On 1/28/2022 6:06 PM, AJL wrote:

<snip>

>> Last we checked, over 99% of _current_ devices had the sdcard slot.
>
> That's TODAY. I said the slots are leaving, not half gone.

Andy is wrong of course™.

The MicroSD slot has already disappeared on the Samsung flagships, the
Pixel, the OnePlus, and many other flagship phones.

It used do be that the lower-cost phones included the MicroSD slot
partly as an excuse to reduce the amount of Flash ROM that they
included. But the extra cost and space that it required was probably
just too expensive considering the number of users that actually ever
put in a MicroSD card.

Sadly, the MicroSD card slot is gone on the Samsung A33 5G and the A53
5G. The A33 5G is a significant upgraded from the A32 5G and should
address some of the complaints that users had with the A32 5G. The A53
5G is more of a downgrade from the A52 5G, the performance is about the
same and you also lose the headphone jack.
<https://www.phonearena.com/reviews/samsung-galaxy-a53-5g-vs-a33_id5321>.

sms wrote:

> The MicroSD slot has already disappeared on the Samsung flagships,
> the Pixel, the OnePlus, and many other flagship phone> It used do be
> that the lower-cost phones included the MicroSD slot partly as an
> excuse to reduce the amount of Flash ROM that they included. But the
> extra cost and space that it required was probably just too
> expensive considering the number of users that actually ever put in a
> MicroSD card.

Yup. The phone manufacturers are in business to make a profit. If they
lost an appreciable amount of business by removing the slots, ports and
holes they certainly wouldn't do it.

> Sadly,

Sadly for the geeks? :-)

The owner of the no slot / no headphone jack (3.5mm) phone that lives in
my house has never complained about the lack of these things and since
she uses wireless charging I don't think any wire has been hooked to
that phone since it's arrival. And because that company makes very BIG
profits I'm not surprised that (my GUESS) most of the rest will
eventually follow...

> the MicroSD card slot is gone on the Samsung A33 5G and the A53 5G.
> The A33 5G is a significant upgraded from the A32 5G and should
> address some of the complaints that users had with the A32 5G. The
> A53 5G is more of a downgrade from the A52 5G, the performance is
> about the same and you also lose the headphone jack.
> <https://www.phonearena.com/reviews/samsung-galaxy-a53-5g-vs-a33_id5321>.

In article <st3na8$e54$1@dont-email.me>, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

> The owner of the no slot / no headphone jack (3.5mm) phone that lives in
> my house has never complained about the lack of these things and since
> she uses wireless charging I don't think any wire has been hooked to
> that phone since it's arrival.

only a tiny yet very vocal minority complains.

most people don't care because they don't use either one, and in fact,
they prefer the new design because what's happening is that sales of
newer phones without either of those continues to increase.

surprising as it may seem, companies, not just phone makers, have a
very good idea of which features are in demand and which are not, some
a bit more than others. niche features are often left to niche
products.

On 1/29/2022 7:43 AM, AJL wrote:
> sms wrote:
>
>> The MicroSD slot has already disappeared on the Samsung flagships, the
>> Pixel, the OnePlus, and many other flagship phone> It used do be that
>> the lower-cost phones included the MicroSD slot partly as an excuse to
>> reduce the amount of Flash ROM that they included. But the extra cost
>> and space that it required was probably just too
>> expensive considering the number of users that actually ever put in a
>> MicroSD card.
>
> Yup. The phone manufacturers are in business to make a profit. If they
> lost an appreciable amount of business by removing the slots, ports and
> holes they certainly wouldn't do it.

They either look at how other decontenting has worked out for other
manufacturers or they make the first move and hope that others will
follow. When Apple decontented the headphone jack that gave other
manufacturers the courage to do the same thing. At least with the loss
of the headphone jack there's the option to use a dongle from the
Lightning or USB-C port to get it back. But the MicroSD card slot
usefulness extends beyond just the ability to add more storage.

In article <st3or1$pur$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> They either look at how other decontenting has worked out for other
> manufacturers or they make the first move and hope that others will
> follow. When Apple decontented the headphone jack that gave other
> manufacturers the courage to do the same thing.

that is very much false.

apple was *not* first to remove the analog headphone jack. far from it.

early android phones, nearly a decade earlier, did not have an analog
headphone jack and also used a non-standard usb port, without including
an adapter.

<https://www.engadget.com/2008-09-23-confirmed-t-mobile-g1-has-no-3-5mm-
headphone-jack.html>
...Like many recent HTCs (Touch HD notably excepted), the G1 eschews
a standard 3.5mm headphone jack for its proprietary ExtUSB connector,
meaning you'll need custom headphones or an adapter to plug in your
own. What's worse, the adapter won't be available immediately at
launch, just a bundled headset. Why, HTC? Why?

since that time, several more android phones did not have an analog
headphone jack, *before* apple did, including le eco:
<https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/6/9/11893044/leeco-headpho
ne-jack-usb-c-smartphones>
We chose to discontinue the 3.5mm audio jack in our second-gen
phones to create a better quality audio experience for everyone to
enjoy. With the 3.5mm audio jack, the stereo sound was compromised
due to poor sound channel separation and the sound quality was
compromised due to a mismatch between phone and headphones.
By replacing the 3.5 mm jack with a Type-C port, it introduces a
new approach to mobile audio transcoding and transmission and
delivers what we believe is a much better overall audio experience
for consumers.

flip phones had a 2.5mm jack or a proprietary dock connector, either of
which required an adapter.

the entire industry is moving to a more advanced connector, some
companies faster than others.

> At least with the loss
> of the headphone jack there's the option to use a dongle from the
> Lightning or USB-C port to get it back.

there is no need for an adapter when headphones plug directly into the
phone.

the headphones were included with the phones until just recently,
because those who do use them now have at least one set and there's no
reason to provide another set to those who don't.

> But the MicroSD card slot
> usefulness extends beyond just the ability to add more storage.

nothing that can't be done in other ways which are easier, more
efficient, less hassle and less error prone.

for the phones that do have a slot, it's often empty.

manufacturers do not want to provide a feature that is not used. they'd
much rather provide features that are in demand, ones which their
competitors do not (yet) have. if there was a strong demand for a
microsd card, they would provide it. there isn't, so they don't.

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 12:36:01 -0800, Alan <nope@nope.com> wrote:
>
> >On 2022-01-28 12:31 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> >> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 12:47:02 -0700, AJL wrote:
> >>
> >>>> You claimed "MOST" Android phones no longer have the sdcard slot,
> >>>
> >>> Nope. Didn't say that at all. Not even close. Don't all your higher
> >>> degrees teach you reading comprehension?
> >>
> >> I didn't get those higher degrees without getting MOST of my facts correct,
> >> although you _claim_ that I got this one fact wrong, so let's check, shall
> >> we?
> >>
> >> Your entire post is in the sig, but this is the line I referred to:
> >> "*Though slots are leaving _MOST_ devices*, likely you
> >> will always be able to find a phone with one for awhile yet."
> >>
> >> Last we checked, over 99% of _current_ devices had the sdcard slot.
> >> Even new phones (like my Samsung A32-5g shipped this year) have the sdslot.
> >
> >Why must you lie?
>
>
> Why must you feed the trolls instead of killfiling them.

Because he ('Alan') is also a troll, just a different one than 'Andy
Burnelli' (a.k.a. 'Arlen Holder').

'Alan' is an Appleseed/fanboi/zealot who is trolling this Android
group.

On 1/29/2022 8:44 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

<snip>

> Because he ('Alan') is also a troll, just a different one than 'Andy
> Burnelli' (a.k.a. 'Arlen Holder').
>
> 'Alan' is an Appleseed/fanboi/zealot who is trolling this Android
> group.

Correct. Filter them out and it deprives them of the attention that they
seek by lying.

On 01/29/2022 08:09 AM, sms wrote:
> On 1/29/2022 7:43 AM, AJL wrote:
>> sms wrote:
>>
>>> The MicroSD slot has already disappeared on the Samsung flagships, the
>>> Pixel, the OnePlus, and many other flagship phone> It used do be that
>>> the lower-cost phones included the MicroSD slot partly as an excuse to
>>> reduce the amount of Flash ROM that they included. But the extra cost
>>> and space that it required was probably just too
>>> expensive considering the number of users that actually ever put in a
>>> MicroSD card.
>>
>> Yup. The phone manufacturers are in business to make a profit. If they
>> lost an appreciable amount of business by removing the slots, ports and
>> holes they certainly wouldn't do it.
>
> They either look at how other decontenting has worked out for other
> manufacturers or they make the first move and hope that others will
> follow. When Apple decontented the headphone jack that gave other
> manufacturers the courage to do the same thing. At least with the loss
> of the headphone jack there's the option to use a dongle from the
> Lightning or USB-C port to get it back. But the MicroSD card slot
> usefulness extends beyond just the ability to add more storage.

The problem with the missing headphone jack is that bluetooth earphones
have fucking tiny controls and switches that I need a magnifying glass
to even SEE, much less decipher. I rarely wanted to use earphones
before the Pixel2 (whose speakers are REALLY substandard even for phone
speakers), but now I NEVER do in spite of buying some that conveniently
hang around your neck, which my daughter loved. Plus you have to charge
them -- a nuisance if you only use them once every few months.

REALLY glad I don't have to use my phone for music or movies.

--
Cheers, Bev
"...and then I'll become a veterinarian because I love children."
-- Julie Brown

On 1/15/2022 7:21 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 02:11:09 -0000 (UTC), Andy Burnelli
> <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> A friend in Capitola asked me for advice on a good inexpensive Android
>> phone. She's on a 16GB Metro-PCS phone (she first said it was T-Mobile).
>>
>> It's not T-Mobile because I told her T-Mobile would give her a REVVL for
>> free but she called her carrier who said they are not the real T-Mobile.
>> <https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone/t-mobile-revvl-v-plus-5g>
>>
>> I have the Samsung Galaxy A32-5G which on Amazon seems to be over her $200
>> budget (it's about $275 to $300 as far as I can tell, for 64GB & 4GBRAM).
>>
>> I have an old Moto-G with a broken USB port that I liked so I suggested the
>> Moto G series but she told me there are too many (she's kind of right).
>>
>> I'm thinking the Moto G Power but even those seem to have multiple versions.
>> I don't know her hot buttons but I don't think it's 5G or screen size.
>> The only hot buttons I know are she's on Metro-PCS and 16GB is too small.
>>
>> Any good suggestions that others can benefit from?
>
> See
> https://www.amazon.com/Android-Phone-Under-200-Dollars/s?k=Android+Phone+Under+200+Dollars

For a low-end 5G phone, with both a headphone jack and a MicroSD card
slot, I think that the Motorola One 5G Ace is a better option.The LCD
screen and only 64GB of storage are negatives but those are compromises
that you have to make for a low cost phone.

Advantages of the Motorola One 5G Ace versus the A32 5G
-------------------------------------------------------
Slightly larger screen
Higher resolution screen
More LTE bands
More W-CDMA bands
IP67

Disadvantages of the Motorola One 5G Ace versus the A32 5G
----------------------------------------------------------
60 Hz versus 90 Hz refresh rate

Not sure if the A32 5G has MST or not.

I'd much rather have the A52 5G than the Motorola One 5G Ace but it is a
lot more expensive. The replacement model, the A53 5G has been
decontented, losing both the headphone jack and the MicroSD card slot.

I am getting a "free" Motorola One 5G Ace from Xfinity. I have no need
for it, but Xfinity's bizarre pricing structure on broadband is such
that it's $15 per month cheaper to get 600 Mb/s broadband if you take a
$15 Xfinity mobile plan than if you don't ($50-$30+$15). Reminds me of
the old joke "if you want the soda machine you have to take the
jukebox." I think that Xfinity is upset that so few people have moved to
their Verizon MVNO service.

For the original poster, he should tell his friend to just get a
subsidized phone from the carrier and consider changing carriers, at
least temporarily, to get a subsidized phone. The Samsung
Galaxy A52 5G is $259.99 from Cricket
<https://www.cricketwireless.com/cell-phones/smartphones/samsung-galaxy-a52-5g-awesome-black.html>.
The A32 5G is only $69.99 from Cricket, but I would avoid this phone.

Or she could drop Metro, port her number to Google Voice, then sign up
for a new Metro account and get the A52 5G for $99.99
<https://www.metrobyt-mobile.com/shop/phones/details/Samsung-Galaxy-A52-5G-128GB-Black/610214669063>.

It would be a big mistake to buy the A32 5G despite the low price.

sms wrote:

> with the loss of the [phone] headphone jack there's the option to use
> a dongle from the Lightning or USB-C port to get it back.

Same with the loss of the slot. I have a USB-C dongle that fits both
micro and standard SD cards. Though I generally find it just as
easy to plug my phone into my laptop and handle the storage there.

> But the MicroSD card slot usefulness extends beyond just the ability
> to add more storage.

For geeks perhaps but apparently not for the average user (sales wise)...

In article <st49jk$m5o$1@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev
<bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:

> The problem with the missing headphone jack is that bluetooth earphones
> have fucking tiny controls and switches that I need a magnifying glass
> to even SEE, much less decipher.

no they don't. they're normally controlled from the phone itself, with
on/off by detecting when they're taken out of their case or put in the
ears.

> I rarely wanted to use earphones
> before the Pixel2 (whose speakers are REALLY substandard even for phone
> speakers), but now I NEVER do in spite of buying some that conveniently
> hang around your neck, which my daughter loved. Plus you have to charge
> them -- a nuisance if you only use them once every few months.

if you only use it once every few months, then charging won't be an
issue.

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 19:06:44 -0700, AJL wrote:

> "MOST" doesn't mean all...

I never said nor implied that it did, so I wonder (again) about your lack of
reading comprehension skills.

However, it's a fair question of what "most" means (e.g., most people are
naturally immune to covid) where I use it to indicate well more than half.

For a dictionary definition, let's always defer to Websters (for the USA).
most === the majority of
<https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/most>

With that in mind, and being an extremely well educated adult, I know other
actual adults can change their statements as new information arises...
Q: Do you still feel that your statement is even remotely close to accurate?
"*Though slots are leaving _MOST_ devices*, likely you
will always be able to find a phone with one for awhile yet."
>> this is the line I referred to:
>
>> "Though slots are leaving MOST devices, likely you will always be
>> able to find a phone with one for awhile yet."
>
> Yup, those are my words. An easy to understand sentence but I'll reword
> it for you:
>
> As time goes on less and less phones will be manufactured with slots.
> But likely you will still be able to find one (as you can a phone with a
> removable battery today).

OK. As a rather well educated adult, I can easily allow you to fix your
statement, where I will agree with you that _some_ Android devices no longer
come with sdslots.

The question we don't know the answer to is whether that's a trend or not.

Given _plenty_ of brand new phones (like mine manufactured in 2021) still
come with sdslots, and given my 64GB phone is a bottom-of-the-line Samsung
(it was actually free but it's a low-end phone nonetheless), we know that
the sdslot doesn't _need_ to be removed for cost reasons (that's for sure).

So _why_ would they even _think_ of removing the sdslot moving forward?

> But you said I said:
>
> "You claimed "MOST" Android phones no longer have the sdcard slot,"

As long as you correct that statement to be the _opposite_ of what you said,
that's fine with me, as I don't disagree that _some_ phones no longer come
with the sdcard slot.

Let's stop arguing silly semantics as discussing this with you is akin to
you bringing a stick to a gun fight in terms of your intelligence issue.

Suffice to correct the statement to be accurate so that we all benefit.
a. Most devices today come with the sdslot but _some_ don't.
b. Moving forward, you haven't presented _any_ evidence of any trend yet.

If you feel that moving forward more and more devices will lose the choice
of the private portability of the sdslot, all you need to do is provide
factual evidence of what facts your belief system is based on.

Simple.
> And of course I didn't claim that, since everyone knows most Android
> phones TODAY do have slots. But less and less will have them in the
> FUTURE until MOST won't have slots. (Just like removable batteries - am
> I wearing this analogy out??)

I'm not making any claims as to the trend where my beef with what you said
was only that most Android devices today come with the sdslot. If you agree
with that fact, we don't need to discuss your statement any further.

What might be fruitful is to find out what your belief system is based on if
you feel that moving forward, more and more devices will lose the inherent
portable private storage functionality of the sdslot.

What _facts_ do you base your belief system upon?

NOTE: I'm not saying it's happening, nor am I claiming it's not happening; I
am just asking you to back up facts where your belief system comes from.
>> Last we checked, over 99% of _current_ devices had the sdcard slot.
>
> That's TODAY. I said the slots are leaving, not half gone.
>
> And BTW you apparently got your % fact wrong according to another poster.

We have an entire thread on this subject but that was the last I checked.
*7389 modern smartphones with the industry standard storage card slot*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/v2lIqZgijgE/m/lYq47-eKAgAJ>

That was in February of 2021 where the vast majority of androids gave the
user of the choice of portable private storage via the sdcard slot.

When the number of Android phones with portable private storage slots drops
to below 50%, then we can look again at the numbers as then (and only then)
will "most" Android's not have the choice of portable private storage.

>
>> On what basis can you claim "slots are leaving MOST devices" please?
>
> If you read back further in the thread I posted that was my GUESS. I had
> several guesses (predictions) in that post BTW. If you look back please
> read them slooowly... ;)

I'm fine with guesses.
I'm even better with _educated_ guesses.

An educated guess is a prediction that is based on at least one fact.
What one fact do you use to formulate your belief system?

What matters is that your belief system is based on at least 1 fact.
>> if I'm wrong, I'll happily and openly acknowledge it
>
> Bet you don't.

Heh... heh... heh... you should see the badgolferman thread on why the
iKooks can't ever admit when they're wrong.

I've taken so many difficult tests, that I'll never claim to be wrong on
them, and when the correct answer is shown to me, I'll _learn_ from that.

If you show me that your belief system is based on at least one fact, I'll
_learn_ from you too. But if, like with the iKooks, your belief system isn't
based on _any_ facts, then there's nothing whatsoever to learn from you.

Does that make sense to you?
It's basic stuff.
For adults.

In fact, to that point, I proved beyond any doubt that I, at least, will
agree openly and heartily when I'm wrong, so it's interesting that you,
again, formulate your entire belief system based on absolutely zero facts.

In fact, I proved that I'm _happy_ to be proven wrong in my facts since I
_learn_ from that result. It almost never happens, simply because my belief
systems are _based_ on facts; but the facts can change.

For example, if you run the same searches which we ran in that thread
earlier this year and if you find that MOST Android devices no longer come
with portable private storage slots, I'll admit you're right in that case.

Why wouldn't I?
It's not the fact that matters.

It's that the belief system is _based_ on facts.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 11:43:14 -0500, nospam wrote:

> the entire industry is moving to a more advanced connector, some
> companies faster than others.

While _some_ Android phones lack the basic functionality of the headphone
jack, the fact remains that _most_ Android phones have it, nospam.

So for you to claim the "entire industry is moving" merely means "Apple" is.

In fact, it's clear Apple's plan is likely to inexorably decontent phones,
year by year, item by item, excuse by excuse, so that customers buy it back.
--
Nobody in high tech has higher MARKETING nor lower R&D than does Apple.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:09:03 -0800, sms wrote:

> They either look at how other decontenting has worked out for other
> manufacturers or they make the first move and hope that others will
> follow. When Apple decontented the headphone jack that gave other
> manufacturers the courage to do the same thing. At least with the loss
> of the headphone jack there's the option to use a dongle from the
> Lightning or USB-C port to get it back. But the MicroSD card slot
> usefulness extends beyond just the ability to add more storage.

Just to make the important point that the sdslot gives the user _choice_.

Whether that choice matters to the consumer or not is where the MARKETING
people have to decide.

As one example, to put out a low-storage phone sans a microsd slot limits
"storage choice" whereas to put out a high-storage phone sans a microsd slot
doesn't limit storage choice all that much (especially if augmented by the
cloud).

As another example, to put out a low to medium end phone that has no
capacity for personal private storage transfer without cabling or computers
may not fit the people who want more functionality out of their phones.

The fact that most phones have the portable private storage slot tells us
what most MARKETING organizations feel is currently the consumer desire.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:43:01 -0700, AJL wrote:

> Yup. The phone manufacturers are in business to make a profit. If they
> lost an appreciable amount of business by removing the slots, ports and
> holes they certainly wouldn't do it.

It's all about MARKETING of the device (& setting appropriate expectations).

For example, Apple MARKETS iPhones without accessories in the box as being
"green" and Apple MARKETS the loss of the aux jack as being "courageous".

The MARKETING either works on the (gullible?) customer base.
Or it doesn't work.

I have _not_ studied the "trend" but what I think "may" be the trend is that
the few huge smartphone makers who can _afford_ the risk of putting out a
device that (a) is expensive, and (b) has huge storage to start with, and
(c) is aimed at a market that doesn't care about their money, maybe do tend
to put out expensive smartphones that omit the option of portable private
storage slots.

If you can find _any_ evidence of whether this is or isn't the case, then we
can learn from that effort.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 06:30:16 -0800, sms wrote:

> Andy is wrong of course

Steve,
Stop acting like a fool.
Just stop it.

*I'm fine with you claiming I'm wrong if you can _back it up_ with facts.*

But finding a couple of flagship devices without portable private storage is
in no way a proof that "*Most Android devices don't have the sdslot*".

It's just not.
That's a game that nospam plays all the time.

He finds _one_ device (out of thousands) and then claims it's _all_ devices.
Don't act like nospam.

You're welcome to claim that I may have misinterpreted what AJL meant (and
he and I have discussed that separately) and I'm _fine_ with that
accusation.

I'm an adult, Steve.
If you can _prove_ me wrong, I'm _happy_ to be proven wrong.

But you just saying it doesn't make it so.
Especially since you can't back up your claims with even _one_ fact, Steve.

It's _fine_ with me if I misinterpreted AJL's statement, as long as he (and
you) agree with the facts. I was clear how I interpreted AJL's statement,
and he said he didn't mean it that way (and that's fine).

The facts are overwhelmingly so that _most_ Android devices have the slot.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:47:39 -0700, AJL wrote:

>> But the MicroSD card slot usefulness extends beyond just the ability
>> to add more storage.
>
> For geeks perhaps but apparently not for the average user (sales wise)...

Being extremely well educated in multiple fields, I've heard many "opinions"
from other well-educated people which may differ from mine, where all I ask
of those people is _what_ facts they used to form their strong beliefs from.

By way of stark contrast, when I converse with rather poorly educated
people, what I often find is their belief system is based on _zero_ facts.

I'm curious what _facts_ you used, AJL, to claim that "sales wise" the
"average user" eschews the sdslot when _most_ phones have that sdslot?

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 22:43:28 -0000 (UTC), Andy Burnelli wrote:

> I've taken so many difficult tests, that I'll never claim to be wrong on
> them, and when the correct answer is shown to me, I'll _learn_ from that.
>
> If you show me that your belief system is based on at least one fact, I'll
> _learn_ from you too. But if, like with the iKooks, your belief system isn't
> based on _any_ facts, then there's nothing whatsoever to learn from you.

There was an accidental omission in the above statements, so I rephrase...

I've taken so many rather difficult technical tests that I can't possibly
claim to be correct on every answer, but I do get most answers correct.

That's because my belief systems are _based_ on facts.

By stark contrast, if you ask the iKooks to back up their strongly held
belief systems with even one fact, very often they can't do even that.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:48:41 -0800, sms wrote:

> Filter them out and it deprives them of the attention that they
> seek by lying.

I filter out some people who can't ever provide value, e.g., Snit, Mike
Carroll, Alan Baker, Michael Glasser, Dustin, et. al) but I don't filter you
out Steve, nor nospam, nor even Jolly Roger or Lewis.

That's because I glean some value from each of them, including even you.

But stop acting like a fool if you're claiming that I "lied" (if that's what
you were claiming above, since you lumped me in with the IQ 40 Alan Baker).

If you find even _one_ lie from me in my decades of posting to Usenet.
Name it.

*Name just one*
--
If you can't name one then your entire belief system is based on zero facts.

On 2/4/2022 9:19 AM, Michael Trew wrote:

<snip>

> These big-box stores are full of pushy sales people, it seems.  I
> suppose many of them aren't very smart.  I don't plan to renew my Sams
> Club membership.  They constantly have pushers in the store trying to
> sell you things.  The cashiers harass you about opening a credit card, etc.

At Costco they are constantly pushing Executive Membership upgrades,
Costco Citibank Visa, auto-renewal, and now "the App." I think that the
best approach is the same one you use when buying a car or a phone or a
television, simply say "no to all your questions." On the other hand,
often they have some sort of promotional item you can get if you sign up
so it might be worth it and you can always cancel later if you decide
that you don't want whatever it is they're pushing. But the savings at
Costco are so enormous that I would not cancel my membership just
because of a few annoying people trying to sell you stuff.

I go to Costco a lot. I've been to Costco stores in six countries. But I
usually don't use the digital membership card in the app and I usually
don't pay with the Costco Citibank Visa (exceptions are gasoline and
items where the 2 year extended warranty make it worthwhile). The credit
card I use the most gives 3% back on mobile wallet purchases so I use
that card most of the time, with Apple Pay, Google Pay, or Samsung Pay
(Samsung Pay is especially useful because many stores don't take Apple
Pay or Google Pay yet).

What is annoying is that Costco doesn't officially allow digital
membership cards to be stored in Apple Wallet or in Google Pay, they
want you to use their app instead.

I added my Costco Card to both my iPhone and Android phone. It's much
nicer to have all your cards in one place than to be scattered around in
various apps.

How to Add Unsupported Cards to Apple Wallet and Google Pay
-----------------------------------------------------------
For Costco, generate the bar code (EAN-13 format) for your member
number, and create a membership card JPG with the Costco logo and a
photo. Just make it look similar to your physical card. Only the bar
code really matters, but make it look like the real card.

To add it to your phone, for iOS use the Pass2U App
<https://apps.apple.com/us/app/pass2u-wallet-cards-coupons/id1142473931>
to load it into your digital wallet; for Android use the Pass2Pay app
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=color.dev.com.tangerine>
to add the card to Google Pay.

Unfortunately, the Pass2U app on iOS doesn't allow a large image of the
card to be stored, you get a big bar code but only a tiny image of the
card, so it might not satisfy a cashier who wants to see the picture
(but will work fine at self-checkout). The Android Pass2Pay app is much
better, you get a large image of the card in Google Pay.

Costco won't be able to do official Apple Wallet digital cards because
Apple Wallet doesn't support the EAN-13 bar code format (Apple Wallet
supports only Aztec, Code 128, PDF417, and QR). Google Pay supports
Aztec, Code 39, Code 128, EAN-13, PDF 417, QR, UPC-A so it would be
possible for Costco to do a Google Pay digital card. The paid version of
Pass2U also supports EAN-13, but not the free version.

At self-checkout, all that matters is the bar code of the member number.
This is really a weak system because there is no checking as to whether
or not the person checking out is a member or is using someone else's card.

I detail this in #133a in the document
<https://tinyurl.com/iOS-Android-Features>.

BTW, for flip phones, you could still put an image of a Costco
Membership card on the phone.

On 2/4/2022 14:02, sms wrote:
> On 2/4/2022 9:19 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> These big-box stores are full of pushy sales people, it seems. I
>> suppose many of them aren't very smart. I don't plan to renew my Sams
>> Club membership. They constantly have pushers in the store trying to
>> sell you things. The cashiers harass you about opening a credit card,
>> etc.
>
> At Costco they are constantly pushing Executive Membership upgrades,
> Costco Citibank Visa, auto-renewal, and now "the App." I think that the
> best approach is the same one you use when buying a car or a phone or a
> television, simply say "no to all your questions." On the other hand,
> often they have some sort of promotional item you can get if you sign up
> so it might be worth it and you can always cancel later if you decide
> that you don't want whatever it is they're pushing. But the savings at
> Costco are so enormous that I would not cancel my membership just
> because of a few annoying people trying to sell you stuff.

Similar pushes at Sams Club. I suppose I save money, but I don't have a
large family to buy for; typically just me, so it really isn't worth it.
As I normally do, I paid in cash last time, and I gave the cashier a
death-glance when she started on the typical credit card sales spiel "I
see that you're using cash; did you know...?" I get far less aggravated
just shopping at a normal grocery store.

On 2/4/2022 7:57 PM, Michael Trew wrote:

<snip>

> Similar pushes at Sams Club.  I suppose I save money, but I don't have a
> large family to buy for; typically just me, so it really isn't worth it.
>  As I normally do, I paid in cash last time, and I gave the cashier a
> death-glance when she started on the typical credit card sales spiel "I
> see that you're using cash; did you know...?"  I get far less aggravated
> just shopping at a normal grocery store.

Cash is pretty rare at Costco these days. The self-checkouts are card or
phone only, and of course you don't get the 2-3% back on purchases when
you pay cash and that can really add up at Costco.

Cash also slows the checkout process but so few people still pay cash
that it's not a big deal. I did get stuck behind someone paying cash a
couple of weeks ago. Deep breath as he counts out the bills and coins
and the cashier counts the bills and coins.

It would be nice if they designated one staffed line that accepted cash
and then didn't take cash at all the other lines. It would greatly
reduce the lag time when they change cashiers, as well as reduce the
time needed to count the contents of the register.

Some of the Costco food courts stopped taking cash completely. For a
while they had eight self-order kiosks but they still had one worker who
could take cash. Now if you want to pay cash you have to go to a regular
store checkout line and place your order. And of course the Costco gas
station has never taken cash. It's also sped things up now that you can
just scan your Citibank Costco card to both verify your membership and pay.

The savings at Costco are not just the lower prices on many items, it's
the included warranties. A television, refrigerator, dishwasher,
computer, etc., comes with a four year warranty if you pay with your
Citibank Costco Visa card. I've saved many years of membership fees with
those warranties.

On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 05:47:15 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 2/4/2022 7:57 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Similar pushes at Sams Club.  I suppose I save money, but I don't have a
>> large family to buy for; typically just me, so it really isn't worth it.
>>  As I normally do, I paid in cash last time, and I gave the cashier a
>> death-glance when she started on the typical credit card sales spiel "I
>> see that you're using cash; did you know...?"  I get far less aggravated
>> just shopping at a normal grocery store.
>
>Cash is pretty rare at Costco these days. The self-checkouts are card or
>phone only, and of course you don't get the 2-3% back on purchases when
>you pay cash and that can really add up at Costco.
>
>Cash also slows the checkout process but so few people still pay cash
>that it's not a big deal. I did get stuck behind someone paying cash a
>couple of weeks ago. Deep breath as he counts out the bills and coins
>and the cashier counts the bills and coins.
>
>It would be nice if they designated one staffed line that accepted cash
>and then didn't take cash at all the other lines. It would greatly
>reduce the lag time when they change cashiers, as well as reduce the
>time needed to count the contents of the register.

That's a very good idea. They should.

But in my opinion, the use of cash is going away. I almost never use
it anymore, and my guess is that it won't be too many years before
cash is gone as a method of payment.

>Some of the Costco food courts stopped taking cash completely. For a
>while they had eight self-order kiosks but they still had one worker who
>could take cash. Now if you want to pay cash you have to go to a regular
>store checkout line and place your order. And of course the Costco gas
>station has never taken cash. It's also sped things up now that you can
>just scan your Citibank Costco card to both verify your membership and pay.
>
>The savings at Costco are not just the lower prices on many items, it's
>the included warranties. A television, refrigerator, dishwasher,
>computer, etc., comes with a four year warranty if you pay with your
>Citibank Costco Visa card. I've saved many years of membership fees with
>those warranties.

I save the cost of membership just buying gas at Costco.

On 2/5/2022 8:23 AM, Ken Blake wrote:

<snip>

>> It would be nice if they designated one staffed line that accepted cash
>> and then didn't take cash at all the other lines. It would greatly
>> reduce the lag time when they change cashiers, as well as reduce the
>> time needed to count the contents of the register.
>
>
> That's a very good idea. They should.
>
> But in my opinion, the use of cash is going away. I almost never use
> it anymore, and my guess is that it won't be too many years before
> cash is gone as a method of payment.

Yes, that's true. Some cities have passed ordinances requiring
businesses to accept cash, but it's not too common, and a lot of
businesses already do not accept cash. Handling cash is just too
expensive for businessesL counting cash drawers, dealing with employee
errors and employee theft, counterfeit bills, safes, pneumatic tubes
(Costco used to use those to send excess cash back to the secure area,
armored car service, and bank fees.

The reason some small businesses want you to pay in cash has nothing to
do with credit card fees or debit card fees.

Last time I was in China in 2019, cash was rare except for tourists.
Finally the Chinese government is allowing tourists to use Alipay, but
in September 2019 they were not.

>> Some of the Costco food courts stopped taking cash completely. For a
>> while they had eight self-order kiosks but they still had one worker who
>> could take cash. Now if you want to pay cash you have to go to a regular
>> store checkout line and place your order. And of course the Costco gas
>> station has never taken cash. It's also sped things up now that you can
>> just scan your Citibank Costco card to both verify your membership and pay.
>>
>> The savings at Costco are not just the lower prices on many items, it's
>> the included warranties. A television, refrigerator, dishwasher,
>> computer, etc., comes with a four year warranty if you pay with your
>> Citibank Costco Visa card. I've saved many years of membership fees with
>> those warranties.
>
>
> I save the cost of membership just buying gas at Costco.

True. The last long road trip we took I mapped out the gasoline stops so
it would be at Costco whenever possible, though in some areas of Utah
and Arizona there were no Costcos. Saved about $50 in gas just in that
one and a half weeks.

As electric cars take over that gas station benefit will diminish.
Eventually the gas stations will go the way of the photo centers.

On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 10:06:11 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 2/5/2022 8:23 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>> It would be nice if they designated one staffed line that accepted cash
>>> and then didn't take cash at all the other lines. It would greatly
>>> reduce the lag time when they change cashiers, as well as reduce the
>>> time needed to count the contents of the register.
>>
>>
>> That's a very good idea. They should.
>>
>> But in my opinion, the use of cash is going away. I almost never use
>> it anymore, and my guess is that it won't be too many years before
>> cash is gone as a method of payment.
>
>Yes, that's true. Some cities have passed ordinances requiring
>businesses to accept cash, but it's not too common, and a lot of
>businesses already do not accept cash. Handling cash is just too
>expensive for businessesL counting cash drawers, dealing with employee
>errors and employee theft, counterfeit bills, safes, pneumatic tubes
>(Costco used to use those to send excess cash back to the secure area,
>armored car service, and bank fees.
>
>The reason some small businesses want you to pay in cash has nothing to
>do with credit card fees or debit card fees.
>
>Last time I was in China in 2019, cash was rare except for tourists.
>Finally the Chinese government is allowing tourists to use Alipay, but
>in September 2019 they were not.

I especially never want to use cash when I'm in a foreign country. If
I get some cash, I'm invariably left with some when I return home, and
it will be useless unless I ever visit the same country again. Even if
do revisit the same country, it may be useless; I still have some
Italian Lire.

>>> Some of the Costco food courts stopped taking cash completely. For a
>>> while they had eight self-order kiosks but they still had one worker who
>>> could take cash. Now if you want to pay cash you have to go to a regular
>>> store checkout line and place your order. And of course the Costco gas
>>> station has never taken cash. It's also sped things up now that you can
>>> just scan your Citibank Costco card to both verify your membership and pay.
>>>
>>> The savings at Costco are not just the lower prices on many items, it's
>>> the included warranties. A television, refrigerator, dishwasher,
>>> computer, etc., comes with a four year warranty if you pay with your
>>> Citibank Costco Visa card. I've saved many years of membership fees with
>>> those warranties.
>>
>>
>> I save the cost of membership just buying gas at Costco.
>
>True. The last long road trip we took I mapped out the gasoline stops so
>it would be at Costco whenever possible, though in some areas of Utah
>and Arizona there were no Costcos. Saved about $50 in gas just in that
>one and a half weeks.
>
>As electric cars take over that gas station benefit will diminish.
>Eventually the gas stations will go the way of the photo centers.

Yes, and also the way of cash.

By the way, I've been in several gas stations around the country that
didn't take cash. They required entering your credit or debit card
before you pumped the gas.

Speaking of credit or debit cards, I never use debit cards. I greatly
prefer credit cards.