>> I use different drives.
>>
>>> And where do you draw the line at a user file?
>>
>> Not sure what you mean by this.
>
> What files do you refer to as user files?

Generally the ones in my user folder (as well as the external drive).

>>> What about recordings form my security cameras?
>>
>> I tend to save those in Documents but Movies would also make sense.
>
> They're not either.

What are they?

>
>>> What about settings I saved in a program?
>>
>> ~/Library/Preferences. Of course.
>
> Why would that be of course?

Because preferences going into the Preferences folder makes sense.

> What happened to the good old days when preferences were in the program's
> folder?

Since early macOS they have been in the Preferences folder. That way if you
delete the app and re-install your preferences remain.

> Even my computer game has some stuff in my user folder and some stuff in it's
> own folder.
>
>> One thing I miss about Classic Mac was being able to save those files (plist
>> files in macOS terms) and have different sets of settings. Worked in pretty
>> much any app on Classic Mac. Does not work on modern macOS.
>
> Not sure what you're talking about.

You used to be able to use the Preferences file as a launcher... and it would
ignore the system Preferences and use the one you opened it with. Here, a
video I made for nospam to show him:

https://youtu.be/IouS4iDvsOQ

I was one of three users on the planet that knew of that feature and made use
of it, but I do still miss it. :)

>
>>>> doing this is part of security. It is part of the reason
>>>> macOS tends to have less malware.
>>>
>>> Nothing to do with security whatsoever.
>>
>> Sure it does. It is a key reason for it.
>>
>>> And anyway Windows also defaults to a user folder, I just ignore it.
>>
>> You create your own rules. Sure. And it is your system -- enjoy. Just do not
>> expect others to follow your rules.
>
> I don't expect anyone to organise anything the same way, which is why having
> the OS try to push you into one way is ridiculous.

OK, as long as you do not try to push your method onto me.

>
>>>>>>> I save things in folder in the root like c:\pictures, c:\videos.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But when do you refer to it like that? I generally just say a file in the
>>>>>>>> Documents folder or whatever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think even a mac would respond to "a file in the documents folder".
>>>>>>> Maybe an Alexa.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no issue saving files in the Documents folder.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why use the setup the OS writer chose? I'll decide what array to organise my
>>>>> folders in, depending if I'm a photographer, music fan, etc.
>>>>
>>>> You can also save things to the Pictures or Music folders... which are
>>>> defaults, or any other folder you want.
>>>
>>> Are those folders not inside your user folder?
>>
>> Yes.
>
> My videos are on a different drive to my pictures.

On Friday, 18 March 2022 at 18:26:18 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:20:23 -0000, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 12, 2022 at 3:13:56 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
> > <op.1iwxd...@ryzen.lan>:
> >
> >> On Sat, 05 Mar 2022 00:27:13 -0000, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Mar 4, 2022 at 2:56:55 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
> >>> <op.1ii0k...@ryzen.lan>:
> >>>
> >>>> On Fri, 04 Mar 2022 03:00:38 -0000, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Mar 3, 2022 at 3:41:32 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
> >>>>> <op.1ig7z...@ryzen.lan>:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Makes it easier:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> * Go to such and such address
> >>>>>>>>>>> * Go two doors up
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Both of those fit with how we do things normally. Which is better depends on
> >>>>>>>>>>> the circumstances.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> How is this showing the mac way is better?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Given how Windows also uses absolute and relative paths, what makes you think
> >>>>>>>>> it is different?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The extra garbage on the beginning of yours. The simplest example: a file in
> >>>>>>>> the root directory if the main drive. c:\file.txt And on a mac?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Why would you save something on the root?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> For quickness, but that's irrelevant, I showed you the shortest example to
> >>>>>> make a point.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It still makes no sense to save to root. But it is even easier on macOS:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> \file.txt
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No need for silly drive letters.
> >>>>
> >>>> Which drive is that the root of?
> >>>
> >>> The boot drive.
> >>
> >> Quicker on Windows for any other drive. E:\videos\beach babes.mp4
> >
> > Your boot drive is your E: drive?
>
> No, the E: drive is the large rust spinner for videos and TV.

Why do you have to call it the E drive.
I have a 3TB drive for TV and Films, and a 3TB drive for Music and home made videos. Just USB3 drives
Then there's my backups drives, I never refer to them by one letter of the alphabet

why do you need to refer to a drive as E ?

I cna understand you labeling your shoes L & R but not drives.

>
> > And how is that faster than ~/videos/beach babes.mp4
>
> What's a tilde again? Is that your user folder? Well I don't want them in there. My user folder is on the boot drive and that's too small for terabytes of TV.

> > You create your own rules. Sure. And it is your system -- enjoy. Just do not
> > expect others to follow your rules.
>
> I don't expect anyone to organise anything the same way, which is why having the OS try to push you into one way is ridiculous.

I think it helps to have such things like a download folder I even have an upload folder.
It's handy too that when typing a letter it prompts to save it in the documents folder rather than music or movies folder.
I can always change it though if I want to I saved a picture in the movies folder last night because it was a picture of a band
andn I wanted to represent that band by the picture on facebook.

>
> >>>>>> I save things in folder in the root like c:\pictures, c:\videos.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But when do you refer to it like that? I generally just say a file in the
> >>>>>>> Documents folder or whatever.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't think even a mac would respond to "a file in the documents folder".
> >>>>>> Maybe an Alexa.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have no issue saving files in the Documents folder.
> >>>>
> >>>> Why use the setup the OS writer chose? I'll decide what array to organise my
> >>>> folders in, depending if I'm a photographer, music fan, etc.
> >>>
> >>> You can also save things to the Pictures or Music folders... which are
> >>> defaults, or any other folder you want.
> >>
> >> Are those folders not inside your user folder?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> My videos are on a different drive to my pictures.

I don't keep such things permanently on my main drive, I archive them off on to seperate archive discs.
Then when I need space on my main drive I can delete them knowing that they are on my archive drives.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> But, really, for general use when do you use either much?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Every day, many times.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Example?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> When installing a program and seeing where it's going. When referring to a
> >>>>>>>> file in a program. When saving a file.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> When I install a program I put it either in the Applications folder or the
> >>>>>>> desktop.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ROPL! You install programs to the desktop.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes. I download them and fiddle with them there. Then I decide to keep or
> >>>>> toss. Having a quick temporary storage is a key use of the desktop.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> No need to give more of a path.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Kinda helps to give each application it's own folder.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On macOS each app is almost always just one icon. It is, technically, a
> >>>>> folder, but it is easy to move around. More recent versions of macOS do offer
> >>>>> more benefits for putting apps in the Applications folder.
> >>>>
> >>>> So you think you're looking at a file but it's a folder, how confusing.
> >>>
> >>> You are looking at an application icon. And it works fine.
> >>
> >> I prefer to know what I'm looking at.
> >
> > As opposed to?
>
> What's sneaking up behind me.

My computers usually in front of me, I find that if it's behind me it's harder to use.

>
> >>>> What happens if you double click one?
> >>>
> >>> If you double click on an application icon the application opens. Of course.
> >>> What else would you expect?
> >>
> >> But you said it's actually a folder. Wouldn't a folder open when you double
> >> click it?
> >
> > Why would you want to open a folder when you launch an app? You can dig into
> > it if you want but as the norm? What is the value? Why make it so you have to
> > dig to find the EXE, and figure out which one, just to launch an app? Seems to
> > get around that weakness you would need to create some extra menu and maybe
> > even have to place it on the taskbar to deal with this challenge. Oh. Windows
> > does that.
>
> The application is not one file, it's a collection of files, inside a folder. So when I double click that folder, I expect it to open, not launch something inside it.

Refering to the Word app.
But on a Mac it doesn't look like a folder , it is just an icon that looks like an app and behaves like one,
unless you right click it and do "show package contents", then it acts like a folder, which contains the resources,
plugins and other stuff relating to the Word app.
I guess your PC keeps the Word plugins in the beach babes folder.

> > I was wrong. Nospam is correct they would just show their names. No added
> > numbers. But, really, why name them the same?
>
> Say I have 20 USB sticks to give to a class. I put the same things on them all at once. I plug them all in at once. Why make up 20 names?
>
> >>>>> Say you have an MS Word (or whatever) file open on Windows. You opened it from
> >>>>> Recent Files and it is buried deep. How do you find where it is? How do you
> >>>>> move it? How do you rename it?
> >>>>
> >>>> You have it open, you save it, it will tell you where it's going.
> >>>
> >>> And if you want to move or rename it?
> >>
> >> Never heard of anyone wanting to rename an open file.
> >
> > Not on systems where they cannot do so! But what if there is a typo? What if
> > you decide it is in the wrong place? On Windows you have to do a little dance
> > of closing it, renaming or moving, the re-opening it. And then the Recent
> > files info often is broken.
>
> I rename it when it isn't open. I'd see the typo when I was about to open it.

On 21 Mar 2022 at 13:57:16 GMT, whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, 18 March 2022 at 18:26:18 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:

>> No, the E: drive is the large rust spinner for videos and TV.
>
> Why do you have to call it the E drive.

On the Mac you don't have drives, you have volumes. Drives are the physical
hardware which (in the case of floppies and CD/DVD drives) may or may not
contain a volume. Or it may contain several volumes, as indeed may any
SSD/hard disk you plug in.

On the Mac what counts are volumes, which have names. So if I have a script
that copies a file from the volume named Wiggy, I can refer to the file in the
script as Wiggy/myfile.txt. And so on a machine with two floppy drives, I can
put the volume (a given floppy named Wiggy) in either drive and - guess what -
the fucking script STILL WORKS. The Mac, y'see, works with what is important
(the volume and its name) and not with what is not important (the physical
drive and how it happens to be connected).

It was the same when the Mac II came out in 1986 or whenever it was. It had
slots. But unlike PCs and DOS, you didn't have to know which slot a card was
in or anything about its interrupt vectors, you just plugged it into any slot
and rebooted AND IT ALL WORKED. Because it had firmware on the card that was
run at boot time.

This is a rather more sophisticated approach.

The bollocks approach of drive letters stems from the rubbish that was the
operating system on IBM mainframes from yesteryear, when your program read
from / wrote to mag tapes. The drives were given id's (much like DOS drive
letters), and when run, your program would read from whatever tape was mounted
there. So you had to hope that the machine operator, when prompted, had loaded
your tape on the correct tape.

Magtapes with readbable labels that could be mounted on any drive and which
would be referred to by the user's program by name, rather than by drive, came
later.

On 21 Mar 2022 at 13:57:16 GMT, whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, 18 March 2022 at 18:26:18 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:20:23 -0000, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2022 at 3:13:56 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>> <op.1iwxd...@ryzen.lan>:

>>>> Never heard of anyone wanting to rename an open file.
>>>
>>> Not on systems where they cannot do so! But what if there is a typo? What if
>>> you decide it is in the wrong place? On Windows you have to do a little dance
>>> of closing it, renaming or moving, the re-opening it. And then the Recent
>>> files info often is broken.
>>
>> I rename it when it isn't open. I'd see the typo when I was about to open it.
>
> I rename files when they are open especailly screen shots.
> As I forget when they depicted so I open them up then change their name while they are open
> and their name gets updated in the app and on disc.
>
> I Did this more than 6 times on saturday. While listing to the 'movie' MV_4405.MP4'
> I'd filmed early in the day I was watching it and listening to it until I reconnised the track name,
> then I edited the MVI_4405.MP4 to the track name "dark Angels" or what ever it was.

You've highlighted another piece of Windows primitiveness. That I can rename a
file or move it to another folder when it's open is very useful and something
I do quite often too.

Quite why the fact that's it's open should prevent me, the user, doing
something I want to do is a mystery. Even MS Office for macOS knows how to
cope with having an open file moved elsewhere. Certainly all macOS apps I've
ever used have no trouble with the notion.

--
Tim

On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 14:15:51 -0000, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

> On 21 Mar 2022 at 13:57:16 GMT, whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, 18 March 2022 at 18:26:18 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>
>>> No, the E: drive is the large rust spinner for videos and TV.
>>
>> Why do you have to call it the E drive.
>
> On the Mac you don't have drives, you have volumes. Drives are the physical
> hardware which (in the case of floppies and CD/DVD drives) may or may not
> contain a volume. Or it may contain several volumes, as indeed may any
> SSD/hard disk you plug in.

I assume "volume" is the same as Windows/Linux "partition".

> On the Mac what counts are volumes, which have names. So if I have a script
> that copies a file from the volume named Wiggy, I can refer to the file in the
> script as Wiggy/myfile.txt. And so on a machine with two floppy drives, I can
> put the volume (a given floppy named Wiggy) in either drive and - guess what -
> the fucking script STILL WORKS. The Mac, y'see, works with what is important
> (the volume and its name) and not with what is not important (the physical
> drive and how it happens to be connected).

Two floppy drives, ROTFPMSL! I haven't had a single floppy drive for decades.

> It was the same when the Mac II came out in 1986 or whenever it was. It had
> slots. But unlike PCs and DOS, you didn't have to know which slot a card was
> in or anything about its interrupt vectors, you just plugged it into any slot
> and rebooted AND IT ALL WORKED. Because it had firmware on the card that was
> run at boot time.
>
> This is a rather more sophisticated approach.
>
> The bollocks approach of drive letters stems from the rubbish that was the
> operating system on IBM mainframes from yesteryear, when your program read
> from / wrote to mag tapes. The drives were given id's (much like DOS drive
> letters), and when run, your program would read from whatever tape was mounted
> there. So you had to hope that the machine operator, when prompted, had loaded
> your tape on the correct tape.
>
> Magtapes with readbable labels that could be mounted on any drive and which
> would be referred to by the user's program by name, rather than by drive, came
> later.

I've never found a problem with letters. I'm not in the habit of shifting stuff randomly about. And referring to something as E instead of Wiggy is quicker and easier.

On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 14:22:25 -0000, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

> On 21 Mar 2022 at 13:57:16 GMT, whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, 18 March 2022 at 18:26:18 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:20:23 -0000, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2022 at 3:13:56 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>> <op.1iwxd...@ryzen.lan>:
>
>>>>> Never heard of anyone wanting to rename an open file.
>>>>
>>>> Not on systems where they cannot do so! But what if there is a typo? What if
>>>> you decide it is in the wrong place? On Windows you have to do a little dance
>>>> of closing it, renaming or moving, the re-opening it. And then the Recent
>>>> files info often is broken.
>>>
>>> I rename it when it isn't open. I'd see the typo when I was about to open it.
>>
>> I rename files when they are open especailly screen shots.
>> As I forget when they depicted so I open them up then change their name while they are open
>> and their name gets updated in the app and on disc.
>>
>> I Did this more than 6 times on saturday. While listing to the 'movie' MV_4405.MP4'
>> I'd filmed early in the day I was watching it and listening to it until I reconnised the track name,
>> then I edited the MVI_4405.MP4 to the track name "dark Angels" or what ever it was.
>
> You've highlighted another piece of Windows primitiveness. That I can rename a
> file or move it to another folder when it's open is very useful and something
> I do quite often too.
>
> Quite why the fact that's it's open should prevent me, the user, doing
> something I want to do is a mystery. Even MS Office for macOS knows how to
> cope with having an open file moved elsewhere. Certainly all macOS apps I've
> ever used have no trouble with the notion.

Your mind is really tangled up if you rename while stuff is open. I have never in my entire life wanted to do that. It's a horrid thing to think about implementing in an OS, it would have to pass the new name to whatever program had it open. And what if it's in the middle of writing to it? No idea how Apple manged that, and no idea why they even bothered.

On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 14:15:51 -0000, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

> The bollocks approach of drive letters stems from the rubbish that was the
> operating system on IBM mainframes from yesteryear, when your program read
> from / wrote to mag tapes. The drives were given id's (much like DOS drive
> letters), and when run, your program would read from whatever tape was mounted
> there. So you had to hope that the machine operator, when prompted, had loaded
> your tape on the correct tape.
>
> Magtapes with readbable labels that could be mounted on any drive and which
> would be referred to by the user's program by name, rather than by drive, came
> later.

I'm currently testing a huge number of USB sticks. I can easily refer to each one by drive letter. They're brand new, they don't have names, probably "USB drive" or something. Your way is clumsy.

On 21 Mar 2022 at 15:46:05 GMT, "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

> Two floppy drives, ROTFPMSL! I haven't had a single floppy drive for decades.

Do try and stay focussed. Lets say two SSDs if that makes you happier.

>> I've never found a problem with letters. I'm not in the habit of shifting stuff randomly about.

Doing anything interesting on a computer too hard for you, I suppose.

>> And referring to something as E instead of Wiggy is quicker and easier.

But it doesn't stay as E:, does it. When you add a new device and reboot,
suddenly it's F:

It's such bollocks.

--
Tim

On 21 Mar 2022 at 15:47:38 GMT, "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 14:22:25 -0000, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

>> Quite why the fact that's it's open should prevent me, the user, doing
>> something I want to do is a mystery. Even MS Office for macOS knows how to
>> cope with having an open file moved elsewhere. Certainly all macOS apps I've
>> ever used have no trouble with the notion.
>
> Your mind is really tangled up if you rename while stuff is open.

Why. It's a perfectly natural thing to do.

> I have never in my entire life wanted to do that. It's a horrid thing to think about implementing in an OS, it would have to pass the new name to whatever program had it open.

It's a simple thing to do. Each program just gets passed a file system event,
IIRC.

> And what if it's in the middle of writing to it?

That you even think this is relevant shows how limited your knowledgs is. When
a file is opened, the FS passes a file handle back to the program. A name
change is an alteration to the directory entry, nothing more, just as already
happens on each write to the file, which changes its modification date/time.
The program just carries on using the file handle, which relates to the
directory *entry*, not its content.

The file system event is sent to the program to notify it that the name (and
for a move, the path too) relating to this file handle, has changed. The
program can handle that asynchronously.

> No idea how Apple manged that, and no idea why they even bothered.

Because they applied some brain cells to the matter.

--
Tim