On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 08:57:34 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 7:03:14 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/20/2022 8:39 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:10:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...
>> >>>
>> >>>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
>> >>>
>> >>> Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.
>> >>
>> >> :-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
>> >>from Lil' Abner
>> >> http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
>> >> although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
>> >> to fall on yourself.
>> >>
>> >> However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
>> >> can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
>> >>
>> >>> Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?
>> >>
>> >> I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
>> >> better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
>> >>
>> >> From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
>> >> "a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
>> >> strength."
>> >>
>> >> From
>> >> https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
>> >> "Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."
>> >>
>> >> From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
>> >> "Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
>> >> strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
>> >> for properly."
>> >>
>> >> From
>> >> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
>> >> "A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
>> >> Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
>> >> Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
>> >> indefinitely."
>> >>
>> >>> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
>> >>
>> >> So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
>> >> Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
>> >> so terrible? Maybe some data?
>> >>
>> >> I'm joking! Of course you can't!
>> >
>> >
>> > "Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures
>> > are so terrible? Maybe some data?"???
>> >
>> > Good Lord! Don't you realize that Tommy doesn't have to offer proof of
>> > anything? Tommy simply follows the teaching of Dr. Goebbels who taught
>> > that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
>> > eventually come to believe it."
>> >
>> I have a more than usual (less than Mr Slocumb)experience
>> with maintenance of classic motor vehicles and among the
>> least trouble-prone systems is a 12v starter motor with big
>> heavy iron magnets. Never saw one fail except for bearings
>> and the bendix drive. Solenoids do stick (best remedy- smack
>> smartly with something heavy, especially in cold weather)
>> but respond well to a good cleaning and lubrication.
>>
>> I don't recall reading anything about starter motors so,
>> since my auto library is nearby, I checked the official GM
>> service manuals for 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 just now. Each
>> has 15 sections (engine specs/setup, cooling, exhaust, fuel,
>> suspension, gearbox etc). There's no mention of starter
>> motor service in all four thick books.
>
>As you can see from this citation, the early starter motors did not use permanent magnets through they retained a magnetic field. They were electro-magnetic in operation. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/fixing-american-1950s-car-starter-motor-271903/
>
>Starting in the 80's I believe they started converting to permanent magnets since that made the starter cheaper, lighter and so gave increased gas mileage. This was all part of a general lightening of the automobiles from the 6,000 lbs to the present 2,500 for the average compact car. Or 4,000 lbs for the average medium size car like my Taurus.
>
>I have had three cars since I recovered and every one of them had a starter failure and in every case, the AAA guy would reach down with a pole and smack the starter which would then start the car. He said that I should drive it straight to a repair shop because it wouldn't start again because that smack broke the permanent magnets. Upon arriving at the shop and stopping the engine indeed, it wouldn't turn over.

"since I recovered"???

I can't comment on your actions before you fell off your bike and hit
your head but since then you have always displayed a certain dementia:
Narcissistic personality disorder --

"A mental condition in which people have an
inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive
attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of
empathy for others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a
fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism and
frequently respond to what they perceive as criticism with insults and
threats of physical assault."

And no, I have no medical training but most people when they see a
creature that looks like a dog, yaps like a dog and barks at the moon,
Why they call it a dog.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 09:22:10 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:57:36 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>> I have had three cars since I recovered and every one of them had a starter failure
>
>I've had literal 40 cars since I first started driving (the first 15 years or so were the usual shit-boxes someone from my demographic could afford and yes, I can list them all and what happened to them). In those intervening 45 years I've had exactly one starter failure - on a 1974 buick electra 225 (I paid $500 for it). The solenoid failed, not the starter motor. We currently have a '09 honda element, '10 honda insight, and '15 toyota highlander. Before that I had a '00 volvo v90, a '01 ford taurus, and a '96 bonneville. None of them have ever had a starter failure and I don't know of anyone who had a start failure in at least the past 20 years. You must have _real_ shit luck.
>
>> and in every case, the AAA guy would reach down with a pole and smack the starter which would then start the car.
>
>That's usually a corrosion issue.
>
>> He said that I should drive it straight to a repair shop because it wouldn't start again because that smack broke the permanent magnets.
>
>Not likely. If a simply rap on the starter housing could break the magnets, there's no way it would survive years worth of vibration mechanical shock, and temperature extremes of being mounted to an engine block.
>
>> Upon arriving at the shop and stopping the engine indeed, it wouldn't turn over.
>
>Because corrosion is progressive. If they charged you for new starters every time, you were cheated.

Well, yes corrosion is progressive and just as dementia is
progressive, as Tommy so aptly demonstrates.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/21/2022 5:03 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:43:08 -0000 (UTC),
> Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>>>>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
>>>>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
>>>>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
>>>>>
>>>> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour. Popped
>>>> it off the handlebar halfway home, tossed it and never
>>>> reconsidered.
>>>
>> I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so I
>> don???t worry I???m going to be late, I *hate* being late!
>>
>> I like to know my speed and the distance I???ve done. I find
>> the temperature interesting though to be honest not needed,
>> same goes for my altitude.
>>
>> I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know how
>> much more there is! The time up it, I???m rarely bothered by.
>>
>> The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it is,
>> is genuinely useful as I can read the text if I wish, and stop
>> to answer the phone or ignore it, as it???s junk etc. plus
>> having had life changing injury gives my wife knowledge that I
>> can be contacted.
>
> Oh that's a good point. I biffed last fall, and my wife got a
> text message of an incident telling her the specific location.
> She was getting into the car to come scrape me off the pavement
> when I managed to connect via phone and tell her I could make it
> home on my own.

Honestly, a life changing injury has never been a concern of mine. I
started avid adult cycling in 1973 after having ridden constantly
through my childhood and teen years. Never once did I fear that I'd not
make it home. That included (perhaps foolishly) during 50+ mph descents.

Based on available data, the most dangerous thing I do with any
regularity is riding my motorcycle. But even then, I never think "Gosh,
what if I crash and am knocked unconscious or worse?"

One of the oddities of modern life is that most of us are safer by
almost any measure than we have ever been. Yet we are more fearful.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:10:49 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/21/2022 10:04 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the
>>> earth magnetic field.
>>>
>>> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
>>
>> On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
>>
>> OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
>>
>>
>
>What happens to bicycle computers when the poles shift?
>
>https://www.sciencealert.com/navigation-systems-finally-caught-up-with-the-mysteriously-north-pole-shift
>
>Aren't we supposed to light our hair on fire, throw our
>hands in the air and run around screaming about Global
>Magnetism Change?

If I remember correctly the magnetic deviation, or "magnetic
declination", as it is sometimes referred to, varies from place to
place. True north, measured by a magnetic compass, ranges from about 5
degrees west in S. Florida to 30 degrees west on the south-eastern tip
of Africa to 26 degrees east on the southern tip of New Zealand.

So there really is a "Global Magnetism Change" If "change" can
indicant "difference" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 11:59:47 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 7:53:30 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/20/2022 9:39 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:10:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...
>> >>>
>> >>>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
>> >>>
>> >>> Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.
>> >>
>> >> :-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
>> >>from Lil' Abner
>> >> http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
>> >> although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
>> >> to fall on yourself.
>> >>
>> >> However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
>> >> can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
>> >>
>> >>> Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?
>> >>
>> >> I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
>> >> better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
>> >>
>> >> From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
>> >> "a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
>> >> strength."
>> >>
>> >> From
>> >> https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
>> >> "Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."
>> >>
>> >> From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
>> >> "Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
>> >> strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
>> >> for properly."
>> >>
>> >> From
>> >> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
>> >> "A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
>> >> Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
>> >> Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
>> >> indefinitely."
>> >>
>> >>> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
>> >>
>> >> So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
>> >> Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
>> >> so terrible? Maybe some data?
>> >>
>> >> I'm joking! Of course you can't!
>> >
>> >
>> > "Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures
>> > are so terrible? Maybe some data?"???
>> >
>> > Good Lord! Don't you realize that Tommy doesn't have to offer proof of
>> > anything? Tommy simply follows the teaching of Dr. Goebbels who taught
>> > that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
>> > eventually come to believe it."
>> That's a very fashionable practice these days in the U.S.
>
>You in particular seem to be a purveyor of that practice. You supposedly taught mechanical engineering so it would have been a simple thing for you to explain to small fat Johnny that earlier starter motors used electromagnets and not PM's.

Ah but Tommy, Johnny (is 61 kg fat?) never said that "earlier starter
motors used electromagnets".

you see, I previously said, your dementia is progressive (i.e., it is
getting worse) and you are now imagining things that never occurred.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:05:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>> >>
>> >> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>> >> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>> >> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>> >>
>> >> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>> >> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>> >>
>> >> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>> >> madly toward the finish line.
>> >
>> > And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk about it as if you understood the problem.
>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>>
>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>>
>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>
>Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress as rapidly as electronics.

Errr... Tommy! Here is a picture of a starter and a circuit diagram of
how it works. See the Relay.
https://www.samarins.com/glossary/starter.html
--
Cheers,

John B.

funkma...@hotmail.com <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:57:36 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>> I have had three cars since I recovered and every one of them had a starter failure
>
> I've had literal 40 cars since I first started driving (the first 15
> years or so were the usual shit-boxes someone from my demographic could
> afford and yes, I can list them all and what happened to them). In those
> intervening 45 years I've had exactly one starter failure - on a 1974
> buick electra 225 (I paid $500 for it). The solenoid failed, not the
> starter motor. We currently have a '09 honda element, '10 honda insight,
> and '15 toyota highlander. Before that I had a '00 volvo v90, a '01 ford
> taurus, and a '96 bonneville. None of them have ever had a starter
> failure and I don't know of anyone who had a start failure in at least
> the past 20 years. You must have _real_ shit luck.

We have had two vehicles in the garage for the last 40 years and I have had
precisely one starter failure, which was due to the contacts on the
solenoid wearing down to the point where they would not make positive
contact.

>
>> and in every case, the AAA guy would reach down with a pole and smack
>> the starter which would then start the car.
>
> That's usually a corrosion issue.

Or a sticky solenoid.

>> He said that I should drive it straight to a repair shop because it
>> wouldn't start again because that smack broke the permanent magnets.
>
> Not likely. If a simply rap on the starter housing could break the
> magnets, there's no way it would survive years worth of vibration
> mechanical shock, and temperature extremes of being mounted to an engine block.
>
>> Upon arriving at the shop and stopping the engine indeed, it wouldn't turn over.
>
> Because corrosion is progressive. If they charged you for new starters
> every time, you were cheated.
>

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 11:23 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:04:24 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the earth magnetic field.
>>>>
>>>> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
>>> On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
>>>
>>> OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> Over complex? It just a black blob that just works. Only needs a battery
>> once a year (average). Gets rid of the magnet and aligning and the speed
>> sensor can be switched between bikes/wheels within 15 seconds.
>
> Ah yes, such benefits.
>
> How have bicyclists ever survived without that?
>
>

Frank, wonky cadence sensors are definitely a first world problem, but
that’s where we live.

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>>>>> madly toward the finish line.
>>>>
>>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to
>>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was
>>>> talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go
>>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars
>>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I
>>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk
>>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
>>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
>>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
>>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>>>
>>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
>>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
>>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>>>
>>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>>
>> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM
>> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a
>> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress
>> as rapidly as electronics.
>>
>
> How new?
> Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
> Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.
>
> https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
>

They have both.

The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies voltage to the
starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear” is driven by the starter
motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:28:29 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 5:10:19 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
>> >>>
>> >>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
>> >>>
>> >>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...
>> >
>> >> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
>> >
>> > Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.
>> :-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
>> from Lil' Abner
>> http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
>> although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
>> to fall on yourself.
>>
>> However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
>> can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
>> > Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?
>> I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
>> better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
>>
>> From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
>> "a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
>> strength."
>>
>> From
>> https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
>> "Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."
>>
>> From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
>> "Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
>> strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
>> for properly."
>>
>> From
>> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
>> "A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
>> Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
>> Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
>> indefinitely."
>> > Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
>> So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
>> Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
>> so terrible? Maybe some data?
>>
>> I'm joking! Of course you can't!
>
>Frank, I know that without any knowledge of the subject, like fat Johnny you believe that you can google something that will explain all to your advantage but you can't. If you take the PM and hit it a couple of times against a hard surface like an anvil it can totally lose its magnetism. This is nothing more than forcing the atoms back into a disordered state from the ordered state that they were forced into either with another strong magnet or electromagntic fields.
>
>This isn't the failure mechanism of the permanent magnet starters. They are constructed with a brittle material that has a high magnetism but because of the brittleness begin cracking in a large number of cases. Whacking them with the pole both breaks them more but causes them to realign enough so that the armature can rotate.
>

Well Tommy, in regard to your explanation of Starter Motor magnets I
believe that you are lying....

Now I challenge you to prove that you weren't, if you can.

Otherwise we will have to start referring to you as "Hot Arse Tom" as
in "Liar, Liar, pants on fire." as the playground chant has it.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>>>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>>>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>>>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>>>>>> madly toward the finish line.
>>>>>
>>>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to
>>>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was
>>>>> talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go
>>>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars
>>>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I
>>>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk
>>>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
>>>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
>>>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
>>>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>>>>
>>>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
>>>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
>>>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>>>>
>>>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>>>
>>> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM
>>> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a
>>> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress
>>> as rapidly as electronics.
>>>
>>
>> How new?
>> Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
>> Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.
>>
>> https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
>>
>
> They have both.
>
> The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies voltage to the
> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear” is driven by the starter
> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>
>

I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix
drives are out and solenoids are in.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:33:48 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 3:30:43 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 2:34:49 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 7:09:35 PM UTC-5, Ted Heise wrote:
>> > > On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:23:49 -0800 (PST),
>> > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:50:59 PM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > > > > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:27:52 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > > > And neither the 800 or 820 seem to have a display page that
>> > > > > > gives, cadence, speed and distance. Trying to discover how
>> > > > > > to perhaps modify the displays, I ended up in some page that
>> > > > > > was seemingly trying to get me to ride faster than I did
>> > > > > > last ride. And the only way I could get out of that was to
>> > > > > > turn the unit off and then restart it.
>> > >
>> > > > > https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look.html
>> > > > > Scroll down to "Base Cycling Features" "Once you???re riding,
>> > > > > you???ll have a number of data fields that can be displayed at
>> > > > > any one point in time. You can set up to 10 data fields per
>> > > > > data screen (up from eight), and have up to 3 primary data
>> > > > > screens, in addition to map and course based screens. You can
>> > > > > customize all of these screens and data fields however you???d
>> > > > > like with the following information: [followed by graphic
>> > > > > table]
>> > > >
>> > > > Why do you run your mouth off about everything when you don't
>> > > > understand anything?
>> > > Tom, I think he was trying to help. The short version is that the
>> > > displays on these Garmin devices are highly configurable. I think
>> > > The posted link lists the parameters that can be chosen for
>> > > display. Here's a link to just that bit of the very long page...
>> > >
>> > > https://media.dcrainmaker.com/images/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look-review-48.jpg
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Here's a link to the Garmin instructions (for the 820)...
>> > >
>> > > https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge820/EN-US/GUID-668E2816-63F2-49B6-B67D-E2DBB2CC2B6E.html
>> > >
>> > > It's kind of a convoluted process, but the results are good!
>> > >
>> > Tommy has a phobia of being wrong about anything.
>>
>> You have a phobia of knowledge of any kind. You and Scharf should get together.
>
>Sure, mr. "light line".

We must ask Tommy, it there are "Light" lines are there also "Heavy"
lines?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/21/2022 6:20 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 09:22:10 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:57:36 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I have had three cars since I recovered and every one of them had a starter failure
>>
>> I've had literal 40 cars since I first started driving (the first 15 years or so were the usual shit-boxes someone from my demographic could afford and yes, I can list them all and what happened to them). In those intervening 45 years I've had exactly one starter failure - on a 1974 buick electra 225 (I paid $500 for it). The solenoid failed, not the starter motor. We currently have a '09 honda element, '10 honda insight, and '15 toyota highlander. Before that I had a '00 volvo v90, a '01 ford taurus, and a '96 bonneville. None of them have ever had a starter failure and I don't know of anyone who had a start failure in at least the past 20 years. You must have _real_ shit luck.
>>
>>> and in every case, the AAA guy would reach down with a pole and smack the starter which would then start the car.
>>
>> That's usually a corrosion issue.
>>
>>> He said that I should drive it straight to a repair shop because it wouldn't start again because that smack broke the permanent magnets.
>>
>> Not likely. If a simply rap on the starter housing could break the magnets, there's no way it would survive years worth of vibration mechanical shock, and temperature extremes of being mounted to an engine block.
>>
>>> Upon arriving at the shop and stopping the engine indeed, it wouldn't turn over.
>>
>> Because corrosion is progressive. If they charged you for new starters every time, you were cheated.
>
> Well, yes corrosion is progressive and just as dementia is
> progressive, as Tommy so aptly demonstrates.
>

I'd have a look at the ground contacts for both battery and
starter before buying a new one. YMMV.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/21/2022 6:33 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:10:49 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/21/2022 10:04 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the
>>>> earth magnetic field.
>>>>
>>>> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
>>>
>>> On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
>>>
>>> OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
>>>
>>>
>>
>> What happens to bicycle computers when the poles shift?
>>
>> https://www.sciencealert.com/navigation-systems-finally-caught-up-with-the-mysteriously-north-pole-shift
>>
>> Aren't we supposed to light our hair on fire, throw our
>> hands in the air and run around screaming about Global
>> Magnetism Change?
>
> If I remember correctly the magnetic deviation, or "magnetic
> declination", as it is sometimes referred to, varies from place to
> place. True north, measured by a magnetic compass, ranges from about 5
> degrees west in S. Florida to 30 degrees west on the south-eastern tip
> of Africa to 26 degrees east on the southern tip of New Zealand.
>
> So there really is a "Global Magnetism Change" If "change" can
> indicant "difference" (:-)
>

Yes there's a declination correction from 'true north' as
every Boy Scout is taught in order to use compass and maps:
http://canebrake13.com/media/img/mapCompass_declination.png

Add in the movement of the poles' locations:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ec926ed000ff9a5e30fc12606dca6852-c

Add in theories that the poles periodically shift polarity:
https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012-poleReversal.html

and you have a great tool for fearmongers.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:10:10 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/21/2022 6:33 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:10:49 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/21/2022 10:04 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the
>>>>> earth magnetic field.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
>>>>
>>>> On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> What happens to bicycle computers when the poles shift?
>>>
>>> https://www.sciencealert.com/navigation-systems-finally-caught-up-with-the-mysteriously-north-pole-shift
>>>
>>> Aren't we supposed to light our hair on fire, throw our
>>> hands in the air and run around screaming about Global
>>> Magnetism Change?
>>
>> If I remember correctly the magnetic deviation, or "magnetic
>> declination", as it is sometimes referred to, varies from place to
>> place. True north, measured by a magnetic compass, ranges from about 5
>> degrees west in S. Florida to 30 degrees west on the south-eastern tip
>> of Africa to 26 degrees east on the southern tip of New Zealand.
>>
>> So there really is a "Global Magnetism Change" If "change" can
>> indicant "difference" (:-)
>>
>
>Yes there's a declination correction from 'true north' as
>every Boy Scout is taught in order to use compass and maps:
>http://canebrake13.com/media/img/mapCompass_declination.png
>
>Add in the movement of the poles' locations:
>https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ec926ed000ff9a5e30fc12606dca6852-c
>
>Add in theories that the poles periodically shift polarity:
>https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012-poleReversal.html
>
>and you have a great tool for fearmongers.

Sort of like Chicken Little and "The sky is falling" (:-) Or maybe
"voter fraud" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/21/2022 6:54 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
> Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>>>>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>>>>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>>>>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>>>>>>> madly toward the finish line.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to
>>>>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was
>>>>>> talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go
>>>>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars
>>>>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I
>>>>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk
>>>>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
>>>>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
>>>>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
>>>>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>>>>>
>>>>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
>>>>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
>>>>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>>>>>
>>>>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>>>>
>>>> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM
>>>> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a
>>>> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress
>>>> as rapidly as electronics.
>>>>
>>>
>>> How new?
>>> Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
>>> Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.
>>>
>>> https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
>>>
>>
>> They have both.
>>
>> The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies voltage to the
>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear” is driven by the starter
>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>
>>
>
> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix
> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>

Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
battery cable current directly to the starter motor.

Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.

Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.

Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:

https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:45:13 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/21/2022 6:54 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>> Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>> On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>>>>>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>>>>>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>>>>>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>>>>>>>> madly toward the finish line.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to
>>>>>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was
>>>>>>> talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go
>>>>>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars
>>>>>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I
>>>>>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk
>>>>>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
>>>>>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
>>>>>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
>>>>>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
>>>>>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
>>>>>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM
>>>>> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a
>>>>> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress
>>>>> as rapidly as electronics.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How new?
>>>> Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
>>>> Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.
>>>>
>>>> https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
>>>>
>>>
>>> They have both.
>>>
>>> The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies voltage to the
>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gearâ€? is driven by the starter
>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix
>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>
>
>Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
>starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
>battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>
>Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
>bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
>turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>
>Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>
>Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>
>https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif

I think that the difference is that, as you note, the so called
"Bendix" system in which rotation of the starter shaft forced the
starter pinion gear into mesh with the flywheel's gear.

More modern systems use the starter "relay" to move the starter pinion
into mesh as well as closing the "switch" to operate the starter
motor.
https://tinyurl.com/2p8etf3r
--
Cheers,

John B.

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 6:54 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>> Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>> On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>>>>>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>>>>>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>>>>>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>>>>>>>> madly toward the finish line.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to
>>>>>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was
>>>>>>> talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go
>>>>>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars
>>>>>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I
>>>>>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk
>>>>>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
>>>>>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
>>>>>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
>>>>>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
>>>>>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
>>>>>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM
>>>>> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a
>>>>> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress
>>>>> as rapidly as electronics.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How new?
>>>> Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
>>>> Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.
>>>>
>>>> https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
>>>>
>>>
>>> They have both.
>>>
>>> The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies voltage to the
>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear” is driven by the starter
>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix
>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>
>
> Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
> starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
> battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>
> Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
> bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
> turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>
> Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>
> Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>
> https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif
>

It looks to be a subtle difference. Instead of relying on the helical
spline of the Bendix drive, the starter solenoid not only makes the high
current contacts, but also forces the starter gear into the flywheel gear.

On 1/21/2022 8:02 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:45:13 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/21/2022 6:54 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>> Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>>>>>>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>>>>>>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>>>>>>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>>>>>>>>> madly toward the finish line.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to
>>>>>>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was
>>>>>>>> talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go
>>>>>>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars
>>>>>>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I
>>>>>>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk
>>>>>>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
>>>>>>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
>>>>>>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
>>>>>>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
>>>>>>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
>>>>>>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM
>>>>>> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a
>>>>>> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress
>>>>>> as rapidly as electronics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How new?
>>>>> Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
>>>>> Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They have both.
>>>>
>>>> The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies voltage to the
>>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear� is driven by the starter
>>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix
>>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>>
>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>>
>>
>> Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
>> starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
>> battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>>
>> Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
>> bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
>> turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>>
>> Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>>
>> Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>>
>> https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif
>
> I think that the difference is that, as you note, the so called
> "Bendix" system in which rotation of the starter shaft forced the
> starter pinion gear into mesh with the flywheel's gear.
>
> More modern systems use the starter "relay" to move the starter pinion
> into mesh as well as closing the "switch" to operate the starter
> motor.
> https://tinyurl.com/2p8etf3r
>

See also:
https://www.midwestequipment.com/post/relays-vs-solenoids-vs-contactors-a-comparison

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/21/2022 8:05 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 1/21/2022 6:54 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>> Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>>>>>>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>>>>>>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>>>>>>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>>>>>>>>> madly toward the finish line.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to
>>>>>>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was
>>>>>>>> talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go
>>>>>>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars
>>>>>>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I
>>>>>>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk
>>>>>>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
>>>>>>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
>>>>>>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
>>>>>>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
>>>>>>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
>>>>>>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM
>>>>>> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a
>>>>>> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress
>>>>>> as rapidly as electronics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How new?
>>>>> Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
>>>>> Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They have both.
>>>>
>>>> The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies voltage to the
>>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear” is driven by the starter
>>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix
>>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>>
>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>>
>>
>> Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
>> starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
>> battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>>
>> Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
>> bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
>> turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>>
>> Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>>
>> Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>>
>> https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif
>>
>
> It looks to be a subtle difference. Instead of relying on the helical
> spline of the Bendix drive, the starter solenoid not only makes the high
> current contacts, but also forces the starter gear into the flywheel gear.
>

Yes, subtle but all 'of a type'. Nothing we've discussed
indicates any particular problem or degradation of permanent
magnet DC starter motors.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 8:05 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> On 1/21/2022 6:54 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>> Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>>>>>>>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>>>>>>>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>>>>>>>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>>>>>>>>>> madly toward the finish line.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to
>>>>>>>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was
>>>>>>>>> talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go
>>>>>>>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars
>>>>>>>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I
>>>>>>>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk
>>>>>>>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
>>>>>>>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
>>>>>>>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
>>>>>>>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
>>>>>>>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
>>>>>>>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM
>>>>>>> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a
>>>>>>> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress
>>>>>>> as rapidly as electronics.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How new?
>>>>>> Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
>>>>>> Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They have both.
>>>>>
>>>>> The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies voltage to the
>>>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear” is driven by the starter
>>>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>>>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>>>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>>>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>>>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix
>>>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>>>
>>>
>>> Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
>>> starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
>>> battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>>>
>>> Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
>>> bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
>>> turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>>>
>>> Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>>>
>>> Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>>>
>>> https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif
>>>
>>
>> It looks to be a subtle difference. Instead of relying on the helical
>> spline of the Bendix drive, the starter solenoid not only makes the high
>> current contacts, but also forces the starter gear into the flywheel gear.
>>
>
> Yes, subtle but all 'of a type'. Nothing we've discussed
> indicates any particular problem or degradation of permanent
> magnet DC starter motors.
>

Agreed. Nothing different with respect to magnet design.

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:12:22 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/21/2022 8:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:45:13 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/21/2022 6:54 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>> Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>>>>>>>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>>>>>>>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>>>>>>>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>>>>>>>>>> madly toward the finish line.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to
>>>>>>>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was
>>>>>>>>> talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go
>>>>>>>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars
>>>>>>>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I
>>>>>>>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk
>>>>>>>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
>>>>>>>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
>>>>>>>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
>>>>>>>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
>>>>>>>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
>>>>>>>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM
>>>>>>> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a
>>>>>>> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress
>>>>>>> as rapidly as electronics.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How new?
>>>>>> Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
>>>>>> Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They have both.
>>>>>
>>>>> The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies voltage to the
>>>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gearâ€? is driven by the starter
>>>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>>>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>>>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>>>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>>>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix
>>>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>>>
>>>
>>> Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
>>> starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
>>> battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>>>
>>> Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
>>> bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
>>> turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>>>
>>> Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>>>
>>> Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>>>
>>> https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif
>>
>> I think that the difference is that, as you note, the so called
>> "Bendix" system in which rotation of the starter shaft forced the
>> starter pinion gear into mesh with the flywheel's gear.
>>
>> More modern systems use the starter "relay" to move the starter pinion
>> into mesh as well as closing the "switch" to operate the starter
>> motor.
>> https://tinyurl.com/2p8etf3r
>>
>
>See also:
>https://www.midwestequipment.com/post/relays-vs-solenoids-vs-contactors-a-comparison

That is getting very much into semantics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solenoid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactor

It probably depends on who is saying what to who. For example, I
worked for a year or so as an Interior Electrician at an Air Base and
we used Solenoid to identify any electrically operated switch and we
never used the term "contactor" for any purpose.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 9:45:19 PM UTC+1, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 2:30:30 PM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Is there a reason for this snotty remark?
> It's called sarcasm, and should be treated as such. Given the level of vitriol from a few members here (guilty as charged) it was pretty tame.

Don't you think we can do with a little less sarcasm here? I think we do.

> Like you, I appreciate the plug-n-play simplicity of the single-component solution and certainly prefer it over the magnet/reed switch with the (albeit minor) alignment issues,

That was my point. It is less complicated for most people but we get 'sarcasm' from someone who doesn't actual use it.

>but at the end of the day such advancements don't really enhance my cycling experience to any great extent. If I didn't have a cadence monitor at all it wouldn't affect my riding habits at all, so there is a certain amount of credibility with a comment like "gee, how have I survived this long without that?"

That was not the point. Someone mentioned here how the latest cadence/speed sensors work. I corrected that with a link and dang here comes Frank saying it is complicated and fool that I am I tried to explain why it isn't complicated but more simple and than we get sarcasm. The whole process pisses me off. I think I go 'visit' Jay for a while. WTF.

Lou

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 3:50:37 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 2:33 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 3:30:43 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 2:34:49 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 7:09:35 PM UTC-5, Ted Heise wrote:
> >>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:23:49 -0800 (PST),
> >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:50:59 PM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:27:52 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> And neither the 800 or 820 seem to have a display page that
> >>>>>>> gives, cadence, speed and distance. Trying to discover how
> >>>>>>> to perhaps modify the displays, I ended up in some page that
> >>>>>>> was seemingly trying to get me to ride faster than I did
> >>>>>>> last ride. And the only way I could get out of that was to
> >>>>>>> turn the unit off and then restart it.
> >>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look.html
> >>>>>> Scroll down to "Base Cycling Features" "Once you???re riding,
> >>>>>> you???ll have a number of data fields that can be displayed at
> >>>>>> any one point in time. You can set up to 10 data fields per
> >>>>>> data screen (up from eight), and have up to 3 primary data
> >>>>>> screens, in addition to map and course based screens. You can
> >>>>>> customize all of these screens and data fields however you???d
> >>>>>> like with the following information: [followed by graphic
> >>>>>> table]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Why do you run your mouth off about everything when you don't
> >>>>> understand anything?
> >>>> Tom, I think he was trying to help. The short version is that the
> >>>> displays on these Garmin devices are highly configurable. I think
> >>>> The posted link lists the parameters that can be chosen for
> >>>> display. Here's a link to just that bit of the very long page...
> >>>>
> >>>> https://media.dcrainmaker.com/images/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look-review-48.jpg
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Here's a link to the Garmin instructions (for the 820)...
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge820/EN-US/GUID-668E2816-63F2-49B6-B67D-E2DBB2CC2B6E.html
> >>>>
> >>>> It's kind of a convoluted process, but the results are good!
> >>>>
> >>> Tommy has a phobia of being wrong about anything.
> >>
> >> You have a phobia of knowledge of any kind. You and Scharf should get together.
> >
> > Sure, mr. "light line".
> >
> 'Light line' ?? Isn't that a skinner serving of cocaine than
> usual, as in 'Hey man, that's a light line' ?

That's one application (thanks for the trip down memory lane btw :) ). However, calling fiber optic wires "light lines" isn't.

> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:03:29 PM UTC-5, Ted Heise wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:43:08 -0000 (UTC),
> Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> > Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> > >>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
> > >>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
> > >>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
> > >>>
> > >> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour. Popped
> > >> it off the handlebar halfway home, tossed it and never
> > >> reconsidered.
> > >
> > I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so I
> > don???t worry I???m going to be late, I *hate* being late!
> >
> > I like to know my speed and the distance I???ve done. I find
> > the temperature interesting though to be honest not needed,
> > same goes for my altitude.
> >
> > I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know how
> > much more there is! The time up it, I???m rarely bothered by.
> >
> > The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it is,
> > is genuinely useful as I can read the text if I wish, and stop
> > to answer the phone or ignore it, as it???s junk etc. plus
> > having had life changing injury gives my wife knowledge that I
> > can be contacted.
> Oh that's a good point. I biffed last fall, and my wife got a
> text message of an incident telling her the specific location.
> She was getting into the car to come scrape me off the pavement
> when I managed to connect via phone and tell her I could make it
> home on my own.
> --
Don't know if you're seen it, there's an apple watch commercial on TV right now that is selling exactly that feature:
https://www.ispot.tv/ad/qeWo/apple-watch-series-7-bobs-911-call