I need this feature despite being told, high-handedly, by the Raspberry
Pi lot that I don't and that they don't support it. Most search results
are out of date as usual.

Manjaro (KDE) does it but it doesn't work in other ways. Cinnamon does
it but seems a bit OTT.

Another Dave
--
Change nospam to techie

On 27/10/2023 12:28, Another Dave wrote:
> I need this feature despite being told, high-handedly, by the Raspberry
> Pi lot that I don't and that they don't support it. Most search results
> are out of date as usual.
>
> Manjaro (KDE) does it but it doesn't work in other ways. Cinnamon does
> it but seems a bit OTT.
>
Install MATE and possibly Ubuntu instead of Debian

> Another Dave

--
“It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.”

Thomas Sowell

Another Dave <dmarsden@nospam.com> wrote:
> I need this feature despite being told, high-handedly, by the Raspberry
> Pi lot that I don't and that they don't support it. Most search results
> are out of date as usual.
>
> Manjaro (KDE) does it but it doesn't work in other ways. Cinnamon does
> it but seems a bit OTT.

Raspberry Pi OS is an OS distribution.
That distribution provides a desktop environment (DE).
By default RPiOS uses a DE called PIXEL based on customised LXDE.

If the default DE doesn't provide what you want, install another one.
If KDE is the thing you want, install that. Or find another DE.
Don't throw out the OS just because you want to change the window
dressing.

https://raspberrytips.com/upgrade-raspbian-lite-to-desktop/
which starts with RPiOS Lite, but you can also do it from full RPiOS by
skipping to step 4.

It is also possible to skip using a DE and do it 'by hand' by installing
a window manager directly (like i3 or FVWM), which gets you basic window
manipulation without also giving you a dock, system tray, file manager,
etc. I know FVWM supports multiple workspaces.

Theo

On 27/10/2023 7:05 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Install MATE and possibly Ubuntu instead of Debian
>
>
I've already installed Cinnamon and will stick with it. There are no
performance issues with it, those only start with the ginormous loads
all modern browsers place on systems. Only chromium seems to use
hardware acceleration on youtube.

Another Dave
--
Change nospam to techie

On 28/10/2023 10:14 am, Theo wrote:
> Another Dave <dmarsden@nospam.com> wrote:
>> I need this feature despite being told, high-handedly, by the Raspberry
>> Pi lot that I don't and that they don't support it. Most search results
>> are out of date as usual.
>>
>> Manjaro (KDE) does it but it doesn't work in other ways. Cinnamon does
>> it but seems a bit OTT.
>
> Raspberry Pi OS is an OS distribution.
> That distribution provides a desktop environment (DE).
> By default RPiOS uses a DE called PIXEL based on customised LXDE.
>
> If the default DE doesn't provide what you want, install another one.
> If KDE is the thing you want, install that. Or find another DE.
> Don't throw out the OS just because you want to change the window
> dressing.
>
> https://raspberrytips.com/upgrade-raspbian-lite-to-desktop/
> which starts with RPiOS Lite, but you can also do it from full RPiOS by
> skipping to step 4.
>
> It is also possible to skip using a DE and do it 'by hand' by installing
> a window manager directly (like i3 or FVWM), which gets you basic window
> manipulation without also giving you a dock, system tray, file manager,
> etc. I know FVWM supports multiple workspaces.
>
> Theo
Yes yes, I know all that. I just wanted to use a desk top optimised for
the pi. ALL desktops have the ability to use multiple workspaces except
Pixel. It was removed from Pixel specifically because somebody at
Raspberry Pi couldn't be bothered to fix a bug in it.

Another Dave
--
Change nospam to techie

In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/08/2023 13:24, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 11.08.23 um 11:54 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
[snip long research summary]
>>>
>>> And in fact using iostat on my running application shows no (physical)
>>> reads or writes *AT ALL*. As evinced by the rock steady light on the Pi
>>> Zero.
>>
>> What exactly is your question?
>>
> My question is "Why did you think that a post has to be a question?"

Well, you were responded to by Jörg -- it has a mental defect where it
can't help but be a prime asshole. That mental defect earned it a
permanant position in my killfile. I only saw it's response because of
your response.

> This is information for Pi people using SD cards. Condensing a mornings
> research into some general practical conclusions.

And condensing a few hundred scattered individual articles in the two
groups into a single place for future reference. It was a useful
summary post, even if Jörg had an issue.

> If you are not interested in it, just skip it.

Indeed, some can't seem to 'get' that simple bit of logic into their
thick heads.
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From: Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Weird code crash
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 07:09:15 +0100
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Xref: rslight2 comp.os.linux.misc:12283 comp.sys.raspberry-pi:7904

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:23:15 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> One possibility is that it is opening and reading a file at the precise
> time another process is writing it...in both cases the read and write
> operations are atomic and done with C code.
>
> READ
> ====
> fp=fopen(fullname, "r");

Anything opened with fopen is a buffered stream operations on it
are not atomic so yes it is very possible for the read to see a partially
written file. To avoid the race you need to use some kind of locking.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency
. Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Limiting the capacity of SD cards for the pi
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:41:13 +0100
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On 20/09/2023 13:46, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <ueenp9$2u313$1@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 20/09/2023 13:09, Bob Latham wrote:
>>> cd/media/usb-drive/
>
>> Thats your problem Lady.
>
>> cd /
>> THEN
>> umount
>
>> You cant unmount a drive you are sitting in
>
> Are you saying that's why it doesn't seem to have done anything even
> though I eventually typed
> # cd
> before umount. It then appeared to dismount to me?
>

That's right. If you are sitting on the mounted mount point, it cant get
off!
It will say 'busy'

> Or are you just confirming my brain wobble was correct?
>

Not sure which wobble that was...

> Bob.
>

--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

.
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From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: pi5!
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:15:41 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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On 13/10/2023 09:18, nev young wrote:
> On 12/10/2023 11:21, Louis Northmore wrote:
>> If you're a Pi lover you're going ot love the pi5! It's 2-3 times
>> faster than a
>> pi4 which is super nice.
>> Looking forward to upgrading my pi nodes in my cluster and checking
>> out the
>> performance.
>>
>> https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-5/
>>
>>
> A nice evolution of the Pi.
>
> I would rather see a Pi that will run for 7 days from 4xAA.
>
I am building one that I hope will run for a year from 3xAA

> I accept most folk want faster and faster still, but I would like
> battery powered and long time running for my wild-life cameras.
>
Cameras eat watts. Invest in serious LIPO packs or lead acid batteries

--
“A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
“We did this ourselves.”

― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

.
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On 11/08/2023 16:48, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 11.08.23 um 17:21 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>> On 11/08/2023 13:24, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 11.08.23 um 11:54 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>>> Doing the research reveals the true case about wear on flash memory
>>>> style devices and that is that substantially reads do *not* damage the
>>>> cells at all, at least no more than reading, say, DRAM. It is block
>>>> erases and writes that do and so, paradoxically, when used as a PROM,
>>>> probably wear levelling is entirely unnecessary. And if done
>>>> gratuitously may actually reduce lifetime. By 'gratuitously;, I mean
>>>> that it is done when there is no write operation in progress.
>>>> I cannot see any reason why one would shuffle blocks around *except* as
>>>> a result of a write operation, however.
>>>>
>>>> There appears to be one aspect of read operations that *does* disturb
>>>> the data (read distrurbance), and that is that read operations can
>>>> minutely affect the state of physically adjacent but unread cells.
>>>> However this is generally at least an order of magnitude below write
>>>> damage, and is normally dealt with by error correction.
>>>>
>>>> So smart SSDS with good wear levelling will *occasionally* rewrite read
>>>> only blocks, but this is in terms of hundreds of thousands of reads.
>>>>
>>>> In my particular application the reads to reasonably static
>>>> configuration files will exceed 32 million per annum, or rather they
>>>> would *without disk caching*...
>>>>
>>>> Now I am unaware as to how long Linux will regard a read only file that
>>>> is fully cached (my files are less than 1kBytes) as valid. I cannot
>>>> see *any* reason why re-reading file data that the operating systems
>>>> *knows* has not changed, would result in any actual 'physical' reads to
>>>> the SD card *at all*.
>>>>
>>>> And in fact in my particular application one code and data is loaded,
>>>> even changing the configurations files should not result in a physical
>>>> read, as the disk cache itself used to do the writing will retain the
>>>> information.
>>>>
>>>> I think the summary of all of this research is significant for PI users
>>>> running Linux in what may be generally classed as 'read often, write
>>>> seldom' accesses to an SD card, and that is that by far and away the
>>>> greatest protection the card has is the Linux disk buffering algorithm
>>>> itself, provided that constant reads do not exceed its capacity. In a
>>>> typical 24x7 applications there is no reason why, post boot, any SD
>>>> reads should happen *at all*, once the disk cache is full. It also shows
>>>> the absolutely vital role that '-noatime' plays in protecting read only
>>>> files that are read continuously from producing unwanted writes.
>>>>
>>>> As far as writes go there will (nearly) always be a 1:1 correlation
>>>> eventually between writes to the linux file system and writes to the SD
>>>> card: The exception being data that us rewritten to the same disk file
>>>> cache before it gets flushed to physical storage.
>>>>
>>>> So the general rule in utilising the SD card in the most effective
>>>> manner, is to reduce writes to a minimum by firstly mounting the card
>>>> -noatime, and secondly using RAM disks to do any logging that you can't
>>>> turn off, and for all operations where ephemeral data are being recorded
>>>> and read, but which do not need to survive a reboot. Then, having a
>>>> superfluity of RAM available for disk caching will reduce SD *reads* to
>>>> essentially zero. No matter how often the file system is accessed by the
>>>> application.
>>>>
>>>> And in fact using iostat on my running application shows no (physical)
>>>> reads or writes *AT ALL*. As evinced by the rock steady light on the Pi
>>>> Zero.
>>>
>>> What exactly is your question?
>>>
>> My question is "Why did you think that a post has to be a question?"
>
> Because the posting otherwise is unsoliceted spam?
>
Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and rasberry Pis
is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups?
What on earth do you think that spam acrually IS?

>> This is information for Pi people using SD cards. Condensing a mornings
>> research into some general practical conclusions.
>>
>> If you are not interested in it, just skip it.
>
> I'll ask when I am interested.
>
Well, next time why not shut the fuck up when you are not.

You don't get to decide policy.

All you have is a keyboard and a killfile. It's very democratic. You can
only create your own safe space, you cant dictate it for anyone else

--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

.
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From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Weird code crash
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 07:57:45 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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On 14/09/2023 07:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:23:15 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> One possibility is that it is opening and reading a file at the precise
>> time another process is writing it...in both cases the read and write
>> operations are atomic and done with C code.
>>
>> READ
>> ====
>> fp=fopen(fullname, "r");
>
> Anything opened with fopen is a buffered stream operations on it
> are not atomic so yes it is very possible for the read to see a partially
> written file. To avoid the race you need to use some kind of locking.
>
Hmm.

Howver I think that for small operations one would have to posit a time
between fopen() and fread() in which the file 'disappears' in some
sense. Burt I 8thought* that a file handle once issued would not point
to empty data, and that in fact fopen('w") would in fact create a new
file and the old would not get unlinked until it was 'fclosed'
--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

.
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From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Limiting the capacity of SD cards for the pi
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:41:35 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and rasberry Pis
> is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups?
> What on earth do you think that spam acrually IS?

Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.

--
Alea iacta est

.
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From: Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Weird code crash
Date: 14 Sep 2023 08:36:07 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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In comp.sys.raspberry-pi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Sep 13 11:26:36 heating-controller systemd[1]: relayd.service: Main
> process exit
> ed, code=killed, status=6/ABRT
> Sep 13 11:26:36 heating-controller systemd[1]: relayd.service: Failed
> with resul
> t 'signal'.
> Sep 13 11:26:36 heating-controller systemd[1]: relayd.service: Consumed
> 15.074s
> CPU time.
>
> I rebooted it, and after awhile - about ten minutes, it happened again -
> that is the above trace.
>
> I restarted it manually, and it hasn't crashed since.
>
> The web is flooded with instances of this messaqe all on different
> platforms and applications, and it would appear this is a very generic
> message possibly to do with memory issues.

You're getting SIGABRT which is typically something bailing due to memory
corruption, eg corrupting metadata so that malloc can't work, or a
double-free.

I would compile it with debugging enabled: '-g' or '-ggdb' flag to your
compiler. Then run it under gdb:

$ gdb ./myprog
(gdb) run

and see if it dies. If it does you can get a backtrace to indicate where
the fault occurred:

(gdb) bt

It may be that starting it under systemd is different in some way that it
doesn't show up when running it by hand. You could try setting as your
systemd command:

gdb -ex run -ex bt --args /usr/local/bin/myprog arg1 arg2

which will run it and then dump a backtrace when it's finished. You may get
'no stack' if it succeeded and didn't record one.

Theo
. Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Limiting the capacity of SD cards for the pi
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:43:02 +0100
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On 20/09/2023 14:15, Tauno Voipio wrote:
> On 19.9.2023 13.16, Chris Elvidge wrote:
>> On 19/09/2023 08:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 18/09/2023 20:54, druck wrote:
>>>> On 18/09/2023 09:29, Ian wrote:
>>>>> If you log in as "root", or get a root shell by calling "sudo bash",
>>>>> things work as expected:
>>>>
>>>> sudo -i
>>>>
>>>> is quicker to type.
>>>>
>>>> ---druck
>>>>
>>> su - is even quicker
>>>
>>
>> 'su -' needs a password entered (on my system(s))
>
>
> So should all other methods to aquire superuser privileges.
>
> There seems to be around RaspiOS setups with one user
> permitted in the /etc/sudoers without password.
>
Well, being linux, you have the choice. If you want to run the whole
shebang as root, you can!
--
“I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the
greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of
conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

― Leo Tolstoy

.
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: PCBs available
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:35:44 +0100
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Xref: rslight2 comp.sys.raspberry-pi:7906

On 13/10/2023 10:18, Theo wrote:
> Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:
>> I assumed it was a standard board. A 5v/240v relay is a common
>> requirement. I used a very similar board, before I switched to using
>> Shelly/Sonoff type devices. It even had 4 relays, when I only wanted one.
>
> Chinese relay boards aren't uncommon, eg:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262499095094
>
> - on that one there are optocouplers between the inputs and the relay coils,
> for some reason (maybe they were cheaper than transistors, or they really
> don't trust the relays' isolation?)
>
> The nice thing about TNP's board is there's a mains to 5V converter on
> board, which means you can power the board from the mains that you're
> switching. Otherwise you need to arrange for a separate DC power supply,
> and that gets annoying in a tight space - with this board you don't need a
> separate power supply for the Pi.
>
> Theo

Yes. I was going to cobble it all together from hats, but then it all
seemed messy.
If I had thought a bit more I could have made a bigger board and put the
zero actually ON the main PCB, and eliminated the 6 way plug...

I am considering just that for the next part of all this - the oil tank
ultrasonic level sensor which needs a battery holder, a micropower timer
to fire the PI Pico up every hour and then shut it down, and the
ultrasonic transducers. Plus two resistors to drop the supply voltage to
something the PICO ADC can handle.

It seems that the place that does the board just does a whole big sheet
of copper pcb at one price, so ordering just one doesn't happen. I think
this was $40 for ten boards.

Now I don't want a million oil tank sensors, but frankly $40 for a
single proto board is OK so if I get another 20 thrown in, they will be
up for grabs too.

I am not claiming that I can get my discrete parts count down to a mass
produced surface mounted HAT, because I cant. But the heating
controller has to 'see me out' and this looks to be a reasonably
professional way to use my skills and what eyesight and manual dexterity
I have left to make a solution that exactly fits what I want.

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/08/2023 13:21, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 12:35:25 +0100
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> What is the absolute simplest way to autostart it. /etc/init.d and a
>>> script linked to etc/rc?.d? systemd?
>>
>> /etc/rc.local - if it still exists.
>>
> Seems to. Whether it is as redundant as tits on a bull, is less obvious.

As of some years ago it existed, but didn't do anything, in RPi OS.
I found various guides online for enabling it with Systemd, none of
which worked because Systemd obviously changes its workings every
other week. I eventually wrote a script to perform all the
ridiculously over-complicated and opaque configuration scripts to
make it work on a fresh install. I posted that script once in this
group. I won't bother digging it up again now because it seems
extremely likely that by now Systemd will have changed again and it
will be as broken in current RPi OS as the various outdated
tutorials that I spent hours trying to follow originally.

The complication is wanting a process to run after everything else,
not just after some specific things have been started. Systemd is
designed to cater for the latter case, and if you're building the
OS from the ground up that's probably fine, but making it so
complicated to do the former is just unforgivable in my opinion.

I now consider RPi OS as just an example system from which to take
inspiration for implementing software in a more sane, Systemd-free,
environment.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
. Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Weird code crash
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:55:34 +0300
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Xref: rslight2 comp.os.linux.misc:12283 comp.sys.raspberry-pi:7908

The first try should be to check if the system runs fine from a
backup memory card (you have it?).

It is fairly possible that the memory card has some flipped bits,
and the effects are hard to predict.

--

-TV

On 14.9.2023 8.23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> I don't expect people to know the answer, but I could use some help in
> puzzling out where to look.
>
> I had a power cut that did leave my network a bit sketchy and it took
> two reboots on this desktop to get back to normal.  This may or may not
> be relevant.
>
> But my question refers to my Pi  Zero W server I am developing.
>
> It came up, ok, but then after a while my relay daemon crashed...
>
> Sep 13 11:26:36 heating-controller systemd[1]: relayd.service: Main
> process exit
> ed, code=killed, status=6/ABRT
> Sep 13 11:26:36 heating-controller systemd[1]: relayd.service: Failed
> with resul
> t 'signal'.
> Sep 13 11:26:36 heating-controller systemd[1]: relayd.service: Consumed
> 15.074s
> CPU time.
>
> I rebooted it, and after awhile - about ten minutes, it happened again -
> that is the above trace.
>
> I restarted it manually, and it hasn't crashed since.
>
> The web is flooded with instances of this messaqe all on different
> platforms and applications, and it would appear this is a very generic
> message possibly to do with memory issues.
>
> One person 'fixed' it by changing CPUs...
> Now *as far as I know* there was nothing special about the data the
> daemon would be operating on it this point to cause it to crash. I am
> fairly sure I have no memory leaks in it - in normal operation it
> strdups() and frees()  and opens and closes files... and 'top' shows
> memory usage is rock steady.
>
> One possibility is that it is opening and reading a file at the precise
> time another process is writing it...in both cases the read and write
> operations are atomic and done with C code.
>
> READ
> ====
> fp=fopen(fullname, "r");
> len=fread(filbuf,1,255,fp); // read entire file
>
> WRITE
> =====
> fp=fopen(filename, "w");
> if (fp)
>     {
>     fprintf(fp,"%s%s\n",filedata,timestamp);
>     fclose(fp);
>     }
>
> Could this cause a problem?
>
> I tend to suspect some sort of asynchronous timing issue because it is
> such a rare occurrence. I have been utterly unable to make it happen on
> demand...
>
>

.
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From: Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Limiting the capacity of SD cards for the pi
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 16:34:23 +0100
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In article <kn0892Fsjp7U1@mid.individual.net>,
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Bob Latham wrote:

> > Not got a linux machine only PIs doing little jobs.

> What is an rPi, other than a Linux machine?

It could be a RISCOS machine, I've got one of those running on a PI4.
No linux in site. What I meant was, I don't have a desktop linux PC
only headless units.

Bob.

.
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From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: PCBs available
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 14:35:43 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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On 13/10/2023 13:23, Theo wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Since when I did this professionally it was black tape on clear film, I
>> ended up using Corel Draw! I started with a 3D modelling program to make
>> sure the physical bits fitted, then exported the copper to Corel,
>> because I am very fluent in it
>>
>> I found a CDR to Gerber conversion utility online. That made all the
>> difference and it even worked for the legend. The drill file was harder
>> but again I found a utility to create that.
>
> Nice. An ex-colleague of mine has a startup which does 'PCB art', ie using
> the PCB medium for artistic design that happens to be a functional circuit:
> https://boldport.com/
>
> He has a flow that uses Inkscape for the 'artistry' and then turns it into
> Gerbers:
> https://github.com/boldport/pcbmode
>
> but if you don't need any of the schematic/netlist/ERC/DRC/etc support that
> a PCB tool gives you, just hand drawing it in the drawing package works well
> enough. It's quite a nice idea for making attractive and not-complicated
> boards.
>
>>> I now need to trigger one mains coil from a Pi without exporting mains or
>>> putting any DC wiring in the all-mains enclosure (where I can't get good
>>> isolation). Current plan is to make a photo-triac triggered by light from
>>> an LED on the Pi carried on some optical fibre...
>>
>> If a discrete optical coupler is a nono that might work.
>
> It's a bit annoying... with no DC in the box and not wanting to risk
> exporting mains to the Pi, or making another box with a relay, the obvious
> option is an optocoupler, but you can't really ensure good isolation unless
> you put it in a good enclosure, which is tricky here because I'm shoving it
> in an existing mains box dangling on flying leads.
>
> Aha, I thought, you can get optotriacs to switch AC, so what about if I just
> get a phototriac and shine a light at it to trigger the triac instead of
> having the LED in the optotriac. Trouble is, phototriacs don't exist as a
> discrete component. So the next plan is to use an LDR (photoresistor) to
> trigger the gate of a regular triac (street lights use this for the
> dawn-to-dusk circuit). Only finding an LDR rated for 339Vpeak is tricky, so
> I probably need to voltage divide first...
>
> I suppose I should just bite the bullet with an optotriac, put it in a
> little case with wire tail connections, and pot it all with some HV safe
> resin. Although the idea of a mains box with just an optical fibre input
> does have its appeal...
>
> Theo
yes, you have thought it through all right., I didnt think LDRs had a
'maximum voltage' rating TBH.

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 20:11:43 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
> On 2023-08-11 17:48, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 11.08.23 um 17:21 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

You all forgot how to trim postings? :-/

>>>> What exactly is your question?
>>>>
>>> My question is "Why did you think that a post has to be a question?"
>> Because the posting otherwise is unsoliceted spam?
>
> Not correct.
>
> As we are in a Linux group, you might remember that Linus posted his
> first kernel here (on comp.os.minix) and it was not a question.

Part was.

| [...] PS. Could someone please try to finger me from overseas, as I've
| installed a "changing .plan" (made by your's truly), and I'm not certain
| it works from outside? It should report a new .plan every time.

<https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~awb/linux.history.html>

But I agree, announcements may be okay, if they are on topic.

F'up2 colm.
--
Andreas
. Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Weird code crash
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:52:37 +0100
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On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 07:57:45 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Howver I think that for small operations one would have to posit a time
> between fopen() and fread() in which the file 'disappears' in some
> sense. Burt I 8thought* that a file handle once issued would not point
> to empty data, and that in fact fopen('w") would in fact create a new
> file and the old would not get unlinked until it was 'fclosed'

Nope - from man fopen

“w” Open for writing. The stream is positioned at the beginning of
the file. Truncate the file to zero length if it exists or
create the file if it does not exist.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency
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From: Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Limiting the capacity of SD cards for the pi
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 16:36:38 +0100
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In article <ueespp$2v1m1$1@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> That's right. If you are sitting on the mounted mount point, it
> cant get off! It will say 'busy'

Right but that's not the reason the whole thing did nothing *after* I
corrected that ????

Bob.

.
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From: Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: PCBs available
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 14:51:18 +0100
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Theo wrote:

> It's a bit annoying... with no DC in the box and not wanting to risk
> exporting mains to the Pi, or making another box with a relay, the
> obvious option is an optocoupler, but you can't really ensure good
> isolation unless you put it in a good enclosure, which is tricky here
> because I'm shoving it in an existing mains box dangling on flying
> leads. Aha, I thought, you can get optotriacs to switch AC, so what
> about if I just get a phototriac and shine a light at it to trigger the
> triac instead of having the LED in the optotriac. Trouble is,
> phototriacs don't exist as a discrete component.

Can't you "snap" one of these in half?

<https://cpc.farnell.com/omron-electronic-components/ee-sx4070/opto-switch-slotted/dp/SC12350?>
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On 11/4/23 3:02 PM, Michael Schwingen wrote:
> On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>> I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
>> there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
>> creating a file
>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:
>
> That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package).
> Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces,
> too.

And how much other stuff ???

/etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented

There was NO reason to change.

So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.

I'm gonna look into Arch ......

>> Has anyone discovered how to make a Wi-Fi dongle work with bookworm
>> lite? If so, could you enlighten me please.
>
> Have a look at
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/WiFi/HowToUse
>
> under "manual", "Using ifupdown and wpasupplicant" - you can specify
> everything you usually need in /etc/network/interfaces, no need to manually
> create separate config files.

On 2023-11-05, 56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
> Nothing beats a static IP. DHCP can, and eventually WILL,
> move stuff around - and then you get weird annoying failures.

Actually does not have to be true.

It is possible to run a dhcp server that hands out a fixed IP address
for a specific MAC. Many home routers allow this feature too. I run my
own DHCP server exactly to have full control over this and many other
features.

Not defending Debian here at all :-) Though I do use debain derived OSes
- but much reconfigured.

In article <OBGdncacO82Jvtr4nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

> I'll provide a skeleton for a /system-connections template
> on Monday ... there ARE a very few example on the web, but
> VERY few and hard to find. They look nothing like anything
> from before.

If I understand you correctly, I'm looking forward to that.

Thanks.

Bob.

In article <slrnukd5ac.c0ep.news-1513678000@a-tuin.ms.intern>,
Michael Schwingen <news-1513678000@discworld.dascon.de> wrote:
> On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> > I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
> > there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
> > creating a file
> > /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:

> That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown
> package). Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in
> /etc/network/interfaces, too.

> > Has anyone discovered how to make a Wi-Fi dongle work with
> > bookworm lite? If so, could you enlighten me please.

> Have a look at

> https://wiki.debian.org/WiFi/HowToUse

> under "manual", "Using ifupdown and wpasupplicant" - you can
> specify everything you usually need in /etc/network/interfaces, no
> need to manually create separate config files.

I'm reading that now and trying to understand it. Not heard that
penny drop yet. :-)

Thanks for that.

Bob.

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 10:40:28 -0000 (UTC)
Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:

> It is possible to run a dhcp server that hands out a fixed IP address
> for a specific MAC.

Which can be a pain when you upgrade a box or want to hand a fixed
IP to something like a phone that randomly changes MAC address to prevent
IPv6 auto allocation being used for tracking.

Many DHCP servers can also allocate a static IP based on hostname
which is really handy especially with DNS/DHCP integrated as in dnsmasq.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
> On 11/4/23 3:02 PM, Michael Schwingen wrote:
> > On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> >> I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
> >> there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
> >> creating a file
> >> /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:
> >
> > That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package).
> > Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces,
> > too.
>
> And how much other stuff ???
>
> /etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented
>
> There was NO reason to change.
> So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
> like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
> and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.

Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:

https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/rhd1e4/future_of_network_configuration_in_debian/

> I'm gonna look into Arch ......

Seems like Arch uses the same tools, with systemd-networkd by default:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Network_configuration

Theo

On 05/11/2023 11:05, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <OBGdncacO82Jvtr4nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> 56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> I'll provide a skeleton for a /system-connections template
>> on Monday ... there ARE a very few example on the web, but
>> VERY few and hard to find. They look nothing like anything
>> from before.
>
> If I understand you correctly, I'm looking forward to that.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob.
>

For my Pi Zero W running bookworm.

I did an in-place upgrade from bullseye to bookworm and then a later
upgrade broke the networking. See the thread "Arrgh!! systemd strikes
again!"

Using a separate Linux system to access the Pi's SDcard I added the
following files

/etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
/etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf

In my case the content is

/etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
allow-hotplug wlan0
iface wlan0 inet dhcp
wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf

/etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
update_config=1
country=GB

network={
ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
}

My router is setup to allocate a set of fixed IP addrs based on MAC
address for some devices that use DHCP. The rest have fixed IP addrs anyway.

In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1@dont-email.me>,
mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:

> Using a separate Linux system to access the Pi's SDcard I added the
> following files

> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf

> In my case the content is

> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
> allow-hotplug wlan0
> iface wlan0 inet dhcp
> wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf

> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
> ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
> update_config=1
> country=GB

> network={
> ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
> psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
> }

Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.

On a raspberry pi 2 with no built in wi-fi I tried a couple of
different dongles but they both worked

> My router is setup to allocate a set of fixed IP addrs based on MAC
> address for some devices that use DHCP. The rest have fixed IP
> addrs anyway.

Yes, same here.

Thanks again.

Bob.

On 05/11/2023 16:31, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1@dont-email.me>,
> mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> Using a separate Linux system to access the Pi's SDcard I added the
>> following files
>
>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>
>
>> In my case the content is
>
>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>> allow-hotplug wlan0
>> iface wlan0 inet dhcp
>> wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>
>
>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>> ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
>> update_config=1
>> country=GB
>
>> network={
>> ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
>> psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
>> }
>
> Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.
>
> On a raspberry pi 2 with no built in wi-fi I tried a couple of
> different dongles but they both worked
>
>> My router is setup to allocate a set of fixed IP addrs based on MAC
>> address for some devices that use DHCP. The rest have fixed IP
>> addrs anyway.
>
> Yes, same here.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Bob.
>

Glad to be of help. I found stuff about this online so it's not my own
hard work here just the distillation of someone else's efforts.

On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:
> 56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>> On 11/4/23 3:02 PM, Michael Schwingen wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>>>> I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
>>>> there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
>>>> creating a file
>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:
>>>
>>> That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package).
>>> Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces,
>>> too.
>>
>> And how much other stuff ???
>>
>> /etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented
>>
>> There was NO reason to change.
>> So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
>> like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
>> and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.
>
> Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
> abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
> with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:

And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.

> https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/rhd1e4/future_of_network_configuration_in_debian/
>
>> I'm gonna look into Arch ......
>
> Seems like Arch uses the same tools, with systemd-networkd by default:
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Network_configuration

May have to just stick with BullsEye for quite awhile then ...

Depending, there ARE ways to manage any security risks even
after updates get thin.

I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !

As is now, EVERY update might now totally BREAK your
hard-won applications. This is NOT acceptable.

ANYway, I'll post templates for nm entries tomorrow,
one for wired, another for wireless. Get 'em going
with an easy nmcli and then tweak to taste with nano.

Hmm ... I can already visualize an EASY TO USE
replacement for common nmcli uses on a Pi ...
I'll do it in Python (no, not bash with it's
obscure syntax I have to look up EVERY time) and
post it somewhere findable. Fill-in-the-blanks is
the simplest approach along with a 'ladder' structure
so you can key 'next' or 'go back'. Oh sure, you
can install Gnome or something, use the GUI nm app
(gotta run it as root) and then try to UN-install all
that junk ... until you need to repeat .....

There ARE Pi-runnable versions of FreeBSD and
even Plan-9 these days. I'm betting they're
less volatile. I've run OpenSuse on a Pi
(though it's 'heavy') but I'll have to check
if RHEL and/or Fedora keep breaking What Works
first.

On 11/5/23 2:25 PM, mm0fmf wrote:
> On 05/11/2023 16:31, Bob Latham wrote:
>> In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1@dont-email.me>,
>>     mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Using a separate Linux system to access the Pi's SDcard I added the
>>> following files
>>
>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>
>>
>>> In my case the content is
>>
>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>> allow-hotplug wlan0
>>> iface wlan0 inet dhcp
>>>     wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>
>>
>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>> ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
>>> update_config=1
>>> country=GB
>>
>>> network={
>>>           ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
>>>           psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
>>> }
>>
>> Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.
>>
>> On a raspberry pi 2 with no built in wi-fi I tried a couple of
>> different dongles but they both worked
>>
>>> My router is setup to allocate a set of fixed IP addrs based on MAC
>>> address for some devices that use DHCP. The rest have fixed IP
>>> addrs anyway.
>>
>> Yes, same here.
>>
>> Thanks again.
>>
>> Bob.
>>
>
>
> Glad to be of help. I found stuff about this online so it's not my own
> hard work here just the distillation of someone else's efforts.

Did that work on BOOKWORM ???

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 23:15:08 -0500
"56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

> On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:

> > Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
> > abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
> > with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:
>
>
> And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
> dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.

Strange that - dhclient is still part of the base system in FreeBSD.

> I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
> Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !

Look into the BSDs - they're not Linux and they don't follow
fashion.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

In article <FcGcnQ_s4rd39dX4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
> On 11/5/23 2:25 PM, mm0fmf wrote:
> > On 05/11/2023 16:31, Bob Latham wrote:
> >> In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1@dont-email.me>,
> >> mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:

> >>> I added the following files

> >>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
> >>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
> >>
> >>
> >>> In my case the content is
> >>
> >>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
> >>> allow-hotplug wlan0
> >>> iface wlan0 inet dhcp
> >>> wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
> >>
> >>
> >>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
> >>> ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
> >>> update_config=1
> >>> country=GB
> >>
> >>> network={
> >>> ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
> >>> psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
> >>> }
> >>
> >> Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.

> Did that work on BOOKWORM ???

Yes it does!

However, one word of caution. There is a strong tendency for the OS
to overwrite the file /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf with
zeros. I've seen this with bullseye too. I suspect it is some weird
security measure to try to stop tinkering.

The solution with bullseye is to copy that file not to
/etc/wpa_supplicant but whilst the SD card is still in the PC copy it
to the boot partition. The Pi then copies this into the correct place
at boot up and marks it as valid in some way to prevent overwrite.
I've not tried this yet on bookworm, that's up next...

Bob.

On 06/11/2023 08:24, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <FcGcnQ_s4rd39dX4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> 56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>> On 11/5/23 2:25 PM, mm0fmf wrote:
>>> On 05/11/2023 16:31, Bob Latham wrote:
>>>> In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>> mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> I added the following files
>
>>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In my case the content is
>>>>
>>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>>>> allow-hotplug wlan0
>>>>> iface wlan0 inet dhcp
>>>>> wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>> ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
>>>>> update_config=1
>>>>> country=GB
>>>>
>>>>> network={
>>>>> ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
>>>>> psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
>>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.
>
>
>> Did that work on BOOKWORM ???
>
> Yes it does!
>
> However, one word of caution. There is a strong tendency for the OS
> to overwrite the file /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf with
> zeros. I've seen this with bullseye too. I suspect it is some weird
> security measure to try to stop tinkering.
>
> The solution with bullseye is to copy that file not to
> /etc/wpa_supplicant but whilst the SD card is still in the PC copy it
> to the boot partition. The Pi then copies this into the correct place
> at boot up and marks it as valid in some way to prevent overwrite.
> I've not tried this yet on bookworm, that's up next...
>
> Bob.
>

Not happening here but I do note that nmcli says wlan0 is unmanaged.

On 06/11/2023 08:47, mm0fmf wrote:
> On 06/11/2023 08:24, Bob Latham wrote:
>> In article <FcGcnQ_s4rd39dX4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
>>     56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>> On 11/5/23 2:25 PM, mm0fmf wrote:
>>>> On 05/11/2023 16:31, Bob Latham wrote:
>>>>> In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>      mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> I added the following files
>>
>>>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>>>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> In my case the content is
>>>>>
>>>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>>>>> allow-hotplug wlan0
>>>>>> iface wlan0 inet dhcp
>>>>>>      wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>>> ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
>>>>>> update_config=1
>>>>>> country=GB
>>>>>
>>>>>> network={
>>>>>>            ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
>>>>>>            psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
>>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.
>>
>>
>>>     Did that work on BOOKWORM ???
>>
>> Yes it does!
>>
>> However, one word of caution. There is a strong tendency for the OS
>> to overwrite the file /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf with
>> zeros. I've seen this with bullseye too. I suspect it is some weird
>> security measure to try to stop tinkering.
>>
>> The solution with bullseye is to copy that file not to
>> /etc/wpa_supplicant but whilst the SD card is still in the PC copy it
>> to the boot partition. The Pi then copies this into the correct place
>> at boot up and marks it as valid in some way to prevent overwrite.
>> I've not tried this yet on bookworm, that's up next...
>>
>> Bob.
>>
>
> Not happening here but I do note that nmcli says wlan0 is unmanaged.

Oh dear, replying to myself....

As it's unmanaged by NetworkManagaer, then it's being left alone. That's
just fine for what this PiZeroW is used for. I have another PiZeroW with
the same release of software that I'll play with and will add wlan0 to
NetworkManager's grasp so I can see what it does (if anything).

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
> 56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>> So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work like it
>> used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes and now Deb
>> seems to have even exceeded THEM.
>
> Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
> abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
> with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:

ifupdown still exists in bookworm. There is no need to break anything
to use it.

isc-dhcp-client does seems to be abandonware, but ifupdown supports at
least two other DHCP clients.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/